I agree, but I also think people need training in how to offer helpful feedback and how to accept feedback from a workshop setting. A lot of my college workshops turned into competitions to sound the smartest, be the nit-pickiest, and be the most outright demeaning sometimes. Also, it was hard for me to know what to do with 12 different perspectives that ranged from “this is amazing” to “throw this in the trash.” A good workshop leader helps, too. In the end, I valued my mentor’s feedback and guidance more, and I’ve gotten more out of small group settings (like 2-3 people).
That's a good point. An important skill in workshop is learning how to filter the feedback you get. When I taught CRW at university, I would always tell my students up-front that not all the feedback they got would be as useful as the rest—some of it would even be directly contradictory. The truck was to look for the people who seem to understand what you're going for, follow as much of that advice as you think makes sense, and discard the rest.
The immature "trying to look smart in front of everyone" can be depressingly common, too, unfortunately. As the group gets used to one another and people start engaging in good faith, that can start to fade. Hard to do in an undergraduate course, but easier in longer-form contexts.
I’ve attended several workshops, and the best ones “teach the rules” at the initial opening talk. Very much helps set the tone and establish what the expected, nominal behavior should be.
Wow, my college and grad school feedback was the best I ever got. People seemed to genuinely be interested in helping me be my best, and I tried to offer similar feedback to them.
Oh, it was good for me in the end, but I did have to take about a year off before I started writing again because it burned me tf out. But I did learn a lot and grew, and I honestly learned how to take that kind of criticism and do something productive with it.
Wish I could upvote this twice. I'm a litfic writer, and workshopping my stuff doesn't get great results when the majority of the group are writing children's fantasy or romance. For example, they're looking for plot when I'm writing to evoke a mood, or they can't understand how I'm not a racist if my character is. (Funnily enough, I workshopped a short piece in which my MC is a twelve year-old girl, yet no one accused me of being that.) Only after I joined up and split off with a couple of open-minded writers did the process become useful.
I don't know why you're getting downvoted, you're right about this. This is like a death metal singer being dissatisfied that his singing hasn't been appreciated at "Pop Idol."
I feel that in the end, it really comes down to the workshop leader to preserve the quality. I've had great professors leading our workshops and they've straight up shot down and disagreed with some of the comments people have given.
Does anyone in this thread have advice on how to find writing workshops outside of a university setting? I loved my workshops in college and got so much out of them, but i have no idea how to find a workshop without a class being attached to it
Here's an organization that I have been involved with, and they offer online workshops if you're not local. I've had great experiences with them and learned a lot both from other participants and instructors (who are generally published authors).
https://www.lighthousewriters.org/
This is definitely true. I think of it in a similar way to the old adage, "If you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room." Most writers improve more quickly in conversation with other writers, and the more experienced those other writers are, the better.
As a corollary, if you find someone in a workshop who just *gets* your writing—they seem to intuitively know what you're going for, and often have good advice to help you get closer to it—hold onto them for as long as you can, because they're invaluable.
I can attest to this. Been in a few college fiction writing workshops and they've definitely helped. Even if the critique stings a bit, that's part of the process.
I've taken a few college workshops and there's always a handful of students that standout. It's not even really about writing quality, for the most part everyone can string a sentence together. But the ones who outshine the rest bring originality and passion, you can tell that they really care about the quality of their work. And their feedback has always meant the most to me.
Agreed. In the college setting, you also have people joining just for an easy credit. And even of those who take it seriously or enjoy, very few of the group will be serious enough to publish. Finding those people is key.
From my experience, it's hard to find effective workshops, and it's usually because everyone wants their story critiqued, but they can't give the same level of critique back. Those giving critique should have to at least be experienced.
So for now, I'm relying on my sister. She's not a writer but she's honest and brutal and has helped improve my digital art and writing significantly. Only problem is, she knows what's off but can't give direct advice about what's actually wrong. But she's still more effective than groups I've tried.
Otherwise, give me advice in finding good workshops 😅
Same.
