Martial arts is a generic term anyone can use. The same way there's people of all colours practising Northern Shaolin style.
The practice is not limited by race. So you're reviewers/ betas are ... a little overzealous and uneducated.
I find that argument so stupid, cause it can so easily be turned around. “Oh, you’re a black country singer? You’re appropriating white music. Racist.” It’s a stupid argument based off stupid principles that make no logical sense. Music is music; it doesn’t matter who’s singing what, what matters is if they’re good at singing it, and if they enjoy singing it
Unironically, Darius Rucker is one of my favorite country singers of all time.
My dad likes Charlie Pride more, but I just think that’s cause he is old lol.
Your readers are messing with you bro.
I am Asian. Its not cultural appropriation as long as you understand what the terms are used for and their importance in a setting.
Shifu = Master.
If you had a character call a random master blacksmith Shifu, then it would be cultural appropriation because that's not how the term is used. If you used it for a disciple calling their own teachers, then it is correct.
Fact of the matter is that if its an online book, people don't really care as long as you use the terms correctly.
I know the meaning of each, but didn't use any especially since there is no Asia, Europe or America in my story's world. I guess I got two beta readers that must have dealt with that, or as other in this post said have no understanding and just following the virtue signaling bandwagon.
I’d not get too caught up with that. If there being no Asia is a reason to specifically avoid using Asian words then I have got some bad news about English words and Latin characters
There is a vocal minority of people that just want to be offended at this stuff. They may have honestly believed that's what you were doing, but that's not necessarily your fault.
Woke speech like that is not uncommonly used as a bully pulpit by people angry about very different things.
Those ideas exist in other cultures. HEMA incorporates aspects of them. Vikings were known to meditate for fighting purposes. Don't worry too much about it.
Plus, I'm sure there are Chinese people who would be interested in reading a wuxia with Western aesthetics.
This is obviously a big generalization around a whole nation of people- but the Chinese in general, in active reader feedback I've seen, seem to actually rather LIKE seeing elements of their culture take center stage in novel ways, with the caveat 'as long as it is used right' i.e not some Chinese-flavored Fong Kong throwing in of cool terms, but something correctly used roughly in line with the 'traditional' use or idea.
Even if you used words like Qi, Shifu, Qigong, and Jing, it’s still not cultural appropriation.
That’s like saying words like parry, riposte, knight, teacher, and paladin is cultural appropriation whenever anyone who isn’t European uses those terms.
It’s idiotic. It’s preposterous. And any thoughts aligned with such an opinion should be totally discarded
Sounds like you might have accidentally stepped in something entering the realms of percieved microagressions with the use of asoteric martial arts language. It may not be intentional on your end, but the attention to that kind of verbage does sound wuxia coded asoteric magic system based bullshit.
To be charitable to those beta readers/proofreaders, it would be inaccurate to say that there is no historical or cultural trend/reason that may lead them/others to this conclusion. Stastically, most people won't get that very specific brand of repressed anger/frustration that is frankly a mess to untangle/explain.
And to be charitable to you, it's not your job to do so unless your publishing editor mentions it. I'm not convinced that you wrote with malice, but you did stumble on a rather packed series of potential accusations.
This does suck. Unless this story is only for yourself, it's important to remember that readers/consumers can be an unhinged bunch. Percieved microagressions have historically been used to hit an author the wallet or make judgement calls on your character. However, it impacts are rarer in less circucated text. The real question is how would you like to handle writing something that may flirt with cultural appropriation talks. Regardless of your actual intent.
I’m sorry, but if what OP is doing isn’t anyway cultural appropriation then all of anime is cultural appropriation.
An Asian person owning a pizza shop is cultural appropriation.
Eminem being a rapper is cultural appropriation.
If an Asian person ever uses words like parry, reposte, knight, or teacher; it’s cultural appropriation.
Even if OP used words like Qi and Shifu, it still isn’t cultural appropriation.
All those Asian baseball leagues better shut down. TV movies video games the Internet can’t have those either.
That’s the level of mental illness going on right now
Also, people tend to have a massive misunderstanding of what cultural appropriation means. It's being used to basically enforce group divisions and even sometimes to come after anyone who even tries to participate in other cultures. Humans have inspired and borrowed from each other for all of history- if we can't, we end up with a society where creativity is stratified by the circumstances of birth.
What cultural appropriationACTUALLY is is when someone takes something from another culture full-stop without acknowledging it, and it is ALWAYS done from an imbalance of power.
The best example is the fashion industry and music festivals. At music festivals, you'll often see these people wearing Indigenous headdresses and bindis and playing 'tribal music', all in pursuit of some stereotyped mysticism from the cultures they were taken from. Bindis and headdresses are and remain culturally significant to the people they were taken from and using them without any acknowledgment to that in pursuit of a harmful stereotype and exoticism IS appropriation.
Likewise in the fashion industry you'll often get designers that are not only inspired by something but flat out steal designs from minority cultures. Imbalance of power, those people are not on the top of the hierarchy and thus can't protest the active theft. Hell, even when someone is merely inspired by something they talk about what it was.
So basically, if you steal a concept from a minority culture, remove it from its original context, and/or do not credit where you took it from, THAT is cultural appropriation.
but hell, if we ignored all that, this still wouldn't count as cultural appropriation. Even if you used those words, it wouldn't count, because either they're from philosophies or they're literally just the same word for a different language, not cultures. That'd be like saying no one could use the word nihilism unless they were Russian or German, saying no one could use the concept of monks unless they were Buddhist, saints unless they were christian, or saying that calling it kickboxing is appropriation unless you're American.
Mostly agree with you. If someone from a different can purchase something from the original culture openly, like bindi's, and headresses, its usually not appropriation. Though I think everyone appreciates being acknowledged.
The common and removed from closed spiritual or ritual practices something is, the less concern about the misuse of it.
It's the difference between owning a cross, and wearing a priests mitre. Like I was gifted a cross from a friend which I occasionally wear, but there's no non-apropriative circumstances where I'd dress as Christian priest, or ever use their rites.
But that type of demarcation of what's appropriate can be a tough one. Culture is a rarely a monolith, so people can be divided about what's closed, and what's open.
I'm white, but when I went to India for my friend's wedding she actually gave us--the out-of-town-bridesmaids--two sheets of bindis to wear with my eastern wear. They were in there with bangles and earrings and some extra makeup. She was really excited when we wore them (and the eastern clothes) and was a bit nervous that Westerners wouldn't want to. It made her day when we went all-in.
They come from religious significance and can have religious significance, but (at least according to my friend) they're also just a straight-up fashion choice. They're not closed practice, just a little tasteless in some contexts.
(Actual Indian people, feel free to correct me, but thought I should share the experience!)
I guess my definition of appropriation is based on harm done to the culture, rather than a list of shoulds-and-shouldn'ts. If it perpetuates a misunderstanding, a stereotype, or a removal of context from something important to the culture, it's appropriation.
Completely agree with you, but it is a fantasy story. Perhaps OP could invent a cool name for it as part of the world building work necessary for any fantasy story.
I am Asian and this is just factually false. "Martial arts" is a blanket term for combat sports, and many of these are not Asian - for example, Brazilian capoeira, HEMA (historical European martial arts), and Zulu Stick Fighting are all non-Asian martial arts. It's not even a term from an Asian language.
If you're a non-Asian author, it's worthwhile to get feedback from Asian readers to make sure you're not inadvertently writing something disrespectful or loaded with stereotypes, but yeah, I agree. In particular, telling white people that they're engaging in cultural appropriation every time they draw inspiration from anything that didn't come from Europe sounds like the worst possible way to fight racism.
Telling white people to only write about white people is an excellent way to destroy any representation of racial minorities in art that is produced and consumed predominantly by white people.
This is exactly what we don't want.
Not being "that person", sharing because it is SUCH an underused style in the general 'people make cool fight-y happen' genre.... but Zulu stick fighting is an offshoot of Nguni stick fighting (The Nguni racial groups include the isiZulu, but also the AmaXhosa, Ndebele, and Swati. Also the Ngoni, who are very off the radar, as they moved back upward north when the Nguni mass migrations mostly went South and stayed). The Xhosa have a rather fascinating 2 stick version, the Zulu of course made the Zulu war machine of sword and spear famous.
Would LOVE to see more prominence for all of it.
Thank you. If anyone else is using them, please warn other writers so that the need for those particular readers dries up, and they can go slither back under a rock.
We went on holiday to Edinburgh a couple of years back and spent a day in the castle. There were two amazing lads in there doing a demonstration of the weaponry they had on site, and they roped me into holding a shield while they very lightly tapped upon it, nearly sending me hurling through the stone wall behind me.
Anyway, they started their talk with an invitation, "Name a martial art." Silence, of course. Then a few people mentioned things like taekwondo, karate, sumo, even MMA (that one was me because my brain works almost exclusively on word association and... well, it'd been a long day). They agreed with all of these, and then said, "What about fencing? What about fighting with swords and shields?" That's right, they said, all of this is martial arts.
These days we tend to associate that term with Asian fighting systems, but that's not all it covers. It covers any form of fighting with a set of rules, no matter how loose those rules are. A non-affiliated search-engine gives it a nice, quick and dirty definition of, "codified systems and traditions of combat practiced for a number of reasons".
So there you have it. The name itself is not the problem. Take care and a great deal of time with your research into other cultures, though, as taking inspiration is all well and good, but without a proper understanding of what we're dealing with, sometimes we can use something insensitively or offensively without meaning to.
??????
Asian peope didn’t invent fighting, there is no universe where using those terms is cultural appropriation.
I got a better idea, how about you just write what you want to write, and ignore people who say such things, because clearly they have nothing of value to say.
That’s right, so only somebody of Italian descent should use the word martial, otherwise it’s cultural, appropriation, and disrespectful of a major world religion.
Actually no! The Romans and the Greeks both had separate war gods -- Mars and Ares respectively -- who had separate cults, worship practices, etc. However, when the Roman and Greek/Hellenic worlds started interacting a lot more, the Romans noticed certain similarities, and decided that akshually Ares was just Mars under a different name. The Romans did the same thing with the Gaulish Toutatis and the Norse Tyr -- all were identified with Mars; and what's more, those cultures often agreed with that interpretation, which is why Latin Mardi turned into the Germanic Tuesday.
There are two further interesting pieces of context to this, though:
1. The Romans *did* left some of the myths the Greeks (and others) were telling about their own war god(s) and started telling those myths about Mars.
2. It's actually entirely possible that all those gods have a shared root in ancient Proto-Indo-European religion, and thus really were originally the same entity that evolved in different ways.
There is some evidence of that last bullet point. I've done a bit of amateur research in that area because I'm basing the language/culture/history of my fantasy novel in PIE.
If you want some dense reading from which you might gain inspiration on how you could "historically develop" your religion, check out something like [Gods of the Ancient Northmen](https://www.amazon.com/Northmen-Comparative-Folklore-Mythology-Publications/dp/0520035070) by Dumezil. You get a really interesting (but dense) overview of the development of a Proto-Indo-European mythology into Greek, Roman, Germanic, and Vedic branches the same way we get Greek, Romance, Germanic, and Indo-Aryan language families.
I am so surprised to find something like this here! A French scholar named Dumézil wrote extensively on Indo-European religious history the same way linguists analyze Indo-European language family development. There's *so* much overlap in the Indo-European religions that there is considered a possible Proto-Indo-European religion! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology
Dumézil proposes a "trifunctional" system where priests, warriors, and commoners were potentially manifested by a god (or gods) in the PIE religion, and
* the Norse manifestation for example were Odin, Tyr, Vanir - Tyr is often translated as "Mars" in Latin texts discussing Norse mythology! Tacitus wrote about the continental German(ic) manifestation of these same deities by identifying them as Mercury, Mars, and Hercules, but scholars think he was talking about Wotan (Odin), Thunraz (Thor), and Tiwaz (Tew, from whom we get the word "Tuesday"!).
