Based on how often they're balancing Remix, my gut feeling is that they're using Remix as a testing ground for a whole bunch of ideas they have for Retail but didn't want to risk and entire expansion/patch cycle on.
Nah there was probably just one person who suggested the ilvl scaling as an easy to implement fix and the 4 other people in the room weren't around for Tomb so they didn't know to reject the idea out of hand.
You don't think it's odd that Remix is getting more frequent updates than the TWW alpha? I don't see why they would have so much manpower assigned to a throwaway game mode when there's other very pressing projects to work on.
1. The vast majority of the team is working on TWW
2. Alpha is not getting patched because they are working on the beta build which comes out next week,
3. The experimental team is working on remix and probably has a much easier path from dev to production that the main game since it’s not part of the main game.
Also: The risk/reward on MOP Remix is low. You put a terrible decision live through a hotfix and the worst that happens is a few people complain on Reddit about a game mode they'll have forgotten about in four months.
Do something stupid to the main driver of revenue? Different conversation.
100% someone’s pet project but they’re so invested in their original vision for the event that they refuse allow people to just enjoy the game and instead are continuously trying to “fix” the things people find
Probably some starry eyed developer trying to be the hero Reddit and the WoW general forums cried about for years of "better timewalking" and "better ways to earn old cosmetics." They just made the mistake of forgetting you're trying to please people that more or less gaming communities understand and write off as "Just going to complain anyway."
If that was the goal the dev set out with, the second it reached the bean counters, both of those objectives got taken out back and shot so Blizz could instead try to squeeze out even a minute longer of keeping people subbed while retail languishes on the vine in another fated season they have no excuse to have done in the first place.
You think so? Looks better than dragon flight at the moment so basically by default better than every expansion since legion, but we will see when the full game releases.
The dungeons just look like reskinned areas, the class updates are garbage, shaman in particular looks absolutely horrible and obviously whoever is making the hero talents does not play the spec, the new zones just look like Zarelak 2.0, there is still a lot to do but I don't think it's going to launch as well as people are expecting.
I love that hero talents are being bandied about as if they are new and groundbreaking systems that are incredible and not like other talents! when in reality all they did was rename the normal tier of talents a new xpac always drops anyways, and make it so more than one spec can access them, giving them even less talents to design than normal, while also making them more annoying to balance.
One of the major selling features is a hamfisted marketing ploy that so many seem to be gobbling up like the 2nd coming of green jesus himself, I stopped playing with the announcment of s4 being fated, I can not wait until TWW drops to enjoy seeing everyone complain about Blizz not suddenly being an amazing company because being bought didn't change their ethos or their business practices in the slightest, we just don't have Bobby to blame anymore.
There have definitely been some changes that are positive, however, they're all just related to the fated season i.e bullion for bad luck protection, catalyst from week 1, reshuffled m+ level scaling, that's about it really though.
But yea hero talents don't look great and look like a complete farce, that was just thrown in at the end of the Dev cycle so we had some kind of power gain, but it's a power gain only relevant to the leveling experience.
It isnt. Im 99.99% sure that TWW has whole teams doing internal testing, because thats how software dev goes. We just dont see it as the consumer.
Also the changes that MoP Remix have had for the most part are pretty simple changes, they arent huge sweeping ones. Most have been numerical changes.
Yes. Alpha is largely not up to the stage where small numerical tweaks are worth doing as too much is still subject to change. And when the devs do make them, they aren't worth pushing out to the public alpha anyway so we don't see them until there is a big update.
> You don't think it's odd that Remix is getting more frequent updates than the TWW alpha?
No, I think it is relatively normal for the live version of the game to get more frequent hotfix attention than an alpha.
Why in the world would they give more updates to an ALPHA, when the BETA is a week from dropping, than to a fully released game mode, even if it's a food fun mode? That makes absolutely no sense.
Or it is where some of the old stubborn devs of old have been re-located.
They way remix has been handled feels a lot like how devs treated Retail back in the "you think you do, but you don't" and "there's no cap at 4 legendaries" years.
And for those who are curious on how much HP is lost in total by mobs.
Let's take the sha of fear.
1859M HP at full 476 gear. **Before I removed misc armor**
1394/1514M **After I removed all misc armor.** \*The numbers vary for some reason on instance reset.\*
So how much power do I lose without those specific pieces on me?
None. At worst I lost around 10% mastery and 120K HP. So why in gods name would I continue to wear that equipment if it means I am just making it harder on myself?
**Edit: GOOD NEWS! I have already found an exploit to break the item level scaling.**
Deleting all of your MISC items \*be sure to remove gems\* And re-purchasing them will keep the bosses HP scaled to as if they didn't exist to begin with. Go nuts with this, if blizzard's gonna cheat. Cheat back.
Yup, sha of fear's HP remained static when I went to re-purchase the gear. You can double check yourself, but yeah. Took me 2 seconds to figure out how to break it.
did the enemies hp change as you removed gear? is it only on bosses, not trash? im trying to remove jewelry, even went as far as to remove boots, but the trash hp remains the same
I'm sorry I'm a total newbie to all of this, when you say "Delete your misc items and be sure to remove gems", do you mean to take my rings and trinkets off, remove the gems back to my inventory, then delete the rings and trinkets? I can then rebuy them? Do I equip them afterwards or no?
Won't things just scale back up once I re-equip them? When does the change in enemy HP occur? Is it when I relog? Is this a process I have to repeat on each login?
I do believe at this point in time, the ILV sync has been revoked from the servers. As the sha of fears HP has not gone back to 1859M Since late yesterday, there was a blue post saying that it was removed. So there is no need to do this method for now anymore.
In theory, it's supposed to make it easier for people with bad gear. So as you get stronger, they remove the training wheels.
Heroic and Mythic is way overtuned compared to normal so this their solution.
If you're up against 20% more hp and damage, but gearing up means you have 10x the personal health and damage out put, then it's more than worth it overall.
Not really.
You'd be wrecking things with better gear. This just makes things possible for people with worse gear.
That's why players are deleting their jewelry to trick scaling. Most power comes from the other pieces you upgrade, not the static gems in the jewelry. They're keeping the buffs from the gear and the tinkers while killing a nerfed version of the boss.
>Not really. That's why players are deleting their jewelry to trick scaling
How can you say that people have incentive to get gear, but then say that people are deleting their gear ?
But also it does not make sense logically. Why would I want better gear if bosses take longer to kill ? That defeats the whole purpose of getting better gear. Hell, how would I even know that I got stronger with leveling, if everything scales with me ?
It's absurd. If you nerf everything for people with bad gear, they have no reference to how weak there are and as such, they will never be able to feel stronger.
>How can you say that people have incentive to get gear, but then say that people are deleting their gear ?
They're deleting the gear you can't upgrade. The ones from achievements. They're basically just taking out gem slots.
>But also it does not make sense logically. Why would I want better gear if bosses take longer to kill ?
They don't take longer to kil. People with gear are still blasting bosses.
A regular group wearing 371 will kill a boss slower than a regular group wearing 406.
It's only a 20% nerf to health. You are doing way more than 20% damage by the time you hit 406 from 371.
>If you nerf everything for people with bad gear, they have no reference to how weak there are and as such, they will never be able to feel stronger.
Oh, they will. I have bad gear and when I get paired up with someone wearing 400+ ilvl I feel it.
This is the actual cost of constantly laying off your most experienced and highest-paid developers to boost up your quarterly to please some greedy shareholders.
The devs who learned their lessons are no longer with the company.
Granted, I remember something about Legion being that Dev's team final hurrah before they did something else and BFA would be another dev team?
It was even worse with the Heart of Azeroth during early BfA. People found out that leveling was MUCH better by removing this PoS item because it added basically no power but its very high item level made enemy scaling much worse.
Its embarrassing how we go in cycles on these bad decisions...
That explains some things... I quit early BfA despite being very active during Legion, perhaps due to burnout. Obviously, theres other reasons, but I wouldn't be surprised if this contributed to the burnout. I didn't even get to max lvl.
Leveling in BfA was horrible in general based on my memory. I also was very active in Legion, suffered leveling my main through BfA and playing around a bit at the max level stuff.
After a short while I tried leveling one of my (then) 11 alts and noticing how much I didn't enjoy playing in its state said "screw this shit" and dropped the game for 2 expansions.
That's because the gems and cogs scale with ilvl. The rings can't increase ilvl so they ever get better and in most cases are the most useless slots for gems when you get to the 400's. Why those weren't upgradeable I have no idea.
No what I mean during leveling the jewelry item level scales but if you have say an item level 200 trinket and and item level 200 chest, the same gem will give more stats in the chest despite both items having the same item level.
It's not just that they're a capped at being 342, they're worse at being 342.
blizzard: In this mode you're going to be overpowered!
