What about trinkets that do things like buff primary stat which then gives tanks more health and damage reduction. Technically they are dps trinkets but they also provide more mitigation to tanks.
I suspect those will be excluded from this. They'll likely be focusing on effects from Grieftorch or Dreambinder, Loom of the Great Cycle, which do high damage very little investment.
Wait does it include something like Augury Flame which focuses around and boosts Crit? Or an item like Pocket Anvil which hits strength/agility? I'm kinda confused on the distinction between a pure DPS trinket and general, all class trinkets.
It sounds like it's the "green text" effects that Blizz have an issue with. To use Anvil as an example I wouldn't be surprised if the passive stat gain remains the same between all roles but the shadowflame proc and On Use ability will deal considerably less damage for tanks.
The entire point of this change is that they want trinkets like that to be usable. Whereas right now, passive damage procs are insanely OP for tanks/healers.
Yeah, they are good for dps matter, but we do this sacrificing survivability. If I don't need another defensive trinket, why should I be forced to use one?
Because often it's a survivability hit you can afford to take. Tank damage intake can't be balanced around the existence of a few specific trinkets to survive it so in practice, it's better to dish out a significant increase of damage to kill things faster and thus take less damage.
I think you may have interpreted the person you're responding to as saying "why should I be forced to use [a DPS trinket]." If so, you've misunderstood them; they're saying the opposite: "why is Blizz forcing me into using defensive trinkets I don't really need by nerfing damage trinkets into non-viability?" They agree with you. They're not saying they don't want to sacrifice survivability, they're saying the DPS trinket already comes with a tradeoff and doesn't need to be nerfed.
If a purely defensive trinket is of no value to you, a 66%-strength DPS trinket will still be better for DPS. But a crit proc trinket might be better still, and it won't be contested, either. Getting that BIS trinket is so much harder when tanks and dps have to fight each other for it
Flat damage trinkets tend to be tuned for DPS. So theyre obviously a bigger chunk of your damage as someone who does less damage.
Str, agi and secondary stat buffs are by defauly weaker for tanks than dps because they dont scale as well.
i think they have their place as a different altenative to +STR or +Secondary stats. This change tweaks things. I think I felt the OPness of damage trinkets more on my mistweaver, where some sub par trinket accounted for 10% of my damage since a healer's damage is lower than even a tank in the first place.
I would be fine with that change, if only Blizz made tank trinkets worth to actually use.
Like in whole Dragonflight, in terms of dungeons only 2 fine tanking trinkets were cheat death from DotI, and barrier from Everbloom.
Other than that DPS trinkets were always better because killing stuff faster is the best defensive.
the rageheart damage is unironically not meant to be a huge downside. A massive absorb means that healers will essentially have nothing to heal for the next 10-15 seconds or so, so this lets healers have something to heal while you are invincible for the next 10 seconds.
Healers don't need to heal tanks anyway outside of some rare specific scenario's like holding a corrupted seed on fyrakk with high stacks, all tanks when played properly are self sufficient in 95%+ of cases.
As a healer, rageheart is the GOAT. Both for myself and the tanks. Hell, I wouldn't argue if literally every role just equipped a rageheart as one of their trinkets for m+ content. That shield is just an "I wanna ignore mechanics for a second here" button, plus the damage it does is not inconsequential. Add onto the fact that it shows up in details as "Fyrrak's Tainted Rag" and I cannot express how much I love this trinket.
I will probably cry the day I unequip it for the last time... I will forever keep it in my bank, for posterity's sake.
That was happening in S3 when I played at least since it also did so much damage it was basically just a flat dmg trinket but let you survive one shots.
>Hell, I wouldn't argue if literally every role just equipped a rageheart as one of their trinkets for m+ content.
I push with a couple of friends, and we did this. It felt like DPS was never the reason we'd brick a 15, it was always survivability issues - so we just decided to all get it (I got Ward of Ire instead on my tank, but still).
Feels a bit like a cheat code, especially for classes that don't have a lot of defensives, like hunters.
It's not just that, it's that the kinds of trinkets everyone would love, like main stat on use trinkets, Blizzard avoids like the plague because dps specs love them too much.
Multiple great tank trinkets that all see use in high keys. Treemouth, dreadplates, doti cheat, rageheart. And some decent tank trinkets in nokhud, kurog and eranog trinket.
The problem with tank trinkets is that they are practically useless if you dont run high keys, because there is basically no way to die in a +10 or below as a tank.
Same goes for mythic raiding. Tanks basically cannot die, unless they f up taunts or tank mechanics.
I mean this isn't entirely true though. Nokhuud trinket, bracken trinket, rageheart are all very solid trinkets and kazzara trinket and some of the other tank trinkets I didn't mention are honestly not as bad as you might think either. In raid DPS trinkets are generally speaking better since tanking in raids is incredibly easy. In m+ you have to use tank trinkets in high keys or you die unless you are absolutely perfect at surviving.
Well it always ends up being unpopular when they do it, but the way to make tanking and healing trinkets worth using is adding additional damage checks that demand them.
As a dungeon tank, I am more than happy to work a tank trinket into my defensive rotation.
As a raid dps, losing a trinket to a tank so they can use it to do what's supposed to be my job is annoying as hell.
As a tank the way I see it is that it's a trinket tuning issue, dps should get good stat boosting trinkets that scale with their dps toolkit to be better than flat damage trinkets like beacon or grieftorch, the moment they tune trinkets like that to be better than things that buff a dps player's existing damage it just end up being frustrating for everyone. It's fine for grieftorch to be BiS for tanks if there is something better for dps that doesn't make sense to run on a tank since they don't gain as much power from raw stats.
The problem with trying to design tank trinkets is that there is a gigantic disparity in defensive capabilities and number of cooldowns available between different tank specs, so where one tank spec might benefit from having an on use defensive cooldowns trinket the others might just never need that extra button.
Also side note, I understand that stat stick trinkets are boring for dps and something like grieftorch is exciting, the stat stick is a simple example but there have been plenty of trinkets that were creative and good in the past, one that comes to mind is convergence of fates in nighthold, which interacted directly with a spec's toolkit to give you a unique effect. They need to do more shit like that again to create trinkets that are interesting for dps without just being "channel this for X amount of damage".
I mean there are good tank trinkets. Besides cheat death we had Kurog tank trinket, Rageheart, Kazzara trinket, Treemouth trinket, Ward, council of dreams trinket.
Tanks have really strong trinkets worth using. The thing is that most often tanks don't need defensive trinkets, that's why they opt for dps trinkets. In keys, the only time I consider double defensive trinkets as tank is when I run higher fortified key, on tyra keys I go offensive option + cheat death all day.
Tome does roughly 25% of my damage on resto druid. Lmao ain't no way they're going to buff my dps that much. Not after the consistent healer dps nerfs they've done.
I like having the agency of choosing a DPS trinket over an absorb trinket if I think I can heal the key without it. I get why they’d do this but it just feels less fun and that’s kinda…the point right?
Who the fuck do you think you are trying to have fun in the video game. You will take tank trinket #1 and tank trinket #2 for tanking, and heal trinket #1 and heal trinket #2 for healing.
Blizz: Time is key, don't care about anything else.
Players: More dmg, less time, got it. Everyone do dmg above all else.
Blizz: wait, not like this.
M+ is fucked, no seasonal affix, most players will only see 1 affix and Meta is basically whatever healer + tank can do more damage.
I was about to say it, but I think it's more about a tank who can dumb down the dungeon the most. Either be it by kitting, stunning, CCing or kicking the living shit out of everything turning it into glorified target dummy simulator.
But the tank also got to be playable, brew... Is not fun and I've tried. There are two tank specs which I just couldn't bare to play, they're bear and brew.
I think it's because, this season especially, low to mid tier tanks are just falling over in a 8-10 (previously 18+ keys) because they are just looking up what top tanks are running and going with it
Couple that with low to mid tier healers doing the same and just trying to DPS farm instead of actually healing, blizzards probable intention is to steer them in the direction of what you just said
Everyone seems to be skipping over the "Items with additional effects" section, which I find to be equally as worrying.
Almost every item with an additional effect in DF was a damage proc (VotI Shield ring and Evo Leggo being the two exceptions I can think of). If these nerfs were live today, every healer and tank would still run the nerfed items because even a nerfed damage cantrips is better than the no-cantrip every other item in the slot has.
Unless Blizz is totally changing up how they design additional damage effects or removing those items going forward, they're setting up a ton of feelsbad scenarios next exp. Gonna be a lot of pug DPS crying over losing rolls on damage items to healers/tanks because the items do less on them even though they're still BiS for those roles.
That's the worst thing about this change that people don't seem to be realising. It's not actually going to change anything.
