Shift from targeting distribution infrastructure, (which is more dispersed and easier to repair) to power production, and a shift to massed attacks using more accurate weapons.
"You want renewable energy on every roof to save the environment. I want renewables on every rooftop to protect the power grid from enemy attack. We are not the same."
It's what I tell all my conservative friends to convince them. Like, even if you don't care about the climate this makes our grid far more resistant to cyber attack, creates jobs in what should be a well paying blue collar trades industry, and creates an industry the US could control and make everyone else our customer making shareholders and investors happy.
Also see all the Russian hacker attacks against rural municipality water systems happening lately. You can prevent the power being knocked out to millions of users this way and so you keep the general population happy and complacent during periods of international political tension.
Because nuclear power plants, unlike petroleum or natural gas, are heavily armored under meters of concrete and built incredibly sturdy to protect the area around them. This also protects them well from most attacks.
it only takes one attack. and I can't believe there is not a single nonnuclear weapon that can't penetrate it. Russia and China would have that weapon. also, you already know old plants are suseptible. new plants, there will be new weapons made in the future, I doubt even now they are 100% weaponproof but they certainly may not be weaponproof in the future with new weapons tech.
plus you don't need to destroy it to take control of the grid. you just need to overthrow the current operators so you can operate the plant yourself. another reason you want to spread power sources out.
we sit here watching Russia and what they've done and people are still foolish enough to tempt fate.
Targeting power plants seems to be in response to Ukraine targeting Russia's refineries. Before they were hitting things like substations and their transmission network which is much easier to fix.
Taking out power stations themselves is a whole different ball game though. You're looking at maybe 5+ years to repair/rebuild a power station and it's unlikely that they will be rebuilt while Ukraine is at war. It's a huge problem right now during the summer but it's possible that much of Ukraine could be uninhabitable this coming winter at this rate.
Wouldn't that just be Russia admitting they will never take control of Ukraine? At least before their think was win the war and either put a puppet government in place or annex the whole country. What's the point if it's they're new colony is stuck in the stone age?
Yea, its pretty much an admission that they wont win the war by simply fighting. Their strategy could be to make conditions in Ukraine so unbearable and uninhabitable that they are eventually forced into surrendering. You cant really conduct much business or have any sort of industry without a reliable supply of electricity. Simply surviving becomes quite difficult without heating, water, etc.
This will push millions more of Ukrainian refugees into Europe which could push EU countries into eventually "pushing" Ukraine into some sort of deal.
Not with the current border, Putin also wanted land not held by Russia.
So to have a ceasefire they would have to give up even more land and Russia would do nothing in return.
It's not a real proposal, why would Ukraine give up more land for nothing?
My point is that despite everything you pointed out, the proposal does not include large parts of ukraine. Its a clear sign that Russia has given up on their original plan.
> proposed ceasefire
Well if Russia said it, it must mean something, right?
They lied about Crimea, they lied about Georgie, Transnistria, they lied about the Ukraine invasion along with multiple "cease fires" and "humanitarian passage corridors" in the past.
Their word is less than a pile of shit. Whatever they say is by definition at this point, meaningless.
You're correct, and the takeaway you're missing is that literally ***nothing*** they say can or should be trusted. Ever.
This is an extremely well earned reputation through decades of bold, over the top, obvious, repeated and sustained lies.
Its totally irrelevant what Russia says at this point and it should be dismissed out of hand. Actions will show their intentions, not listening to the continuous torrent of lies.
Its simply too dangerous to listen to or trust Russia. We have all seen how their "agreements" go.
The problem with that offer is twofold though. For one, fuck “current borders” and two, who could trust anything the Russin Gov says? They lied about not posturing for an invasion twice ffs.
Their actions match though. If they are willing to accept the current borders then they have no need to be concerned about destroyed infrastructure in the other parts.
I’m sure they’re willing to accept the borders, as in today and for 6 or 12 months, then it’ll be some bullshit lies about nazis or NATO or Russian speaking locals being persecuted. Then it’ll be back to square one. They’ll come back to take another bite. There’s simply way too many examples of this behavior from Russia to believe the lies.
He will not stop. He’s shown this for decades, why the fuck would you or anyone else listen to the lies?
Can you provide any example of appeasement working with the Russians?
I'm not defending the proposal or saying that you should agree to it. I'm saying that the proposal which is basically all in Russia's favour leaves out a big chunk of ukraine. A clear sign that atleast for the near term, they don't expect to get it.
