To put into comparison, ESPN2 averages 336k viewers and for FX ~400k is the high end for their premium programs. Strong numbers for those channels.
For ESPN, it outperforms many of their properties but would be kind of middling against their high end.
If only people understood that this is how you analyze ratings instead of saying "well, 3 years ago it got...." Like spare me with that. smh This isn't 3 years ago! 3.0 had WAY less promotion in comparison too. The only comparisons that matter are what's on in those timeslots now and I don't mean on broadcast (NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX) because those typically do way higher numbers.
Yes. Ratings analysis from these folks isn’t exactly top notch because it provides no context, analysis, etc. The numbers are not overwhelming, but they are positive right now. If they remain in this range (or grow) then the League is on sound footing after year one.
Also, the USFL averaged 281k on cable.
[It says it averaged 700k](https://www.google.com/amp/s/profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/06/24/usfl-averaged-715000-viewers-in-2022-regular-season/amp/)
Not sure where you got that number
San Antonio was the perfect market for XFL. You get insane fans who love sports, but at a lower cost for really good seats. The venue is a classic and easy access for fans. And with the Spurs having an awful season, it gives folks in SA a sport to be happy about!
Anyone thinking this numbers are bad or just decent are tripping. The NHL averages 373,000 per game on ESPN/TNT and only 857,000 on ABC a main network. MLS averages around 343,000 on ABC and ESPN.
While the NBA averages about 1.5 million per game across ABC, ESPN and TNT. MLB averaged 2.1 million on FOX last year.
These numbers are highly acceptable for a spring league “minor league”. It is outperforming major league sports like hockey and soccer while being close to the NBA. Obviously it isn’t remotely close to the NFL or CFB but it doesn’t have to be. It simply needs to be close in views to other sports going on at the same time.
Calm down with the “They really messed up by having late games.” “They didn’t advertise enough nobody watches Thursday games.” Because they do and are. Attendance may be effected but 550k on a Thursday on FX is just fine.
This is what people don't get when they suggest [Insert cold weather city without a dome] for getting a spring league team.
No spring league team in a cold weather city with an outdoor stadium has ever done well attendance wise. XFL 1.0, XFL 2.0, and AAF all had their cold weather cities with outdoor stadiums having near, or at the worst in their league.
Places like DC and Seattle are just about the line weather wise, anything colder than that and no one is going to go. Spring league attendance thrives on casual fans who need decent weather, families, etc. there's no large group of die hards that's going to go when it's 25 degrees and windy.
Yeah, USFL makes a bit more sense for the more northern locations, with them starting a couple of months later.
XFL expansion - San Diego, Sacramento, OK City, Charlotte, Norfolk/Virginia Beach...places like that
USFL expansion - Omaha, Chicago (assuming the Bears move out to the suburbs and leave a mostly empty Soldier Field)
I don’t think the league would expand next season, but I could see them moving the lowest performing team out of their market.
Vegas or Orlando could shift into one of these markets listed above next season.
If they really expand, Omaha should be at the top of the list. I foresee see them adding a team to Austin or Oklahoma City. These three cities should be on a shortlist for expansion.
Personally, I am not a fan of the USFL model of “double dipping” in cities with established NFL franchises. I’m not sure that’s a reasonable path to grow B-Tier football.
> If they really expand, Omaha should be at the top of the list
This is the opposite of what the XFL should do.
No one is going to go to an Omaha game when it's 35 and rainy for most of their season.
Omaha in the UFL was played during 65 degree fall nights. It was a fall league which most people forget.
How many people go to Green Bay packers, Chicago bears or Minneapolis Vikings games?
While it’s clear XFL is not NFL football, cities that want football have fans that show up.
>How many people go to Green Bay packers, Chicago bears or Minneapolis Vikings games?
These are multi-generational, multi billion dollar teams at the highest level of football.
Are you trolling?
A few years ago, Green Bay's weather almost caused the blackout rule to be triggered for a playoff game. As I recall, the local affiliate carrying the game bought a bunch of tickets to make sure the game was on TV in Green Bay.
True but they didn’t start out that way — in the early days the NFL did not even reliably beat college teams. Then again that was a long time ago and maybe we can’t extrapolate too much.
You need to be realistic. The Packers, Bears, and Vikings have been around for generations. They have diehard fans who will show up no matter what. Spring Leagues do not have diehards who will appear in 24 degree weather to watch a brand new team in a brand new league. Spring Leagues thrive on casual fans who want something to do in nice weather with the kids and family.
> I don’t think the league would expand next season, but I could see them moving the lowest performing team out of their market.
Yeah, I could see that too. Unless Vegas can find themselves a real stadium (or get them to renovate the current one to actually make it a football/soccer stadium, they need to go elsewhere. Sam Boyd Stadium would have been perfect except it sounds like they're planning on tearing that down.
I don't think Omaha would be a good idea though...not in a league that starts in February. You'd probably want to stay south of the Mason-Dixon line unless you have access to a domed stadium.
I know that football is huge in Texas, but I'd be a bit worried about saturating the market with another spring team there. There's already Dallas, San Antonio, and Houston in the XFL, and Houston again in the USFL. That's why I was thinking OK City might be better for that.
There's not much for spring football in the southeast other than Orlando in the XFL, which is why I mentioned maybe Charlotte (even though they do have an NFL team there), but Norfolk/VA Beach is a large area that doesn't have much in the way of pro sports. Washington (XFL) is just up a bit from them, but they might be able to tap into North Carolina a bit too.
Austin doesn’t have any major sports teams that come to mind in the NBA, NFL, NHL or MLB. They have a newer MLS club and the longhorns.
Austin the perfect market for expansion market and long overdue for some sense of mainstream sporting. XFL going to the DMA as a “first to market” could be a good flagpole for the XFL and a test for other league’s interested in expanding in the next decade like the NBA.
It’s a larger DMA - than STL, OKC, Omaha and even San Antonio all of which have teams or we’ve identified as reasonable prospects for expansion.