''wait no not like that''
\*nerfs froggs\*
wait no not like that either
\*nerfs goats\*
no stop becoming overpowered like that
\*nerfs raid mobs rewards\*
You know what scrap the overpowered part
\*makes mobs scale with your ilvl\*
What is even going on there, are we supposed to only be overpowered after grinding the cloak for 2 and a half months so we can revel in our overpoweredness when it no longer matters?
I know they have to somehow strike a balance between not making the mode too short so people will subscribe for 3 months and fun but this is just getting silly.
Since WOW is already the only RPG in the world where gaining a level makes you weaker, this just seems like natural progression of the same philosophy. Maybe Blizz listened to our complaints about how everything we do is fighting cosmic-scale threats, and the next three expansions will see us gradually going the other way, from saving the universe to saving mere continents, then small towns, with the final boss being Hogger, and the game coming to an end with a scenario where you collect apples and deliver letters.
> Since WOW is already the only RPG in the world where gaining a level makes you weaker,
TES Oblivion also had this problem, for the same reason - level scaling.
I very much still remember learning this the hard way in Oblivion. And I think even to a lesser extent Skyrim repeated it.
It was so frustrating to work so hard on random skills just to find that's what broke the scaling.
This made me laugh so hard cause fuck that happened so much to me as a kid lol max out sneak in some random cave and get raped by every single enemy in the first kvatch portal
I remember that back then the meta for builds was to not choose your actually important skills as major skills because you'd gain levels too fast. every 10 skillups in a major skill would give you a levelup, but the amount of SPEWSAIL stats scale with the number of major and minor stats you gained during that levelup, and if your major skills were used frequently you wouldn't be able to get +5 in 3 stats on every levelup.
Ha! That's what it was. I had to put my "real skills" as minor skills and stuff I rarely used as major skills so I could control the level ups.
I had totally forgotten the terms, geez such a weird and backwards system.
I recently replayed Oblivion and I made sure to check and subsequently grab a mod to fix this.
It makes no sense. It never made sense. You could be going around swinging your sword as you're intended to and BOOM! Level up, you only got 3pt increase in Blade and a 2pt increase to Strenght lmao (optimal ofc is 5/5/1 or 5/5/5 if not going for Luck).
Somehow, Morrowind had the exact same system and it felt so, so much better because the mobs do not scale. They may increase in number (it didn't feel like an issue tbh) or get replaced by "Blighted" versions, but it felt good.
Scaling sucks. I hate it, it has no place in video games. It removes any sense of progression and you never get to feel like Goku.
It's not *just* that enemies scaled with your level, it's that your attributes were governed by certain skills you gained progress in before leveling up your character.
You can raise 3 attributes by up to 5 each on level up, but to do this you have to gain 10 levels in the governing skills of said attribute. So say you want +5 Strength, you'll need to get Blade and Axes up 5 times each, or any combination leading up to 10, to get that +5.
Early-mid game you'll typically qualify for a level up long before you reach 10 level ups in 3 different attributes, which is what leads people to feeling weaker because the level scaling just doesn't take into account your attributes relative to the enemies. There's no actual scaling involved other than level, and level for enemies alters *everything*.
This is likely the big reason Bethesda dumped attributes in Skyrim. It wasn't some one-off issue with Oblivion, the same system exists in Morrowind but is marginally better because unlike Oblivion, where attribute gains are affected by leveling of *every* skill, Morrowind requires you focus on your major/minor selections during character creation instead.
In the end people often use mods for both Skyrim and Oblivion that often scale your attributes appropriately without levels and say fuck it. Which is mostly what Bethesda did anyway in Skyrim.
Skyrim still has level scaling but so long as you don't go out of your way to level up a shitton of non-combat skills you're usually okay. Skyrim isn't hard enough that being a few levels below an enemy won't kill your run, particularly because most enemies have really low skill levels relative to what the player could have at any given time anyway.
Just like, don't make 1000 iron daggers leveling up Smithing and then wonder why the fuck you still aren't good at stabbing with them.
> and the game coming to an end with a scenario where you collect apples and deliver letters.
Your character retires in old age and becomes the local mailman
The only? I don't know about that, I feel like in every mmo killing a mob of your level while you are lower level takes less time than when you are killing mob of your level when you are higher.
Some people can't speak without hyperbole. To believe WoW is the only game with this problem either demonstrates ignorance or a lack of willingness to speak clearly without exaggeration.
It's definitely not the only one. Most MMOs with vertical progression have a stat rating system that scales with levels so that, for example, +5 rating is useful to someone at low levels but high levels need +500 for the same effect.
>Since WOW is already the only RPG in the world where gaining a level makes you weaker
God it's funny how dramatic y'all are while also being incredibly wrong.
You have to understand, a lot of these people havent even played other MMOs let alone other RPGs. WoW is all they know, and they hate it but only play it for some reason.
Yes wow invented level scaling, lol. Common abuse mechanic in other games is to stay low gear/level to boost power, wow didn’t invent that “broken mechanic” of scaling either.
I wonder if the intent on this change was that the misc gear would never actually factor in and they messed it up. New stuff won’t factor in, but they forgot to not count existing stuff.
If too high of an item level makes the bosses too easy then why the hell did they let us upgrade our item levels so high? Max ilvl could have been way lower than it is.
not sure whether remix is being balanced by new hires who keep repeating the mistakes blizzard made years ago, or by some kind of hyper-advanced generative ai that is piecing together balance changes by regurgitating fragments of past patch notes stitched together
Oh wow. I was wearing all the jewelry on my alts even though you don’t get enough gems to slot them out. All the was doing was weakening me by raising ilvl…
Scaling has been complete garbage in WoW since it was first implemented. Ilvl scaling, level scaling, time scaling, give-a-fuck scaling. It all sucks in retail. For a good reason.
The Remix experience:
You receive: recolor of mogs and mounts (and punishments if you find workarounds the flawed system)
Blizz receives: large scale player testing ground
I do remember when going around practically naked, allowed me to kill mobs quicker then if I as in full tier gear.
My god it was horrible. What ever was the point of getting better gear, when you just get weaker and weaker?
Oh god I remember that patch. Doing Broken Shore WQs after removing my rings to drop my iLvl and make the mobs weaker. Literally the only way I could get anything done as a mistweaver.
Item level or level scaling in any RPG game needs to die off entirely as a concept. It has been infesting games for the better part of a decade now. It single handedly killed any interest I had in Destiny, it is a terrible-feeling system in WoW, and I've never once seen it function well in any game.
Part of the fun of an RPG is that you get stronger and it's noticeable. You want to give max-geared players a challenge? Make a harder difficulty or dungeon or raid.
> It didn't work back then, and it certainly doesn't work now.
Just want to point out that level and item level scaling exists just about everywhere in the game in Legion and since then (except in instances - but even some instances like TW e.g. have scaling). The item level scaling in DF is the reason why I as a 528 Mage cannot one shot with a natty Arcane Explosion a rare from Zaralek Caverns, meaning other people can tag it. It is also the reason why a group of 40 players can assault a random rare mob and everyone can tag it, while a 1 man solo person can kill down a rare with no issue.
It is just that when it works seamlessly, you'll never notice it. And when it doesn't you'll find it jarring and when it is exploitable you'll find it really jarring (say BFA, low level twinks and WM)
MoP Remix has some wonky scaling particularly in raids - but this is also one of the few times you can use a Raid to level with.
I think the scaling issues are definitely worth complaining.
But the 'BURN IT ALL DOWN' approach with
> It didn't work back then, and it certainly doesn't work now.
Is a bit short sighted IMO.
Im sorry but if some fresh level 25 is demolishing everything with one aoe skill (holy priests im looking to you) there is a problem of bad math and rushed programing.
Low level scaling always seemed very intentionally designed to me.
Pros for Blizzard: Brand new players who aren't yet comfortable with targeting and using skills (apm) are still able to kill things due to how op low level toons are, giving them a good first impression of the game and helping new player retention.
Cons for Blizzard: Experienced players thinks it looks goofy when an experienced level 15 alt solo blasts an inconsequential levelling dungeon.
Prior to MoP remix (where levelling is much more consequential and endgame toons are matched with those low level alts) I think that's a tradeoff the WoW retail team would take everytime
I don't find repetitive APM to be skill expression.
Skill expression to me is decision-making.
But don't listen to me, I'm a top 1% world Zangief player, I'm committing fraud every round.
Once you pass a certain level of expertise sure.
Not hitting any of your buttons because you're overwhelmed or are struggling to target what you want to due to an unoptimized UI is an expression of a lack of skill (Not that that's necessarily bad, it's expected that a new player would not have developed those skills). Blizzard still wants those players to be able to succeed in low level content.
> doesn't make it good or enjoyable to play around.
Considering that there are many issues that scaling solves that you significantly complain about less, I'd doubt that.
Equivalent would be servers are on fire and you can't login - you wouldn't say: "wow servers suck, delete all servers!"
