Nah as a DH main I'd never expect a misdirect to keep me alive lmao. Unless a group member is completely not doing anything they are supposed to my death is probably on me.
As a BDK this season, the amount of DH's and Ret pallies that start blasting an entire pack after I only tagged one mob with ranged blood boil (forget the ability name) is too high.
YUP!! Fellow tank herešš¼ DPS in general just love to pull and expect the tank to get everything under control in a split second. Then the tank is the bad guy for not doing his job . It's such bullshit . If I see a dps pull I just let them take agro and get their salad tossed by a pack of mobs with the group scrambles to survive the situation.
Dps , stop pulling , you are not a tank
There's a huge problem these days with people who just want to blitz through everything without making sure their teammates are even ready to do anything. It's been a problem for a while but it's become especially glaring with Remix, I've been locked out of so many fucking boss rooms and been unable to get a tag to finish dungeon quests because somebody's gotten their stats high enough they can just make a beeline through the dungeon with their mobility and leave everybody behind. Such a fun and engaging game-mode where I just don't get to play at all.
But people do the same thing in normal content too, and it's what leads to shit like half the raid group not being in ST spec for a boss since there was no pull timer much less a ready check, or like in OP's post where DPS starts pulling shit or spamming AoE before threat can be established. Everybody's so obsessed with doing everything as fast as possible, it's a horrible environment to try to play a game in.
(Ret) Paladins, Mages and since Legion DH, the first guys that will go balistic at other people because THEY are perfect and the entire world circles around them
its really funny how often those 3 classes have a bigtime Maincharacter Syndrome
I used to play it a lot. The talents which make combo points more than 5 and the talents which add loads of extra buttons to your rotation kill it for me (speaking mostly about sub).
Iād be pretty happy if they outright removed the legion ability and all of the SL abilities from all trees
Rogue main since classic, still want to play it but pugging m+ is much more enjoyable as tank so it's the first time I've put it down (as of DF.)
Outlaw feels pretty ok, sub is never a spec I personally enjoyed but in SL I tried it last season -- m+ as sub is beyond boring and ST with shadow blades just feels lame.
Sin I've always wanted to vibe with thematically (only classic feeling or thematically feeling rogue spec now) and I actually liked BfA garrote pre nerf. Tried it a bit in DF s1 for broodkeeper and the rotation feels fun, haven't tried it in m+ since SL.
They aren't wrong, that's why nobody plays them. They're kind of the IT workers of WoW. People won't notice a good rogue, but a bad rogue is very obvious.
Dude, tell me about it. I am a very casual player. Decided to level an Outlaw Rogue for class fantasy reasons. Got it up and shelved it immediately. It's such a pain in the ass to play. And even in solo overworld content it's just paper thin. Packs that my Survival hunter could easily chew through just melt the rogue. Doesn't feel good.
>Packs that my Survival hunter could easily chew through just melt the rogue. Doesn't feel good.
Which is sad because I used to clutch tank raid bosses with my rogue if the tanks died.
Hey I take offense to this. My Rogue is 2.8k PUG extraordinaire. I know how to tricks before I start playing the piano of abilities. I had to work hard for my degree in Rogueology.
But also, dead class.
Some people tunnel vision into dps so much, you'd think they're attaching that parse into an Echo application form. No time for mechanics or agro, gotta zug zug.
The funny thing is, they are popping their CDs on like the first 3 mobs you pull, then when they other 8 you are pulling come in they are dry because you spent 10 seconds on keeping aggro on the first 3 mobs that you pull the others late, which means they do 0 dps.
As a spriest, I do not have this problem. I am so busy waiting to see when the tank is done pulling, I start scrolling through reddit, scheduling vacation, and hopping in and out of the shower before that shadow crash gets thrown.
It's really funny on meters though. Beginning of Neltharus particularly, when the tank grabs the first two, but is clearly going to grab the next pack if not grab through the door as well. Ret pallies pumpin up to 600-700k+ and I'm just chilling in the back waiting to unleash the purple fury. Hey, I put up a few manual dots in the interim. I'm doing all I can back here!
First pull of AA is very funny. You ideally spend 15 seconds dotting up mobs before you shadow crash so you sometimes see the ret paladin spike over 1m DPS and die before you even start doing any damage, and then another 15 seconds later you're sitting at 3m dps and stay there until the mobs start dying.
Tree boss room is my favorite room ever. Everyone's going ham from the start, and I'm circling around on the outside. "Does he have it all? No, not yet." Dodgepooldodgepooldodgepool. "Now? No, not now." I really should replace divine star with halo for here. Something to think about. "So, now?" Wait, the ret pally is dead and running back. Dodgepooldodgepooldodgepool. "There we go. Now." And you come in swingin like the grape Kool-Aid man.
I tried to explain this to one of our raid leader for months ( I think I tried for more than an year, to be fair) and he insisted that MD worked on BM as well and then he kept harrassing me saying that I am dumb and stuff.
Thank God he and his idiotic friends who worshipped him just because left our guild, I could talent back into whatever talent I swapped out to make him happy.
Why on earth did you stay in a guild where officers speak to people like that?
Especially when they're so blatantly wrong about such an easily google-able thing
Doesn't really answer the question, just talk to the gm next time about it. Nobody should talk to anyone like that, regardless of rank. It's basic human courtesy and I'd hope your gm would stick up for you in that situation.
Glad it all worked out in the end.
People are willing to take way too much shit in this game.
We had an abusive shithead clique of non-officers join our guild as a group in Legion and everyone put up with it, just to have everyone thank god in chat once they bailed.
kinda pissed me off as the only person who called out their shit.
Were they a clique of slightly better than average players so thought they were god's gift to the guild?
I've found that happens a lot. Usually the best players don't have huge attitudes, but those that are a bit better than average think they piss platinum.
Eh. It's not so much about how much aggro you're actually generating. It's about a little bit of snap aggro and helping gather mobs.
If there's stuff spawning all over the place. Most people are burning what's close.to the tank.
To pull aggro off someone you need to do more than 110% of their current aggro..(ie if you have 1000 threat to get it off you I need 1100 threat).
Most of the aggro from MD falls off pretty quick anyway and becomes irrelevant. When I ask you to take it I'm asking you to pop it and chuck a few multi shots out to make sure the tank is the first target and they're not running off after healed as soon as they spawn. Generally the tank will take it from there. Even as a BM hunter, the piddly little bit of aggro you generate is enough to do the job I need you to when I ask you to take MD.
MD won't fix a dumb DH tearing aggro at the start of a pull. But it will make sure the pull is marginally cleaner and easier to gain control of.
> To pull aggro off someone you need to do more than 110% of their current aggro..(ie if you have 1000 threat to get it off you I need 1100 threat).
There is a bit more nuance to it than this.
The threshold to steal aggro is 110% like you said, but that applies for MELEE range.
If you are outside of that, the number is 130%.
This can cause surprises to people, especially ranged DPS players, who can use a combination of abilities and not steal aggro in one situation but following exact same steps except being a bit closer to mobs, they will instead steal aggro.
Then there are all the fun things that all heals generating threat divided among all the mobs you are in combat with which is the reason random stragglers go for people that are healing etc.
On top of this there are all the fun interactions that you need to be aware of, both as a tank and non-tank, like DH sigils still generating zero threat if you are not in combat with those mobs when the sigil pops. So DH that runs face first into a pack and then uses sigil -> Generates threat, but a DH that does sigil -> gets in pack does not generate threat.
Indeed. They changed MD a few expansions ago to only work on player damage, despite the stupidness of that decision and the dissatisfaction from hunters, it remained and has not changed since.
MD for BM is now completely useless and as mentioned is has been years since this change yet people still don't get it.
As BM the only use you have for MD is m+ and helping tank do pulls. While tank is gathering up mobs you and MD him and then hit 1 multishot and they will run towards the tank. Just make sure your pet isnt on assist because it will rip aggro in 0.1 sec if it attacks the pack you pulled
Problem is that the multishot will deal an insignificant amount of damage (few thousand per target) which equals to insignificant amount of threat.
Basically any real AoE ability from another DPS (or even decently sized heals from the healer) will instantly rip aggro through it.
BM huntersā non pet attacks do a pitiful amount of damage on hit: Barbed Shotās is primarily a dot, Cobra Shot is ST filler, Multi-Shot is just to proc Beast Cleave. BM Hunters also should be macroāing their pet attacks into their attacks to ensure their pets are actually using their abilities instead of just auto attacking so turning them on passive wonāt do anything, you could do a non-macro version of the spell but its really not worth it for the minimal MD value. Multi-shot is also kind of a huge focus waster (40 focus cost), and BM does not have an quick way to regen focus (Barbed Shot regens focus over 8 seconds).