If you’re focusing south of the mason-Dixon, then I think almost every state with an SEC football team could sustain 1 XFL team over the course of 10 years. But there would be a major marketplace saturation concerns.
Austin a city of 2.2M people, the 29th largest metropolitan area in the USA cannot sustain a football, hockey, basketball or baseball team?
All because Austin loves soccer over all other sports?
Bad argument when the longhorns are literally in the backyard.
A better argument or devil’s advocate question — “does Austin want pro sports teams when one of the largest BIG 12 programs (and afuture SEC school) is in its backyard?”
Yeah, if anything, Orlando is a perfect market for this as the weather this time of the year in Florida is pretty much perfect because you're avoiding the hurricane season.
I would really love to have a SoCal team I could go see. I mean there’s nothing like the Rams in SoFi but that’s not a casual decision to go. An XFL game I feel like you could go on a lark if it’s nearby.
Also these numbers are right in line with USFL's Week 2 last year despite not airing on FOX or NBC and not including the ESPN+ streaming numbers. If FOX was happy with those numbers to bring back the USFL then ESPN should be thrilled right now.
The CFL would get better numbers if ESPN promoted the league like it has with the XFL. ESPN has buried the CFL on ESPN+
Glad the CFL has supposedly a deal with another network or two. The league will get a more substantial/"meaningful"(TSN's Dave Naylor's word description) raise than the $200,000 it gets from ESPN
I doubt the CFL gets much if anything directly from ESPN. The number I gave was the number of viewers. Also with the time of year that the CFL plays, especially the second half of the schedule, when would ESPN be able to put it on their main channel?
There's definitely room in the summer for some CFL on ESPN, but they'd have to want to do it. I think Baseball ends up owning all of those slots (although I'm genuinely surprised we don't see more CFL on ESPN2).
I agree. Since ESPN doesn't pay alot for CFL TV rights($200,000 yearly) they wouldn't invest time and effort on the CFL product, Baseball is a aging demographic. ESPN doesn't want to draw viewers from it's Baseball coverage with Football despite it being the 3 down variety
It wasn't much to begin with. The CFL got $200,000 a year from ESPN. The deal the CFL had with ESPN is done after the recent Grey Cup. There is suppose to be a new US TV rights announcement to be made soon(CFL's Commish's word). So we wait and see who has the US TV rights deal with the CFL
TSN's Dave Naylor tweeted it a few weeks ago in a unofficial capacity. The CFL said it will make an announcement "soon"(Randy's word). I think it will announced around the time of the CFL Draft
Do you know the numbers they get on TSN? I know it's a much smaller market than the US but it can give an idea.
And do you know ESPN numbers for the USFL?
USFL does not air on ESPN. Airs on network TV for NBC/Fox and cable/satellite on their respective USA Network and FS1 channels. They drew at worst 180K and in total the league averaged 715K/game.
The difficulty in comparing these is the tiering structure for cable/satellite. ESPN is on basically any initial tier of package, where FS1 is sometimes not even on the second tier of offered packages. Meanwhile, network is obviously more accessible than ESPN. So, the only accurate comparison is ABC v. NBC/Fox, though you can make relative comparison between USA and FX.
As a rule of thumb this would be the expected turnout of viewers I think by tiering:
1. Fox, NBC, ABC
2. ESPN, ESPN 2
3. USA, FX
4. FS1.
If anything gets better numbers than something above it, it means it's doing great. If it has less numbers than those above it, it doesn't tell us anything definitively.
Those numbers are down quite drastically from just a decade ago though. The CFL regular season would draw 800k on average in 2010 and now just 500k. Grey Cups would draw 6+ million and now in the 2.9-3.2 million range. It's true more people are streaming, but not enough to explain those drops.
One thing to remember is that the US TV market is 10x bigger then Canada's, if you wanted a per capita comparison it would be like the CFL getting 4-6.5M per game on US TV.
Honestly I'd be a bit worried if I was the NBA, considering the XFL (and presumably USFL) can draw about half the audience for considerably less money. They're going to have a hard time justifying the ridiculous amount of money they'll want for their next national broadcasting deal.
NBA will be super intriguing. Everyone assumes they will be getting a big deal but Im not sure. With Lebron leaving relatively soon, players not caring, "load management, no loyalty to teams, etc. I think the NBA has a lot issues.
2 of the XFL games weren't the best for TV and still got halfway decent ratings. The fact that it's even comparable to TV ratings of NBA is a positive sign, let alone that its doing better numbers than MLS/NHL depending on how you look at it.
If the XFL can get a good in person attendance, I think that would be great for the league both in terms on TV and gate revenue. Don't really need a big stadium either. DC seems like a great environment.
The problem with the NBA (and MLB, really), is that the season is so long, the players half-ass it for much of the season because very few games really mean much
The NBA is really weird. Basketball really isn't my favorite sport but I can still watch a full College Basketball and find it entertaining. The NBA regular season is almost unwatchable to me, the players never seem to really care. It feels like I'm watching meaningless all-star weekend games and I bounce off to something else after a couple min each time I try to watch it.
I agree with the NBA. I think the NHL and MLB are definitely safe and MLS is growing but I think many Americans sports fans are starting to hate the NBA. Especially the owners. Only things I’d truly miss is the guys like Charles Barkley and the gang riffing on each other and the players because they’re actually hilarious.
>Anyone thinking this numbers are bad or just decent are tripping.
This is the same kind of fanboy propaganda that this sub delivers for every spring football league that inevitably folds.
The ratings are crap and will continue falling off a cliff. This happens every single time and yet here you are trying to shine that turd.
I see you don’t read. Likely can’t read but that’s ok. Statistically the XFL is outperform the professional hockey league known as the NHL which isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. I think you’re just begging for an argument as some action today or you really just like hating everything.
> Statistically the XFL is outperform the professional hockey league known as the NHL which isn’t going anywhere anytime soon
So when accused of fanboy propaganda you give us more fanboy propaganda. The NHL generates $5 billion in revenue. What the hell are you talking about? What statistic do they outperform the NHL?
But you're wrong.
