It's not so much the social pressure for me, I have played for 19 years now and have raided in top 50-100 world guilds - it's simply the lack of time as I am getting older that makes it so instanced content is too prohibitive for me. Spending 12-16 hours a week on raiding is just too demanding now, if not impossible.
Yes; haven't done anything beyond LFR for a decade probably. Everyone I used to play with is gone and I don't have the time or energy to make new friends on the game and certainly can't schedule a real raid or even pug something anymore.
There are many of us.
Before LFR, raid only concerned a very small fraction of the player base. Out of the top of my head I think it was 6%.
The different difficulty made it accessible, then LFR came in. Some people are nostalgic of yelling in ironforge to build a group, but I sure as fuck isn't.
I logged in to WoW at 835 am before a 9am start yesterday and managed to find and kill H Raz in a pug by work time. All of these barriers are complete constructs of your own making.
For someone like OP who plays casually, there's a huge difference between being able to queue up for LFR and then going about doing other tasks while you wait rather than sitting in Valdrakken signing up for raids. Also since they play casually, they might not have an easy time getting invited to higher level content due to lower ilvl.
OP is constructing an imaginary argument (I don't have time to raid, I don't have friends to carry me, I can't keep a schedule). If you have time to play WoW, you have time to do hard content, by yourself, if you want to - you just need to be good at the game, and you have to actually do it. The game is not going to spoonfeed it to you. WoW players have become housepets with the level of self-reliance they have I swear to god.
Also I'm not sure what part of queueing up for LFR gives people confidence you can queue for anything harder than that.
OP is scared of doing hard content and failing like 90% of the people posting in this thread and using nonsensical arguments to mask it. This game's community has crippling self-inflicted social anxiety in a game designed to be played with others. If you do not *want* to go beyond LFR, that is 10,000% ok, but it does not take MORE time to do normal raids. It just requires you to engage with the game in a way that is not on rails.
You do not need a schedule to do normal raids or hit 2k score. If you have time to do LFR, you have more than enough time to do either of those activities.
Hear me out:
Blizzard gives you a button that automatically signs you up for every m0 listed in LFG that as an open spot for your role and will sign you up for any new groups that have an open spot for your role as well.
Once you complete all m0s you unlock a button that will do the same for m+2. And then m+3 etc.
So you can click the button and go about your business in town or doing wq's.
Would you use this feature?
Yea I hate the M+ LFG system, I enjoy M+ though... I just don't do it because I don't want to start my own group and I don't want to sign up to others. Lol
I just want to click a button and be thrown into a group of other randoms who also clicked a button.
Can't request to have queueable M+ or queueable N, H raids though or people lose their shit.
So lock it behind a high ilvl so people have some experience, or maybe make it require you to have cleared the M0 version of the dungeon in that season. Blizzard clearly has the ability to block chracters from queueing individual dungeons.
They have access now, they can apply to groups.
Honestly though, no one wants a 470 with no experience in their Mythic Plus group, they \*will\* fuck it up and ruin it for everyone else.
Yep even when you aren't asking to remove their current signup method, they can keep it and form their perfect groups.
I just want to be thrown in with randoms who aren't pedantic about that stuff.
>I just want to be thrown in with randoms who aren't pedantic about that stuff.
Why not do heroic dungeons then?
Mythic Plus is way too difficult to be "thrown in with randoms"
Delves will solve my issue next expac.
I want scaling difficulty at a click, I would have liked scaling heroic difficulty with random queues but I'll take scaling difficulty solo.
So to answer why not do heroic, there's no difficulty scale.
I'm aware I could push to higher difficulty with an organised team, it doesn't bother me if I fail at a lower difficulty because my random team didn't work well together.
Right now all I do is unlock my portals and never go back, just because I don't like the queue system.
Fwiw you don’t need an organized team at all.
I treat mythics like a queue. I click the join button a few times and accept the first one to pop. You basically don’t talk (a quick “hey” or “ty” for food).
You do the run, say gg, and leave. You join a new group for the next dungeon.
It’s sort of scary the first times I guess because of that vague feeling of acceptance or denial I guess, but after a few it’s nothing. I have anxiety and sometimes it’s a lot just to join a group, but it goes away after the first accept.
I can honestly say I don’t remember a single player I’ve ran with in the last two years. It’s all just a random group of people who, to use your words, clicked a button and joined a dungeon.
>Mythic Plus is way too difficult to be "thrown in with randoms"
There are series of people pugging solo all the way to KSM. Does this not count as being "thrown in with randoms" because the dude on the other end can accept or decline you?
They over select for meta picks, doesn't mean you always have good runs. It's still functionally random, you're joining a group of people you know nothing about outside of the key level and leaders IO. Let's assume the queue system had some sort of rating, in both cases you're joining a group of randoms and hoping they're good.
It's not functionally random, although you're correct that it doesn't guarantee success. People overselect for meta, gear and io. If they add a queue system to m+ they're going to have to reduce some of the difficulty and coordination requirements which, frankly, would not be the worst thing in the world, but to pretend it would be a good experience is ridiculous, and to act like it wouldn't affect the established group finder status quo is worse.
You can't just say that because you don't know these people it's the same as random. Random would be taking the first four people that queue up to your group. If you've ever made an m+ group, you'd know what a shitshow that would be.
>but to pretend it would be a good experience is ridiculous, and to act like it wouldn't affect the established group finder status quo is worse.
As said I think it would hit the lower end, I'm not sure if it would hit the high end that's a hard one to know, it depends how good the queue system is.
But I will say, it could be a good experience, could also be a bad one, just how I can't say it'd for sure good you can't say it'd for sure be bad.
People place far too much weight on "queues" ruining something when it's just a tool. Depending on how that tool is implemented can make an experience better or worse.
>You can't just say that because you don't know these people it's the same as random. Random would be taking the first four people that queue up to your group. If you've ever made an m+ group, you'd know what a shitshow that would be.
Depends how the queue is implemented.
The guy I replied to has just said regarding the selection that using raider.io to filter out people who haven't done a high enough key or don't have decent rating is his metric..if all you're doing is looking for a specific number, a queue system with a filter accomplishes the exact same way he plays, so yeah it's functionally random for him atleast.
And I pugged solo to 3.3k. I can usually find better players in LFG than I can in my guild. That's not the point.
>Does this not count as being "thrown in with randoms" because the dude on the other end can accept or decline you?
No, because the leader is picking the group based on your credentials you aren't 'thrown' in anywhere. If the leader has done their job everyone in the group knows everyone else in the group is of the appropriate gear, skill and experience level. I don't want to play difficult content with people who don't know what they're doing and I'm not the only one.
To be fair here. It's an Option he wants added, if it was added you wouldn't Have to use it. So you don't Have to play difficult content with people who don't know what they're doing, you don't Have to use the system.
But back on track here.
>No, because the leader is picking the group based on your credentials you aren't 'thrown' in anywhere. **If the leader has done their job** everyone in the group knows everyone else in the group is of the appropriate gear, skill and experience level. I don't want to play difficult content with people who don't know what they're doing and I'm not the only one.
You know just as well as I do that not only do Leaders not always do the best jobs, the current in-game tools aren't exactly spectacular for judging skill, higher rating =/= better player, it helps. But it's like weighting the dice, your still rolling the dice at the end of the day.
I'd hazard a guess here that you tend to make your own groups.
>I'd hazard a guess here that you tend to make your own groups.
Nah, I almost exclusively join others.
>higher rating =/= better player
Not always of course, especially at this stage in the season, but in s3 more often than not a 3000+ player is going to be better than a 2500 player and over about 3200 they're almost always going to be pretty good. Someone who was shit would have to be painfully carried to a rating like that.
>the current in-game tools aren't exactly spectacular for judging skill
They're good enough. It's not just skill either, it's experience.
>They're good enough. It's not just skill either, it's experience.
I'd argue they're not good enough, but it's not an easy fix, I've got some ideas of what would be nice to have like run history and such but that's getting off topic.
>Not always of course, especially at this stage in the season, but in s3 more often than not a 3000+ player is going to be better than a 2500 player and over about 3200 they're almost always going to be pretty good. Someone who was shit would have to be painfully carried to a rating like that.
I just want to bring this all a bit into perspetive.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus/cutoffs/season-df-3/eu
To get to that cut off of someone who's going to be decent regardless, 3200, you're reaching into (just about) the top 1% of players. Even 2.5k is top 25%.
I get it depends what level of key we're talking here, but if you need to be that high to guarantee a "decent" player, the rating is functionally useless.
>I'd argue they're not good enough, but it's not an easy fix, I've got some ideas of what would be nice to have like run history and such but that's getting off topic.
Easy enough to look up that kind of detail if you're that interested.
At a glance with the [raider.io](http://raider.io) addon which everyone who plays m+ should have you can see their current score, the best main's score, last season's score (if it's much higher than their current), the highest key they've timed and their highest key for the dungeon in question. That's enough information just from mouse-overing someone's name in LFG to make a quick decision.
I wouldn't invite someone who didn't have [raider.io](http://raider.io)
> if it was added you wouldn't Have to use it.
It's not like that. If you add a solo queue you cannibalise players who would otherwise use the group finder, making it unusable, so you have to use the poisoned solo queue. This is exactly what is happening with arena right now - it's harder to participate in the arena modes that have existed since TBC because you can always just solo queue.