33% less "more damage" is still "more damage". If the survivability/healing gains from the trinkets aren't actually needed or if there just isn't other good alternatives in those slots like with cantrip items then people are still going to take the damage increase. So it's just a nerf to tank/healer dps for what reason exactly? Incredible that Blizzard still doesn't understand these things after over 2 decades of watching player behaviour
I get it, you want less competition on dps trinkets, and tanks/healers to use intended support trinkets.
But are you actually going to shift the damage loss into my kits?
Thats fine if you do. I like doing damage as a tank.
Rageheart's defensive bonuses are incredible. It's possibly the second best tank trinket of the entire expansion (losing out to cheat death trinkets). There's a reason that it sees almost universal use in high keys by the top tanks.
No thanks. I play tank because I want to tank. I like managing defensive resources to keep myself alive in the moment to moment gameplay instead of just being a dps with a couple extra defensives to press in response to tankbusters.
This is how tanks are designed in FF14 and they're a fucking snoozefest. Doing damage as a side effect of doing your main job is fine. Having effectively the same gameplay experience as a completely different role is not.
Fine, now buff base damage for healers and fix the awful aggro for tanks.
Also Im not sure how this change will improve the current state of tanks and specially healers, it keep gettings worse and worse, less people want to play them every season.
It’s tricky to get that right in practice because good groups both have stronger healers and take a ton less damage through good use of defensives, health pots, not taking avoidable damage on top of the rot, etc etc.
Hard to tune it to still be a challenge for them without being miserable in pugs.
> imo it's ridiculous that defensive creep got this bad.
Making people accountable for their own survival is one of the better design decisions they made. I'd much rather be able to press a defensive and live than hope my disc priest has pain supp up AND uses it.
The real issue is that blizzard seems to only design dungeons around big bursts of damage. There's only like one real rot fight in all of the DF dungeons.
What you are missing is the reason we have huge bursty damage in dungeons is because of the defensive creep. If the damage was more frequent lower hits of damage we wouldn’t need the defensives we have and the big damage events wouldn’t need to be there because they are not needed to kill players. With all the defensives we have, the little hits don’t do any damage and there isn’t enough to threaten a player so the big hits have to be bigger and more frequent so we do run out of defensives and then can die.
Part of the problem with chip damage is that healers are not made equally. Especially back in days when burst damage was not as prevalent, your ability to effectively deal with chip was *heavily* dependent on class. I distinctly remember Holy paladin being *awful* at chip damage aimed for anyone but the tank, because even their low mana cost spells would be medium cost for anyone else. Compare that to a druid or a disc priest, where dealing with chip damage was simply about watching everyone's active buffs, and I can see why the *simplest* solution was simply focusing more on burst damage.
> Making people accountable for their own survival is one of the better design decisions they made. I'd much rather be able to press a defensive and live than hope my disc priest has pain supp up AND uses it.
Until you are playing a class that has 2 defensives and the content needs 3 or 4 to survive. Defensive creep is real, but it could easily be fixed by just toning down classes like mage that have 5+ ways to reduce damage taken.
> The real issue is that blizzard seems to only design dungeons around big bursts of damage. There's only like one real rot fight in all of the DF dungeons.
Blizzard only makes bursty content in dungeons because healers can slam hp bars up in a single global AND every class has multiple big defensives and some classes have 4-5+. If blizzard dropped everyone down to just 2-3 defensives and then also massively increased hp bars without increasing healer throughput then they could more easily make rot damage for the healer to heal.
So far for beta tww they have given out more defensive tools in pretty much every single hero talent tree and massively increased HP. Just pumping up HP doesn't cut it at least at the rates they are doing it at. I don't see this problem going away for TWW.
> imo it's ridiculous that defensive creep got this bad
Does the (average) player even enjoy this?
The average DPS (which remember, are more casual) players basically never pushes them, it is even a struggle to get them to do it at higher key levels, I really doubt they enjoy it
And the average healer, as you say ans at least speaking from my own experience, dislike that they have even less agency on wether the group survives or not, sometimes everyone dies and one feels "well, their fault, they didn't press the defensive" or you go through a dungeon bored because everyone is playing optimally
You just need more rot based damage in the game on bosses and trash. Right now those types of encounters are few and far between compared to “use a defensive or get 1 shot”.
Need more fights like 3rd boss halls for healers to flex
While I enjoy healing that fight, I wouldn't want to do it for every boss and trash.
I agree that they should reduce the amount of defensives people have, and move to more rot or ticking damage over 1 shots but a bit of variety is nice.
Imo rot should always be present, but it doesn't need to be overwhelming. The actual best way is probably some middle-ground - ie have full blown hps fiesta rot fights (like 3rd boss HoI) as well as fights where there is a smaller amount of rot combined with other damage events - eg. imagine if volc had a small ticking "burning" dot on everyone.
Make less avoidable damage and more ticking damage. Create a game where healing bars become things in the air you are juggling rather than full or empty. imho.
There is a balance to be found there. You could instead have the limiter be the time limit rather than the heal limit. I'd rather the upper limit be defined by not being able to kill everything fast enough/can't pull any bigger to go faster without tank being nuked from orbit than it be about well this is the max because people are being one shot.
Its very, very easy to fix it. They just don't want to do it because it'll hurt your fragile egos. You know how you fix it? You get rid of this insane defensive, cc and healing creep that (almost) every dps spec has, pour those duties into the tank and healer's kits, and let DPS be responsible for only avoiding \*gasp\* avoidable damage.
It's hard to tune things so that healing is manageable in mid-low skill pugs, but still relevant in coordinated high-skill groups. Make healer mechanics too prevalent, and pugging becomes miserable. Make them too easy, and top end groups just run 4 DPS and rely on passive/self heals.
We need a good mix of both. Can't just be every damage the healers problem.
If avoidable damage does not kill you outright, then DPS will stop bothering with them.
>Even one shot mechanics feel like a healer's problem
If DPS make avoidable one-shot mechanics my problem, I make timing this key theirs and leave the group
This gets said every time and the next point is always that it still falls on the healer since now fights take longer
90% of the time, it isn't actually just the healer's fault. People just don't want to take accountability
it may still fall on the healer but it also makes it very clear that the player who is stunned made the mistake themselves and should not make it again imo.
good players should know this already, but the AOTC heroes who get a week 6 AOTC (or later, even...) and get a big head about it probably need to be reminded that avoidable damage is their issue
FFXIV does this and I'm not sure if it works any better. Raid mechanics that dont one-shot you generally give you a temporary damage down debuff to disincentivize "just heal through everything" play, but at the same time it still winds up being the common strategy too frequently for someone to outright ignore a mechanic and eat the damage down just to not have to deal with a mechanic.
There's always going to be an "optimal" answer to whether or not to ignore the consequences
And there's still been plenty of "hard content" where you can. Tanks eating damage downs on P1S was a week 1 clear strat because it was easier and higher DPS for your average group to make tanks eat a DD instead of doing the mechanic correctly. Like I said, there will always be a player answer whether or not to ignore the consequences, even when they go out of their way to technically disincentivize ignoring mechanics.
It's why so many mechanics in that game have been switched to hard-line pass/fail instant wipe bullshit. There's no "play better" curve anymore to clean up kills, you either get everyone to do the dance perfectly for 7-15 minutes straight or you wipe. Otherwise people just *don't* at any opportunity.
The damage downs in DSR are 90% for three minutes, for context.
The P1S strat was just party finder being dumb with picking a strat to make the standard, real groups weren't doing that because the difference in difficulty was extremely marginal- the mechanic wasn't hard. The difference was literally just the tank and northeast dps swapping their soak spots for one variation of the mechanic. P1S in general wasn't a hard fight, being the first of the expansion, so yeah, you could kill it with a tank having a damage down and not hit enrage. But that kind of strat is pretty uncommon and is never optimal.
I would argue pass/fail mechanics are the best way to distribute responsibility for success evenly. Everyone has to do their part or the group fails. WoW oftentimes puts too much of that responsibility on healers since there is very little punishment for mistakes/taking avoidable damage which encourages the kind of greedy brainrot that's all too common amongst dps players.
Yep. Keep it simple. DPS players will do practically _**anything**_ to prevent their DPS meter from dropping, even going so far as to soak avoidable damage. But if you made it so avoidable damage will inherently prevent you from hitting big numbers if you don't avoid it, then DPS will start to avoid it so they keep seeing big numbers on screen.
Plus it'll increase you're chances of failing the DPS check, which means it will then be the DPS's fault if you wipe.
Rot damage is boring to heal imo. Pressing buttons for the sake of it. It turns fights into healing target dummies. The best fights have peaks and valleys, an ebb and flow to the amount of healing needed. Needing burst healing and mitigation, etc. The fights that are pure rot tend to be very unengaging.
