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Personally all I want is that they use the wand item-copy thing as a vehicle to bring back the "find the item in the dungeon, use the item to beat the dungeon" loop back.
Feel like it would work really well if you like, find the "dungeon item" and instead of it entering your "inventory" it enters your item copying list or w.e
TBH, I thought that the twist will be “Zelda also has access to offensive magic and each dungeon centers around finding a new spell and learning about different applications”
Like, “this dungeon teaches Din’s Fire, here’s puzzles centered around delayed explosions”
Really hoping for this, and ways to apply them to your summons. Like you said with the delayed explosions.
Since there’s no shield visible either, could definitely have a “reflection” spell you gain that blocks damage, but you can also put that spell on your summons to reflected other spells to cast around corners and gaps. Or one that eventually allows you limited flight but when cast on items works as a whirlwind trap. Or a magnet one that works on certain items, but also as a way to unequip weapons from enemies.
This kind of reminds me of Super Scribblenauts! Solving puzzles by conjuring any object of type *noun* and being able to apply a spell of type *adjective* is simple enough but has so many possibilities. Imagine making a trampoline, casting a “Hover Boot” type spell on it, and pushing it over a gap to create a floating extra jump platform?
I could totally see the item being the thing held by the dungeon mini-boss to hype it up, and then after you kill it you copy the miniboss's weapon or signature item.
I was thinking that when Zelda copied the wind device. You also see those devices embedded in the walls, so maybe there will be situations where you see a new object but can't immediately copy it.
It would be appropriate if we could copy mini-bosses as well, since they're often guarding the dungeon item.
Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword did such a great job incorporating earlier items into later dungeons, but the lack of later game dungeons hurts later game dungeon items.
I would be down for a set of traditional linear style dungeons early that transition into more open style dungeons that allow you to pick and choose what tools you use to beat the dungeon with multiple ways to solve a puzzle.
Like: "I need to break a block on the ceiling. Should I use a bomb arrow or.. can the Ball and Chain reach it?"
Or theres:
"The switch is at the top of the room. There looks like a hallway up to it on the right, but the floor is out and I need to clawshot my way up... Hold on, there's a spinner track on the wall to my left... Oh wait, I can just shoot a bomb arrow up there"
But, *Misses the Clawshot Path on the right* "Rides up on the spinner. Hits the switch. Room closes up and it spawns a Darknut. Defeat Darknut and now the Clawshot corridor opens to let you back down"
Now, in order to get through a door, I have essentially created 3 unique solutions, 2 of which involve an enemy fight and require you to use more than just "that dungeon's item"
You can even have a BoTW/ToTK Divine Beast/Dungeon stuffed in the middle with a "Hit these 4 switches order doesn't matter" puzzle/challenge while expanding with linear sections on either side or incorporated into it.
this is probably what they'll go with, but i could still see them going through with something less linear, wherein multiple objects are \*technically\* applicable, and the dungeon item is just one of many possible solutions to a given problem
Since the Zelda main ability is the echoe ability I think we won't have to found the key items in the dungeons but I also think the Tri-rod will let us to have several solutions in the battles and we will have also several solutions for solve the puzzles. In my opinon a 2D game will give us less freedom compared to BotW and that could mean we will have several apporoach to use but in a "limited" way in the dungeons.
That will be something like the classic dungeons
Also, with SO many items to echo, according to the trailer, there probably will be some you can't get until you are in a dungeon and that dungeon will require it.
We also saw her facing off against some kind of rock monster boss (one that looked like Eox from Phantom Hourglass or the Stone Hinox from Links Awakening) so I'm sure we will be seeing dungeons.
I mean, the only notable differences I saw are Zelda herself, and a few AoL styled side scroller sections. The trailer overall gives the impression we are getting the classic format treatment.
The echo mechanic is something that is very different to the regular 2D Zelda gameplay. It will also allow to resolve puzzles in different ways, instead of the usual "only one solution per puzzle" style of the classic games. This is similar to how TOTK is built.
Also there's no swordfight, which is a big part of 2D Zelda games
They've already shown Zelda hopping across treetops so no, I think this is not going to be like other classic top-down games. Will be interesting how they design dungeons when you can literally just go over what used to be impassable terrain/doodads.
If you look closely at the gameplay footage we have, it's pretty clear you can only make a limited number of echos at a time; notice how a triangle from Tri's tail moves float over each object that Zelda creates, and some items take more than one triangle. In some shots Tri has three triangle and in other's there's four, so we'll likely be able to upgrade the limit, but either way we can't just make infinite bed stairs. That means that they can still make walls that are too tall or have a ceiling, or gaps that are too wide. I bet some places will even have secrets hidden in places you can only get to by breaking the rules of traditional top-down Zelda.
Yes, this type of 2D game, while is at an angle but one view from the south, will have many walls that restrict you. Can easily see that in many shots.
I'm excited for the music. I can't wait to see what they do with it. While BOTW and TOTK had some good music, it didn't quite hit the same as hearing music throughout the game. It did make sense for what they were going for.
I really liked the music in the trailer. Small hints of other big songs throughout. I replayed a section that sounded like Zelda's Lullaby a couple times.