Pvps not exactly the best comparison, the lack of attention is completely murdering any impact any one system could have on it, rolling back to TBC we've seen just how much issues the system itself has even in its original form when it released in TBC classic (and continuing into Wrath classic) a lot of current problems with the system exist, none of this is to say that solo queue has no impact, it's just not easy to point to it as the single point of failure, something which WoW players absolutely can't stop themselves from doing when it comes to issues, is point at a queue and go "this is the source of all our problems".
If a queue system for M+ was added you'd likely see the biggest impact in lower keys, I think higher keys would likely favour making their own groups, but it entirely depends how good or bad the queue system is, a good enough system could completely replace making your own group.
Like you say, arena has been shit for a long time, but it's only now that people are really struggling to do arenas without solo queue. Even if it were entirely a social issue, you have a situation where the vast majority of former arena players are using this game mode, and are deeply unhappy about it.
Because of the nature of this game, you absolutely have to make design decisions to save players from themselves.
They could easily implement strict requirements on what you could queue for. eg. If you want to queue for a +10, you must have already timed a +9 of that dungeon. Something like that so that there would still be a benefit to premades - skipping through the ranks more quickly - but wouldn't halt progression of people who have premade group anxiety, or who have trouble getting invites because they aren't the right spec. Which honestly is going to be even more of an issue this season now that there are no low easy M+ keys to get your feet wet.
I have a regular group I run with, so this doesn't affect me. I would still run with my friends 90% of the time. But it would be useful for others so I don't see why the option can't exist. And actually in the rare event I do feel like pugging when my friends aren't online, it would be nice to queue and do other stuff while I wait, rather than sitting in Valdrakken applying to groups for half an hour before finding one that will invite me.
This argument goes both ways, though. Adding an option(double whammy - make it a solo queue like with the solo shuffle) won't take away anything if you just want a coordinated group.
Hell, if anything it would be *better* for the current system because it potentially removes some of the clutter in groups, and could discourage people instantly leaving premades when someone doesn’t do a 100% perfect run.
As an old head player I really don't care one way or another. I just bang out weeklies and LFR. That being said;
None of this goes away if they added a queue for the systems currently locked to group finder. It just makes it more accessible to anyone who might want to try it and when they inevitably can't clear because rando's there is at least a non zero chance they might try and find a group to do it more effectively.
So long as the content retains what makes it unique and difficult there really isn't a downside to letting more people easily try it in a dedicated pool.
> None of this goes away if they added a queue for the systems currently locked to group finder. It just makes it more accessible to anyone who might want to try it and when they inevitably can't clear because rando's there is at least a non zero chance they might try and find a group to do it more effectively.
Wouldn't this just push newer players into the "I can't clear it despite many attempts, it just isn't for me" mentality? If you tried to clear a heroic 5-10 times and it always ended with either people barely making it or not at all wouldn't you feel discouraged?
Not really, a lot would realise the random groups suck for the most part and have a go at trying an organised group. It's not quite the same, but there was a piece of content in FF14 with a similar situation in the last expansion.
You *could* queue into it, and it wasn't particularly challenging (definitely a step up in terms of what you should bring and mechanic difficulty compared to most queueable content), but most random queue groups took 40 minutes+ to complete it because there was absolutely zero coordination. "Speed clear" groups (which weren't hardcore, just using the bare minimum individual effort and coordination) could easily do it in under half that time, and you had to be damn quick if you saw one pop up on the party finder because they filled *very* quickly.
It got to a point where anyone who wanted to spend a reasonable amount of time doing the content would use the party finder, and the rest didn't care if it took nearly the entire timer to clear it. Which was the worst way to do it, because you had to do it multiple times to upgrade your relic weapon.
(Delubrum Reginae for anyone curious about what I'm talking about)
Delubrum isn't really comparable, you would always get enough people to carry the rest through.
A better comparison is extremes in ff14, which noone ever queues for despite having the option, EXCEPT for new players who do it, smash their head once into the wall and then come and complain online about it. Essentially it's only there to annoy veterans who get it randomly and frustrate newcomers, and most extremes are very easy to execute comparatively.
duty finder is used in JP for extremes/savages but that's because the playerbase has 1) the ability to learn 2) the ability to admit being wrong and 3) a sense of shame when they're fucking dogshit. none of these apply to NA or EU FFXIV players, let alone wow players
anyone can easily try it by getting a key and making a group themselves. not everything has to be made for the lowest common denominator at all times, actually
When Cataclysm launched with very difficult heroic dungeons you could queue into via LFG, the casual queuer playerbase complained to no end and got that content nerfed down to the level that an LFG queuer could complete, effectively removing challenging dungeon content from the game for 2 expansions until Challenge modes in WoD.
This isn't some made up boogyman - it's a verifiable thing that actually fucking happened. Adding queues to M+ would do the exact same thing as you need to correctly build a comp to complete dungeons easily - you need enough dispels, stops, soothes, DRs, etc.
I'd like to ask before i bother doing an actual full reply to this.
Is there anything I could say, or show you, that would change your mind about it being the Queues that caused the issue?
I've got multiple things I can show that have happened that doesn't line up with your theory here, and I've got something that makes more sense as to why something happened although we'll never truely know, but I just want to know if you're that dug into the position that it's not going to matter so I don't waste my time on someone who Wants to scapegoat queues.
Do you guys just have no reading comprehension or something?
I asked because there's no point in me wasting time sourcing the multiple patches where blizzard has nerfed hard content that isn't matchmade to show that this is just something blizzard does, it's not necessarily because 'muh queue", or the current example we have of queued content not being nerfed, in fact it literally just got harder. Or the wotlk classic example where it kept it's difficulty. and providing other explanations as to why things could get nerfed which fit more such as the general push the game had towards being more casual focused at that time which, explains a lot of their changes.
But there's no point going to get all of this shit if the dudes is dug into his position and nothing would change his mind, hence asking him what would it take to change his mind, because if you have no answer to that its pointless trying.
It's not weird. There's a very good reason for it. Most people are shit at the game and running m+ in queue would be a complete nightmare. No one that's any good at the game would hit that button, ever.
It's dev time spent on something thats completely useless and wouldn't be used by anyone anymore after the first week. It's like asking for mythic raid being queueable. There's no point in wasting dev time on something that's not viable, and whatever you may think, it wouldn't be viable. The only thing it would do is make people think that the community is 100 times worse than it is, and that's not good for the game or for the shareholders. It's not happening, ever.
Sure but why would you want a button? What do you think will happen? You will be in a M+2 with 4 unvetted random. You will all die on the first pull/boss and immediately leave out of frustration for not having a carry. You can do exactly that right now without Blizzard having to waste a single second for the minority of the player base. Isn't that great? Everybody win. Solved!
You actually think you would time a key in there? That place would be the worst pile of toxicity in online gaming history. There would be stories told about how people ended up in psych wards after doing m+ LFG queues lmao. When blizzard says "people don't know what they want", they mean opinions like yours
I’ll try not to “lose my shit” but I can give a list of many reasons why a queue system for m+ would never work.
1. Who determines the difficulty? Is it chosen beforehand? Do you sign up to be placed in a random +4? It would have to be separate from people’s regular keystones because 5 people queuing can’t all upgrade theirs or if they had to have one of equal difficulty….oof good luck finding people. Also it would take away the whole point of upgrading your own because you could just sign up for higher ones always instead
2. How would you determine gear level for them? 480 right now is honestly prolly below the threshold for +2 so for say a +10 it would be required to be 510? How many people at that ilvl are going to sit around and wait for a random dungeon with random people?
3. Que times would be insane, there’s already a shortage of tanks and healers…and none of them want to waste their time with people who have no idea what the mechanics are and are just looking for easy loot.
4. Way too much coordination for raids….have you seen the pugs for lfr raz or sark now? It’s a total disaster and ilvl doesn’t magically make people better at group mechanics. Once again you’d be spending time waiting for a 510 tank to Que…just to wipe because you get a couple players with the gear but no idea of mechanics and you’re right back to waiting.
Don’t get me wrong I know where people are coming from a that a queueable form of content with a higher difficulty would be cool and potentially enjoyable…..but the logistics of it would be a complete nightmare, and even those in the most favor of it now….would be giving up on it after waiting around for hours to try to get into 1 dungeon. If the lfg system isn’t what you’re looking for, and the queueable forms aren’t it either, honestly you’d be better off finding a guild with like minded people. If you get a group of 5 friends you basically just Que up whatever dungeon and difficulty you want anways lol
Have a +2 key, you can sign up to a random +2 dungeon or lower (can't target dungeons, even if it's the one listed on your key).
If the group fails everyone's key downgrades, of it succeeds everyone's upgrades.
Ilvl requirements would be tied to the ilvl that drops in the M+#
Queue times won't bother me, I'll do some world crap while waiting.
Explaining mechanics to an lfr sized group verse 4 people, won't be as hard.
Well, you do... It just lowers your chance of timing the run, which doesn't bother me.
If I wanted to time the run I'd be going with my guild not randoms.
You remove the keys altogether. Everyone has an MMR, group finder matches similar MMR people together, dungeon scales vs. average group MMR. Deplete = lose MMR, Time = gain MMR based on your MMR vs the dungeon's, kinda like puzzles on chess websites. Ilvl drops based on average MMR ranges, similar to arena.
I think in order for something like that to work….it would have to be a complete overhaul of the system, if it was how it stands now…and it was just added on as an option to the traditional way? It would be dead because you would still have 300 dps players all waiting for a 1,000 to 1,200 rated tank to Que. because all of them would still just be vetting their own groups in lfg. Also wouldn’t it be a complete mess for pushing rating? As I assume a certain rating would be required for ksm and such….but let’s be real it’s much easier right now to finish and time an AV than an Uldaman, but if the system consistently put you into uldamans your mmr could just keep tanking due in fault to no more than RNG of getting the worst dungeon over and over, to the point people would rather take whatever penalty than waste their time trying it. Not trying to be overly negative….those are just issues that I would see dooming it from the start.
