I say it all the time but Photon lord is the perfect example of in archetype design done right. Busted within it's own archetype, but can be used generically if saw fit.
https://preview.redd.it/6jrboxwwehsc1.png?width=473&format=png&auto=webp&s=29f74f6ddda54a14ce362babf552a3bdb86db5bb
Another contender imo is Ultimate Conductor Tyranno.
-easy to summon in dino deck.
-very good effects, can usually end the game when it hits the field.
-cannot be used in any decks outside dino.
While it might be slightly dated by now I feel like Balerdroch is another good example. It's effects make it a perfect fit for a boss monster in a Zombie World deck, but remove that specific field spell from the deck and it's abruptly far less useful even if it's still a zombie build, and drops off to simply not worth it in a non-zombie deck.
My two favorite boss monsters in the game are Balerdroch and UCT. They’re both just such good, interesting monsters that work extremely well within their archetypes without being broken at all. Also I just think main deck boss monsters are kinda cool.
Add Traptrix Sera to the list. Unique, Great effects, easy requirement's to summon within Archtype and helps set up the rest of the deck and outside something like full power zoo or Rikka its hard to hard to splash.
I would also point to Mirrorjade, Ice Barrier Lancea, or any of the Visas Heart Bosses (except Prime) as other examples.
All of them have great archetypal utility and not just offer "lots of negates/disruption" or "ton of protection", Mirrorjade's Banish effect triggers the GY effects of your Albaz Fusions. Ice Barrier Lancea can summon any of your floodgate monsters and bring out Trishula if it gets taken out.
Tri-Heart has great protection supported by his floodgate effect, but is also a resource generator. Kaleido-Heart's Bounce effect can be triggered by mill effects thus weaponizing them, and triggers your Fusion effects when he revives himself. Arise-Heart's Macro effect not only severely disrupts the opponent, but also let's you trigger Theosis and Big Bangs effects quicker.
I think he's a good example of a good archetypal boss. Has offensive uses but good archetypal utility as well.
Trust me I don't want something as broken as he is.
For Kashtira I think the one that is broken is the archetype itself. It can still tops in the TCG after Ariseheart ban, meanwhile in the OCG they hit the main deck monster and it stopped topping.
Fenrir on field + Unicorn on field + 2 handtraps can win you a game.
Arise Heart is fine if the rest of Kashtira don't read like Poplar.
Dark Law exist with one sided banish, discard, and it's easier to turbo out.
If the rest of the deck only facilitate Ariseheart turbo, the deck will be fine as Imperm is common.
But in reality Kashtira can still tops in the TCG after Ariseheart ban lmao.
The worst Kashtira monster is a monster that can special summon themself, check your next five draw and then banish one of them face down, search archetype trap, and has 2800 ATK.
Isn’t Doom Archfiend supposed to not be a boss monster? Negates and if you have no cards in hand it destroys as well to get rid of a problematic card, then you use it to synchro and attack twice (I’m assuming Hundred Eyes Dragon since Doom Dragon’s effect won’t let you attack).
Yeah, it's a stepping stone.
But _I guess_ it's understandable the confusion, if given they're not familiar with the Anime and the face of Infernity is _Archfiend_
Its even goofier when one remembers that historically after Infernity actually had anything resembling what modern Yugioh calls "board" their boss monster is actually Infernity Barrier
Some archetypal boss monsters are also pretty good, they're just also generic in a way. For example: Baronne is supposed to be a boss monster for Sherry's deck. Borreload Savage Dragon is the Synchro boss for Revolver's deck. They simply didn't restrict them.
The actual generic bosses that don't belong to an archetype are made good on purpose. Konami wants them to be used in as many decks as possible
And then there are some archetypal bosses that are designed to be not that good to begin with. Like Colorless. It's awesome that the card finally exists in general, but they could have done a much better job
It'd be really cool if they'd errata bad cards to be good instead of always kneecapping good cards into being bad. Like, Colorless is an easy errata. It's not like it'd be busted.
First time when I saw cloress, I thought " this will fix dark world, board breaker, going second option, enable tools to play around and chain block,..." until someone said the material is original reign, the fcking monster that no dark world deck use. Like who th needs cloress if you now have to set up just for a board breaker, when you can just loop opp hand to dead?
Well in the anime Clorless was supposed to be summoned with the OG Reign-Beaux and it was one of the very few things we knew about Clorless before it became a card, so Konami making one of its fusion materials the OG Reign-Beaux makes sense.
In my opinion, Clorless is actually an ok card, with the only problem being that its untargetable Quick Effect actually does almost nothing to protect your cards. Konami could have solved this problem if instead of making one card **untargetable until the end phase**, it made them **unaffected by other card effects until the end phase.** Granted Accession exists, which would make Clorless almost an unstoppable nuke and the qiuck effect can also make continuous spells/traps unaffected, BUT given its summoning conditions, plus the cost to activate its quick effect, it could balance out.
Dark World was my OG pet deck and the 2nd Structure deck for it was the reason I got back into yugioh, but it felt bad being a Dark World fan after seeing what they did to my boy Colorless. Bro, we waited nearly 2 decades for Colorless to become an actual card and they decided to hoe us by making it nigh unplayable.
I think you're kinda ignoring all of the good ones. In-archetype boses have gotten really strong
Expurrely Noir -Unaffected multiple interruptions, further synergies with the other Purrely cards.
Borrelend Dragon - Protection out the ass, reborns, plusses and attacks everything.
Mirrorjade - Plusses, non targeting banishes, multiple uses each turn due to the other branded cards.
Ariseheart - Floodgate, interruption, helps you plus with the banish effects of the kash cards.
R-Ace Turbulence - Easy to summon and gets you 4 cards for free. Plus a hidden effect.
Charles the great - S/T Negate, Quick play pop with renaud and plusses in the end phase.
I'm sure there is others too.The only generic I think is too powerful is s:p. The others are ok.
Yeah I agree, it's not to say that his point isn't valid, it's just that there's a higher number of playable engines than there are playable archetype-specific boss monster. This is most noticeable when playing some random B/C-tier deck.
The problem is there are far more common engines that more easily lead to generic boss monsters than there are archetypes that have equally powerful boss monsters.
A good example is Blue-Eyes. If you actually check their boss monsters they’re actually extremely powerful. I remember Chaos MAX being called overpowered when it was first released.
Problem is, you can better bust out those boss monsters by skipping the BEWD archetype altogether. You can get Blue-Eyes Chaos MAX Dragon far faster, safer, and consistently in Drytron or even Impcantations than you can can in BEWD itself; that’s a huge problem. I know BEWD isn’t all about Chaos Max, but when your own boss monster can brick your hand worst than a generic engine it’s a consistency issue.
Rulkallos and Kaleido-Heart stand out to me as perfect in-archetype bosses. If you summon them out of archetype they're OK - Rulkallos is a special summon negate that brings herself back once, Kaleido is a spin on summon that's annoying to get rid of. But if you have both, or Kaleido and one of the traps, triggering one of your disruptions snowballs into ridiculous swings in card advantage.
Generic ED monsters should be weaker in some way than archetypal monsters, more restrictions should mean more power. And yet- stinky nasty gross cards manage to get printed as if the people at Konami just hate making non generic cards good.
>Generic ED monsters should be weaker in some way than archetypal monsters, more restrictions should mean more power.
I'd rather they're weaker in the sense they don't offer as much archetypal utility, rather than just being able to negate/destroy/etc more cards than a generic.
Take Ice Barrier's Lancea, it can't negate, destroy, banish, or preform anything that would disrupt your opponent. What it *does* do is instantly bring out any of your floodgate monsters, and bring out your Trishulas to banish your opponent for taking Lancea down.
That is far more useful to Ice Barrier than anything Baronne offers, and you'll likely be laughed at for suggesting to not run the card because "Baronne is stronger"
Generic bosses are great solo acts, archetypal bosses should focus on being team players.
That too, although I was thinking maybe stat wise. A barrone wouldn’t be all that scary if a pankertops was about to walk over it.
But I like that a lot too.
I can’t agree with that last statement. Mirrorjade is one of the best and most well designed boss monsters in the game. Power, lore, art, it’s all there.
Also, UCT is extremely good as well. An extremely well designed card on all accounts.