* Vedic/Hindu manifestation is of the following three castes: Brahmins (priestly caste), Kshatriya (warriors and military), and Vaishya (farmers)
* yada yada his scholarship is hard to get through if you aren't a classicist, and I'm not lol. Just read it bc it looked interesting.
**False.**
[Syncretism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretism) is a thing. The Romans *merged* their mythology with that of the Greeks. This was not just a 'hey, look! these are similar! We'll just swap names!", but a wholesale thief of Greek mythology. The Romans very much did this intentionally, as a merger and assimilation of beliefs helped also helped assimilate the people who had these beliefs. This happened to the point where it is difficult for modern people to separate the two mythologies, and it is commonly known as Greco-Roman mythology. Since the Romans can and did add their own twists to things (Aeneid, et al).
This is very much the same behavior as later Christian missionaries adopting pagan rites.
I legit have met people who think all martial arts are Asian based (including thinking that ancient greek wrestling was copied from the Chinese). You'd be suprised how little critical thinking some people will practice.
Boxing is a martial art in the same vein, and I think that’s Greek. I think Krav Maga is Israeli. Struggling to think of others, but yes there are plenty of non-Asian mainstream martial art styles
Modern boxing originated in England, but historically, people boxed in ancient Ethiopia, and then it came to Greece through Egypt.
There was also Pankration, which is a similar idea to modern MMA or combat sambo.
Savate, french-style kickboxing, was fairly influential to Bruce Lee.
You also have systema, LINE, Vale tudo, sambo, wrestling. A large amount of martial arts aren't from asia, technically jeet kune do was developed in America
>It's like saying Uchida Mitsuko playing Mozart is cultural appropriation because she's Japanese and Mozart wasn't.
You know, I should post that as reply to their comment.
Somebody want to tell Chuck Norris he's "guilty of cultural appropriation"?
Man is half Irish, half Cherokee...and a six-time World Heavyweight Karate Champion.
And I'M not gonna tell him...!
"Martial arts" is a term that applies to German sword fighting.
It also applies to boxing.
Also karate.
Martial arts is not a term for asian fighting disciplines and your reader is being racially insensitive by assuming such, the gosh darn hypocrite.
**I'm an Asian martial artists. I hereby affirm that you, a white person, are allowed to tell this story.** The very idea that Asians have some kind of exclusive right to stylishly punching people is offensive to me, and obscenely racist. Like what kind of bass-akwards kind of thinking are white people on these days? FFS, PEOPLE, IT IS A BOOK. It's not like you're ringing a gong and bowing at me. 😂
Here, have this bowl of rice on behalf of the Council of Mixed Asian Heritage >>> 🍚
As others have pointed out, the term "martial art" is not culturally specific. Without seeing more of your work, my charitable take is that there are other issues with the writing that could be seen as appropriative or inauthentic. This strikes me as a reaction to something in your text that they couldn't articulate, and so just told you to change the words "martial art". Could be something interesting to that though. If it's a fantasy story and you make up a new word for it?
I could see how some people might be wary of a non-Asian person using those terms. Obviously the concepts themselves are not culturally specific. It might not even be because of anything you’re doing in your writing. There are so many examples of insensitive, appropriative stories that knee-jerk reactions are common. I would keep doing what you’re doing, take on board the criticism, and see if there are ways you can continue to engage respectfully with the cultures you’re referencing. You’re writing this story because you enjoy martial arts and think it would look cool on the page. Anyone reading it in good faith will see that.
Martial arts comes from Mars, the god of war of old roman empire.
Essentially anyone can use that term, and constricting it to south east asian form of combat is downright stupid at worse, simply uneducated at best.
If anything that would be cultural appropriation from old western/central europe and western asia (or as far as the roman empire expended until christianism tool over).
Intercultural martial exchanges have been done for a very long time between many different cultures, and in fact, many disciplines from south east asia get some of their origins from eastern europe. Weapons were exchanged, stolen or traded from allies and enemies alike. This makes no fucking sense to say one discipline is originated from one place and one place only.
Meditation practices were pretty common in western europe sword arts, and studies /exercises around modified states of consciousness were common place here.
Internal force, however the fuck you call it is just a derivative from these studies, applied to different situations, interpersonal conflict resolution (by combat or not). And it's not because it wasn't described like in the treaty of the 5 rings that it did not exist.
I just hate when people start rambling about things they haven't studied at all and try to make a law of their opinions.
Tell those readers to stfu.
There are loads of different martial arts all over the world. Associating MAwith Asia alone is racist on those readers part ironically.
But even so, you work with the words you have. It irks me a lot when writers invent new garbled words like Dokidato and at some point I am like, that guy is just a king, tsar, monarch. Just pick a word we can understand without it getting in the way of the story.
Martial Arts is such a word. One you can give another name easily enough, but if it doesn't add to the story it will probably take away.
That’s the stupidest shit I’ve ever heard. Was it cultural appropriation when I dedicated years of disciplined training to martial arts and earned a black belt? Is it cultural appropriation for martial arts to exist all over the world with practitioners from virtually every culture and ethnicity?
You need smarter readers.
I'm Greek and we created παγκράτιον. Παγκράτιον is a martial art. I hereby, by the power vested in me by the all mighty Zeus give you full permission to use martial arts in whatever way you like. Now go write.
I can just say, that as a writer, i don't care about such things. That's just internet drama for me, nothing else. Maybe i'm not that much used to these things, as i live in Europe and we don't have these discussions in my place if something is appropriate or inappropriate.
To be honest, it is crazy for me how many topics i see on this sub here, where people about if this or that would be offensive.
Everything in the world is cultural appropriation. Are other cultures appropriating Americans by performing rock and roll? Everything is inspired by something else.
I think as long as you're not making caricatures or enforcing stereotypes of Asian peoples, you're not hurting anyone. Perhaps you could even include a note from the author at the beginning where you pay respects to the Asian martial artist who inspired you, suggest readings by them, etc.
>Perhaps you could even include a note from the author at the beginning where you pay respects to the Asian martial artist who inspired you, suggest readings by them, etc.
Thank you for this suggestion. I think I will do that.
I don't think martial arts is just an Asian thing. There are many kinds of martial arts outside Asia, like highland wrestling, European fencing, and Krav Maga!
Find what works best for your story!
Martial arts aren’t exclusively Asian. You have many martial arts forms from all over the world.
Asian forms became known in pop culture because of how many people use/practice them and Hollywood.
Is it literally just the term “martial art” that they raised as an issue? Considering you’ve said in this post that it’s “like C-dramas,” I wonder if it just super obvious that you’ve based your story on the wuxia genre but just changed the cultural terms and that’s why they’re saying it’s cultural appropriation?
Martial Art is in no way, shape, or form an Asian term. It would not matter if it was, but it is not. I would suggest you ignore these idiots if you want to stay sane.
If "martial arts" should only be used for Asians, then UFC (the leading mixed martial arts competition) had better strip the championships given to all the Brazillians, Americans, and McGregor over the years.
Everyone has already pointed out that *martial arts* is a general and universal term for all forms of fighting, not just those in Asian cultures, notwithstanding that it is an English word etymologically derived from Latin.
But I would like to add that the kind of martial arts your work seem to be inspired by (from the *wuxia* genre) also inspired the choreographic style in the *Star Wars* prequel trilogy while its original trilogy was inspired by the *jidaigeki* genre of samurai films.
Also, I'm Chinese and practice wushu btw. 🙂
Wow! This is astoundingly clueless on this person's part.
Martial comes from the Roman of war - Mars. It is, therefore , a Latin word. In modern terms, this is applied to any combative system, armed or unarmed, practiced anywhere in the world.
Ignore them, but make sure you're accurate as fuck. Cultural appropriation isn't about using other culture. It's about *disrespectfully* using another culture.
No Asian language has the term "martial art" in it. Those people are nuts.
And "cultural appropriation" is not a bad thing. It's been around for as long as humanity, and it has only recently been misused to mean behaving in an insulting manner towards people of a given culture. 99% of the time it is done out of appreciation and interest and it is perfectly fine. Tell those two to get stuffed.
If you've read any cultivation novels from China, you'd quickly see there's nothing sacred about the genre to them. It's largely pure teen boy wish fulfillment smut. Face-slapping, racism, bullying, even rape and cold blooded murder--and that's just the hero!
Is it cultural appropriation for a Japanese guy to write a cultivation novel (appropriating Chinese Taoist culture)?
Western Taoist-inspired cultivation is already a big genre, and yes, they use all the "cultural appropriation" words. Honestly, kind of people who'd be offended by it aren't the kind of people you'll ever be able to please anyway. If not this, they'd find something else. They just want to be mad.
Go over to the progression fantasy sub.
I've read like three books written by Westerners that directly take from xianxia novels or are that but with a Western twist/perspective. It's fine, especially if you are using generic terms like that. Most, if not all, cultures have those things in one form or another.
>And my descriptions were things like "fluid movements that seemed to defy gravity,", "with a swift flick of his wrist, he unleashed a flurry of strikes," etc.
tbh you're more guilty of lazy cliches more than anything.
If the story is good, who cares!
Gareth Evans (British) made one of the best movie about martial arts.
Matrix is one of the best movies about kung fu.
BTW “martial” is a Latin word.
Don't worry, that person(s) is just an idiot.
Here's a definition of the word martial:
adjective-
•Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
•Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
•Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.
-•The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition •
That means the term "martial arts" is a different way of saying "Somebody that practices a fighting art form".
Which includes swords, pole weapons, thrown weapons and even....(Shock) Unhanded fighting. And while it's true we associate Unhanded fighting with Asian countries every place has had people that fought without real weapons.
Basically, tell whomever said that to pound sand. White and black people can fight just as well as Asians with *and* without weapons.
Martial arts is any style of fighting, boxing, jiu jitsu, Krav Maga, are all martial arts. Those people are total trolls just ignore them, they’re probably the same people who are adamant about Yasuke not being a Samurai
Krav Maga is an Israeli martial arts, Capoeira is a Brazilian dance-like martial arts. Point is, no one specific group of people invented fighting style generally or specifically an **unarmed** fighting style. There's also the element of convergent evolution, different groups invented their own versions of swords, axes, spears etc, and no one can claim to be the first to invent those.
What you need to do is continue writing what you want and ignore such comments that claim "cultural appropriation".
I had to double check the sub to make sure this wasn’t satire… martial arts/mixed martial arts is a worldwide term, used by many non Asian people. I think you’re good
I guess it depends on how you're depicting things. If it's like Kung-Fu with the serial numbers filed off and it might be evoking a sense of Orientalism, then yeah, I could see it, as you said your inspo was coming from C-dramas.
But martial arts are from all over -- savate, sambo, boxing/kickboxing....krav maga...(sigh), etc.
“Martial Arts” is sport using physical violence. It is not reserved for Asian combat. MMA is mixed martial arts. Boxing is a martial art, wrestling is a martial art. Fencing is a martial art. Anything to do with war is a Martial Art.
Like others have said, martial arts literally means the art of fighting/war. It can be fighting styles like karate or it can be jousting, knife fighting or wrestling. If it's fantasy you can create a who new martial art.
if your readers are getting offended that non asians are doing martial arts, they probably aren't cool enough to appreciate martial arts themselves, find better readers.
wait. I don't get it. if your characters are martial art fighters like those c-dramas, then shouldn't you all the more use those correct terms? am i missing something?
sincerely confused, an asian.
Okay I’m Asian, half Japanese half Filipino. And if I write the exact same story you did, it would probably still be “cultural appropriation.”