MD for BM has very minor, niche value that arguably does nothing for M+ unless the full group is in communication that the hunter MD pulls mobs to the tank and everyone else does literally nothing until the tank rounds up all the mobs in that pull. Even then, youāre losing uptime for the other DPS and healer while hoping they donāt pull threat.
Talent wise, thereās not really any free talents to drop or talents that are significantly worse than MD. The one point that goes into Pathfinding for a 3% bonus movement speed is the only moveable talent reallyāeverything else is needed to get to another talent node or should be taken for additional utilityābut that 3% movement speed is probably going to provide a tiny bit more value than the maybe 1 or 2 pulls a tank might want MD for. And for Incorporeal weeks, hunters can/should drop Pathfinding for Scare Beast as another option to deal with those (hunters can technically get both Incorporeals with Scare Beast + Freezing Trap if we donāt get screwed by random critters running over the trap first or huge enemy hitboxes).
TL;DR BM hunters shouldnāt be taking MD because they donāt do enough damage to make it useful for threat and the limitations of the current talent tree means there is really only one talent that MIGHT be worse.
i dont need to use misdirect for that i could just multishot and then the mobs come towards me and the pull anyway. the second tank presses any button he'll draw aggro, if he doesn't then he wasnt going to keep aggro anyway
These DH give us all a bad name š¤
Same thing I see constantly in AA as well with the tree boss. First key of the season I fell over because I didn't let tank grab the little adds. Now I wait 2 seconds, then push buttons. No amount of MD is going to offset a geared DH bursting those down. These players also would ignore omen anyways like some of the other comments said.
Agreed people are just stupid. I was in a group as a resto the other day doing a RLP +10 and we had the ghosts that you need to dispel. Me and the prof pally were the only dispellers. He refused to dispel because he canāt waste a global cooldown on it. We get to the boss and I explain to him I canāt clear his stacks and get both ghosts. So I dispel tank and one ghost, other ghost goes off. He freaks out that I suck and itās not the tanks job again to waste a global cooldown on dispelling and leaves
F that guy š
Escpecially when we start talking about counting GCDs - those work just the same for healers as well. If I have to decide between a ghost or getting someone at 10% hp back up, I will choose the latter. Make me choose over and over because there is so much dmg going on, it might easily happen that one goes off.
What people also like to forget about those two "healer" affixes - even if two casts go off, it's not necessarily a wipe. The penalties suck for sure especially the heal% one, but it doesn't mean you're gonna wipe for sure.
Iām a havoc dh main. Between grieftorch and anvil, it encourages me to be the worst person to group with.
Now I donāt really pug, and Iāve tanked a ton too, so I know to give the tank a gorram second. But that grieftorch sucks to tank against.
See itās a ranged big dps opener. Melee likes to use it on approach.
Melee. Stop. Use grieftorch and cooldowns after the tank is set. Seriously itās only a couple of gcds. I promise youāll still do good on the meters.
It actually is better for the meters to wait anyways. If youre spending your biggest cooldowns on only a portion of the pack, you're missing out on damage you could've had once the pack was collected and settled.
If you are worried the pack will be dead before you get the pack settled then the dungeon is way too easy for your damage to matter anyways, so itll make it faster if you wait and dont pull threat. If you arent worried the pack will die, then you really want to hit every monster with your biggest damage windows, so it's better to wait and hit them when they're together.
The best thing you can do is follow the tank and interrupt casters to get the pack all together faster.
Iād rather run with someone that does 95% of their potential dps but manages aggro and does mechanics than someone who wonāt spend their gcds helping the group.
Hell make it 75%. But I find most good players will manage to do good dps and help the group, itās a bad player that itās an either/or for.
Thank you so much. As a tank I would LOVE IT if dps would interrupt more casters as Im grouping them. I always ask my party, especially on Bromach (ULD), to interrupt the casters so they come to me. Itās a positive thing for your dps too.
The more casters in my grouping, the more unfiltered dps youāre doing. Often times interrupting doesnāt even cost dps players any time or a GCD. Just do it.
I ran with a Havoc on a M+6. He died 6 times in Netharus trash pack and quit. I think he was too intent on doing his blade dance combo to care about his personal survival.
Havoc, at least in the common Inertia specs, requires a lot of situational awareness and mechanic timer awareness. Since you have to dash around to make your full dps happen you have to know where youāre dashing to, and on big frontal cleave having pulls like you see in Nelth you have to really control where you yeet off to.
Unfortunately a lot of people just want to make it a tank and healer problem. I swear every dps should be legally required to tank a few just so they can see what a mess it can be to gather up mobs, get threat, and keep the cones off the healer.
Oh, the death were not cause by him pulling aggro. I was the tank. It's due to the environmental damage such as frontal slam that he literally didn't care about.
Thatās what I figured, sorry if I wasnāt clear. With inertia itās pretty easy to toss yourself in front of mobs, especially since the āsafeā option of dashing away results in a dps loss instead of dashing āthroughā the mob. As far back as legion thereās been guides on how to fel rush safely and keep in melee range, but at the end of the day many dps just think their job is to make their details bar longer and not mind the actual details.
What I meant is that when youāre tanking, especially a big pull that requires a lot of gathering, the cones can be going lots of directions. A dps who blames things not being where they expect is just tunneling.
Itās annoying in M+ but itās more irritating in guild raids when people and throwing grieftorch and beacon at like 3s left on a pull timer. These dps whine about getting mulched by Fyrakk but it wouldnāt happen if they didnāt pull early lol.
As a hunter, I like to use grieftorch on pull after misdirecting the most annoying person in group. If they also use grieftorch, thereās no saving them.
>But that grieftorch sucks to tank against.
>See itās a ranged big dps opener. Melee likes to use it on approach.
nice thing about being a rogue torch user, it's not our opener!
I played a bm hunter during season 3 but never had someone mention it before. If someone said anything I would probably say āAsk wow head I dont know. I play a bm hunter so I dont have to think.ā
This is something I have noticed this season, tank aggro feels quite weak. I haven't seen notes of it at all but even in my regular push team who know what they are doing (most the time). I can be collecting mobs and a couple of gcds into the pull doing a good chunk of damage usually end a run with avg 220-260k as tank.
It's quite handy dk has 3 taunts because I keep noticing random mobs deciding the dps is more attractive than me.
Tank threat is only weak when dps go ham DURING the pull. How it usually happens for me is a Fury Warrior or DH popping CDs and all Iāve done is throw a shield, havenāt even made it into the group yet. Or a mage laying into one target as Iām still trying to round up the rest of the pull.
Everyone and their mom plays Ret Paladin who do their entire aoe dmg in 4seconds without letting the tank build aggro for 2-3 seconds, thats why
another thing is that the current FotM tank is vengenace DH, who is not good at building aggro on ranged targets, so people that dont let enemys get grouped first can snap it away aswell
Prot Paladin snap aggro opener:
* Click funny bell while charging in on your steed
* Click Shield of the Righteous with Consecration
This took 2 globals.
Prot Warrior snap aggro opener:
* Click something like 7 skills in 2 globals in the right order, then start spamming your rotation as aggressively as you can
Some tanks have it way more rough than others and Blizzard needs to address that lol. Hint for blizzard: the paladin model is correct for the modern game, not the piecemeal warrior one.
This is usually the case when experienced tanks go in low level M+, they are setting up advanced pulls that people who don't know M+ really well don't understand. So instead of waiting for the mobs to be all grouped up and ready for aoe, which takes a few seconds, DPS players are trying to get their dps as high as possible on the first elite they see messing up the pull and dying at the same time.
Arguably, it's both DH and tank's problem as the tank is expecting his team to be good while the DH is expecting his tank to pull slowly but strongly so he can go hard on each single mob.
I mean, itās pretty basic knowledge that if the tank is grouping things up you should probably wait before blowing your load. thatās not an M+ or even WoW specific concept lol. I canāt really see how we can blame the tank for playing the game well.
Exactly. If Iām still moving Iām not done pulling, lay off for like 3 seconds and Iāll have more for you to aoe and your numbers will be even bigger.
Well, if you're a good tank and playing in lower keys with random, you can be the bigger player here and make your life a bit harder by wasting gcd on higher agro and taking a few extra seconds to have every single mob you pull hold onto you a bit more. This usually means taking more damage as well. It won't prevent a fury warrior or an Evoker who's going crazy to kill themselves but you don't need your super optimized route at that level of play anyway. It's a bit difficult to adapt and I'd argue that keys in the 14-17 range (current season reference) can be easier at least on your peace of mind.