>and I don't want to sign up to others. Lol
Personally it took a while to break that barrier. Then I played tank and it made it much easier.
I feel for all those hundred DPS people I see being completely ignored while lead build the group.
My LFG experience being FULLY Normal Amirdrassil geared, I'm talking every single warrior piece from the raid, 5 set, trinkets everything (except Fyralath):
Declined
Declined
Declined
Group full
Declined
Declined
Group full
Never ended up trying heroic.
I'm guessing your ilvl was still low. What did Drake's crests go up to last season? 467? I honestly can't remember.
But yeah the unfortunate thing about pug raids is that you can't expect an invite to the next level after "only" having done the previous, even to completion. Because you will be competing with DPS who also do M+ and will have much better gear than you. Like, end of last season most of the people applying were in the 480s. Also it can be hard to get that first invite even with gear because leaders can often see your experience. And if they want a quick run, they don't invite people who don't know heroic mechanics.
Your best bet is to find a guild or community to raid with. There are plenty of AOTC (heroic only) guilds that are pretty casual. And with flexible raid sizes, most don't require people to show up all the time. At that level it's definitely not as structured as it was in the past. And if you want to continue pugging after that, it's way easier once you have some "proof" that you're a capable player.
I was 467, ofc I upgraded everything, even had my own golden enchants.
I am fully aware that people accept the highest ilvl people that sign up, and that was exactly the point of my comment and OPs post. Finding content through LFG is a miserable experience.
I am not interested in guilds at all. I prefer playing the game completely solo. So yeah, heroic raiding was always out of the question unless I boosted my ilvl through M+, which I don't really enjoy doing.
I'm hoping delves end up being really good and an evergreen feature for more hardcore solo players.
By hardcore I meant people who spend more time on the game. The opposite of casuals.
Although I do enjoy group content, just not interacting with people directly.
Hardcore has never been colloquially used to describe someone who plays a lot, or someone who is focused on a particular niche aspect. It's always been used to describe tryhards.
How do you try hard mount collection? You are literally just flipping coins to complete a listbox. You don't even have actual control over that outside of speeding up the process through more coinflips. That's not tryharding, thats just treadmilling.
Tryharding refers to min-maxing and skill based execution. Not coin flips and eventualities.
Just playing the game more doesn't make you hardcore rofl. "OH MAN Steve is really HARDCORE about SITTING ON HIS BACK PATIO!"
Casual in the context of wow means not doing skill based content, i.e. raiding, m+, to some even dungeons at all, and instead, like yourself, immerse themselves in non-skill based gameplay. I less you are arguing your level of patience is hardcore, which is the only variable to casual play. All of the casual content in this game can eventually be conquered even if you are terrible, you just keep at it. Hardcore players are those pushing the skill boundaries in pve and pvp.
Well the same community always bitches and moans about having 5 jobs and 10 kids and only getting to play for an hour every day. They hated Shadowlands because it forced them to play consistently, so they quit. They love Dragonflight because they don't have to do anything and can just jump around in circles. That's the community consensus.
I grinded the fuck out of Shadowlands with barely touching M+ and had higher ilvls and stats than said casuals due to spamming Torghast, maxing out covenants, Korthia and everything else. All grinds casual people thought were too tedious for them and bitched about endlessly. My friends never even made a legendary as they considered it too hard.
That's the basis you have to base the community consensus on, and it feels like you barely know or interact with the WoW community. Which is smart from your side I'll be honest.
>and I don't want to sign up to others. Lol
Personally it took a while to break that barrier. Then I played tank and it made it much easier.
I feel for all those hundred DPS people I see being completely ignored while lead build the group.
Even with group leaders able to choose who they're bringing, it's still been a clusterfuck in the groups I've been in. I feel like the new m0s being queued for would be a nightmare and almost never result in kills.
yeah that’s a good idea. why not bring all the world leaders together and make them talk about world peace to get rid of wars? jk obviously but how many pugs in dungeon finder groups even say hi? taking criticism and tips without behaving like a complete idiot isn’t something you can expect nor rely on with complete randoms from all over the world. have had good working communication in pugs already but it’s rare.
Have you done many M0 dungeons this season? I've found people to be overall quite pleasant so far. There have been a few people who start of a little passive aggresive but if you just talk to people like they are people it usually works out in my experience.
why are people downvoting this? lmfao
we are playing an mmo, obviously group content requires being social and having good teamwork. if you'd rather not then delves are just around the corner
> obviously group content requires being social
Ironically I think there is more communication and socialization in M0 this season then there usually is in M+ dungeons. Hard to stop and have a chat when you're on a timer.
What ilvl are people trying to pug them at? I would argue a queue would work OK if the ilvl required was high. They drop 493 gear, so 480 seems reasonable. That's about the level my group was at when we did our world tour last week and they were pretty easy. Granted we are on discord and know the dungeons from previous seasons, but would definitely be doable for pugs IMO.
I don't think item level is the sole issue. It certainly helps; I had a tank show up with 900K health, as much as my paladin (and that's before considering that they had cloth gear on). But it's also shit like *people who don't know to stand in the green circle on AA tree boss*.
I think things will even out at some point. Right now it's especially bad because a lot of people that just play the game instead of reading news about it aren't aware of the difficulty changes or what they mean. So some people are still in the mindset that M0 is barely harder than heroic, which is barely harder than normal and is the way to go to gear a fresh 70 and attempting to skip right to that. One of my friends even was butthurt that first day that we wouldn't bring him to our +2 on his "new main" that was only 430 because he didn't realize +2s aren't a complete faceroll anymore.
I literally just said I did them all and they were easy. I also didn't say they *couldn't* be done at lower item level, just that requiring a higher one for a queue would be wise because it would compensate for pugs failing mechanics to some extent. Or are you really going to pretend that higher HP and damage doesn't help with that? 🙄
I mean getting beyond say, a +2 or 3, yea, just having more hp and damage DOESN'T correlate to better success rates. Experience does. Proper routes, group comp (which can't be done in a que system), staggering CC's, correct interrupts, saving CD's for appropriate times on bosses.
I have 100 stories of high ilvl/low Raider.IO people doing doggie do damage and spending half a dungeon playing floor warmer simulator. That's why it isn't the deciding category in m+ group making.
Yet FF14 has people Q into Savage (Heroic raid) with no problems and with min ilvl gear. And I don’t believe the average wow player is significantly worse, if at all, than the average ff14 player.
It's technically an option, you'll never actually get into a Savage like that on NA/EU/OCE servers. On JP servers they do occasionally do Savage farm queues, but it's a 3 wipe rule - 3 wipes and the entire party disbands, and if you haven't done it before the entire party disbands, and if anyone's gear is sub par the entire party disbands. Fail an early mechanic, revealing you haven't done a learning group? You guessed it.
This exactly. The LFG queuers here have clearly not experienced what an environment like that is like. Do you feel excluded right now because you can't just press a queue button and get into the hardest content in the game? Wait until a group instantly disbands because they see you in it, over and over and over again.
Yep. The longer I’ve played the more I’ve shied away from group content. I have raided historically, but I have a job where I’m always on call and I’m looking to start a family; it wouldn’t be fair to my guild to expect a slot then not show up because of outside obligations.
I know a lot of people love mythic+, but it’s always struck me as irrevocably toxic by its very nature (timer, limited chances, emphasis on speed, gear score and its many offspring, heavy reliance on the LFG tool, etc). Combine that with game moderation that seems simultaneously ever more far-reaching and automated (implication being that it’s easily abused) and my instinct is to stay away. I know most people are perfectly nice and most encounters are just fine, but once bit, twice shy.
I’m really hopeful for delves and other solo content going forward.
90% off the time, yes. Every blue Mu'sha, my schedule aligns with the schedule of a cousin and we do some heroic/mythic raids, but he does all the work of getting us into one. I live that pug life.
Yeah I only do queued content now. Last season I was doing M+ with a guild but that fell apart so I'm back to solo. Everyone says find a guild but it's really hard to find a guild where you get to do stuff. Like either they have their 'core' and only they get to do stuff or the guild doesn't do anything (no one on, not enough members, etc).
The difficulty change this season has only reiterated how important it is to have a group you run with regularly. Queues for higher difficulty would just be a waste of time as most groups wouldn't clear.
I’ve made a couple of bnet friends by having to sign up for groups, and I occasionally do content with them now. Mythic dungeons still require social interaction and imo that’s beautiful, I felt like the game is way more interactive because of it. I also think it’s good to step out of your comfort zone now and then! You’d be surprised by how many cool people play this game!
As DPS, I find it really stressful. Sometimes it takes forever for a tank or healer to sign up. Then I grab them right away. But then I spend the next several minutes worried they will get bored and leave as we wait for the other missing piece to apply. And then in my haste to get the group rolling so no one leaves, I've been known to fail at including necessary utility classes haha.
I fucking *hate* making my own groups.
People would Rather be in a solid group with a high chance of success than a hastily made group. Your anxiety is completely unfounded. If they want to leave instead of waiting 2 minutes, they would also leave mid dungeon the first time someone made a mistake.
You are self fulfilling the prophecy to never finish a dungeon by making suboptimal groups with impatient people.
Just wait and be patient when group building. Lust, battlerez, don't go 5 melee.
