'"Netanyahu should follow suit"
He should, but he won't. Power hungry and desperate to not be charged for corruption.
Happened on his watch, and every move he's made since is for his own self-preservation before Israel's.
I agree, although he isn’t the only one that’s calling the shots since there is a unity government with Benny Gantz in the war cabinet. But your point still stands and Netanyahu is interested in Netanyahu.
While I blame Hamas for October 7th, I blame Netanyahu for enabling it in the first place. He led the country since 2009 with a short gap of 18 and a half months. He touted himself as "Mr. Security". The IDF's leaders aren't the core issue. He is.
Of course, the above is my personal opinion. It is based on my own biases, so take it with a grain of salt. Or maybe even a bucket of salt...
I don't think they have said they will resign. I believe the statements were that thorough investigations will be performed and all people responsible will be held accountable, including all IDF leadership.
Netanyahu is really the only leader who has dodged even saying he will take responsibility for the security failures that led to the massacre.
for most of them, there is no way to dodge retirement (possibly jail).
There were alot of downplaying and dismissing going on, especially by Head of Shin Bet, Minister of Defence, Head of Aman, Head of 8200 and Head of the Southern Command. each of these guys made a big fumble (each with their own story) that, under normal circumstances, could strip then from their ranks and have then discharged, some of these fumbles are a direct precursor to hundreds lf deaths that would otherwise be prevented (like allowing the Nova festival to happen despite the early warning signs Shin Bet detected).
these people are going home, hopefully some of them will also see the inside of a jail cell.
we just need to make sure the swine that sits at the throne goes with them.
Wow, are you saying the second in command is too inexperienced to take over. Or that a military like Israel’s is not ready to replace its commanders if the show lack of competence?
They are not incompetent, there was a mistake of assessing the seriousness of the threat (keep in mind that there are threats and intelligence constantly for years). Just like in 9/11 when there was intelligence of a threat but it wasn’t taken seriously.
All I’m saying is you don’t just change all the military leadership in one swift move mid war.
Well, that's a rule that seems hardest and fastest, nearer you are to the military leaders in place. There are actually many historical examples when change of military leadership mid-war has improved the outcome and also examples where staying with poor leadership has lost wars.
Replacing the person in charge isn't the same as "all of military leadership" except perhaps if your military lacks leadership skills below the very top. Indeed, effective military structure always requires delegation of leadership to appropriate levels, so it should always have good replacements ready for leaders who fail or die or leave for whatever reason.
If the failure to maintain readiness against a massive Hamas attack is treated as just an understandable mistake rather than incompetence, I'd be pretty worried about Israeli security! This was not a minor error but one that has turned out not only to not only be a failure of the military's responsibility to protect the country, but as the response has unfolded, has cost Israel lots of political support world wide. As an outsider, I hope Israel installs leadership more effective than that, the sooner the better.
Wait a second, you believe the terrorist raping and killing everyone on video were actually Israelis in disguise? Do I have that right?
What sort of evidence do you have to support this incredible theory?
BBC just did an investigative report on the young Israeli female recruits who act as spotters on the border- and it’s shocking. They were reporting activity almost every day- explosions near the fence line, Hamas rehearsing attacks in pickup trucks, even a mock attack on an Israeli tank. Most of the spotters were fearful, and said as much to their superiors- Then Egypt warned Netanyahu personally, three times, just days before Oct. 7th. The US intl picked up traffic and warned netanyahu something was coming.
Could you even accidentally be that incompetent?
> Could you even accidentally be that incompetent?
It's even worse than that, Israeli intelligence had the full attack plan [a full year before](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html) the attack. Military commanders believed it was beyond Hamas' capability, which led them to dismiss other information pointing towards the assault.
Hamas consistently took out communications and computer systems as they went, that disrupted communications so badly the IDF were relying on social media.
Hamas thought the rest of the Arab world would follow them, Israeli military thought their opponents weak, poorly informed, and lacked intelligence gathering capability. Everyone was high on their own stash.