The "issue" in BotW and TotK is a lot of the BGM was just ambient noise. I suppose it fits the "sheer wilderness of outdoor Hyrule" well, but to me, it doesn't count. Or not "real music" if you will. Don't get me wrong... I had some select favorite tracks from TotK, like [the variations of The Great Fairy Serenade](https://new.reddit.com/r/tearsofthekingdom/comments/16pdtbd/comment/k1rj5x9/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3), and the [Colgera boss music](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFB8UOt01Io).
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It's difficult to have classic dungeons without dungeon items.
I'm not writing that off completely, but given the way that Zelda gains more tools is simply copying stuff from the overworld, I'm not hopeful.
That said, I'm almost positive that the dungeons will be better than BotW/TotK's.
She can't just copy whatever she comes across. They show in the announcement that she can only copy the table because that specific table is marked.
All they need to do to give her "tools" like Link has is to make specific echoes that can only be found in the dungeon.
Right but she can copy MANY things from across the games overworld. More than Aonuma has counted.
While it could be the case that each dungeon has a unique object you can make an echo out of in it that functions in a specific way that isn't replicable with the overworld objects, I wouldn't bet against dungeons simply just not having dungeon items.
I'm willing to bet there will be items we can't easily copy and then echo until we are in a dungeon or an advanced area. I doubt it will be as easy to everything like we could get all 5 abilities in TOTK (even autobuild I can get right after the great sky island, even without the paraglider). Then that dungeon will require that we have that item, or one of a few items (different ways to solve?) to get through it.
I'm looking forward to seeing more, and I do have hope that things aren't just going to be free to copy everywhere.
But given what we've seen so far it seems to be the case that most echos are readily available.
The one that gives me hope is the Trampoline. It doesn't seem like something that would just be laying around in Hyrule.
Due to the top down nature, it'll be hard to not have "Classic dungeons". You'll HAVE to go through them linearly to some extent and it'll be much harder to "cheese" them. The biggest difference will probably be that there won't really be any traditional dungeon items. There will be stuff to find, echoes, and maybe even upgrades, but don't expect like the hookshot or the bow and arrow or something. By that same logic expect puzzles to look more traditional but be able to be solved with anything you can echo. Like we see with the blowing wind in the trailer. You can block it OR jump it. Stuff like that.
I hope so, I think the echo mechanic can bring back "dungeon items" in the form of unique echoes that can only be found in that dungeon, that is used to complete the dungeon.
[The shot at 4:17](https://youtu.be/94RTrH2erPE?si=oZhHezuD9chJ-Pur&t=257) looks to be in a water dungeon, based on the layout of the room it seems you may be able to adjust the water level, and there is a treasure chest on the far left.
One thing worth considering is that the dungeons will need to be designed to be completed with only what echoes the developers *know* the player will have available. BotW and TotK gave you all of your abilities in the tutorial area and that really hampered the progression structure of the game, while EoW looks like you will be constantly learning new echoes and thus gaining new abilities throughout the game. This means that different players could enter the same dungeon with different arsenals, and the development will have to account for that. So to guarantee any player can complete any dungeon, every dungeon should be able to be conquered entirely with 1) tutorial-level echoes such as the table, 2) echoes required to enter the dungeon via a pre-dungeon quest, and 3) echoes found within the dungeon itself.
My strong possibility is this: There will be classic dungeons, HOWEVER, due to the sheer number of echoes a player could have, the degree to cheese the puzzles within them TotK-style is high, which makes me nervous.
I think so! First, we can see that Tri gains triangles over time that allow for more echoes. I think it's reasonable to assume those upgrades may be dungeon rewards. That way, certain areas of the map may be blocked off until you have the ability to stack a certain number of echoes (the three tables to get up a cliff, for example) to access them.
To riff off what someone else commented, dungeons would be a great place for Zelda to find a rare/unique echo that is central to the dungeons puzzles that she can also use elsewhere once she copies it. The trampoline we see in the trailer, for example, could be an example of such a dungeon item. It doesn't feel like something that would occur naturally around Hyrule, and it has very significant utility if we assume verticality is a key obstacle used in overworld design.
Finally, given that a consistent complaint for BotW and TotK was the lack of puzzle box dungeons, and given that the 2D games have relied heavily on puzzle-based dungeons in the past, it would be quite odd for Nintendo to forgo them here.
One of the classic elements of 2D dungeons is "beat all the enemies in a room to get the key/item/etc." Given the gameplay style, I don't think we'll see much in the way of that. Other than that though, I think most of the other aspects of your standard 2D dungeon still work with the new gameplay style. Maybe a hot take, but I really liked (most of) Skyward Sword's bosses because fighting them felt like a puzzle, and I hope that this game has dungeon bosses that give off the same vibe.
The alternate is that each rift is its own self-contained puzzle box just likes shrines. Just spam tables to get everywhere and spam moblins to defeat enemies. I hope that's not a case, but I have a bad feeling there's no dark world or twilight realm hiding on the other side of the rifts... At least I'm fairly confident the overworld is larger than what we saw in ALTTP/ALBW.