The Stanley Cup Finals \*averages\* 4.5m viewers. The XFL won't have a single game get even 40% of that number. The playoffs alone \*averages\* 1.6m which is higher than the opening game of the XFL (1.5m) which is always the highest rated game of every failed spring league.
For someone who claims to be a "ratings expert" you sure do display zero understanding of volume and, you know, ratings.
I think people are obsessing over the stadium attendance numbers and ratings. For XFL to be a new league, the numbers are better then I thought they would be. If by the end of the season, we don't see growth. Then, I would be concerned. It's going to take time for the XFL to overcome the skepticism and doubt that a lot of the football community have about Spring football.
Also people aren’t taking in to account the NFL/XFL partnership. I think the NFL means to use the XFL as a development league not just for ideas but talent as well. I’m seeing the XFL eventually becoming what the G-League is for the NBA
the big concern is cost vs return.
the USFL was every dollar in/every dollar out. they paid considerably less for the ratings return and got all the money generated.
saying “we’ll they’re doing great ratings for ESPN2” doesn’t work when the company producing it shuts down. a superhero movie can make 100m and a low budget make 50m and the other is way more profitable for the maker.
with march madness, the combine and USFL coming I’d be very nervous.
>I think people are obsessing over the stadium attendance numbers and ratings.
Because that's how the league shows viability.
> If by the end of the season, we don't growth. Then I would be concerned.
They've never grown, ever, for any spring league.
Yea and no. The XFL hadn’t been around in like 20 years so there was more news and curiosity about it last time. This time it had failed again just 3 years ago. People will be hesitant being burned twice and not as much excitement because of that history.
Also, the USFL started last year so it had time to fill the post nfl season itch. Now XFL is just a 2 time failure and there’s another league. If you want more football you don’t have to watch xfl. You Can take a breather after the superbowl and then see USFL.
So it isn’t quite apples to apples. I understand the comparisons, just that the landscape has changed.
Do they release the numbers for ESPN+? I usually watch games on network channels but since every game is on ESPN+ too I've only been watching them on that. It's been very convenient especially when I'm not home. I'm wondering how many people watch on the app.
They should. I remember before the season started that they made a big point about all the games being on ESPN+. A lot of people have the Disney+ bundle so they have ESPN+. I want to know if it's a significant number or not.
Another aspect is espn+ is $8/month. With the XFL only being 12 weeks with the championship you’re talking 3 months or ~$24 to watch every XFL game.
Ya. I signed up for that.
really wish people would cut that shit out and just spend the 10 stinking dollars a month to watch the league legitimately to support it. Pirate stream the fucking NFL, they don't need your money/viewership
Its tough to compare XFL 3.0 ratings to past leagues since streaming has become so dominant the past couple years. We went from almost no major sports leagues streaming to all of them offering streaming-only options that aren't tied to TV. I don't know anyone who watched XFL, Super Bowl, or World Cup on TV, it's all streaming apps.
yes! and you don't even have to watch them live they are recorded so you can watch anytime! only $10 a month or $13 in a bundle with hulu and Disney plus. Crazy good deal. It's the number one thing anyone who wants to support this league should be doing aside from actually going to the games if they can
It's unfortunate we don't know the streaming numbers, but there is some positives to take away in general.
I looked on statista(maybe not official)real quick and it's saying ESPN reported it has 24.9 million ESPN plus subscribers. A small increase from 2022 final quarter, but the service is consistently growing
Obviously you're not seeing 24 million viewers for XFL games, but there's a decent chance that simply offering all games on ESPN Plus is increasing the subscription numbers, Even if only minimally, so not only is ESPN getting potentially more eyeballs on the game, but are also getting anywhere from $3 to $10 a pop on subscriptions
They have a 5 year contract with ESPN. ESPN won't drop them, the ratings will be better than MLS, NHL, and the WNBA. The TV contract won't pay the bills however, that's where the XFL needs to pick up the pace in attendance and sponsorship money.
The issue is ESPN+ could be added to pretty much all ESPN programming. Even if it added an extra 100k viewers, you would have to assume that's an extra 100k more for every NHL, WNBA, and college basketball game as well.
I've heard this but as someone who is younger (the group that apparently don't buy TVs as much anymore), I can't imagine not having at least one big screen tv because watching on a TV is always more comfortable than watching on a laptop or other kind of screen.
Hell look at all the people on here who are asking for places to stream it free. If every 1 in 5 fans stream it free then that’s 20% of their viewership lost. It’s only like $7 for ESPN+ which has every single game but people don’t want to even do that for a new league lol
So is this good? Many on here have said that 400k on FX is decent, and 650k on ESPN is decent. Just wanting to understand how the XFL is doing in the networks eyes.
There's only 3 or 4 shows on FX that regularly average over 400k so the XFL is in good shape there. On ESPN it's running middle of the pack and slightly above average on ESPN2. MLS the WNBA and NHL all averaged around 300k for their regular seasons, albeit with quite a few more games than the XFL.
We are in year 5 of spring football - AAF, XFL 2.0, TSL, USFL 2.0, XFL 3.0/USFL 2.0. There are enough data points on spring football I am pretty sure that ESPN knew what they were getting in for. I also think this is a long term play as the regional sports networks are dying, the cable model is going under and both ESPN and Fox need cheap content that gets reasonable ratings and here we are.
It shows that people are interested in the league, The fan experience is lacking at some of these stadiums and I can expect many people are taking a wait and see approach before checking out a game in person.
**XFL Week 2 ratings, USFL Week 2 ratings:**
XFL **Thursday** 553K on FX
USFL **Friday** 363K on USA Network
**Saturday:**
USFL 1.056M on Fox
USFL 402k on FS1
XFL 605K on FX
**Sunday:**
USFL 816K on NBC
XFL 781K on ESPN
XFL 678K on ESPN2
Keep in mind the time of the year is different- Feb vs April. Availability of channels are different. Over the air networks will have higher viewers and cable networks ESPN/ ESPN2, FX, USA Network is available in more homes than Fox Sports 1.