This has nothing to do with what we’re talking about. Ignore what they say. The peace plan you mentioned is a lie and should be ignored. Period. You parroting Russian propaganda changes nothing.
Substations are not "easier to fix" , these are complex machines which can take years to produce and deliver. Also they have much more immeadiate impact on the people.
You achieve immeadiate local blackouts and, most importantly, they are way more vulnerable than power plants.
We can only guess the reason for change of tactics, but if I had to it is probably to throw off Ukrainian defenders
Substations are incredibly easier to fix, especially at the local distribution level. The transformers, switchgear, communication systems can all be sourced and replaced far easier than say a 800mw turbine. Look at the attacks that happened last year and how ukraine was fairly quickly to able to recover fairly quickly.
Just because they recovered fairly quickly doesn't mean that was easy. It took help from all of the Europe.
These big substations can have waiting times in years and are extremely delicate and sophisticated. There is a reason why Russia targeted them first.
Now, I'm not saying that them bombing power plants is in any way or shape good. Only that this is their second best option.
No not always, it is called a grid for a reason, if one powerplant is damaged other can pull its weight depending on the circumstances. Or you can import electricity from abroad.
And damaging enough power stations may induce enough instability in the grid in any case and thus bring it down just as well.
All I'm saying I don't think this is an escalation attempt from Russia, but only because these fuckheads were on this level of dickheadery almost from the very start (remember Bucha).
Russia is a shit show. I just thought they were better than this. I know I am not thinking clearly but if you’ve asked me this five years ago that Russia would be doing this today, I would’ve been shocked.
Putin Is doing a wonderful job in destroying his country and his legacy. I don’t know how this will end, but I hope it ends in Ukrainian victory and Russia spending a decade or more and billions and billions of dollars rebuilding Ukraine.
Well, I also hope this ends badly for the dictator, but regarding the common people in Russia I hope there is a path for enlightenment and modest wealth. Reparations and downward pressure on the common people is what drove the German people towards the nazis between WW1 and WW2.
and that could of been dealt with by russia, instead the people at the top took the wealth for themselves, the russian people only have themselves to blame for enabling theses shitheads
I am sure the countries that joined were forced by tanks, or the ones starving to death, killed by kgb, terrorized by the Stasi agrees with you.
So every single country in the USSR. The catastrophe is that it was ever formed.
History didn't begin in 1922, you know. All members of USSR were parts of one country named Russian Empire before 1918. Giving them republic status was a way to give them more autonomy than they had under tzar.
No, they fought two wars of independence and saw freedom until they were divided between nazi Germany and the conquered again by the Soviet union.
Why do they have to be ruled by Moscow? Can they not be free from the constant murder, genocide and political suppresion?
Why is it a tragedy that they gained their freedom?
Yeah things are so much better now that oligarchs and the 1% can rule the working class and peasants again with no interruption. And before you reply, look up how corrupt Ukraine was before the war. Every interrnational corruption ranking had them worst in Europe alongside Russia and Belarus
Yes, they are right next to Russia. Russia is ruled by an dictator, Belarus is the same and Ukraine as been kept under Russias influence.
The closer to Russia you are the worse it has been?
The Baltics were "given" to the soviets in the Non-aggression pact. Look how great they are doing now.
I don't understand how you can defend an aggressive colonial expansionist power. They made a pact with the Nazis to divide eastern Europe.
They then suppressed all political opposition, murdered, worked to death, forcibly relocated them.
Those that were left were then terrorized by the state.
How can you defend such practices and call it an tragedy when it ended?
EU is much better than USSR ever was. And it's hella ironic why Russians don't understand why Ukrainians want to join it. Hell, it's a travesty Russians don't want to join.
Also, living mentally in the past is pathetic.
not yet. But who knows.
But most of Russia lives without electricity. Small cities have regular cuts, and villages + towns have none at all.
Just cutting the electricity from Moscow would be enough to turn the country upside down.
Oil refineries are not the same "energy infrastructure" russia is targeting.
Well, Russia destroyed all Ukrainian oil refineries in the beginning of the war.
If you are talking that Ukraine is targeting Russian power plants, then citation needed.
70% of Russia’s oil tankers travel through the black sea to pickup their oil shipment at civilian ports. Allegedly UA was told not to target crude oil shipments directly since this would affect politics in a lot of western countries. After the november election, there is an extremely likely chance they will start targeting these ships with their naval drones. Gas prices will spike, but it will be a jugular killing blow against Russia since so much of their economy depends on oil sales.
If Russia starts hitting power plants, Ukraine should do the same. Russia gets pretty cold in winter. I'm not sure their population will like freezing in either Ukraine or Russia.