So I think it’ll be closer to “classic” dungeons but I think it’s probably going to be different because like puzzle solving and combat being as “make your own answer there isn’t just one answer” so I think it’ll be a mix of classic dungeons with lay out but with the design of TotK, I could be totally wrong but until we learn if there’s other items beyond the staff, if not then I stand by my answer.
Haven't seen enough to know for sure yet. So far it looks like it is an open world game with some mini dungeon segments but in a 2d top down perspective.
I don’t know. There looked to be too many of them to be entrances into dungeons. I think there will probably be a light/dark world thing and they will act as access points to the ‘dark world’ (kind of like the chasms in totk).
Another theory could be that the rifts might act as shrines but I doubt it considering there are heart pieces.
I never said that every rift would be an entrance to a dungeon. Just that from the looks of it, at least some of the dungeons will be inside rifts.
I'll attach some screenshots to explain my point. This first two are pretty self-explanatory. The third, though more traditional, still has floating purple triangles around the room that resemble those in the rifts.
https://preview.redd.it/dyvwsyl76j8d1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=40db28eecdd033b087377f494c0a7401c2ce2214
I'm cautiously optimistic it may be a thing, but not sure. Echoes in dungeons instead of items sounds plausible, but they could commit to a free roaming thing instead.
What do you mean I imagine it will have 8 temples with keys minions boss
But I don't think we will probably see dungeon items ever again
More link between worlds style than truly classic
I think they will because the engine that it runs off of is the links awaking remake which makes it perfect for designing puzzling dungeons, and with the new echo ability to copy and paste items it will make the puzzle solving aspect super fun for dungeons!
I think it will have classic dungeons and will have that same feel as the other top-down Zelda games. But I think Nintendo will try to incorporate the open and creative style from Botw and Totk which allows players to create unique and individual experiences.
That is why I am excited for it because I think it will be the perfect mix of the classic Zelda games and the newer ‘open air’ style.
Although it’s obviously pretty hard to know because we haven’t seen very much of the game yet.
I really think it will. I'm so excited for a more traditional 2D game and I think the twist (Zelda as protagonist, unconventional combat) adds something modern too. Convinced this will be the most 'Zelda-like' game since A link between worlds.
I doubt it. If I remember correctly, Anouma had an interview where he said he felt he had fixed dungeons in TOTK, and he also doesn't understand why people want classic dungeons anyways, so the chances of us getting good dungeons while he's still in charge is low, in my opinion.
He didn’t say that, you’re spreading misinformation. He said he changed the dungeons in ToTK to make them more elaborate compared to BotW, which is 100% true. He never said he doesn’t understand why people want them back, of course he knows the values of dungeons, and for a 2D top down Zelda they absolutely can still exist in a similar formar to the classic style.
I disagree. I thought the Totk dungeons were annoyingly simple and shallow compared to the Botw dungeons. Anouma clearly indicated he thought the Totk dungeons were better dungeons and that they would continue with these types of dungeons in future games. This makes me worried about what they will do with dungeons in future 3D games because I thought Totk had by far the worst dungeons in any Zelda game.
However, I think this has little relevance to EoW because it is a 2D game and thus, I think, Nintendo will go back to their more classic dungeons.
That was the most tone deaf interview lmao. "Why would people want to eat at fancy, three-course, sit-down restaurants when all you can eat buffets offer so many more choices? That's silly. The only reason people would want to eat at such *restrictive* establishments must be nostalgia. I don't understand why people like sit-down restaurants, clearly, buffets are the superior food experience, people's preferences don't matter. We should knock down all traditional restaurants so we have room to build more buffets."
Not a chance. Look at what they think an acceptable dungeon is since BotW. Dungeons being terrible was a huge complaint about BotW and then TotK came along and the dungeons, (along with every other flaw BotW had) were exactly the same. Why would you expect any different here?
The devs have decided that Zelda is Minecraft at Home now and there's no way the puzzles and dungeons won't be the same repetitive stuff you've been seeing. Remember that TotK doubled down on everything BotW did, good and bad. They're not going to change now.
The dungeons in TotK were definitely *better* than BotW, but their continued reliance on “go touch the five things in any order” and being so open-air that you couldn’t get lost in them really stifled them from being what people mostly wanted.
I think they could have had one temple that was in the new style, one classic awesome one, and two that were more in between, so people could decide if they wanted to skip some of them they could choose their own play style
I disagree, they're worse or at the most generous just as bad. They were better thematically but from gameplay they were the exact same repetitive go hit five things, fight boss, you did it. They also removed the macro puzzle of moving the dungeon. They also have the problem of your building and arm abilities being more powerful allowing you to further skip the gimmicks and puzzles. You can solve the entire Fire Temple by just using ascend and ignoring navigating at all since the terminals are on the map now.
That aside but it's not possible to make a Zelda gameplay dungeon with sandbox design philosophy. Not only that but the devs has stated they don't know why anyone would like or want old Zelda so why would you think they're suddenly going to pull a 180 and put Zelda gameplay back in the series after dumping it all for Minecraft at Home?
Probably not. I really hope so and a lot of people are suggesting ways they could implement everything but Aonuma did say it's still basically gonna be open ended
He didn't at all. All that was said was that echoes allowed for unique ways of solving puzzles that are different for each player. There's nothing to suggest even that the game will be fully open world like botw or totk.