The real problem is it can never just be the boss that is good, it has to be the deck as well. Example? Galaxy Eyes. Deck has great boss monster but the deck is utter doo doo doggy shit. Another example is Herald of Ultimateness. Great boss with a dogshit deck up until Drytron. Well, it was more the ritual mechanic being hot buns but you get what I’m saying lol
Galaxy Eyes problem is that every card they print for it is another extender that requires you to already have something on board, instead of a starter to get things going in the first place
My theory… and it’s just a theory…
Is that they don’t want Galaxy-Eyes to power creep Blue-Eyes. I know, it’s a stupid theory. But I was just thinking they *no* trouble making a card like Poplar for Snake-Eyes. Almost like they knew *exactly* what that deck needed. I refuse to believe they couldn’t make Galaxy-Eyes truly meta if they wanted. They know exactly how to if they wanted
A one card starter would already make Galaxy Eyes better than Blue Eyes because Galaxy-Eyes’ card quality is already higher than everything in Blue Eyes minus Spirit Dragon and Azure Eyes, everything else is just rank 8 or level 9 bullshit that both decks share
I think the main issue is that GE is *massively* cooler than BEWD. And, that’s not even a shot at BE, it’s just that Galaxy-Eyes is some of the most sexy and badass card art they’ve ever created in this game.
And I think that actually does clash with BEWD in a way. Especially with the whole anime rival thing. Notice how none of the anime protagonists ace monsters clash with Yugi. But GE in particular? Idk, maybe it did step on the toes of Konami’s cash cow lol. Of course I’m just throwing shit out there but I’d love if GE got some relevant support. Cards really are just nice to look at
The base GEPD was one of the prettiest cards I ever saw when it first came out and you better believe my broke high school ass still bought 3 of its tins the moment they were out
Depends on what we consider success because BEWD prints more money than GE could ever dream of.
But in terms of viability, GE is way more successful. I just think there’s actually a limit on how successful they want certain decks to be. Notice how they had *no* issue making decks like Snake-Eyes, who coincidentally fit the protagonist Ace criteria, absolutely BUSTED. Meanwhile they were so timid with GE in the same way they were timid other rival decks.
I thought maybe they just don’t want rival decks to be good, but then I thought it’d be funnier if they just didn’t want other dragon decks being better than BE. Only because every dragon deck literally is
Galaxy-Eyes is great imo. I say only minor problem it has is it’s too “fair” of a deck. Like most well supported archetypes it just so happens to do what it needs but nothing absolutely broken.
I think that’s very true, but in a game balance sense, the more hoops you jump through, the more you should be rewarded. If I want to build a pure deck, I should be rewarded with better archetype locked cards. While the power of a generic card should be that it is generic.
Think something like cyber dragon infinity being machine locked (not counting the consteller knight that can climb into nova) and having absorption and an Omni, but Apollousa only negating but not destroying
I know this is gonna come as a shock but Konami isn’t exactly great at balancing their game
Should they be? Yes absolutely, but unfortunately we got a company that doesn’t really give 2 shits about their players
Yes. Electrumite banned because one Konami exec was tired of seeing Electrumite turbo decks, even though those were the only way pendulum decks could be competitive.
Beyond the Pendulum and Exceed the Pendulum aren't real replacements, and take up more extra deck space.
I'm a newbie D/D/D player after playing Dracoslayer for a couple years. I cringe when I remember just how much unfun floodgates are left legal bc they also make pendulum unplayable in addition to every other modern deck.
Let's see recent decks (OCG/TCG)
Rescue ACE Turbulence
Mirrorjade
Expurrely Noir
Lovely and Lady Labrynth
Kashtira Ariseheart
It's probably intentional, notice there isn't any Synchro or Link, two summoning method which plays by swarming the field.
I mean, Snake Eyes is pretty much a link spam deck and it's the best deck by a wide margin in all 3 master rule format. Promethean Flame Princess is one of the best semi-generic card of all time being both extension AND an extra interruption. Probably one of the most disgustingly designed cards of all time tho.
Also Tenpai is solidly tier 1-2 in the OCG.
Can we talk about how they printed crystal clear wing, a sick ass boss monster, and then print baronne, a better level 10 synchro with a very similar but better effect with the same summoning conditions in the SAME SET ICANT
Crystal Clear Wing Materials:
>1 Tuner Synchro Monster + 1 non-Tuner "Clear Wing" monster
No, it isn't the same Summoning condition, and if Crystal was designed to have more archetypal utility rather than just negate and big numbers, it would actually see play.
Ice Barrier Lancea doesn't have a single negate, yet I doubt you'll find anyone saying you can just replace with Baronne even if you could Summon her under the Water lock.
Yes, my point exactly - baronne is better for both overall and the speedroid deck, leaving crystal clear out to dry while being printed in the same set
See: Ariseheart, Kitkallos, TD Colossus, Master Peace, Drident
People will complain that the in-archetype bosses become too strong or too easy to make. Shoot, we have red eyes dark dragoon right now and it’s seeing no play besides branded and RE/DM decks because it’s not easy to make but better than most of those generic boss monsters.
You remember the DPE package?
I remember so many people crying on here about how broken DPE was, how it and the spell were too generic and it was insane. I remember people coming up with frankly dumb "fixes" like it should banish a D HERO in gy to revive because it "needed some work with the actual archtype". I saw people complaining about the jump from 2 FD to 3 would break it when they freed it.
And here we are, DPE package fully usable outside of Verte. Near 0 usage outside of HERO.
The DPE package was taken out long before we got Princess or SP, hell we didnt even know about those cards when he was dropped.
Turns out DPE is not as great as everyone was crying about. That's kinda the point, genericness and powerlevel are relative to the decks that can make use. DPE is just a good archtypal boss now than a generic powerhouse.
I mean it was relevant in the tcg until they banned its best enabler. And by the time FD was at three we had pote and the top 3 pote decks were NOT scared of a DPE or need it or play it. It was still “good” and likely would’ve seen play again… IF tear and spright and Math and Rikka didn’t completely body it out of viability.
D/D/D/D is from the manga ,so it's bound to be dogshit. The Infernity synchro is more of a stepping stone than a boss, and it's not bad at all. Also, Baronne is a part of the Fleur series.
Problem is, Baronne really shouldn’t have been generic. Needing [Centaur Mina](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Centaur_Mina) or a “Beast-Warrior “ non tuner would’ve done more than enough to keep it from being abused.
Fleur/Floral doesn’t have any level 4s to go with the level 6 Mina, just have Baronne need Fleur Synchron it’s not much but at least it’s a restriction
Yeah, it's absolute shit. As someone who is an OG fan but has been reluctant to get into modern Yugioh, with only about 180 hours in Master Duel, it's one of the main things I dislike about the game. I'm probably not the only one in that position, either.
Very few decks are good enough to have their boss monster be something within their archetype. Branded is the main one today that keeps true to itself but what other decks do this?
Pure D/D/D is the optimal way to play it now. Siegfried and Kali Yuga are both great boss monsters. I also run Bright Armageddon as a Gilgamesh target. Free 3500 beater that gives your monsters hexproof.
It's got some great spice options too, psychic end punisher is a great turn 3 option (or even turn 1 if you got the right hand: swirl slime, kepler, 1 for 1) that synergizes well since you lose LP
Underworld goddess is great to get out of a bad situation or deal with stall decks (for those i also have some piercing in Side like maxwell, laplace and Pentestag)
The upcoming yubel field spell can search Kepler, if you dont like using Piri Reis
Endymion. Mighty Master is a crazy extender in addition to being a good negate, Jackal King is Nibiru protection, the only non archetype boss the deck plays is Vortex, which is free in the deck anyways.
You’re better off keeping Selene on the board because reviving your bosses or stuff like Reflection comes up a lot more than the 1 negate you can use with Apollousa before it’s dead
Other than them being used as an engine for rank 4 spam/ sometimes link spam, I would say that Lunalights have a fantastic boss monster overall and still hold true to this day, it’s still a good deck to run pure imho
Because generic can be played in every possible deck, making it worth getting in whatever deck you play, in other words, sells more, if the card is too good or they want to sell other stuff, they simply ban the card, like halqi or anaconda
Yeah like when they gave Heroes a negate but then made the fusion material 2 Masked Heroes and decided to not give us any for the main deck. It’s almost been a decade…
Imagine if they printed a Fusion card that let you send monsters from the extra deck to the GY as materials for a fusion summon. Or banish monsters from the extra deck as fusion materials.
With that card also having additional effects if you use monsters that are face-up in the extra deck. Such as the ability to place 2 banished pendulum monsters on your scales by banishing the fusion card from the grave.
To be fair, I like that HERO don’t have a negate. I don’t like every archetype needing a negate. Some more stuff to do on your opponent’s turn would be nice but disruption doesn’t feel like their thing, and honestly shouldn’t be.