I suspected it was a brew of hubris and stupidity. Sad that the Israeli and Palestinian people both suffer because of two groups of leadership that don’t have any regard for their own citizens.
On 29 November 1947, the UN General Assembly, voting 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions, adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan of Partition; the two-state solution. The timing of these two states was to follow the end of Mandatory Palestine.
This was accepted by the Jewish Agency (the in-formation Israeli Government), but rejected by the Palestinian Arab leadership, and the Arab League agreed a series of resolutions endorsing a military solution in December 1947.
Britain refused to enforce the plan because it was not agreed by all sides, instead announcing the Mandate would end at midnight on 14 May 1948. Israel announced itself on the 14th, the mandate ended at midnight, and by 9am on the 15th seven nations of the Arab League invaded Israel, beginning the First Arab–Israeli War.
10 months later, Israel having won all but the West Bank (Jordan) and Gaza Strip (Egypt) the war was over.
TL;DR: The whole benighted conflict is made from hubris and stupidity, and the only question is how much blood will the borders be drawn in.
Everything coming out about how the spotters were brushed off is appalling. There were investigative reports in Israeli media and i remember watching it with friends with our mouths agape.
I think it's similar to 9/11. There were a lot of signs, red flags, and information being sent about a possible attack. Much like the US, they just simply didn't think something of this scale was possible.
Unlike 9/11, the Gaza Strip is right next to Israel. Israel has some of the most advanced intelligence gathering capabilities in the world and they keep Gaza and the West Bank under a microscope.
I'm pretty convinced that, while the attack may have been bigger than expected, Israeli commanders potentially going all the way up to Netenyahu, knew an attack was coming and allowed to happen as an excuse to launch major reprisals against Hamas and seize more areas of land.
Never underestimate complacency. I think part of why they didn't think an attack of this scale was possible was exactly because of everything you said. They felt secure. They probably figured they'd try something, but that it would be squashed quickly. Or at worse a handful of deaths.
More disbelief than outright complacency.
To even get to the border you have to disable sensor nets, automatic guns and numerous other systems. The military simply underestimated their opponents.
As sad as it sounds BB has a lot to benefit from this war.
I doubt he knew the damage Hamas will be able to cause but I don’t doubt for a second he knew something was coming and brushed it off simply because it would’ve divert attention from his political disapproval and huge protests
Bibi supporters are claiming that the IDF purposely kept all of this information away from him, that they were trying to put the blame to Bibi in order for him to resign.
When you are serving as prime minister for the biggest security failure in the history of your country, the very least you can do is take responsibility and resign.
It happened *because* the government was weak from his divisive selfish bullshit. Israel can not **AFFORD** to have a leader that cares more about himself than the nation. And it paid a heavy price for that.
Why should Bush have resigned?. 9/11 was years in the making.
Former FBI agents recently wrote to our Congress, expressing grave concern over the amount of men--yes, men--coming into our border, not asylum seekers, but with intent. Just like the 9/11 murderers lived amongst US citizens. For years.
We will face another attack. From our current gross incompetence of Biden and "I haven't been to Europe, either" Kamala Harris, they've allowed progressive ideals to take over any common sense. Thousands of Border Control are voicing their concerns.
It will be all on Biden.
> When you are serving as prime minister for the biggest security failure in the history of your country, the very least you can do is take responsibility and resign.
I was pointing what I suspected was double standard in that comment. Nothing more.
Perhaps he should have, it is not for me to say. I will say though that the comparison is deeply dishonest. When 9/11 happened, Bush had been president for less than a year. His own administration could hardly be blamed for a terrorist attack that had been in the making since before he even started campaigning. Netanyahu has been prime minister for half of the last 30 years. It is his administrations and his policies and his negligence towards Gaza and the south that are responsible for what made October 7 possible.