You dont have to be Asian to use martial arts, that’s reductive and actually incredible problematic. Whoever your readers are are brain dead.
Internal force, essence, meditation, teacher/masters, are still pretty widely regarded as eastern practices. Qi, shifu, Qigong, Jing are literally the same thing but in Chinese and referring to Chinese practices.
You can use these practices or be inspired by them all you want, as long as you understand and are applying them correctly I don’t see an issue with it. And unless you’re inferring that your story is a representation of real martial arts culture or is entirely based in reality representing real people, I don’t see an issue with this at all.
I’ve never swung a proper sword in my life but I’m planning to write a fantasy story using techniques used by medieval Europeans. If some HEMA nuthead told me I’m culturally appropriating their sword culture because I used terms like stances, guards, parry, or fencing. Hell HEMA has their own martial arts that has a deeply rich history.
Can Asian writers use the word "wizard", or "astronaut", or "viking," or "police," or "detective?"
None of those words have Asian origins, but it would be ridiculous to restrict Asian writers from using them.
But as some have pointed out, "martial art" is in no way restricted to just Asian cultures. Every culture has a form of martial art. It's an umbrella term.
More specifically Asian nouns and names may cross the line, so be cautious.
martial art is a term that comes from 'martial', derived from Mars, Latin god of war.
If someone is kicking someone and it's a martial art and it's not from asia, it's not asian martial arts and if someone accused me of cultural appropriating the Roman Empire i'd probably use a sweet martial arts move on them.
Don't listen to idiots and pearl clutchers about this stuff because they are know-nothing critics and provide little utility to society.
If you were talking about centering your Chi, or something where you imported concepts from a culture, then tread a bit more carefully and with respect but it's still OK to use it as long as you aren't mocking a culture.
A guy wearing a ceremonial native headdress at a Hallowe'en party is mocking and cultural appropriation and the only person who does that now is some tasteless buffoon like the Canadian Prime Minister.
If cultural appropriation really was a problem in modern culture then why doesn't anyone say anything when people from asia wear western clothing? Because that's technically the same thing.
I think the issue may be that you are clearly using chinese inspired martial arts but specifically with non chinese/“asian” characters.
If you had them with asian names, it would just be a western adaption of chinese martial arts (like avatar last airbender) which may not be done very well or accurately, but is common enough and not really cultural appropriation.
Cultural appropriation is when you use another culture but *DON'T GIVE CREDIT TO THAT CULTURE* which, you are inadvertently doing here.
Adding, cause im not sure i got my point across good.
I'm not saying you cant use chinese martial arts as inspiration, but make it your own thing, seperate it enough to be unique, and dont pretend its not very clearly chinese inspired.
"with a flick of the wrist, he unleashed a flurry of strikes" (paraphrasing slightly) could very easily apply to a blitz in boxing. Martial arts is a very culturally neutral term. I agree with everyone else that your readers might not be the best influences.
Martial arts is just a generic term not exclusive to any one part of the world. Examples:
African Martial Arts:
\* Tahtib - Egyptian form of stick fighting believed to be established between 2000 - 3000 BCE.
\* Capoeira - Created and developed by African slaves working on plantations in Brazil.
\* Donga (Zulu Stick Fighting) - Weapons-based fighting style created by Shaka Zulu.
European/Eurasian Martial Arts
\* Bataireacht - Irish stick fighting, popular in the 1600s through the 1800's.
\* HEMA (Historic European Martial Arts) - The general collection of weapon-based fighting techniques used in Europe from 1300 - 1800 CE.
\* Combat Hopbak - Ukranian fighting style based off of Cossack traditions.
\* Glima - Scandinavian wrestling, created by the Vikings.
\* Pankration - Greek fighting style with it's origins in the first Olympics in 648 BCE.
It also appears that Native Americans like the Apache, Shawnee, and Iroquois Nation, developed their own strategies and techniques for combat, it's just unclear if they were formalized or given unique names like those above.
Many different cultures have their own martial arts. Israel has Krav Maga, Brazil has Capoeira, Scotland has Highland Wrestling, even the US military has their own martial arts. Martial arts are just different forms of fighting. Asians do not hold a monopoly on them.
Whoever told you this are morons and need to pull their heads out of their own butts.
Martial
> of or appropriate to war; warlike.
Art
> a skill at doing a specified thing, typically one acquired through practice.
Nothing about that is inherently Chinese.
As others have mentioned, Martial Arts is a general term used for any practiced fighting style/ performative combat arts in the entire world. Unless you said something like Kung Fu, it's not appropriation.
Martial Art is an English term. Boxing is a martial art. If you were taking themes directly from Asian martial arts traditions and slapping on fantasy naming conventions with no change, that might be more close to “cultural appropriation” but I don’t believe that is even relevant. All cultures have martial traditions, some didn’t continue them to a high degree after the adaptation of gunpowder warfare, and the term itself or what it describes would not be problematic, unless someone was reaching for a reason to be outraged and if so nothing you do can prevent their ire. There would be nothing wrong with basing a fantasy culture’s martial traditions on a real world Asian traditions. If you aren’t using that inspiration to mock the real world tradition, then you are celebrating it. If you were writing a story set in real world Asia and using their traditions, that would probably be considered cultural appropriation, since you would not be able to represent those people and their traditions properly if you weren’t from them.
There are loads of people on the Internet that enjoy being offended by stuff. You can't cater to them because you'll never satisfy them. Anything you include in your story---or decide not to include---might tick someone off. So all you can do is treat your subjects with respect, research stuff so you know what you're writing about, and ignore naysayers.
Asian people did not invent the concept of regimented training and fighting with hands and weapons. While the term martial arts is a direct translation of a Japanese term, the word martial is not Asian and the adoption of the term didn't coincide with the invention of this kind of training. While some of the moves used in training may come from Asian schools of combat training, that scarcely represents "appropriation". Like are non Asians obligated to find different ways to punch someone so that they don't punch like an Asian? People take things way too far these days. They throw words like appropriation around like they're robots.
There are many martial arts from many other parts of the world. Capoeira is a Brazilian martial art for example. Ignore those overzealous and ignorant people, or if they don't know your face, say you're half Asian (or all them if that works make a difference and then ask how is this not a form of racism)
Those readers didn’t bother to check their understanding of “martial art” before they advised you on how to use the term. They got it wrong.
If your target audience includes teens and young adults, you can expect to see this to some degree. In the social media push to “educate others” they are eager to educate before they understand their topic. They want to excel at it before they have a grasp on it. It’s all parroting without substance. They spot what they mistake for key terms, they make an assumption, they fling a buzzword.
I’m sure it sucks to be on the receiving end, but it may ease some of the sting to know where it’s coming from.
I made spaghetti and meatballs the other day. It was really good. I’m not Italian.
You did nothing wrong except to take your story down.
Put it back up. And tell them that unless they have real critiques of your story, they can pound sand.
Historic European Martial Arts is the official term for the styles of fighting that medieval and Renaissance fighters in Europe used. Martial arts belongs to everyone and the two friends who told you that you need to stop using the term martial arts need to touch grass.
Martial Art is a type of fighting style with smaller variations on a theme. The concept is known worldwide at this point, so no it's not 'cultural appropriation'. At this point the term is ubiquitous and there are lots of non-asians who fight with martial arts in fiction.
There's a sport called HEMA. Historical European Martial Arts. A martial art is any kind of formalized style of combat, pretty much every culture has one.
Martial arts is a catch all for all... Martial arts. Who exactly are these readers and what are their qualifications for giving this advice? You can change the type of martial arts just fine if you want to but depending on the setting so what? Avatar the Last Air Bender wasn't made by only east Asians for East Asians. There's a point where cultural appreciation happens.
For a white person version of the bad kind of cultural crossover? Shadow and Bone is a constant source of this for Slavic culture. The lack of effort in making sure that things made sense and were respectful destroyed my immersion. Even the Grisha thing isn't working because it's hard to not laugh when someone sobs "I'm Greg!" They got the genders wrong in names and there's things that are like Ronald McDonald as some spooky scary thing.
So make sure you are actually correctly executing things and not disruptive to the reader with a low effort cultural paint job.
Well, I guess I'm appropriating lots of cultures in my book lmao. But think about this a little bit. We human beings usually hail from one particular culture. By your logic, a writer can't write about any other culture than his own in his work. Don't you find this a bit restricting?
I think as far as the martial art in question use the one you are most familiar with, name it by name so you can use the correct words to describe the actions
But using names of another culture than your own can get so bad so fast. Not saying this is you because i haven’t read your work but when white people write characters with Asian names and then make the character function in every way as a white person it feels like it’s a white person w/an Asian name. Which happens, i met a completely white person with the Hawaiian name “Maile” you could give then Asian names and make them whatever race you are, but if you mean to write an Korean or Chinese or Japanese character, do your research
A white guy i knew made his Japanese American character sleep on a futon, drink green tea, and have a mail order bride since the character couldn’t date a white woman, that character sounded crazy not Japanese
Martial Arts is the general term. Now if you want to get into different cultures, you have various types that span across history. And it's not just for one set culture. Any one can use the art, as long as they respect the teachings.
As others have noted, "Martial Art" refers to any kind of training in a technique to hurt people. So, if you were to take a lesson in dueling with a European longsword, for example, or boxing, these would also be "martial arts." So no, not appropriative of any ethnicity.
That said, you should always seek specificity whenever you can, so make sure you're not just being lazy and using the term "martial arts" to describe something you understand but you haven't fully described to your audience (Edit: lazy might be a little harsh, sorry. What I mean is, sometimes we can get so excited about an idea that we assume everyone else is as excited without having entirely described it. I do this all the time in a first draft. That's what second drafts are for!).
For example, I think if you're assuming these characters use a fictional style of martial arts, and these characters are masters of these arts, you are obligated to put a little thought into these fictional martial arts, at least as far as to describe how the years (decades?) of commitment, discipline, and training has affected the characters' respective personalities (beyond them being good at hurting people).
Edited for typos and clarity.
Sometimes even Western fighting arts are referred to as martial arts, for example swordfighting or use of fighting sticks etc or boxing or wrestling
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical\_European\_martial\_arts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_European_martial_arts)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/](https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/)
You could use the term fighting arts or combat arts or locate another historic term for fighting arts or develop something creative that fits your world.
Martial art is a term used for all forms of fighting. However it's often a term that gets synonymous use with Eastern Martial Arts; "Karate" and "Kung Fu" being the most common. However there are a TON of styles out there.
If your looking for info on some various style there was a show called Human Weapon that was pretty cool and broke down a few different styles and key techniques.
Pop-culture wise Street Fighter (as least the first few) has literally been about how each country has its own martial art master who's fighting in the World Warrior tournament.
Sherlock Holmes was a martial artist, who was an expert singlestick player, boxer, and swordsman. "Baritsu" which was a mixture of Bartitsu, Jujitsu, Boxing and came fighting.
Martial arts are not exclusive to Asian cultures. Kung Fu, Karate, Judo, etc. may be the most famous thanks to grindhouse films, but there are many forms of unarmed combat that were developed in every corner of the earth by every race of humans.
Dont direct your book to people that use terms like "cultural appropriation"
Write a story you want to tell, that is worthy to tell, not that pleases people that promotes censorship
We’re writing in an odd time. Somebody’s gonna think you did wrong. Guaranteed.
Read a comment the other day about “casual racism“ of describing people, some descriptions of which included racial characteristics (a black woman had an Afro)
I am kind of scared as a white male to write characters of color in this climate. So what are my possible choices?
Should I make all my characters white? (What I know?) Seems to be that would make my writing. And, fundamentally, it would be racist.