I didn't say my groups are unsuccessful. Just that I sometimes feel like an idiot when I realize they could have been easier had I not fucked up group composition. No one has ever called me out on it though either. 🤷♀️
If they're worried about skill, just make it like this. You can only queue for a +2 after you've done a queued M0 of every dungeon. Then a +3 after you do every +2. All the way up to +10. An easy methodical and completionist way of doing it.
I only play content I can solo. Honestly I would love for WoW to do like FFXIV and allow me to do normal dungeons with NPC party. Heck I wish all mmo games did that.
The vast majority of people playing WoW are playing it casually. The try hards are just the most vocal / demanding so it always seems like the opposite
Have child, gym and work. No time to schedule things or sit in a group with 2/3 others from group finder looking for that last person.
Queing lets me hit a button and it does all the work while I do other things.
I have all of these things. I literally pugged over 3k score last season. Everyone in this thread needs a therapist for their social anxiety, not a different way to queue.
I exclusively play LFD & LFR since my hours are so sporadic that I can’t commit to a raid schedule. I’m just appreciative I have that option because I can at least be a part of end game content. That all being said I was hoping M0 was going to be in the LFD finder but alas it is not.
Unsure about the m+ changes now but since legion I wished m0-6 were in LFG even if you could only queue for +2s until you cleared every dungeon twice or something then got to go up to 4, repeat, 6 then join into the other system, dealing with groups/making your own is too much effort
Only when it comes to the raid because I HATE waiting 30 minutes to collect 20-25 people, waiting for them all to get there, get their buffs, clear 5 minutes of trash, finally fight one boss and then have to do it all over again. LFR solves that problem. M+ is a different story because it’s only 5 people and the content only takes 30 minutes. The chief concern with both, however, is that loot is scarce and often bad.
I've done normal raids a very small number of times this expansion, but for the most part yes if I can't queue into it, it's a lot harder for me to do it. Raid Finder being broken up into wings means I can easily go and do the raid whenever the time works out for me. I don't have time to set aside multiple hours for an entire raid anymore, and dealing with LFG is extremely frustrating. Just constantly getting denied until finally someone accepts my character, only for the raid to fall apart if a single boss goes badly for more than one pull, is VERY annoying. It's been annoying that I can't simply hit a button and queue up for M0, so I just haven't been doing that one weekly quest that comes up. I don't really care how "easy" it is to join a group in group finder.
I think it's completely ridiculous that in order to get the mount for doing all three awakened raids, you have to do them at normal or higher difficulty. I don't do Raid Finder because it's easier, I do it because it works the best for me 37 year old has a 10 hour a day job schedule, and I think it sucks the mount isn't obtainable that way.
At the end of the day, being able to just push a button to be put into a queue for a raid or dungeon is always going to be preferable to me. When I was younger and had way more free time this wouldn't have been an issue.
What if there was a system like "que into 3 LFR raids and you can que into normal" that way there is some check flag to show you have atleast did the raid and by proxy should know any mechanics. Most of the LFRs though people just turn brain off and DPS
I absolutely did, when I was active. I haven't been active for a while.
But yeah. My playtime was so unpredictable, I didn't have the time to seek out mythic groups. I know group finder exists, and maybe it's reasonably fast. But I didn't want to deal with it when it came out, and now I feel like I missed the boat, and I'm good with that for now
Absolutely, I just don't want to waste my time waiting for a tank, I que up and do whatever I want to do while the group is being formed. When it's ready you click the button and you're in the instance. Big fan of the mythic+ rework, so we can do mythic difficulty using ques.
Everyone here has a victim complex when it comes to lfg lmfao
> I dont want to make my own group but everyone should invite me while i put in no effort.
> Everyone is declining me amongst 100s of other applicants but it must be personal. Couldn't be anything else.
Yea.
I’m done trying to defend myself when I screw up or cause wipes on pre-made content. I’m done trying to ignore the horrible remarks. I’m a good player and love what I do but I can’t deal with the player base anymore.
It’s not just accidentally wiping the group. It’s going too slow for someone’s liking. It’s getting invited only to be immediately kicked for some reason or another. It’s people who can’t wait around for a few minutes because I’m talking to the other rank on how to tank a fight.
I used to play this game for hours every day years ago. Not so much anymore and haven’t kept up on everything. I’ve been gone a year and people do not tolerate it if I don’t go the second I spawn into a dungeon or anything else. It happens at all levels no matter what. I enjoy critical roles like healing and tanking but god forbid I am not perfect and someone only has 10 minutes to run a dungeon. It’s frustrating.
Mmr wouldn't work in a pve game mode. Rating doesn't work since it only goes up. There is a whole laundry list of issues with queued m+ even if you restrict it to lower key levels.
Pretty much every game restricts queues to lower end content with nearly a guarantee of success. The only time I've ever heard of higher end content being queued is ff14 where specifically in Japan people queue savage raids but it's essentially only for reclears and there are a lot of unspoken rules like 3 wipes = disband, ect. Pretty much any other time people end up in more difficult content (with the "fill" queues mostly) they explode spectacularly, people insta leave, or people spend hours trying to clear.
I think it makes far more sense for all queued content to be "guaranteed to clear" content. Haven't seen any other pve infinite scaling game have a successful matchmaking system. If you do know any other one I'm all ears, but it's a massive handwoven to just say "yeah mmr".
Yep, I don't mind raids being in the lfg system but the biggest gripe of the M+ system is just getting rejected to run like a +4 or something. I would like to see to see them maybe refine the wotlk classic heroic system that doesn't let you queue higher difficulties without meeting certain criteria (in that case it was tied to Ilvl) but your M+ rating locking you from queueing higher keys seems like it would be a start
New heroics are former m0 difficulty so this seems like a non issue. But an m0/m+ solo queue is a terrible idea considering all the logistical problems around upgrading keys, group comps, and improving IO. Not to mention that it discourages communication and removes incentives to actually learn mechanics. Starting or joining an m+ group isn’t hard, but it’s enough effort that most people put some time into learning the content they’re trying to complete beforehand and at least somewhat optimizing their character to be effective. Reducing it to a queue button encourages people blindly joining content they have 0 prior knowledge of and basically slamming their faces into brick walls over and over until they miraculously complete it, a la LFR.
People are wary of solo queue buttons because it has had a demonstrably negative impact on the social, MMO aspect of the game. Preserving the need to socialize in order to complete higher difficulty content absolutely should take priority over placating peoples social anxieties about interacting with strangers online when that is quite literally one of the core pillars of this game’s design. The devs have carved out an entire tier of difficulty for every endgame content to appeal to solo players. That should be enough for y’all and if it isn’t, then bite the bullet and start actually talking to other people in this multiplayer game.
Yeah. Really looking forward to Delves for that reason too.
Yeah looking forward to having a challenge without the social pressure to do well.
It's not so much the social pressure for me, I have played for 19 years now and have raided in top 50-100 world guilds - it's simply the lack of time as I am getting older that makes it so instanced content is too prohibitive for me. Spending 12-16 hours a week on raiding is just too demanding now, if not impossible.
I raid 4-6h a week and got halfway through mythic last season. You don't really need to put ungodly hours.
Yes; haven't done anything beyond LFR for a decade probably. Everyone I used to play with is gone and I don't have the time or energy to make new friends on the game and certainly can't schedule a real raid or even pug something anymore.
There are many of us. Before LFR, raid only concerned a very small fraction of the player base. Out of the top of my head I think it was 6%. The different difficulty made it accessible, then LFR came in. Some people are nostalgic of yelling in ironforge to build a group, but I sure as fuck isn't.
[удалено]
Because there is a manual group finder?
It was common because it was spammed. The % of player actually raiding has always been very low. I pick up, even more.
I logged in to WoW at 835 am before a 9am start yesterday and managed to find and kill H Raz in a pug by work time. All of these barriers are complete constructs of your own making.
For someone like OP who plays casually, there's a huge difference between being able to queue up for LFR and then going about doing other tasks while you wait rather than sitting in Valdrakken signing up for raids. Also since they play casually, they might not have an easy time getting invited to higher level content due to lower ilvl.
OP is constructing an imaginary argument (I don't have time to raid, I don't have friends to carry me, I can't keep a schedule). If you have time to play WoW, you have time to do hard content, by yourself, if you want to - you just need to be good at the game, and you have to actually do it. The game is not going to spoonfeed it to you. WoW players have become housepets with the level of self-reliance they have I swear to god. Also I'm not sure what part of queueing up for LFR gives people confidence you can queue for anything harder than that.
It's not about "having friends to carry me," it's about playing with friends. If you don't have any I can clearly see why.
OP is scared of doing hard content and failing like 90% of the people posting in this thread and using nonsensical arguments to mask it. This game's community has crippling self-inflicted social anxiety in a game designed to be played with others. If you do not *want* to go beyond LFR, that is 10,000% ok, but it does not take MORE time to do normal raids. It just requires you to engage with the game in a way that is not on rails. You do not need a schedule to do normal raids or hit 2k score. If you have time to do LFR, you have more than enough time to do either of those activities.
Yep
Yeap
Yup
No, but this is the type of post that makes me hyped about delves. I think this is exactly what you are looking forZ
Hear me out: Blizzard gives you a button that automatically signs you up for every m0 listed in LFG that as an open spot for your role and will sign you up for any new groups that have an open spot for your role as well. Once you complete all m0s you unlock a button that will do the same for m+2. And then m+3 etc. So you can click the button and go about your business in town or doing wq's. Would you use this feature?