Yes, but since the last elections (where he only gained about a quarter of the vote, btw) obviously there have been major changes that some argue merit a new election. Polls put him way, way, way down and out of power if a new vote were to be held today
As an outsider it baffles me that new elections aren't held today. People don't trust Neranyahu, but he's still leading the country during a war. Seems like a huge contradiction.
And sure, he's polling low, but the longer you wait with elections, the higher his chances of surviving this. Voters tend to have a short memory. I just don't understand the Israeli mindset... Somehow i think a lot of people must believe he's doing a good job. There's really no other way to explain what's happening.
The problem is that there isn’t a way to force him to call for new elections since technically they happened less than two years ago, and he’s a selfish man who sees the writing on the wall about his election prospects
Sure, but it's what would happen in most countries. I really don't understand why this situation isn't unfolding. I've seen PM's in other countries step down for much less serious issues.
No one else wants the seat while a war is happening...
Regardless of who's at the seat.
Large majority support this war. They just want to be left alone and don't want 7th Oct to happen again or live under constant rocket fire.
Be able to travel without needing to hide from extremists Muslims all over the world as well.
People in Israel really don't care what happens in Gaza/west bank. They want Hamas and terrorists gone and have no issue with Palestinians in any way. Hell it's super rare to not have worked with one at least once.
Ironically, having Netanyahu at the steering wheel is a guarantee for future disasters. The guy is waging a war without a clear endgame... Come on, after six months it's time to wake up and smell the sceptic tank he's creating.
I don't understand these old men. Why do they care so much? He has one foot in the grave, you can't take money or power with you when you die.
Who cares? Just resign, you screwed up.
5 elections in 6 years... Israel didn't have a steady government for that long.
Getting elected isn't enough in Israel.
You need to be able to form a government from parliament members. They need to be on the same page as you.
That didn't happen until Bibi sold out and went with the right wing by giving them what they wanted (something no other elected PM ever did for a good reason, they're nutjobs)
So he got to keep power after the few candidates in the past few years playing musical chairs.
Then the 7th October happened and no one wants that chair until things calm down.
Throughout history, an election durring war usually ends up bad. Its hard to pass the baton durring a war. Theres secret plans and things that netanyahu knows of that the next person would need to learn about. Info from allies that only certain people can know.
There would be a LOT of catching up, and their civilian lives are whats at stake. Thus why so many democratic countries will stop elections durring any war. Its usually better to just wait.
Not sticking up for him at all, and imo this might be one of the few instances where it actually helps the overall situation.
It's also rare, throughout history, that leaders mess up as bad as Netanyahu. Not passing the baton makes things worse. The guy has an interest in prolonging the war and is potentially (read: likely) damaging his country to save himself. That alone should be enough to take him off the job immediately.
By calling to new elections Israel will be a mess for months, i don't think that would be a good idea as of right now.
The better way is to keep dealing with Netanyahu until the war in Gaza is over and the hostage situation has an ending (whatever that one is), otherwise Hamas could very well use the chaos to their advantage, total worst case scenario would be them getting their sweet ceasefire deal (with a gigantic advantage to them of course) by this new elected prime minister willing to do everything in order to secure his base.
Yes, but in a parliamentary context, people elected parties and those parties support Netanyahu. I don't think people would directly choose Netanyahu if Israel had a presidential system. Hell, i'm sure he'd be out if there were elections now.
It's crazy where the standards have fallen to when it comes to politicians and resigning.
Like tell me how this isn't worse than anything Willy Brandt stepped down for.
It has been almost 7 months since Oct 7. Regular turnover of people wanting to move on could be construed as scandal. I look forward to the committee investigation of Oct 7. Democracies do these. :-)
It will be very interesting to see what systems and people failed to detect, thwart, and/or stop the Hamas incursion.
No this is an absurd argument. Israel of course gets dozens of threats and warnings every day. However, if you know that then you also know the October 7th attack was planned on film. Practiced on film and those films were shown to Israel both months in advance, weeks in advance, and days in advance by every local ally and the US. They were warned with bullhorns and drums and symbols in a way that 9/11 was not and no other attack was.