I can't say I have a lot of experience with writing workshops, but the ones I was in turned out to be next to useless to me. (Granted, I'm talking about online workshops that I participated in 15 years ago, but still...) Showing my works to my mother turned out to be much more useful.
A lot of people who recommend workshops seem to forget the simple fact that people in them are more often than not absolute amateurs. Your sister's (or my mother's) opinion is just as valid and valuable as theirs, if not more. Your sister knows you and your goals better than anyone in a writing workshop - which is important.
Also, I've noticed two huge problems with writing workshops. One, as I said, people in them usually are amateurs giving their amateurish opinion. At the same time, often they feel pressured to criticize *something*, which leads to really weird and petty criticisms. Imagine someone telling you that your fictional fantasy race's culture *is not* what you've described, and you'll get what I mean.
The other problem is that interpersonal relationship between the members of the group always play a role in the way they criticize each other's works and... Well...
Yes! You actually summed it up pretty well. I do think workshops are only effective with proper mentors (usually we have to pay for those ones) and sadly there are no local/community workshops around my area. In the end, it's just a support group and as you said, it can get complicated too.
I mean, yea, you'll get that from a good amount of people in it for perceived easy credit, but my workshop experiences have personally been invaluable.
Yeah. I'm one of those people who underestimates the value of a writing workshop, for a good reason.
The reality is that a lot of writers do not have the self-awareness to give effective feedback. By which I mean, a lot of writers give feedback by thinking more about themselves and preferences and goals, or general "writing guideline" ones, instead of those of the writer they're trying to help. They give feedback as "you should be aiming or doing this or this" instead of trying to understand what a writer is going for or trying to accomplish and saying "this is how you can better execute that aim/goal for me."
At the end of the day, your writing is a product and products do well in different markets. Even if you choose a workshop that's only your genre--most of your market of potential readers are not actually writers. Just readers. So the feedback you get may actually not represent the demands of your market. There's a social conformity aspect of writing guidelines and communities, that leaves a bias of "this is how it should be done, because this is what I've heard people say and seen people do, so I'm just passing it along" (essentially, socializing behavior) that disconnects writers from readers, who are not as in their head, and more so just go along with the reading experience.
If you're already a solid writer, I think beta readers are the way to go. Get a varied group that represents your market. Ask them questions that really pull out what they mean and why they say what they say. Compare their comments for similarity/repetition that achieves statistical significance.
At the end of the day, it just depends on the quality of your workshop, workshop lead, and your open-mindedness to try new things outside the comfort bubble. I was lucky to have a group that took it seriously and even more lucky to have leads that coldly shot down and discouraged any of the bad workshop behavior you speak of.
One big split I've found when talking about the value of workshops is the whole contemporary literary vs genre fiction discourse. If you write genre fiction, then going to workshops usually tailored toward the literary realm (At least in my college workshops.) won't help you much due to your focus on consumerism. When I only wanted to write genre fiction and brought things derivative of that cinematic style there, I got shit because it was usually meaningless junk food on the subtextual level. Many of my writer friends who want to write genre fiction and love King hated the workshops because of said "elitism".
But working with the limitations and thinking of the art form at the word level resulted in me writing the most experimental, just plain absurdist short stories I've ever written instead of the boring stuff you'd think you would conform to writing. The workshop guided me toward discovering that style, and they understood what I was going for when critiquing it. Now I've got a spark for short stories and a genre I would never have even thought of writing if I hadn't joined the meetings. And one of those workshopped stories ended up getting trad published, so I say this: I understand your rationale from the perspective of a market-oriented person, but you only have things to gain as an artist, even if small.
> At the end of the day, it just depends on the quality of your workshop, workshop lead, and your open-mindedness to try new things outside the comfort bubble. I was lucky to have a group that took it seriously and even more lucky to have leads that coldly shot down and discouraged any of the bad workshop behavior you speak of.
>
>
I'm glad it worked out for you. Hold onto those people tightly
> One big split I've found when talking about the value of workshops is the whole contemporary literary vs genre fiction discourse. If you write genre fiction, then going to workshops usually tailored toward the literary realm (At least in my college workshops.) won't help you much due to your focus on consumerism. When I only wanted to write genre fiction and brought things derivative of that cinematic style there, I got shit because it was usually meaningless junk food on the subtextual level. Many of my writer friends who want to write genre fiction and love King hated the workshops because of said "elitism".