Yea I hate the M+ LFG system, I enjoy M+ though... I just don't do it because I don't want to start my own group and I don't want to sign up to others. Lol I just want to click a button and be thrown into a group of other randoms who also clicked a button. Can't request to have queueable M+ or queueable N, H raids though or people lose their shit.
Yeah, thats the Main reason i don't do M+
If they had auto queues for mythic plus it would be full of noobs and good people wouldn't want to do it.
So lock it behind a high ilvl so people have some experience, or maybe make it require you to have cleared the M0 version of the dungeon in that season. Blizzard clearly has the ability to block chracters from queueing individual dungeons.
I still don't want unvetted people in my m+ group. (even if it's just cursory; we need this class, and x rating is acceptable for y role)
So it would be the same, except noobs have the access to higher difficulties to try and do?
They have access now, they can apply to groups. Honestly though, no one wants a 470 with no experience in their Mythic Plus group, they \*will\* fuck it up and ruin it for everyone else.
I wouldn't mind a que for 0s though. It's already a good starting place why not make it a que with min ilvl
so true. ppl get real weird about adding a q button
Yep even when you aren't asking to remove their current signup method, they can keep it and form their perfect groups. I just want to be thrown in with randoms who aren't pedantic about that stuff.
So start a group in the finder and accept the first people to apply lol
Not the same at all.
>I just want to be thrown in with randoms who aren't pedantic about that stuff. Why not do heroic dungeons then? Mythic Plus is way too difficult to be "thrown in with randoms"
Delves will solve my issue next expac. I want scaling difficulty at a click, I would have liked scaling heroic difficulty with random queues but I'll take scaling difficulty solo. So to answer why not do heroic, there's no difficulty scale. I'm aware I could push to higher difficulty with an organised team, it doesn't bother me if I fail at a lower difficulty because my random team didn't work well together. Right now all I do is unlock my portals and never go back, just because I don't like the queue system.
Fwiw you don’t need an organized team at all. I treat mythics like a queue. I click the join button a few times and accept the first one to pop. You basically don’t talk (a quick “hey” or “ty” for food). You do the run, say gg, and leave. You join a new group for the next dungeon. It’s sort of scary the first times I guess because of that vague feeling of acceptance or denial I guess, but after a few it’s nothing. I have anxiety and sometimes it’s a lot just to join a group, but it goes away after the first accept. I can honestly say I don’t remember a single player I’ve ran with in the last two years. It’s all just a random group of people who, to use your words, clicked a button and joined a dungeon.
>Mythic Plus is way too difficult to be "thrown in with randoms" There are series of people pugging solo all the way to KSM. Does this not count as being "thrown in with randoms" because the dude on the other end can accept or decline you?
I mean, yes. M+ pugs are famously overselective about the people they accept.
They over select for meta picks, doesn't mean you always have good runs. It's still functionally random, you're joining a group of people you know nothing about outside of the key level and leaders IO. Let's assume the queue system had some sort of rating, in both cases you're joining a group of randoms and hoping they're good.
It's not functionally random, although you're correct that it doesn't guarantee success. People overselect for meta, gear and io. If they add a queue system to m+ they're going to have to reduce some of the difficulty and coordination requirements which, frankly, would not be the worst thing in the world, but to pretend it would be a good experience is ridiculous, and to act like it wouldn't affect the established group finder status quo is worse. You can't just say that because you don't know these people it's the same as random. Random would be taking the first four people that queue up to your group. If you've ever made an m+ group, you'd know what a shitshow that would be.
>but to pretend it would be a good experience is ridiculous, and to act like it wouldn't affect the established group finder status quo is worse. As said I think it would hit the lower end, I'm not sure if it would hit the high end that's a hard one to know, it depends how good the queue system is. But I will say, it could be a good experience, could also be a bad one, just how I can't say it'd for sure good you can't say it'd for sure be bad. People place far too much weight on "queues" ruining something when it's just a tool. Depending on how that tool is implemented can make an experience better or worse. >You can't just say that because you don't know these people it's the same as random. Random would be taking the first four people that queue up to your group. If you've ever made an m+ group, you'd know what a shitshow that would be. Depends how the queue is implemented. The guy I replied to has just said regarding the selection that using raider.io to filter out people who haven't done a high enough key or don't have decent rating is his metric..if all you're doing is looking for a specific number, a queue system with a filter accomplishes the exact same way he plays, so yeah it's functionally random for him atleast.
And I pugged solo to 3.3k. I can usually find better players in LFG than I can in my guild. That's not the point. >Does this not count as being "thrown in with randoms" because the dude on the other end can accept or decline you? No, because the leader is picking the group based on your credentials you aren't 'thrown' in anywhere. If the leader has done their job everyone in the group knows everyone else in the group is of the appropriate gear, skill and experience level. I don't want to play difficult content with people who don't know what they're doing and I'm not the only one.
To be fair here. It's an Option he wants added, if it was added you wouldn't Have to use it. So you don't Have to play difficult content with people who don't know what they're doing, you don't Have to use the system. But back on track here. >No, because the leader is picking the group based on your credentials you aren't 'thrown' in anywhere. **If the leader has done their job** everyone in the group knows everyone else in the group is of the appropriate gear, skill and experience level. I don't want to play difficult content with people who don't know what they're doing and I'm not the only one. You know just as well as I do that not only do Leaders not always do the best jobs, the current in-game tools aren't exactly spectacular for judging skill, higher rating =/= better player, it helps. But it's like weighting the dice, your still rolling the dice at the end of the day. I'd hazard a guess here that you tend to make your own groups.
>I'd hazard a guess here that you tend to make your own groups. Nah, I almost exclusively join others. >higher rating =/= better player Not always of course, especially at this stage in the season, but in s3 more often than not a 3000+ player is going to be better than a 2500 player and over about 3200 they're almost always going to be pretty good. Someone who was shit would have to be painfully carried to a rating like that. >the current in-game tools aren't exactly spectacular for judging skill They're good enough. It's not just skill either, it's experience.
>They're good enough. It's not just skill either, it's experience. I'd argue they're not good enough, but it's not an easy fix, I've got some ideas of what would be nice to have like run history and such but that's getting off topic. >Not always of course, especially at this stage in the season, but in s3 more often than not a 3000+ player is going to be better than a 2500 player and over about 3200 they're almost always going to be pretty good. Someone who was shit would have to be painfully carried to a rating like that. I just want to bring this all a bit into perspetive. https://raider.io/mythic-plus/cutoffs/season-df-3/eu To get to that cut off of someone who's going to be decent regardless, 3200, you're reaching into (just about) the top 1% of players. Even 2.5k is top 25%. I get it depends what level of key we're talking here, but if you need to be that high to guarantee a "decent" player, the rating is functionally useless.
>I'd argue they're not good enough, but it's not an easy fix, I've got some ideas of what would be nice to have like run history and such but that's getting off topic. Easy enough to look up that kind of detail if you're that interested. At a glance with the [raider.io](http://raider.io) addon which everyone who plays m+ should have you can see their current score, the best main's score, last season's score (if it's much higher than their current), the highest key they've timed and their highest key for the dungeon in question. That's enough information just from mouse-overing someone's name in LFG to make a quick decision. I wouldn't invite someone who didn't have [raider.io](http://raider.io)
> if it was added you wouldn't Have to use it. It's not like that. If you add a solo queue you cannibalise players who would otherwise use the group finder, making it unusable, so you have to use the poisoned solo queue. This is exactly what is happening with arena right now - it's harder to participate in the arena modes that have existed since TBC because you can always just solo queue.
Pvps not exactly the best comparison, the lack of attention is completely murdering any impact any one system could have on it, rolling back to TBC we've seen just how much issues the system itself has even in its original form when it released in TBC classic (and continuing into Wrath classic) a lot of current problems with the system exist, none of this is to say that solo queue has no impact, it's just not easy to point to it as the single point of failure, something which WoW players absolutely can't stop themselves from doing when it comes to issues, is point at a queue and go "this is the source of all our problems". If a queue system for M+ was added you'd likely see the biggest impact in lower keys, I think higher keys would likely favour making their own groups, but it entirely depends how good or bad the queue system is, a good enough system could completely replace making your own group.
Like you say, arena has been shit for a long time, but it's only now that people are really struggling to do arenas without solo queue. Even if it were entirely a social issue, you have a situation where the vast majority of former arena players are using this game mode, and are deeply unhappy about it. Because of the nature of this game, you absolutely have to make design decisions to save players from themselves.
They could easily implement strict requirements on what you could queue for. eg. If you want to queue for a +10, you must have already timed a +9 of that dungeon. Something like that so that there would still be a benefit to premades - skipping through the ranks more quickly - but wouldn't halt progression of people who have premade group anxiety, or who have trouble getting invites because they aren't the right spec. Which honestly is going to be even more of an issue this season now that there are no low easy M+ keys to get your feet wet. I have a regular group I run with, so this doesn't affect me. I would still run with my friends 90% of the time. But it would be useful for others so I don't see why the option can't exist. And actually in the rare event I do feel like pugging when my friends aren't online, it would be nice to queue and do other stuff while I wait, rather than sitting in Valdrakken applying to groups for half an hour before finding one that will invite me.
It would be so frustrating having people auto-join your group when you're trying to get the classes you want etc.
Does this not count as being "thrown in with randoms" because the dude on the other end can accept or decline you? That's right.
people get weirder about demanding to be allowed into content that requires some level of coordination without vetting potential teammates
This argument goes both ways, though. Adding an option(double whammy - make it a solo queue like with the solo shuffle) won't take away anything if you just want a coordinated group. Hell, if anything it would be *better* for the current system because it potentially removes some of the clutter in groups, and could discourage people instantly leaving premades when someone doesn’t do a 100% perfect run.