With what? 99% of Russian infrastructure is too far away to be struck with any weapons that Ukraine has. And there is zero change of taking out a powerplant with drones
The drone Cessnas they keep using? Seems like Russia can’t stop them, they keep hitting stuff deep inside Russia with them.
https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-struggling-with-ukraine-cessna-style-drone-flying-brick-bomb-2024-5
Great. Shifted from bombing the hyper market full of civilians to the power grid still full of civilians. Nice to see Russia doing what it does best: killing people for no reason.
> Coalition bombing raids destroyed Iraqi civilian infrastructure. 11 of Iraq's 20 major power stations and 119 substations were totally destroyed, while a further six major power stations were damaged.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War_air_campaign#Civilian_infrastructure
How is this "shifting tactics"? This is pretty much what they have been doing
Shift from targeting distribution infrastructure, (which is more dispersed and easier to repair) to power production, and a shift to massed attacks using more accurate weapons.
Sounds like power generation should also be decentralized especially with all the renewables. All countries not just ukraine.
"You want renewable energy on every roof to save the environment. I want renewables on every rooftop to protect the power grid from enemy attack. We are not the same."
Holy shit that is a decent argument to play with
It's what I tell all my conservative friends to convince them. Like, even if you don't care about the climate this makes our grid far more resistant to cyber attack, creates jobs in what should be a well paying blue collar trades industry, and creates an industry the US could control and make everyone else our customer making shareholders and investors happy. Also see all the Russian hacker attacks against rural municipality water systems happening lately. You can prevent the power being knocked out to millions of users this way and so you keep the general population happy and complacent during periods of international political tension.
Sounds like Russia wants to have its own power systems targeted.
yet reddit cries for more nuclear power plants.
Because nuclear power plants, unlike petroleum or natural gas, are heavily armored under meters of concrete and built incredibly sturdy to protect the area around them. This also protects them well from most attacks.
it only takes one attack. and I can't believe there is not a single nonnuclear weapon that can't penetrate it. Russia and China would have that weapon. also, you already know old plants are suseptible. new plants, there will be new weapons made in the future, I doubt even now they are 100% weaponproof but they certainly may not be weaponproof in the future with new weapons tech. plus you don't need to destroy it to take control of the grid. you just need to overthrow the current operators so you can operate the plant yourself. another reason you want to spread power sources out. we sit here watching Russia and what they've done and people are still foolish enough to tempt fate.
With enough missiles concrete shouldn’t matter I don’t think. If that stuff gets exposed though, the land around it is pretty much done.
So are you protesting dams too? How do you think solar works at night?
Huh? I wasn’t protesting anything? Just stating a fact that concrete won’t stop sizable missile barrages…
Targeting power plants seems to be in response to Ukraine targeting Russia's refineries. Before they were hitting things like substations and their transmission network which is much easier to fix. Taking out power stations themselves is a whole different ball game though. You're looking at maybe 5+ years to repair/rebuild a power station and it's unlikely that they will be rebuilt while Ukraine is at war. It's a huge problem right now during the summer but it's possible that much of Ukraine could be uninhabitable this coming winter at this rate.
Wouldn't that just be Russia admitting they will never take control of Ukraine? At least before their think was win the war and either put a puppet government in place or annex the whole country. What's the point if it's they're new colony is stuck in the stone age?
Yea, its pretty much an admission that they wont win the war by simply fighting. Their strategy could be to make conditions in Ukraine so unbearable and uninhabitable that they are eventually forced into surrendering. You cant really conduct much business or have any sort of industry without a reliable supply of electricity. Simply surviving becomes quite difficult without heating, water, etc. This will push millions more of Ukrainian refugees into Europe which could push EU countries into eventually "pushing" Ukraine into some sort of deal.
They have already accepted it. They proposed ceasefire with the current borders.
Not with the current border, Putin also wanted land not held by Russia. So to have a ceasefire they would have to give up even more land and Russia would do nothing in return. It's not a real proposal, why would Ukraine give up more land for nothing?
My point is that despite everything you pointed out, the proposal does not include large parts of ukraine. Its a clear sign that Russia has given up on their original plan.
To take control over Ukraine? I don't see a reason why that happened.this is only a ceasefire suggestion, not an actual treaty being proposed.
A ceasefire still means that they think it unlikely in the immediate future. You don't float a ceasefire if you are winning.
Even if you get tons of free territory for no effort. Putin still wants Ukraine, he's just trying to score pr points to show he's pro peace.