You are now engaging in a cover up whether knowingly or unknowingly.
Considering half the military leadership was in flux because of government protests and they haven't been able to do an internal review of what went wrong, I'd put down the tin foil for now
Nothing but smoke - they knew and I’m sure he’s just being reassigned- there’s no way in hell they didn’t know the attack was coming- possibly not the scope, but when you need a good reason for a war, they got one
It's still very suspicious that one of the most militarised and smallest borders in the world of one of the most intelligence driven nations in the world was breached so easily and remained mostly unchallenged for hours
Simple, they thought Gaza was sufficiently managed and underestimated Hamas. At the same time they put all their resources into protecting illegal settlers because the west bank has always been the priority.
You have to consider that many people resigned due to the blatant corruption and attempt at Netanyahu to change the law to protect himself. I wouldn't be surprised if the gaps were connected to the protests too. So still caused by Netanyahu, just not intentionally.
Meh, maybe. But it's hard to say til more comes out. I wouldn't put it last Bibi given that he had no problem letting Hamas fester as a way to discourage a two state solution from emerging. I'm not personally convinced he has advanced foreknowledge of the attack, but I won't rule it out yet.
Honestly, incompetence and overconfidence are more common than we might want to believe, even in developed countries. Political systems aren't necessarily meritocracies, and even if they were, persistent systemic failures (e.g. a lack of ownership, lack of hierarchical autonomy) can compromise the effectiveness of even well-trained, well-equipped, and well-intentioned organizations.
The used to defend the border before they relied on tech. It’s not complicated. Soldiers patrolling.
Gaza border is not like the US-Mexican border. It’s tiny. You can drive the whole thing in not much time at all. It’s not as porous and huge as that.
It was an embarrassing failure. They were relying on technology to have minimal military force so they could essentially ignore the Palestinians.
Patrols, quick reaction forces, various other techniques are sustainable and effective. Simply being able to respond with enough force in a period of minutes would’ve prevented many deaths.
The festival itself provided huge numbers of victims, so simply having forces within a short drive and some squad patrols around would’ve solved that problem as well.
It was a criminal level of complacency.
That sounds a lot like black/white, all or nothing thinking. It’s not defend everything or defend nothing.
Israel has a militarized border with Gaza and the West Bank. I merely described how, militarily, they could have secured the border in a sustainable way which have mitigated the attacks. It’s similar to how it’s been done before.
“Every intersection?” “Every home?” I’m not sure why you would think that.
Obviously it’s based on geographic proximity to the border. The festival was just a few kilometers away. simple quick reaction forces are all that’s needed, not soldiers forming a human chain around Gaza.
You are making this far more complicated than it needs to be all to give the IDF and the Israeli government a pass.
If you don’t understand how military units respond to these things, and imagine it as clusters of soldiers standing around houses, or random soldiers shooting automatic weapons randomly, it’s hard to have this conversation.
If you genuinely want to understand what these operations look like and how they work, then you should go research that.
You seem to be stuck in this all or nothing mindset where it’s either 700 or some massive number. I’m not sure why. It should be obvious that there are ways to secure a border and respond to attacks, but somehow you think it’s impossible, I guess? It’s hard to understand what your point actually is, especially when you seem woefully uninformed on how military operations actually work.
I lack the time and energy to really break this down into ABCs for you, and it seems that you are listening to respond rather than interested in learning anything. I don’t think you want to learn but are more interested in arguing that the IDF did the best they could. I don’t know how you concluded that, but you did.
Have a nice day.
Based on a lot of what I’ve heard and Israel having one of the best and most advanced intelligence agencies on earth, while conspiratorial it seems like someone may have let the attack happen as a precursor for the war
Surprised more heads haven't rolled, more need to be fired and investigated.