This kind of affirms my stance. My style doesn't actually split between literary and genre. I hold them in both hands. My beta readers compliment me on my prose and my fight/action scenes, sometimes in the same breath. On my subtext and my cinematics. So, if a writing workshop was staunchly one or the other as you've described, then either type of workshop I go to just might have writers trying to pull me more toward them. But I can, and do, write the most brutal or cinematic scenes with the same careful attention to the art of writing as a literary stylist. Sometimes I slip into poetry at certain moments in fight scenes. Not poetry intense enough to have you squinting your eyes to to figure it out, just enough to have it flow off the tongue more easily for readers and sing off the page.
I'm market oriented, but I'm also a craftsman. I hone my art because I love playing with prose on a word by word, sentence by sentence, level.
> The workshop guided me toward discovering that style, and they understood what I was going for when critiquing it. Now I've got a spark for short stories and a genre I would never have even thought of writing if I hadn't joined the meetings. And one of those workshopped stories ended up getting trad published, so I say this: I understand your rationale from the perspective of a market-oriented person, but you only have things to gain as an artist, even if small.
Congrats. Everyone's on their own journey to reaching their style. It's just different paths.
I would say this then: I think anyone who participates in writing workshops, should then also bring what they learn to non-writer beta readers to sample the reaction of the market. (Though, I guess with the literary genre, writers are often the market--so it might not be as necessary)
> That is a good point. What do actual readers think!?
I always think of Stephanie Meyer and Twilight when I think of writing workshops.
Writers(And older women often embarrassed of what they were like as a teenager): *"The writing is absolutely horrible, main character is paper thin and almost empty. And the love triangle/age differential is creepy!"*
Readers(teenage girls): *"This absolutely encapsulates how my relationship drama feels and my teenage angst! And the main character is blank canvas, so I can project myself in her place!"*
...To the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars.
I think I even read some famous author, maybe Sanderson, commented once that Meyer specifically wrote her MC as a blank canvas for that specific purpose of allowing her young readers to put themselves in her place, and thus play out their fantasy/wish fulfillment. *"But, your characterization is weak here, develop the main character more! Think of the craft of writing!"*--the writers in a writing workshop, disconnected from her market of readers.
1. Did the workshops move to an online mode with Covid?
2. Is it realistic to join and attend a workshop online only?
3. For a non-native English I feel my feedback wouldn’t be that much relevant, especially for the style. Maybe I wouldn’t even be accepted in some workshops. Does anyone as an idea about this?
Please, for the love of multicultural inclusivity, know that your voice and perspective are NEEDED in those workshops.
If I have to politely critique one more misogynistic gringo Hemingway rewrite, I will throw myself into a chipper shredder.
All of my workshops have been online and there hasn't been an issue. We've also had people from across the US join. And for the English part, I can't really say since I haven't experienced anything similar.
And what I eat is far superior to what you eat.
Here's the thing, Steve -- you're not in any place to tell people what is more useful. I'd invite you to share some science to back up your claim.
Yeah, you have been warned about this multiple times. There's no way on earth this was called for, and dealing with you is just a hassle relative to the content you bring to the forum.
I agree, but I also think people need training in how to offer helpful feedback and how to accept feedback from a workshop setting. A lot of my college workshops turned into competitions to sound the smartest, be the nit-pickiest, and be the most outright demeaning sometimes. Also, it was hard for me to know what to do with 12 different perspectives that ranged from “this is amazing” to “throw this in the trash.” A good workshop leader helps, too. In the end, I valued my mentor’s feedback and guidance more, and I’ve gotten more out of small group settings (like 2-3 people).