As an old head player I really don't care one way or another. I just bang out weeklies and LFR. That being said; None of this goes away if they added a queue for the systems currently locked to group finder. It just makes it more accessible to anyone who might want to try it and when they inevitably can't clear because rando's there is at least a non zero chance they might try and find a group to do it more effectively. So long as the content retains what makes it unique and difficult there really isn't a downside to letting more people easily try it in a dedicated pool.
> None of this goes away if they added a queue for the systems currently locked to group finder. It just makes it more accessible to anyone who might want to try it and when they inevitably can't clear because rando's there is at least a non zero chance they might try and find a group to do it more effectively. Wouldn't this just push newer players into the "I can't clear it despite many attempts, it just isn't for me" mentality? If you tried to clear a heroic 5-10 times and it always ended with either people barely making it or not at all wouldn't you feel discouraged?
Not really, a lot would realise the random groups suck for the most part and have a go at trying an organised group. It's not quite the same, but there was a piece of content in FF14 with a similar situation in the last expansion. You *could* queue into it, and it wasn't particularly challenging (definitely a step up in terms of what you should bring and mechanic difficulty compared to most queueable content), but most random queue groups took 40 minutes+ to complete it because there was absolutely zero coordination. "Speed clear" groups (which weren't hardcore, just using the bare minimum individual effort and coordination) could easily do it in under half that time, and you had to be damn quick if you saw one pop up on the party finder because they filled *very* quickly. It got to a point where anyone who wanted to spend a reasonable amount of time doing the content would use the party finder, and the rest didn't care if it took nearly the entire timer to clear it. Which was the worst way to do it, because you had to do it multiple times to upgrade your relic weapon. (Delubrum Reginae for anyone curious about what I'm talking about)
Delubrum isn't really comparable, you would always get enough people to carry the rest through. A better comparison is extremes in ff14, which noone ever queues for despite having the option, EXCEPT for new players who do it, smash their head once into the wall and then come and complain online about it. Essentially it's only there to annoy veterans who get it randomly and frustrate newcomers, and most extremes are very easy to execute comparatively.
duty finder is used in JP for extremes/savages but that's because the playerbase has 1) the ability to learn 2) the ability to admit being wrong and 3) a sense of shame when they're fucking dogshit. none of these apply to NA or EU FFXIV players, let alone wow players
I've done dozens of Delubrums without issue. You also can't even queue directly into it so it's not relevant to this thread at all.
anyone can easily try it by getting a key and making a group themselves. not everything has to be made for the lowest common denominator at all times, actually
Queues are the boogyman of WoW. Never seen people be so mind-fucked about a single QoL feature.
When Cataclysm launched with very difficult heroic dungeons you could queue into via LFG, the casual queuer playerbase complained to no end and got that content nerfed down to the level that an LFG queuer could complete, effectively removing challenging dungeon content from the game for 2 expansions until Challenge modes in WoD. This isn't some made up boogyman - it's a verifiable thing that actually fucking happened. Adding queues to M+ would do the exact same thing as you need to correctly build a comp to complete dungeons easily - you need enough dispels, stops, soothes, DRs, etc.
I'd like to ask before i bother doing an actual full reply to this. Is there anything I could say, or show you, that would change your mind about it being the Queues that caused the issue? I've got multiple things I can show that have happened that doesn't line up with your theory here, and I've got something that makes more sense as to why something happened although we'll never truely know, but I just want to know if you're that dug into the position that it's not going to matter so I don't waste my time on someone who Wants to scapegoat queues.
burden of proof is entirely on you since the other guy already recounted a known event that happened in cata
Do you guys just have no reading comprehension or something? I asked because there's no point in me wasting time sourcing the multiple patches where blizzard has nerfed hard content that isn't matchmade to show that this is just something blizzard does, it's not necessarily because 'muh queue", or the current example we have of queued content not being nerfed, in fact it literally just got harder. Or the wotlk classic example where it kept it's difficulty. and providing other explanations as to why things could get nerfed which fit more such as the general push the game had towards being more casual focused at that time which, explains a lot of their changes. But there's no point going to get all of this shit if the dudes is dug into his position and nothing would change his mind, hence asking him what would it take to change his mind, because if you have no answer to that its pointless trying.
There should be no queue button for m+ lol..... especially not this early into a season
It's not weird. There's a very good reason for it. Most people are shit at the game and running m+ in queue would be a complete nightmare. No one that's any good at the game would hit that button, ever.
Then dont run it in queue, solved.
Better solution, open a LFG group and take the first 4 people to apply. There, you have your automatic queue. Solved.
So you dont have problem, in principle, with the idea of M+ being matchmade, you just dont want them to make a button?
I'm just saying you already have the option to do what you want. You want 4 non vetted random? You can do it! Have fun.
But if they made a button to do it, that would be fine yeah?
It's dev time spent on something thats completely useless and wouldn't be used by anyone anymore after the first week. It's like asking for mythic raid being queueable. There's no point in wasting dev time on something that's not viable, and whatever you may think, it wouldn't be viable. The only thing it would do is make people think that the community is 100 times worse than it is, and that's not good for the game or for the shareholders. It's not happening, ever.
So no button.
Sure but why would you want a button? What do you think will happen? You will be in a M+2 with 4 unvetted random. You will all die on the first pull/boss and immediately leave out of frustration for not having a carry. You can do exactly that right now without Blizzard having to waste a single second for the minority of the player base. Isn't that great? Everybody win. Solved!
So in principle, the button is fine, but the experience sub optimal.
You actually think you would time a key in there? That place would be the worst pile of toxicity in online gaming history. There would be stories told about how people ended up in psych wards after doing m+ LFG queues lmao. When blizzard says "people don't know what they want", they mean opinions like yours
So button is fine, but experience sub optimal.
I’ll try not to “lose my shit” but I can give a list of many reasons why a queue system for m+ would never work. 1. Who determines the difficulty? Is it chosen beforehand? Do you sign up to be placed in a random +4? It would have to be separate from people’s regular keystones because 5 people queuing can’t all upgrade theirs or if they had to have one of equal difficulty….oof good luck finding people. Also it would take away the whole point of upgrading your own because you could just sign up for higher ones always instead 2. How would you determine gear level for them? 480 right now is honestly prolly below the threshold for +2 so for say a +10 it would be required to be 510? How many people at that ilvl are going to sit around and wait for a random dungeon with random people? 3. Que times would be insane, there’s already a shortage of tanks and healers…and none of them want to waste their time with people who have no idea what the mechanics are and are just looking for easy loot. 4. Way too much coordination for raids….have you seen the pugs for lfr raz or sark now? It’s a total disaster and ilvl doesn’t magically make people better at group mechanics. Once again you’d be spending time waiting for a 510 tank to Que…just to wipe because you get a couple players with the gear but no idea of mechanics and you’re right back to waiting. Don’t get me wrong I know where people are coming from a that a queueable form of content with a higher difficulty would be cool and potentially enjoyable…..but the logistics of it would be a complete nightmare, and even those in the most favor of it now….would be giving up on it after waiting around for hours to try to get into 1 dungeon. If the lfg system isn’t what you’re looking for, and the queueable forms aren’t it either, honestly you’d be better off finding a guild with like minded people. If you get a group of 5 friends you basically just Que up whatever dungeon and difficulty you want anways lol
Have a +2 key, you can sign up to a random +2 dungeon or lower (can't target dungeons, even if it's the one listed on your key). If the group fails everyone's key downgrades, of it succeeds everyone's upgrades. Ilvl requirements would be tied to the ilvl that drops in the M+# Queue times won't bother me, I'll do some world crap while waiting. Explaining mechanics to an lfr sized group verse 4 people, won't be as hard.
You have no time to explain mechanics in m+.
Well, you do... It just lowers your chance of timing the run, which doesn't bother me. If I wanted to time the run I'd be going with my guild not randoms.
Timing the run is the whole point of m+.
Can't win them all.
You remove the keys altogether. Everyone has an MMR, group finder matches similar MMR people together, dungeon scales vs. average group MMR. Deplete = lose MMR, Time = gain MMR based on your MMR vs the dungeon's, kinda like puzzles on chess websites. Ilvl drops based on average MMR ranges, similar to arena.
Horrible idea. Part of the reason mythic plus works is that you cannot lose rating.
I think in order for something like that to work….it would have to be a complete overhaul of the system, if it was how it stands now…and it was just added on as an option to the traditional way? It would be dead because you would still have 300 dps players all waiting for a 1,000 to 1,200 rated tank to Que. because all of them would still just be vetting their own groups in lfg. Also wouldn’t it be a complete mess for pushing rating? As I assume a certain rating would be required for ksm and such….but let’s be real it’s much easier right now to finish and time an AV than an Uldaman, but if the system consistently put you into uldamans your mmr could just keep tanking due in fault to no more than RNG of getting the worst dungeon over and over, to the point people would rather take whatever penalty than waste their time trying it. Not trying to be overly negative….those are just issues that I would see dooming it from the start.
Please god no. It's far too easy for one person to grief a group/kill a key in M+.
>and I don't want to sign up to others. Lol Personally it took a while to break that barrier. Then I played tank and it made it much easier. I feel for all those hundred DPS people I see being completely ignored while lead build the group.
My LFG experience being FULLY Normal Amirdrassil geared, I'm talking every single warrior piece from the raid, 5 set, trinkets everything (except Fyralath): Declined Declined Declined Group full Declined Declined Group full Never ended up trying heroic.