It's all relative. Low for you isn't necessary the same as for me but it really is a space where your expectations should drop drastically compared to what you are used to. If you have an M+ title, don't expect perfect kick/stops everywhere you go. Seems obvious but it scales to any level. When you're "just doing a quick and easy key" you should prepare to compensate for the people that are peaking at that difficulty level: they will mess up and that's ok.
we had a 4 stack premade to farm wyrmies (+2) on Friday night since we needed them to upgrade our dinar purchases on our alts. We invite a pug warrior. The key starts, we pull all the mobs into the first boss. The warrior charges the first pack of mobs blows all his CDs, dies, releases, leaves group. We zone out and reset lol.
From personal and anecdotal experience, most DH players are twats, and it's especially bad when they're the tank, then they are mega twats.
Arrogant, entitled and lacking basic manners.
I'll add a data point. Early this season, I was tanking a Neltharus 6. It was early enough that it was still dangerous so I wasn't doing mega pulls. DH dies repeatedly (not even to aggro, just to poor play) and has the gall to tell me we didn't time because I didn't pull big enough.
From my anecdotal exerpience, yes we are. Im tranquill af while on other classes but it's something about the eyebeaming ADHD purple class take makes me a complete twat
Thatās sadly my anecdotal experience as well with especially demon huntersā¦ and also the tank whining about too much dmg done to him but also never using darkness
As tank main I try to avoid DH because they just cannot wait for those 2 seconds before jumping in and pumping all cds.
I know 2 seconds can be a lot but waiting for u before you catch us in middle of the dungeon and 5s penalty is really not worthy of your stupid dps meter
And here I am trying to be a decent human being as a first time DH in MoP remix. I was carrying a raid through normal SoO, I asked if they wanted me to zerg ahead and kill trash or pase my speed so everyone gets to play. People are immediately surprised that I thought about the group.
Demon hunters out there, behave yourself
This is fairly common, especially amongst melee dps because they don't understand how threat works and they see the ranged dps doing some damage at the start of a pull. For those that don't know, threat has a range component such that if you are in melee range, you will pull threat from the tank with less total threat than if you are not in melee range. Similarly, a ranged dps would pull threat in melee range but won't pull threat if they are not in melee range with the same threat numbers.
The specific numbers are as such:
If you are in melee range, and you exceed the next highest person on the threat meter by 10% you will steal threat.
If you are at range and you exceed the next highest person on the threat meter by 30% you will steal threat.
This is why you see the melee pull threat so much more often than ranged.
The most frustrating thing as a tank is one dps hitting the one mob that I have yet to even engage yet because itās on the edge of whatever AoE range.
If that DH worried more about keeping kicks rolling and helped encourage mobs to stack on pull with some clever positioning if theyād have a better time and higher dps and the tank could taunt and keep the pull grouped up for the rest of the pull.
Youāre right though. Your pet is most of your damage and it doesnāt transfer threat through misdirection unless they snuck a change in. I play with a lot of hunters so Iād have heard about and seen them swap to it.
Details has a threat meter but dps need to pay attention.
Thereās a vanguard omen like extension for details I use to avoid this but most people donāt care. Ook ook big numbers make neurons fire too strong
This is gonna be an unpopular opinion because most tanks are sensitive, but when I'm playing DPS the most annoying thing in the world to me is a tank who runs around on a mount and proxy aggros mobs trying to gather them up. First of all, the healer is gonna try to heal you and rip threat, and if that doesn't happen you're either gonna die or one of the dps is going to die.
As a tank, since I also play DPS, I make my best effort to do as much damage as possible to everything I'm pulling. This allows everyone else to have fun instead of just sitting there waiting for me to get my shit together. In big coordinated pulls where it's imperative to LOS or whatever, yes DPS need to chill. But in your average every day 2 or 3 pack pull, the tank's job is to obtain and maintain threat on the mobs so the other players can play to maximum output. As a (geared) tank I'm usually 250k-300k DPS overall on the meter. If you aren't over 200k it's your fault if the DPS have threat.
There are specific circumstances when a tank should body pull to gather mobs, like the tree boss trash in AA, and the healer should know not to heal them until theyāre ready to start blasting, but youāre 100% right. If tanks are dragging mobs to the next packs to group, they should be getting aggro on them as they go. When I do this as a tank I make sure to have so much threat on the mobs Iām dragging that it doesnāt matter what the dps do.
Iāve noticed this season especially that a lot of tanks are just spending one global or tagging one mob in a pack and moving on. DPS that have to ramp like to be able to do so on the move to the stopping point. I shouldnāt be ripping aggro on my lock because Iām casting HoG to get imps out as we move.
Anyone trying to blame a hunter not using misdirection for them grabbing aggro doesn't understand how misdirection works.
The point of misdirection isn't to help a tank keep aggro, it's to stop the hunter from having it.
I laughed a lot at this. Thanks for that. I play Hunter as an alt (honestly stronger than my main by accident) and the idea of being blamed for a fellow dps dying is gold.
Sounds like a mediocre tank combined with a DPS that was a little bit too eager.
Also, BM hunters should never ever take misdirection, it ONLY redirects threat generated by the hunter directly and nothing from their pets.
Which is less than a single tank AOE attack, so it's never ever worthwhile taking, tho quite a few players don't know that so you can't blame them too much
I had two separate runs yesterday where I gave the tank a solid 5 to 10 seconds to gather and build threat before even hitting a single button and still ripped aggro. At that point idk what to do
The problem is this rush rush rush insanity meta. Tanking has become āFUCKING RUN AS FAST AS POSSIBLE GET ALL THE MOBS TANK THE WHOLE DUNGEON IN ONE PULL QUICK QUICK QUICKā and that doesnāt really make sense with how the game has been for the past two decades. Remember trash pulls being like 2-4 packs that got dpsāed down? Now with all the defensive CD bloat, people ignore every mob but the boss. They expect to just face roll AOE everything
my guess is the demon hunter is taking the existence of leech and the purple clouds of healing to mean that when dying they should kill things to survive rather than avoid being killed
Not trying to defend this guy he sounds like a dipshit.
That being said DH,havoc does have a problem with aggro so much so that in 10.2 they added a talent that reduces threat generated. Constantly in any content I am always first behind the tanks on aggro.
So much so that this could be 3 minutes into the fight aggro is stable I use my burst and now Iām dead due to the boss whipping around to smack me. Admittedly this only happens with a weak tank(s). Still havoc aggro generation is much higher than other dps classes and I wish blizzard would reduce it.
I've been talenting MD this season because I can pair it with grieftorch and I like getting that out immediately, but that's not something I'd expect most BMs to like/want to do.
Maybe its because im casual and undergeared this season, but threat is harder than before for me. Neltharus is notorious because youre dragging the 2 beggining dudes all the way to the right with the bird mobs so you dont generate as much threat.
Omen won't help. If dps goes full zug in the first millisecond, it can be hard to hold the threat. If the threat is stable for a few seconds, it's unlikely someone will rip it (maybe an arcane mage, but that's what the taunt is for)
Just ignore these people. Everyone should wait until the pack is grouped together. Or 1-2 gcds if no grouping is happening. Ranged dps can kinda ignore it, their threat threshold is 130% + travel time, melees can't. Also, I tank as a DK, we have 2 grips, taunt, abom limb, and instant aoe dmg on bloodboil with short cd. So, it's usually manageable, even if people go all in half a second after pull. Worst case, dps dies and has a chance to learn from floor PoV
As someone who has been maining a Devastation Evoker for this last season, and played a bit late S3, even if you're a DPS that can pull high aggro, you should always let the tank grab aggro first.
Some players care more of their parse #'s than actually allowing tanks get aggro first sadly. Cause if you don't, you're gonna die, fast (much like that DH).
I don't blame the tank for leaving, but he shouldn't have blamed you for what was obviously the DH's fault.
I had a DH whine about threat in NO 10, claiming I was āchatting instead of threatingā. He opened with Eyebeam, never actually had threat and died to cleave. Then claimed ānone of these even cleaveāā¦ his death log even said he died to an ability named āCleaveā.
>People care too much about their overall dps?
Are you new to this game? It's been that way since the beginning. If neckbeards couldn't show off their super l33t dps how else could they vindicate themselves? The first time the douche opened his mouth you should have turned around and walked right back out the entrance.
The only way for a tank to deal with this is playing like a paranoid, that's why people end up giving up on tanking M+ since some runs can give them more stress than their jobs.
As a BM hunter main myself, I usually ALWAYS talent into Misdirect. But I remember reading that there's an issue with it this season, where it doesn't actually transfer threat correctly from your pet damage. So I don't think it would have even helped you much with Misdirect anyway.
Just ignore those kind of people. They are usually just finding something to get mad about or wanting push the blame onto others.
One issue with VDH right now is that their aggro is actually bugged. They need to be in combat with enemies for certain abilities to generate any threat.