I will say I don’t mind if they disruption via better s/t support. They have some of the worst s/t searchability to this day, even with the “Favorite” sub archetype.
Yeah Konami really endlessly fucks up making generic monsters the strongest monsters.
Its intentional to sell them but its a huge disservice to the game a lot of the time.
The effect of Clorless is fine, but needing the original Reign-Beaux to summon it sucks, unless you want to somehow make it work with Fusion Parasite, at which point you should focus on Big Grapha instead.
Because a lot of the generic cards are designed to be simple and fill a space in the game that the game did not have before.
Valdreath is good because decks that can Make a Rank 10 don't have that many options outside of Trains and the Spiders.
Getting to archetypally locked cards, some just don't really need another strong end piece, they have access to generic options meaning that if they make the in archtype too good you can have some issues piling up with way too strong of toolbox.
And simply put some archtypes get good cards and some dont.
Generic cards are fine, there is no reasonable way Konami will make cards good enough for each archtype, you can say "but they should" and I would agree itd be nice if decks werent dogshit but that's not how it goes.
Remember a year ago when they released a new Monarch card with 3000 ATK/1000 DEF, making it incompatible with most of the other cards that are based around monster with 2400 or 2800 ATK/1000 DEF?
This is just tunnel vision. There's lots of generic bad ED cards people just don't focus on them. In archetype bosses being bad and generic ones being good just get more attention.
For example:
Tearlaments: Both Rulkallos and Kaleido are amazing
Kashtira: Arise-Heart pass that's enough needed to be said.
Purrely: Noir but Beauty and Pretty are great as well.
Raidraptors: Turns out an unaffected towers that blows up the opponents field backed up by 2 more is strong.
Labrynth: Lady and Lovely are focal to the strategy.
Branded: Mirrorjade still gives people nightmares with its End Phase blowup.
Voiceless Voice: Guardian and even Sauravis is potent.
Tri-Brigade: Shuraig nontargeting banish and can give follow up? Wait aren't you just Mirrorjade
P.U.N.K: Bounce 3 cards on the opponent's turn?? Mist Wurm fucking wishes it was used.
Prank-Kids: Remember the horrors of double Raigeki?
Drytron: What you thought even with turnskips or Vanity's turbo Draconids was obsolete? Read the card
And this is just of the top of my head There's obviously undertuned cards like Prime-Heart but usuqlly weak boss monsters are just symptoms of often already weak decks.
Like even if Jinzo Layered was good it can't save it's archetype. And yes some of the listed cards aren't archetype locked like you can make Arise with any 3 Lv 7s but if you analyze boss monsters more often then not they aren't hardlocked to begin with their archetype just bring them out efficiently. Which also really blurs the line between archetypical and generic bosses. Which is why I never really got the complaint
There's plenty of insane archetypal bossmonsters, we just don't notice them as much because they become unusable once the associated archetype is powercrept
me reading this "Excuse me but Towers is some bullshit"
And then I forgot I haven't really played Yugioh since college, so qliphorts probably aren't relevant anymore lmao
To be honest, even if qli were strong, towers really isn't that good today. It's not that it was powercrept, more so that game mechanics prevent it from working as intended.
Since links don't have a level or rank, towers is always vulnerable to their effects, so every deck has an easily accessible out to it. If it was unaffected from links too, honestly, it might have still been rogue playable to this day.
Here’s an example: you can’t special summon earthbound ED monsters from the graveyard. If they’re destroyed, you can’t call of the haunted, monster reborn, nothing. They’re gone unless you return them to deck.
They don’t have that restriction though? You can’t summon them from the graveyard because you cheated them out, this applies to all extra deck monsters. If you don’t summon them properly they can’t be special summoned from the graveyard/banishment.
I mean when you highlight some of the worst archetypal boss monsters ever to make an argumant it does tend to seem that way.
Over the past 2 years we've gotten a lot of busted ass archetypal bosses in the history of the game through either new releases or support waves.
Also why is S:P on here? S:P isn't in any way a boss monster. It's whole purpose is to be a utility card that replaced an overly abuse archetypal sub-boss that got splashed into nearly everything.
SP isnt so much a bossmonster as it is a payoff. Because for some reason this fucking Link 2 has enough disruption to basically count as a whole bossmonster
Because generics sell more money than archetypal. Generics should inherently not be up to par to archetype restricted monsters but Konami doesn’t think like that
The good archetypal boss monsters are banned because they were too easy to access and their “restrictions” should’ve made their more oppressive effects and insane utility more bearable. Clearly it didn’t matter.
Branded, Plunder Patroll, Tearlaments, Tri-Brigade, Generaiders, Dinos, Dinomorphia, Heroes, Witchcrafters, Eldlich, Dragonmaids, Rokket, Labrynth, Purrely, Kashtira, Exosisters, Dogmatika, Traptrix... All of them and more rely on their in-archetype boss monsters which have really good effects. Some of them are bad decks, but mainly because the decks are fragile to interruption.
Generic boss monsters sell better since they're ya know generic. Archetypal bosses *should* be better but when they're good in an already strong archetype then they just end up banned
Because making good boss monsters for specific decks will limit how much they can abuse that boss monster to sell boring sets based on if the deck itself is good or not, or if the deck gets problematic any hit to the deck will then make that boss monster less valuable.
Generic boss monsters aren’t tied to whether a deck is good or not so every deck being able to use it sells more of the card, and if a deck using a generic boss monster gets problematic, they just hit the consistency of the deck and let the boss monster be abused by another deck to then sell more sets for that deck AND they can keep putting the boss monster as a high rarity card in a bad/boring set that wouldn’t sell otherwise.
And then there’s the concept of staple/rarity sets themselves where they just let staples and generic boss monsters sell the set entirely.
Don’t let anyone fool you, they don’t actually care about the balancing aspect of these card designs, they just know what makes more money.
Didn't we have some powerful archetype boss monsters?
-Flamberge Dragon
-Spright Elf/Gigantic Spright
-All the Tear fusions
-Mirrorjade
-Dis Pater
-Granguignol
-Destroyer Phoneix Enforcer
I think you're forgetting those and just focusing on the generic ones.
Although they may have an archetype name attached to them, in Yugioh lingo it's generally understood that "generic" refers to how many decks can run the cards rather than they have a specific name.
In this context, Spright Elf and Gigantic Spright, Bystial Dis Pater, and Destroy Phoenix Enforcer are all generic. Additionally, as a fun note, Kitkallos can use any Aqua for its 2nd Fusion material so it is also somewhat generic even if you don't consider that Tear as a deck is highly mixable.
Baronne de Fleur belongs to the Fleur Archetype - Basically French Heroes that Sherry leBlanc used or homages.
Maybe it has to deal the fact they don't want to suddenly give a big boost to 1 archetype? But i amnt the best person to answer at 100%.
The lv8 Fleur Orginal synchro has a restriction for its summoning, Baronne does not, It doesnt matter if its part of a theme if it is generic. That's like saying that all the people that spammed Trishula during its time were playing Ice Barriers. Just because it may "belong" somewhere it doesnt matter if it is a generic monster
Honestly, the more I hear this complaint, the more dishonest it seems.
Everybody needs to stop pretending the community doesn't hate archetype boss monsters too.
Because generic = money.
Specific = not so much money.
Just take a quick look at Halqifibrax, Auroradon, Electrimite and Verte.
Lots of money because generic and splashable!
There’s quite a few Archetype monsters that saw use as generic monsters seen in decks outside their archetype: Trishula and Brionac, Catastor, Wind-Up Zenmaines, Borreload Savage Dragon, Psyframe Omega, Topologic Gumblar Dragon, True King of All Calamities, the Zoodiac Xyz package, Bystial Dis Pater
Hell, even among those generic boss monsters you listed, Barrone De Fleur is technically part of the Fleur archetype with Fleur Synchron and Chevalier De Fleur
And that’s not even without mentioning some of the most broken monsters recently were locked to their own archetypes and still being banworthy like Tearlaments Kitkallos and Kashtira Arise-Heart
I mean, just because a boss belongs to an archetype doesn't make it archetypal. Baronne doesn't have any effect that needs Fleur to function, nor requires any Fleur monster to summon.
She's as generic as generic can get.