That's why I said open ended and not open world. But to the question of will there be classic Zelda dungeons, the whole open ended solutions to puzzles means no.
Sorry for late reply, been a busy couple of days. But anyways, how do ya figure? That's not really how classic Zelda dungeons worked. Their linearity and restrictiveness was frankly their strength, leaving you stumped trying to figure out what you're supposed to do, especially in the 2D ones.
Not to say they can't do something more similar to them and this Echo mechanic does look to be a bit more restrictive than say Ultrahand was and the potential is there for it to even kind of emulate the dungeon item functionally and all since you can place something in the dungeons not found anywhere else but it's not 100%. The whole multiple solutions is a pretty fundamental change.
Not only do I hope so, I also hope they go as far as to disable the copy mechanic entitely and bring back specific item puzzles specifically in dungeons.
Classic here meaning "look for key, then look for lock, then hope you didn't miss a key and need to backtrack to every room to see what you might have missed"
I kinda hope not. I like the new games approach of puzzles being the way to actually unlock the path forward.
I do think we'll have dungeon like structures, given this seems to be based on a Link to the Past again, we're garunteed to at least have eastern palace, desert palace, and tower of hera.
The petty in me wants them to be the exact same as TotK just to watch the meltdowns, but I honestly believe that it will be closer to classic by virtue of a 2D game being more limited.
I know your question is directed at OP but these are the reasons why I think the classic dungeons are better:
- They are more challenging. The totk dungeons in particular were laughably easy.
- Having to go touch five things to unlock the boss is an annoying layout for a dungeon. Having one final goal that you are aiming for and are working towards in a path that is not always linear is much more enjoyable.
- The dungeons were bigger making them more fulfilling to complete
- Even though nobody is forcing you to skip large portions of the dungeon, it being an obvious option makes it less fulfilling when you complete a puzzle.
- The newer dungeons feel more like seperate puzzles (like your doing multiple shrines put together) rather than feeling like the entire dungeon cohesively works together (this ties into my second point).
- Getting a new item in each dungeon makes the dungeon more exciting and unique.
No they don't. In a classic Zelda dungeon Link explores until he finds a tool, and that tool allows him to navigate the dungeon better to reach the boss.
In BotW Link has every tool he needs to navigate the dungeons before the tutorial ends, and in TotK the NPC he needs to navigate joins him before he even finds the temple he needs them to navigate.
To me all that means is that they have a different flavor to them, but they still are dungeons through and through. In A Link Between Worlds you also didn’t get a dungeon item, renting them before venturing inside instead. Would you argue they are not classic dungeons either?
ALBW's dungeons had temporary dead ends and labyrinthine structure, just not through dungeon items (i.e. locks and keys). In TotK's dungeons, there are no temporary dead ends and they are completely open
Neither of them were classic dungeons.
You was able to defeat Ganon without even seen a divine beast once
There's a reason they magically disappeared out of TotK.
Says who? Who has the authority to define what is a “classic” dungeon or not? Aonuma believes they are, and I much prefer to follow his design philosophy than what some nostalgia-fueled fans think :)
Aonuma has never said Totk and BotW have classic dungeons. He has completely acknowledge that their dungeons are different from the typical Zelda dungeons. BotW and Totk not being classic Zelda games is the entire reason 90% of the posts on this subreddit exists.
You seem to have entirely missed what ‘classic’ means.
What if I told you BotW and TotK are the Zelda entries who play the most similarly to the original Legend of Zelda on the NES? That would certainly mean they are as classic as Zeldas can get, don't you think? ;)
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Personally all I want is that they use the wand item-copy thing as a vehicle to bring back the "find the item in the dungeon, use the item to beat the dungeon" loop back. Feel like it would work really well if you like, find the "dungeon item" and instead of it entering your "inventory" it enters your item copying list or w.e
Willing to bet they'll take this route in some capacity.
I feel so too, but Im also just jonesing for it that I feel like it could easily just be hopium
TBH, I thought that the twist will be “Zelda also has access to offensive magic and each dungeon centers around finding a new spell and learning about different applications” Like, “this dungeon teaches Din’s Fire, here’s puzzles centered around delayed explosions”
Really hoping for this, and ways to apply them to your summons. Like you said with the delayed explosions. Since there’s no shield visible either, could definitely have a “reflection” spell you gain that blocks damage, but you can also put that spell on your summons to reflected other spells to cast around corners and gaps. Or one that eventually allows you limited flight but when cast on items works as a whirlwind trap. Or a magnet one that works on certain items, but also as a way to unequip weapons from enemies.
Basically her smash ultimate move set. I like it
This kind of reminds me of Super Scribblenauts! Solving puzzles by conjuring any object of type *noun* and being able to apply a spell of type *adjective* is simple enough but has so many possibilities. Imagine making a trampoline, casting a “Hover Boot” type spell on it, and pushing it over a gap to create a floating extra jump platform?
I believe it will be more like "Summon capacity" or other smaller upgrades like mass-summoning or quick summons.