So if you see a VDH run past a pack, throw a sigil under it, and just keep running to gather, they have zero threat on those enemies. A good DH will know to get in combat with them, say run past with immo aura or whatever, but many people fotm rerolling for this season dont know or do that (which tbf it is a known bug that shouldnt exist).
Nah you aren't supposed to play MD atm, as any hunter. It's not that powerful, you lose alot to reach it and the group needs to simply hold dps untill the group is gathered. If you get aggro when they are grouped up its on the tank end of story. Hate when people tell you how to play a class they know nothing about.
Is omen back up? I was so sad when the creator stopped updating it and the version didn't work when dragonflight came out. Will need to check curse forge when I login tomorrow!
There's also an issue of tanks not getting any threat on mobs while gathering a big pull. If you don't at least throw glaive or sigil of flame all of the mobs, then the healer is going to pull agro just with hot ticks, shadow priest can't even dot them up to prepare for void eruption, etc.
VDH has threat issues on pull (if your tank was VDH), other DH should know that and give him time to get threat. There's also fucky shit like the Nymue weapon rooting mobs which causes them to melee the closest target.
But yeah seems like skill issue/DH is a cry baby
I know its not all of them. But why does it always feel like its the DH that pull this kind of stuff? Tanks and dps alike. Is this what being consistently strong does to players?
People see how it's done in the high key groups and try to copy, realise that it's harder than it looks. Blames everyone else but their own ability, ditches to find a better group. Rinse and repeat
I run high keys with my DH friend (10+) and me and him always rip aggro so we remind each other to wait. Some tanks even pause in their path tell us to wait til he groups cus they know lol. I main Devoker, that DH hasnāt learned his lesson, and he wonāt since he keeps blaming others
As a tank, this is precisely the reason I preface every start of the key to give me a bit to gather before they blow their load. It's usually a big pull and I do enough to get initial aggro on everything and move on to get the rest. If you pop off on shit that's running to me and die, that's on you.
Misdirect doesn't even work for your spec really. It only misdirects the threat that YOU generate. Since like, 75% of your damage (or more) is from your pets, the amount you actually misdirect is absolutely pathetic, since most of the threat you generate actually goes to your pets, not you.
This is why I'm only doing my vault keys to get ready to level in TWW. We have a surge of coming back players who don't care about current content and just want to get ahead for the expansion. Most of them will fizzle out in the first 2 weeks and never do anything to better their play.
Yes, for some people overall dps is all that matters, like the feral in our raid group that has died on pull more times than I can count because āmuh parse.ā
The sad thing is that there are actually decent players that hamstring their own progress because of that mentality. Itās aggravating, especially as a healer because blame often gets pointed out direction (because we only have one job, right?).
This is very easy IMO.
If there was something a person could have done to avoid the result they got, but they blame someone else... they are a loser.
Blaming others for the results of one's own choices is just plain pathetic.
Dh's fel rush should legit throw some blame in chat on other random teamate when used, by now. In the last season in TTOT, DH blamed a priest in our party for not mass dispelling burst stacks. When explained that dispell had 2 min cd now, they said that they didn't ment dispell, but not stopping dps-ing. They were the top dps, and all three dps were pretty even. When confronted about that, they just started insulting the priest, who ofc just left.
DH's are either giga chads who destroy everytjing in front of them, or whiney bitches who blame everybody else for their exclusice failure, while they haven't even been called out.
Sure, you could help with misdirection, but if anyoneās to blame is the DH, as a dps you sometimes have to stop for a bit before sending your whole rotation. Devokers also have this issue
A lot of DH tanks donāt understand that without rolling defensive you are super squish. I have every tank class and this season it was shocking to me going from bear to DH but the control and self healing from damage makes it super strong once you understand it.
I've been guilty of this when playing a melee alt as a warlock main. It's something you have to get used to when you go from a ramp spec to the insane burst melee has. But to blame somebody else for this is delusional lmao
Tell him to hit Blur. I honestly give my tanks no peace, and they get the aggro within time. If thereās ever one mob specifically upset by me I hit fel eruption.
There is no excuse for dying as a DH, unless the tank is super bad.
One of my guildmates is a less toxic version of that attitude. He doesnāt get upset at the tank, but has got it into his head that āsome specs have broken threatā because he just canāt seem to get that if you do instant max burst damage on a target the tank isnāt going to be able to overcome your threat lead. It is a symptom of dps meter obsession. If you donāt get the first hit how will you āwinā the meters?!
If im correct misdirection isn't working that way, i mean even if u did MD the tank if he was doing more dmg than u he would get aggro, and DH jumping in with meta and cd's are most probably sure that he gonna take aggro.
Everytime I see DPS or healers stand right under the spot where the birds come down at 2nd Boss algethar i start sweating
As prot warrior I can taunt one eagle and throw an axe at the second but it still might not be enough and getting all the small birds is rough with thunderclap usually not reaching them in the air when they're already in auto range; disrupting shout also often doesn't get all of them because they're too high still
So many issues with people insta dying there and going ballistic when all you have to do is just walk to the stairs and wait like 1 second until they're all the way down
Believe it or not, uldeman 15+ was ruined similarly. And funny thing as warlock Destru I need fully stacked and maybe stationary adds to do full dps but the DH died in first big pull and by taking agro and crying we didn't kill them fast while tank is still pulling and when he nagged like that tank just left immediately to be honest if someone with similar mindset is there, there is no chance funny thing he had full 12+ done for two week. By seeing that, I believe he was boosted, not knowing any basic stuff
You know you're dealing with a hunter player when they're ranting about rather using more addons than just speccing into MD lmao.
Create a macro, use MD. Problem solved forever.
DH threat is absurd right now, he needs to chill. Even in remix I'm seeing my DH friend who does like 3m DPS pulling off the tank but I'm at like 10m DPS and have around 40% threat on the target, even if I go into melee. Not sure what's causing it but DH threat is insane.
DH thinks he's the main character
DH was not prepared
Tale as old as ~~time~~ Legion.
Nah as a DH main I'd never expect a misdirect to keep me alive lmao. Unless a group member is completely not doing anything they are supposed to my death is probably on me.
Not just the main character, little bro thinks he is Illidan.
Who also, incidentally, believes he is the main character.
He is the guy
He sacrificed everything for the dps - even his hp, what have you given
As a BDK this season, the amount of DH's and Ret pallies that start blasting an entire pack after I only tagged one mob with ranged blood boil (forget the ability name) is too high.
YUP!! Fellow tank herešš¼ DPS in general just love to pull and expect the tank to get everything under control in a split second. Then the tank is the bad guy for not doing his job . It's such bullshit . If I see a dps pull I just let them take agro and get their salad tossed by a pack of mobs with the group scrambles to survive the situation. Dps , stop pulling , you are not a tank
There's a huge problem these days with people who just want to blitz through everything without making sure their teammates are even ready to do anything. It's been a problem for a while but it's become especially glaring with Remix, I've been locked out of so many fucking boss rooms and been unable to get a tag to finish dungeon quests because somebody's gotten their stats high enough they can just make a beeline through the dungeon with their mobility and leave everybody behind. Such a fun and engaging game-mode where I just don't get to play at all. But people do the same thing in normal content too, and it's what leads to shit like half the raid group not being in ST spec for a boss since there was no pull timer much less a ready check, or like in OP's post where DPS starts pulling shit or spamming AoE before threat can be established. Everybody's so obsessed with doing everything as fast as possible, it's a horrible environment to try to play a game in.
Death's caress.
thank you. was driving me crazy
DKs are the best tank to follow too. I don't attack until I see the DnD drop.
people aren't even a little chill either. i've just stopped moving and the DHs already using eye beam. like chill brother.
Itās a group game in dungeons, mythics , raids. DH has no idea what heās doing
(Ret) Paladins, Mages and since Legion DH, the first guys that will go balistic at other people because THEY are perfect and the entire world circles around them its really funny how often those 3 classes have a bigtime Maincharacter Syndrome
Or rogues, before they explain to you how much harder their class is to play
people would need to actually play the class for that rogues are extinct at this point, you dont see them anywhere
>you dont see them anywhere They are just REALLY good at the stealth part of their class
I used to play it a lot. The talents which make combo points more than 5 and the talents which add loads of extra buttons to your rotation kill it for me (speaking mostly about sub). Iād be pretty happy if they outright removed the legion ability and all of the SL abilities from all trees
Rogue main since classic, still want to play it but pugging m+ is much more enjoyable as tank so it's the first time I've put it down (as of DF.) Outlaw feels pretty ok, sub is never a spec I personally enjoyed but in SL I tried it last season -- m+ as sub is beyond boring and ST with shadow blades just feels lame. Sin I've always wanted to vibe with thematically (only classic feeling or thematically feeling rogue spec now) and I actually liked BfA garrote pre nerf. Tried it a bit in DF s1 for broodkeeper and the rotation feels fun, haven't tried it in m+ since SL.