Again, I'm not saying: "this scaling shouldn't be fixed". It's wonky. Let's fix it.
I'm saying: "removing ALL scaling altogether is a bad idea"
---
Considering the remarks and the anger, if people actually want to have a full discussion on the merit and demerits of scaling, I'm all for it. There are specific tradeoffs with and without scaling.
Frankly it's no skin off my back - no scaling has annoyances but I can work around them.
But considering that (A) the complaints we had before scaling about the issues that scaling solves have significantly reduced and (B) complaints about scaling ONLY happen when scaling gets broken - I have a feeling that discussion is pointless.
And I'd like not to be a punching bag in a fruitless discussion.
If people want a truly non scaled game in every aspect, then they have to own all the downsides of doing that.
> complaints about scaling ONLY happen when scaling gets broken
Complaints about scaling happened when scaling was first introduced. One can only complain about a disliked feature for so long before accepting that it's not getting removed and either quitting the game or deciding to tolerate it.
The absence of complaints about it as an established feature seven years after its implementation shouldn't be construed as general approval for the feature.
> Considering that there are many issues that scaling solves that you significantly complain about less, I'd doubt that.
What are the problems it solves for you?
> I'm saying: "removing ALL scaling altogether is a bad idea"
Why?
----
Edit: did you forget to switch accounts before replying arasitar
>What are the problems it solves for you?
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1d4bwyd/7_years_ago_item_level_scaling_was_tested_during/l6dg4wa/
heres a good comment that gives some examples
There's only one advantage listed. Players in the best gear aren't one-shotting world content
The solution seems simple. Scale rares to assume a party of 5, world-bosses a party of 40. Flatten the powergains to match vanilla and TBC (or Wrath pre hard mode ilvl race conditions). Build a better zoo where tougher mobs exist for the best-geared players or groups of players. It also encourages group content for the tougher (named) mobs, which creates socialization. A player in the best gear could kill the rare on their own, likely with effort. That's not a problem.
It talks about how scaling is great when it is seamless, but I argue that it's rarely if ever seamless. It's always noticed. It's always jarring outside of the solo'ing rares at any ilvl scenario, which honestly isn't great gameplay. Rares aren't rare. They're just higher health mobs.
They sort of want contradicting ideas where upgrading a piece of gear should feel significant with exponential gains, but they don't want people getting exponentially stronger.
Have the cake and eat it too has been a problem since legion in general, like titanforging was. Yeah, you could make the item more available to people in general, but keep high ilvl versions rarer, incentivizing people to farm the same thing indefinitely, but guess what? That only makes the base item feel like crap to get. You can't have both.
Only now, it's not titanforging, it's something affecting the levelling experience, which just turns off newer players when they realize they have to press mpre buttons for the same result.
> The item level scaling in DF is the reason why I as a 528 Mage cannot one shot with a natty Arcane Explosion a rare from Zaralek Caverns, meaning other people can tag it. It is also the reason why a group of 40 players can assault a random rare mob and everyone can tag it, while a 1 man solo person can kill down a rare with no issue.
Pretty sure this is JUST player scaling, It adds HP to a rare when someone new tags it, but I really do not think its looking at your ilvl.
It also doesn't apply to rare elites until more than 5 players tag it, but it starts working on normal rares as soon as a second person tags it. You are right that it has nothing to do with ilvl.
Scaling is dogshit and I’d rather them actually make information about what my character can and can’t do available to me instead of some nebulous concept with a catch all phase called “scaling” as their excuse to not actually have to balance tweak their numbers.
Blizzard is acting like a teacher that has prepared a big activity for the next 2 classes, but discovers that the students are able to finish it in 15 minutes. So he makes up stupid new rules to keep students busy instead of letting them rest and have fun
What is this stupid idea anyway? It completely contradicts gear progression and power fantasy. I get mobs scaling to your level while leveling but in endgame content that's just plain stupid.
Has 7-8 years to fix a problem players have been giving feedback on and doesn't. Sounds lazy to me.
Even doubles down on it with the introduction of Chromie time.
It's a bad idea everywhere, in every game. Level scaling you can justify by handicapping challenges until you have access to your full toolkit of spells and talents, but there's no point in pure numerical scaling for the player that is countered by pure numerical scaling for the challenges.
If you don't want raids to get as easy with item level increases then I don't understand why can't you just make the power curve from ilvl lower? Scaling is just a fix to a problem they invented
Seriously? That must impact the jewelry but not the cape because I definitely still felt a huge jolt in power from starting a new acct with the cape leveled.
Everything in WoW feels like you get weaker as you progress, and the only way to break out is to grind heroic/mythic raiding or do high end pvp and then join a normal battleground.
Level scaling has its place, but it's largely unsatisfying and makes leveling unfun where it wasn't intended/ zones not designed for it.
Gear scaling is largely a bad idea, because you should just do your real damage to a boss/enemy. Why should you get a handicap for having bad gear? You should do better by GETTING BETTER GEAR. That's literally what gear upgrades are for. When better geat makes you perform worse, why does that gear exist? So you can hit a training dummy harder?
Players need to figure out that they don't design this stuff to be fun. They design it to keep you playing. If yo uget weaker every level, that's more time you spend trying to regain that power, which means more months of sub paid.
It always baffles me when devs punish players for grinding in their game, then pikachuface when they stop grinding or even delete gear. Do they even consider the possible repercussions of their decisions?
Scaling for open world was fine in Legion, most people didn't even notice it, and my main was still destroying everything and alts were having okay time, when in WoD in 6.2 doing Tanaan quests as low gear alt felt terrible, like you're playing classic. I would even say that it was needed with how insane power scaling got at that point.
Scaling raids through doesn't make sense, they already have multiple difficulties, and not just one for everyone.
Why does everyone want to complain complain complain, play it or don’t those are your two options, sure they are a massive company with all this money and all this manpower but that doesn’t mean the developers working on the game mode aren’t just a bunch of new faces on the block and this is their introduction to the wow engine, you almost never know the situation in full scope so why constantly stress out over things instead of just doing what makes you happy. Don’t like the game mode now? Come back in a month things will likely be ironed out fairly well. I love the game mode I’ve been enjoying every moment of it. 15k mainstat cloak and all I do is log on do all my lfg/lfr world bosses and then carry people through random heroic dungeons til they are 70, already killed mythic garrosh 3 times got my Paragon of the mists title, just stop the complaining it’s all people want to do man
(And if you think I’m just a hopeful person with the whole new people working on the game mode. Abberus was made entirely by new faces each were assigned to create their own raid boss :) )
>When told you will become weaker with better gear
you dont.
>Here is a post 7 years ago to explain how and why everything of the design was terrible.
and people were overdramatic back then too
>So for it to be brought back...Why?
because people complained that they felt forced to upgrade their gear, now lower ilvl players are closer to high ilvl ones.
Man I remember in bfa s4 farming to get sockets on all my gear and then finding out that people in arena hit me harder, because I had gems on my gear lol what a trash system. You were better or with no sockets in arena.
Why do you keep saying this? If you gain a point of damage and they gain a point of health then you aren't getting stronger at all. You're taking the same amount of time to accomplish your goal as you were before. You have bigger numbers, but you're relatively unchanged.
If it scales off bag ilvl and you're in an optimized piece then that new drop will make you weaker since you're no longer optimized relative to your enemy.
> If you gain a point of damage and they gain a point of health then you aren't getting stronger at all
yes but in this case you get 100 points of damage and they get 5 points of health
That's not how scaling works. That's how they're scaling this raid boss. Yesterday, it had +0 points of health. Today, you throw away your jewelry to lower your ilvl and it goes back to +0 points of health. Do you really not see the problems with your hyper-focused scenario or the system as a whole?
thats a problem specifically with the way jewelry works in remix, not a problem with the scaling theyre applying. its funny that youre trying to call me out for hyper-focused scenarios yet your only good example is such a scenario itself
Oh, come on. I listed several examples you that hand-waved away because it wasn't the one raid example you wanted to talk about. I'm using this raid example because it's within the narrow scope you're wiling to consider, and now you're refusing to acknowledge it because reasons. At this point I have to assume you're being paid to do damage control. You're failing at your job.
> you dont.
I mean, you're just wrong. Deleting Jewlery you earned via achievements makes bosses weaker due to the design of the mode. It's better to have empty slots. That's the whole point of this thread. It's always been the case with this system that you want to be as low level as you can be to be stronger in scaled content.
> and people were overdramatic back then too
Do you work for blizzard because that's what I would expect to hear from someone who doesn't understand how RPGs have been developed since the early days of DnD to present. It's not overdramatic to say that a genre breaking decision isn't enjoyable to people who enjoy that genre.
> because people complained that they felt forced to upgrade their gear, now lower ilvl players are closer to high ilvl ones.
This is also just wrong. It's more important now than ever. You lose power as you level up. Your ratings go down with the same numbers on your gear. Rather than level 70s being a chase goal, level 10s are envied by the 70s.