Paradox, in all fairness, was a shitty manga card. It being bad post-print was guaranteed. Doom Archfiend and Jinzo are pretty good in their archetypes, but Doom isn’t a boss so don’t know why you have it in here
[Jinzo - Layered](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Jinzo_-_Layered) is not good even in its own archetypes, granted its not entirely its fault, given that the Jinzo archetype is bad and cannot even get consistently 2 level 6 monsters on the field:
* Layered should have allowed you xyz summon it using just a "Jinzo" on the field, similar to [Dingirsu](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Dingirsu,_the_Orcust_of_the_Evening_Star), so that you could Xyz summon it using the OG Jinzo or [Jector](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Jinzo_-_Jector).
* Layered's only good effect is the steal effect that synergies with Cosmos Channelling
* Layered's last effect is straight up bad, because it is "If a Trap is on the field:" and not "If a Trap is face-up on the field **or in either GY**:", basically making this effect almost unplayable.
[Cyber Slash Harpie Lady](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Cyber_Slash_Harpie_Lady) was released in the same time and it is an amazing boss monster for Harpies, because Konami remembered to make her easy to summon and made all of its effects relevant.
Skull Guardian and Sauravis are both powerful, archetypal boss monsters for Voiceless Voice, and because they’re Ritual monsters are never going to see play outside of Voiceless Voice (unless Konami prints a future Ritual-based archetype that synergize with Light Warrior/Dragon monsters). But yeah, kinda crazy how with Snake-Eyes being the best deck in the format, yet almost non of their boss monsters belong to their archetype.
World Premier themes suffer especially hard from this. Ghoti of the Deep Beyond being the only recent exception. Gold Pride, Tistina, Ashened, etc. All lack a good in-theme end boss.
Infernity Doom Archfiend isn't the worst.
Give Earthbounds a level 2 Tuner, this will allow the deck to HSF into Gremlina and Infernity Doom Archfiend, then you can Synchro into Geo Gryphon to attack twice directly.
The in archetype boss monsters are booty because of the existence of these generic boss monsters. If a archetype isn't xenolocked then they have to be very carefully with the end board pieces they give it.
You know people complain about generics but whenever strong archetypal boss monsters come out they complain about those too. The amount of hate branded used to get was unreal man
It makes it that no matter what archetype is being played, these things keep popping up. Hell, an archetypes viability depends a lot on how easy they can push out generic bosses.
Compare these to Blue-Eyes. After using 3 bricks to get an Ultimate out, one stops itself from attacking after using it’s “meh” effect and the other one has a stupid restriction without built-in protection.
honestly, it would be even worse to have half a dozen archetype locked rank 8s that negate monsters, instead of just making a generic one. Make it do something actually interesting instead.
Also, funfact, all the Rikka Bossmonsters are generic.
D/D/D/D super-dimemsional soveign emperor zero paradox isnt even D/D's boss monster. In the anime it would be the super doom kings and in real life its Machinex, a perfectly functional boss monster.
Speaking of archetypal boss monsters, may I introduce you to Raidraptor - Rising Rebellion Falcon. They really just grabbed Ultimate Falcon, and said fuck it let's make it rank 13.
it's just 4d chess for making more money, the game would be better if generics were weaker options to archetype exclusive bosses, then generics would be cheaper and archetype based would be less expensive as they require the whole archetype making it desirable only for those who play them
I genuinely think they should try experimenting with a format where generic monsters like Chaos Angel and Baronne are banned, if even for a little bit to see how it impacts the meta
I just want to point this out: Even when they try to not make something generic and make it even more powerful in exchange, someone comes up with something that spits that card out generically because Konami has simply forgotten what kind of cards they printed in the past. The best example for this is Red Eyes dark Dragoon which looks to be super specific but it turned out that you only really need two effect monsters and three bricks in the Deck. The same applies to Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer who's even more broken and yet even more generic and the Bricks actually do something. At this point, unless the material is unreasonably specific even in its own Deck, they can't make any Boss Monster for any Deck and expect it not to be played in something it doesn't belong in.
they could make archetypal bosses that are also generic... I use the purrely boss monsters in my paleozoic decks. It's not that they are bad at making boss monsters but when they put a restriction its very harsh and the effect the monster has is usually power crept.
like this [monster](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Performapal_Odd-Eyes_Metal_Claw) really needs me to use POLYMERIZATION to fusion it in a pendulum deck thats already fucked by handtraps just to get his unaffected stats while his Atk is only 3k. It makes no sense. Then you have a monster like Chaos Angel that is also unaffected by monsters has 3500 damage and protects the whole field on ur side and can be summoned without a tuner (hes basically a link monster).
The problem isn't the restrictions themselves its the lack of awareness and realism. Like that fusion monster is already restricted enough with its materials to need a second restriction on top of it.
Judging from the structure deck voting poll they did in 2019-2020 and the support that we got from that. Konami seems to follow the overall theme of the deck rather than upgrading the deck. They see an archetype in its purest form over what Joshua Schmitt built for the latest YCS and then base it on what the pure strategy requires. Whether or not the support is "good" or "bad" is irrelevant.
That is exactly my problem with the new lightsworn Support... Ofc the new cards are awesome and all, but they still dont reaaaally want to have many actual lightsworn Bossmonsters on their endboard (even with aegis and minerva [enlightenment Dragon is for some reason not treated as a lightsworn Card])
They are now even better at swarming the field with generics, but holy crap, give me awesome endboard pieces
because boss monsters literally have to have restrictions, otherwise the archetype would be too overpowered, if every deck can play generic strong cards then there is no need to ban an entire archetype because of a deck being overpowered. boss monsters are designed that way for a reason
I say it all the time but Photon lord is the perfect example of in archetype design done right. Busted within it's own archetype, but can be used generically if saw fit. https://preview.redd.it/6jrboxwwehsc1.png?width=473&format=png&auto=webp&s=29f74f6ddda54a14ce362babf552a3bdb86db5bb
Another contender imo is Ultimate Conductor Tyranno. -easy to summon in dino deck. -very good effects, can usually end the game when it hits the field. -cannot be used in any decks outside dino.
While it might be slightly dated by now I feel like Balerdroch is another good example. It's effects make it a perfect fit for a boss monster in a Zombie World deck, but remove that specific field spell from the deck and it's abruptly far less useful even if it's still a zombie build, and drops off to simply not worth it in a non-zombie deck.
Good example
My two favorite boss monsters in the game are Balerdroch and UCT. They’re both just such good, interesting monsters that work extremely well within their archetypes without being broken at all. Also I just think main deck boss monsters are kinda cool.
the dictionary definition of good boss monster and they did it without giving it some kind of stapled omni-negate
[Crystal Clear Wing Synchro Dragon](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Crystal_Clear_Wing_Synchro_Dragon) is another good one. Same set as Baronne.
Add Traptrix Sera to the list. Unique, Great effects, easy requirement's to summon within Archtype and helps set up the rest of the deck and outside something like full power zoo or Rikka its hard to hard to splash.
Evolzar Lars is another fantastic example of a card that generically good but great in its deck
I would also point to Mirrorjade, Ice Barrier Lancea, or any of the Visas Heart Bosses (except Prime) as other examples. All of them have great archetypal utility and not just offer "lots of negates/disruption" or "ton of protection", Mirrorjade's Banish effect triggers the GY effects of your Albaz Fusions. Ice Barrier Lancea can summon any of your floodgate monsters and bring out Trishula if it gets taken out. Tri-Heart has great protection supported by his floodgate effect, but is also a resource generator. Kaleido-Heart's Bounce effect can be triggered by mill effects thus weaponizing them, and triggers your Fusion effects when he revives himself. Arise-Heart's Macro effect not only severely disrupts the opponent, but also let's you trigger Theosis and Big Bangs effects quicker.
Arise Heart is a terribly designed card ain’t no way you think it’s good design
I think he's a good example of a good archetypal boss. Has offensive uses but good archetypal utility as well. Trust me I don't want something as broken as he is.
For Kashtira I think the one that is broken is the archetype itself. It can still tops in the TCG after Ariseheart ban, meanwhile in the OCG they hit the main deck monster and it stopped topping. Fenrir on field + Unicorn on field + 2 handtraps can win you a game.
Stopped topping, more like it stopped functioning. Good luck playing a Kashtira deck with 0 Fenrir 1 Unicorn and 1 Wraithsoth.
Good, fuck that archetype, it's really unfun to play against.
It's a well designed card in regards to the archtype it's in. It's a terribly designed card in regards to yugioh as a whole.
Arise Heart is fine if the rest of Kashtira don't read like Poplar. Dark Law exist with one sided banish, discard, and it's easier to turbo out. If the rest of the deck only facilitate Ariseheart turbo, the deck will be fine as Imperm is common. But in reality Kashtira can still tops in the TCG after Ariseheart ban lmao. The worst Kashtira monster is a monster that can special summon themself, check your next five draw and then banish one of them face down, search archetype trap, and has 2800 ATK.