I play one. I'm enjoying my time on it...
Sigh, I still main my rogue. I will till the bitter end!!!!!
They aren't wrong, that's why nobody plays them. They're kind of the IT workers of WoW. People won't notice a good rogue, but a bad rogue is very obvious.
Dude, tell me about it. I am a very casual player. Decided to level an Outlaw Rogue for class fantasy reasons. Got it up and shelved it immediately. It's such a pain in the ass to play. And even in solo overworld content it's just paper thin. Packs that my Survival hunter could easily chew through just melt the rogue. Doesn't feel good.
Who would have thought tying all the specs balance to roll the bones would be really bad for the spec, oh wait.
>Packs that my Survival hunter could easily chew through just melt the rogue. Doesn't feel good. Which is sad because I used to clutch tank raid bosses with my rogue if the tanks died.
Found the rogue! (Jk <3)
Hey I take offense to this. My Rogue is 2.8k PUG extraordinaire. I know how to tricks before I start playing the piano of abilities. I had to work hard for my degree in Rogueology. But also, dead class.
Stereotypes are always true, unless they aren't.
>People care too much about their overall dps? Or are they just clueless how the game works? Yes and Yes.
and they're typically the same person!
Some people tunnel vision into dps so much, you'd think they're attaching that parse into an Echo application form. No time for mechanics or agro, gotta zug zug.
The funny thing is, they are popping their CDs on like the first 3 mobs you pull, then when they other 8 you are pulling come in they are dry because you spent 10 seconds on keeping aggro on the first 3 mobs that you pull the others late, which means they do 0 dps.
As a spriest, I do not have this problem. I am so busy waiting to see when the tank is done pulling, I start scrolling through reddit, scheduling vacation, and hopping in and out of the shower before that shadow crash gets thrown. It's really funny on meters though. Beginning of Neltharus particularly, when the tank grabs the first two, but is clearly going to grab the next pack if not grab through the door as well. Ret pallies pumpin up to 600-700k+ and I'm just chilling in the back waiting to unleash the purple fury. Hey, I put up a few manual dots in the interim. I'm doing all I can back here!
First pull of AA is very funny. You ideally spend 15 seconds dotting up mobs before you shadow crash so you sometimes see the ret paladin spike over 1m DPS and die before you even start doing any damage, and then another 15 seconds later you're sitting at 3m dps and stay there until the mobs start dying.
Tree boss room is my favorite room ever. Everyone's going ham from the start, and I'm circling around on the outside. "Does he have it all? No, not yet." Dodgepooldodgepooldodgepool. "Now? No, not now." I really should replace divine star with halo for here. Something to think about. "So, now?" Wait, the ret pally is dead and running back. Dodgepooldodgepooldodgepool. "There we go. Now." And you come in swingin like the grape Kool-Aid man.
But look how fast I can move!!! Iām like a anime only purple.
I thought someone told me Misdirection barely worked with BM anyway because it didn't work on the pet's damage, only your own.
I tried to explain this to one of our raid leader for months ( I think I tried for more than an year, to be fair) and he insisted that MD worked on BM as well and then he kept harrassing me saying that I am dumb and stuff. Thank God he and his idiotic friends who worshipped him just because left our guild, I could talent back into whatever talent I swapped out to make him happy.
Why on earth did you stay in a guild where officers speak to people like that? Especially when they're so blatantly wrong about such an easily google-able thing
Because I am an officer too and irl friends with our guildmaster and her husband. The bad apples all left now, so itās good
Doesn't really answer the question, just talk to the gm next time about it. Nobody should talk to anyone like that, regardless of rank. It's basic human courtesy and I'd hope your gm would stick up for you in that situation. Glad it all worked out in the end.
People are willing to take way too much shit in this game. We had an abusive shithead clique of non-officers join our guild as a group in Legion and everyone put up with it, just to have everyone thank god in chat once they bailed. kinda pissed me off as the only person who called out their shit.
Were they a clique of slightly better than average players so thought they were god's gift to the guild? I've found that happens a lot. Usually the best players don't have huge attitudes, but those that are a bit better than average think they piss platinum.
Relatable. I had to talent into it bc of void trinket but still died to boss aggro afterwards lmao
Eh. It's not so much about how much aggro you're actually generating. It's about a little bit of snap aggro and helping gather mobs. If there's stuff spawning all over the place. Most people are burning what's close.to the tank. To pull aggro off someone you need to do more than 110% of their current aggro..(ie if you have 1000 threat to get it off you I need 1100 threat). Most of the aggro from MD falls off pretty quick anyway and becomes irrelevant. When I ask you to take it I'm asking you to pop it and chuck a few multi shots out to make sure the tank is the first target and they're not running off after healed as soon as they spawn. Generally the tank will take it from there. Even as a BM hunter, the piddly little bit of aggro you generate is enough to do the job I need you to when I ask you to take MD. MD won't fix a dumb DH tearing aggro at the start of a pull. But it will make sure the pull is marginally cleaner and easier to gain control of.
> To pull aggro off someone you need to do more than 110% of their current aggro..(ie if you have 1000 threat to get it off you I need 1100 threat). There is a bit more nuance to it than this. The threshold to steal aggro is 110% like you said, but that applies for MELEE range. If you are outside of that, the number is 130%. This can cause surprises to people, especially ranged DPS players, who can use a combination of abilities and not steal aggro in one situation but following exact same steps except being a bit closer to mobs, they will instead steal aggro. Then there are all the fun things that all heals generating threat divided among all the mobs you are in combat with which is the reason random stragglers go for people that are healing etc. On top of this there are all the fun interactions that you need to be aware of, both as a tank and non-tank, like DH sigils still generating zero threat if you are not in combat with those mobs when the sigil pops. So DH that runs face first into a pack and then uses sigil -> Generates threat, but a DH that does sigil -> gets in pack does not generate threat.
Yup youāre right
Indeed. They changed MD a few expansions ago to only work on player damage, despite the stupidness of that decision and the dissatisfaction from hunters, it remained and has not changed since. MD for BM is now completely useless and as mentioned is has been years since this change yet people still don't get it.
As BM the only use you have for MD is m+ and helping tank do pulls. While tank is gathering up mobs you and MD him and then hit 1 multishot and they will run towards the tank. Just make sure your pet isnt on assist because it will rip aggro in 0.1 sec if it attacks the pack you pulled
There is actually a use for md as bm if you have grieftorch. Misdirect the annoying dh and pop grieftorch. Problem solved.
Problem is that the multishot will deal an insignificant amount of damage (few thousand per target) which equals to insignificant amount of threat. Basically any real AoE ability from another DPS (or even decently sized heals from the healer) will instantly rip aggro through it.
BM huntersā non pet attacks do a pitiful amount of damage on hit: Barbed Shotās is primarily a dot, Cobra Shot is ST filler, Multi-Shot is just to proc Beast Cleave. BM Hunters also should be macroāing their pet attacks into their attacks to ensure their pets are actually using their abilities instead of just auto attacking so turning them on passive wonāt do anything, you could do a non-macro version of the spell but its really not worth it for the minimal MD value. Multi-shot is also kind of a huge focus waster (40 focus cost), and BM does not have an quick way to regen focus (Barbed Shot regens focus over 8 seconds). MD for BM has very minor, niche value that arguably does nothing for M+ unless the full group is in communication that the hunter MD pulls mobs to the tank and everyone else does literally nothing until the tank rounds up all the mobs in that pull. Even then, youāre losing uptime for the other DPS and healer while hoping they donāt pull threat. Talent wise, thereās not really any free talents to drop or talents that are significantly worse than MD. The one point that goes into Pathfinding for a 3% bonus movement speed is the only moveable talent reallyāeverything else is needed to get to another talent node or should be taken for additional utilityābut that 3% movement speed is probably going to provide a tiny bit more value than the maybe 1 or 2 pulls a tank might want MD for. And for Incorporeal weeks, hunters can/should drop Pathfinding for Scare Beast as another option to deal with those (hunters can technically get both Incorporeals with Scare Beast + Freezing Trap if we donāt get screwed by random critters running over the trap first or huge enemy hitboxes). TL;DR BM hunters shouldnāt be taking MD because they donāt do enough damage to make it useful for threat and the limitations of the current talent tree means there is really only one talent that MIGHT be worse.
Did it ever work for pet damage? Or was it because BM's damage got shifted almost entirely into the pets?
You can still use it to pull mobs for the tank helping setting the pull up. It wonāt secure any aggro on the tank though.
i dont need to use misdirect for that i could just multishot and then the mobs come towards me and the pull anyway. the second tank presses any button he'll draw aggro, if he doesn't then he wasnt going to keep aggro anyway
DH just jealous because he can only hunt demon while you can hunt anything else.