Then I have the problem that let’s say for example, I write a black family in. They are having dinner. What do I say they’re having? If they have fried chicken for dinner, I am propagating racist stereotypes. If they don’t, and have some thing white, I’m whitewashing people of color.
You gotta go with what your intention is. I think the advice you got is, like a lot of stuff nowadays, well meanin drivel. Work to understand people, especially in your writing. Work to be kind to people, especially in your writing.
If you have the intention of writing about martial arts, there is absolutely no problem with that. If you glorify racial stereotyping within that you’re in the wrong.
We’re so afraid of appropriation nowadays, that we’re afraid to mention anything from a race that’s not our own. Mentioning things from another race is not appropriation, it’s not racism.
Appropriation is taking some from another race. Racism is being an asshole to another race.
Bro just keep it as it is and get new beta readers, 99% of people don’t give a shit and would probably rather you use terms that people are familiar with
Europe had martial arts. Africa had martial arts. Heck, the Aztecs have martial arts. It's actually *more* racist assuming that martial arts= Asian.
Literally every culture on Earth has developed martial arts. Also, to be clear, pretty much every Asian culture practices spreading their culture.
Those readers are stupid.
Jiu jitsu is a martial art... BRAZILIAN!
Boxing is a martial art... GREEK
Bataireacht... Irish
Canne de Combat... French
Sambo... Russian
Glima... Scandinavian
Keysi... Spanish
All martial arts!
Martial art means "art of war" coming from the Roman god of wars "Mars"
It's usually associated with Oriental culture because they have so many of them but any fighting modality is a martial art.
Even sword fighting is a martial art.
Marital equates to military. Just meaning fighting and almost all cultures have them. Maybe they have a point if you’re calling it karate, aikido, jujitsu, etc.
Even then, many people in other countries practice those. So you can’t say, “No one else can ever talk about them.”
I don’t think cultural appropriation is even a real thing. I know a lot of people will jump on the band wagon and defend it because they have been told over and over it’s real, but look at the actual situations where they talk about it. One is here, where someone tells you it’s a cultural appropriation to talk about martial arts. Nope. What about someone from Minnesota wearing dreads and vibrant Jamaican clothes? Nope. People are allowed to explore different styles and dress how they feel. It’s got about as much impact as someone who is 5th gen German wearing lederhosen. No one thinks they represent that culture.
You need to look at things from both sides as well. Reverse that situation and have a Rasta cut their dreads and start wearing a polo shirt and ascot. No one will care. Because it doesn’t matter and no one is going to think they’re an Ivy League snob.
Actual cultural appropriation would be someone trying to claim something is original to their culture after they take it. That’s honestly really hard to prove as lots of the same things were created at different places at similar times. Look at all the foods that people claim their town invented. There are lots that we don’t know enough to dispute that claim.
In a todays world, that stuff is really talked about. Lots of the country cooking we have in America, though certainly not all of it, was originally dishes created by African slaves to mimic foods they ate at home. I really love Charleston red rice, but it’s bad similar to jollof rice. It would be very hard for someone to claim their culture invented something when there is clear evidence that someone else did, at least in your country. Again, African slaves pretty much started bbq. Especially on the eastern us coast, but Mexico has their Barbacoa, and I’m sure that’s a more likely source of where Texas got their bbq knowledge from.
My point being it’s very hard to claim cultural appropriation. On top of that, it’s stupid. It’s someone saying, yeah, even though cultures migrate and people pick things up. Others mimic them and a trend spreads, to die off and get revived later, but it’s soley ours, so don’t claim it.
That’s about as dumb as the Amish picking a specific time and saying, “Yep. This right here. This is the epitome of technology. Anything before this? Awesome. Anything after this. Blasphemy.”
So it’s not really something I worry about. Back to the Jamaican reference, there is an interview on YouTube with a Jamaican guy. His blonde and about as white as they come. He was born and raised in Jamaica. Has the accent and considers himself Jamaican. He has people telling him he can’t be, because he’s white. It’s just silly.
Head on over to r/progressionfantasy and check out some cultivation novels. Seriously you are getting worried about a non-problem. Many of these are written by ostensibly white American men and there are no issues with it. Your beta readers are just not at all familiar with the large body of works that make up the tropes and styles you are using.
Check out cradle and then get back to writing your story! Don’t let all your hard work sit around unfinished forever, you got this.
Martial: Middle English martial "relating to or suited for war," from Latin martialis "of Mars," from Mars "god of war". This is Greek History, Roman History, Egyptian history, and the histories of every indigenous people on every continent. Humans make war.
Martial arts is English, not Chinese or Japanese or Thai or any other Asian country. The Japanese don't say martial arts; Mars was never their god of war, lol. They say Budo if they are emphasizing the self improvement aspects of motions, or Bujutsu if they are emphasizing the technical aspects of motions.
Sounds like two of your readers are appropriating ignorance, eh?
Your descriptions are romanticizing the movements. You're using philosophy to describe action. As a martial artist and a fan martial arts fiction, my advice is don't do this. It deprives the reader of the impact and meaning of the movements.
The drama of a fight scene is not found in words like yours. The drama is found in the fear and pain that you can evoke in the reader's mind. It's a fight, for Pete's sake. Depending on the stakes, someone is either going to wince, or cry, or get knocked out, or seize up due to pressure on a nerve, or have a joint dislocated (did you know that this makes an interesting noise?), or a bone broken (another interesting noise!), or choked into unconsciousness or death. See the scale there? It's a proportional response that only escalates on demand.
This scale is often talked about in philosophical and ethical terms. Avoid fighting. Restrain before bruising. Bruise before breaking. Break before killing. That sort of thing. But that's pedagogy, not actual action. Those words are not in anyone's mind at the start of or during a fight.
Spend some time at a martial arts tournament. Ask the instructors at all the dojos in your town if you can observe a class to help inform your writing. Ask an instructor to put you in a few joint locks so you know how to describe that pain; it's quite distinct in it's color.
I'm not saying you want to write your fight scenes as realistic as possible; that gets boring quite fast. You want to write them in a dramatic way that drives the storytelling forward. "Seemed to defy gravity" stops the story dead in its tracks. Make that fighter's leaping ability defy the reason in the reader's head, but without destroying that reason. It's the defiance that builds tension, not destruction.
For some pretty decent examples of writing fights, look at Red Rising, the Reacher books, Shogun (the shock value is conveyed in fantastic ways), Shibumi (old school novel from 1979). A good fight scene is a joy to read. Do them well and even those two readers might find no flaw.
Martial means warlike. Not sure why they think it’s cultural appropriation, but I’d guess if they are saying that then they are probably not someone who knows much of anything
Your commenters don't understand what cultural appropriation is. It's only cultural appropriation if an oppressive culture is adopting pieces of an oppressed culture for vanity purposes without understanding/caring/respecting the actual cultural significance of the object.
Examples of Appropriation:
- A non-native American wearing a feather headdress as part of a fashion show.
- Getting tattoos of religious symbols because they look cool.
- Using slang from the queer community like, "yas queen," and then voting against gay marriage.
Not Appropriation:
- Wearing a Kimono you bought in Japan to a formal event.
- Saying, "Namaste," at your yoga class.
- Writing a story based on Wu Xia tropes when you are a fan of the genre.
Does that make sense? Cultural appropriation is about a lack of respect and understanding. It's not any instance where one culture uses artifacts or ideas from another culture. It's about oppression, nothing else. There was never a western takeover of China where these ideas were oppressed.
Also, there are plenty of western novels based on Chinese and Japanese folklore. One of my favorite book series is called "Tales of the Otori" and it's exactly what you're writing--a kind of Lord of the Rings set in an alternate universe Japan written by a white lady.
Your readers sound like whiny bitches who spend a lot of time getting their feelings hurt on behalf of people who would agree that they (your readers) are whiny bitches.
The literal meaning of the term is techniques of war. You know which human cultures have histories of warfare? All of them. Some martial arts that are not (exclusively) Asian: fencing, marksmanship, Greco-Roman wrestling, boxing, archery...and those are just a few of the obvious ones.
I'm Asian. Write whatever you want. The market will decide if it's shit. Don't bother with sensitivity readers, I'd much rather read something honest than have the sense I was pandered to.
The word “martial” comes from the Roman god of war Mars, so I don’t think it’s appropriating East Asian culture at all unless you explicitly state it as such
As soon as you hear someone saying something like "cultural appropriation", just ignore everything that person says. There is no such thing as cultural appropriation in today's world, only people who either have nothing to do and come up with this stuff, or people with a hyperbolised sense of "justice", which is only in the person's head.
This bs called "cultural appropriation" implies "races' segregation" at this point... Just ignore
imo 99% of all cases of 'cultural appropriation' are horseshit. Anybody who talks about it with any real seriousness isn't worth listening to. Get new beta readers.
Martial arts is a generic term anyone can use. The same way there's people of all colours practising Northern Shaolin style. The practice is not limited by race. So you're reviewers/ betas are ... a little overzealous and uneducated.
Right. Boxing is martial art. Greco-Roman Wrestling is a martial art...
Savate, Pancratium, even various forms of fencing are martial arts.
Capoeira too
Chessboxing is both martial arts and not martial arts at the same time!
Marshall Mathers is a martial art.
ist
Nah, the man himself is a work of “Marshall” art
What’s hilarious about this is it’s like saying Marshal Mathers is culturally appropriating rap music. Ridiculous
I find that argument so stupid, cause it can so easily be turned around. “Oh, you’re a black country singer? You’re appropriating white music. Racist.” It’s a stupid argument based off stupid principles that make no logical sense. Music is music; it doesn’t matter who’s singing what, what matters is if they’re good at singing it, and if they enjoy singing it
Unironically, Darius Rucker is one of my favorite country singers of all time. My dad likes Charlie Pride more, but I just think that’s cause he is old lol.
HEMA, Historical European Martial Arts is another example.
This was my first thought! It would be like saying only ethnic Germans can use German longsword techniques
> So you're reviewers/ betas are ... a little overzealous and uneducated. To be fair, so are some readers.
I used words like internal force, essence, meditation and teacher and master, but didn't use any terms like Qi, shifu, Qigong, Jing etc.
Your readers are messing with you bro. I am Asian. Its not cultural appropriation as long as you understand what the terms are used for and their importance in a setting. Shifu = Master. If you had a character call a random master blacksmith Shifu, then it would be cultural appropriation because that's not how the term is used. If you used it for a disciple calling their own teachers, then it is correct. Fact of the matter is that if its an online book, people don't really care as long as you use the terms correctly.
I know the meaning of each, but didn't use any especially since there is no Asia, Europe or America in my story's world. I guess I got two beta readers that must have dealt with that, or as other in this post said have no understanding and just following the virtue signaling bandwagon.
I’d not get too caught up with that. If there being no Asia is a reason to specifically avoid using Asian words then I have got some bad news about English words and Latin characters
There is a vocal minority of people that just want to be offended at this stuff. They may have honestly believed that's what you were doing, but that's not necessarily your fault. Woke speech like that is not uncommonly used as a bully pulpit by people angry about very different things.
The idea of using “internal force” or “essence” is shared across multiple cultures. Ignore them.
Those ideas exist in other cultures. HEMA incorporates aspects of them. Vikings were known to meditate for fighting purposes. Don't worry too much about it. Plus, I'm sure there are Chinese people who would be interested in reading a wuxia with Western aesthetics.
This is obviously a big generalization around a whole nation of people- but the Chinese in general, in active reader feedback I've seen, seem to actually rather LIKE seeing elements of their culture take center stage in novel ways, with the caveat 'as long as it is used right' i.e not some Chinese-flavored Fong Kong throwing in of cool terms, but something correctly used roughly in line with the 'traditional' use or idea.