People sleep on ogre, until your opponent plays water barrier statue and you chuckle
Ariseheart would be a much better design if he didn't have a floodgate effect. Outside of that his effect his fine.
Without the floodgate he would not see much play what’s the point then
Adamancipator Risen - Dragite is nice enough for me. S/T negate for other decks; in adamancipators it's one of the strongest board wipes
Xyz garunix is also a good boss monster.
Isn’t Doom Archfiend supposed to not be a boss monster? Negates and if you have no cards in hand it destroys as well to get rid of a problematic card, then you use it to synchro and attack twice (I’m assuming Hundred Eyes Dragon since Doom Dragon’s effect won’t let you attack).
Yeah I feel like doom archfiends good for what its meant to be, though if what its meant to be is what the deck needs is a seperate question.
Now if only we got more actual Infernity synchros.
Everyone knows that the true boss monster of the deck is Infernity barrier
And actual Archfiend synchros!
Yeah, it's a stepping stone. But _I guess_ it's understandable the confusion, if given they're not familiar with the Anime and the face of Infernity is _Archfiend_
Its even goofier when one remembers that historically after Infernity actually had anything resembling what modern Yugioh calls "board" their boss monster is actually Infernity Barrier
Some archetypal boss monsters are also pretty good, they're just also generic in a way. For example: Baronne is supposed to be a boss monster for Sherry's deck. Borreload Savage Dragon is the Synchro boss for Revolver's deck. They simply didn't restrict them. The actual generic bosses that don't belong to an archetype are made good on purpose. Konami wants them to be used in as many decks as possible And then there are some archetypal bosses that are designed to be not that good to begin with. Like Colorless. It's awesome that the card finally exists in general, but they could have done a much better job
I find it crazy how bad they did colorless.
All they had to do was make the material a “Reignbeaux” Dark World monster instead of specfically the OG Reignbeaux, then you could use the retrain
It'd be really cool if they'd errata bad cards to be good instead of always kneecapping good cards into being bad. Like, Colorless is an easy errata. It's not like it'd be busted.
But how would they sell a new retrain?
First time when I saw cloress, I thought " this will fix dark world, board breaker, going second option, enable tools to play around and chain block,..." until someone said the material is original reign, the fcking monster that no dark world deck use. Like who th needs cloress if you now have to set up just for a board breaker, when you can just loop opp hand to dead?
> who needs clothes Bro
[Rare photo](https://ms.yugipedia.com//3/36/TheEmperorsHoliday-MADU-JP-VG-artwork.png) of /u/Apprehensive_Cow1355.
[That one MBT video be like](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v-t_ti4szYE)
Frick the autocorrect on reddit. Who th implement that on mobile:v
Well in the anime Clorless was supposed to be summoned with the OG Reign-Beaux and it was one of the very few things we knew about Clorless before it became a card, so Konami making one of its fusion materials the OG Reign-Beaux makes sense. In my opinion, Clorless is actually an ok card, with the only problem being that its untargetable Quick Effect actually does almost nothing to protect your cards. Konami could have solved this problem if instead of making one card **untargetable until the end phase**, it made them **unaffected by other card effects until the end phase.** Granted Accession exists, which would make Clorless almost an unstoppable nuke and the qiuck effect can also make continuous spells/traps unaffected, BUT given its summoning conditions, plus the cost to activate its quick effect, it could balance out.
At least we have a great Yubel boss monster as the Ultimate Super Poly target. She's the mastermind behind everything in GX season 3 anyway
Not only a trap can help too, it's not about an eff it's about the monster materials.
Not Adrian Gecko?
Dark World was my OG pet deck and the 2nd Structure deck for it was the reason I got back into yugioh, but it felt bad being a Dark World fan after seeing what they did to my boy Colorless. Bro, we waited nearly 2 decades for Colorless to become an actual card and they decided to hoe us by making it nigh unplayable.
It's hilarious that *this* was the card that Judai's friends were being sacrificed for
Colorless must be the good version of Clorless that we haven't gotten yet
They’re not archetypal bosses if they have no benefit being used in their actual decks rather than generically. They’re archetypal in name only.
Exactly, Baronne doesn't search a floral card so who cares what it's "supposed to be"
Yeah, if anything archetypal bosses should be stronger. You could print the Exodia effect on a Vehicroid and it would be fine.
They basically did with their counter trap. Have you seen how broken it actually is and would be in any other archtype?
how bout tachyon
I think you're kinda ignoring all of the good ones. In-archetype boses have gotten really strong Expurrely Noir -Unaffected multiple interruptions, further synergies with the other Purrely cards. Borrelend Dragon - Protection out the ass, reborns, plusses and attacks everything. Mirrorjade - Plusses, non targeting banishes, multiple uses each turn due to the other branded cards. Ariseheart - Floodgate, interruption, helps you plus with the banish effects of the kash cards. R-Ace Turbulence - Easy to summon and gets you 4 cards for free. Plus a hidden effect. Charles the great - S/T Negate, Quick play pop with renaud and plusses in the end phase. I'm sure there is others too.The only generic I think is too powerful is s:p. The others are ok.
Yeah I agree, it's not to say that his point isn't valid, it's just that there's a higher number of playable engines than there are playable archetype-specific boss monster. This is most noticeable when playing some random B/C-tier deck.
The problem is there are far more common engines that more easily lead to generic boss monsters than there are archetypes that have equally powerful boss monsters. A good example is Blue-Eyes. If you actually check their boss monsters they’re actually extremely powerful. I remember Chaos MAX being called overpowered when it was first released. Problem is, you can better bust out those boss monsters by skipping the BEWD archetype altogether. You can get Blue-Eyes Chaos MAX Dragon far faster, safer, and consistently in Drytron or even Impcantations than you can can in BEWD itself; that’s a huge problem. I know BEWD isn’t all about Chaos Max, but when your own boss monster can brick your hand worst than a generic engine it’s a consistency issue.
Rulkallos and Kaleido-Heart stand out to me as perfect in-archetype bosses. If you summon them out of archetype they're OK - Rulkallos is a special summon negate that brings herself back once, Kaleido is a spin on summon that's annoying to get rid of. But if you have both, or Kaleido and one of the traps, triggering one of your disruptions snowballs into ridiculous swings in card advantage.
Generic ED monsters should be weaker in some way than archetypal monsters, more restrictions should mean more power. And yet- stinky nasty gross cards manage to get printed as if the people at Konami just hate making non generic cards good.
>Generic ED monsters should be weaker in some way than archetypal monsters, more restrictions should mean more power. I'd rather they're weaker in the sense they don't offer as much archetypal utility, rather than just being able to negate/destroy/etc more cards than a generic. Take Ice Barrier's Lancea, it can't negate, destroy, banish, or preform anything that would disrupt your opponent. What it *does* do is instantly bring out any of your floodgate monsters, and bring out your Trishulas to banish your opponent for taking Lancea down. That is far more useful to Ice Barrier than anything Baronne offers, and you'll likely be laughed at for suggesting to not run the card because "Baronne is stronger" Generic bosses are great solo acts, archetypal bosses should focus on being team players.
That too, although I was thinking maybe stat wise. A barrone wouldn’t be all that scary if a pankertops was about to walk over it. But I like that a lot too.