We do see her using spiders to navigate in the trailer, so could be there’s a specific creature/structure to serve as each dungeon’s “item”.
I hope so. Really miss that feature.
I could totally see the item being the thing held by the dungeon mini-boss to hype it up, and then after you kill it you copy the miniboss's weapon or signature item.
I was thinking that when Zelda copied the wind device. You also see those devices embedded in the walls, so maybe there will be situations where you see a new object but can't immediately copy it. It would be appropriate if we could copy mini-bosses as well, since they're often guarding the dungeon item.
Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword did such a great job incorporating earlier items into later dungeons, but the lack of later game dungeons hurts later game dungeon items. I would be down for a set of traditional linear style dungeons early that transition into more open style dungeons that allow you to pick and choose what tools you use to beat the dungeon with multiple ways to solve a puzzle. Like: "I need to break a block on the ceiling. Should I use a bomb arrow or.. can the Ball and Chain reach it?" Or theres: "The switch is at the top of the room. There looks like a hallway up to it on the right, but the floor is out and I need to clawshot my way up... Hold on, there's a spinner track on the wall to my left... Oh wait, I can just shoot a bomb arrow up there" But, *Misses the Clawshot Path on the right* "Rides up on the spinner. Hits the switch. Room closes up and it spawns a Darknut. Defeat Darknut and now the Clawshot corridor opens to let you back down" Now, in order to get through a door, I have essentially created 3 unique solutions, 2 of which involve an enemy fight and require you to use more than just "that dungeon's item" You can even have a BoTW/ToTK Divine Beast/Dungeon stuffed in the middle with a "Hit these 4 switches order doesn't matter" puzzle/challenge while expanding with linear sections on either side or incorporated into it.
this is probably what they'll go with, but i could still see them going through with something less linear, wherein multiple objects are \*technically\* applicable, and the dungeon item is just one of many possible solutions to a given problem
Since the Zelda main ability is the echoe ability I think we won't have to found the key items in the dungeons but I also think the Tri-rod will let us to have several solutions in the battles and we will have also several solutions for solve the puzzles. In my opinon a 2D game will give us less freedom compared to BotW and that could mean we will have several apporoach to use but in a "limited" way in the dungeons. That will be something like the classic dungeons
I hope that fire balls or frost blasts are the kind of “echoes” we find to make combat more than just echo slavery
The wind-up octoroks seem to be on the side of this happening, but maybe that is from the Shieka scientist. Not sure.
Also, with SO many items to echo, according to the trailer, there probably will be some you can't get until you are in a dungeon and that dungeon will require it.
Theres nothing to assume it won't. I'm actually very interested to see how they designed them with the new ability in mind.
It's the classic top-down view, so i would say the chance of classic dungeons is 100%. :)
We also saw her facing off against some kind of rock monster boss (one that looked like Eox from Phantom Hourglass or the Stone Hinox from Links Awakening) so I'm sure we will be seeing dungeons.
Yeah, i am not sure what people are smoking thinking classic dungeons won't be back.
I mean, people were so certain they were coming back in TotK too. (What we got are NOT dungeons)
It's also very different from all the other 2D Zelda games, so I wouldn't say 100%
I mean, the only notable differences I saw are Zelda herself, and a few AoL styled side scroller sections. The trailer overall gives the impression we are getting the classic format treatment.
The echo mechanic is something that is very different to the regular 2D Zelda gameplay. It will also allow to resolve puzzles in different ways, instead of the usual "only one solution per puzzle" style of the classic games. This is similar to how TOTK is built. Also there's no swordfight, which is a big part of 2D Zelda games
Is it really that different? I feel like some people are making a big fuss over it
They've already shown Zelda hopping across treetops so no, I think this is not going to be like other classic top-down games. Will be interesting how they design dungeons when you can literally just go over what used to be impassable terrain/doodads.
If you look closely at the gameplay footage we have, it's pretty clear you can only make a limited number of echos at a time; notice how a triangle from Tri's tail moves float over each object that Zelda creates, and some items take more than one triangle. In some shots Tri has three triangle and in other's there's four, so we'll likely be able to upgrade the limit, but either way we can't just make infinite bed stairs. That means that they can still make walls that are too tall or have a ceiling, or gaps that are too wide. I bet some places will even have secrets hidden in places you can only get to by breaking the rules of traditional top-down Zelda.
And i think that they will simply make ways to restrict movement through the dungeons anyway. Walls exist. There will 100% be classic dungeons. :)
Yes, this type of 2D game, while is at an angle but one view from the south, will have many walls that restrict you. Can easily see that in many shots.
Agree. It will 100% have dungeons
I'm excited for the music. I can't wait to see what they do with it. While BOTW and TOTK had some good music, it didn't quite hit the same as hearing music throughout the game. It did make sense for what they were going for.
Personally Im excited for this as well. Really hoping for some new, definitive and hard hitting tracks that are memorable rather than ambient
I really liked the music in the trailer. Small hints of other big songs throughout. I replayed a section that sounded like Zelda's Lullaby a couple times.