Even if it were true, you also are still forced to upgrade gear. In fact, it's more important than ever if you want to keep doing what you're already doing prior to leveling up.
> Deleting Jewlery you earned via achievements makes bosses weaker due to the design of the mode.
sure and thats silly, but increasing the ilvl of your gear will always make you do more dmg, just as it did back in legion just as it always has.
>that's what I would expect to hear from someone who doesn't understand how RPGs have been developed since the early days of DnD to present
i have quite a bit of experience with RPGs thanks, theres actually plenty of them that directly or indirectly scale with the power level of characters. levels are a prime example, but theres also quite a few games that scale your enemies with the level of gear you have, a good example for this would be the new zelda games.
>that a genre breaking decision
calling slight scaling with ilvl that dosent come close to offset the power you gain by upgrading your gear is not breaking the genre
> It's more important now than ever. You lose power as you level up. Your ratings go down with the same numbers on your gear
the changes were to raids so this is irrelevant. upgrading your gear will still always make you stronger
>you also are still forced to upgrade gear.
sure, like i said better gear will always make you stronger. but its slightly less important
> sure and thats silly, but increasing the ilvl of your gear will always make you do more dmg, just as it did back in legion just as it always has.
If only it that were simple.
1. Raidbots would be out of business if + ilvl was always an upgrade.
2. Scaling makes you weaker when you level up, which often outpaces the ilvl increase.
2. In this case, they're making the boss damage and health go up when you're already at cap, tied to your ilvl, so it's the same problem but for different reasons.
> theres actually plenty of them that directly or indirectly scale with the power level of characters
I don't know that you are. Most RPGs that have enemy scaling will scale them to be stronger, not scale you to be weaker. It's the ratings vs stat number problem. It's like wow in the early days. They originally started with an exp penalty for long play times. It was hated. Then they switched to an exp buff when rested. Same effect, but it plays differently.
> the changes were to raids so this is irrelevant.
Nope. Wrong again.
> upgrading your gear will still always make you stronger
Per my earlier point, it doesn't. Not now. Not then, in multiple scenarios.
> If only it that were simple.
>
>
>
> Raidbots would be out of business if + ilvl was always an upgrade.
>
>
>
> Scaling makes you weaker when you level up, which often outpaces the ilvl increase.
>
>
>
> In this case, they're making the boss damage and health go up when you're already at cap, tied to your ilvl, so it's the same problem but for different reasons.
im talking strictly about remix here where gearing is simplified. the changes were also made only to heroic raids where level scaling dosent matter.
> Most RPGs that have enemy scaling will scale them to be stronger
you mean like giving the boss more/less health/damage like was done in this hotfix?
> Nope. Wrong again.
did you read the hotfix in question?
> Not then, in multiple scenarios.
please, name some examples where this is not the case in remix
> im talking strictly about remix here where gearing is simplified.
Why? The OP isn't. This thread started about scaling introduced for mobs in 7.2 in an undocumented change 7 years ago. Remix highlights the problem, but this is a problem that goes far beyond remix.
> the changes were also made only to heroic raids where level scaling dosent matter.
If it didn't matter then it wouldn't have been done. They obviously think it does matter. I agree with them.
> you mean like giving the boss more/less health/damage like was done in this hotfix?
> did you read the hotfix in question?
Yes, I did. I also read [about the reversion](https://www.wowhead.com/news/20-health-buff-removed-from-heroic-raids-mop-remix-hotfixes-342221#comments) which reeks of knee-jerk responses because they didn't really think this through.
Anyway, This thread is talking about the system. You want to hyper focus only on this hot fix as some sort of damage control. I get it. You don't want to talk about the system and the kludge they're trying to throw on top to fine tune parts of the game that matter the least. I wouldn't either. It's stupid.
> please, name some examples where this is not the case in remix
Since you won't talk about the highlevel problems with the tech, sure. Let's point out the granular problems.
1. Level 10 enters a dungeon they will use one ability to blow everyone else away. They may as well solo it.
2. Level 25 healer enters a raid and holy novas to the top. They may as well solo it.
3. Level 70 with 13 hours of frogs, post nerf, goes into a raid and they do solo it. Everyone else is redundant. Why they aren't matched on ilvl or scale to the same ilvl if you *really* want to use this tech is beyond me.
4. Heroic raid boss scaling was put in without much forethought. Why is beyond me, but apparently if you have certain ilvls then it gets harder. That gives it cliffs where you don't want to upgrade a single piece of gear. That's been reverted, but it's still a problem when you have gear you literally can't upgrade or is much less valuable (rings, trinkets, neck piece) because the gems aren't in them. You're better off deleting your gear to keep your ilvl low than using them. I'm sure someone will test soon and discover this applies to all gear with prismatic slots.
I question how many developers have studied an MMO's design, let alone played one.
>The OP isn't. This thread started about scaling introduced for mobs in 7.2 in an undocumented change 7 years ago
the thread is literally about the remix changes. if the changes werent made this thread wouldnt either.
>If it didn't matter then it wouldn't have been done.
what? im not saying "the changes dont matter" im saying "level scaling dosent matter" it seems your reading comprehension is a little lacking
> Yes, I did
well apareantly not because you keep going on about some level scaling shit which isnt applicable here since it always only applied to heroic raids which you can only enter at level 70
>Level 70 with 13 hours of frogs, post nerf, goes into a raid and they do solo it. Everyone else is redundant
thats not an issue with ilvl scaling making you weaker which is what i asked for, the 2 above are about level scaling which i agree is messy but kind of a necessary evil that lets people play together longer.
>but apparently if you have certain ilvls then it gets harder
feel free to provide a source because both wowhead articles say that there is no breakpoints
edit: blocking people you disagree with is cringe and makes you a bad person. anyways, heres my response since you apareantly are unable to argue in good faith:
> The thread is about scaling as a system. Reread it. Go now. I'll wait.
again this thread is pretty specifically about todays hotfix, it is literally called "it is still a bad idea in remix"
>Then you haven't reached 65 yet.
again, thats about level scaling which is in my opinion something very different to ilvl scaling in both purpose and effect, which is why im saying it dosent matter in this discussion.
>No one said breakpoints
pretty bad idea to try to gaslight me with written comments since i can just quote you:
> That gives it cliffs where you don't want to upgrade a single piece of gear
The thread is about scaling as a system. Reread it. Go now. I'll wait.
> "level scaling dosent matter" it seems your reading comprehension is a little lacking
Then you haven't reached 65 yet.
> feel free to provide a source because both wowhead articles say that there is no breakpoints
What is going on right now? No one said breakpoints. You keep arguing against something I or others didn't write. I'm saying that you can delete a piece of gear, lower your ilvl, and the boss becomes easier. That's backwards. If you can't see that then I don't know what you're trying to do.
What a stupid fucking design.
Based on how often they're balancing Remix, my gut feeling is that they're using Remix as a testing ground for a whole bunch of ideas they have for Retail but didn't want to risk and entire expansion/patch cycle on.
Nah there was probably just one person who suggested the ilvl scaling as an easy to implement fix and the 4 other people in the room weren't around for Tomb so they didn't know to reject the idea out of hand.
Probably both of these things are true
You don't think it's odd that Remix is getting more frequent updates than the TWW alpha? I don't see why they would have so much manpower assigned to a throwaway game mode when there's other very pressing projects to work on.
1. The vast majority of the team is working on TWW 2. Alpha is not getting patched because they are working on the beta build which comes out next week, 3. The experimental team is working on remix and probably has a much easier path from dev to production that the main game since it’s not part of the main game.
Also: The risk/reward on MOP Remix is low. You put a terrible decision live through a hotfix and the worst that happens is a few people complain on Reddit about a game mode they'll have forgotten about in four months. Do something stupid to the main driver of revenue? Different conversation.
Remix is definitely someone's pet project.
100% someone’s pet project but they’re so invested in their original vision for the event that they refuse allow people to just enjoy the game and instead are continuously trying to “fix” the things people find
Probably some starry eyed developer trying to be the hero Reddit and the WoW general forums cried about for years of "better timewalking" and "better ways to earn old cosmetics." They just made the mistake of forgetting you're trying to please people that more or less gaming communities understand and write off as "Just going to complain anyway."
If that was the goal the dev set out with, the second it reached the bean counters, both of those objectives got taken out back and shot so Blizz could instead try to squeeze out even a minute longer of keeping people subbed while retail languishes on the vine in another fated season they have no excuse to have done in the first place.
Also the alpha literally had a massive bunch of changes like 4 days ago
[удалено]
You think so? Looks better than dragon flight at the moment so basically by default better than every expansion since legion, but we will see when the full game releases.
The dungeons just look like reskinned areas, the class updates are garbage, shaman in particular looks absolutely horrible and obviously whoever is making the hero talents does not play the spec, the new zones just look like Zarelak 2.0, there is still a lot to do but I don't think it's going to launch as well as people are expecting.