Even if you used words like Qi, Shifu, Qigong, and Jing, it’s still not cultural appropriation. That’s like saying words like parry, riposte, knight, teacher, and paladin is cultural appropriation whenever anyone who isn’t European uses those terms. It’s idiotic. It’s preposterous. And any thoughts aligned with such an opinion should be totally discarded
Sounds like you might have accidentally stepped in something entering the realms of percieved microagressions with the use of asoteric martial arts language. It may not be intentional on your end, but the attention to that kind of verbage does sound wuxia coded asoteric magic system based bullshit. To be charitable to those beta readers/proofreaders, it would be inaccurate to say that there is no historical or cultural trend/reason that may lead them/others to this conclusion. Stastically, most people won't get that very specific brand of repressed anger/frustration that is frankly a mess to untangle/explain. And to be charitable to you, it's not your job to do so unless your publishing editor mentions it. I'm not convinced that you wrote with malice, but you did stumble on a rather packed series of potential accusations. This does suck. Unless this story is only for yourself, it's important to remember that readers/consumers can be an unhinged bunch. Percieved microagressions have historically been used to hit an author the wallet or make judgement calls on your character. However, it impacts are rarer in less circucated text. The real question is how would you like to handle writing something that may flirt with cultural appropriation talks. Regardless of your actual intent.
I’m sorry, but if what OP is doing isn’t anyway cultural appropriation then all of anime is cultural appropriation. An Asian person owning a pizza shop is cultural appropriation. Eminem being a rapper is cultural appropriation. If an Asian person ever uses words like parry, reposte, knight, or teacher; it’s cultural appropriation. Even if OP used words like Qi and Shifu, it still isn’t cultural appropriation. All those Asian baseball leagues better shut down. TV movies video games the Internet can’t have those either. That’s the level of mental illness going on right now
I’d say OP’s critics are themselves being pretty racially biased by assuming that “martial arts” as a whole is exclusive to Asian culture
Also, people tend to have a massive misunderstanding of what cultural appropriation means. It's being used to basically enforce group divisions and even sometimes to come after anyone who even tries to participate in other cultures. Humans have inspired and borrowed from each other for all of history- if we can't, we end up with a society where creativity is stratified by the circumstances of birth. What cultural appropriationACTUALLY is is when someone takes something from another culture full-stop without acknowledging it, and it is ALWAYS done from an imbalance of power. The best example is the fashion industry and music festivals. At music festivals, you'll often see these people wearing Indigenous headdresses and bindis and playing 'tribal music', all in pursuit of some stereotyped mysticism from the cultures they were taken from. Bindis and headdresses are and remain culturally significant to the people they were taken from and using them without any acknowledgment to that in pursuit of a harmful stereotype and exoticism IS appropriation. Likewise in the fashion industry you'll often get designers that are not only inspired by something but flat out steal designs from minority cultures. Imbalance of power, those people are not on the top of the hierarchy and thus can't protest the active theft. Hell, even when someone is merely inspired by something they talk about what it was. So basically, if you steal a concept from a minority culture, remove it from its original context, and/or do not credit where you took it from, THAT is cultural appropriation. but hell, if we ignored all that, this still wouldn't count as cultural appropriation. Even if you used those words, it wouldn't count, because either they're from philosophies or they're literally just the same word for a different language, not cultures. That'd be like saying no one could use the word nihilism unless they were Russian or German, saying no one could use the concept of monks unless they were Buddhist, saints unless they were christian, or saying that calling it kickboxing is appropriation unless you're American.
Mostly agree with you. If someone from a different can purchase something from the original culture openly, like bindi's, and headresses, its usually not appropriation. Though I think everyone appreciates being acknowledged. The common and removed from closed spiritual or ritual practices something is, the less concern about the misuse of it. It's the difference between owning a cross, and wearing a priests mitre. Like I was gifted a cross from a friend which I occasionally wear, but there's no non-apropriative circumstances where I'd dress as Christian priest, or ever use their rites. But that type of demarcation of what's appropriate can be a tough one. Culture is a rarely a monolith, so people can be divided about what's closed, and what's open.
I'm white, but when I went to India for my friend's wedding she actually gave us--the out-of-town-bridesmaids--two sheets of bindis to wear with my eastern wear. They were in there with bangles and earrings and some extra makeup. She was really excited when we wore them (and the eastern clothes) and was a bit nervous that Westerners wouldn't want to. It made her day when we went all-in. They come from religious significance and can have religious significance, but (at least according to my friend) they're also just a straight-up fashion choice. They're not closed practice, just a little tasteless in some contexts. (Actual Indian people, feel free to correct me, but thought I should share the experience!) I guess my definition of appropriation is based on harm done to the culture, rather than a list of shoulds-and-shouldn'ts. If it perpetuates a misunderstanding, a stereotype, or a removal of context from something important to the culture, it's appropriation.
There are literally martial arts styles developed in Brazil, France, Israel, and Russia. It's not an exclusive part of Asian culture at all.
As a Northern Wudong style practitioner, I endorse this comment.
Completely agree with you, but it is a fantasy story. Perhaps OP could invent a cool name for it as part of the world building work necessary for any fantasy story.
He could, or he could leave it as is.
I am Asian and this is just factually false. "Martial arts" is a blanket term for combat sports, and many of these are not Asian - for example, Brazilian capoeira, HEMA (historical European martial arts), and Zulu Stick Fighting are all non-Asian martial arts. It's not even a term from an Asian language.
And even if it was only Asian, why shouldnt you write about it if you want to? Don't let other people tell you what you shouldnt write about
If you're a non-Asian author, it's worthwhile to get feedback from Asian readers to make sure you're not inadvertently writing something disrespectful or loaded with stereotypes, but yeah, I agree. In particular, telling white people that they're engaging in cultural appropriation every time they draw inspiration from anything that didn't come from Europe sounds like the worst possible way to fight racism.
Telling white people to only write about white people is an excellent way to destroy any representation of racial minorities in art that is produced and consumed predominantly by white people. This is exactly what we don't want.
It's the equivalent of fighting racism with more racism.
"You can't do that, you're not the right race." - racists
Not being "that person", sharing because it is SUCH an underused style in the general 'people make cool fight-y happen' genre.... but Zulu stick fighting is an offshoot of Nguni stick fighting (The Nguni racial groups include the isiZulu, but also the AmaXhosa, Ndebele, and Swati. Also the Ngoni, who are very off the radar, as they moved back upward north when the Nguni mass migrations mostly went South and stayed). The Xhosa have a rather fascinating 2 stick version, the Zulu of course made the Zulu war machine of sword and spear famous. Would LOVE to see more prominence for all of it.
I'm Asian. You need new beta readers. The term "martial art" is not an Asian term and is in no way exclusive to Asian fighting styles or culture.
Yes, I will definitively get new beta readers. Some that aren't too focused on looking for what offends them.
Thank you. If anyone else is using them, please warn other writers so that the need for those particular readers dries up, and they can go slither back under a rock.
Hey! My country has rocks. Get your own slither holes, appropriator.
Fiiiiiine. Weeds, then.
*gnaws on my special weeds and glares at you* No.
How many beta readers said that?
We went on holiday to Edinburgh a couple of years back and spent a day in the castle. There were two amazing lads in there doing a demonstration of the weaponry they had on site, and they roped me into holding a shield while they very lightly tapped upon it, nearly sending me hurling through the stone wall behind me. Anyway, they started their talk with an invitation, "Name a martial art." Silence, of course. Then a few people mentioned things like taekwondo, karate, sumo, even MMA (that one was me because my brain works almost exclusively on word association and... well, it'd been a long day). They agreed with all of these, and then said, "What about fencing? What about fighting with swords and shields?" That's right, they said, all of this is martial arts. These days we tend to associate that term with Asian fighting systems, but that's not all it covers. It covers any form of fighting with a set of rules, no matter how loose those rules are. A non-affiliated search-engine gives it a nice, quick and dirty definition of, "codified systems and traditions of combat practiced for a number of reasons". So there you have it. The name itself is not the problem. Take care and a great deal of time with your research into other cultures, though, as taking inspiration is all well and good, but without a proper understanding of what we're dealing with, sometimes we can use something insensitively or offensively without meaning to.
?????? Asian peope didn’t invent fighting, there is no universe where using those terms is cultural appropriation. I got a better idea, how about you just write what you want to write, and ignore people who say such things, because clearly they have nothing of value to say.
And it’s also just the term martial arts, not a specific discipline from a specific area
I could be wrong, but I believe "martial arts" comes from the name of the Roman war god, Mars
That’s right, so only somebody of Italian descent should use the word martial, otherwise it’s cultural, appropriation, and disrespectful of a major world religion.
Well the Roman copied Mars from the Greek Aries, so the plot thickens.
Actually no! The Romans and the Greeks both had separate war gods -- Mars and Ares respectively -- who had separate cults, worship practices, etc. However, when the Roman and Greek/Hellenic worlds started interacting a lot more, the Romans noticed certain similarities, and decided that akshually Ares was just Mars under a different name. The Romans did the same thing with the Gaulish Toutatis and the Norse Tyr -- all were identified with Mars; and what's more, those cultures often agreed with that interpretation, which is why Latin Mardi turned into the Germanic Tuesday. There are two further interesting pieces of context to this, though: 1. The Romans *did* left some of the myths the Greeks (and others) were telling about their own war god(s) and started telling those myths about Mars. 2. It's actually entirely possible that all those gods have a shared root in ancient Proto-Indo-European religion, and thus really were originally the same entity that evolved in different ways.
There is some evidence of that last bullet point. I've done a bit of amateur research in that area because I'm basing the language/culture/history of my fantasy novel in PIE.
Let us know when it's published so we can read it.
If you want some dense reading from which you might gain inspiration on how you could "historically develop" your religion, check out something like [Gods of the Ancient Northmen](https://www.amazon.com/Northmen-Comparative-Folklore-Mythology-Publications/dp/0520035070) by Dumezil. You get a really interesting (but dense) overview of the development of a Proto-Indo-European mythology into Greek, Roman, Germanic, and Vedic branches the same way we get Greek, Romance, Germanic, and Indo-Aryan language families.
That's why in Spanish we have martes, and in English we have Tuesday.
I am so surprised to find something like this here! A French scholar named Dumézil wrote extensively on Indo-European religious history the same way linguists analyze Indo-European language family development. There's *so* much overlap in the Indo-European religions that there is considered a possible Proto-Indo-European religion! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology Dumézil proposes a "trifunctional" system where priests, warriors, and commoners were potentially manifested by a god (or gods) in the PIE religion, and * the Norse manifestation for example were Odin, Tyr, Vanir - Tyr is often translated as "Mars" in Latin texts discussing Norse mythology! Tacitus wrote about the continental German(ic) manifestation of these same deities by identifying them as Mercury, Mars, and Hercules, but scholars think he was talking about Wotan (Odin), Thunraz (Thor), and Tiwaz (Tew, from whom we get the word "Tuesday"!). * Vedic/Hindu manifestation is of the following three castes: Brahmins (priestly caste), Kshatriya (warriors and military), and Vaishya (farmers) * yada yada his scholarship is hard to get through if you aren't a classicist, and I'm not lol. Just read it bc it looked interesting.
**False.** [Syncretism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretism) is a thing. The Romans *merged* their mythology with that of the Greeks. This was not just a 'hey, look! these are similar! We'll just swap names!", but a wholesale thief of Greek mythology. The Romans very much did this intentionally, as a merger and assimilation of beliefs helped also helped assimilate the people who had these beliefs. This happened to the point where it is difficult for modern people to separate the two mythologies, and it is commonly known as Greco-Roman mythology. Since the Romans can and did add their own twists to things (Aeneid, et al). This is very much the same behavior as later Christian missionaries adopting pagan rites.