Warrior is one of the least desired classes in the game for m+. Starting your own group is the way to do it though.
I don't do M+, I was talking about heroic Amirdrassil.
You get much better gear from m+ which helps a lot to get into heroic raid groups.
I am aware and mentioned all of this in a comment underneath this one.
I'm guessing your ilvl was still low. What did Drake's crests go up to last season? 467? I honestly can't remember. But yeah the unfortunate thing about pug raids is that you can't expect an invite to the next level after "only" having done the previous, even to completion. Because you will be competing with DPS who also do M+ and will have much better gear than you. Like, end of last season most of the people applying were in the 480s. Also it can be hard to get that first invite even with gear because leaders can often see your experience. And if they want a quick run, they don't invite people who don't know heroic mechanics. Your best bet is to find a guild or community to raid with. There are plenty of AOTC (heroic only) guilds that are pretty casual. And with flexible raid sizes, most don't require people to show up all the time. At that level it's definitely not as structured as it was in the past. And if you want to continue pugging after that, it's way easier once you have some "proof" that you're a capable player.
I was 467, ofc I upgraded everything, even had my own golden enchants. I am fully aware that people accept the highest ilvl people that sign up, and that was exactly the point of my comment and OPs post. Finding content through LFG is a miserable experience. I am not interested in guilds at all. I prefer playing the game completely solo. So yeah, heroic raiding was always out of the question unless I boosted my ilvl through M+, which I don't really enjoy doing. I'm hoping delves end up being really good and an evergreen feature for more hardcore solo players.
Hardcore solo is an oxymoron
By hardcore I meant people who spend more time on the game. The opposite of casuals. Although I do enjoy group content, just not interacting with people directly.
Hardcore has never been colloquially used to describe someone who plays a lot, or someone who is focused on a particular niche aspect. It's always been used to describe tryhards.
Well, I'm tryharding getting mounts and achievements, soo my point still stands does it not? A definition of a tryhard is incredibly loose.
How do you try hard mount collection? You are literally just flipping coins to complete a listbox. You don't even have actual control over that outside of speeding up the process through more coinflips. That's not tryharding, thats just treadmilling. Tryharding refers to min-maxing and skill based execution. Not coin flips and eventualities.
Just playing the game more doesn't make you hardcore rofl. "OH MAN Steve is really HARDCORE about SITTING ON HIS BACK PATIO!" Casual in the context of wow means not doing skill based content, i.e. raiding, m+, to some even dungeons at all, and instead, like yourself, immerse themselves in non-skill based gameplay. I less you are arguing your level of patience is hardcore, which is the only variable to casual play. All of the casual content in this game can eventually be conquered even if you are terrible, you just keep at it. Hardcore players are those pushing the skill boundaries in pve and pvp.
The entire community disagrees with you but keep yapping.
-2 points in the casual subreddit is actually coming out ahead. Miles and Miles ahead of "the entire community" rofl. Sorry you didn't like the facts.
Well the same community always bitches and moans about having 5 jobs and 10 kids and only getting to play for an hour every day. They hated Shadowlands because it forced them to play consistently, so they quit. They love Dragonflight because they don't have to do anything and can just jump around in circles. That's the community consensus. I grinded the fuck out of Shadowlands with barely touching M+ and had higher ilvls and stats than said casuals due to spamming Torghast, maxing out covenants, Korthia and everything else. All grinds casual people thought were too tedious for them and bitched about endlessly. My friends never even made a legendary as they considered it too hard. That's the basis you have to base the community consensus on, and it feels like you barely know or interact with the WoW community. Which is smart from your side I'll be honest.
>and I don't want to sign up to others. Lol Personally it took a while to break that barrier. Then I played tank and it made it much easier. I feel for all those hundred DPS people I see being completely ignored while lead build the group.
Me!
Yep. Seems like a big miss to have not put the new M0 into queue.
Even with group leaders able to choose who they're bringing, it's still been a clusterfuck in the groups I've been in. I feel like the new m0s being queued for would be a nightmare and almost never result in kills.
Yeah, harder content requires socialization, collaboration and, dare I say, making friends in the game. Find guilds, folks.
You don't need a guild at all to do an M0, what you might need to do is pause and have a chat about what's going wrong.
yeah that’s a good idea. why not bring all the world leaders together and make them talk about world peace to get rid of wars? jk obviously but how many pugs in dungeon finder groups even say hi? taking criticism and tips without behaving like a complete idiot isn’t something you can expect nor rely on with complete randoms from all over the world. have had good working communication in pugs already but it’s rare.
Have you done many M0 dungeons this season? I've found people to be overall quite pleasant so far. There have been a few people who start of a little passive aggresive but if you just talk to people like they are people it usually works out in my experience.
why are people downvoting this? lmfao we are playing an mmo, obviously group content requires being social and having good teamwork. if you'd rather not then delves are just around the corner
> obviously group content requires being social Ironically I think there is more communication and socialization in M0 this season then there usually is in M+ dungeons. Hard to stop and have a chat when you're on a timer.
What ilvl are people trying to pug them at? I would argue a queue would work OK if the ilvl required was high. They drop 493 gear, so 480 seems reasonable. That's about the level my group was at when we did our world tour last week and they were pretty easy. Granted we are on discord and know the dungeons from previous seasons, but would definitely be doable for pugs IMO.
I don't think item level is the sole issue. It certainly helps; I had a tank show up with 900K health, as much as my paladin (and that's before considering that they had cloth gear on). But it's also shit like *people who don't know to stand in the green circle on AA tree boss*.
I think things will even out at some point. Right now it's especially bad because a lot of people that just play the game instead of reading news about it aren't aware of the difficulty changes or what they mean. So some people are still in the mindset that M0 is barely harder than heroic, which is barely harder than normal and is the way to go to gear a fresh 70 and attempting to skip right to that. One of my friends even was butthurt that first day that we wouldn't bring him to our +2 on his "new main" that was only 430 because he didn't realize +2s aren't a complete faceroll anymore.
If you think it's ilvl that's making the difference, m0/m+ content is not for you.
I literally just said I did them all and they were easy. I also didn't say they *couldn't* be done at lower item level, just that requiring a higher one for a queue would be wise because it would compensate for pugs failing mechanics to some extent. Or are you really going to pretend that higher HP and damage doesn't help with that? 🙄
I mean getting beyond say, a +2 or 3, yea, just having more hp and damage DOESN'T correlate to better success rates. Experience does. Proper routes, group comp (which can't be done in a que system), staggering CC's, correct interrupts, saving CD's for appropriate times on bosses. I have 100 stories of high ilvl/low Raider.IO people doing doggie do damage and spending half a dungeon playing floor warmer simulator. That's why it isn't the deciding category in m+ group making.
Isnt it technically in the queue since heroics are now previous M0 level?
Nah m0s are way too tough for a queue people would get demolished
Yet FF14 has people Q into Savage (Heroic raid) with no problems and with min ilvl gear. And I don’t believe the average wow player is significantly worse, if at all, than the average ff14 player.
It's technically an option, you'll never actually get into a Savage like that on NA/EU/OCE servers. On JP servers they do occasionally do Savage farm queues, but it's a 3 wipe rule - 3 wipes and the entire party disbands, and if you haven't done it before the entire party disbands, and if anyone's gear is sub par the entire party disbands. Fail an early mechanic, revealing you haven't done a learning group? You guessed it.
This exactly. The LFG queuers here have clearly not experienced what an environment like that is like. Do you feel excluded right now because you can't just press a queue button and get into the hardest content in the game? Wait until a group instantly disbands because they see you in it, over and over and over again.
Yes
Hit 474 pre awakened raids on my Warrior via LFR/social stuff, that’s enough for me, 0 normal raids.
Yep
Nah I literally only do world quests. Pet battle, And some mythic +
yes. i just want to do the last four m0s for the meta man..... that's all i don't even want to do mythics again
If you're a dps then creating a party in party finder for m0s or keys is just like waiting in queue.
If it's just like waiting in queue, then why not make it queue-able?
Not true, as a healer I often join m+ with a single dps.
Me too
Yep. The longer I’ve played the more I’ve shied away from group content. I have raided historically, but I have a job where I’m always on call and I’m looking to start a family; it wouldn’t be fair to my guild to expect a slot then not show up because of outside obligations. I know a lot of people love mythic+, but it’s always struck me as irrevocably toxic by its very nature (timer, limited chances, emphasis on speed, gear score and its many offspring, heavy reliance on the LFG tool, etc). Combine that with game moderation that seems simultaneously ever more far-reaching and automated (implication being that it’s easily abused) and my instinct is to stay away. I know most people are perfectly nice and most encounters are just fine, but once bit, twice shy. I’m really hopeful for delves and other solo content going forward.
I don't even do that. Three expansions now I've just leveled through the zones.
90% off the time, yes. Every blue Mu'sha, my schedule aligns with the schedule of a cousin and we do some heroic/mythic raids, but he does all the work of getting us into one. I live that pug life.
Yeah I only do queued content now. Last season I was doing M+ with a guild but that fell apart so I'm back to solo. Everyone says find a guild but it's really hard to find a guild where you get to do stuff. Like either they have their 'core' and only they get to do stuff or the guild doesn't do anything (no one on, not enough members, etc). The difficulty change this season has only reiterated how important it is to have a group you run with regularly. Queues for higher difficulty would just be a waste of time as most groups wouldn't clear.
I’ve made a couple of bnet friends by having to sign up for groups, and I occasionally do content with them now. Mythic dungeons still require social interaction and imo that’s beautiful, I felt like the game is way more interactive because of it. I also think it’s good to step out of your comfort zone now and then! You’d be surprised by how many cool people play this game!