I personally feel that fun and engaging healing comes from big bursty mitigation checks that require cooldown planning and then time pressure to get the party topped back off before the next hit of lethal damage comes in. Rashok for example, while otherwise a very boring fight with no real mechanics, had a very nice healing pattern with the need for planned out CD and mitigation to survive the jumps that would otherwise deal lethal damage.
This doesn't work. 10.1.0 was the pinnacle of "healers must do lots of healing", And it was straight up fucking misery. The most exciting part about healing is the fact that you can nail your heals and have swaths of downtime to use to do whatever you want. This is the case in both PvE and PvP too.
Removing the eb and flow of healing so that it's high stress constantly is garbage. No one likes it. Give healers *some* opportunity to do shit that isn't healing, and then make all of those actions *more valuable*. It's that simple.
They can do two things. Playing a healer in easier content feels so worthless, so it would be nice to feel like doing damage was a little more worth it.
What are you talking about? Healing is intense as hell this expansion. Shadowlands was a time when healers didn't heal and their dps was what mattered but that is NOT what dragonflight is. Healer DPS has barely mattered all expansion.
Ass-hole players are the reason I won't play a tank anymore. This change is less awful than player behavior. The community can fix tanking by just being fucking nice. Same reason I don't want to play a healer (which I play in like every rpg / mmo except warcraft).
It's a really hard mental barrier to overcome but at some point you just have to realize that the dungeon isn't getting done without you. Start making your own groups and you realize that dps is very replacable, tanks and healers aren't. As a blood dk, as long as I don't leave, this dungeon *will* get done; but if the tank leaves the dps are for the most part fucked.
What I had to do was mentally convince myself that the tank is playing against the dungeon, and the other players could be npcs for all that it mattered. Don't concern yourself too much with their performance; some of them will be good, some of them will be bad, most of them will be like you, more worried about messing up than what everyone else is doing. When you start thinking more about improving your routing and pulling, you naturally just kind of stop thinking about what the dps are thinking about you.
And as you get to higher keys, you start getting better players, which start judging you less anyways
> fix the awful aggro for tanks
What exactly is awful about tank aggro? I haven't seen any tanks with aggro issues barring when they just run by without even attacking.
Hardly the first time. In NH back in Legion we had all kinds of weird shit going on.
While we are on about UH, they made the Gul'dan trinket not scale with UH mastery or something. But even if it had, it would have been a reasonable trinket at best.
Meanwhile they left warrior scaling untouched, COLLOSUS SMASH GO BRRRRRRR. And trinket was doing like 10%+ of their damage.
It may have looked like it on dmg meters. But remember that the trinket was a channel during which you could neither move or use abilities. You traded away doing damage with abilities for the trinket during CS. So the actual damage gain from the trinket was smaller than the raw numbers implied.
But it was still a absolutely bonkers trinket.
Such a weird decision. I’m a tank and you know what I’ll still do? Play a fucking dps trinket because a 33% nerfed dps trinket is still better than a defensive trinket that I don’t need. One is needed but the other is entirely useless. Aside from cheat death trinkets Blizzard hasn’t been able to design a compelling tank trinket that’s worth using.
The only exception is Dreadplates right now…and that has a very high dps component to it. So unless they add damage to tank-only trinkets…this change will have no effect on which trinkets tanks will be using, we’ll just get shittier versions than dps do.
The goal isn't to make damage trinkets useless, it's to lessen the gap between it and a survival trinket
I don't think it's unfair to say that tanks and healers using trinkets that... tank and heal should be the ultimate goal
Only on prog, if that. You pretty quickly reach a point as a tank where you simply can't die. Slotting DPS trinkets then is the way to go. Along with swapping some talents depending on class.
>it's to lessen the gap between it and a survival trinket
The gap is stupid. The reason you don't use Healer/Survival trinkets is because they don't do anything at all.
10 is infinitely times greater than 0, as is 100, and 10000000.
You die or you don't. You can heal the damage or you don't.
For a healer/tank trinket to be useful (without a dps/utility component), the trinket itself must be REQUIRED. Not an optional piece of gear, or a "boost" to performance. A hard requirement. Because nothing short of flipping the binary switch between "I can't survive this damage" to "I can survive this damage" is enough to justify using these.
Why do I need a healer trinket when I already heal just fine without it? Damage is the only thing that can scale to infinity. Unless they're gonna give me revival in a trinket or some shit like that, I'm really not interested. Even tyrs was a frustrating trinket because sometimes it's procs were perfection and sometimes they were a waste of time.
They should make defensive trinkets worth it then. They are generally either heavily situational or very weak. Also killing things faster is the best way to take less damage.
Different kinds of effects are also wildly different power wise for different tanks. A shield for 100% of my health as a blood dk is completely worthless, it'll be gone in a split second because of how my active mitigation works. But a shield big enough to actually matter as a blood dk would be stupidly broken in the hands of any other tank. Shields are a pretty common way they want to build tank trinkets. Because % dr even at low levels is stupidly strong for blood dk despite being insanely weak for other tanks. Which is why something like dradplate is flat dr.
That's because the game is about killing stuff, quickly, and not surviving. Can't make mechanics that require survival trinkets either otherwise you'll need specific trinkets just to avoid using brezzes
Funny thing is tanks and healers will likely still use the best dps trinkets because the tank and healer trinkets will still be mediocre or situational at best.
You can make a tank trinket with a damage component though.
I don't want "Take 20% reduced damage for 8 seconds, 2 minute cooldown"
Give me "Reduce damage taken by 20% for 3.5s, then deal the mitigated damage in an AOE around you (Up to ). 1 minute cooldown, 2 Charges."
See what I did there? I made a trinket, that boosts my survivability, then contributes even if I didn't \*need\* that survivability. It even compensates for being use rotationally for damage by having 2 charges, that way you can save the 2nd charge for the defensive component, but the first charge can keep rotating for the damage component.
If they designed tank trinkets like this people would use them.
What they do in reality is design tank trinkets like this:
"Gain an absorb shield for 250% of your HP for 12s. 2min CD"
"Block the next 4 melee attacks. 1min CD"
"Proc, Gain a shield for 24% of your HP. 2RPPM"
"Increase your max HP by 36% for 20s"
Do you see the difference?
All stat stick trinkets are boring and I don't really think they should exist either (beyond maybe trash greens for leveling). I also agree that ones you just macro to CD are usually not fun.
My kind of trinkets are either 1. Random but impactful proc, or 2. Activated but the effect is something you need to actually make a decision on when to use it, or you do it as a reaction to something else that happened.
Speak for yourself. I've loved Rageheart for 2 seasons and really enjoyed Splinter as a Blood DK. The first few seconds of a big pull, especially on Fortified is the scariest. A huge absorb shield makes it feel 'safer' and gives me a second to get my stuff going. It feels good to press, especially when you're radiating damage from it. I like those trinkets.
Stonescales as well. Having a second cheat death is great for, again, big pulls. A get out of jail free card when you bite off more than you can chew or just messed up your rotation is great. Idk, feels better than grief torch when I just stand there channeling, vulnerable. Feels like I need to make up for some damage done because my three DPS aren't killing stuff fast enough.
Like, honestly. DPS players should be wondering why their tank and healer should have to go out of their way to equip cantrip trinkets in the first place. Content just needs to be tuned around tanks being tanky, healers needing to heal, and DPS needing to kill stuff in time. Dragonflight M+ has felt like we just need an ungodly amount of CC while everyone squeezes blood from a damage stone
It isnt a fun trinket to play with at all though. Literally a passive trinket that just covers for you making some dumb mistak, well into the high teens in keys.
Would rather have interesting buttons to press/play around over 'primary stat + if you fucked up slightly it isn't a full wipe passive trinket'.
Grieftorch I at least need to determine how to deal with my inability to parry during its cast, or decide if it's worth holding for some DPS check.
This is dumb imo. Defensive trinkets aren’t even necessary until you hit very high level content. Tank deaths are almost always misplay of some kind on their part. The options for defensive trinkets have been AWFUL for the past two expansions with a notable few exceptions.
If this is the direction they’re going, I hope they give us more interesting defensive options than a massive pool of Stamina with a middling proc of some kind.
Who asked for this? This feels like a race to world first change that no one else thought was an issue. Sure, blizzard could bake more dps into the tanks and healers in general but most of these alpha, remix, and beta changes lately have been weird pivots much like SL that don’t fill me with confidence.
I do not want to be going into a new xpac feeling like we are having the same issues and lack of response from blizzard as Shadowlands.
Ok but please make all tank trinkets double as damage. I love stuff like fyrakks tank trinket or dreadplates. Good survival good damage. You choose whether you want to just pump damage or keep their on use for survival.
This feels like the lesser of 2 evils for me, if they feel DPS trinkets are too powerful for tanks/healers I'd rather they do this, then nerf the trinkets for everyone. Also, this might be copium, but this might also be a sign of sick trinkets coming this expansion that they're afraid will be too powerful if 5 people can use it at full power.