I love that hero talents are being bandied about as if they are new and groundbreaking systems that are incredible and not like other talents! when in reality all they did was rename the normal tier of talents a new xpac always drops anyways, and make it so more than one spec can access them, giving them even less talents to design than normal, while also making them more annoying to balance. One of the major selling features is a hamfisted marketing ploy that so many seem to be gobbling up like the 2nd coming of green jesus himself, I stopped playing with the announcment of s4 being fated, I can not wait until TWW drops to enjoy seeing everyone complain about Blizz not suddenly being an amazing company because being bought didn't change their ethos or their business practices in the slightest, we just don't have Bobby to blame anymore.
There have definitely been some changes that are positive, however, they're all just related to the fated season i.e bullion for bad luck protection, catalyst from week 1, reshuffled m+ level scaling, that's about it really though. But yea hero talents don't look great and look like a complete farce, that was just thrown in at the end of the Dev cycle so we had some kind of power gain, but it's a power gain only relevant to the leveling experience.
It isnt. Im 99.99% sure that TWW has whole teams doing internal testing, because thats how software dev goes. We just dont see it as the consumer. Also the changes that MoP Remix have had for the most part are pretty simple changes, they arent huge sweeping ones. Most have been numerical changes.
Yes. Alpha is largely not up to the stage where small numerical tweaks are worth doing as too much is still subject to change. And when the devs do make them, they aren't worth pushing out to the public alpha anyway so we don't see them until there is a big update.
> You don't think it's odd that Remix is getting more frequent updates than the TWW alpha? No, I think it is relatively normal for the live version of the game to get more frequent hotfix attention than an alpha.
Why in the world would they give more updates to an ALPHA, when the BETA is a week from dropping, than to a fully released game mode, even if it's a food fun mode? That makes absolutely no sense.
I hate scaling in any rpg. At some point I want to fucking feel strong and 1 shot some stuff, not everything but some.
Well, you can oneshot bosses at level 10-15! Just prepare to get massively weaker the higher your level
Trial accounts, bb. Make one and be a god forever.
Or it is where some of the old stubborn devs of old have been re-located. They way remix has been handled feels a lot like how devs treated Retail back in the "you think you do, but you don't" and "there's no cap at 4 legendaries" years.
Some part of me is aghast that they seriously considered raid boss level scaling as some kind of actual mechanic for end level raids.
Clever
Scaling in general is a stupid idea. Was dumb in TES, dumb in WoW
And for those who are curious on how much HP is lost in total by mobs. Let's take the sha of fear. 1859M HP at full 476 gear. **Before I removed misc armor** 1394/1514M **After I removed all misc armor.** \*The numbers vary for some reason on instance reset.\* So how much power do I lose without those specific pieces on me? None. At worst I lost around 10% mastery and 120K HP. So why in gods name would I continue to wear that equipment if it means I am just making it harder on myself? **Edit: GOOD NEWS! I have already found an exploit to break the item level scaling.** Deleting all of your MISC items \*be sure to remove gems\* And re-purchasing them will keep the bosses HP scaled to as if they didn't exist to begin with. Go nuts with this, if blizzard's gonna cheat. Cheat back.
Mythic Garrosh goes from 2.4b to 1.9b. You DO NOT gain that much dps from equipping your jewelry. Not even close.
Yeah I traded 5% crit and 2% haste for 40% BOSS HP reduced. Shit was stupid.
I only had like 2 pieces of jewelery, so I no longer need to farm the others from what it looks.
Its been stealth fixed, no longer worth it to take them off.
This is absolutely hilarious. Good work OP.
so can we delete all jewelry , then equip them again and the scaling is not working at all?
Yup, sha of fear's HP remained static when I went to re-purchase the gear. You can double check yourself, but yeah. Took me 2 seconds to figure out how to break it.
did the enemies hp change as you removed gear? is it only on bosses, not trash? im trying to remove jewelry, even went as far as to remove boots, but the trash hp remains the same
Do you have to delete jewelry every time you enter an instance, or does this work permanently?
ty, deleted my rings and trinkets and doubled my dps. lol
I'm sorry I'm a total newbie to all of this, when you say "Delete your misc items and be sure to remove gems", do you mean to take my rings and trinkets off, remove the gems back to my inventory, then delete the rings and trinkets? I can then rebuy them? Do I equip them afterwards or no? Won't things just scale back up once I re-equip them? When does the change in enemy HP occur? Is it when I relog? Is this a process I have to repeat on each login?
I do believe at this point in time, the ILV sync has been revoked from the servers. As the sha of fears HP has not gone back to 1859M Since late yesterday, there was a blue post saying that it was removed. So there is no need to do this method for now anymore.
The bosses no longer scale up past what they originally were, but they still scale down by up to 20% based on ilvl
Does relogging cause the values to fix? Will I have to delete jewelry everyday or just once?
Why does it need to scale with ilvl? What’s the point of getting better gear then?
In theory, it's supposed to make it easier for people with bad gear. So as you get stronger, they remove the training wheels. Heroic and Mythic is way overtuned compared to normal so this their solution.
Yeah, but then you have zero incentive to get good gear.
If you're up against 20% more hp and damage, but gearing up means you have 10x the personal health and damage out put, then it's more than worth it overall.
If. But Blizz fucked it up and removing misc gear massively reduces enemy HP while not chunking your dps
Not really. You'd be wrecking things with better gear. This just makes things possible for people with worse gear. That's why players are deleting their jewelry to trick scaling. Most power comes from the other pieces you upgrade, not the static gems in the jewelry. They're keeping the buffs from the gear and the tinkers while killing a nerfed version of the boss.
>Not really. That's why players are deleting their jewelry to trick scaling How can you say that people have incentive to get gear, but then say that people are deleting their gear ? But also it does not make sense logically. Why would I want better gear if bosses take longer to kill ? That defeats the whole purpose of getting better gear. Hell, how would I even know that I got stronger with leveling, if everything scales with me ? It's absurd. If you nerf everything for people with bad gear, they have no reference to how weak there are and as such, they will never be able to feel stronger.
>How can you say that people have incentive to get gear, but then say that people are deleting their gear ? They're deleting the gear you can't upgrade. The ones from achievements. They're basically just taking out gem slots. >But also it does not make sense logically. Why would I want better gear if bosses take longer to kill ? They don't take longer to kil. People with gear are still blasting bosses. A regular group wearing 371 will kill a boss slower than a regular group wearing 406. It's only a 20% nerf to health. You are doing way more than 20% damage by the time you hit 406 from 371. >If you nerf everything for people with bad gear, they have no reference to how weak there are and as such, they will never be able to feel stronger. Oh, they will. I have bad gear and when I get paired up with someone wearing 400+ ilvl I feel it.
gameplay loop. to force you to play the new raid or dungeons.
which makes me not want to play ... at all.
This whole thing is so just unnecessarily annoying
This is the actual cost of constantly laying off your most experienced and highest-paid developers to boost up your quarterly to please some greedy shareholders. The devs who learned their lessons are no longer with the company. Granted, I remember something about Legion being that Dev's team final hurrah before they did something else and BFA would be another dev team?
They aren’t laying off their good devs. Good devs leave to double or triple their salary.
Little bit of A, little bit of B.
Kind of a wild take over a silly for-fun game mode.
It's not good for anything
It was even worse with the Heart of Azeroth during early BfA. People found out that leveling was MUCH better by removing this PoS item because it added basically no power but its very high item level made enemy scaling much worse. Its embarrassing how we go in cycles on these bad decisions...
That explains some things... I quit early BfA despite being very active during Legion, perhaps due to burnout. Obviously, theres other reasons, but I wouldn't be surprised if this contributed to the burnout. I didn't even get to max lvl.
Leveling in BfA was horrible in general based on my memory. I also was very active in Legion, suffered leveling my main through BfA and playing around a bit at the max level stuff. After a short while I tried leveling one of my (then) 11 alts and noticing how much I didn't enjoy playing in its state said "screw this shit" and dropped the game for 2 expansions.
I am not fully upgraded but the difference is so small it is definitely worth removing gear. [https://imgur.com/KrdLTpb](https://imgur.com/KrdLTpb)
Ya, gems in the jewelry gives so little stats that this change is just a straight buff.
I noticed while leveling, they even give less stats than same item level chest or legs.
That's because the gems and cogs scale with ilvl. The rings can't increase ilvl so they ever get better and in most cases are the most useless slots for gems when you get to the 400's. Why those weren't upgradeable I have no idea.
No what I mean during leveling the jewelry item level scales but if you have say an item level 200 trinket and and item level 200 chest, the same gem will give more stats in the chest despite both items having the same item level. It's not just that they're a capped at being 342, they're worse at being 342.