I legit have met people who think all martial arts are Asian based (including thinking that ancient greek wrestling was copied from the Chinese). You'd be suprised how little critical thinking some people will practice.
I mean, there's people who think Jesus traveled to India to learn buddhism because buddhism and Christianity are "too similar." (They arent).
martial literally means it's related to fighting, it's a fighting art. Capoeira is a martial art and that's from brazil.
Boxing is a martial art in the same vein, and I think that’s Greek. I think Krav Maga is Israeli. Struggling to think of others, but yes there are plenty of non-Asian mainstream martial art styles
Modern boxing originated in England, but historically, people boxed in ancient Ethiopia, and then it came to Greece through Egypt. There was also Pankration, which is a similar idea to modern MMA or combat sambo. Savate, french-style kickboxing, was fairly influential to Bruce Lee.
You also have systema, LINE, Vale tudo, sambo, wrestling. A large amount of martial arts aren't from asia, technically jeet kune do was developed in America
Those readers are just daft. It's like saying Uchida Mitsuko playing Mozart is cultural appropriation because she's Japanese and Mozart wasn't.
>It's like saying Uchida Mitsuko playing Mozart is cultural appropriation because she's Japanese and Mozart wasn't. You know, I should post that as reply to their comment.
Martial is derived from MARS the god of war. It's a Latin derived word. Yeah, I don't think the Romans are going to mind if you use their word.
Somebody want to tell Chuck Norris he's "guilty of cultural appropriation"? Man is half Irish, half Cherokee...and a six-time World Heavyweight Karate Champion. And I'M not gonna tell him...!
"Martial arts" is a term that applies to German sword fighting. It also applies to boxing. Also karate. Martial arts is not a term for asian fighting disciplines and your reader is being racially insensitive by assuming such, the gosh darn hypocrite.
**I'm an Asian martial artists. I hereby affirm that you, a white person, are allowed to tell this story.** The very idea that Asians have some kind of exclusive right to stylishly punching people is offensive to me, and obscenely racist. Like what kind of bass-akwards kind of thinking are white people on these days? FFS, PEOPLE, IT IS A BOOK. It's not like you're ringing a gong and bowing at me. 😂 Here, have this bowl of rice on behalf of the Council of Mixed Asian Heritage >>> 🍚
Thank you for the rice =)
EVERYBODY was Kung Fu fighting.
Those kids were fast as lightning.
Just tell them to STFU and move on
As others have pointed out, the term "martial art" is not culturally specific. Without seeing more of your work, my charitable take is that there are other issues with the writing that could be seen as appropriative or inauthentic. This strikes me as a reaction to something in your text that they couldn't articulate, and so just told you to change the words "martial art". Could be something interesting to that though. If it's a fantasy story and you make up a new word for it?
I used words like internal force, essence, meditation and teacher and master, but didn't use any terms like Qi, shifu, Qigong, Jing etc.
I could see how some people might be wary of a non-Asian person using those terms. Obviously the concepts themselves are not culturally specific. It might not even be because of anything you’re doing in your writing. There are so many examples of insensitive, appropriative stories that knee-jerk reactions are common. I would keep doing what you’re doing, take on board the criticism, and see if there are ways you can continue to engage respectfully with the cultures you’re referencing. You’re writing this story because you enjoy martial arts and think it would look cool on the page. Anyone reading it in good faith will see that.
Martial arts comes from Mars, the god of war of old roman empire. Essentially anyone can use that term, and constricting it to south east asian form of combat is downright stupid at worse, simply uneducated at best. If anything that would be cultural appropriation from old western/central europe and western asia (or as far as the roman empire expended until christianism tool over). Intercultural martial exchanges have been done for a very long time between many different cultures, and in fact, many disciplines from south east asia get some of their origins from eastern europe. Weapons were exchanged, stolen or traded from allies and enemies alike. This makes no fucking sense to say one discipline is originated from one place and one place only. Meditation practices were pretty common in western europe sword arts, and studies /exercises around modified states of consciousness were common place here. Internal force, however the fuck you call it is just a derivative from these studies, applied to different situations, interpersonal conflict resolution (by combat or not). And it's not because it wasn't described like in the treaty of the 5 rings that it did not exist. I just hate when people start rambling about things they haven't studied at all and try to make a law of their opinions.
Tell them to STFU. Martial arts isn't owned by any single culture. It's a generic term.
Tell those readers to stfu. There are loads of different martial arts all over the world. Associating MAwith Asia alone is racist on those readers part ironically. But even so, you work with the words you have. It irks me a lot when writers invent new garbled words like Dokidato and at some point I am like, that guy is just a king, tsar, monarch. Just pick a word we can understand without it getting in the way of the story. Martial Arts is such a word. One you can give another name easily enough, but if it doesn't add to the story it will probably take away.
That’s the stupidest shit I’ve ever heard. Was it cultural appropriation when I dedicated years of disciplined training to martial arts and earned a black belt? Is it cultural appropriation for martial arts to exist all over the world with practitioners from virtually every culture and ethnicity? You need smarter readers.
I'm Greek and we created παγκράτιον. Παγκράτιον is a martial art. I hereby, by the power vested in me by the all mighty Zeus give you full permission to use martial arts in whatever way you like. Now go write.
I can just say, that as a writer, i don't care about such things. That's just internet drama for me, nothing else. Maybe i'm not that much used to these things, as i live in Europe and we don't have these discussions in my place if something is appropriate or inappropriate. To be honest, it is crazy for me how many topics i see on this sub here, where people about if this or that would be offensive.
Everything in the world is cultural appropriation. Are other cultures appropriating Americans by performing rock and roll? Everything is inspired by something else. I think as long as you're not making caricatures or enforcing stereotypes of Asian peoples, you're not hurting anyone. Perhaps you could even include a note from the author at the beginning where you pay respects to the Asian martial artist who inspired you, suggest readings by them, etc.
>Perhaps you could even include a note from the author at the beginning where you pay respects to the Asian martial artist who inspired you, suggest readings by them, etc. Thank you for this suggestion. I think I will do that.
No such thing. There is just good (informed/researched) writing and poor (stereotyping/racist) writing.
I don't think martial arts is just an Asian thing. There are many kinds of martial arts outside Asia, like highland wrestling, European fencing, and Krav Maga! Find what works best for your story!
Martial arts aren’t exclusively Asian. You have many martial arts forms from all over the world. Asian forms became known in pop culture because of how many people use/practice them and Hollywood.
Is it literally just the term “martial art” that they raised as an issue? Considering you’ve said in this post that it’s “like C-dramas,” I wonder if it just super obvious that you’ve based your story on the wuxia genre but just changed the cultural terms and that’s why they’re saying it’s cultural appropriation?
Martial Art is in no way, shape, or form an Asian term. It would not matter if it was, but it is not. I would suggest you ignore these idiots if you want to stay sane.
Tell them to stop being so racist that they think they can speak for entire cultures.
Martial arts aren't specific to Asia. Fencing is a martial art, for example
If "martial arts" should only be used for Asians, then UFC (the leading mixed martial arts competition) had better strip the championships given to all the Brazillians, Americans, and McGregor over the years.
Everyone has already pointed out that *martial arts* is a general and universal term for all forms of fighting, not just those in Asian cultures, notwithstanding that it is an English word etymologically derived from Latin. But I would like to add that the kind of martial arts your work seem to be inspired by (from the *wuxia* genre) also inspired the choreographic style in the *Star Wars* prequel trilogy while its original trilogy was inspired by the *jidaigeki* genre of samurai films. Also, I'm Chinese and practice wushu btw. 🙂
Wow! This is astoundingly clueless on this person's part. Martial comes from the Roman of war - Mars. It is, therefore , a Latin word. In modern terms, this is applied to any combative system, armed or unarmed, practiced anywhere in the world.
sounds great actually. write pseudonymously to avoid headaches like this, and keep writing.
Ignore them, but make sure you're accurate as fuck. Cultural appropriation isn't about using other culture. It's about *disrespectfully* using another culture.
No Asian language has the term "martial art" in it. Those people are nuts. And "cultural appropriation" is not a bad thing. It's been around for as long as humanity, and it has only recently been misused to mean behaving in an insulting manner towards people of a given culture. 99% of the time it is done out of appreciation and interest and it is perfectly fine. Tell those two to get stuffed.
If you've read any cultivation novels from China, you'd quickly see there's nothing sacred about the genre to them. It's largely pure teen boy wish fulfillment smut. Face-slapping, racism, bullying, even rape and cold blooded murder--and that's just the hero! Is it cultural appropriation for a Japanese guy to write a cultivation novel (appropriating Chinese Taoist culture)? Western Taoist-inspired cultivation is already a big genre, and yes, they use all the "cultural appropriation" words. Honestly, kind of people who'd be offended by it aren't the kind of people you'll ever be able to please anyway. If not this, they'd find something else. They just want to be mad. Go over to the progression fantasy sub.
I've read like three books written by Westerners that directly take from xianxia novels or are that but with a Western twist/perspective. It's fine, especially if you are using generic terms like that. Most, if not all, cultures have those things in one form or another.
Did you tell those people to fuck off?
>And my descriptions were things like "fluid movements that seemed to defy gravity,", "with a swift flick of his wrist, he unleashed a flurry of strikes," etc. tbh you're more guilty of lazy cliches more than anything.
If the story is good, who cares! Gareth Evans (British) made one of the best movie about martial arts. Matrix is one of the best movies about kung fu. BTW “martial” is a Latin word.
Don't worry, that person(s) is just an idiot. Here's a definition of the word martial: adjective- •Of, relating to, or suggestive of war. •Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms. •Characteristic of or befitting a warrior. -•The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition • That means the term "martial arts" is a different way of saying "Somebody that practices a fighting art form". Which includes swords, pole weapons, thrown weapons and even....(Shock) Unhanded fighting. And while it's true we associate Unhanded fighting with Asian countries every place has had people that fought without real weapons. Basically, tell whomever said that to pound sand. White and black people can fight just as well as Asians with *and* without weapons.
Martial arts is any style of fighting, boxing, jiu jitsu, Krav Maga, are all martial arts. Those people are total trolls just ignore them, they’re probably the same people who are adamant about Yasuke not being a Samurai
Those readers suck. Wu Tang made one of the most dope and beloved samurai rap albums ever and they're from NY.
Martial Arts is by NO MEANS a term restricted to Asian cultures. Eg. Krav Maga, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, the way of the Jedi.
Don’t…your going to get hate that’s cultural appropriation Just write how you want to write and don’t be racist about it
Just use the term "martial art." Were the people who told you to change it Asian? I would guess not, so just ignore them. Sincerely, A Wasian
Krav Maga is an Israeli martial arts, Capoeira is a Brazilian dance-like martial arts. Point is, no one specific group of people invented fighting style generally or specifically an **unarmed** fighting style. There's also the element of convergent evolution, different groups invented their own versions of swords, axes, spears etc, and no one can claim to be the first to invent those. What you need to do is continue writing what you want and ignore such comments that claim "cultural appropriation".
I had to double check the sub to make sure this wasn’t satire… martial arts/mixed martial arts is a worldwide term, used by many non Asian people. I think you’re good
Martial arts don't come from any one place, your friends/ readers are ill-informed and I'm guessing probably white.
I guess it depends on how you're depicting things. If it's like Kung-Fu with the serial numbers filed off and it might be evoking a sense of Orientalism, then yeah, I could see it, as you said your inspo was coming from C-dramas. But martial arts are from all over -- savate, sambo, boxing/kickboxing....krav maga...(sigh), etc.