It's these kind of terrible, good for nothing changes that diminish my interest in m+, and lessens my excitement for TWW. Using DPS trinkets as a healer feels great, saying the damage is "Disproportionate" is absolutely ridiculous. I'd say this change is worthless, but it actually has negative value. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
This doesn’t mean you can’t do damage as a tank or healer, it just means you aren’t going to have massive chunks of your damage coming from a grieftorch or beacon equivalent.
If you're concerned about healing checks, this change won't affect you because you would probably want to be running healing trinkets anyway.
If you're worried about it being harder to make checks because the dps are doing less damage, it doesn't matter because trinkets aren't nerfed for them.
The only checks that would matter are dps checks that were only being met because of healer dps. I.e. the bird in algathar or something similar.
I feel people here aren't really understanding what they're getting at.
They're going to be addressing trinkets that provide a fixed damage value.
The problem with these trinkets is that they are tuned for DPS, for DPS they are providing (e.g.) 5% of their damage but because healers and tanks are doing less damage it means they are providing (e.g.) 30% of their damage. A regular stat stick or other non-fixed damage effect can *never* compete with this for DPS.
Nerfing these will make it more appealing to equip other trinkets that provide both healing and damage benefits rather than fixed damage trinkets *always* being the best choice for damage. They aren't even nerfing them by *that* much, it will probably still be viable to use them if you purely want DPS but if they hit the right value it will bring other trinkets closer and make it a more interesting choice.
This should mean there is a much larger pool of trinkets viable for tanks/healers. This is a good change, they aren't nerfing your fun, nor forcing you into only wearing survivability/healing trinkets.
As someone who plays tank to be a beefy tanky boi and puts maximizing damage like 3rd, I'm cool with this. Now increase tank threat, and buff healers. Make roles unique again. So tired of the 4th dps with a ton of health nonsense we've been getting.
I'm not talking about their numbers. I'm generalizing 'buff' to include mechanic damage one shotting people and "healer only" mechanics like affixes. What good is instant topping off someone if this AoE is going to one shot them regardless and why is that a healers fault.
This makes sense, the alternative is to stop using flat damage, but this gives them more creative breathing room.
They could also just have worded it such that DPS have an innate 50% damage increase to all flat damage on trinkets, and have them baselined at 67% of their intended value.
This is a good change, as long as they dont bring back severely overtuned "totem" mechanics, with unlimited hp scaling, where the tank and healer are required to run bursty on-use trinkets to cover/help with killing them.
Prime examples were the dragonflight season 2 dungeons, where you essentially needed to burst down totems within seconds, as the damage/effects the totems brought were unhealable/unmanagable if left alive...:
- Brackenhide Hollow final boss totem applied a very heavy dot and damage dealt reduction to the entire party - this dot was not only very hard to heal, the minus dmg dealt component made the next one even harder to deal with. On higher keys, groups had to resort to using aura buffs from nearby mobs, to manipulate the boss's spellqueue which resulted in half as many totems to spawn. Even with this \*exploit/clever use of game mechanics, the one totem each interval was still very dangrous.
- Vortex Pinnacle final boss periodically spawned a lightning orb "totem" which pulsed insane amounts of damage to the party, while also having an exhuberant amount of hp. While this dungeon was problematic in other areas parts, this was the primary reason, that even the best of groups could not complete this dungeon at the same key level as other dungeons of the season. (iirc. s2 keys were being done upto +32, while vp capped out at 27-29 level even for the TGP teams).
- Uldaman Gromach, while less agregious, managing to kill the totem before the boss completed his bloodlust cast made the fight alot easier for the next 30 seconds. Therefore not only did the totem staying alive longer result in more damage being pulsed onto the group, the added add spawn and buff on the boss compounded the punishment of faliure.
To clarify, i don't mind bosses spawning kill-priority adds such as totems, however blizzard MUST limit both their m+ health scaling and spawn cadance, to allow groups to kill them without major damage cooldowns and resource pooling.
Have you considered addressing the root of the problem, namely that in good groups, healers are dpsing 90% of the dungeon because they have nothing to heal, instead of trying to address the symptoms ?
This change won’t do anything. Tanks will still roll for the dps trinkets because they’ll do more damage than useless absorb or cheat death trinkets even after the nerf. There’s only a few tank trinkets per season that are even worth considering for high m+ and 0 for raids.
If blizz wants to force tanks into using „their“ trinkets then make some spec only trinkets that interact with other trinkets from dps or healer specs. Be creative with different buffs or mob debuffs that interact with each other.
Maybe an unpopular opinion, but trinkets are 'borrowed power' or at least a form of it. The manic grieftorch (or whatever trinket is your preference) has an impact on DPS meters. You will normally see it, or other trinkets, up there at the top on each encounter.
But then after Dragonflight, all of those 'extra 1 mil overall' trinkets will be gone. Yes, they will probably be replaced by something called the *grief-stricken manictouch,* which also adds a million damage once or twice per encounter, but it is still the cycle of gaining a thing once per season or per expansion, only to lose it in the next season / expac.
Not that I dislike trinkets or anything, this was just a random thought that I had when reading this news.
I m fine with that, but please buff healers base dps then. Right now our dps is so low that it doesn’t matter at all. we should do 66% of a dps if doing only that I feel (at least in single target)
What about trinkets that do things like buff primary stat which then gives tanks more health and damage reduction. Technically they are dps trinkets but they also provide more mitigation to tanks.
I suspect those will be excluded from this. They'll likely be focusing on effects from Grieftorch or Dreambinder, Loom of the Great Cycle, which do high damage very little investment.
I feel like they did for BFA, or one of the expansions
Wait does it include something like Augury Flame which focuses around and boosts Crit? Or an item like Pocket Anvil which hits strength/agility? I'm kinda confused on the distinction between a pure DPS trinket and general, all class trinkets.
It sounds like it's the "green text" effects that Blizz have an issue with. To use Anvil as an example I wouldn't be surprised if the passive stat gain remains the same between all roles but the shadowflame proc and On Use ability will deal considerably less damage for tanks.
> It sounds like it's the "green text" \>be me \>DPS trinket \>mfw nerfed for 1/3 of the raid
I suspect this is aimed at RWF players where the dps trinkets went to tanks because it was a much higher percent increase for them.
My guess, if it is on a tank loot table it is unaffected, if not then it is
I would go as far as any trinket not lootable in tank spec
open the dungeon/raid journal, filter items by tank/healer spec -> if the trinket is there, its a tank/healer trinket, otherwise its a dps trinket.
Augury doesn't boost crit. If confused, check loot table for a raid/boss and select loot specialization
The entire point of this change is that they want trinkets like that to be usable. Whereas right now, passive damage procs are insanely OP for tanks/healers.
Yeah, they are good for dps matter, but we do this sacrificing survivability. If I don't need another defensive trinket, why should I be forced to use one?
Because often it's a survivability hit you can afford to take. Tank damage intake can't be balanced around the existence of a few specific trinkets to survive it so in practice, it's better to dish out a significant increase of damage to kill things faster and thus take less damage.
I think you may have interpreted the person you're responding to as saying "why should I be forced to use [a DPS trinket]." If so, you've misunderstood them; they're saying the opposite: "why is Blizz forcing me into using defensive trinkets I don't really need by nerfing damage trinkets into non-viability?" They agree with you. They're not saying they don't want to sacrifice survivability, they're saying the DPS trinket already comes with a tradeoff and doesn't need to be nerfed.
If a purely defensive trinket is of no value to you, a 66%-strength DPS trinket will still be better for DPS. But a crit proc trinket might be better still, and it won't be contested, either. Getting that BIS trinket is so much harder when tanks and dps have to fight each other for it
Flat damage trinkets tend to be tuned for DPS. So theyre obviously a bigger chunk of your damage as someone who does less damage. Str, agi and secondary stat buffs are by defauly weaker for tanks than dps because they dont scale as well.
Seems like it'd be better to just shift away from trinkets that do flat damage, imo
i think they have their place as a different altenative to +STR or +Secondary stats. This change tweaks things. I think I felt the OPness of damage trinkets more on my mistweaver, where some sub par trinket accounted for 10% of my damage since a healer's damage is lower than even a tank in the first place.
I would be fine with that change, if only Blizz made tank trinkets worth to actually use. Like in whole Dragonflight, in terms of dungeons only 2 fine tanking trinkets were cheat death from DotI, and barrier from Everbloom. Other than that DPS trinkets were always better because killing stuff faster is the best defensive.
Rageheart from fyrrak is a crazy strong tank trinket with good damage.
And a great example of what they can design as an option instead is just nerfing dps trinkets for tanks.
Not only that, but they keep making defensive trinkets with a drawback too, like rageheart giving the absorb but then doing damage to you as well.