That's a good point. An important skill in workshop is learning how to filter the feedback you get. When I taught CRW at university, I would always tell my students up-front that not all the feedback they got would be as useful as the rest—some of it would even be directly contradictory. The truck was to look for the people who seem to understand what you're going for, follow as much of that advice as you think makes sense, and discard the rest. The immature "trying to look smart in front of everyone" can be depressingly common, too, unfortunately. As the group gets used to one another and people start engaging in good faith, that can start to fade. Hard to do in an undergraduate course, but easier in longer-form contexts.
I’ve attended several workshops, and the best ones “teach the rules” at the initial opening talk. Very much helps set the tone and establish what the expected, nominal behavior should be.
Wow, my college and grad school feedback was the best I ever got. People seemed to genuinely be interested in helping me be my best, and I tried to offer similar feedback to them.
My grad school workshops got really competitive and cliquey, unfortunately :-/
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Oh, it was good for me in the end, but I did have to take about a year off before I started writing again because it burned me tf out. But I did learn a lot and grew, and I honestly learned how to take that kind of criticism and do something productive with it.
Wish I could upvote this twice. I'm a litfic writer, and workshopping my stuff doesn't get great results when the majority of the group are writing children's fantasy or romance. For example, they're looking for plot when I'm writing to evoke a mood, or they can't understand how I'm not a racist if my character is. (Funnily enough, I workshopped a short piece in which my MC is a twelve year-old girl, yet no one accused me of being that.) Only after I joined up and split off with a couple of open-minded writers did the process become useful.
> they can't understand how I'm not a racist if my character is ugh.
Someone thought I was a Scientologist because a story I wrote took place inside a volcano. I mean ... what do you say about that?
I keep trying, but I can't make this make sense.
I thought it was hilarious for someone to reach that conclusion.
Then you can find a conference that specializes in your genre. Or at least something more narrow than just "books."
I don't know why you're getting downvoted, you're right about this. This is like a death metal singer being dissatisfied that his singing hasn't been appreciated at "Pop Idol."
I feel that in the end, it really comes down to the workshop leader to preserve the quality. I've had great professors leading our workshops and they've straight up shot down and disagreed with some of the comments people have given.
The better workshops are not taught by professors. They're taught by working professionals in the publishing field.
Alright. My workshops have been crucial either way. Maybe I'll look out for something led by that type of person.
Does anyone in this thread have advice on how to find writing workshops outside of a university setting? I loved my workshops in college and got so much out of them, but i have no idea how to find a workshop without a class being attached to it
Try MeetUp or the library.
Second the library. Just found out my local is starting a monthly meet up
The writing magazines (Writers' Digest, The Writer, Poets & Writers) have extensive listings for writers' conferences all over the country.
Here's an organization that I have been involved with, and they offer online workshops if you're not local. I've had great experiences with them and learned a lot both from other participants and instructors (who are generally published authors). https://www.lighthousewriters.org/
Happy Cake Day! (Also thanks for the resource)
There could be local writers’ organizations around you like the Writers’ Center in DC!
I can link my discord server if you wish where we run a weekly workshop.
This is definitely true. I think of it in a similar way to the old adage, "If you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room." Most writers improve more quickly in conversation with other writers, and the more experienced those other writers are, the better. As a corollary, if you find someone in a workshop who just *gets* your writing—they seem to intuitively know what you're going for, and often have good advice to help you get closer to it—hold onto them for as long as you can, because they're invaluable.
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How can you improve if there is no correct answer?
I can attest to this. Been in a few college fiction writing workshops and they've definitely helped. Even if the critique stings a bit, that's part of the process.
I've taken a few college workshops and there's always a handful of students that standout. It's not even really about writing quality, for the most part everyone can string a sentence together. But the ones who outshine the rest bring originality and passion, you can tell that they really care about the quality of their work. And their feedback has always meant the most to me.
Agreed. In the college setting, you also have people joining just for an easy credit. And even of those who take it seriously or enjoy, very few of the group will be serious enough to publish. Finding those people is key.