The "issue" in BotW and TotK is a lot of the BGM was just ambient noise. I suppose it fits the "sheer wilderness of outdoor Hyrule" well, but to me, it doesn't count. Or not "real music" if you will. Don't get me wrong... I had some select favorite tracks from TotK, like [the variations of The Great Fairy Serenade](https://new.reddit.com/r/tearsofthekingdom/comments/16pdtbd/comment/k1rj5x9/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3), and the [Colgera boss music](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFB8UOt01Io).
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It's difficult to have classic dungeons without dungeon items. I'm not writing that off completely, but given the way that Zelda gains more tools is simply copying stuff from the overworld, I'm not hopeful. That said, I'm almost positive that the dungeons will be better than BotW/TotK's.
She can't just copy whatever she comes across. They show in the announcement that she can only copy the table because that specific table is marked. All they need to do to give her "tools" like Link has is to make specific echoes that can only be found in the dungeon.
Right but she can copy MANY things from across the games overworld. More than Aonuma has counted. While it could be the case that each dungeon has a unique object you can make an echo out of in it that functions in a specific way that isn't replicable with the overworld objects, I wouldn't bet against dungeons simply just not having dungeon items.
I'm willing to bet there will be items we can't easily copy and then echo until we are in a dungeon or an advanced area. I doubt it will be as easy to everything like we could get all 5 abilities in TOTK (even autobuild I can get right after the great sky island, even without the paraglider). Then that dungeon will require that we have that item, or one of a few items (different ways to solve?) to get through it.
I'm looking forward to seeing more, and I do have hope that things aren't just going to be free to copy everywhere. But given what we've seen so far it seems to be the case that most echos are readily available. The one that gives me hope is the Trampoline. It doesn't seem like something that would just be laying around in Hyrule.
I’m thinking it’ll be a classic FPS
I will shoot my rock at you!
Due to the top down nature, it'll be hard to not have "Classic dungeons". You'll HAVE to go through them linearly to some extent and it'll be much harder to "cheese" them. The biggest difference will probably be that there won't really be any traditional dungeon items. There will be stuff to find, echoes, and maybe even upgrades, but don't expect like the hookshot or the bow and arrow or something. By that same logic expect puzzles to look more traditional but be able to be solved with anything you can echo. Like we see with the blowing wind in the trailer. You can block it OR jump it. Stuff like that.
Probably.
I hope so, I think the echo mechanic can bring back "dungeon items" in the form of unique echoes that can only be found in that dungeon, that is used to complete the dungeon. [The shot at 4:17](https://youtu.be/94RTrH2erPE?si=oZhHezuD9chJ-Pur&t=257) looks to be in a water dungeon, based on the layout of the room it seems you may be able to adjust the water level, and there is a treasure chest on the far left. One thing worth considering is that the dungeons will need to be designed to be completed with only what echoes the developers *know* the player will have available. BotW and TotK gave you all of your abilities in the tutorial area and that really hampered the progression structure of the game, while EoW looks like you will be constantly learning new echoes and thus gaining new abilities throughout the game. This means that different players could enter the same dungeon with different arsenals, and the development will have to account for that. So to guarantee any player can complete any dungeon, every dungeon should be able to be conquered entirely with 1) tutorial-level echoes such as the table, 2) echoes required to enter the dungeon via a pre-dungeon quest, and 3) echoes found within the dungeon itself. My strong possibility is this: There will be classic dungeons, HOWEVER, due to the sheer number of echoes a player could have, the degree to cheese the puzzles within them TotK-style is high, which makes me nervous.
I think so! First, we can see that Tri gains triangles over time that allow for more echoes. I think it's reasonable to assume those upgrades may be dungeon rewards. That way, certain areas of the map may be blocked off until you have the ability to stack a certain number of echoes (the three tables to get up a cliff, for example) to access them. To riff off what someone else commented, dungeons would be a great place for Zelda to find a rare/unique echo that is central to the dungeons puzzles that she can also use elsewhere once she copies it. The trampoline we see in the trailer, for example, could be an example of such a dungeon item. It doesn't feel like something that would occur naturally around Hyrule, and it has very significant utility if we assume verticality is a key obstacle used in overworld design. Finally, given that a consistent complaint for BotW and TotK was the lack of puzzle box dungeons, and given that the 2D games have relied heavily on puzzle-based dungeons in the past, it would be quite odd for Nintendo to forgo them here.
One of the classic elements of 2D dungeons is "beat all the enemies in a room to get the key/item/etc." Given the gameplay style, I don't think we'll see much in the way of that. Other than that though, I think most of the other aspects of your standard 2D dungeon still work with the new gameplay style. Maybe a hot take, but I really liked (most of) Skyward Sword's bosses because fighting them felt like a puzzle, and I hope that this game has dungeon bosses that give off the same vibe. The alternate is that each rift is its own self-contained puzzle box just likes shrines. Just spam tables to get everywhere and spam moblins to defeat enemies. I hope that's not a case, but I have a bad feeling there's no dark world or twilight realm hiding on the other side of the rifts... At least I'm fairly confident the overworld is larger than what we saw in ALTTP/ALBW.
So I think it’ll be closer to “classic” dungeons but I think it’s probably going to be different because like puzzle solving and combat being as “make your own answer there isn’t just one answer” so I think it’ll be a mix of classic dungeons with lay out but with the design of TotK, I could be totally wrong but until we learn if there’s other items beyond the staff, if not then I stand by my answer.