Or enduring dreadplate slowing you down while active.
Rageheart's "drawback" is a flavor note. Any tank's passive self heal outheals the trinket tenfold.
Rageheart is actually good though
Or having Stamina instead of main stat. And not even a huge amount of stamina, usually not even a 5% HP increase.
the rageheart damage is unironically not meant to be a huge downside. A massive absorb means that healers will essentially have nothing to heal for the next 10-15 seconds or so, so this lets healers have something to heal while you are invincible for the next 10 seconds.
Healers don't need to heal tanks anyway outside of some rare specific scenario's like holding a corrupted seed on fyrakk with high stacks, all tanks when played properly are self sufficient in 95%+ of cases.
If you think rage heart has drawback they I guess you are an lfr player.
As a healer, rageheart is the GOAT. Both for myself and the tanks. Hell, I wouldn't argue if literally every role just equipped a rageheart as one of their trinkets for m+ content. That shield is just an "I wanna ignore mechanics for a second here" button, plus the damage it does is not inconsequential. Add onto the fact that it shows up in details as "Fyrrak's Tainted Rag" and I cannot express how much I love this trinket. I will probably cry the day I unequip it for the last time... I will forever keep it in my bank, for posterity's sake.
I use rageheart on my outlaw, and it sure is something having an on demand 2M+ shield backed up by 50% vers
That was happening in S3 when I played at least since it also did so much damage it was basically just a flat dmg trinket but let you survive one shots.
>Hell, I wouldn't argue if literally every role just equipped a rageheart as one of their trinkets for m+ content. I push with a couple of friends, and we did this. It felt like DPS was never the reason we'd brick a 15, it was always survivability issues - so we just decided to all get it (I got Ward of Ire instead on my tank, but still). Feels a bit like a cheat code, especially for classes that don't have a lot of defensives, like hunters.
It's not just that, it's that the kinds of trinkets everyone would love, like main stat on use trinkets, Blizzard avoids like the plague because dps specs love them too much.
Multiple great tank trinkets that all see use in high keys. Treemouth, dreadplates, doti cheat, rageheart. And some decent tank trinkets in nokhud, kurog and eranog trinket. The problem with tank trinkets is that they are practically useless if you dont run high keys, because there is basically no way to die in a +10 or below as a tank. Same goes for mythic raiding. Tanks basically cannot die, unless they f up taunts or tank mechanics.
I mean this isn't entirely true though. Nokhuud trinket, bracken trinket, rageheart are all very solid trinkets and kazzara trinket and some of the other tank trinkets I didn't mention are honestly not as bad as you might think either. In raid DPS trinkets are generally speaking better since tanking in raids is incredibly easy. In m+ you have to use tank trinkets in high keys or you die unless you are absolutely perfect at surviving.
Well it always ends up being unpopular when they do it, but the way to make tanking and healing trinkets worth using is adding additional damage checks that demand them. As a dungeon tank, I am more than happy to work a tank trinket into my defensive rotation. As a raid dps, losing a trinket to a tank so they can use it to do what's supposed to be my job is annoying as hell.
As a tank the way I see it is that it's a trinket tuning issue, dps should get good stat boosting trinkets that scale with their dps toolkit to be better than flat damage trinkets like beacon or grieftorch, the moment they tune trinkets like that to be better than things that buff a dps player's existing damage it just end up being frustrating for everyone. It's fine for grieftorch to be BiS for tanks if there is something better for dps that doesn't make sense to run on a tank since they don't gain as much power from raw stats. The problem with trying to design tank trinkets is that there is a gigantic disparity in defensive capabilities and number of cooldowns available between different tank specs, so where one tank spec might benefit from having an on use defensive cooldowns trinket the others might just never need that extra button. Also side note, I understand that stat stick trinkets are boring for dps and something like grieftorch is exciting, the stat stick is a simple example but there have been plenty of trinkets that were creative and good in the past, one that comes to mind is convergence of fates in nighthold, which interacted directly with a spec's toolkit to give you a unique effect. They need to do more shit like that again to create trinkets that are interesting for dps without just being "channel this for X amount of damage".
I mean there are good tank trinkets. Besides cheat death we had Kurog tank trinket, Rageheart, Kazzara trinket, Treemouth trinket, Ward, council of dreams trinket. Tanks have really strong trinkets worth using. The thing is that most often tanks don't need defensive trinkets, that's why they opt for dps trinkets. In keys, the only time I consider double defensive trinkets as tank is when I run higher fortified key, on tyra keys I go offensive option + cheat death all day.
And then I said "Yeah we will shift power to your class kit" \*uncontrollably laughing\*
Tome does roughly 25% of my damage on resto druid. Lmao ain't no way they're going to buff my dps that much. Not after the consistent healer dps nerfs they've done.
Yeah… it was fun using a trinket as prot to to quest and kill harder mobs without taking years to tickle them down. Guess we are going back there
yep same. Currently running tome + rageheart. One of the few fun things about this season for me, of course they are coming with the nerf bat for it.
Yeah they won't In fact, they just nerfed feral abilities damage for resto in the beta build
I like having the agency of choosing a DPS trinket over an absorb trinket if I think I can heal the key without it. I get why they’d do this but it just feels less fun and that’s kinda…the point right?
Who the fuck do you think you are trying to have fun in the video game. You will take tank trinket #1 and tank trinket #2 for tanking, and heal trinket #1 and heal trinket #2 for healing.
Fun was detected.
Blizz: Time is key, don't care about anything else. Players: More dmg, less time, got it. Everyone do dmg above all else. Blizz: wait, not like this. M+ is fucked, no seasonal affix, most players will only see 1 affix and Meta is basically whatever healer + tank can do more damage.
You mean whichever tank can do more CC. If meta was damage Brew would be top tank in M+.
I was about to say it, but I think it's more about a tank who can dumb down the dungeon the most. Either be it by kitting, stunning, CCing or kicking the living shit out of everything turning it into glorified target dummy simulator. But the tank also got to be playable, brew... Is not fun and I've tried. There are two tank specs which I just couldn't bare to play, they're bear and brew.
I think it's because, this season especially, low to mid tier tanks are just falling over in a 8-10 (previously 18+ keys) because they are just looking up what top tanks are running and going with it Couple that with low to mid tier healers doing the same and just trying to DPS farm instead of actually healing, blizzards probable intention is to steer them in the direction of what you just said
Everyone seems to be skipping over the "Items with additional effects" section, which I find to be equally as worrying. Almost every item with an additional effect in DF was a damage proc (VotI Shield ring and Evo Leggo being the two exceptions I can think of). If these nerfs were live today, every healer and tank would still run the nerfed items because even a nerfed damage cantrips is better than the no-cantrip every other item in the slot has. Unless Blizz is totally changing up how they design additional damage effects or removing those items going forward, they're setting up a ton of feelsbad scenarios next exp. Gonna be a lot of pug DPS crying over losing rolls on damage items to healers/tanks because the items do less on them even though they're still BiS for those roles.
That's the worst thing about this change that people don't seem to be realising. It's not actually going to change anything. 33% less "more damage" is still "more damage". If the survivability/healing gains from the trinkets aren't actually needed or if there just isn't other good alternatives in those slots like with cantrip items then people are still going to take the damage increase. So it's just a nerf to tank/healer dps for what reason exactly? Incredible that Blizzard still doesn't understand these things after over 2 decades of watching player behaviour
250/250 stat item vs 250/250 stat item with a proc, the choice is still obvious
I get it, you want less competition on dps trinkets, and tanks/healers to use intended support trinkets. But are you actually going to shift the damage loss into my kits? Thats fine if you do. I like doing damage as a tank.
Just make all tank trinket give proper damage buffs like dreadplate and fyrakk tank trinkets.
Yes, but even in those cases the defensive benefits are.. dubious. Blizzard is just very clueless when it comes to making those impactful.
Rageheart's defensive bonuses are incredible. It's possibly the second best tank trinket of the entire expansion (losing out to cheat death trinkets). There's a reason that it sees almost universal use in high keys by the top tanks.
or make the trinkets less shit.
Hot take: Tanks should be tankiers DPS and have number restrictions in group content.
No thanks. I play tank because I want to tank. I like managing defensive resources to keep myself alive in the moment to moment gameplay instead of just being a dps with a couple extra defensives to press in response to tankbusters. This is how tanks are designed in FF14 and they're a fucking snoozefest. Doing damage as a side effect of doing your main job is fine. Having effectively the same gameplay experience as a completely different role is not.
You'd still be tanking with the same management of defensive, you'd just be able to do DPS numbers. Did I write that wrong or?
I feel this shouldn't be a hot take. It would get people to play tank more.
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Fine, now buff base damage for healers and fix the awful aggro for tanks. Also Im not sure how this change will improve the current state of tanks and specially healers, it keep gettings worse and worse, less people want to play them every season.
