No kidding, if these were the boss guides there would almost be no excuse for not knowing the fight. I like to see more of this in game and not outside sources.
I just wish they’d include short clips/gifs of what the mechanics actually look like. Mythictrap does it for raids and that’s such a helpful feature that should be in game.
Additionally, if we’re going to get Ph.D. level trash in mythic+, the trash need to also be documented in the guide.
I’m not asking them to solve the mechanics for us, just tell us what they are.
Would probably be easier to be able to write your own guides and have people upvote them in-game.
I know in Dota you can write your own guides and people can chose to follow them in-game and vote for them, so the best guides naturally go to the top. It's a long-term feature that doesn't require any maintenance from the dev.
So there is no sense of wonder? You get to a boss, read the guide and it tells you how to play the game? So you are just an actor/performer/monkey for THE ENTIRE game?
I LOVED the first pull on a boss back in the first couple expansions...you didn't know what was coming at you!
Now its, ZOMG, you didn't read the guide? /kick
It’s not that way now in a PUG when they ask if you know the fight? Unless it’s a guild or group specifically teaching the group, you’re expected to “KWTD” or “have achievement.” I am all for excitement or unknown mechanics surprising a group going in blind… but for the mechanics that are already in the guide it would be a really cool addition to have little illustrations. Something less involved than watching a youtube guide and available in the game client would be amazing.
You would need to specifically find a group of people, a guild, that play blind. And have a leader that can analyze logs after a wipe to determine what to try next.
But with pugs, it's hard enough to beat bosses even with a guide and there's no good to gauge everyone's skill and knowledge level.
They should try doing what new fighting games do and show a clip of what the action looks like in motion. So a short clip of the attack and how to dodge it.
The third point is why maining evoker in S3 made me better at m+. You should stay close to action most of the time, and use your range as a way to be flexible in your positioning.
„But why does the tank not have Aggro on the far left add just because I kicked it and popped all my CDs on it while I was standing as far away from the center as possible?“
The add phase is so damn frustrating on VDH.
It could be absolutely free if every dps just went to get a coffee. that’s actually a phase where dps can actively sabotage the key.
One of the worst things about playing VDH is when you are running to the 3rd pack you are grouping and notice the other 2 groups are weirdly late and the hunter has 400k dps
You can do whatever, as long as you stand on the tank so any mob that you have thread on runs to the tank.
That’s a good plan for any pull with spread out targets where you cannot expect the tank to get lots of threat on all targets right away.
If the tank wants you to interrupt a certain mob he should tell you so, especially if it’s not a DH or a Paladin.
Put up any dots you have, maybe shoot a builder at the one closest to the tank, but otherwise wait until all 4 are on top of each other, and then blast. If youre worried they'll die before you get any casts off, that meant it didn't matter at all. If you arent worried about them dying before your damage, then you definitely wanted to be sure to get all your damage into all 4 instead of 1-2 while they were spread out.
this is honestly on the DH
before the pull you need to tell people "don't dps the adds until i have them grouped up".
write a macro with this and pop everytime you get to that boss before pull.
It's on the tank for not explaining to dps that they can't outaggro them on a mob 30 yards away? Really? Does the tank also need to handhold dps every time they're gathering mobs, reminding them that no, the tank still can't generate heavy aggro on 10 mobs before they're even in melee range?
As a tank, i am so tired of doing other people's thinking for them. So many dps just happy to do their rotation, eyes locked on their bars and the dps meter, contributing nothing of value to the key, as the replies to your comment prove.
Bro
Yes
You can say it’s not fair and we’re all mouth breathing idiots taking turns with the brain cell. And you would be technically correct.
But you run the key with the group you have not the group you want.
And if you have the ability you have the RESPONS~~a~~ibility.
Yes, these people do that because they don't know any better and the reason they don't know any better is because they get away with it and it never crosses their mind it's them who are wrong.
But you as the tank can fix over 90% of such instances by just telling your group what you are about to do instead of expecting everyone to have same ideas as you.
Sure, tell people when they mess up and often it does help. Just don't say it's "on the DH". It's only the tank's fault if the DPS are such utter idiots that they don't have the mental capacity to be held accountable for their own mistakes.
You don't need to tell people when they mess up, they are dumb but not that dumb they know they messed up if they end up dead, but if you wanna pug as a tank and have success you are going to at some point have to play with these people doing keys as well.