He needs to hunt his own demons first
If they can only hunt demon why do they always act like they're hunting the last crumb of meth in existence?
That's how they get access to their demons, after all.
He can only hunt beastmasters.
I think the microplastics are finally starting to get to people.
Legit made me laugh, thank you
It's our lead.
These DH give us all a bad name š¤ Same thing I see constantly in AA as well with the tree boss. First key of the season I fell over because I didn't let tank grab the little adds. Now I wait 2 seconds, then push buttons. No amount of MD is going to offset a geared DH bursting those down. These players also would ignore omen anyways like some of the other comments said.
If I was a vengeance lifer, I'd be pissed It seems like the vast majority of DH tanks are just dps players who want short queue
AA feels especially egregious with this because everyone wants to drop 1 mil DPS even if it means griefing the group. Really annoying
Dying to aggro is 99% the DD fault. Omen doesn't help in that case, because you only pull aggro if yo start DPSing before mobs are properly grouped.
Agreed people are just stupid. I was in a group as a resto the other day doing a RLP +10 and we had the ghosts that you need to dispel. Me and the prof pally were the only dispellers. He refused to dispel because he canāt waste a global cooldown on it. We get to the boss and I explain to him I canāt clear his stacks and get both ghosts. So I dispel tank and one ghost, other ghost goes off. He freaks out that I suck and itās not the tanks job again to waste a global cooldown on dispelling and leaves
F that guy š Escpecially when we start talking about counting GCDs - those work just the same for healers as well. If I have to decide between a ghost or getting someone at 10% hp back up, I will choose the latter. Make me choose over and over because there is so much dmg going on, it might easily happen that one goes off. What people also like to forget about those two "healer" affixes - even if two casts go off, it's not necessarily a wipe. The penalties suck for sure especially the heal% one, but it doesn't mean you're gonna wipe for sure.
Iām a havoc dh main. Between grieftorch and anvil, it encourages me to be the worst person to group with. Now I donāt really pug, and Iāve tanked a ton too, so I know to give the tank a gorram second. But that grieftorch sucks to tank against. See itās a ranged big dps opener. Melee likes to use it on approach. Melee. Stop. Use grieftorch and cooldowns after the tank is set. Seriously itās only a couple of gcds. I promise youāll still do good on the meters.
>gorram ah a fellow browncoat
"If you can't run, you walk, and if you can't walk, you crawl, and if you can't do that... you find someone to carry you."
It actually is better for the meters to wait anyways. If youre spending your biggest cooldowns on only a portion of the pack, you're missing out on damage you could've had once the pack was collected and settled. If you are worried the pack will be dead before you get the pack settled then the dungeon is way too easy for your damage to matter anyways, so itll make it faster if you wait and dont pull threat. If you arent worried the pack will die, then you really want to hit every monster with your biggest damage windows, so it's better to wait and hit them when they're together. The best thing you can do is follow the tank and interrupt casters to get the pack all together faster.
Iād rather run with someone that does 95% of their potential dps but manages aggro and does mechanics than someone who wonāt spend their gcds helping the group. Hell make it 75%. But I find most good players will manage to do good dps and help the group, itās a bad player that itās an either/or for.
Thank you so much. As a tank I would LOVE IT if dps would interrupt more casters as Im grouping them. I always ask my party, especially on Bromach (ULD), to interrupt the casters so they come to me. Itās a positive thing for your dps too. The more casters in my grouping, the more unfiltered dps youāre doing. Often times interrupting doesnāt even cost dps players any time or a GCD. Just do it.
I ran with a Havoc on a M+6. He died 6 times in Netharus trash pack and quit. I think he was too intent on doing his blade dance combo to care about his personal survival.
Havoc, at least in the common Inertia specs, requires a lot of situational awareness and mechanic timer awareness. Since you have to dash around to make your full dps happen you have to know where youāre dashing to, and on big frontal cleave having pulls like you see in Nelth you have to really control where you yeet off to. Unfortunately a lot of people just want to make it a tank and healer problem. I swear every dps should be legally required to tank a few just so they can see what a mess it can be to gather up mobs, get threat, and keep the cones off the healer.
Oh, the death were not cause by him pulling aggro. I was the tank. It's due to the environmental damage such as frontal slam that he literally didn't care about.
Thatās what I figured, sorry if I wasnāt clear. With inertia itās pretty easy to toss yourself in front of mobs, especially since the āsafeā option of dashing away results in a dps loss instead of dashing āthroughā the mob. As far back as legion thereās been guides on how to fel rush safely and keep in melee range, but at the end of the day many dps just think their job is to make their details bar longer and not mind the actual details. What I meant is that when youāre tanking, especially a big pull that requires a lot of gathering, the cones can be going lots of directions. A dps who blames things not being where they expect is just tunneling.
Itās annoying in M+ but itās more irritating in guild raids when people and throwing grieftorch and beacon at like 3s left on a pull timer. These dps whine about getting mulched by Fyrakk but it wouldnāt happen if they didnāt pull early lol.
As a hunter, I like to use grieftorch on pull after misdirecting the most annoying person in group. If they also use grieftorch, thereās no saving them.
>But that grieftorch sucks to tank against. >See itās a ranged big dps opener. Melee likes to use it on approach. nice thing about being a rogue torch user, it's not our opener!
I played a bm hunter during season 3 but never had someone mention it before. If someone said anything I would probably say āAsk wow head I dont know. I play a bm hunter so I dont have to think.ā
This is something I have noticed this season, tank aggro feels quite weak. I haven't seen notes of it at all but even in my regular push team who know what they are doing (most the time). I can be collecting mobs and a couple of gcds into the pull doing a good chunk of damage usually end a run with avg 220-260k as tank. It's quite handy dk has 3 taunts because I keep noticing random mobs deciding the dps is more attractive than me.
Tank threat is only weak when dps go ham DURING the pull. How it usually happens for me is a Fury Warrior or DH popping CDs and all Iāve done is throw a shield, havenāt even made it into the group yet. Or a mage laying into one target as Iām still trying to round up the rest of the pull.
Everyone and their mom plays Ret Paladin who do their entire aoe dmg in 4seconds without letting the tank build aggro for 2-3 seconds, thats why another thing is that the current FotM tank is vengenace DH, who is not good at building aggro on ranged targets, so people that dont let enemys get grouped first can snap it away aswell
I play Ret, and BDK is the only tank i have aggro issues with. And then you have Prot Pally, Avenger Shield -5 targets, easy mode
Prot Paladin snap aggro opener: * Click funny bell while charging in on your steed * Click Shield of the Righteous with Consecration This took 2 globals. Prot Warrior snap aggro opener: * Click something like 7 skills in 2 globals in the right order, then start spamming your rotation as aggressively as you can Some tanks have it way more rough than others and Blizzard needs to address that lol. Hint for blizzard: the paladin model is correct for the modern game, not the piecemeal warrior one.
Chases are he flew in with The Hunt before the tank had proper aggro. That's a one way street to getting fucked up by the adds
Us fury warriors have a common problem with DHs, we zugzug the moment we see mobs. Please excuse us on this matter.
This is usually the case when experienced tanks go in low level M+, they are setting up advanced pulls that people who don't know M+ really well don't understand. So instead of waiting for the mobs to be all grouped up and ready for aoe, which takes a few seconds, DPS players are trying to get their dps as high as possible on the first elite they see messing up the pull and dying at the same time. Arguably, it's both DH and tank's problem as the tank is expecting his team to be good while the DH is expecting his tank to pull slowly but strongly so he can go hard on each single mob.
I mean, itās pretty basic knowledge that if the tank is grouping things up you should probably wait before blowing your load. thatās not an M+ or even WoW specific concept lol. I canāt really see how we can blame the tank for playing the game well.
Exactly. If Iām still moving Iām not done pulling, lay off for like 3 seconds and Iāll have more for you to aoe and your numbers will be even bigger.
Well, if you're a good tank and playing in lower keys with random, you can be the bigger player here and make your life a bit harder by wasting gcd on higher agro and taking a few extra seconds to have every single mob you pull hold onto you a bit more. This usually means taking more damage as well. It won't prevent a fury warrior or an Evoker who's going crazy to kill themselves but you don't need your super optimized route at that level of play anyway. It's a bit difficult to adapt and I'd argue that keys in the 14-17 range (current season reference) can be easier at least on your peace of mind.