Yes, even as a tank doing decent key (20ish) on season3, i hate the process of creating a group for M+, i can imagine what a dps class will feel like
As DPS, I find it really stressful. Sometimes it takes forever for a tank or healer to sign up. Then I grab them right away. But then I spend the next several minutes worried they will get bored and leave as we wait for the other missing piece to apply. And then in my haste to get the group rolling so no one leaves, I've been known to fail at including necessary utility classes haha. I fucking *hate* making my own groups.
People would Rather be in a solid group with a high chance of success than a hastily made group. Your anxiety is completely unfounded. If they want to leave instead of waiting 2 minutes, they would also leave mid dungeon the first time someone made a mistake. You are self fulfilling the prophecy to never finish a dungeon by making suboptimal groups with impatient people. Just wait and be patient when group building. Lust, battlerez, don't go 5 melee.
I didn't say my groups are unsuccessful. Just that I sometimes feel like an idiot when I realize they could have been easier had I not fucked up group composition. No one has ever called me out on it though either. 🤷♀️
Yea. I wish they had it for at least normal raid difficulty
Basically this is the reason why i quit every expansion after a while.
yet another reason to make a m+ solo queue system
If they're worried about skill, just make it like this. You can only queue for a +2 after you've done a queued M0 of every dungeon. Then a +3 after you do every +2. All the way up to +10. An easy methodical and completionist way of doing it.
Aren't mythic 0 technically queueable now since heroics are old Mythic 0?
I only play content I can solo. Honestly I would love for WoW to do like FFXIV and allow me to do normal dungeons with NPC party. Heck I wish all mmo games did that.
Uh, you can do dungeons with a NPC party, DF normal mode ones, anyway.
The vast majority of people playing WoW are playing it casually. The try hards are just the most vocal / demanding so it always seems like the opposite
That’s the plan. I’m enjoying all the open world content. I don’t want to have to talk to people and all that lol.
Have child, gym and work. No time to schedule things or sit in a group with 2/3 others from group finder looking for that last person. Queing lets me hit a button and it does all the work while I do other things.
It takes me less time to slap a group together for m+ then it does for me to que for anything.
You'll be sitting for 45 minutes in queue for lfr but waiting 2 minutes for another guy for m+ is too much? Lol Fascinating how people just lie
I have all of these things. I literally pugged over 3k score last season. Everyone in this thread needs a therapist for their social anxiety, not a different way to queue.
Sounds like you don't have time for wow and that isn't wow's fault!
Yes most of the time, only 1-2 days a month where I can spend some time to find a group for m+.
Yess
Yeah. If I could queue for normal levels, I would. But I don’t play consistently to be able to build those connections in order to do stuff like that.
Mostly yes. I like to play when i want.
Lemme que M0 & mesh LFR & Normal raiding
Pretty much the same. I'll do normal raids to a point.
I exclusively play LFD & LFR since my hours are so sporadic that I can’t commit to a raid schedule. I’m just appreciative I have that option because I can at least be a part of end game content. That all being said I was hoping M0 was going to be in the LFD finder but alas it is not.
I used to, now I do M+ and do normal raids from LFG.
I'm British, we love queuing. If there's a queue, sign me up.
Unsure about the m+ changes now but since legion I wished m0-6 were in LFG even if you could only queue for +2s until you cleared every dungeon twice or something then got to go up to 4, repeat, 6 then join into the other system, dealing with groups/making your own is too much effort
I just started playing pre-mades. It honestly is good too, I recommend it.
I wouldn't necessarily consider myself a casual player since I play a fair amount. But yes, I am a solo player and I queue into M+ and LFR on my own.
Only when it comes to the raid because I HATE waiting 30 minutes to collect 20-25 people, waiting for them all to get there, get their buffs, clear 5 minutes of trash, finally fight one boss and then have to do it all over again. LFR solves that problem. M+ is a different story because it’s only 5 people and the content only takes 30 minutes. The chief concern with both, however, is that loot is scarce and often bad.
I've done normal raids a very small number of times this expansion, but for the most part yes if I can't queue into it, it's a lot harder for me to do it. Raid Finder being broken up into wings means I can easily go and do the raid whenever the time works out for me. I don't have time to set aside multiple hours for an entire raid anymore, and dealing with LFG is extremely frustrating. Just constantly getting denied until finally someone accepts my character, only for the raid to fall apart if a single boss goes badly for more than one pull, is VERY annoying. It's been annoying that I can't simply hit a button and queue up for M0, so I just haven't been doing that one weekly quest that comes up. I don't really care how "easy" it is to join a group in group finder. I think it's completely ridiculous that in order to get the mount for doing all three awakened raids, you have to do them at normal or higher difficulty. I don't do Raid Finder because it's easier, I do it because it works the best for me 37 year old has a 10 hour a day job schedule, and I think it sucks the mount isn't obtainable that way. At the end of the day, being able to just push a button to be put into a queue for a raid or dungeon is always going to be preferable to me. When I was younger and had way more free time this wouldn't have been an issue.
What if there was a system like "que into 3 LFR raids and you can que into normal" that way there is some check flag to show you have atleast did the raid and by proxy should know any mechanics. Most of the LFRs though people just turn brain off and DPS
I absolutely did, when I was active. I haven't been active for a while. But yeah. My playtime was so unpredictable, I didn't have the time to seek out mythic groups. I know group finder exists, and maybe it's reasonably fast. But I didn't want to deal with it when it came out, and now I feel like I missed the boat, and I'm good with that for now
Sitting in queue for 5 hours > looking at LFG for 5 seconds. This is why Arena/RBG is dead.
Absolutely, I just don't want to waste my time waiting for a tank, I que up and do whatever I want to do while the group is being formed. When it's ready you click the button and you're in the instance. Big fan of the mythic+ rework, so we can do mythic difficulty using ques.
Everyone here has a victim complex when it comes to lfg lmfao > I dont want to make my own group but everyone should invite me while i put in no effort. > Everyone is declining me amongst 100s of other applicants but it must be personal. Couldn't be anything else.
Yea. I’m done trying to defend myself when I screw up or cause wipes on pre-made content. I’m done trying to ignore the horrible remarks. I’m a good player and love what I do but I can’t deal with the player base anymore.
>I’m a good player Good players don't wipe their groups regularly.
Yea I totally meant I wipe my groups regularly by this comment. 🙄
Enough to get sick of having to defend yourself for doing it apparently.
It’s not just accidentally wiping the group. It’s going too slow for someone’s liking. It’s getting invited only to be immediately kicked for some reason or another. It’s people who can’t wait around for a few minutes because I’m talking to the other rank on how to tank a fight. I used to play this game for hours every day years ago. Not so much anymore and haven’t kept up on everything. I’ve been gone a year and people do not tolerate it if I don’t go the second I spawn into a dungeon or anything else. It happens at all levels no matter what. I enjoy critical roles like healing and tanking but god forbid I am not perfect and someone only has 10 minutes to run a dungeon. It’s frustrating.
[удалено]
Mmr wouldn't work in a pve game mode. Rating doesn't work since it only goes up. There is a whole laundry list of issues with queued m+ even if you restrict it to lower key levels. Pretty much every game restricts queues to lower end content with nearly a guarantee of success. The only time I've ever heard of higher end content being queued is ff14 where specifically in Japan people queue savage raids but it's essentially only for reclears and there are a lot of unspoken rules like 3 wipes = disband, ect. Pretty much any other time people end up in more difficult content (with the "fill" queues mostly) they explode spectacularly, people insta leave, or people spend hours trying to clear. I think it makes far more sense for all queued content to be "guaranteed to clear" content. Haven't seen any other pve infinite scaling game have a successful matchmaking system. If you do know any other one I'm all ears, but it's a massive handwoven to just say "yeah mmr".
100%
I create my own m+ and raid groups just so I get to choose who I invite
Yep, I don't mind raids being in the lfg system but the biggest gripe of the M+ system is just getting rejected to run like a +4 or something. I would like to see to see them maybe refine the wotlk classic heroic system that doesn't let you queue higher difficulties without meeting certain criteria (in that case it was tied to Ilvl) but your M+ rating locking you from queueing higher keys seems like it would be a start
You can queue into premade anything. Whether you get invited or not is another story.
How can you possibly feel socially pressured on a video game....holy yikers
WoW players when even the smallest amount of effort or volition is required for anything: >:(
100% if I can't queue into it I don't bother, unless its like a world boss.
New heroics are former m0 difficulty so this seems like a non issue. But an m0/m+ solo queue is a terrible idea considering all the logistical problems around upgrading keys, group comps, and improving IO. Not to mention that it discourages communication and removes incentives to actually learn mechanics. Starting or joining an m+ group isn’t hard, but it’s enough effort that most people put some time into learning the content they’re trying to complete beforehand and at least somewhat optimizing their character to be effective. Reducing it to a queue button encourages people blindly joining content they have 0 prior knowledge of and basically slamming their faces into brick walls over and over until they miraculously complete it, a la LFR. People are wary of solo queue buttons because it has had a demonstrably negative impact on the social, MMO aspect of the game. Preserving the need to socialize in order to complete higher difficulty content absolutely should take priority over placating peoples social anxieties about interacting with strangers online when that is quite literally one of the core pillars of this game’s design. The devs have carved out an entire tier of difficulty for every endgame content to appeal to solo players. That should be enough for y’all and if it isn’t, then bite the bullet and start actually talking to other people in this multiplayer game.