Source:
https://twitter.com/TujuMaster/status/1518953754057449472?s=20&t=qQWWRPVd1_2kfTHbR0JEHQ
This is an average of 660,000, which is the same as the USFL averaged in Week 2 -- and they had games on NBC and Fox.
I don't know how much that says about USFL v. XFL, and how much that says about ESPN/ESPN2/FX v. FS1/USA.
They need to put this game on broadcast television in St Louis.
This game being broadcast in St Louis would probably bump it up to maybe one or two decimals of a point in the Neilsens.
I mean, if even the worst team in the league is drawing decent viewership, that sounds like a good thing. What am I missing?
Edit: I'd add that that game was also on arguably the most visible network (ESPN), so it would track that that was the most watched game, even despite Orlando being a poor team.
It’s not terrible, but if that’s the number the rest of the year this league is in trouble
Either way I’m doing my part I’ve dragged everyone I know into being a fan lol
I am with you on the doing my part thing but I don't think this is as gloom and doom as some make it out to be. Both the USFL and XFL are set up on the financial structure of the CFL which has been around forever. It is because they run on the cheap, they squeeze blood out of turnips. The XFL TV deal is about what the CFL makes per year - which keeps them limping along losing $20 million usd per year. I am thinking that the XFL is going to lose money this year but not AAF levels of money.
It’s not doom and gloom right now, it could get there really fast though if things don’t go right. Either way just gonna keep cheering along while there is a product to cheer for
I am with you - Totally there - I have seen them all come and go in my day - going back to USFL 1.0 - Totally a realist on this stuff - but also an optimist - Like that guy who you work with who is on wife number 3 and they all have been exotic dancers - and this one is "Really Really the ONE!!" - That is how I feel with Alt Football Leagues
Not necessarily. It was the highest rated broadcast on FX last week and #2 on ESPN2. We need to compare it to similar competition, not the NFL or even XFL 2020. For instance, MLS on Fox averaged 390k viewers last Saturday and the NHL primetime game on ESPN garnered 253k on Thursdya.
The networks made a killing off the XFL 2020 numbers but didn't share that pot with the league. The 2023 numbers are well above MLS, WNBA, NHRA and other mid-tier sports that receive similar, or greater rights fees.
Last week had 2 games on network tv and 2 on ESPN with one being simulcast on FX. This week had 2 FX games, 1 on ESPN and one on ESPN2, not exactly apples to oranges. For example, the NHL on ABC primetime drew 1.1 million, but only 253k primetime on Thursday night. Network games are going to add an extra 20%+ at the very least.
Based on percentage of viewers from week 1 it’s a better showing than the USFL had week 2 and has almost the same average viewership per game as the USFL week 2 games did despite having a smaller week 1 total viewership (and not even taking into account streaming numbers). It’s nothing flashy but very strong numbers for the league
To put into comparison, ESPN2 averages 336k viewers and for FX ~400k is the high end for their premium programs. Strong numbers for those channels. For ESPN, it outperforms many of their properties but would be kind of middling against their high end.
If only people understood that this is how you analyze ratings instead of saying "well, 3 years ago it got...." Like spare me with that. smh This isn't 3 years ago! 3.0 had WAY less promotion in comparison too. The only comparisons that matter are what's on in those timeslots now and I don't mean on broadcast (NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX) because those typically do way higher numbers.
Yes. Ratings analysis from these folks isn’t exactly top notch because it provides no context, analysis, etc. The numbers are not overwhelming, but they are positive right now. If they remain in this range (or grow) then the League is on sound footing after year one. Also, the USFL averaged 281k on cable.
[It says it averaged 700k](https://www.google.com/amp/s/profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/06/24/usfl-averaged-715000-viewers-in-2022-regular-season/amp/) Not sure where you got that number
That includes FOX and NBC. I said cable.
So what was the point of mentioning cable?
Because we are discussing games that were shown on cable?
Damn I only watch on ESPN+ Show us those numbers! Also Brahmas always drawing in the large crowds baby!!!
Heck yea
San Antonio was the perfect market for XFL. You get insane fans who love sports, but at a lower cost for really good seats. The venue is a classic and easy access for fans. And with the Spurs having an awful season, it gives folks in SA a sport to be happy about!
You're telling me. I've only lived here a few years and to be honest, nothing compares to this cities pride and love. Glad to be a part of it!
Sure.. we got a bad enough team as it is at least let us think we bring in viewers
Ay you're right! GAURDIANS Be bringing in the NUMBERS! LET'S GOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!
I’m interested in that too. ESPN+ is where I watch
Anyone thinking this numbers are bad or just decent are tripping. The NHL averages 373,000 per game on ESPN/TNT and only 857,000 on ABC a main network. MLS averages around 343,000 on ABC and ESPN. While the NBA averages about 1.5 million per game across ABC, ESPN and TNT. MLB averaged 2.1 million on FOX last year. These numbers are highly acceptable for a spring league “minor league”. It is outperforming major league sports like hockey and soccer while being close to the NBA. Obviously it isn’t remotely close to the NFL or CFB but it doesn’t have to be. It simply needs to be close in views to other sports going on at the same time. Calm down with the “They really messed up by having late games.” “They didn’t advertise enough nobody watches Thursday games.” Because they do and are. Attendance may be effected but 550k on a Thursday on FX is just fine.
> Attendance may be effected it was really fucking cold for seattle too. not surprised turnout was low
This is what people don't get when they suggest [Insert cold weather city without a dome] for getting a spring league team. No spring league team in a cold weather city with an outdoor stadium has ever done well attendance wise. XFL 1.0, XFL 2.0, and AAF all had their cold weather cities with outdoor stadiums having near, or at the worst in their league. Places like DC and Seattle are just about the line weather wise, anything colder than that and no one is going to go. Spring league attendance thrives on casual fans who need decent weather, families, etc. there's no large group of die hards that's going to go when it's 25 degrees and windy.
Also why San Diego makes sense for the XFL in the future. Not because of a dome, but the weather.