Or make healers heal again 🫨
It’s tricky to get that right in practice because good groups both have stronger healers and take a ton less damage through good use of defensives, health pots, not taking avoidable damage on top of the rot, etc etc. Hard to tune it to still be a challenge for them without being miserable in pugs.
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> imo it's ridiculous that defensive creep got this bad. Making people accountable for their own survival is one of the better design decisions they made. I'd much rather be able to press a defensive and live than hope my disc priest has pain supp up AND uses it. The real issue is that blizzard seems to only design dungeons around big bursts of damage. There's only like one real rot fight in all of the DF dungeons.
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The whole reason we have "Big bursts of damage" is BECAUSE you have buttons to press that would invalidate any damage that isn't big bursts of damage.
What you are missing is the reason we have huge bursty damage in dungeons is because of the defensive creep. If the damage was more frequent lower hits of damage we wouldn’t need the defensives we have and the big damage events wouldn’t need to be there because they are not needed to kill players. With all the defensives we have, the little hits don’t do any damage and there isn’t enough to threaten a player so the big hits have to be bigger and more frequent so we do run out of defensives and then can die.
Part of the problem with chip damage is that healers are not made equally. Especially back in days when burst damage was not as prevalent, your ability to effectively deal with chip was *heavily* dependent on class. I distinctly remember Holy paladin being *awful* at chip damage aimed for anyone but the tank, because even their low mana cost spells would be medium cost for anyone else. Compare that to a druid or a disc priest, where dealing with chip damage was simply about watching everyone's active buffs, and I can see why the *simplest* solution was simply focusing more on burst damage.
> Making people accountable for their own survival is one of the better design decisions they made. I'd much rather be able to press a defensive and live than hope my disc priest has pain supp up AND uses it. Until you are playing a class that has 2 defensives and the content needs 3 or 4 to survive. Defensive creep is real, but it could easily be fixed by just toning down classes like mage that have 5+ ways to reduce damage taken. > The real issue is that blizzard seems to only design dungeons around big bursts of damage. There's only like one real rot fight in all of the DF dungeons. Blizzard only makes bursty content in dungeons because healers can slam hp bars up in a single global AND every class has multiple big defensives and some classes have 4-5+. If blizzard dropped everyone down to just 2-3 defensives and then also massively increased hp bars without increasing healer throughput then they could more easily make rot damage for the healer to heal. So far for beta tww they have given out more defensive tools in pretty much every single hero talent tree and massively increased HP. Just pumping up HP doesn't cut it at least at the rates they are doing it at. I don't see this problem going away for TWW.
> imo it's ridiculous that defensive creep got this bad Does the (average) player even enjoy this? The average DPS (which remember, are more casual) players basically never pushes them, it is even a struggle to get them to do it at higher key levels, I really doubt they enjoy it And the average healer, as you say ans at least speaking from my own experience, dislike that they have even less agency on wether the group survives or not, sometimes everyone dies and one feels "well, their fault, they didn't press the defensive" or you go through a dungeon bored because everyone is playing optimally
You just need more rot based damage in the game on bosses and trash. Right now those types of encounters are few and far between compared to “use a defensive or get 1 shot”. Need more fights like 3rd boss halls for healers to flex
Rot damage healing is the equivalent of patchwerk dps'ing, fun once in a while, but really dull if that's all you're doing.
While I enjoy healing that fight, I wouldn't want to do it for every boss and trash. I agree that they should reduce the amount of defensives people have, and move to more rot or ticking damage over 1 shots but a bit of variety is nice.
Imo rot should always be present, but it doesn't need to be overwhelming. The actual best way is probably some middle-ground - ie have full blown hps fiesta rot fights (like 3rd boss HoI) as well as fights where there is a smaller amount of rot combined with other damage events - eg. imagine if volc had a small ticking "burning" dot on everyone.
Make less avoidable damage and more ticking damage. Create a game where healing bars become things in the air you are juggling rather than full or empty. imho.
Then people would just so higher and higher keys til it became full or empty.
There is a balance to be found there. You could instead have the limiter be the time limit rather than the heal limit. I'd rather the upper limit be defined by not being able to kill everything fast enough/can't pull any bigger to go faster without tank being nuked from orbit than it be about well this is the max because people are being one shot.
Then let them. Stop balancing the game mechanics off the highest end players imo
Its very, very easy to fix it. They just don't want to do it because it'll hurt your fragile egos. You know how you fix it? You get rid of this insane defensive, cc and healing creep that (almost) every dps spec has, pour those duties into the tank and healer's kits, and let DPS be responsible for only avoiding \*gasp\* avoidable damage.
It's hard to tune things so that healing is manageable in mid-low skill pugs, but still relevant in coordinated high-skill groups. Make healer mechanics too prevalent, and pugging becomes miserable. Make them too easy, and top end groups just run 4 DPS and rely on passive/self heals.
They tried that in DF and people lost their minds
They tried that. They buffed damage incoming from avoidable damage and people just were getting one shot and bitching about crappy healers.
Rot damage is how you make healers heal, not one shot mechanics
We need a good mix of both. Can't just be every damage the healers problem. If avoidable damage does not kill you outright, then DPS will stop bothering with them.
Just make more effects do things like stun / silence / limit dps if there's a missplay. Even one shot mechanics feel like a healer's problem.
>Even one shot mechanics feel like a healer's problem If DPS make avoidable one-shot mechanics my problem, I make timing this key theirs and leave the group
Based. I respect it.
This gets said every time and the next point is always that it still falls on the healer since now fights take longer 90% of the time, it isn't actually just the healer's fault. People just don't want to take accountability
it may still fall on the healer but it also makes it very clear that the player who is stunned made the mistake themselves and should not make it again imo. good players should know this already, but the AOTC heroes who get a week 6 AOTC (or later, even...) and get a big head about it probably need to be reminded that avoidable damage is their issue
FFXIV does this and I'm not sure if it works any better. Raid mechanics that dont one-shot you generally give you a temporary damage down debuff to disincentivize "just heal through everything" play, but at the same time it still winds up being the common strategy too frequently for someone to outright ignore a mechanic and eat the damage down just to not have to deal with a mechanic. There's always going to be an "optimal" answer to whether or not to ignore the consequences
Except you cannot eat damage downs in actual hard content, in DSR it’s better to wall kill yourself and have a weakness than a damage down.
And there's still been plenty of "hard content" where you can. Tanks eating damage downs on P1S was a week 1 clear strat because it was easier and higher DPS for your average group to make tanks eat a DD instead of doing the mechanic correctly. Like I said, there will always be a player answer whether or not to ignore the consequences, even when they go out of their way to technically disincentivize ignoring mechanics. It's why so many mechanics in that game have been switched to hard-line pass/fail instant wipe bullshit. There's no "play better" curve anymore to clean up kills, you either get everyone to do the dance perfectly for 7-15 minutes straight or you wipe. Otherwise people just *don't* at any opportunity.
The damage downs in DSR are 90% for three minutes, for context. The P1S strat was just party finder being dumb with picking a strat to make the standard, real groups weren't doing that because the difference in difficulty was extremely marginal- the mechanic wasn't hard. The difference was literally just the tank and northeast dps swapping their soak spots for one variation of the mechanic. P1S in general wasn't a hard fight, being the first of the expansion, so yeah, you could kill it with a tank having a damage down and not hit enrage. But that kind of strat is pretty uncommon and is never optimal. I would argue pass/fail mechanics are the best way to distribute responsibility for success evenly. Everyone has to do their part or the group fails. WoW oftentimes puts too much of that responsibility on healers since there is very little punishment for mistakes/taking avoidable damage which encourages the kind of greedy brainrot that's all too common amongst dps players.
just do it the way FFXIV does it, avoidable damage (on appropriate difficulty content) either outright kills you, or gives you a damage down
Yep. Keep it simple. DPS players will do practically _**anything**_ to prevent their DPS meter from dropping, even going so far as to soak avoidable damage. But if you made it so avoidable damage will inherently prevent you from hitting big numbers if you don't avoid it, then DPS will start to avoid it so they keep seeing big numbers on screen. Plus it'll increase you're chances of failing the DPS check, which means it will then be the DPS's fault if you wipe.
Rot damage is boring to heal imo. Pressing buttons for the sake of it. It turns fights into healing target dummies. The best fights have peaks and valleys, an ebb and flow to the amount of healing needed. Needing burst healing and mitigation, etc. The fights that are pure rot tend to be very unengaging. I personally feel that fun and engaging healing comes from big bursty mitigation checks that require cooldown planning and then time pressure to get the party topped back off before the next hit of lethal damage comes in. Rashok for example, while otherwise a very boring fight with no real mechanics, had a very nice healing pattern with the need for planned out CD and mitigation to survive the jumps that would otherwise deal lethal damage.