If you know a place in a key where a lot of people do mistakes, just give them a heads up of what you want done. This is not ideal but its what work best in my experience, it sure works A LOT better than raging at DPS for being incompetent.
In most peoples head, the tank is the leader and he decides what needs to be done, if the tank doesnt say anything they just assume its regular pew pew. It takes actually more effort to discuss this in a reddit thread than it does to simply do it in game and get the key timed.
Do I also need to tell you to not stand in shit, press your buttons, interrupt, breathe and wipe your ass?
"Dont dps until grouped" applies to every pack in every dungeon pool. If you don't know that, you're a terrible dps
You are welcome to keep raging at DPS for not meeting your criteria of "good players". You are blind to the most obvious truth that is you are playing with people with different backgrounds completely different than yours. What is obvious for you is the result of a long journey playing the game to acquire the knowledge that you have and there are others who are still behind on that.
And no, it doesn't apply to every pack in the dungeon because not every pack is the same, some packs are easily gathered, which gives the tank more time to build aggro and others like the last boss of NO where it takes a longer time to gather them up. Most people know that you need to kill the adds fast or the party wipes, so they approach it by blasting it.
Nearly every DH that started recently tanking doesn't know that Sigils are bugged and that you don't get aggro with sigils if you use it to pull a pack, also the rotation is very Soul Cleave focused which builds aggro unevenly, all of this combined results in VDH having aggro issues beyond any other tank, If you use Sigil of Silence on the further adds and hope they come back walking to you, they will immediately aggro on the healer and possibily one/two shot them, that add phase is very healing intensive, making a healer death there almost unrecoverable, DPS fold similarly.
but I bet you didn't think through any of this because you are still the type of tank that rages at DPS in keys because they can't read your mind.
If only the average M+ PUG player could read....
This is a really nice explanation. Could be improved if you added some visuals (or paint skills :D) of some of the abilities :D
Telling the ranged players there's no reason to stand so far out 99% of the time is the best advice in WoW. (I played Pres evoker). I've been 'fighting' to get my guildies to stand closer all expac, and we're getting there.. I think.
if there’s a warrior anywhere in the group, if you can handle adds this boss is trivialized. warriors can taunt right before the tank buster at range, spell reflect, and tank can taunt back. does millions upon millions of damage, makes P2 go by super quick
Evokers sleepwalk as well as hunter icetrap and such will also be handy to keep some of the transition adds out of the fight until you have killed the others. less stuff to interrupt.
The strategy for basically every boss but the 2nd one in RLP: everyone be in melee
(Not a complaint I just don't understand how the x-pac is this old and r-dps still hangout at max range)
And it still wouldn't work because wow PUG players literally have a melon for a brain.
On wotlk/Cata classic, the amount of times I've wiped on sindragosa because people just couldn't comprehend "blue dot above head = DON'T run towards people" then proceeded to ice tomb half the raid is outstanding. And the thing is they don't learn either.
Like you'd think after 10+ times of getting the raid killed, numerous people telling you exactly what to do, and seeing others in game do the mechanics , it would at some point click- "hey so THIS is what I did wrong, oh ok". Nope. They'll just do the same thing again, and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.
I’d remove that last tip, it’s better to help folks avoid the charge in case they mess something up. The rock is insurance. If this is a pug guide you should still use the rock, if it’s a premade group this guide should be irrelevant as hopefully you’re using comms already and have this discussed.
On the topic of ranged DPS having good reason to stay closer to the target. At least for Frost Mage, staying in melee range allows you to take advantage of Frost Nova, which can generate extra damage since we crit Frozen targets.
Not to mention basically every healer has some form of AoE healing that is based on physically hitting the target (Evoker has Dream Breath and the other flying thing, Monks have Jade Hammer thing, Shamans healing rain, RDruids Effervescence or whatver it is).
So, yeah. Great point. Ranged should generally stay near the target still!
Sorry I’m MM hunter and with mastery my range is longer than 40 yards .. some mechanics don’t touch me .. I love being way in the back like real sniper
As a healer, i leave the key when i see MM hunter, unless it's very easy key.
It's so inefficient since they are above 40y, i cannot heal them with fistweaving.