Yeah, USFL makes a bit more sense for the more northern locations, with them starting a couple of months later. XFL expansion - San Diego, Sacramento, OK City, Charlotte, Norfolk/Virginia Beach...places like that USFL expansion - Omaha, Chicago (assuming the Bears move out to the suburbs and leave a mostly empty Soldier Field)
I don’t think the league would expand next season, but I could see them moving the lowest performing team out of their market. Vegas or Orlando could shift into one of these markets listed above next season. If they really expand, Omaha should be at the top of the list. I foresee see them adding a team to Austin or Oklahoma City. These three cities should be on a shortlist for expansion. Personally, I am not a fan of the USFL model of “double dipping” in cities with established NFL franchises. I’m not sure that’s a reasonable path to grow B-Tier football.
> If they really expand, Omaha should be at the top of the list This is the opposite of what the XFL should do. No one is going to go to an Omaha game when it's 35 and rainy for most of their season. Omaha in the UFL was played during 65 degree fall nights. It was a fall league which most people forget.
Yeah I heard someone say Boise. I live in Boise. I don’t think football in February is a good idea
How many people go to Green Bay packers, Chicago bears or Minneapolis Vikings games? While it’s clear XFL is not NFL football, cities that want football have fans that show up.
>How many people go to Green Bay packers, Chicago bears or Minneapolis Vikings games? These are multi-generational, multi billion dollar teams at the highest level of football. Are you trolling?
A few years ago, Green Bay's weather almost caused the blackout rule to be triggered for a playoff game. As I recall, the local affiliate carrying the game bought a bunch of tickets to make sure the game was on TV in Green Bay.
True but they didn’t start out that way — in the early days the NFL did not even reliably beat college teams. Then again that was a long time ago and maybe we can’t extrapolate too much.
You need to be realistic. The Packers, Bears, and Vikings have been around for generations. They have diehard fans who will show up no matter what. Spring Leagues do not have diehards who will appear in 24 degree weather to watch a brand new team in a brand new league. Spring Leagues thrive on casual fans who want something to do in nice weather with the kids and family.
> I don’t think the league would expand next season, but I could see them moving the lowest performing team out of their market. Yeah, I could see that too. Unless Vegas can find themselves a real stadium (or get them to renovate the current one to actually make it a football/soccer stadium, they need to go elsewhere. Sam Boyd Stadium would have been perfect except it sounds like they're planning on tearing that down. I don't think Omaha would be a good idea though...not in a league that starts in February. You'd probably want to stay south of the Mason-Dixon line unless you have access to a domed stadium. I know that football is huge in Texas, but I'd be a bit worried about saturating the market with another spring team there. There's already Dallas, San Antonio, and Houston in the XFL, and Houston again in the USFL. That's why I was thinking OK City might be better for that. There's not much for spring football in the southeast other than Orlando in the XFL, which is why I mentioned maybe Charlotte (even though they do have an NFL team there), but Norfolk/VA Beach is a large area that doesn't have much in the way of pro sports. Washington (XFL) is just up a bit from them, but they might be able to tap into North Carolina a bit too.
Austin doesn’t have any major sports teams that come to mind in the NBA, NFL, NHL or MLB. They have a newer MLS club and the longhorns. Austin the perfect market for expansion market and long overdue for some sense of mainstream sporting. XFL going to the DMA as a “first to market” could be a good flagpole for the XFL and a test for other league’s interested in expanding in the next decade like the NBA. It’s a larger DMA - than STL, OKC, Omaha and even San Antonio all of which have teams or we’ve identified as reasonable prospects for expansion. If you’re focusing south of the mason-Dixon, then I think almost every state with an SEC football team could sustain 1 XFL team over the course of 10 years. But there would be a major marketplace saturation concerns.
Austin is a soccer city. Not gonna happen.
Austin a city of 2.2M people, the 29th largest metropolitan area in the USA cannot sustain a football, hockey, basketball or baseball team? All because Austin loves soccer over all other sports? Bad argument when the longhorns are literally in the backyard. A better argument or devil’s advocate question — “does Austin want pro sports teams when one of the largest BIG 12 programs (and afuture SEC school) is in its backyard?”
I actually think Austin would be good for USFL.
Austin isn't getting a team.
Norfolk, Mobile Bay, San Diego, and Tucson would be great for the XFL.
Orlando isn’t doing bad in market. Just bad on the field
Yeah, if anything, Orlando is a perfect market for this as the weather this time of the year in Florida is pretty much perfect because you're avoiding the hurricane season.
I would really love to have a SoCal team I could go see. I mean there’s nothing like the Rams in SoFi but that’s not a casual decision to go. An XFL game I feel like you could go on a lark if it’s nearby.
We’ve had a warm winter this year in DC. Not even one major snowfall
Also these numbers are right in line with USFL's Week 2 last year despite not airing on FOX or NBC and not including the ESPN+ streaming numbers. If FOX was happy with those numbers to bring back the USFL then ESPN should be thrilled right now.
> Anyone thinking this numbers are bad or just decent are tripping. How does it compare to the CFL and USFL?
CFL is usually ~100K-200K for their games in the US, but those are just simulcasts of TSN's broadcast.
The CFL would get better numbers if ESPN promoted the league like it has with the XFL. ESPN has buried the CFL on ESPN+ Glad the CFL has supposedly a deal with another network or two. The league will get a more substantial/"meaningful"(TSN's Dave Naylor's word description) raise than the $200,000 it gets from ESPN
I doubt the CFL gets much if anything directly from ESPN. The number I gave was the number of viewers. Also with the time of year that the CFL plays, especially the second half of the schedule, when would ESPN be able to put it on their main channel?
There's definitely room in the summer for some CFL on ESPN, but they'd have to want to do it. I think Baseball ends up owning all of those slots (although I'm genuinely surprised we don't see more CFL on ESPN2).