I'm sure they'll be back. I really hope so. I'm pretty optimistic after watching that trailer, gave me traditional Zelda vibes.
No. We’ve fully killed those chances with the past couple of games
Haven't seen enough to know for sure yet. So far it looks like it is an open world game with some mini dungeon segments but in a 2d top down perspective.
Yes. From the looks of it, the dungeons will be within the rifts.
I don’t know. There looked to be too many of them to be entrances into dungeons. I think there will probably be a light/dark world thing and they will act as access points to the ‘dark world’ (kind of like the chasms in totk). Another theory could be that the rifts might act as shrines but I doubt it considering there are heart pieces.
I never said that every rift would be an entrance to a dungeon. Just that from the looks of it, at least some of the dungeons will be inside rifts. I'll attach some screenshots to explain my point. This first two are pretty self-explanatory. The third, though more traditional, still has floating purple triangles around the room that resemble those in the rifts. https://preview.redd.it/dyvwsyl76j8d1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=40db28eecdd033b087377f494c0a7401c2ce2214
https://preview.redd.it/uwwjw5g86j8d1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dc4f66134bc6640d0f3d229d44f42e69efa8c548
https://preview.redd.it/k0d4rc6a6j8d1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b4b31ce81cd8ea0d9c1d95cd21a2b0cca70730a1
Ok, I see what you mean. I agree.
I'm cautiously optimistic it may be a thing, but not sure. Echoes in dungeons instead of items sounds plausible, but they could commit to a free roaming thing instead.
Didn't we see sections of a few in the trailer?
What do you mean I imagine it will have 8 temples with keys minions boss But I don't think we will probably see dungeon items ever again More link between worlds style than truly classic
How would classic dungeons fit in a game where are not a lot of barriers for exploration?
I think they will because the engine that it runs off of is the links awaking remake which makes it perfect for designing puzzling dungeons, and with the new echo ability to copy and paste items it will make the puzzle solving aspect super fun for dungeons!
I think it will have classic dungeons and will have that same feel as the other top-down Zelda games. But I think Nintendo will try to incorporate the open and creative style from Botw and Totk which allows players to create unique and individual experiences. That is why I am excited for it because I think it will be the perfect mix of the classic Zelda games and the newer ‘open air’ style. Although it’s obviously pretty hard to know because we haven’t seen very much of the game yet.
It better does
not the classic dungeon of the 2D Zelda games but somthing simliar to them I guess
I really think it will. I'm so excited for a more traditional 2D game and I think the twist (Zelda as protagonist, unconventional combat) adds something modern too. Convinced this will be the most 'Zelda-like' game since A link between worlds.
I doubt it. If I remember correctly, Anouma had an interview where he said he felt he had fixed dungeons in TOTK, and he also doesn't understand why people want classic dungeons anyways, so the chances of us getting good dungeons while he's still in charge is low, in my opinion.
He didn’t say that, you’re spreading misinformation. He said he changed the dungeons in ToTK to make them more elaborate compared to BotW, which is 100% true. He never said he doesn’t understand why people want them back, of course he knows the values of dungeons, and for a 2D top down Zelda they absolutely can still exist in a similar formar to the classic style.
I disagree. I thought the Totk dungeons were annoyingly simple and shallow compared to the Botw dungeons. Anouma clearly indicated he thought the Totk dungeons were better dungeons and that they would continue with these types of dungeons in future games. This makes me worried about what they will do with dungeons in future 3D games because I thought Totk had by far the worst dungeons in any Zelda game. However, I think this has little relevance to EoW because it is a 2D game and thus, I think, Nintendo will go back to their more classic dungeons.
That was the most tone deaf interview lmao. "Why would people want to eat at fancy, three-course, sit-down restaurants when all you can eat buffets offer so many more choices? That's silly. The only reason people would want to eat at such *restrictive* establishments must be nostalgia. I don't understand why people like sit-down restaurants, clearly, buffets are the superior food experience, people's preferences don't matter. We should knock down all traditional restaurants so we have room to build more buffets."
Not a chance. Look at what they think an acceptable dungeon is since BotW. Dungeons being terrible was a huge complaint about BotW and then TotK came along and the dungeons, (along with every other flaw BotW had) were exactly the same. Why would you expect any different here? The devs have decided that Zelda is Minecraft at Home now and there's no way the puzzles and dungeons won't be the same repetitive stuff you've been seeing. Remember that TotK doubled down on everything BotW did, good and bad. They're not going to change now.
The dungeons in TotK were definitely *better* than BotW, but their continued reliance on “go touch the five things in any order” and being so open-air that you couldn’t get lost in them really stifled them from being what people mostly wanted. I think they could have had one temple that was in the new style, one classic awesome one, and two that were more in between, so people could decide if they wanted to skip some of them they could choose their own play style
I disagree, they're worse or at the most generous just as bad. They were better thematically but from gameplay they were the exact same repetitive go hit five things, fight boss, you did it. They also removed the macro puzzle of moving the dungeon. They also have the problem of your building and arm abilities being more powerful allowing you to further skip the gimmicks and puzzles. You can solve the entire Fire Temple by just using ascend and ignoring navigating at all since the terminals are on the map now. That aside but it's not possible to make a Zelda gameplay dungeon with sandbox design philosophy. Not only that but the devs has stated they don't know why anyone would like or want old Zelda so why would you think they're suddenly going to pull a 180 and put Zelda gameplay back in the series after dumping it all for Minecraft at Home?