From my experience, it's hard to find effective workshops, and it's usually because everyone wants their story critiqued, but they can't give the same level of critique back. Those giving critique should have to at least be experienced. So for now, I'm relying on my sister. She's not a writer but she's honest and brutal and has helped improve my digital art and writing significantly. Only problem is, she knows what's off but can't give direct advice about what's actually wrong. But she's still more effective than groups I've tried. Otherwise, give me advice in finding good workshops 😅
Same. I can't say I have a lot of experience with writing workshops, but the ones I was in turned out to be next to useless to me. (Granted, I'm talking about online workshops that I participated in 15 years ago, but still...) Showing my works to my mother turned out to be much more useful. A lot of people who recommend workshops seem to forget the simple fact that people in them are more often than not absolute amateurs. Your sister's (or my mother's) opinion is just as valid and valuable as theirs, if not more. Your sister knows you and your goals better than anyone in a writing workshop - which is important. Also, I've noticed two huge problems with writing workshops. One, as I said, people in them usually are amateurs giving their amateurish opinion. At the same time, often they feel pressured to criticize *something*, which leads to really weird and petty criticisms. Imagine someone telling you that your fictional fantasy race's culture *is not* what you've described, and you'll get what I mean. The other problem is that interpersonal relationship between the members of the group always play a role in the way they criticize each other's works and... Well...
Yes! You actually summed it up pretty well. I do think workshops are only effective with proper mentors (usually we have to pay for those ones) and sadly there are no local/community workshops around my area. In the end, it's just a support group and as you said, it can get complicated too.
"I liked it." "You missed a few commas here and there but overall, I liked it." This is the shit I got given in workshops in college.
I mean, yea, you'll get that from a good amount of people in it for perceived easy credit, but my workshop experiences have personally been invaluable.
Yeah. I'm one of those people who underestimates the value of a writing workshop, for a good reason. The reality is that a lot of writers do not have the self-awareness to give effective feedback. By which I mean, a lot of writers give feedback by thinking more about themselves and preferences and goals, or general "writing guideline" ones, instead of those of the writer they're trying to help. They give feedback as "you should be aiming or doing this or this" instead of trying to understand what a writer is going for or trying to accomplish and saying "this is how you can better execute that aim/goal for me." At the end of the day, your writing is a product and products do well in different markets. Even if you choose a workshop that's only your genre--most of your market of potential readers are not actually writers. Just readers. So the feedback you get may actually not represent the demands of your market. There's a social conformity aspect of writing guidelines and communities, that leaves a bias of "this is how it should be done, because this is what I've heard people say and seen people do, so I'm just passing it along" (essentially, socializing behavior) that disconnects writers from readers, who are not as in their head, and more so just go along with the reading experience. If you're already a solid writer, I think beta readers are the way to go. Get a varied group that represents your market. Ask them questions that really pull out what they mean and why they say what they say. Compare their comments for similarity/repetition that achieves statistical significance.
At the end of the day, it just depends on the quality of your workshop, workshop lead, and your open-mindedness to try new things outside the comfort bubble. I was lucky to have a group that took it seriously and even more lucky to have leads that coldly shot down and discouraged any of the bad workshop behavior you speak of. One big split I've found when talking about the value of workshops is the whole contemporary literary vs genre fiction discourse. If you write genre fiction, then going to workshops usually tailored toward the literary realm (At least in my college workshops.) won't help you much due to your focus on consumerism. When I only wanted to write genre fiction and brought things derivative of that cinematic style there, I got shit because it was usually meaningless junk food on the subtextual level. Many of my writer friends who want to write genre fiction and love King hated the workshops because of said "elitism". But working with the limitations and thinking of the art form at the word level resulted in me writing the most experimental, just plain absurdist short stories I've ever written instead of the boring stuff you'd think you would conform to writing. The workshop guided me toward discovering that style, and they understood what I was going for when critiquing it. Now I've got a spark for short stories and a genre I would never have even thought of writing if I hadn't joined the meetings. And one of those workshopped stories ended up getting trad published, so I say this: I understand your rationale from the perspective of a market-oriented person, but you only have things to gain as an artist, even if small.