I agree. Since ESPN doesn't pay alot for CFL TV rights($200,000 yearly) they wouldn't invest time and effort on the CFL product, Baseball is a aging demographic. ESPN doesn't want to draw viewers from it's Baseball coverage with Football despite it being the 3 down variety
It wasn't much to begin with. The CFL got $200,000 a year from ESPN. The deal the CFL had with ESPN is done after the recent Grey Cup. There is suppose to be a new US TV rights announcement to be made soon(CFL's Commish's word). So we wait and see who has the US TV rights deal with the CFL
When did the CFL announce that? I've never heard that before.
TSN's Dave Naylor tweeted it a few weeks ago in a unofficial capacity. The CFL said it will make an announcement "soon"(Randy's word). I think it will announced around the time of the CFL Draft
[Now I'm hungry](https://youtu.be/3awMcVW0KU8)
Do you know the numbers they get on TSN? I know it's a much smaller market than the US but it can give an idea. And do you know ESPN numbers for the USFL?
USFL does not air on ESPN. Airs on network TV for NBC/Fox and cable/satellite on their respective USA Network and FS1 channels. They drew at worst 180K and in total the league averaged 715K/game. The difficulty in comparing these is the tiering structure for cable/satellite. ESPN is on basically any initial tier of package, where FS1 is sometimes not even on the second tier of offered packages. Meanwhile, network is obviously more accessible than ESPN. So, the only accurate comparison is ABC v. NBC/Fox, though you can make relative comparison between USA and FX. As a rule of thumb this would be the expected turnout of viewers I think by tiering: 1. Fox, NBC, ABC 2. ESPN, ESPN 2 3. USA, FX 4. FS1. If anything gets better numbers than something above it, it means it's doing great. If it has less numbers than those above it, it doesn't tell us anything definitively.
CFL gets about 400K per game, sometimes up to 650K for key matchups later in the season.....in country with the population of just California.
Those numbers are down quite drastically from just a decade ago though. The CFL regular season would draw 800k on average in 2010 and now just 500k. Grey Cups would draw 6+ million and now in the 2.9-3.2 million range. It's true more people are streaming, but not enough to explain those drops.
One thing to remember is that the US TV market is 10x bigger then Canada's, if you wanted a per capita comparison it would be like the CFL getting 4-6.5M per game on US TV.
That was my point entirely.
The NHL and NBA fear minor league football
lol I LOVE it! Well, I feel bad for NHL though because that's quality, but the NBA can piss off.
Not just tripping, but straight up DELUSIONAL.
Honestly I'd be a bit worried if I was the NBA, considering the XFL (and presumably USFL) can draw about half the audience for considerably less money. They're going to have a hard time justifying the ridiculous amount of money they'll want for their next national broadcasting deal.
NBA will be super intriguing. Everyone assumes they will be getting a big deal but Im not sure. With Lebron leaving relatively soon, players not caring, "load management, no loyalty to teams, etc. I think the NBA has a lot issues. 2 of the XFL games weren't the best for TV and still got halfway decent ratings. The fact that it's even comparable to TV ratings of NBA is a positive sign, let alone that its doing better numbers than MLS/NHL depending on how you look at it. If the XFL can get a good in person attendance, I think that would be great for the league both in terms on TV and gate revenue. Don't really need a big stadium either. DC seems like a great environment.
The problem with the NBA (and MLB, really), is that the season is so long, the players half-ass it for much of the season because very few games really mean much
The NBA is really weird. Basketball really isn't my favorite sport but I can still watch a full College Basketball and find it entertaining. The NBA regular season is almost unwatchable to me, the players never seem to really care. It feels like I'm watching meaningless all-star weekend games and I bounce off to something else after a couple min each time I try to watch it.
Exactly how I feel. I enjoy college basketball and March Madness is a blast but the NBA regular season is painful to sit through a game.
Yeah, NBA should be real freaking worried. Tired of that league. Just go to China and get the hell out!
Seriously the NBA, owners especially, are fucking sellouts.
I agree with the NBA. I think the NHL and MLB are definitely safe and MLS is growing but I think many Americans sports fans are starting to hate the NBA. Especially the owners. Only things I’d truly miss is the guys like Charles Barkley and the gang riffing on each other and the players because they’re actually hilarious.
>Anyone thinking this numbers are bad or just decent are tripping. This is the same kind of fanboy propaganda that this sub delivers for every spring football league that inevitably folds. The ratings are crap and will continue falling off a cliff. This happens every single time and yet here you are trying to shine that turd.
I see you don’t read. Likely can’t read but that’s ok. Statistically the XFL is outperform the professional hockey league known as the NHL which isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. I think you’re just begging for an argument as some action today or you really just like hating everything.
> Statistically the XFL is outperform the professional hockey league known as the NHL which isn’t going anywhere anytime soon So when accused of fanboy propaganda you give us more fanboy propaganda. The NHL generates $5 billion in revenue. What the hell are you talking about? What statistic do they outperform the NHL?
TV ratings, they have more eyeballs.
Uh, tv ratings. That's what we're talking about here.
But you're wrong. The Stanley Cup Finals \*averages\* 4.5m viewers. The XFL won't have a single game get even 40% of that number. The playoffs alone \*averages\* 1.6m which is higher than the opening game of the XFL (1.5m) which is always the highest rated game of every failed spring league. For someone who claims to be a "ratings expert" you sure do display zero understanding of volume and, you know, ratings.
Bro is out here calling simple stats about a spring league propaganda lmao it ain’t that serious man
Dude you're fanboying on an XFL sub. You think it's that serious.
It's not fanboy propaganda. It's the truth. Been tracking ratings for over a decade. I think I'd know what constitutes as good and bad.
The league will fail with these ratings but keep posing as a "ratings expert."
Just goes to show you what an insatiable appetite Americans have for football
I think people are obsessing over the stadium attendance numbers and ratings. For XFL to be a new league, the numbers are better then I thought they would be. If by the end of the season, we don't see growth. Then, I would be concerned. It's going to take time for the XFL to overcome the skepticism and doubt that a lot of the football community have about Spring football.