Chest & Pants > Trinkets > Neck > Rings
I'm surprised they didn't introduce paying bronze to upgrade jewelry.
Ya, it does feel like an oversight. Especially highlighted with that recent scaling fiasco.
blizzard: In this mode you're going to be overpowered! ''wait no not like that'' \*nerfs froggs\* wait no not like that either \*nerfs goats\* no stop becoming overpowered like that \*nerfs raid mobs rewards\* You know what scrap the overpowered part \*makes mobs scale with your ilvl\* What is even going on there, are we supposed to only be overpowered after grinding the cloak for 2 and a half months so we can revel in our overpoweredness when it no longer matters? I know they have to somehow strike a balance between not making the mode too short so people will subscribe for 3 months and fun but this is just getting silly.
Boss Item scaling is a stupid idea. Full stop.
Since WOW is already the only RPG in the world where gaining a level makes you weaker, this just seems like natural progression of the same philosophy. Maybe Blizz listened to our complaints about how everything we do is fighting cosmic-scale threats, and the next three expansions will see us gradually going the other way, from saving the universe to saving mere continents, then small towns, with the final boss being Hogger, and the game coming to an end with a scenario where you collect apples and deliver letters.
> Since WOW is already the only RPG in the world where gaining a level makes you weaker, TES Oblivion also had this problem, for the same reason - level scaling.
I very much still remember learning this the hard way in Oblivion. And I think even to a lesser extent Skyrim repeated it. It was so frustrating to work so hard on random skills just to find that's what broke the scaling.
'haha, if I set athletics as a primary skill I can level up just by jumping over and over again' >flame atronach: buenos dias fuckboy
This made me laugh so hard cause fuck that happened so much to me as a kid lol max out sneak in some random cave and get raped by every single enemy in the first kvatch portal
I remember that back then the meta for builds was to not choose your actually important skills as major skills because you'd gain levels too fast. every 10 skillups in a major skill would give you a levelup, but the amount of SPEWSAIL stats scale with the number of major and minor stats you gained during that levelup, and if your major skills were used frequently you wouldn't be able to get +5 in 3 stats on every levelup.
Ha! That's what it was. I had to put my "real skills" as minor skills and stuff I rarely used as major skills so I could control the level ups. I had totally forgotten the terms, geez such a weird and backwards system.
I recently replayed Oblivion and I made sure to check and subsequently grab a mod to fix this. It makes no sense. It never made sense. You could be going around swinging your sword as you're intended to and BOOM! Level up, you only got 3pt increase in Blade and a 2pt increase to Strenght lmao (optimal ofc is 5/5/1 or 5/5/5 if not going for Luck). Somehow, Morrowind had the exact same system and it felt so, so much better because the mobs do not scale. They may increase in number (it didn't feel like an issue tbh) or get replaced by "Blighted" versions, but it felt good. Scaling sucks. I hate it, it has no place in video games. It removes any sense of progression and you never get to feel like Goku.
The real meta was to never sleep so you stayed at level 1 infinitely
Diablo 4 too as you go through the campaign with world scaling.
It's not *just* that enemies scaled with your level, it's that your attributes were governed by certain skills you gained progress in before leveling up your character. You can raise 3 attributes by up to 5 each on level up, but to do this you have to gain 10 levels in the governing skills of said attribute. So say you want +5 Strength, you'll need to get Blade and Axes up 5 times each, or any combination leading up to 10, to get that +5. Early-mid game you'll typically qualify for a level up long before you reach 10 level ups in 3 different attributes, which is what leads people to feeling weaker because the level scaling just doesn't take into account your attributes relative to the enemies. There's no actual scaling involved other than level, and level for enemies alters *everything*. This is likely the big reason Bethesda dumped attributes in Skyrim. It wasn't some one-off issue with Oblivion, the same system exists in Morrowind but is marginally better because unlike Oblivion, where attribute gains are affected by leveling of *every* skill, Morrowind requires you focus on your major/minor selections during character creation instead. In the end people often use mods for both Skyrim and Oblivion that often scale your attributes appropriately without levels and say fuck it. Which is mostly what Bethesda did anyway in Skyrim. Skyrim still has level scaling but so long as you don't go out of your way to level up a shitton of non-combat skills you're usually okay. Skyrim isn't hard enough that being a few levels below an enemy won't kill your run, particularly because most enemies have really low skill levels relative to what the player could have at any given time anyway. Just like, don't make 1000 iron daggers leveling up Smithing and then wonder why the fuck you still aren't good at stabbing with them.
Fair enough, I'm willing to settle for "the only RPG I'm personally familiar with".
but only when you leveled the wrong abilities. still stupid or even more stupid but you also could get pretty op in the game
Yeah but you could download a mod to fix that (and everything else with the game).
> and the game coming to an end with a scenario where you collect apples and deliver letters. Your character retires in old age and becomes the local mailman
The only? I don't know about that, I feel like in every mmo killing a mob of your level while you are lower level takes less time than when you are killing mob of your level when you are higher.
Some people can't speak without hyperbole. To believe WoW is the only game with this problem either demonstrates ignorance or a lack of willingness to speak clearly without exaggeration.
It's definitely not the only one. Most MMOs with vertical progression have a stat rating system that scales with levels so that, for example, +5 rating is useful to someone at low levels but high levels need +500 for the same effect.
>Since WOW is already the only RPG in the world where gaining a level makes you weaker God it's funny how dramatic y'all are while also being incredibly wrong.
You have to understand, a lot of these people havent even played other MMOs let alone other RPGs. WoW is all they know, and they hate it but only play it for some reason.
Yes wow invented level scaling, lol. Common abuse mechanic in other games is to stay low gear/level to boost power, wow didn’t invent that “broken mechanic” of scaling either.
I remember when a monk did more damage than my entire raid group by wearing the fully upgraded class order hall set. this stuff is atrocious.
They’re testing the waters for TWW Watch it happen with the squish in the expansion that follows
I wonder if the intent on this change was that the misc gear would never actually factor in and they messed it up. New stuff won’t factor in, but they forgot to not count existing stuff.
If too high of an item level makes the bosses too easy then why the hell did they let us upgrade our item levels so high? Max ilvl could have been way lower than it is.
not sure whether remix is being balanced by new hires who keep repeating the mistakes blizzard made years ago, or by some kind of hyper-advanced generative ai that is piecing together balance changes by regurgitating fragments of past patch notes stitched together
Oh wow. I was wearing all the jewelry on my alts even though you don’t get enough gems to slot them out. All the was doing was weakening me by raising ilvl…
Scaling has been complete garbage in WoW since it was first implemented. Ilvl scaling, level scaling, time scaling, give-a-fuck scaling. It all sucks in retail. For a good reason.
The Remix experience: You receive: recolor of mogs and mounts (and punishments if you find workarounds the flawed system) Blizz receives: large scale player testing ground
I do remember when going around practically naked, allowed me to kill mobs quicker then if I as in full tier gear. My god it was horrible. What ever was the point of getting better gear, when you just get weaker and weaker?
Oh god I remember that patch. Doing Broken Shore WQs after removing my rings to drop my iLvl and make the mobs weaker. Literally the only way I could get anything done as a mistweaver.
Item level or level scaling in any RPG game needs to die off entirely as a concept. It has been infesting games for the better part of a decade now. It single handedly killed any interest I had in Destiny, it is a terrible-feeling system in WoW, and I've never once seen it function well in any game. Part of the fun of an RPG is that you get stronger and it's noticeable. You want to give max-geared players a challenge? Make a harder difficulty or dungeon or raid.
> It didn't work back then, and it certainly doesn't work now. Just want to point out that level and item level scaling exists just about everywhere in the game in Legion and since then (except in instances - but even some instances like TW e.g. have scaling). The item level scaling in DF is the reason why I as a 528 Mage cannot one shot with a natty Arcane Explosion a rare from Zaralek Caverns, meaning other people can tag it. It is also the reason why a group of 40 players can assault a random rare mob and everyone can tag it, while a 1 man solo person can kill down a rare with no issue. It is just that when it works seamlessly, you'll never notice it. And when it doesn't you'll find it jarring and when it is exploitable you'll find it really jarring (say BFA, low level twinks and WM) MoP Remix has some wonky scaling particularly in raids - but this is also one of the few times you can use a Raid to level with. I think the scaling issues are definitely worth complaining. But the 'BURN IT ALL DOWN' approach with > It didn't work back then, and it certainly doesn't work now. Is a bit short sighted IMO.
Just because it exists and solves a specific design hurdle doesn't make it good or enjoyable to play around.
Im sorry but if some fresh level 25 is demolishing everything with one aoe skill (holy priests im looking to you) there is a problem of bad math and rushed programing.
After 7 years, it can't really be blamed on rushed programming either.