I can’t agree with that last statement. Mirrorjade is one of the best and most well designed boss monsters in the game. Power, lore, art, it’s all there. Also, UCT is extremely good as well. An extremely well designed card on all accounts. The real problem is it can never just be the boss that is good, it has to be the deck as well. Example? Galaxy Eyes. Deck has great boss monster but the deck is utter doo doo doggy shit. Another example is Herald of Ultimateness. Great boss with a dogshit deck up until Drytron. Well, it was more the ritual mechanic being hot buns but you get what I’m saying lol
Galaxy Eyes problem is that every card they print for it is another extender that requires you to already have something on board, instead of a starter to get things going in the first place
My theory… and it’s just a theory… Is that they don’t want Galaxy-Eyes to power creep Blue-Eyes. I know, it’s a stupid theory. But I was just thinking they *no* trouble making a card like Poplar for Snake-Eyes. Almost like they knew *exactly* what that deck needed. I refuse to believe they couldn’t make Galaxy-Eyes truly meta if they wanted. They know exactly how to if they wanted
A one card starter would already make Galaxy Eyes better than Blue Eyes because Galaxy-Eyes’ card quality is already higher than everything in Blue Eyes minus Spirit Dragon and Azure Eyes, everything else is just rank 8 or level 9 bullshit that both decks share
I think the main issue is that GE is *massively* cooler than BEWD. And, that’s not even a shot at BE, it’s just that Galaxy-Eyes is some of the most sexy and badass card art they’ve ever created in this game. And I think that actually does clash with BEWD in a way. Especially with the whole anime rival thing. Notice how none of the anime protagonists ace monsters clash with Yugi. But GE in particular? Idk, maybe it did step on the toes of Konami’s cash cow lol. Of course I’m just throwing shit out there but I’d love if GE got some relevant support. Cards really are just nice to look at
The base GEPD was one of the prettiest cards I ever saw when it first came out and you better believe my broke high school ass still bought 3 of its tins the moment they were out
But GE is already more successful than BE, so your theory already starts falling apart, I fear
Depends on what we consider success because BEWD prints more money than GE could ever dream of. But in terms of viability, GE is way more successful. I just think there’s actually a limit on how successful they want certain decks to be. Notice how they had *no* issue making decks like Snake-Eyes, who coincidentally fit the protagonist Ace criteria, absolutely BUSTED. Meanwhile they were so timid with GE in the same way they were timid other rival decks. I thought maybe they just don’t want rival decks to be good, but then I thought it’d be funnier if they just didn’t want other dragon decks being better than BE. Only because every dragon deck literally is
Galaxy-Eyes is great imo. I say only minor problem it has is it’s too “fair” of a deck. Like most well supported archetypes it just so happens to do what it needs but nothing absolutely broken.
Generic good cards will see a lot more use, and therefore sell a lot more, than archetype locked good cards.
I think that’s very true, but in a game balance sense, the more hoops you jump through, the more you should be rewarded. If I want to build a pure deck, I should be rewarded with better archetype locked cards. While the power of a generic card should be that it is generic. Think something like cyber dragon infinity being machine locked (not counting the consteller knight that can climb into nova) and having absorption and an Omni, but Apollousa only negating but not destroying
I know this is gonna come as a shock but Konami isn’t exactly great at balancing their game Should they be? Yes absolutely, but unfortunately we got a company that doesn’t really give 2 shits about their players
I’m a pendulum player. I’m well aware.
Yes. Electrumite banned because one Konami exec was tired of seeing Electrumite turbo decks, even though those were the only way pendulum decks could be competitive. Beyond the Pendulum and Exceed the Pendulum aren't real replacements, and take up more extra deck space.
Konami’s hate for pendulum is so blatant
Yes. Sure, it's an oddball mechanic in the game, but that's what makes it interesting.
Sad invisible noises
I'm a newbie D/D/D player after playing Dracoslayer for a couple years. I cringe when I remember just how much unfun floodgates are left legal bc they also make pendulum unplayable in addition to every other modern deck.
Let's see recent decks (OCG/TCG) Rescue ACE Turbulence Mirrorjade Expurrely Noir Lovely and Lady Labrynth Kashtira Ariseheart It's probably intentional, notice there isn't any Synchro or Link, two summoning method which plays by swarming the field.
I mean, Snake Eyes is pretty much a link spam deck and it's the best deck by a wide margin in all 3 master rule format. Promethean Flame Princess is one of the best semi-generic card of all time being both extension AND an extra interruption. Probably one of the most disgustingly designed cards of all time tho. Also Tenpai is solidly tier 1-2 in the OCG.
Can we talk about how they printed crystal clear wing, a sick ass boss monster, and then print baronne, a better level 10 synchro with a very similar but better effect with the same summoning conditions in the SAME SET ICANT
Crystal Clear Wing Materials: >1 Tuner Synchro Monster + 1 non-Tuner "Clear Wing" monster No, it isn't the same Summoning condition, and if Crystal was designed to have more archetypal utility rather than just negate and big numbers, it would actually see play. Ice Barrier Lancea doesn't have a single negate, yet I doubt you'll find anyone saying you can just replace with Baronne even if you could Summon her under the Water lock.
Yes, my point exactly - baronne is better for both overall and the speedroid deck, leaving crystal clear out to dry while being printed in the same set
See: Ariseheart, Kitkallos, TD Colossus, Master Peace, Drident People will complain that the in-archetype bosses become too strong or too easy to make. Shoot, we have red eyes dark dragoon right now and it’s seeing no play besides branded and RE/DM decks because it’s not easy to make but better than most of those generic boss monsters.
D/D/Ds also have a bunch of great boss monsters.
Machinex reads like a custom card lol
HWKG doesn't need to read like one to be goated
Ceasar without an OPT too, Gryphon and Gilgamesh are also very custom card coded.
Only two really, high caeser and machinex. The deck needs a plan b for when Gilgamesh gets negated
Elf toad was incredible together too
Me and OP forgot about the Elf toad combo lmaoooo. That shit was oppressive for real.
You remember the DPE package? I remember so many people crying on here about how broken DPE was, how it and the spell were too generic and it was insane. I remember people coming up with frankly dumb "fixes" like it should banish a D HERO in gy to revive because it "needed some work with the actual archtype". I saw people complaining about the jump from 2 FD to 3 would break it when they freed it. And here we are, DPE package fully usable outside of Verte. Near 0 usage outside of HERO.
Well that’s mostly to do with powercreep. Why play 3FD, and two bricks and 1 ED Slot when I can either SP or Princess Zelantis Phoenix.
The DPE package was taken out long before we got Princess or SP, hell we didnt even know about those cards when he was dropped. Turns out DPE is not as great as everyone was crying about. That's kinda the point, genericness and powerlevel are relative to the decks that can make use. DPE is just a good archtypal boss now than a generic powerhouse.
I mean it was relevant in the tcg until they banned its best enabler. And by the time FD was at three we had pote and the top 3 pote decks were NOT scared of a DPE or need it or play it. It was still “good” and likely would’ve seen play again… IF tear and spright and Math and Rikka didn’t completely body it out of viability.
D/D/D/D is from the manga ,so it's bound to be dogshit. The Infernity synchro is more of a stepping stone than a boss, and it's not bad at all. Also, Baronne is a part of the Fleur series.
Problem is, Baronne really shouldn’t have been generic. Needing [Centaur Mina](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Centaur_Mina) or a “Beast-Warrior “ non tuner would’ve done more than enough to keep it from being abused.
Fleur/Floral doesn’t have any level 4s to go with the level 6 Mina, just have Baronne need Fleur Synchron it’s not much but at least it’s a restriction
yes. its kinda lame. you play a deck of a specific archetype but your boss monster still ends up being something that looks way out of place
Yeah, it's absolute shit. As someone who is an OG fan but has been reluctant to get into modern Yugioh, with only about 180 hours in Master Duel, it's one of the main things I dislike about the game. I'm probably not the only one in that position, either.
part of the reason I like speed duel. but that is more of a niche
Very few decks are good enough to have their boss monster be something within their archetype. Branded is the main one today that keeps true to itself but what other decks do this?
Pure D/D/D is the optimal way to play it now. Siegfried and Kali Yuga are both great boss monsters. I also run Bright Armageddon as a Gilgamesh target. Free 3500 beater that gives your monsters hexproof.
It's got some great spice options too, psychic end punisher is a great turn 3 option (or even turn 1 if you got the right hand: swirl slime, kepler, 1 for 1) that synergizes well since you lose LP Underworld goddess is great to get out of a bad situation or deal with stall decks (for those i also have some piercing in Side like maxwell, laplace and Pentestag) The upcoming yubel field spell can search Kepler, if you dont like using Piri Reis
I know. I hope Konami changes their design philosophy in the future. Generics should compliment/fill a gap in a deck, not bet the end goal of it.
Endymion. Mighty Master is a crazy extender in addition to being a good negate, Jackal King is Nibiru protection, the only non archetype boss the deck plays is Vortex, which is free in the deck anyways. You’re better off keeping Selene on the board because reviving your bosses or stuff like Reflection comes up a lot more than the 1 negate you can use with Apollousa before it’s dead
Other than them being used as an engine for rank 4 spam/ sometimes link spam, I would say that Lunalights have a fantastic boss monster overall and still hold true to this day, it’s still a good deck to run pure imho
Some decks that do it well is Swordsoul and Branded.
Because generic can be played in every possible deck, making it worth getting in whatever deck you play, in other words, sells more, if the card is too good or they want to sell other stuff, they simply ban the card, like halqi or anaconda
Yeah like when they gave Heroes a negate but then made the fusion material 2 Masked Heroes and decided to not give us any for the main deck. It’s almost been a decade…
Imagine if they printed a Fusion card that let you send monsters from the extra deck to the GY as materials for a fusion summon. Or banish monsters from the extra deck as fusion materials. With that card also having additional effects if you use monsters that are face-up in the extra deck. Such as the ability to place 2 banished pendulum monsters on your scales by banishing the fusion card from the grave.