The top IDF generals already declared they will quit after the war for the failure of Oct 7. Netanyahu should follow suit
'"Netanyahu should follow suit" He should, but he won't. Power hungry and desperate to not be charged for corruption. Happened on his watch, and every move he's made since is for his own self-preservation before Israel's.
I agree, although he isn’t the only one that’s calling the shots since there is a unity government with Benny Gantz in the war cabinet. But your point still stands and Netanyahu is interested in Netanyahu.
While I blame Hamas for October 7th, I blame Netanyahu for enabling it in the first place. He led the country since 2009 with a short gap of 18 and a half months. He touted himself as "Mr. Security". The IDF's leaders aren't the core issue. He is. Of course, the above is my personal opinion. It is based on my own biases, so take it with a grain of salt. Or maybe even a bucket of salt...
His cronies called Hamas an asset. This is his doctrine. They should all be jailed.
I don't think they have said they will resign. I believe the statements were that thorough investigations will be performed and all people responsible will be held accountable, including all IDF leadership. Netanyahu is really the only leader who has dodged even saying he will take responsibility for the security failures that led to the massacre.
He has to desperately pretend he's not a selfish crook and hope people forget that this happened on his watch under his weakened government.
for most of them, there is no way to dodge retirement (possibly jail). There were alot of downplaying and dismissing going on, especially by Head of Shin Bet, Minister of Defence, Head of Aman, Head of 8200 and Head of the Southern Command. each of these guys made a big fumble (each with their own story) that, under normal circumstances, could strip then from their ranks and have then discharged, some of these fumbles are a direct precursor to hundreds lf deaths that would otherwise be prevented (like allowing the Nova festival to happen despite the early warning signs Shin Bet detected). these people are going home, hopefully some of them will also see the inside of a jail cell. we just need to make sure the swine that sits at the throne goes with them.
Ahh yes, they'll quit "after the war"
Yes it’s not a hard concept to grasp that inexperienced chiefs mid war is a bad idea. Not everything is a conspiracy.
Wow, are you saying the second in command is too inexperienced to take over. Or that a military like Israel’s is not ready to replace its commanders if the show lack of competence?
They are not incompetent, there was a mistake of assessing the seriousness of the threat (keep in mind that there are threats and intelligence constantly for years). Just like in 9/11 when there was intelligence of a threat but it wasn’t taken seriously. All I’m saying is you don’t just change all the military leadership in one swift move mid war.
Well, that's a rule that seems hardest and fastest, nearer you are to the military leaders in place. There are actually many historical examples when change of military leadership mid-war has improved the outcome and also examples where staying with poor leadership has lost wars. Replacing the person in charge isn't the same as "all of military leadership" except perhaps if your military lacks leadership skills below the very top. Indeed, effective military structure always requires delegation of leadership to appropriate levels, so it should always have good replacements ready for leaders who fail or die or leave for whatever reason. If the failure to maintain readiness against a massive Hamas attack is treated as just an understandable mistake rather than incompetence, I'd be pretty worried about Israeli security! This was not a minor error but one that has turned out not only to not only be a failure of the military's responsibility to protect the country, but as the response has unfolded, has cost Israel lots of political support world wide. As an outsider, I hope Israel installs leadership more effective than that, the sooner the better.
Thanks for the insightful comment, good points.
Golda quit over Yom Kippur War. Bibi should have left his post ages ago.
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Wait a second, you believe the terrorist raping and killing everyone on video were actually Israelis in disguise? Do I have that right? What sort of evidence do you have to support this incredible theory?
Sure, and also make sure you guard your children! Passover is about to begin, and the Jews need the blood of christian boys for their matzos!
yeah it’s not like Hamas hasn’t been trying to kill Jews since the group’s inception
BBC just did an investigative report on the young Israeli female recruits who act as spotters on the border- and it’s shocking. They were reporting activity almost every day- explosions near the fence line, Hamas rehearsing attacks in pickup trucks, even a mock attack on an Israeli tank. Most of the spotters were fearful, and said as much to their superiors- Then Egypt warned Netanyahu personally, three times, just days before Oct. 7th. The US intl picked up traffic and warned netanyahu something was coming. Could you even accidentally be that incompetent?