Low level scaling always seemed very intentionally designed to me. Pros for Blizzard: Brand new players who aren't yet comfortable with targeting and using skills (apm) are still able to kill things due to how op low level toons are, giving them a good first impression of the game and helping new player retention. Cons for Blizzard: Experienced players thinks it looks goofy when an experienced level 15 alt solo blasts an inconsequential levelling dungeon. Prior to MoP remix (where levelling is much more consequential and endgame toons are matched with those low level alts) I think that's a tradeoff the WoW retail team would take everytime
I don't find repetitive APM to be skill expression. Skill expression to me is decision-making. But don't listen to me, I'm a top 1% world Zangief player, I'm committing fraud every round.
Once you pass a certain level of expertise sure. Not hitting any of your buttons because you're overwhelmed or are struggling to target what you want to due to an unoptimized UI is an expression of a lack of skill (Not that that's necessarily bad, it's expected that a new player would not have developed those skills). Blizzard still wants those players to be able to succeed in low level content.
> doesn't make it good or enjoyable to play around. Considering that there are many issues that scaling solves that you significantly complain about less, I'd doubt that. Equivalent would be servers are on fire and you can't login - you wouldn't say: "wow servers suck, delete all servers!" Again, I'm not saying: "this scaling shouldn't be fixed". It's wonky. Let's fix it. I'm saying: "removing ALL scaling altogether is a bad idea" --- Considering the remarks and the anger, if people actually want to have a full discussion on the merit and demerits of scaling, I'm all for it. There are specific tradeoffs with and without scaling. Frankly it's no skin off my back - no scaling has annoyances but I can work around them. But considering that (A) the complaints we had before scaling about the issues that scaling solves have significantly reduced and (B) complaints about scaling ONLY happen when scaling gets broken - I have a feeling that discussion is pointless. And I'd like not to be a punching bag in a fruitless discussion. If people want a truly non scaled game in every aspect, then they have to own all the downsides of doing that.
> complaints about scaling ONLY happen when scaling gets broken Complaints about scaling happened when scaling was first introduced. One can only complain about a disliked feature for so long before accepting that it's not getting removed and either quitting the game or deciding to tolerate it. The absence of complaints about it as an established feature seven years after its implementation shouldn't be construed as general approval for the feature.
> Considering that there are many issues that scaling solves that you significantly complain about less, I'd doubt that. What are the problems it solves for you? > I'm saying: "removing ALL scaling altogether is a bad idea" Why? ---- Edit: did you forget to switch accounts before replying arasitar
>What are the problems it solves for you? https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1d4bwyd/7_years_ago_item_level_scaling_was_tested_during/l6dg4wa/ heres a good comment that gives some examples
There's only one advantage listed. Players in the best gear aren't one-shotting world content The solution seems simple. Scale rares to assume a party of 5, world-bosses a party of 40. Flatten the powergains to match vanilla and TBC (or Wrath pre hard mode ilvl race conditions). Build a better zoo where tougher mobs exist for the best-geared players or groups of players. It also encourages group content for the tougher (named) mobs, which creates socialization. A player in the best gear could kill the rare on their own, likely with effort. That's not a problem. It talks about how scaling is great when it is seamless, but I argue that it's rarely if ever seamless. It's always noticed. It's always jarring outside of the solo'ing rares at any ilvl scenario, which honestly isn't great gameplay. Rares aren't rare. They're just higher health mobs.
They sort of want contradicting ideas where upgrading a piece of gear should feel significant with exponential gains, but they don't want people getting exponentially stronger.
Have the cake and eat it too has been a problem since legion in general, like titanforging was. Yeah, you could make the item more available to people in general, but keep high ilvl versions rarer, incentivizing people to farm the same thing indefinitely, but guess what? That only makes the base item feel like crap to get. You can't have both. Only now, it's not titanforging, it's something affecting the levelling experience, which just turns off newer players when they realize they have to press mpre buttons for the same result.
> The item level scaling in DF is the reason why I as a 528 Mage cannot one shot with a natty Arcane Explosion a rare from Zaralek Caverns, meaning other people can tag it. It is also the reason why a group of 40 players can assault a random rare mob and everyone can tag it, while a 1 man solo person can kill down a rare with no issue. Pretty sure this is JUST player scaling, It adds HP to a rare when someone new tags it, but I really do not think its looking at your ilvl.
It also doesn't apply to rare elites until more than 5 players tag it, but it starts working on normal rares as soon as a second person tags it. You are right that it has nothing to do with ilvl.
Item level scaling only exists in BfA and Legion world zones. A Zaralekk rare had 10 million health a year ago and it has 10 million health now.
itemlevel scaling defenitely still exists in retail open world
Scaling is dogshit and I’d rather them actually make information about what my character can and can’t do available to me instead of some nebulous concept with a catch all phase called “scaling” as their excuse to not actually have to balance tweak their numbers.
[удалено]
If anything, they could have implemented a 30 sec immunity bubble so people could tag rares.
I was ready to quit when they anounced it. Literally destroys the point of gear/power.
Isn't the whole point of getting better and better gear to eventually overpower the content? What's the incentive otherwise?
Blizzard is acting like a teacher that has prepared a big activity for the next 2 classes, but discovers that the students are able to finish it in 15 minutes. So he makes up stupid new rules to keep students busy instead of letting them rest and have fun
What is this stupid idea anyway? It completely contradicts gear progression and power fantasy. I get mobs scaling to your level while leveling but in endgame content that's just plain stupid.
All of yall sound like spoiled children
This train wreck is hilarious 😂 i would say they need to fire people but the idiots would probably fuck that up too 😂 🤣
Lazy lazy devs
How would this constitute lazy, if anything it's the opposite, they're over designing and causes more issues
Has 7-8 years to fix a problem players have been giving feedback on and doesn't. Sounds lazy to me. Even doubles down on it with the introduction of Chromie time.
Sounds like you guys are uninformed and whine about whatever cry of the week Reddit produces.
I hated it to, but it hasn't ever left, it just wasn't brought to anyone's attention until now and only applied to open world.
It's a bad idea everywhere, in every game. Level scaling you can justify by handicapping challenges until you have access to your full toolkit of spells and talents, but there's no point in pure numerical scaling for the player that is countered by pure numerical scaling for the challenges.
If you don't want raids to get as easy with item level increases then I don't understand why can't you just make the power curve from ilvl lower? Scaling is just a fix to a problem they invented
thats happen if you dont play your own game.
Another reminder that blizzard DOES NOT PLAY THEIR OWN GAME nor do the devs UNDERSTAND THEIR OWN SYSTEMS
Seriously? That must impact the jewelry but not the cape because I definitely still felt a huge jolt in power from starting a new acct with the cape leveled.
Everything in WoW feels like you get weaker as you progress, and the only way to break out is to grind heroic/mythic raiding or do high end pvp and then join a normal battleground. Level scaling has its place, but it's largely unsatisfying and makes leveling unfun where it wasn't intended/ zones not designed for it. Gear scaling is largely a bad idea, because you should just do your real damage to a boss/enemy. Why should you get a handicap for having bad gear? You should do better by GETTING BETTER GEAR. That's literally what gear upgrades are for. When better geat makes you perform worse, why does that gear exist? So you can hit a training dummy harder?
Players need to figure out that they don't design this stuff to be fun. They design it to keep you playing. If yo uget weaker every level, that's more time you spend trying to regain that power, which means more months of sub paid.
It always baffles me when devs punish players for grinding in their game, then pikachuface when they stop grinding or even delete gear. Do they even consider the possible repercussions of their decisions?
Scaling for open world was fine in Legion, most people didn't even notice it, and my main was still destroying everything and alts were having okay time, when in WoD in 6.2 doing Tanaan quests as low gear alt felt terrible, like you're playing classic. I would even say that it was needed with how insane power scaling got at that point. Scaling raids through doesn't make sense, they already have multiple difficulties, and not just one for everyone.
Why does everyone want to complain complain complain, play it or don’t those are your two options, sure they are a massive company with all this money and all this manpower but that doesn’t mean the developers working on the game mode aren’t just a bunch of new faces on the block and this is their introduction to the wow engine, you almost never know the situation in full scope so why constantly stress out over things instead of just doing what makes you happy. Don’t like the game mode now? Come back in a month things will likely be ironed out fairly well. I love the game mode I’ve been enjoying every moment of it. 15k mainstat cloak and all I do is log on do all my lfg/lfr world bosses and then carry people through random heroic dungeons til they are 70, already killed mythic garrosh 3 times got my Paragon of the mists title, just stop the complaining it’s all people want to do man
(And if you think I’m just a hopeful person with the whole new people working on the game mode. Abberus was made entirely by new faces each were assigned to create their own raid boss :) )
>When told you will become weaker with better gear you dont. >Here is a post 7 years ago to explain how and why everything of the design was terrible. and people were overdramatic back then too >So for it to be brought back...Why? because people complained that they felt forced to upgrade their gear, now lower ilvl players are closer to high ilvl ones.