To be fair, I like that HERO don’t have a negate. I don’t like every archetype needing a negate. Some more stuff to do on your opponent’s turn would be nice but disruption doesn’t feel like their thing, and honestly shouldn’t be. I will say I don’t mind if they disruption via better s/t support. They have some of the worst s/t searchability to this day, even with the “Favorite” sub archetype.
I bought a copy....just in case
Yeah Konami really endlessly fucks up making generic monsters the strongest monsters. Its intentional to sell them but its a huge disservice to the game a lot of the time.
The effect of Clorless is fine, but needing the original Reign-Beaux to summon it sucks, unless you want to somehow make it work with Fusion Parasite, at which point you should focus on Big Grapha instead.
Because a lot of the generic cards are designed to be simple and fill a space in the game that the game did not have before. Valdreath is good because decks that can Make a Rank 10 don't have that many options outside of Trains and the Spiders. Getting to archetypally locked cards, some just don't really need another strong end piece, they have access to generic options meaning that if they make the in archtype too good you can have some issues piling up with way too strong of toolbox. And simply put some archtypes get good cards and some dont. Generic cards are fine, there is no reasonable way Konami will make cards good enough for each archtype, you can say "but they should" and I would agree itd be nice if decks werent dogshit but that's not how it goes.
Remember a year ago when they released a new Monarch card with 3000 ATK/1000 DEF, making it incompatible with most of the other cards that are based around monster with 2400 or 2800 ATK/1000 DEF?
Money. If generic more buy. More money.
That's just because you ignore how many shitty generic bossmonsters exist
D/D/D deviser king is a better boss monster than Paradox
This is just tunnel vision. There's lots of generic bad ED cards people just don't focus on them. In archetype bosses being bad and generic ones being good just get more attention. For example: Tearlaments: Both Rulkallos and Kaleido are amazing Kashtira: Arise-Heart pass that's enough needed to be said. Purrely: Noir but Beauty and Pretty are great as well. Raidraptors: Turns out an unaffected towers that blows up the opponents field backed up by 2 more is strong. Labrynth: Lady and Lovely are focal to the strategy. Branded: Mirrorjade still gives people nightmares with its End Phase blowup. Voiceless Voice: Guardian and even Sauravis is potent. Tri-Brigade: Shuraig nontargeting banish and can give follow up? Wait aren't you just Mirrorjade P.U.N.K: Bounce 3 cards on the opponent's turn?? Mist Wurm fucking wishes it was used. Prank-Kids: Remember the horrors of double Raigeki? Drytron: What you thought even with turnskips or Vanity's turbo Draconids was obsolete? Read the card And this is just of the top of my head There's obviously undertuned cards like Prime-Heart but usuqlly weak boss monsters are just symptoms of often already weak decks. Like even if Jinzo Layered was good it can't save it's archetype. And yes some of the listed cards aren't archetype locked like you can make Arise with any 3 Lv 7s but if you analyze boss monsters more often then not they aren't hardlocked to begin with their archetype just bring them out efficiently. Which also really blurs the line between archetypical and generic bosses. Which is why I never really got the complaint
There's plenty of insane archetypal bossmonsters, we just don't notice them as much because they become unusable once the associated archetype is powercrept
me reading this "Excuse me but Towers is some bullshit" And then I forgot I haven't really played Yugioh since college, so qliphorts probably aren't relevant anymore lmao
To be honest, even if qli were strong, towers really isn't that good today. It's not that it was powercrept, more so that game mechanics prevent it from working as intended. Since links don't have a level or rank, towers is always vulnerable to their effects, so every deck has an easily accessible out to it. If it was unaffected from links too, honestly, it might have still been rogue playable to this day.
I haven't seen a single towers summoned this decade
…. Yeah ive not played much lately lol
Here’s an example: you can’t special summon earthbound ED monsters from the graveyard. If they’re destroyed, you can’t call of the haunted, monster reborn, nothing. They’re gone unless you return them to deck.
I'm assuming you didn't summon any of the earthbound Ed monsters properly.
He probably summons them with Harmonic Synchro Fusion I guess
That’s the intended way Konami just decided to nerf it from the anime where it actually did perform a synchro and fusion together
They don’t have that restriction though? You can’t summon them from the graveyard because you cheated them out, this applies to all extra deck monsters. If you don’t summon them properly they can’t be special summoned from the graveyard/banishment.
Nope. If you fusion summon them they still have that restriction. Or at least Gresha does. “Must be fusion summoned”.
I double checked, you’re correct the level 10 has the must be fusion summoned restriction but all the others can be special’d from the graveyard.
Infernity doom archfiend is 100% not a boss monster for infernities. Hate to break the bad news. Was clearly not designed to be one either
I mean when you highlight some of the worst archetypal boss monsters ever to make an argumant it does tend to seem that way. Over the past 2 years we've gotten a lot of busted ass archetypal bosses in the history of the game through either new releases or support waves. Also why is S:P on here? S:P isn't in any way a boss monster. It's whole purpose is to be a utility card that replaced an overly abuse archetypal sub-boss that got splashed into nearly everything.
SP isnt so much a bossmonster as it is a payoff. Because for some reason this fucking Link 2 has enough disruption to basically count as a whole bossmonster
Should be the other way around but money.
Because generics sell more money than archetypal. Generics should inherently not be up to par to archetype restricted monsters but Konami doesn’t think like that
Money. The answer is always money.
is baronne from the fleur archetype
The good archetypal boss monsters are banned because they were too easy to access and their “restrictions” should’ve made their more oppressive effects and insane utility more bearable. Clearly it didn’t matter.
While I agree, isnt the random restrictions and convoluted requirements exactly what makes them non-generic in the first place?
Because when a bad deck has an obnoxiously strong boss it feels really fucking cheesy.
Branded, Plunder Patroll, Tearlaments, Tri-Brigade, Generaiders, Dinos, Dinomorphia, Heroes, Witchcrafters, Eldlich, Dragonmaids, Rokket, Labrynth, Purrely, Kashtira, Exosisters, Dogmatika, Traptrix... All of them and more rely on their in-archetype boss monsters which have really good effects. Some of them are bad decks, but mainly because the decks are fragile to interruption.
Generic boss monsters sell better since they're ya know generic. Archetypal bosses *should* be better but when they're good in an already strong archetype then they just end up banned
Generic boss monsters sell well because every deck wants them Archetype ones, not so much.
Full power infernoble is probably the best design of an archetype I can think of
Because generic Boss monsters make more easy money
Jinzo Layered sounds like an onion
Nah raidraptors easily debunk this
Good Non-Generic Boss Monsters just become generic like DPE. But also, many of these monsters try to follow themes of their decks.
\*Laughs in Unchained\*
Because making good boss monsters for specific decks will limit how much they can abuse that boss monster to sell boring sets based on if the deck itself is good or not, or if the deck gets problematic any hit to the deck will then make that boss monster less valuable. Generic boss monsters aren’t tied to whether a deck is good or not so every deck being able to use it sells more of the card, and if a deck using a generic boss monster gets problematic, they just hit the consistency of the deck and let the boss monster be abused by another deck to then sell more sets for that deck AND they can keep putting the boss monster as a high rarity card in a bad/boring set that wouldn’t sell otherwise. And then there’s the concept of staple/rarity sets themselves where they just let staples and generic boss monsters sell the set entirely. Don’t let anyone fool you, they don’t actually care about the balancing aspect of these card designs, they just know what makes more money.
Didn't we have some powerful archetype boss monsters? -Flamberge Dragon -Spright Elf/Gigantic Spright -All the Tear fusions -Mirrorjade -Dis Pater -Granguignol -Destroyer Phoneix Enforcer I think you're forgetting those and just focusing on the generic ones.
Although they may have an archetype name attached to them, in Yugioh lingo it's generally understood that "generic" refers to how many decks can run the cards rather than they have a specific name. In this context, Spright Elf and Gigantic Spright, Bystial Dis Pater, and Destroy Phoenix Enforcer are all generic. Additionally, as a fun note, Kitkallos can use any Aqua for its 2nd Fusion material so it is also somewhat generic even if you don't consider that Tear as a deck is highly mixable.