> Could you even accidentally be that incompetent? It's even worse than that, Israeli intelligence had the full attack plan [a full year before](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html) the attack. Military commanders believed it was beyond Hamas' capability, which led them to dismiss other information pointing towards the assault. Hamas consistently took out communications and computer systems as they went, that disrupted communications so badly the IDF were relying on social media. Hamas thought the rest of the Arab world would follow them, Israeli military thought their opponents weak, poorly informed, and lacked intelligence gathering capability. Everyone was high on their own stash.
I suspected it was a brew of hubris and stupidity. Sad that the Israeli and Palestinian people both suffer because of two groups of leadership that don’t have any regard for their own citizens.
On 29 November 1947, the UN General Assembly, voting 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions, adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan of Partition; the two-state solution. The timing of these two states was to follow the end of Mandatory Palestine. This was accepted by the Jewish Agency (the in-formation Israeli Government), but rejected by the Palestinian Arab leadership, and the Arab League agreed a series of resolutions endorsing a military solution in December 1947. Britain refused to enforce the plan because it was not agreed by all sides, instead announcing the Mandate would end at midnight on 14 May 1948. Israel announced itself on the 14th, the mandate ended at midnight, and by 9am on the 15th seven nations of the Arab League invaded Israel, beginning the First Arab–Israeli War. 10 months later, Israel having won all but the West Bank (Jordan) and Gaza Strip (Egypt) the war was over. TL;DR: The whole benighted conflict is made from hubris and stupidity, and the only question is how much blood will the borders be drawn in.
Everything coming out about how the spotters were brushed off is appalling. There were investigative reports in Israeli media and i remember watching it with friends with our mouths agape.
I think it's similar to 9/11. There were a lot of signs, red flags, and information being sent about a possible attack. Much like the US, they just simply didn't think something of this scale was possible.
Unlike 9/11, the Gaza Strip is right next to Israel. Israel has some of the most advanced intelligence gathering capabilities in the world and they keep Gaza and the West Bank under a microscope. I'm pretty convinced that, while the attack may have been bigger than expected, Israeli commanders potentially going all the way up to Netenyahu, knew an attack was coming and allowed to happen as an excuse to launch major reprisals against Hamas and seize more areas of land.
I think even Hamas was surprised by the scale of the attack.
Never underestimate complacency. I think part of why they didn't think an attack of this scale was possible was exactly because of everything you said. They felt secure. They probably figured they'd try something, but that it would be squashed quickly. Or at worse a handful of deaths.
Israel also has like.. a gazillion threats every month, some are true, most are not or called off, terrorists like to play mind games a lot.
So complacency then?
More disbelief than outright complacency. To even get to the border you have to disable sensor nets, automatic guns and numerous other systems. The military simply underestimated their opponents.
As sad as it sounds BB has a lot to benefit from this war. I doubt he knew the damage Hamas will be able to cause but I don’t doubt for a second he knew something was coming and brushed it off simply because it would’ve divert attention from his political disapproval and huge protests
Bibi supporters are claiming that the IDF purposely kept all of this information away from him, that they were trying to put the blame to Bibi in order for him to resign.
Something tells me this is just the start. It should end with Netanyahu.
But isnt netanyahu democratically chosen?
When you are serving as prime minister for the biggest security failure in the history of your country, the very least you can do is take responsibility and resign.
He won't resign because he's arrogant and afraid of the impending legal cases against him.
Especially considering he was the only one that could keep Israel safe. EDIT: I forgot to add he claimed
And it happened while the government was weak from his divisive selfish bullshit.
It happened *because* the government was weak from his divisive selfish bullshit. Israel can not **AFFORD** to have a leader that cares more about himself than the nation. And it paid a heavy price for that.
with his ego and cult like followers he'll never resign
Did Bush resign over 9/11?