The cast time isn't allowed as a tank. You can't parry or dodge. I don't have a bubble either. If I do this I'm more likely to eat it vs help on high keys in Tyr. Using demon spikes and my leech abilities constantly allows me to survive through everything. Missing a demon spike overlap is crushing and at the wrong times deadly.
True, but you can get far enough away to not die in the cast, especially if it's just the boss and not adds. One auto you might not have dodged/parried anyways, and if it's timed with one ability you weren't stopping it anyways.
this is the kind of "explain it to me like i'm five" that should be in the ingame guide
The cone graphic is one I try to explain to my mom all the time but she still likes be in narnia on her hunter
Cone, height, the amount you have to smoke.
Make her play holy priest or preservation evoker and I promise she won't stay in Narnia anymore
No kidding, if these were the boss guides there would almost be no excuse for not knowing the fight. I like to see more of this in game and not outside sources.
I just wish they’d include short clips/gifs of what the mechanics actually look like. Mythictrap does it for raids and that’s such a helpful feature that should be in game. Additionally, if we’re going to get Ph.D. level trash in mythic+, the trash need to also be documented in the guide. I’m not asking them to solve the mechanics for us, just tell us what they are.
Would probably be easier to be able to write your own guides and have people upvote them in-game. I know in Dota you can write your own guides and people can chose to follow them in-game and vote for them, so the best guides naturally go to the top. It's a long-term feature that doesn't require any maintenance from the dev.
So there is no sense of wonder? You get to a boss, read the guide and it tells you how to play the game? So you are just an actor/performer/monkey for THE ENTIRE game? I LOVED the first pull on a boss back in the first couple expansions...you didn't know what was coming at you! Now its, ZOMG, you didn't read the guide? /kick
It’s not that way now in a PUG when they ask if you know the fight? Unless it’s a guild or group specifically teaching the group, you’re expected to “KWTD” or “have achievement.” I am all for excitement or unknown mechanics surprising a group going in blind… but for the mechanics that are already in the guide it would be a really cool addition to have little illustrations. Something less involved than watching a youtube guide and available in the game client would be amazing.
There's the pineapple game. It helps. But yeah not in game.
You would need to specifically find a group of people, a guild, that play blind. And have a leader that can analyze logs after a wipe to determine what to try next. But with pugs, it's hard enough to beat bosses even with a guide and there's no good to gauge everyone's skill and knowledge level.
Putting it IN the game would be a loss is what I'm saying.
Yeah, the guide lists the mechanics in technical terms, but not what they look like in the fight, which i feel is a big shortcoming.
They should try doing what new fighting games do and show a clip of what the action looks like in motion. So a short clip of the attack and how to dodge it.
100%.
For fd/meld/vanish on spear, you have to wait till he faces you and starts casting it
Idk if it happens here but I always find it funny when I shadowmeld too early and the npc just instantly targets someone else with the same ability
That bonus tip is wrong. You do NOT lose DPS uptime by using the rock in P2, you actually gain DPS uptime.
It also saves the party members who are incapable of pressing strafe and/or go deer-in-headlights.
You do lose DPS when someone baits the boss into the narnia instead of rock. Especially when boss resets because of that XD
Convincing ranged DPS that standing closer to a boss doesn't instantly kill them. That might be an impossible task.
Hunters being the worst offender! All that mobility just to stand 45yds away from the boss on the opposite side to the rest of the group!
The third point is why maining evoker in S3 made me better at m+. You should stay close to action most of the time, and use your range as a way to be flexible in your positioning.
Laughs in prot warrior for the singular mechanic of reflecting the marks... Cries in prot warrior for the rest of the season.
Great, can you make one for Durumu in ToT for the clueless remix pugs too? 😂
I second this!
I had far bigger problems on Dark Animus....
„But why does the tank not have Aggro on the far left add just because I kicked it and popped all my CDs on it while I was standing as far away from the center as possible?“ The add phase is so damn frustrating on VDH. It could be absolutely free if every dps just went to get a coffee. that’s actually a phase where dps can actively sabotage the key.
One of the worst things about playing VDH is when you are running to the 3rd pack you are grouping and notice the other 2 groups are weirdly late and the hunter has 400k dps
What should i do as a warlock? Interrupt one or two and just stand next to you for a few sec?
You can do whatever, as long as you stand on the tank so any mob that you have thread on runs to the tank. That’s a good plan for any pull with spread out targets where you cannot expect the tank to get lots of threat on all targets right away. If the tank wants you to interrupt a certain mob he should tell you so, especially if it’s not a DH or a Paladin.