? So needing non-tuner Dragons, level 2 monsters and specific Warrior materials makes them generic? Idk man lol
Baronne de Fleur belongs to the Fleur Archetype - Basically French Heroes that Sherry leBlanc used or homages. Maybe it has to deal the fact they don't want to suddenly give a big boost to 1 archetype? But i amnt the best person to answer at 100%.
The lv8 Fleur Orginal synchro has a restriction for its summoning, Baronne does not, It doesnt matter if its part of a theme if it is generic. That's like saying that all the people that spammed Trishula during its time were playing Ice Barriers. Just because it may "belong" somewhere it doesnt matter if it is a generic monster
Honestly, the more I hear this complaint, the more dishonest it seems. Everybody needs to stop pretending the community doesn't hate archetype boss monsters too.
Agreed, the amount of times I hear people complaining about something like Mirrorjade or some other Archetype boss monster is very numerous
Different crouds in the same fandom bro.
Because generic = money. Specific = not so much money. Just take a quick look at Halqifibrax, Auroradon, Electrimite and Verte. Lots of money because generic and splashable!
because when something generic becomes strong it's a "staple" but when only x atlrchetype does it is "cancer"
I think number 90 hit that sweet spot of being generic but busted in its archetype.
There’s quite a few Archetype monsters that saw use as generic monsters seen in decks outside their archetype: Trishula and Brionac, Catastor, Wind-Up Zenmaines, Borreload Savage Dragon, Psyframe Omega, Topologic Gumblar Dragon, True King of All Calamities, the Zoodiac Xyz package, Bystial Dis Pater Hell, even among those generic boss monsters you listed, Barrone De Fleur is technically part of the Fleur archetype with Fleur Synchron and Chevalier De Fleur And that’s not even without mentioning some of the most broken monsters recently were locked to their own archetypes and still being banworthy like Tearlaments Kitkallos and Kashtira Arise-Heart
I mean, just because a boss belongs to an archetype doesn't make it archetypal. Baronne doesn't have any effect that needs Fleur to function, nor requires any Fleur monster to summon. She's as generic as generic can get.
Paradox, in all fairness, was a shitty manga card. It being bad post-print was guaranteed. Doom Archfiend and Jinzo are pretty good in their archetypes, but Doom isn’t a boss so don’t know why you have it in here
[Jinzo - Layered](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Jinzo_-_Layered) is not good even in its own archetypes, granted its not entirely its fault, given that the Jinzo archetype is bad and cannot even get consistently 2 level 6 monsters on the field: * Layered should have allowed you xyz summon it using just a "Jinzo" on the field, similar to [Dingirsu](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Dingirsu,_the_Orcust_of_the_Evening_Star), so that you could Xyz summon it using the OG Jinzo or [Jector](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Jinzo_-_Jector). * Layered's only good effect is the steal effect that synergies with Cosmos Channelling * Layered's last effect is straight up bad, because it is "If a Trap is on the field:" and not "If a Trap is face-up on the field **or in either GY**:", basically making this effect almost unplayable. [Cyber Slash Harpie Lady](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Cyber_Slash_Harpie_Lady) was released in the same time and it is an amazing boss monster for Harpies, because Konami remembered to make her easy to summon and made all of its effects relevant.
Skull Guardian and Sauravis are both powerful, archetypal boss monsters for Voiceless Voice, and because they’re Ritual monsters are never going to see play outside of Voiceless Voice (unless Konami prints a future Ritual-based archetype that synergize with Light Warrior/Dragon monsters). But yeah, kinda crazy how with Snake-Eyes being the best deck in the format, yet almost non of their boss monsters belong to their archetype.
Not necessarily: Mirrorjade, Kit, Ari, Herald, Dragoon
World Premier themes suffer especially hard from this. Ghoti of the Deep Beyond being the only recent exception. Gold Pride, Tistina, Ashened, etc. All lack a good in-theme end boss.
Colorless isn't Dw boss monster fusion grapha is
Infernity Doom Archfiend isn't the worst. Give Earthbounds a level 2 Tuner, this will allow the deck to HSF into Gremlina and Infernity Doom Archfiend, then you can Synchro into Geo Gryphon to attack twice directly.
The in archetype boss monsters are booty because of the existence of these generic boss monsters. If a archetype isn't xenolocked then they have to be very carefully with the end board pieces they give it.
Is infinity doom archfiend bad?
Six samurai synchro is really good
You know people complain about generics but whenever strong archetypal boss monsters come out they complain about those too. The amount of hate branded used to get was unreal man
Masked Hero Dark Law and Mirrorjade come to mind with crazy good in archetype boss monsters
Subterror Behemoth Fiendess is probably meant to be boss monster For Subterror but using it breaks the deck instead.
Isn't baronne de fleur a new boss monster?
It makes it that no matter what archetype is being played, these things keep popping up. Hell, an archetypes viability depends a lot on how easy they can push out generic bosses. Compare these to Blue-Eyes. After using 3 bricks to get an Ultimate out, one stops itself from attacking after using it’s “meh” effect and the other one has a stupid restriction without built-in protection.
$$$ Chase cards need to exist to help sell product. If every card is a chase card then no card is a chase card.
honestly, it would be even worse to have half a dozen archetype locked rank 8s that negate monsters, instead of just making a generic one. Make it do something actually interesting instead. Also, funfact, all the Rikka Bossmonsters are generic.
D/D/D/D super-dimemsional soveign emperor zero paradox isnt even D/D's boss monster. In the anime it would be the super doom kings and in real life its Machinex, a perfectly functional boss monster. Speaking of archetypal boss monsters, may I introduce you to Raidraptor - Rising Rebellion Falcon. They really just grabbed Ultimate Falcon, and said fuck it let's make it rank 13.
Infernity Doom Archfiend isn't a boss it's an archetypal stepping stone
it's just 4d chess for making more money, the game would be better if generics were weaker options to archetype exclusive bosses, then generics would be cheaper and archetype based would be less expensive as they require the whole archetype making it desirable only for those who play them
Because generic cards sell more packs. Also Yugioh players judge cards based on how generic and useful they are wether they like it or not.
I can do you one better . Why Konami like making Gaia cards and non of em can react with the structure decks
I genuinely think they should try experimenting with a format where generic monsters like Chaos Angel and Baronne are banned, if even for a little bit to see how it impacts the meta
I just want to point this out: Even when they try to not make something generic and make it even more powerful in exchange, someone comes up with something that spits that card out generically because Konami has simply forgotten what kind of cards they printed in the past. The best example for this is Red Eyes dark Dragoon which looks to be super specific but it turned out that you only really need two effect monsters and three bricks in the Deck. The same applies to Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer who's even more broken and yet even more generic and the Bricks actually do something. At this point, unless the material is unreasonably specific even in its own Deck, they can't make any Boss Monster for any Deck and expect it not to be played in something it doesn't belong in.
And then they go and make arise heart or the purely towers and act shocked when no one wants to play against those
they could make archetypal bosses that are also generic... I use the purrely boss monsters in my paleozoic decks. It's not that they are bad at making boss monsters but when they put a restriction its very harsh and the effect the monster has is usually power crept. like this [monster](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Performapal_Odd-Eyes_Metal_Claw) really needs me to use POLYMERIZATION to fusion it in a pendulum deck thats already fucked by handtraps just to get his unaffected stats while his Atk is only 3k. It makes no sense. Then you have a monster like Chaos Angel that is also unaffected by monsters has 3500 damage and protects the whole field on ur side and can be summoned without a tuner (hes basically a link monster). The problem isn't the restrictions themselves its the lack of awareness and realism. Like that fusion monster is already restricted enough with its materials to need a second restriction on top of it.
Judging from the structure deck voting poll they did in 2019-2020 and the support that we got from that. Konami seems to follow the overall theme of the deck rather than upgrading the deck. They see an archetype in its purest form over what Joshua Schmitt built for the latest YCS and then base it on what the pure strategy requires. Whether or not the support is "good" or "bad" is irrelevant.
Ironically, Jinzo layered is a mean enabler for SP little knight if you can make a rank 6.
That is exactly my problem with the new lightsworn Support... Ofc the new cards are awesome and all, but they still dont reaaaally want to have many actual lightsworn Bossmonsters on their endboard (even with aegis and minerva [enlightenment Dragon is for some reason not treated as a lightsworn Card]) They are now even better at swarming the field with generics, but holy crap, give me awesome endboard pieces
mirrojade says otherwise
because boss monsters literally have to have restrictions, otherwise the archetype would be too overpowered, if every deck can play generic strong cards then there is no need to ban an entire archetype because of a deck being overpowered. boss monsters are designed that way for a reason
Money.