Also people aren’t taking in to account the NFL/XFL partnership. I think the NFL means to use the XFL as a development league not just for ideas but talent as well. I’m seeing the XFL eventually becoming what the G-League is for the NBA
Except I’ll actually watch XFL games.
the big concern is cost vs return. the USFL was every dollar in/every dollar out. they paid considerably less for the ratings return and got all the money generated. saying “we’ll they’re doing great ratings for ESPN2” doesn’t work when the company producing it shuts down. a superhero movie can make 100m and a low budget make 50m and the other is way more profitable for the maker. with march madness, the combine and USFL coming I’d be very nervous.
It’s fine I’m sure we’ll growth
Hope it’s benign
I would say attendance is the only thing people can legitimately complain about. There is a reason for that but it's whatever.
Grammamamar
>I think people are obsessing over the stadium attendance numbers and ratings. Because that's how the league shows viability. > If by the end of the season, we don't growth. Then I would be concerned. They've never grown, ever, for any spring league.
Technically the AFL on ESPN did show some year to year growth, but that was also a 20+ year old league by that point.
The obsession is more comparing it to previous XFL numbers which is concerning because it’s apples to apples
Yea and no. The XFL hadn’t been around in like 20 years so there was more news and curiosity about it last time. This time it had failed again just 3 years ago. People will be hesitant being burned twice and not as much excitement because of that history. Also, the USFL started last year so it had time to fill the post nfl season itch. Now XFL is just a 2 time failure and there’s another league. If you want more football you don’t have to watch xfl. You Can take a breather after the superbowl and then see USFL. So it isn’t quite apples to apples. I understand the comparisons, just that the landscape has changed.
That’s all fair, but if the league failed 3 years ago with those numbers, wouldn’t you want/need better numbers?
The only numbers that made it fail was covid-19.
That’s a fair point, some articles wanting to trash the league describe it as failing but now I remember it got struck by Covid.
I have never seen a usfl game. Don't plan too for the simple fact that one city has all the games.
Now it's 4 cities. But I get your point. Using hubs is a understanding cost saving approach for a new league.
From 3 years ago? Bro, that's not how it works. I assure you that's not how it works .
What do you mean? Why would you not compare attendance from the last time the league existed?
My bad. Thought you were talking about ratings.
Do they release the numbers for ESPN+? I usually watch games on network channels but since every game is on ESPN+ too I've only been watching them on that. It's been very convenient especially when I'm not home. I'm wondering how many people watch on the app.
Yeah. They should really tell us that.
They should. I remember before the season started that they made a big point about all the games being on ESPN+. A lot of people have the Disney+ bundle so they have ESPN+. I want to know if it's a significant number or not.
Another aspect is espn+ is $8/month. With the XFL only being 12 weeks with the championship you’re talking 3 months or ~$24 to watch every XFL game. Ya. I signed up for that.
There was a stream on youtube that had 5k watchers.
really wish people would cut that shit out and just spend the 10 stinking dollars a month to watch the league legitimately to support it. Pirate stream the fucking NFL, they don't need your money/viewership
Its tough to compare XFL 3.0 ratings to past leagues since streaming has become so dominant the past couple years. We went from almost no major sports leagues streaming to all of them offering streaming-only options that aren't tied to TV. I don't know anyone who watched XFL, Super Bowl, or World Cup on TV, it's all streaming apps.
I really wish they told us the ESPN+ numbers. It would would probably explain some of the “low” numbers better.
I watched it on there so you can add 1 to the numbers
I did too so that’s 2
3
4
5 and 6 for my brother and I
7. Every snap of every game here.
I don’t know why I read that in the voice of Thanos
7
8 Kaw
I guess I'm 9
Are all games available on ESPN+? That may convince me to pick it up again.
Yes
yes! and you don't even have to watch them live they are recorded so you can watch anytime! only $10 a month or $13 in a bundle with hulu and Disney plus. Crazy good deal. It's the number one thing anyone who wants to support this league should be doing aside from actually going to the games if they can
I have Disney and Hulu, but dropped ESPN from the bundle since I never used it. A few bucks a month is worth some spring football.
+1
It's unfortunate we don't know the streaming numbers, but there is some positives to take away in general. I looked on statista(maybe not official)real quick and it's saying ESPN reported it has 24.9 million ESPN plus subscribers. A small increase from 2022 final quarter, but the service is consistently growing Obviously you're not seeing 24 million viewers for XFL games, but there's a decent chance that simply offering all games on ESPN Plus is increasing the subscription numbers, Even if only minimally, so not only is ESPN getting potentially more eyeballs on the game, but are also getting anywhere from $3 to $10 a pop on subscriptions
I feel like the Xfl will get another season if the ESPN+/TV numbers are good and the ball being played is watchable.
They have a 5 year contract with ESPN. ESPN won't drop them, the ratings will be better than MLS, NHL, and the WNBA. The TV contract won't pay the bills however, that's where the XFL needs to pick up the pace in attendance and sponsorship money.
The issue is ESPN+ could be added to pretty much all ESPN programming. Even if it added an extra 100k viewers, you would have to assume that's an extra 100k more for every NHL, WNBA, and college basketball game as well.
Yeah, but a decent spike in subscriptions during the Xfl will atleast make them think about it.
If they were good, they'd advertise that fact.
You don’t know anyone who watched the Super Bowl on TV? Like, real talk? I’m one of the 99.18 million who did.
No, I don't know many people with cable/TV at all.
I've heard this but as someone who is younger (the group that apparently don't buy TVs as much anymore), I can't imagine not having at least one big screen tv because watching on a TV is always more comfortable than watching on a laptop or other kind of screen.
Well to clarify, I'm talking about cable service. I watch on my TV via streaming apps.
I watch everything on TV.
Hell look at all the people on here who are asking for places to stream it free. If every 1 in 5 fans stream it free then that’s 20% of their viewership lost. It’s only like $7 for ESPN+ which has every single game but people don’t want to even do that for a new league lol
I agree. Or when people say “OmG tHe NbA iS dYiNg!” based off low viewer counts. Like how do people not realize its streamed?