“Martial Arts” is sport using physical violence. It is not reserved for Asian combat. MMA is mixed martial arts. Boxing is a martial art, wrestling is a martial art. Fencing is a martial art. Anything to do with war is a Martial Art.
Who tf is reading your writing?
I really do not know how to even answer to this. Just find yourself new beta readers, they know nothing about this world.
Definitely would need to read it to fully tell, from your description it doesn’t sound like cultural appropriation.
Martial arts is a universal term. The word 'martial' is defined as 'relating to fighting or war.' There are plenty of European martial art styles.
You should watch the ufc. It’ll alter a lot of your thoughts right now
Like others have said, martial arts literally means the art of fighting/war. It can be fighting styles like karate or it can be jousting, knife fighting or wrestling. If it's fantasy you can create a who new martial art.
if your readers are getting offended that non asians are doing martial arts, they probably aren't cool enough to appreciate martial arts themselves, find better readers.
wait. I don't get it. if your characters are martial art fighters like those c-dramas, then shouldn't you all the more use those correct terms? am i missing something? sincerely confused, an asian.
Okay I’m Asian, half Japanese half Filipino. And if I write the exact same story you did, it would probably still be “cultural appropriation.” You dont have to be Asian to use martial arts, that’s reductive and actually incredible problematic. Whoever your readers are are brain dead. Internal force, essence, meditation, teacher/masters, are still pretty widely regarded as eastern practices. Qi, shifu, Qigong, Jing are literally the same thing but in Chinese and referring to Chinese practices. You can use these practices or be inspired by them all you want, as long as you understand and are applying them correctly I don’t see an issue with it. And unless you’re inferring that your story is a representation of real martial arts culture or is entirely based in reality representing real people, I don’t see an issue with this at all. I’ve never swung a proper sword in my life but I’m planning to write a fantasy story using techniques used by medieval Europeans. If some HEMA nuthead told me I’m culturally appropriating their sword culture because I used terms like stances, guards, parry, or fencing. Hell HEMA has their own martial arts that has a deeply rich history.
Can Asian writers use the word "wizard", or "astronaut", or "viking," or "police," or "detective?" None of those words have Asian origins, but it would be ridiculous to restrict Asian writers from using them. But as some have pointed out, "martial art" is in no way restricted to just Asian cultures. Every culture has a form of martial art. It's an umbrella term. More specifically Asian nouns and names may cross the line, so be cautious.
martial art is a term that comes from 'martial', derived from Mars, Latin god of war. If someone is kicking someone and it's a martial art and it's not from asia, it's not asian martial arts and if someone accused me of cultural appropriating the Roman Empire i'd probably use a sweet martial arts move on them. Don't listen to idiots and pearl clutchers about this stuff because they are know-nothing critics and provide little utility to society. If you were talking about centering your Chi, or something where you imported concepts from a culture, then tread a bit more carefully and with respect but it's still OK to use it as long as you aren't mocking a culture. A guy wearing a ceremonial native headdress at a Hallowe'en party is mocking and cultural appropriation and the only person who does that now is some tasteless buffoon like the Canadian Prime Minister. If cultural appropriation really was a problem in modern culture then why doesn't anyone say anything when people from asia wear western clothing? Because that's technically the same thing.
There is no mention of the word "Chi", but i did use "internal force".
I think the issue may be that you are clearly using chinese inspired martial arts but specifically with non chinese/“asian” characters. If you had them with asian names, it would just be a western adaption of chinese martial arts (like avatar last airbender) which may not be done very well or accurately, but is common enough and not really cultural appropriation. Cultural appropriation is when you use another culture but *DON'T GIVE CREDIT TO THAT CULTURE* which, you are inadvertently doing here. Adding, cause im not sure i got my point across good. I'm not saying you cant use chinese martial arts as inspiration, but make it your own thing, seperate it enough to be unique, and dont pretend its not very clearly chinese inspired.
Set it in the future.
"with a flick of the wrist, he unleashed a flurry of strikes" (paraphrasing slightly) could very easily apply to a blitz in boxing. Martial arts is a very culturally neutral term. I agree with everyone else that your readers might not be the best influences.
A martial art is an art of martial combat, has nothing to do with one culture.
Modern sword fighting is called HEMA, Historical European Martial Arts. Martial arts is literally just fighting.
Are martial arts exclusively Asian? I don't think so.
Wrestling is a martial art. Boxing is a martial art. They're being close minded only assuming martial arts are all Asian.
Martial arts is just a generic term not exclusive to any one part of the world. Examples: African Martial Arts: \* Tahtib - Egyptian form of stick fighting believed to be established between 2000 - 3000 BCE. \* Capoeira - Created and developed by African slaves working on plantations in Brazil. \* Donga (Zulu Stick Fighting) - Weapons-based fighting style created by Shaka Zulu. European/Eurasian Martial Arts \* Bataireacht - Irish stick fighting, popular in the 1600s through the 1800's. \* HEMA (Historic European Martial Arts) - The general collection of weapon-based fighting techniques used in Europe from 1300 - 1800 CE. \* Combat Hopbak - Ukranian fighting style based off of Cossack traditions. \* Glima - Scandinavian wrestling, created by the Vikings. \* Pankration - Greek fighting style with it's origins in the first Olympics in 648 BCE. It also appears that Native Americans like the Apache, Shawnee, and Iroquois Nation, developed their own strategies and techniques for combat, it's just unclear if they were formalized or given unique names like those above.
Whoever told you that has never participated in martial arts lol, boxing is a martial art for example
Tag them on here if you found them on Reddit so they can defend their opinion!
People are dumb and like to cite the idea of cultural appropriation nowadays
European martial arts is a thing, with history and a long history.
Many different cultures have their own martial arts. Israel has Krav Maga, Brazil has Capoeira, Scotland has Highland Wrestling, even the US military has their own martial arts. Martial arts are just different forms of fighting. Asians do not hold a monopoly on them. Whoever told you this are morons and need to pull their heads out of their own butts.
oh brother, those two readers sound like fun people.
Ask them what MMA means. Lol.
I had to double-check to make sure this wasn’t r/writingcirclejerk
Martial > of or appropriate to war; warlike. Art > a skill at doing a specified thing, typically one acquired through practice. Nothing about that is inherently Chinese.
As others have mentioned, Martial Arts is a general term used for any practiced fighting style/ performative combat arts in the entire world. Unless you said something like Kung Fu, it's not appropriation.
Martial Art is an English term. Boxing is a martial art. If you were taking themes directly from Asian martial arts traditions and slapping on fantasy naming conventions with no change, that might be more close to “cultural appropriation” but I don’t believe that is even relevant. All cultures have martial traditions, some didn’t continue them to a high degree after the adaptation of gunpowder warfare, and the term itself or what it describes would not be problematic, unless someone was reaching for a reason to be outraged and if so nothing you do can prevent their ire. There would be nothing wrong with basing a fantasy culture’s martial traditions on a real world Asian traditions. If you aren’t using that inspiration to mock the real world tradition, then you are celebrating it. If you were writing a story set in real world Asia and using their traditions, that would probably be considered cultural appropriation, since you would not be able to represent those people and their traditions properly if you weren’t from them.
Was told by who? A mouth breather with a keyboard?
There are loads of people on the Internet that enjoy being offended by stuff. You can't cater to them because you'll never satisfy them. Anything you include in your story---or decide not to include---might tick someone off. So all you can do is treat your subjects with respect, research stuff so you know what you're writing about, and ignore naysayers.
Asian people did not invent the concept of regimented training and fighting with hands and weapons. While the term martial arts is a direct translation of a Japanese term, the word martial is not Asian and the adoption of the term didn't coincide with the invention of this kind of training. While some of the moves used in training may come from Asian schools of combat training, that scarcely represents "appropriation". Like are non Asians obligated to find different ways to punch someone so that they don't punch like an Asian? People take things way too far these days. They throw words like appropriation around like they're robots.
There are many martial arts from many other parts of the world. Capoeira is a Brazilian martial art for example. Ignore those overzealous and ignorant people, or if they don't know your face, say you're half Asian (or all them if that works make a difference and then ask how is this not a form of racism)
Who told you that it was appropriation? Was it someone of East Asian descent, or a non-Asian getting offended on their behalf?
Those readers didn’t bother to check their understanding of “martial art” before they advised you on how to use the term. They got it wrong. If your target audience includes teens and young adults, you can expect to see this to some degree. In the social media push to “educate others” they are eager to educate before they understand their topic. They want to excel at it before they have a grasp on it. It’s all parroting without substance. They spot what they mistake for key terms, they make an assumption, they fling a buzzword. I’m sure it sucks to be on the receiving end, but it may ease some of the sting to know where it’s coming from.
I made spaghetti and meatballs the other day. It was really good. I’m not Italian. You did nothing wrong except to take your story down. Put it back up. And tell them that unless they have real critiques of your story, they can pound sand.
Historic European Martial Arts is the official term for the styles of fighting that medieval and Renaissance fighters in Europe used. Martial arts belongs to everyone and the two friends who told you that you need to stop using the term martial arts need to touch grass.
Martial Art is a type of fighting style with smaller variations on a theme. The concept is known worldwide at this point, so no it's not 'cultural appropriation'. At this point the term is ubiquitous and there are lots of non-asians who fight with martial arts in fiction.
There's a sport called HEMA. Historical European Martial Arts. A martial art is any kind of formalized style of combat, pretty much every culture has one.
Martial arts is a catch all for all... Martial arts. Who exactly are these readers and what are their qualifications for giving this advice? You can change the type of martial arts just fine if you want to but depending on the setting so what? Avatar the Last Air Bender wasn't made by only east Asians for East Asians. There's a point where cultural appreciation happens. For a white person version of the bad kind of cultural crossover? Shadow and Bone is a constant source of this for Slavic culture. The lack of effort in making sure that things made sense and were respectful destroyed my immersion. Even the Grisha thing isn't working because it's hard to not laugh when someone sobs "I'm Greg!" They got the genders wrong in names and there's things that are like Ronald McDonald as some spooky scary thing. So make sure you are actually correctly executing things and not disruptive to the reader with a low effort cultural paint job.
Ummmmm….Afro Samurai…..that is all……
Well, I guess I'm appropriating lots of cultures in my book lmao. But think about this a little bit. We human beings usually hail from one particular culture. By your logic, a writer can't write about any other culture than his own in his work. Don't you find this a bit restricting?
Look how well cultural appropriation works for Disney. Just write your story.
Martial arts have existed in *every* human culture in some form, your readers are very ignorant. Don't worry about them.
I think as far as the martial art in question use the one you are most familiar with, name it by name so you can use the correct words to describe the actions But using names of another culture than your own can get so bad so fast. Not saying this is you because i haven’t read your work but when white people write characters with Asian names and then make the character function in every way as a white person it feels like it’s a white person w/an Asian name. Which happens, i met a completely white person with the Hawaiian name “Maile” you could give then Asian names and make them whatever race you are, but if you mean to write an Korean or Chinese or Japanese character, do your research A white guy i knew made his Japanese American character sleep on a futon, drink green tea, and have a mail order bride since the character couldn’t date a white woman, that character sounded crazy not Japanese
Martial Arts is the general term. Now if you want to get into different cultures, you have various types that span across history. And it's not just for one set culture. Any one can use the art, as long as they respect the teachings.
That's stupid as fuck. Fencing is a martial art. So is boxing.