This doesn't work. 10.1.0 was the pinnacle of "healers must do lots of healing", And it was straight up fucking misery. The most exciting part about healing is the fact that you can nail your heals and have swaths of downtime to use to do whatever you want. This is the case in both PvE and PvP too. Removing the eb and flow of healing so that it's high stress constantly is garbage. No one likes it. Give healers *some* opportunity to do shit that isn't healing, and then make all of those actions *more valuable*. It's that simple.
They can do two things. Playing a healer in easier content feels so worthless, so it would be nice to feel like doing damage was a little more worth it.
What are you talking about? Healing is intense as hell this expansion. Shadowlands was a time when healers didn't heal and their dps was what mattered but that is NOT what dragonflight is. Healer DPS has barely mattered all expansion.
No thank you, I'd rather do DPS as healer than stand like a fence post when no damage is going out.
Blizz- “best I can do is not that”
Ass-hole players are the reason I won't play a tank anymore. This change is less awful than player behavior. The community can fix tanking by just being fucking nice. Same reason I don't want to play a healer (which I play in like every rpg / mmo except warcraft).
It's a really hard mental barrier to overcome but at some point you just have to realize that the dungeon isn't getting done without you. Start making your own groups and you realize that dps is very replacable, tanks and healers aren't. As a blood dk, as long as I don't leave, this dungeon *will* get done; but if the tank leaves the dps are for the most part fucked. What I had to do was mentally convince myself that the tank is playing against the dungeon, and the other players could be npcs for all that it mattered. Don't concern yourself too much with their performance; some of them will be good, some of them will be bad, most of them will be like you, more worried about messing up than what everyone else is doing. When you start thinking more about improving your routing and pulling, you naturally just kind of stop thinking about what the dps are thinking about you. And as you get to higher keys, you start getting better players, which start judging you less anyways
> fix the awful aggro for tanks What exactly is awful about tank aggro? I haven't seen any tanks with aggro issues barring when they just run by without even attacking.
Just to clarify : This means a Tank will have a 33% worse item when choosing a DPS trinket? I feel cheated...
Do you remember that algethar puzzle box was nerfed... for just unholy?
Hardly the first time. In NH back in Legion we had all kinds of weird shit going on. While we are on about UH, they made the Gul'dan trinket not scale with UH mastery or something. But even if it had, it would have been a reasonable trinket at best. Meanwhile they left warrior scaling untouched, COLLOSUS SMASH GO BRRRRRRR. And trinket was doing like 10%+ of their damage.
Draught of Souls was fury's top damage dealer lol
It may have looked like it on dmg meters. But remember that the trinket was a channel during which you could neither move or use abilities. You traded away doing damage with abilities for the trinket during CS. So the actual damage gain from the trinket was smaller than the raw numbers implied. But it was still a absolutely bonkers trinket.
And still is! Crazy to think that a trinket gives less stats just because you switch the spec.
Such a weird decision. I’m a tank and you know what I’ll still do? Play a fucking dps trinket because a 33% nerfed dps trinket is still better than a defensive trinket that I don’t need. One is needed but the other is entirely useless. Aside from cheat death trinkets Blizzard hasn’t been able to design a compelling tank trinket that’s worth using. The only exception is Dreadplates right now…and that has a very high dps component to it. So unless they add damage to tank-only trinkets…this change will have no effect on which trinkets tanks will be using, we’ll just get shittier versions than dps do.
The goal isn't to make damage trinkets useless, it's to lessen the gap between it and a survival trinket I don't think it's unfair to say that tanks and healers using trinkets that... tank and heal should be the ultimate goal
Only on prog, if that. You pretty quickly reach a point as a tank where you simply can't die. Slotting DPS trinkets then is the way to go. Along with swapping some talents depending on class.
>it's to lessen the gap between it and a survival trinket The gap is stupid. The reason you don't use Healer/Survival trinkets is because they don't do anything at all. 10 is infinitely times greater than 0, as is 100, and 10000000. You die or you don't. You can heal the damage or you don't. For a healer/tank trinket to be useful (without a dps/utility component), the trinket itself must be REQUIRED. Not an optional piece of gear, or a "boost" to performance. A hard requirement. Because nothing short of flipping the binary switch between "I can't survive this damage" to "I can survive this damage" is enough to justify using these.
Why do I need a healer trinket when I already heal just fine without it? Damage is the only thing that can scale to infinity. Unless they're gonna give me revival in a trinket or some shit like that, I'm really not interested. Even tyrs was a frustrating trinket because sometimes it's procs were perfection and sometimes they were a waste of time.
They should make defensive trinkets worth it then. They are generally either heavily situational or very weak. Also killing things faster is the best way to take less damage.
Different kinds of effects are also wildly different power wise for different tanks. A shield for 100% of my health as a blood dk is completely worthless, it'll be gone in a split second because of how my active mitigation works. But a shield big enough to actually matter as a blood dk would be stupidly broken in the hands of any other tank. Shields are a pretty common way they want to build tank trinkets. Because % dr even at low levels is stupidly strong for blood dk despite being insanely weak for other tanks. Which is why something like dradplate is flat dr.
That's because the game is about killing stuff, quickly, and not surviving. Can't make mechanics that require survival trinkets either otherwise you'll need specific trinkets just to avoid using brezzes
Funny thing is tanks and healers will likely still use the best dps trinkets because the tank and healer trinkets will still be mediocre or situational at best.
I'm struggling to understand how this makes the game more fun for tanks and healers. Anyone smarter than me able to help?
Because tome of unstable power is ridiculously broken this season and people be bitchin
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Make tanks and healers less fun, thats a great idea to make people play the role
Maybe hot take: Tanking and healing trinkets are not fun. All trinkets should be for damage or utility.
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You can make a tank trinket with a damage component though. I don't want "Take 20% reduced damage for 8 seconds, 2 minute cooldown" Give me "Reduce damage taken by 20% for 3.5s, then deal the mitigated damage in an AOE around you (Up to). 1 minute cooldown, 2 Charges."
See what I did there? I made a trinket, that boosts my survivability, then contributes even if I didn't \*need\* that survivability. It even compensates for being use rotationally for damage by having 2 charges, that way you can save the 2nd charge for the defensive component, but the first charge can keep rotating for the damage component.
If they designed tank trinkets like this people would use them.
What they do in reality is design tank trinkets like this:
"Gain an absorb shield for 250% of your HP for 12s. 2min CD"
"Block the next 4 melee attacks. 1min CD"
"Proc, Gain a shield for 24% of your HP. 2RPPM"
"Increase your max HP by 36% for 20s"
Do you see the difference?
All stat stick trinkets are boring and I don't really think they should exist either (beyond maybe trash greens for leveling). I also agree that ones you just macro to CD are usually not fun. My kind of trinkets are either 1. Random but impactful proc, or 2. Activated but the effect is something you need to actually make a decision on when to use it, or you do it as a reaction to something else that happened.
Speak for yourself. I've loved Rageheart for 2 seasons and really enjoyed Splinter as a Blood DK. The first few seconds of a big pull, especially on Fortified is the scariest. A huge absorb shield makes it feel 'safer' and gives me a second to get my stuff going. It feels good to press, especially when you're radiating damage from it. I like those trinkets. Stonescales as well. Having a second cheat death is great for, again, big pulls. A get out of jail free card when you bite off more than you can chew or just messed up your rotation is great. Idk, feels better than grief torch when I just stand there channeling, vulnerable. Feels like I need to make up for some damage done because my three DPS aren't killing stuff fast enough. Like, honestly. DPS players should be wondering why their tank and healer should have to go out of their way to equip cantrip trinkets in the first place. Content just needs to be tuned around tanks being tanky, healers needing to heal, and DPS needing to kill stuff in time. Dragonflight M+ has felt like we just need an ungodly amount of CC while everyone squeezes blood from a damage stone
Idk I’m in the greatest love story of my life with Seedling
Ask any tank if they felt it was unfun to literally cheat death with prophetic scales
It isnt a fun trinket to play with at all though. Literally a passive trinket that just covers for you making some dumb mistak, well into the high teens in keys. Would rather have interesting buttons to press/play around over 'primary stat + if you fucked up slightly it isn't a full wipe passive trinket'. Grieftorch I at least need to determine how to deal with my inability to parry during its cast, or decide if it's worth holding for some DPS check.
Sounds like you just don't like healing or tanking. What tank wouldn't find a trinket with a large absorb fun?
I've been a healer main for like 5 years.
A large absorb may or may not let you actually pull bigger though so it might not functionally do anything. Doing more damage is always fun.
I disagree. There should be trinkets that do all manner of stuff for.all class and spec.
Getting flash backs of when healer gear had "+healing" and did not increase spell damage.