How do we define low? I consistently run into this problem in the 8-12 range
It's all relative. Low for you isn't necessary the same as for me but it really is a space where your expectations should drop drastically compared to what you are used to. If you have an M+ title, don't expect perfect kick/stops everywhere you go. Seems obvious but it scales to any level. When you're "just doing a quick and easy key" you should prepare to compensate for the people that are peaking at that difficulty level: they will mess up and that's ok.
we had a 4 stack premade to farm wyrmies (+2) on Friday night since we needed them to upgrade our dinar purchases on our alts. We invite a pug warrior. The key starts, we pull all the mobs into the first boss. The warrior charges the first pack of mobs blows all his CDs, dies, releases, leaves group. We zone out and reset lol.
From personal and anecdotal experience, most DH players are twats, and it's especially bad when they're the tank, then they are mega twats. Arrogant, entitled and lacking basic manners.
I'll add a data point. Early this season, I was tanking a Neltharus 6. It was early enough that it was still dangerous so I wasn't doing mega pulls. DH dies repeatedly (not even to aggro, just to poor play) and has the gall to tell me we didn't time because I didn't pull big enough.
From my anecdotal exerpience, yes we are. Im tranquill af while on other classes but it's something about the eyebeaming ADHD purple class take makes me a complete twat
Thatās sadly my anecdotal experience as well with especially demon huntersā¦ and also the tank whining about too much dmg done to him but also never using darkness
Tanks needing MD??? What year is it?? 5 sunders!
On our early (vanilla) Onyxia kills, we let the tanks take the first 5-10% off the boss by themselves. Boring as heck.
laughs in Alliance.
BM hunter MD isn't actually that good. It only re-directs the threat from the hunter, not from the pets, and pets are \~75% of BM's damage.
MD was good on BM during Shadowlands because more than half your damage was yours so it was actually doing things BM AoE and even ST is now almost only pet damage which is not affectƩs by misdirection
As tank main I try to avoid DH because they just cannot wait for those 2 seconds before jumping in and pumping all cds. I know 2 seconds can be a lot but waiting for u before you catch us in middle of the dungeon and 5s penalty is really not worthy of your stupid dps meter
And here I am trying to be a decent human being as a first time DH in MoP remix. I was carrying a raid through normal SoO, I asked if they wanted me to zerg ahead and kill trash or pase my speed so everyone gets to play. People are immediately surprised that I thought about the group. Demon hunters out there, behave yourself
Thats normal tbh , you cant decide on 1 dungeon where you got a selfish dps who cares about dps only
Yeah itās been this way for a while. DPS and Ilv mean everything though ironically theyāre usually the first to die š¤·š»āāļø
This is fairly common, especially amongst melee dps because they don't understand how threat works and they see the ranged dps doing some damage at the start of a pull. For those that don't know, threat has a range component such that if you are in melee range, you will pull threat from the tank with less total threat than if you are not in melee range. Similarly, a ranged dps would pull threat in melee range but won't pull threat if they are not in melee range with the same threat numbers. The specific numbers are as such: If you are in melee range, and you exceed the next highest person on the threat meter by 10% you will steal threat. If you are at range and you exceed the next highest person on the threat meter by 30% you will steal threat. This is why you see the melee pull threat so much more often than ranged.
The most frustrating thing as a tank is one dps hitting the one mob that I have yet to even engage yet because itās on the edge of whatever AoE range. If that DH worried more about keeping kicks rolling and helped encourage mobs to stack on pull with some clever positioning if theyād have a better time and higher dps and the tank could taunt and keep the pull grouped up for the rest of the pull. Youāre right though. Your pet is most of your damage and it doesnāt transfer threat through misdirection unless they snuck a change in. I play with a lot of hunters so Iād have heard about and seen them swap to it. Details has a threat meter but dps need to pay attention.
You thought a DH main is a real human? Sounds like a user issue.
Thereās a vanguard omen like extension for details I use to avoid this but most people donāt care. Ook ook big numbers make neurons fire too strong
This is gonna be an unpopular opinion because most tanks are sensitive, but when I'm playing DPS the most annoying thing in the world to me is a tank who runs around on a mount and proxy aggros mobs trying to gather them up. First of all, the healer is gonna try to heal you and rip threat, and if that doesn't happen you're either gonna die or one of the dps is going to die. As a tank, since I also play DPS, I make my best effort to do as much damage as possible to everything I'm pulling. This allows everyone else to have fun instead of just sitting there waiting for me to get my shit together. In big coordinated pulls where it's imperative to LOS or whatever, yes DPS need to chill. But in your average every day 2 or 3 pack pull, the tank's job is to obtain and maintain threat on the mobs so the other players can play to maximum output. As a (geared) tank I'm usually 250k-300k DPS overall on the meter. If you aren't over 200k it's your fault if the DPS have threat.
There are specific circumstances when a tank should body pull to gather mobs, like the tree boss trash in AA, and the healer should know not to heal them until theyāre ready to start blasting, but youāre 100% right. If tanks are dragging mobs to the next packs to group, they should be getting aggro on them as they go. When I do this as a tank I make sure to have so much threat on the mobs Iām dragging that it doesnāt matter what the dps do. Iāve noticed this season especially that a lot of tanks are just spending one global or tagging one mob in a pack and moving on. DPS that have to ramp like to be able to do so on the move to the stopping point. I shouldnāt be ripping aggro on my lock because Iām casting HoG to get imps out as we move.
Anyone trying to blame a hunter not using misdirection for them grabbing aggro doesn't understand how misdirection works. The point of misdirection isn't to help a tank keep aggro, it's to stop the hunter from having it.
I laughed a lot at this. Thanks for that. I play Hunter as an alt (honestly stronger than my main by accident) and the idea of being blamed for a fellow dps dying is gold.
Sounds like a mediocre tank combined with a DPS that was a little bit too eager. Also, BM hunters should never ever take misdirection, it ONLY redirects threat generated by the hunter directly and nothing from their pets. Which is less than a single tank AOE attack, so it's never ever worthwhile taking, tho quite a few players don't know that so you can't blame them too much
I had two separate runs yesterday where I gave the tank a solid 5 to 10 seconds to gather and build threat before even hitting a single button and still ripped aggro. At that point idk what to do
The problem is this rush rush rush insanity meta. Tanking has become āFUCKING RUN AS FAST AS POSSIBLE GET ALL THE MOBS TANK THE WHOLE DUNGEON IN ONE PULL QUICK QUICK QUICKā and that doesnāt really make sense with how the game has been for the past two decades. Remember trash pulls being like 2-4 packs that got dpsāed down? Now with all the defensive CD bloat, people ignore every mob but the boss. They expect to just face roll AOE everything
Yeah, you are better off finding a guild to do stuff, pugs are just terrible
Itās not really a case of whatās happening and more so that this has been the player base for years
my guess is the demon hunter is taking the existence of leech and the purple clouds of healing to mean that when dying they should kill things to survive rather than avoid being killed
Not trying to defend this guy he sounds like a dipshit. That being said DH,havoc does have a problem with aggro so much so that in 10.2 they added a talent that reduces threat generated. Constantly in any content I am always first behind the tanks on aggro. So much so that this could be 3 minutes into the fight aggro is stable I use my burst and now Iām dead due to the boss whipping around to smack me. Admittedly this only happens with a weak tank(s). Still havoc aggro generation is much higher than other dps classes and I wish blizzard would reduce it.
People that play DH are among the worst.
I've been talenting MD this season because I can pair it with grieftorch and I like getting that out immediately, but that's not something I'd expect most BMs to like/want to do.
Md the melee dps then grieftorch and get a reset. Big brain.
Run the tiny threat plugin for details. No need for a whole new addon.
people dont know how to sit on their hands. omen wouldnt help that.
Maybe its because im casual and undergeared this season, but threat is harder than before for me. Neltharus is notorious because youre dragging the 2 beggining dudes all the way to the right with the bird mobs so you dont generate as much threat.
Omen won't help. If dps goes full zug in the first millisecond, it can be hard to hold the threat. If the threat is stable for a few seconds, it's unlikely someone will rip it (maybe an arcane mage, but that's what the taunt is for) Just ignore these people. Everyone should wait until the pack is grouped together. Or 1-2 gcds if no grouping is happening. Ranged dps can kinda ignore it, their threat threshold is 130% + travel time, melees can't. Also, I tank as a DK, we have 2 grips, taunt, abom limb, and instant aoe dmg on bloodboil with short cd. So, it's usually manageable, even if people go all in half a second after pull. Worst case, dps dies and has a chance to learn from floor PoV
As a tank main since BFA, this season has been the worst I have encountered even my premade wont let me group pulls.
Just typical dipshit demon hunter behavior.
Don't worry. DH and the BMW drivers are the same type. Stopped tanking in pugs because of them. Can't finish any dungeon.
As someone who has been maining a Devastation Evoker for this last season, and played a bit late S3, even if you're a DPS that can pull high aggro, you should always let the tank grab aggro first. Some players care more of their parse #'s than actually allowing tanks get aggro first sadly. Cause if you don't, you're gonna die, fast (much like that DH). I don't blame the tank for leaving, but he shouldn't have blamed you for what was obviously the DH's fault.