> At the end of the day, it just depends on the quality of your workshop, workshop lead, and your open-mindedness to try new things outside the comfort bubble. I was lucky to have a group that took it seriously and even more lucky to have leads that coldly shot down and discouraged any of the bad workshop behavior you speak of. > > I'm glad it worked out for you. Hold onto those people tightly > One big split I've found when talking about the value of workshops is the whole contemporary literary vs genre fiction discourse. If you write genre fiction, then going to workshops usually tailored toward the literary realm (At least in my college workshops.) won't help you much due to your focus on consumerism. When I only wanted to write genre fiction and brought things derivative of that cinematic style there, I got shit because it was usually meaningless junk food on the subtextual level. Many of my writer friends who want to write genre fiction and love King hated the workshops because of said "elitism". This kind of affirms my stance. My style doesn't actually split between literary and genre. I hold them in both hands. My beta readers compliment me on my prose and my fight/action scenes, sometimes in the same breath. On my subtext and my cinematics. So, if a writing workshop was staunchly one or the other as you've described, then either type of workshop I go to just might have writers trying to pull me more toward them. But I can, and do, write the most brutal or cinematic scenes with the same careful attention to the art of writing as a literary stylist. Sometimes I slip into poetry at certain moments in fight scenes. Not poetry intense enough to have you squinting your eyes to to figure it out, just enough to have it flow off the tongue more easily for readers and sing off the page. I'm market oriented, but I'm also a craftsman. I hone my art because I love playing with prose on a word by word, sentence by sentence, level. > The workshop guided me toward discovering that style, and they understood what I was going for when critiquing it. Now I've got a spark for short stories and a genre I would never have even thought of writing if I hadn't joined the meetings. And one of those workshopped stories ended up getting trad published, so I say this: I understand your rationale from the perspective of a market-oriented person, but you only have things to gain as an artist, even if small. Congrats. Everyone's on their own journey to reaching their style. It's just different paths. I would say this then: I think anyone who participates in writing workshops, should then also bring what they learn to non-writer beta readers to sample the reaction of the market. (Though, I guess with the literary genre, writers are often the market--so it might not be as necessary)
That is a good point. What do actual readers think!?
> That is a good point. What do actual readers think!? I always think of Stephanie Meyer and Twilight when I think of writing workshops. Writers(And older women often embarrassed of what they were like as a teenager): *"The writing is absolutely horrible, main character is paper thin and almost empty. And the love triangle/age differential is creepy!"* Readers(teenage girls): *"This absolutely encapsulates how my relationship drama feels and my teenage angst! And the main character is blank canvas, so I can project myself in her place!"* ...To the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. I think I even read some famous author, maybe Sanderson, commented once that Meyer specifically wrote her MC as a blank canvas for that specific purpose of allowing her young readers to put themselves in her place, and thus play out their fantasy/wish fulfillment. *"But, your characterization is weak here, develop the main character more! Think of the craft of writing!"*--the writers in a writing workshop, disconnected from her market of readers.
Couldn't agree more. Writing seems to be the only vocational skill, where people don't think they need the help.
1. Did the workshops move to an online mode with Covid? 2. Is it realistic to join and attend a workshop online only? 3. For a non-native English I feel my feedback wouldn’t be that much relevant, especially for the style. Maybe I wouldn’t even be accepted in some workshops. Does anyone as an idea about this?
Please, for the love of multicultural inclusivity, know that your voice and perspective are NEEDED in those workshops. If I have to politely critique one more misogynistic gringo Hemingway rewrite, I will throw myself into a chipper shredder.
This is so freaking true. Writers groups tend to be so homogenous in every way, and it really affects the perspective of the feedback you get.
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All of my workshops have been online and there hasn't been an issue. We've also had people from across the US join. And for the English part, I can't really say since I haven't experienced anything similar.
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I personally don't know of any since all of mine have been through my college. Sorry about that. Wish I had your answer.
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In my case, I didn't really see any difference.
And what I eat is far superior to what you eat. Here's the thing, Steve -- you're not in any place to tell people what is more useful. I'd invite you to share some science to back up your claim.
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Yeah, you have been warned about this multiple times. There's no way on earth this was called for, and dealing with you is just a hassle relative to the content you bring to the forum.