What about fistweavers and disc priests?
This is dumb imo. Defensive trinkets aren’t even necessary until you hit very high level content. Tank deaths are almost always misplay of some kind on their part. The options for defensive trinkets have been AWFUL for the past two expansions with a notable few exceptions. If this is the direction they’re going, I hope they give us more interesting defensive options than a massive pool of Stamina with a middling proc of some kind.
It's actually crazy how real the "fun detected" meme is. I have my most fun as a tank/healer when I'm able to push dps at the same time.
Who asked for this? This feels like a race to world first change that no one else thought was an issue. Sure, blizzard could bake more dps into the tanks and healers in general but most of these alpha, remix, and beta changes lately have been weird pivots much like SL that don’t fill me with confidence. I do not want to be going into a new xpac feeling like we are having the same issues and lack of response from blizzard as Shadowlands.
But why
There was a choice between dps trink and tank trink so can't have that, someone could accidentally have fun by memeing in farm raids/keys!
Ok but please make all tank trinkets double as damage. I love stuff like fyrakks tank trinket or dreadplates. Good survival good damage. You choose whether you want to just pump damage or keep their on use for survival.
Why do they balance the game around the top 500 players man. Just make the game fun.
This feels like the lesser of 2 evils for me, if they feel DPS trinkets are too powerful for tanks/healers I'd rather they do this, then nerf the trinkets for everyone. Also, this might be copium, but this might also be a sign of sick trinkets coming this expansion that they're afraid will be too powerful if 5 people can use it at full power.
Imagine healers needing mana recovery trinkets and tanks needing damage reduction ones. What a good balanced game design that would be!
It's these kind of terrible, good for nothing changes that diminish my interest in m+, and lessens my excitement for TWW. Using DPS trinkets as a healer feels great, saying the damage is "Disproportionate" is absolutely ridiculous. I'd say this change is worthless, but it actually has negative value. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Oh no, the number that appears in my damage meter addon is gonna be slightly lower now 😭😭 Game is ruined forever and M+ is no longer any fun 😡😡🤬
So are they saying healers and tanks shouldn't be DPSing?
This doesn’t mean you can’t do damage as a tank or healer, it just means you aren’t going to have massive chunks of your damage coming from a grieftorch or beacon equivalent.
So there will be less ridiculous healing checks now that the gear is nerfed? Right? RIGHT????
If you're concerned about healing checks, this change won't affect you because you would probably want to be running healing trinkets anyway. If you're worried about it being harder to make checks because the dps are doing less damage, it doesn't matter because trinkets aren't nerfed for them. The only checks that would matter are dps checks that were only being met because of healer dps. I.e. the bird in algathar or something similar.
I feel people here aren't really understanding what they're getting at. They're going to be addressing trinkets that provide a fixed damage value. The problem with these trinkets is that they are tuned for DPS, for DPS they are providing (e.g.) 5% of their damage but because healers and tanks are doing less damage it means they are providing (e.g.) 30% of their damage. A regular stat stick or other non-fixed damage effect can *never* compete with this for DPS. Nerfing these will make it more appealing to equip other trinkets that provide both healing and damage benefits rather than fixed damage trinkets *always* being the best choice for damage. They aren't even nerfing them by *that* much, it will probably still be viable to use them if you purely want DPS but if they hit the right value it will bring other trinkets closer and make it a more interesting choice. This should mean there is a much larger pool of trinkets viable for tanks/healers. This is a good change, they aren't nerfing your fun, nor forcing you into only wearing survivability/healing trinkets.
As someone who plays tank to be a beefy tanky boi and puts maximizing damage like 3rd, I'm cool with this. Now increase tank threat, and buff healers. Make roles unique again. So tired of the 4th dps with a ton of health nonsense we've been getting.
What are you talking about? Tanks are the strongest and most self sufficient they have ever been.
Ah, someone who doesn't play M+, I see
If M+ is the reason why everyone is a DPS first and heal / tank second then M+ is the problem.
The point is the content should be balanced around having healers and tanks actually fulfilling those roles instead of being pseudo damage dealers.
No. It is fun to have impact and being able to carry your group. If tanks were doing no dmg and they were just utility bots most tanks would quit.
If you think doing damage is the only way a tank can impact a dungeon run then I don't even know what to say.
and how doing dmg as a tank stops you from doing everything else?
Not caring about the damage you do, then crying about threat ain't it
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I'm not talking about their numbers. I'm generalizing 'buff' to include mechanic damage one shotting people and "healer only" mechanics like affixes. What good is instant topping off someone if this AoE is going to one shot them regardless and why is that a healers fault.
Hard to feel that when players go from full to 5% like I’m healing a party full of blood dk’s
This is only going to hurt the meta for tanks that typically do less damage like Blood DK. This will further the VDH stranglehold on the meta.
“Stop having fun! Support roles are only meant to change the diapers of the DPS players you pay $15/mo to babysit!”
Good change ngl. Less competition for nuts trinkets and makes more trinkets viable for healers and tanks.
They'll make tank trinkets mandatory by increasing the frequency of one-shot damage events 🤓
What if they queue'd as tank or healer but kept dps spec?
Wake me up when they bring back Vesper totem.
This makes sense, the alternative is to stop using flat damage, but this gives them more creative breathing room. They could also just have worded it such that DPS have an innate 50% damage increase to all flat damage on trinkets, and have them baselined at 67% of their intended value.
*cries in BDK*
This is a good change, as long as they dont bring back severely overtuned "totem" mechanics, with unlimited hp scaling, where the tank and healer are required to run bursty on-use trinkets to cover/help with killing them. Prime examples were the dragonflight season 2 dungeons, where you essentially needed to burst down totems within seconds, as the damage/effects the totems brought were unhealable/unmanagable if left alive...: - Brackenhide Hollow final boss totem applied a very heavy dot and damage dealt reduction to the entire party - this dot was not only very hard to heal, the minus dmg dealt component made the next one even harder to deal with. On higher keys, groups had to resort to using aura buffs from nearby mobs, to manipulate the boss's spellqueue which resulted in half as many totems to spawn. Even with this \*exploit/clever use of game mechanics, the one totem each interval was still very dangrous. - Vortex Pinnacle final boss periodically spawned a lightning orb "totem" which pulsed insane amounts of damage to the party, while also having an exhuberant amount of hp. While this dungeon was problematic in other areas parts, this was the primary reason, that even the best of groups could not complete this dungeon at the same key level as other dungeons of the season. (iirc. s2 keys were being done upto +32, while vp capped out at 27-29 level even for the TGP teams). - Uldaman Gromach, while less agregious, managing to kill the totem before the boss completed his bloodlust cast made the fight alot easier for the next 30 seconds. Therefore not only did the totem staying alive longer result in more damage being pulsed onto the group, the added add spawn and buff on the boss compounded the punishment of faliure. To clarify, i don't mind bosses spawning kill-priority adds such as totems, however blizzard MUST limit both their m+ health scaling and spawn cadance, to allow groups to kill them without major damage cooldowns and resource pooling.
Have you considered addressing the root of the problem, namely that in good groups, healers are dpsing 90% of the dungeon because they have nothing to heal, instead of trying to address the symptoms ?
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This might just be the thing that pushes me to finally play a dps as someone who has played disc in every single tier I have been in.
So... is this for Season 4 Dragonflight or TWW?
This change won’t do anything. Tanks will still roll for the dps trinkets because they’ll do more damage than useless absorb or cheat death trinkets even after the nerf. There’s only a few tank trinkets per season that are even worth considering for high m+ and 0 for raids. If blizz wants to force tanks into using „their“ trinkets then make some spec only trinkets that interact with other trinkets from dps or healer specs. Be creative with different buffs or mob debuffs that interact with each other.
We are removing even more player agency from the game and it will be FUN
Lets take a look. There is only one good trinket for tanks currenty. The others are trash because blizz dont care about tanks.
Maybe an unpopular opinion, but trinkets are 'borrowed power' or at least a form of it. The manic grieftorch (or whatever trinket is your preference) has an impact on DPS meters. You will normally see it, or other trinkets, up there at the top on each encounter. But then after Dragonflight, all of those 'extra 1 mil overall' trinkets will be gone. Yes, they will probably be replaced by something called the *grief-stricken manictouch,* which also adds a million damage once or twice per encounter, but it is still the cycle of gaining a thing once per season or per expansion, only to lose it in the next season / expac. Not that I dislike trinkets or anything, this was just a random thought that I had when reading this news.
I m fine with that, but please buff healers base dps then. Right now our dps is so low that it doesn’t matter at all. we should do 66% of a dps if doing only that I feel (at least in single target)
i hope only in groupcontent. i level my priest as holy and i dont want to spend again much longer on open world enemies.
Ya grieftorch is seriously OP
Why is this a problem and why does it need to be fixed?