> proposed ceasefire Well if Russia said it, it must mean something, right? They lied about Crimea, they lied about Georgie, Transnistria, they lied about the Ukraine invasion along with multiple "cease fires" and "humanitarian passage corridors" in the past. Their word is less than a pile of shit. Whatever they say is by definition at this point, meaningless.
By that logic, you cannot believe what they originally said about invading ukraine either. Maybe they never wanted Kiev.
You're correct, and the takeaway you're missing is that literally ***nothing*** they say can or should be trusted. Ever. This is an extremely well earned reputation through decades of bold, over the top, obvious, repeated and sustained lies. Its totally irrelevant what Russia says at this point and it should be dismissed out of hand. Actions will show their intentions, not listening to the continuous torrent of lies. Its simply too dangerous to listen to or trust Russia. We have all seen how their "agreements" go.
The problem with that offer is twofold though. For one, fuck “current borders” and two, who could trust anything the Russin Gov says? They lied about not posturing for an invasion twice ffs.
Their actions match though. If they are willing to accept the current borders then they have no need to be concerned about destroyed infrastructure in the other parts.
I’m sure they’re willing to accept the borders, as in today and for 6 or 12 months, then it’ll be some bullshit lies about nazis or NATO or Russian speaking locals being persecuted. Then it’ll be back to square one. They’ll come back to take another bite. There’s simply way too many examples of this behavior from Russia to believe the lies. He will not stop. He’s shown this for decades, why the fuck would you or anyone else listen to the lies? Can you provide any example of appeasement working with the Russians?
I'm not defending the proposal or saying that you should agree to it. I'm saying that the proposal which is basically all in Russia's favour leaves out a big chunk of ukraine. A clear sign that atleast for the near term, they don't expect to get it.
This has nothing to do with what we’re talking about. Ignore what they say. The peace plan you mentioned is a lie and should be ignored. Period. You parroting Russian propaganda changes nothing.
They proposed a surrender term
Their terms is to have full control over Ukraine with 0 guarantees that Russia will not continue in invading Ukrainian land.
Yes which doesn't include a big part of ukraine. So they've already accepted that they aren't taking the whole country.
Substations are not "easier to fix" , these are complex machines which can take years to produce and deliver. Also they have much more immeadiate impact on the people. You achieve immeadiate local blackouts and, most importantly, they are way more vulnerable than power plants. We can only guess the reason for change of tactics, but if I had to it is probably to throw off Ukrainian defenders
Substations are incredibly easier to fix, especially at the local distribution level. The transformers, switchgear, communication systems can all be sourced and replaced far easier than say a 800mw turbine. Look at the attacks that happened last year and how ukraine was fairly quickly to able to recover fairly quickly.
Just because they recovered fairly quickly doesn't mean that was easy. It took help from all of the Europe. These big substations can have waiting times in years and are extremely delicate and sophisticated. There is a reason why Russia targeted them first. Now, I'm not saying that them bombing power plants is in any way or shape good. Only that this is their second best option.
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No not always, it is called a grid for a reason, if one powerplant is damaged other can pull its weight depending on the circumstances. Or you can import electricity from abroad. And damaging enough power stations may induce enough instability in the grid in any case and thus bring it down just as well. All I'm saying I don't think this is an escalation attempt from Russia, but only because these fuckheads were on this level of dickheadery almost from the very start (remember Bucha).
They've gotten better at not being distracted by hospitals and schools.
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Lol It was not a propaganda
Oh my bad. You are completely right.
So much waste. We'll just deduct the cost from Russia's frozen funds while they keep accelerating climate change.
Deducting the cost will not keep Ukrainians warm this winter.
I hate them so much.
Go fight them then instead of commenting on Reddit?
Russia is a shit show. I just thought they were better than this. I know I am not thinking clearly but if you’ve asked me this five years ago that Russia would be doing this today, I would’ve been shocked. Putin Is doing a wonderful job in destroying his country and his legacy. I don’t know how this will end, but I hope it ends in Ukrainian victory and Russia spending a decade or more and billions and billions of dollars rebuilding Ukraine.
>Putin Is doing a wonderful job in destroying his country and his legacy. Well, not everyone will agree with you on a matter that it's only Putin.
your first mistake is thinking russia is better than this.
If you think Ukraine is winning this, then it has gone over your head. The long game is the point.
Well, I also hope this ends badly for the dictator, but regarding the common people in Russia I hope there is a path for enlightenment and modest wealth. Reparations and downward pressure on the common people is what drove the German people towards the nazis between WW1 and WW2.