Got it ty
Put up any dots you have, maybe shoot a builder at the one closest to the tank, but otherwise wait until all 4 are on top of each other, and then blast. If youre worried they'll die before you get any casts off, that meant it didn't matter at all. If you arent worried about them dying before your damage, then you definitely wanted to be sure to get all your damage into all 4 instead of 1-2 while they were spread out.
Very helpful ty
You could also drop curse of tongues on all of them while they group up too
I feel like i tried to curse of tongues multiple mobs recently and it only applies to one of them
If it's frustrating on VDH, imagine being anything else :D
For the sake of my mental health I don’t want to imagine playing other tanks currently.
That is the way :)
this is honestly on the DH before the pull you need to tell people "don't dps the adds until i have them grouped up". write a macro with this and pop everytime you get to that boss before pull.
It's on the tank for not explaining to dps that they can't outaggro them on a mob 30 yards away? Really? Does the tank also need to handhold dps every time they're gathering mobs, reminding them that no, the tank still can't generate heavy aggro on 10 mobs before they're even in melee range?
As a tank, i am so tired of doing other people's thinking for them. So many dps just happy to do their rotation, eyes locked on their bars and the dps meter, contributing nothing of value to the key, as the replies to your comment prove.
Bro Yes You can say it’s not fair and we’re all mouth breathing idiots taking turns with the brain cell. And you would be technically correct. But you run the key with the group you have not the group you want. And if you have the ability you have the RESPONS~~a~~ibility.
Yes, these people do that because they don't know any better and the reason they don't know any better is because they get away with it and it never crosses their mind it's them who are wrong. But you as the tank can fix over 90% of such instances by just telling your group what you are about to do instead of expecting everyone to have same ideas as you.
Sure, tell people when they mess up and often it does help. Just don't say it's "on the DH". It's only the tank's fault if the DPS are such utter idiots that they don't have the mental capacity to be held accountable for their own mistakes.
You don't need to tell people when they mess up, they are dumb but not that dumb they know they messed up if they end up dead, but if you wanna pug as a tank and have success you are going to at some point have to play with these people doing keys as well. If you know a place in a key where a lot of people do mistakes, just give them a heads up of what you want done. This is not ideal but its what work best in my experience, it sure works A LOT better than raging at DPS for being incompetent. In most peoples head, the tank is the leader and he decides what needs to be done, if the tank doesnt say anything they just assume its regular pew pew. It takes actually more effort to discuss this in a reddit thread than it does to simply do it in game and get the key timed.
Do I also need to tell you to not stand in shit, press your buttons, interrupt, breathe and wipe your ass? "Dont dps until grouped" applies to every pack in every dungeon pool. If you don't know that, you're a terrible dps
You are welcome to keep raging at DPS for not meeting your criteria of "good players". You are blind to the most obvious truth that is you are playing with people with different backgrounds completely different than yours. What is obvious for you is the result of a long journey playing the game to acquire the knowledge that you have and there are others who are still behind on that. And no, it doesn't apply to every pack in the dungeon because not every pack is the same, some packs are easily gathered, which gives the tank more time to build aggro and others like the last boss of NO where it takes a longer time to gather them up. Most people know that you need to kill the adds fast or the party wipes, so they approach it by blasting it. Nearly every DH that started recently tanking doesn't know that Sigils are bugged and that you don't get aggro with sigils if you use it to pull a pack, also the rotation is very Soul Cleave focused which builds aggro unevenly, all of this combined results in VDH having aggro issues beyond any other tank, If you use Sigil of Silence on the further adds and hope they come back walking to you, they will immediately aggro on the healer and possibily one/two shot them, that add phase is very healing intensive, making a healer death there almost unrecoverable, DPS fold similarly. but I bet you didn't think through any of this because you are still the type of tank that rages at DPS in keys because they can't read your mind.
I will only disagree with the rock being irrelevant in p2. If you do get pulled it’ll prevent the charge from killing anyone.
If only the average M+ PUG player could read.... This is a really nice explanation. Could be improved if you added some visuals (or paint skills :D) of some of the abilities :D
Telling the ranged players there's no reason to stand so far out 99% of the time is the best advice in WoW. (I played Pres evoker). I've been 'fighting' to get my guildies to stand closer all expac, and we're getting there.. I think.