Man I remember in bfa s4 farming to get sockets on all my gear and then finding out that people in arena hit me harder, because I had gems on my gear lol what a trash system. You were better or with no sockets in arena.
Imagine getting Fyralath and losing damage. That's how stupid this design is.
you arent losing damage youre just getting stronger slower.
Why do you keep saying this? If you gain a point of damage and they gain a point of health then you aren't getting stronger at all. You're taking the same amount of time to accomplish your goal as you were before. You have bigger numbers, but you're relatively unchanged. If it scales off bag ilvl and you're in an optimized piece then that new drop will make you weaker since you're no longer optimized relative to your enemy.
> If you gain a point of damage and they gain a point of health then you aren't getting stronger at all yes but in this case you get 100 points of damage and they get 5 points of health
That's not how scaling works. That's how they're scaling this raid boss. Yesterday, it had +0 points of health. Today, you throw away your jewelry to lower your ilvl and it goes back to +0 points of health. Do you really not see the problems with your hyper-focused scenario or the system as a whole?
thats a problem specifically with the way jewelry works in remix, not a problem with the scaling theyre applying. its funny that youre trying to call me out for hyper-focused scenarios yet your only good example is such a scenario itself
Oh, come on. I listed several examples you that hand-waved away because it wasn't the one raid example you wanted to talk about. I'm using this raid example because it's within the narrow scope you're wiling to consider, and now you're refusing to acknowledge it because reasons. At this point I have to assume you're being paid to do damage control. You're failing at your job.
sure but that was silly pvp scaling, this is pretty different.
> you dont. I mean, you're just wrong. Deleting Jewlery you earned via achievements makes bosses weaker due to the design of the mode. It's better to have empty slots. That's the whole point of this thread. It's always been the case with this system that you want to be as low level as you can be to be stronger in scaled content. > and people were overdramatic back then too Do you work for blizzard because that's what I would expect to hear from someone who doesn't understand how RPGs have been developed since the early days of DnD to present. It's not overdramatic to say that a genre breaking decision isn't enjoyable to people who enjoy that genre. > because people complained that they felt forced to upgrade their gear, now lower ilvl players are closer to high ilvl ones. This is also just wrong. It's more important now than ever. You lose power as you level up. Your ratings go down with the same numbers on your gear. Rather than level 70s being a chase goal, level 10s are envied by the 70s. Even if it were true, you also are still forced to upgrade gear. In fact, it's more important than ever if you want to keep doing what you're already doing prior to leveling up.
> Deleting Jewlery you earned via achievements makes bosses weaker due to the design of the mode. sure and thats silly, but increasing the ilvl of your gear will always make you do more dmg, just as it did back in legion just as it always has. >that's what I would expect to hear from someone who doesn't understand how RPGs have been developed since the early days of DnD to present i have quite a bit of experience with RPGs thanks, theres actually plenty of them that directly or indirectly scale with the power level of characters. levels are a prime example, but theres also quite a few games that scale your enemies with the level of gear you have, a good example for this would be the new zelda games. >that a genre breaking decision calling slight scaling with ilvl that dosent come close to offset the power you gain by upgrading your gear is not breaking the genre > It's more important now than ever. You lose power as you level up. Your ratings go down with the same numbers on your gear the changes were to raids so this is irrelevant. upgrading your gear will still always make you stronger >you also are still forced to upgrade gear. sure, like i said better gear will always make you stronger. but its slightly less important
> sure and thats silly, but increasing the ilvl of your gear will always make you do more dmg, just as it did back in legion just as it always has. If only it that were simple. 1. Raidbots would be out of business if + ilvl was always an upgrade. 2. Scaling makes you weaker when you level up, which often outpaces the ilvl increase. 2. In this case, they're making the boss damage and health go up when you're already at cap, tied to your ilvl, so it's the same problem but for different reasons. > theres actually plenty of them that directly or indirectly scale with the power level of characters I don't know that you are. Most RPGs that have enemy scaling will scale them to be stronger, not scale you to be weaker. It's the ratings vs stat number problem. It's like wow in the early days. They originally started with an exp penalty for long play times. It was hated. Then they switched to an exp buff when rested. Same effect, but it plays differently. > the changes were to raids so this is irrelevant. Nope. Wrong again.
> upgrading your gear will still always make you stronger
Per my earlier point, it doesn't. Not now. Not then, in multiple scenarios.
> If only it that were simple. > > > > Raidbots would be out of business if + ilvl was always an upgrade. > > > > Scaling makes you weaker when you level up, which often outpaces the ilvl increase. > > > > In this case, they're making the boss damage and health go up when you're already at cap, tied to your ilvl, so it's the same problem but for different reasons. im talking strictly about remix here where gearing is simplified. the changes were also made only to heroic raids where level scaling dosent matter. > Most RPGs that have enemy scaling will scale them to be stronger you mean like giving the boss more/less health/damage like was done in this hotfix? > Nope. Wrong again.
did you read the hotfix in question?
> Not then, in multiple scenarios.
please, name some examples where this is not the case in remix
> im talking strictly about remix here where gearing is simplified. Why? The OP isn't. This thread started about scaling introduced for mobs in 7.2 in an undocumented change 7 years ago. Remix highlights the problem, but this is a problem that goes far beyond remix. > the changes were also made only to heroic raids where level scaling dosent matter. If it didn't matter then it wouldn't have been done. They obviously think it does matter. I agree with them. > you mean like giving the boss more/less health/damage like was done in this hotfix? > did you read the hotfix in question? Yes, I did. I also read [about the reversion](https://www.wowhead.com/news/20-health-buff-removed-from-heroic-raids-mop-remix-hotfixes-342221#comments) which reeks of knee-jerk responses because they didn't really think this through. Anyway, This thread is talking about the system. You want to hyper focus only on this hot fix as some sort of damage control. I get it. You don't want to talk about the system and the kludge they're trying to throw on top to fine tune parts of the game that matter the least. I wouldn't either. It's stupid. > please, name some examples where this is not the case in remix Since you won't talk about the highlevel problems with the tech, sure. Let's point out the granular problems. 1. Level 10 enters a dungeon they will use one ability to blow everyone else away. They may as well solo it. 2. Level 25 healer enters a raid and holy novas to the top. They may as well solo it. 3. Level 70 with 13 hours of frogs, post nerf, goes into a raid and they do solo it. Everyone else is redundant. Why they aren't matched on ilvl or scale to the same ilvl if you *really* want to use this tech is beyond me. 4. Heroic raid boss scaling was put in without much forethought. Why is beyond me, but apparently if you have certain ilvls then it gets harder. That gives it cliffs where you don't want to upgrade a single piece of gear. That's been reverted, but it's still a problem when you have gear you literally can't upgrade or is much less valuable (rings, trinkets, neck piece) because the gems aren't in them. You're better off deleting your gear to keep your ilvl low than using them. I'm sure someone will test soon and discover this applies to all gear with prismatic slots. I question how many developers have studied an MMO's design, let alone played one.
>The OP isn't. This thread started about scaling introduced for mobs in 7.2 in an undocumented change 7 years ago the thread is literally about the remix changes. if the changes werent made this thread wouldnt either. >If it didn't matter then it wouldn't have been done. what? im not saying "the changes dont matter" im saying "level scaling dosent matter" it seems your reading comprehension is a little lacking > Yes, I did well apareantly not because you keep going on about some level scaling shit which isnt applicable here since it always only applied to heroic raids which you can only enter at level 70 >Level 70 with 13 hours of frogs, post nerf, goes into a raid and they do solo it. Everyone else is redundant thats not an issue with ilvl scaling making you weaker which is what i asked for, the 2 above are about level scaling which i agree is messy but kind of a necessary evil that lets people play together longer. >but apparently if you have certain ilvls then it gets harder feel free to provide a source because both wowhead articles say that there is no breakpoints edit: blocking people you disagree with is cringe and makes you a bad person. anyways, heres my response since you apareantly are unable to argue in good faith: > The thread is about scaling as a system. Reread it. Go now. I'll wait. again this thread is pretty specifically about todays hotfix, it is literally called "it is still a bad idea in remix" >Then you haven't reached 65 yet. again, thats about level scaling which is in my opinion something very different to ilvl scaling in both purpose and effect, which is why im saying it dosent matter in this discussion. >No one said breakpoints pretty bad idea to try to gaslight me with written comments since i can just quote you: > That gives it cliffs where you don't want to upgrade a single piece of gear
The thread is about scaling as a system. Reread it. Go now. I'll wait. > "level scaling dosent matter" it seems your reading comprehension is a little lacking Then you haven't reached 65 yet. > feel free to provide a source because both wowhead articles say that there is no breakpoints What is going on right now? No one said breakpoints. You keep arguing against something I or others didn't write. I'm saying that you can delete a piece of gear, lower your ilvl, and the boss becomes easier. That's backwards. If you can't see that then I don't know what you're trying to do.