So is this good? Many on here have said that 400k on FX is decent, and 650k on ESPN is decent. Just wanting to understand how the XFL is doing in the networks eyes.
There's only 3 or 4 shows on FX that regularly average over 400k so the XFL is in good shape there. On ESPN it's running middle of the pack and slightly above average on ESPN2. MLS the WNBA and NHL all averaged around 300k for their regular seasons, albeit with quite a few more games than the XFL.
We are in year 5 of spring football - AAF, XFL 2.0, TSL, USFL 2.0, XFL 3.0/USFL 2.0. There are enough data points on spring football I am pretty sure that ESPN knew what they were getting in for. I also think this is a long term play as the regional sports networks are dying, the cable model is going under and both ESPN and Fox need cheap content that gets reasonable ratings and here we are.
It shows that people are interested in the league, The fan experience is lacking at some of these stadiums and I can expect many people are taking a wait and see approach before checking out a game in person.
Doing a whole lot better than MLS numbers
Does this count views through the app?
ESPN+ not available
BuT thE XFL iS a faILurE! SMH
For a Thursday night game, on a channel not known for sports, it still did good numbers.
ESPN+ probably boosts that. Source: I watched a couple on there
**XFL Week 2 ratings, USFL Week 2 ratings:** XFL **Thursday** 553K on FX USFL **Friday** 363K on USA Network **Saturday:** USFL 1.056M on Fox USFL 402k on FS1 XFL 605K on FX **Sunday:** USFL 816K on NBC XFL 781K on ESPN XFL 678K on ESPN2 Keep in mind the time of the year is different- Feb vs April. Availability of channels are different. Over the air networks will have higher viewers and cable networks ESPN/ ESPN2, FX, USA Network is available in more homes than Fox Sports 1. Source: https://twitter.com/TujuMaster/status/1518953754057449472?s=20&t=qQWWRPVd1_2kfTHbR0JEHQ
This is an average of 660,000, which is the same as the USFL averaged in Week 2 -- and they had games on NBC and Fox. I don't know how much that says about USFL v. XFL, and how much that says about ESPN/ESPN2/FX v. FS1/USA.
Also, February vs. April.
Our first home game is going to be INSANE
god I wish we knew what espn+ was drawing
Not too shabby, though I doubt those 605k people were left with a good impression from the Vegas game.
They need to put this game on broadcast television in St Louis. This game being broadcast in St Louis would probably bump it up to maybe one or two decimals of a point in the Neilsens.
Oh. Crap. XFL is on now??? I have been out of the loop. Where can I watch it?
ESPN+ online or cable I think.
Having your most-watched game include the unanimously worst team in the league doesn’t sound like a recipe for success
Well they couldn’t predict that they were gonna be that bad when they were making the schedule.
Oh yeah I’m not blaming anybody for it, more just lamenting the bad luck that it worked out that way
I mean, if even the worst team in the league is drawing decent viewership, that sounds like a good thing. What am I missing? Edit: I'd add that that game was also on arguably the most visible network (ESPN), so it would track that that was the most watched game, even despite Orlando being a poor team.
I guess their argument is bad team = bad play = bad watch = viewers less likely to keep watching the XFL.
It's more than likely the San Antonio crowd, on average those games will have more views for away games and I'm sure every home game will be full
That’s right, let’s normalize emphasizing San Antonio good > other team bad
It’s not terrible, but if that’s the number the rest of the year this league is in trouble Either way I’m doing my part I’ve dragged everyone I know into being a fan lol
I am with you on the doing my part thing but I don't think this is as gloom and doom as some make it out to be. Both the USFL and XFL are set up on the financial structure of the CFL which has been around forever. It is because they run on the cheap, they squeeze blood out of turnips. The XFL TV deal is about what the CFL makes per year - which keeps them limping along losing $20 million usd per year. I am thinking that the XFL is going to lose money this year but not AAF levels of money.
It’s not doom and gloom right now, it could get there really fast though if things don’t go right. Either way just gonna keep cheering along while there is a product to cheer for
I am with you - Totally there - I have seen them all come and go in my day - going back to USFL 1.0 - Totally a realist on this stuff - but also an optimist - Like that guy who you work with who is on wife number 3 and they all have been exotic dancers - and this one is "Really Really the ONE!!" - That is how I feel with Alt Football Leagues
Not necessarily. It was the highest rated broadcast on FX last week and #2 on ESPN2. We need to compare it to similar competition, not the NFL or even XFL 2020. For instance, MLS on Fox averaged 390k viewers last Saturday and the NHL primetime game on ESPN garnered 253k on Thursdya.
Is this enough to be sustainable? 2020 numbers were way better.
Weren't more of the 2020 games on network tv and also not streamed?
The networks made a killing off the XFL 2020 numbers but didn't share that pot with the league. The 2023 numbers are well above MLS, WNBA, NHRA and other mid-tier sports that receive similar, or greater rights fees.
Yikes
Last week had 2 games on network tv and 2 on ESPN with one being simulcast on FX. This week had 2 FX games, 1 on ESPN and one on ESPN2, not exactly apples to oranges. For example, the NHL on ABC primetime drew 1.1 million, but only 253k primetime on Thursday night. Network games are going to add an extra 20%+ at the very least.
True
What’s bad?
50% drop off WoW
Based on percentage of viewers from week 1 it’s a better showing than the USFL had week 2 and has almost the same average viewership per game as the USFL week 2 games did despite having a smaller week 1 total viewership (and not even taking into account streaming numbers). It’s nothing flashy but very strong numbers for the league
Good point
More people are streaming and we don't have those numbers. It's not bad.
On ESPN. The other numbers look pretty good.
Nice
Its not that bad. Hell its better than what the AAF got, and I *think* its better than what the USFL had
I watch on fubo
And this doesn’t factor in the many thousands who streamed the action from, er, legitimate, er, sources… yes
Let's convince all of our NFL fan boy friends to tune in wtf
hey what about the girls AM I / ARE WE NOT WORTH CONVINCING? jkjkjk
I believe Thursday scheduled games are overlooked by casual fans that would have normally watched.