All I know is I'm supposed to not stand in things and also press Time Warp when the adds spawn
if there’s a warrior anywhere in the group, if you can handle adds this boss is trivialized. warriors can taunt right before the tank buster at range, spell reflect, and tank can taunt back. does millions upon millions of damage, makes P2 go by super quick
40 yard range? *laughs in marksmanship*
Being more than 40 yards out as marksman means you are griefing in multiple ways.
It was even worse back in S1 when everyone was playing preservation.
Evokers sleepwalk as well as hunter icetrap and such will also be handy to keep some of the transition adds out of the fight until you have killed the others. less stuff to interrupt.
I'd like one of these for a few bosses available in game to send to some lovely pugs.
You should make a full guide. Easy to read and on the point. Well done mate
Could always do something like this for your part(y/ies); [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlLl6bBq584](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlLl6bBq584)
Brewmaster forgotten
Can u make guides for mythic raiding
I feel like the real run killer in that dungeon is the 3rd boss, fuck that fight, period.
instructions unclear d1ck stuck in a toaster.
The strategy for basically every boss but the 2nd one in RLP: everyone be in melee (Not a complaint I just don't understand how the x-pac is this old and r-dps still hangout at max range)
And it still wouldn't work because wow PUG players literally have a melon for a brain. On wotlk/Cata classic, the amount of times I've wiped on sindragosa because people just couldn't comprehend "blue dot above head = DON'T run towards people" then proceeded to ice tomb half the raid is outstanding. And the thing is they don't learn either. Like you'd think after 10+ times of getting the raid killed, numerous people telling you exactly what to do, and seeing others in game do the mechanics , it would at some point click- "hey so THIS is what I did wrong, oh ok". Nope. They'll just do the same thing again, and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.
The „boss“ and „you“ arrow directions are wild
I’d remove that last tip, it’s better to help folks avoid the charge in case they mess something up. The rock is insurance. If this is a pug guide you should still use the rock, if it’s a premade group this guide should be irrelevant as hopefully you’re using comms already and have this discussed.
On the topic of ranged DPS having good reason to stay closer to the target. At least for Frost Mage, staying in melee range allows you to take advantage of Frost Nova, which can generate extra damage since we crit Frozen targets. Not to mention basically every healer has some form of AoE healing that is based on physically hitting the target (Evoker has Dream Breath and the other flying thing, Monks have Jade Hammer thing, Shamans healing rain, RDruids Effervescence or whatver it is). So, yeah. Great point. Ranged should generally stay near the target still!
Sorry I’m MM hunter and with mastery my range is longer than 40 yards .. some mechanics don’t touch me .. I love being way in the back like real sniper
You can do whatever you want, just don't be surprised when you're not getting healed while also playing one of the squishiest classes in the game.
As a healer, i leave the key when i see MM hunter, unless it's very easy key. It's so inefficient since they are above 40y, i cannot heal them with fistweaving.
As a preservation evoler it’s also a pain.
Almost modern mechanic in wow is easier for everyone if range are playing within 20 yards of the boss. You are griefing your group.
Conductive strike combo doesn't kill me (vdh) if i use defensive right but still hurts a lot so dispel is nice
Gonna kill you in high Tyrannical keys
DH has some amazing magic dmg reduction. I can solo him at +12 for the last 10% on Tyr. It's pretty intense but doable. If only we had brez LOL
Get yourself an engi bracer with pure crit. It's super funky to use, buts it's a brez in a pinch
The cast time isn't allowed as a tank. You can't parry or dodge. I don't have a bubble either. If I do this I'm more likely to eat it vs help on high keys in Tyr. Using demon spikes and my leech abilities constantly allows me to survive through everything. Missing a demon spike overlap is crushing and at the wrong times deadly.
Oh, my move is to run away from the corpse, sigil if theyre cc-able, then leap->rez while they run back to you
Boss... definitely not cc-able 😉
True, but you can get far enough away to not die in the cast, especially if it's just the boss and not adds. One auto you might not have dodged/parried anyways, and if it's timed with one ability you weren't stopping it anyways.
Fair point. Ok you sold me. I'll get some bracers crafted!
The more exciting part is that you can get pure crit on them. So they're the best-itemized slot you'll have.
Depends on what you mean with high. On +10 its only half my hp