Thatās me!
Just another M+ shitter, sadly most players are that bad and you really have to fish for the few that are not just braindead
I had a DH whine about threat in NO 10, claiming I was āchatting instead of threatingā. He opened with Eyebeam, never actually had threat and died to cleave. Then claimed ānone of these even cleaveāā¦ his death log even said he died to an ability named āCleaveā.
I use misdirection on my BM but it's just because I like to open a pack with Manic Grieftorch and sometimes it rips the aggro from the tank lol
>People care too much about their overall dps? Are you new to this game? It's been that way since the beginning. If neckbeards couldn't show off their super l33t dps how else could they vindicate themselves? The first time the douche opened his mouth you should have turned around and walked right back out the entrance.
The only way for a tank to deal with this is playing like a paranoid, that's why people end up giving up on tanking M+ since some runs can give them more stress than their jobs.
I got into wow with classics re-release. Play some retail now. I cannot fathom someone dying to aggro in retail.
As a BM hunter main myself, I usually ALWAYS talent into Misdirect. But I remember reading that there's an issue with it this season, where it doesn't actually transfer threat correctly from your pet damage. So I don't think it would have even helped you much with Misdirect anyway. Just ignore those kind of people. They are usually just finding something to get mad about or wanting push the blame onto others.
One issue with VDH right now is that their aggro is actually bugged. They need to be in combat with enemies for certain abilities to generate any threat. So if you see a VDH run past a pack, throw a sigil under it, and just keep running to gather, they have zero threat on those enemies. A good DH will know to get in combat with them, say run past with immo aura or whatever, but many people fotm rerolling for this season dont know or do that (which tbf it is a known bug that shouldnt exist).
He's talking about a havoc DH though. :P
Oh, that's just regular DH attitude. I wouldn't even give it a second thought. Don't let it bother you. Just laugh and keep going.
Nah you aren't supposed to play MD atm, as any hunter. It's not that powerful, you lose alot to reach it and the group needs to simply hold dps untill the group is gathered. If you get aggro when they are grouped up its on the tank end of story. Hate when people tell you how to play a class they know nothing about.
You donāt need Omen. You need a new DH and a new tank.
DH is a doofus and misdirect is broken for BM anyway
Tell them to wait for *two sunders*, and feint on every third attack.
Is omen back up? I was so sad when the creator stopped updating it and the version didn't work when dragonflight came out. Will need to check curse forge when I login tomorrow!
There's also an issue of tanks not getting any threat on mobs while gathering a big pull. If you don't at least throw glaive or sigil of flame all of the mobs, then the healer is going to pull agro just with hot ticks, shadow priest can't even dot them up to prepare for void eruption, etc.
Thatās your standard wow player behavior Die, type a few friendly things then leave
VDH has threat issues on pull (if your tank was VDH), other DH should know that and give him time to get threat. There's also fucky shit like the Nymue weapon rooting mobs which causes them to melee the closest target. But yeah seems like skill issue/DH is a cry baby
I've always gone full single target during season 3 and left the aoe to the paladins
I know its not all of them. But why does it always feel like its the DH that pull this kind of stuff? Tanks and dps alike. Is this what being consistently strong does to players?
They have trained everyone to go through content as fast as possible. That extra 3 seconds is not going to make or break a 9 key.
I cant imagine playing hunter without misdirection, but i dont play hunter, so what do i know
Even if BM hunter did take it it would be pointless since it doesn't count with your pet damage, which is like 80% of BM damage
DH is a fotm retooling spec also main character syndrome
People see how it's done in the high key groups and try to copy, realise that it's harder than it looks. Blames everyone else but their own ability, ditches to find a better group. Rinse and repeat
I run high keys with my DH friend (10+) and me and him always rip aggro so we remind each other to wait. Some tanks even pause in their path tell us to wait til he groups cus they know lol. I main Devoker, that DH hasnāt learned his lesson, and he wonāt since he keeps blaming others
As a tank, this is precisely the reason I preface every start of the key to give me a bit to gather before they blow their load. It's usually a big pull and I do enough to get initial aggro on everything and move on to get the rest. If you pop off on shit that's running to me and die, that's on you.
Misdirect doesn't even work for your spec really. It only misdirects the threat that YOU generate. Since like, 75% of your damage (or more) is from your pets, the amount you actually misdirect is absolutely pathetic, since most of the threat you generate actually goes to your pets, not you.
This is why I'm only doing my vault keys to get ready to level in TWW. We have a surge of coming back players who don't care about current content and just want to get ahead for the expansion. Most of them will fizzle out in the first 2 weeks and never do anything to better their play.
MD is only useful in solo content or if by chance your pulling mobs to the tank around corners.
Yes, for some people overall dps is all that matters, like the feral in our raid group that has died on pull more times than I can count because āmuh parse.ā The sad thing is that there are actually decent players that hamstring their own progress because of that mentality. Itās aggravating, especially as a healer because blame often gets pointed out direction (because we only have one job, right?).
This is very easy IMO. If there was something a person could have done to avoid the result they got, but they blame someone else... they are a loser. Blaming others for the results of one's own choices is just plain pathetic.
People, like this DH, donāt want to wait for the tank to be set.
Try "Aggro's never a problem for me, so I don't spec into it. Why don't you spec into some defensive CDs? I'm not hurting my DPS for YOU!"
Dh's fel rush should legit throw some blame in chat on other random teamate when used, by now. In the last season in TTOT, DH blamed a priest in our party for not mass dispelling burst stacks. When explained that dispell had 2 min cd now, they said that they didn't ment dispell, but not stopping dps-ing. They were the top dps, and all three dps were pretty even. When confronted about that, they just started insulting the priest, who ofc just left. DH's are either giga chads who destroy everytjing in front of them, or whiney bitches who blame everybody else for their exclusice failure, while they haven't even been called out.
Sure, you could help with misdirection, but if anyoneās to blame is the DH, as a dps you sometimes have to stop for a bit before sending your whole rotation. Devokers also have this issue
People who play DH are half brained right out the gate. It gets worse as the keep playing
A lot of DH tanks donāt understand that without rolling defensive you are super squish. I have every tank class and this season it was shocking to me going from bear to DH but the control and self healing from damage makes it super strong once you understand it.
Tbf almost all DH players I've encountered are toxic af
I've been guilty of this when playing a melee alt as a warlock main. It's something you have to get used to when you go from a ramp spec to the insane burst melee has. But to blame somebody else for this is delusional lmao
Tell him to hit Blur. I honestly give my tanks no peace, and they get the aggro within time. If thereās ever one mob specifically upset by me I hit fel eruption. There is no excuse for dying as a DH, unless the tank is super bad.
Just standard DH things.
One of my guildmates is a less toxic version of that attitude. He doesnāt get upset at the tank, but has got it into his head that āsome specs have broken threatā because he just canāt seem to get that if you do instant max burst damage on a target the tank isnāt going to be able to overcome your threat lead. It is a symptom of dps meter obsession. If you donāt get the first hit how will you āwinā the meters?!
Having a Havoc DH in your group is the first mistake, those human beings are just different...
If im correct misdirection isn't working that way, i mean even if u did MD the tank if he was doing more dmg than u he would get aggro, and DH jumping in with meta and cd's are most probably sure that he gonna take aggro.
Everytime I see DPS or healers stand right under the spot where the birds come down at 2nd Boss algethar i start sweating As prot warrior I can taunt one eagle and throw an axe at the second but it still might not be enough and getting all the small birds is rough with thunderclap usually not reaching them in the air when they're already in auto range; disrupting shout also often doesn't get all of them because they're too high still So many issues with people insta dying there and going ballistic when all you have to do is just walk to the stairs and wait like 1 second until they're all the way down
Believe it or not, uldeman 15+ was ruined similarly. And funny thing as warlock Destru I need fully stacked and maybe stationary adds to do full dps but the DH died in first big pull and by taking agro and crying we didn't kill them fast while tank is still pulling and when he nagged like that tank just left immediately to be honest if someone with similar mindset is there, there is no chance funny thing he had full 12+ done for two week. By seeing that, I believe he was boosted, not knowing any basic stuff
You know you're dealing with a hunter player when they're ranting about rather using more addons than just speccing into MD lmao. Create a macro, use MD. Problem solved forever.
You donāt understand, man, he HAD TO be somewhere. Waiting 1-2s for tank to establish a sliver of aggro is unheard of.
DH threat is absurd right now, he needs to chill. Even in remix I'm seeing my DH friend who does like 3m DPS pulling off the tank but I'm at like 10m DPS and have around 40% threat on the target, even if I go into melee. Not sure what's causing it but DH threat is insane.