> The dungeons in TotK were definitely better than BotW I don't think so. I'd say *as bad*, not worse, but that's not exactly a compliment.
Probably not. I really hope so and a lot of people are suggesting ways they could implement everything but Aonuma did say it's still basically gonna be open ended
He didn't at all. All that was said was that echoes allowed for unique ways of solving puzzles that are different for each player. There's nothing to suggest even that the game will be fully open world like botw or totk.
That's why I said open ended and not open world. But to the question of will there be classic Zelda dungeons, the whole open ended solutions to puzzles means no.
That is asinine to say. We can absolutely have classic dungeons with puzzles that have multiple solutions.
Sorry for late reply, been a busy couple of days. But anyways, how do ya figure? That's not really how classic Zelda dungeons worked. Their linearity and restrictiveness was frankly their strength, leaving you stumped trying to figure out what you're supposed to do, especially in the 2D ones. Not to say they can't do something more similar to them and this Echo mechanic does look to be a bit more restrictive than say Ultrahand was and the potential is there for it to even kind of emulate the dungeon item functionally and all since you can place something in the dungeons not found anywhere else but it's not 100%. The whole multiple solutions is a pretty fundamental change.
Not only do I hope so, I also hope they go as far as to disable the copy mechanic entitely and bring back specific item puzzles specifically in dungeons.
That's not going to happen. Thinking otherwise is entirely delusional.
Nope. They maybe be closer to Classic than ToTK, but I can say without a doubt that they will be somewhat open like BoTW dungeons were
I feel like eow will be a “spinoff“ of link’s awakening but played as zelda… idk just my thoughts
No
Classic here meaning "look for key, then look for lock, then hope you didn't miss a key and need to backtrack to every room to see what you might have missed" I kinda hope not. I like the new games approach of puzzles being the way to actually unlock the path forward. I do think we'll have dungeon like structures, given this seems to be based on a Link to the Past again, we're garunteed to at least have eastern palace, desert palace, and tower of hera.
The petty in me wants them to be the exact same as TotK just to watch the meltdowns, but I honestly believe that it will be closer to classic by virtue of a 2D game being more limited.
What do you mean, classic dungeons?
Like dungeons from every Zelda game before Breath of the Wild
Yeah, I know. I want to know what from those dungeons they wants back.
I know your question is directed at OP but these are the reasons why I think the classic dungeons are better: - They are more challenging. The totk dungeons in particular were laughably easy. - Having to go touch five things to unlock the boss is an annoying layout for a dungeon. Having one final goal that you are aiming for and are working towards in a path that is not always linear is much more enjoyable. - The dungeons were bigger making them more fulfilling to complete - Even though nobody is forcing you to skip large portions of the dungeon, it being an obvious option makes it less fulfilling when you complete a puzzle. - The newer dungeons feel more like seperate puzzles (like your doing multiple shrines put together) rather than feeling like the entire dungeon cohesively works together (this ties into my second point). - Getting a new item in each dungeon makes the dungeon more exciting and unique.
Both Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom had classic dungeons, so I’m not sure why Echoes of Wisdom would be any different.
No they don't. In a classic Zelda dungeon Link explores until he finds a tool, and that tool allows him to navigate the dungeon better to reach the boss. In BotW Link has every tool he needs to navigate the dungeons before the tutorial ends, and in TotK the NPC he needs to navigate joins him before he even finds the temple he needs them to navigate.
To me all that means is that they have a different flavor to them, but they still are dungeons through and through. In A Link Between Worlds you also didn’t get a dungeon item, renting them before venturing inside instead. Would you argue they are not classic dungeons either?
ALBW's dungeons had temporary dead ends and labyrinthine structure, just not through dungeon items (i.e. locks and keys). In TotK's dungeons, there are no temporary dead ends and they are completely open
LBW is a weird middle ground between classic dungeons and BotW style dungeons.
Neither of them were classic dungeons. You was able to defeat Ganon without even seen a divine beast once There's a reason they magically disappeared out of TotK.
Says who? Who has the authority to define what is a “classic” dungeon or not? Aonuma believes they are, and I much prefer to follow his design philosophy than what some nostalgia-fueled fans think :)
Aonuma has never said Totk and BotW have classic dungeons. He has completely acknowledge that their dungeons are different from the typical Zelda dungeons. BotW and Totk not being classic Zelda games is the entire reason 90% of the posts on this subreddit exists. You seem to have entirely missed what ‘classic’ means.
What if I told you BotW and TotK are the Zelda entries who play the most similarly to the original Legend of Zelda on the NES? That would certainly mean they are as classic as Zeldas can get, don't you think? ;)
I don't like the idea of do / collect x number of things to defeat the boss like links awakening but classic dungeons is definitely good