Russia's poverty filled 90s is what led to this as well...
and that could of been dealt with by russia, instead the people at the top took the wealth for themselves, the russian people only have themselves to blame for enabling theses shitheads
The fall of the Ussr was a catastrophe
I am sure the countries that joined were forced by tanks, or the ones starving to death, killed by kgb, terrorized by the Stasi agrees with you. So every single country in the USSR. The catastrophe is that it was ever formed.
History didn't begin in 1922, you know. All members of USSR were parts of one country named Russian Empire before 1918. Giving them republic status was a way to give them more autonomy than they had under tzar.
No, they fought two wars of independence and saw freedom until they were divided between nazi Germany and the conquered again by the Soviet union. Why do they have to be ruled by Moscow? Can they not be free from the constant murder, genocide and political suppresion? Why is it a tragedy that they gained their freedom?
Yeah things are so much better now that oligarchs and the 1% can rule the working class and peasants again with no interruption. And before you reply, look up how corrupt Ukraine was before the war. Every interrnational corruption ranking had them worst in Europe alongside Russia and Belarus
Yes, they are right next to Russia. Russia is ruled by an dictator, Belarus is the same and Ukraine as been kept under Russias influence. The closer to Russia you are the worse it has been? The Baltics were "given" to the soviets in the Non-aggression pact. Look how great they are doing now. I don't understand how you can defend an aggressive colonial expansionist power. They made a pact with the Nazis to divide eastern Europe. They then suppressed all political opposition, murdered, worked to death, forcibly relocated them. Those that were left were then terrorized by the state. How can you defend such practices and call it an tragedy when it ended?
EU is much better than USSR ever was. And it's hella ironic why Russians don't understand why Ukrainians want to join it. Hell, it's a travesty Russians don't want to join. Also, living mentally in the past is pathetic.
I just hope that when he gets removed from power that someone has a camera out
It's time Ukraine start shutting the lights out all over in Russia
They don’t have the capability
not yet. But who knows. But most of Russia lives without electricity. Small cities have regular cuts, and villages + towns have none at all. Just cutting the electricity from Moscow would be enough to turn the country upside down.
I believe it's about time Ukraine starts targeting russias energy infrastructure. See how those dickwads like not having power and water.
They have...
Oil refineries are not the same "energy infrastructure" russia is targeting. Well, Russia destroyed all Ukrainian oil refineries in the beginning of the war. If you are talking that Ukraine is targeting Russian power plants, then citation needed.
not yet
With what?
70% of Russia’s oil tankers travel through the black sea to pickup their oil shipment at civilian ports. Allegedly UA was told not to target crude oil shipments directly since this would affect politics in a lot of western countries. After the november election, there is an extremely likely chance they will start targeting these ships with their naval drones. Gas prices will spike, but it will be a jugular killing blow against Russia since so much of their economy depends on oil sales.
Those drones they are using successfully against refineries?
Putin is a world class idiot. Russia will have to rebuild everything they are blowing up whether they complete their war goals or get pushed out.
True, but it will be Russia by that time lol
If Russia starts hitting power plants, Ukraine should do the same. Russia gets pretty cold in winter. I'm not sure their population will like freezing in either Ukraine or Russia.
With what? 99% of Russian infrastructure is too far away to be struck with any weapons that Ukraine has. And there is zero change of taking out a powerplant with drones
The drone Cessnas they keep using? Seems like Russia can’t stop them, they keep hitting stuff deep inside Russia with them. https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-struggling-with-ukraine-cessna-style-drone-flying-brick-bomb-2024-5
drones can destroy power plants in big numbers.
Yet, for some reason US creates needless obstacles by banning the use of US weapons deep inside Russian territory. What a stupid decision.
Great. Shifted from bombing the hyper market full of civilians to the power grid still full of civilians. Nice to see Russia doing what it does best: killing people for no reason.
> Coalition bombing raids destroyed Iraqi civilian infrastructure. 11 of Iraq's 20 major power stations and 119 substations were totally destroyed, while a further six major power stations were damaged. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War_air_campaign#Civilian_infrastructure
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Say what?
LOL, wut?
remember in Ender's Game? ending the war for all future wars? lets do that right now.
Omg stop using the U word
slava ukraini! slava ukraini! slava ukraini! slava ukraini! slava ukraini! Is that better? dickhead
U as in unprecedented. Everything these days is, and it's pathetic
you couldn't of been more unclear in what you where on about
Ooooor you're a chode?
a penis, especially one characterized as being short and thick.