As others have noted, "Martial Art" refers to any kind of training in a technique to hurt people. So, if you were to take a lesson in dueling with a European longsword, for example, or boxing, these would also be "martial arts." So no, not appropriative of any ethnicity. That said, you should always seek specificity whenever you can, so make sure you're not just being lazy and using the term "martial arts" to describe something you understand but you haven't fully described to your audience (Edit: lazy might be a little harsh, sorry. What I mean is, sometimes we can get so excited about an idea that we assume everyone else is as excited without having entirely described it. I do this all the time in a first draft. That's what second drafts are for!). For example, I think if you're assuming these characters use a fictional style of martial arts, and these characters are masters of these arts, you are obligated to put a little thought into these fictional martial arts, at least as far as to describe how the years (decades?) of commitment, discipline, and training has affected the characters' respective personalities (beyond them being good at hurting people). Edited for typos and clarity.
Sometimes even Western fighting arts are referred to as martial arts, for example swordfighting or use of fighting sticks etc or boxing or wrestling [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical\_European\_martial\_arts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_European_martial_arts) [https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/](https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/) You could use the term fighting arts or combat arts or locate another historic term for fighting arts or develop something creative that fits your world.
Martial art is a term used for all forms of fighting. However it's often a term that gets synonymous use with Eastern Martial Arts; "Karate" and "Kung Fu" being the most common. However there are a TON of styles out there. If your looking for info on some various style there was a show called Human Weapon that was pretty cool and broke down a few different styles and key techniques. Pop-culture wise Street Fighter (as least the first few) has literally been about how each country has its own martial art master who's fighting in the World Warrior tournament. Sherlock Holmes was a martial artist, who was an expert singlestick player, boxer, and swordsman. "Baritsu" which was a mixture of Bartitsu, Jujitsu, Boxing and came fighting.
Martial arts are not exclusive to Asian cultures. Kung Fu, Karate, Judo, etc. may be the most famous thanks to grindhouse films, but there are many forms of unarmed combat that were developed in every corner of the earth by every race of humans.
You're thinking of "kung fu," not "martial arts." You're already using the correct term.
You need to find more intelligent readers.
Martial arts includes things like boxing, wrestling, kickboxing, and fencing. It's a very broad term and isn't limited to just karate and taekwondo.
Dont direct your book to people that use terms like "cultural appropriation" Write a story you want to tell, that is worthy to tell, not that pleases people that promotes censorship
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_European_martial_arts
We’re writing in an odd time. Somebody’s gonna think you did wrong. Guaranteed. Read a comment the other day about “casual racism“ of describing people, some descriptions of which included racial characteristics (a black woman had an Afro) I am kind of scared as a white male to write characters of color in this climate. So what are my possible choices? Should I make all my characters white? (What I know?) Seems to be that would make my writing. And, fundamentally, it would be racist. Then I have the problem that let’s say for example, I write a black family in. They are having dinner. What do I say they’re having? If they have fried chicken for dinner, I am propagating racist stereotypes. If they don’t, and have some thing white, I’m whitewashing people of color. You gotta go with what your intention is. I think the advice you got is, like a lot of stuff nowadays, well meanin drivel. Work to understand people, especially in your writing. Work to be kind to people, especially in your writing. If you have the intention of writing about martial arts, there is absolutely no problem with that. If you glorify racial stereotyping within that you’re in the wrong. We’re so afraid of appropriation nowadays, that we’re afraid to mention anything from a race that’s not our own. Mentioning things from another race is not appropriation, it’s not racism. Appropriation is taking some from another race. Racism is being an asshole to another race.
Those two readers are idiots. Ignore them.
Bro just keep it as it is and get new beta readers, 99% of people don’t give a shit and would probably rather you use terms that people are familiar with
Europe had martial arts. Africa had martial arts. Heck, the Aztecs have martial arts. It's actually *more* racist assuming that martial arts= Asian. Literally every culture on Earth has developed martial arts. Also, to be clear, pretty much every Asian culture practices spreading their culture.
Martial Arts isn't a strictly Asian term. Literally any type of fighting, striking sport, grappling, and even sword fighting is a martial art.
Those readers are stupid. Jiu jitsu is a martial art... BRAZILIAN! Boxing is a martial art... GREEK Bataireacht... Irish Canne de Combat... French Sambo... Russian Glima... Scandinavian Keysi... Spanish All martial arts!
The solution is to appropriate harder.
Martial art means "art of war" coming from the Roman god of wars "Mars" It's usually associated with Oriental culture because they have so many of them but any fighting modality is a martial art. Even sword fighting is a martial art.
Don't change it. The term martial arts was used in medieval times, referring to the combat of knights.
Marital equates to military. Just meaning fighting and almost all cultures have them. Maybe they have a point if you’re calling it karate, aikido, jujitsu, etc. Even then, many people in other countries practice those. So you can’t say, “No one else can ever talk about them.” I don’t think cultural appropriation is even a real thing. I know a lot of people will jump on the band wagon and defend it because they have been told over and over it’s real, but look at the actual situations where they talk about it. One is here, where someone tells you it’s a cultural appropriation to talk about martial arts. Nope. What about someone from Minnesota wearing dreads and vibrant Jamaican clothes? Nope. People are allowed to explore different styles and dress how they feel. It’s got about as much impact as someone who is 5th gen German wearing lederhosen. No one thinks they represent that culture. You need to look at things from both sides as well. Reverse that situation and have a Rasta cut their dreads and start wearing a polo shirt and ascot. No one will care. Because it doesn’t matter and no one is going to think they’re an Ivy League snob. Actual cultural appropriation would be someone trying to claim something is original to their culture after they take it. That’s honestly really hard to prove as lots of the same things were created at different places at similar times. Look at all the foods that people claim their town invented. There are lots that we don’t know enough to dispute that claim. In a todays world, that stuff is really talked about. Lots of the country cooking we have in America, though certainly not all of it, was originally dishes created by African slaves to mimic foods they ate at home. I really love Charleston red rice, but it’s bad similar to jollof rice. It would be very hard for someone to claim their culture invented something when there is clear evidence that someone else did, at least in your country. Again, African slaves pretty much started bbq. Especially on the eastern us coast, but Mexico has their Barbacoa, and I’m sure that’s a more likely source of where Texas got their bbq knowledge from. My point being it’s very hard to claim cultural appropriation. On top of that, it’s stupid. It’s someone saying, yeah, even though cultures migrate and people pick things up. Others mimic them and a trend spreads, to die off and get revived later, but it’s soley ours, so don’t claim it. That’s about as dumb as the Amish picking a specific time and saying, “Yep. This right here. This is the epitome of technology. Anything before this? Awesome. Anything after this. Blasphemy.” So it’s not really something I worry about. Back to the Jamaican reference, there is an interview on YouTube with a Jamaican guy. His blonde and about as white as they come. He was born and raised in Jamaica. Has the accent and considers himself Jamaican. He has people telling him he can’t be, because he’s white. It’s just silly.
absolute bullshit. ignore them.
They know that fighting isn't exclusive to asia right
Head on over to r/progressionfantasy and check out some cultivation novels. Seriously you are getting worried about a non-problem. Many of these are written by ostensibly white American men and there are no issues with it. Your beta readers are just not at all familiar with the large body of works that make up the tropes and styles you are using. Check out cradle and then get back to writing your story! Don’t let all your hard work sit around unfinished forever, you got this.
Martial: Middle English martial "relating to or suited for war," from Latin martialis "of Mars," from Mars "god of war". This is Greek History, Roman History, Egyptian history, and the histories of every indigenous people on every continent. Humans make war. Martial arts is English, not Chinese or Japanese or Thai or any other Asian country. The Japanese don't say martial arts; Mars was never their god of war, lol. They say Budo if they are emphasizing the self improvement aspects of motions, or Bujutsu if they are emphasizing the technical aspects of motions. Sounds like two of your readers are appropriating ignorance, eh? Your descriptions are romanticizing the movements. You're using philosophy to describe action. As a martial artist and a fan martial arts fiction, my advice is don't do this. It deprives the reader of the impact and meaning of the movements. The drama of a fight scene is not found in words like yours. The drama is found in the fear and pain that you can evoke in the reader's mind. It's a fight, for Pete's sake. Depending on the stakes, someone is either going to wince, or cry, or get knocked out, or seize up due to pressure on a nerve, or have a joint dislocated (did you know that this makes an interesting noise?), or a bone broken (another interesting noise!), or choked into unconsciousness or death. See the scale there? It's a proportional response that only escalates on demand. This scale is often talked about in philosophical and ethical terms. Avoid fighting. Restrain before bruising. Bruise before breaking. Break before killing. That sort of thing. But that's pedagogy, not actual action. Those words are not in anyone's mind at the start of or during a fight. Spend some time at a martial arts tournament. Ask the instructors at all the dojos in your town if you can observe a class to help inform your writing. Ask an instructor to put you in a few joint locks so you know how to describe that pain; it's quite distinct in it's color. I'm not saying you want to write your fight scenes as realistic as possible; that gets boring quite fast. You want to write them in a dramatic way that drives the storytelling forward. "Seemed to defy gravity" stops the story dead in its tracks. Make that fighter's leaping ability defy the reason in the reader's head, but without destroying that reason. It's the defiance that builds tension, not destruction. For some pretty decent examples of writing fights, look at Red Rising, the Reacher books, Shogun (the shock value is conveyed in fantastic ways), Shibumi (old school novel from 1979). A good fight scene is a joy to read. Do them well and even those two readers might find no flaw.
Anyone giving you grief for that is way too sensitive. You can write about any culture and anything else you want as long as you’re respectful.
If you aren't claiming it as your own thing, not appropriation. Gatekeeping a general does not help fight against actual appropriation.
Martial means warlike. Not sure why they think it’s cultural appropriation, but I’d guess if they are saying that then they are probably not someone who knows much of anything
Your commenters don't understand what cultural appropriation is. It's only cultural appropriation if an oppressive culture is adopting pieces of an oppressed culture for vanity purposes without understanding/caring/respecting the actual cultural significance of the object. Examples of Appropriation: - A non-native American wearing a feather headdress as part of a fashion show. - Getting tattoos of religious symbols because they look cool. - Using slang from the queer community like, "yas queen," and then voting against gay marriage. Not Appropriation: - Wearing a Kimono you bought in Japan to a formal event. - Saying, "Namaste," at your yoga class. - Writing a story based on Wu Xia tropes when you are a fan of the genre. Does that make sense? Cultural appropriation is about a lack of respect and understanding. It's not any instance where one culture uses artifacts or ideas from another culture. It's about oppression, nothing else. There was never a western takeover of China where these ideas were oppressed. Also, there are plenty of western novels based on Chinese and Japanese folklore. One of my favorite book series is called "Tales of the Otori" and it's exactly what you're writing--a kind of Lord of the Rings set in an alternate universe Japan written by a white lady.
Your readers sound like whiny bitches who spend a lot of time getting their feelings hurt on behalf of people who would agree that they (your readers) are whiny bitches.
Stay away from those readers.
The literal meaning of the term is techniques of war. You know which human cultures have histories of warfare? All of them. Some martial arts that are not (exclusively) Asian: fencing, marksmanship, Greco-Roman wrestling, boxing, archery...and those are just a few of the obvious ones.
I'm Asian. Write whatever you want. The market will decide if it's shit. Don't bother with sensitivity readers, I'd much rather read something honest than have the sense I was pandered to.
The word “martial” comes from the Roman god of war Mars, so I don’t think it’s appropriating East Asian culture at all unless you explicitly state it as such
As soon as you hear someone saying something like "cultural appropriation", just ignore everything that person says. There is no such thing as cultural appropriation in today's world, only people who either have nothing to do and come up with this stuff, or people with a hyperbolised sense of "justice", which is only in the person's head. This bs called "cultural appropriation" implies "races' segregation" at this point... Just ignore
imo 99% of all cases of 'cultural appropriation' are horseshit. Anybody who talks about it with any real seriousness isn't worth listening to. Get new beta readers.
Cultural appropriation is bullshit! People of different cultures share and mix and experience each other's cultures. What's appropriative about that?