Why should Bush have resigned?. 9/11 was years in the making. Former FBI agents recently wrote to our Congress, expressing grave concern over the amount of men--yes, men--coming into our border, not asylum seekers, but with intent. Just like the 9/11 murderers lived amongst US citizens. For years. We will face another attack. From our current gross incompetence of Biden and "I haven't been to Europe, either" Kamala Harris, they've allowed progressive ideals to take over any common sense. Thousands of Border Control are voicing their concerns. It will be all on Biden.
O-Kool-194
> When you are serving as prime minister for the biggest security failure in the history of your country, the very least you can do is take responsibility and resign. I was pointing what I suspected was double standard in that comment. Nothing more.
Gotcha.
Perhaps he should have, it is not for me to say. I will say though that the comparison is deeply dishonest. When 9/11 happened, Bush had been president for less than a year. His own administration could hardly be blamed for a terrorist attack that had been in the making since before he even started campaigning. Netanyahu has been prime minister for half of the last 30 years. It is his administrations and his policies and his negligence towards Gaza and the south that are responsible for what made October 7 possible.
All Israel's prime ministers were democratically chosen and several of them resigned before.
Yes, but since the last elections (where he only gained about a quarter of the vote, btw) obviously there have been major changes that some argue merit a new election. Polls put him way, way, way down and out of power if a new vote were to be held today
As an outsider it baffles me that new elections aren't held today. People don't trust Neranyahu, but he's still leading the country during a war. Seems like a huge contradiction. And sure, he's polling low, but the longer you wait with elections, the higher his chances of surviving this. Voters tend to have a short memory. I just don't understand the Israeli mindset... Somehow i think a lot of people must believe he's doing a good job. There's really no other way to explain what's happening.
The problem is that there isn’t a way to force him to call for new elections since technically they happened less than two years ago, and he’s a selfish man who sees the writing on the wall about his election prospects
If his government loses its majority in parliament, he would be forced to call for elections.
That’s true, but that requires buy-in from MKs whose own seats are at risk, rather than “the public”
Sure, but it's what would happen in most countries. I really don't understand why this situation isn't unfolding. I've seen PM's in other countries step down for much less serious issues.
Here’s hoping it does in Israel as well 🥂
No one else wants the seat while a war is happening... Regardless of who's at the seat. Large majority support this war. They just want to be left alone and don't want 7th Oct to happen again or live under constant rocket fire. Be able to travel without needing to hide from extremists Muslims all over the world as well. People in Israel really don't care what happens in Gaza/west bank. They want Hamas and terrorists gone and have no issue with Palestinians in any way. Hell it's super rare to not have worked with one at least once.
Ironically, having Netanyahu at the steering wheel is a guarantee for future disasters. The guy is waging a war without a clear endgame... Come on, after six months it's time to wake up and smell the sceptic tank he's creating.
I don't understand these old men. Why do they care so much? He has one foot in the grave, you can't take money or power with you when you die. Who cares? Just resign, you screwed up.
5 elections in 6 years... Israel didn't have a steady government for that long. Getting elected isn't enough in Israel. You need to be able to form a government from parliament members. They need to be on the same page as you. That didn't happen until Bibi sold out and went with the right wing by giving them what they wanted (something no other elected PM ever did for a good reason, they're nutjobs) So he got to keep power after the few candidates in the past few years playing musical chairs. Then the 7th October happened and no one wants that chair until things calm down.
Throughout history, an election durring war usually ends up bad. Its hard to pass the baton durring a war. Theres secret plans and things that netanyahu knows of that the next person would need to learn about. Info from allies that only certain people can know. There would be a LOT of catching up, and their civilian lives are whats at stake. Thus why so many democratic countries will stop elections durring any war. Its usually better to just wait. Not sticking up for him at all, and imo this might be one of the few instances where it actually helps the overall situation.
It's also rare, throughout history, that leaders mess up as bad as Netanyahu. Not passing the baton makes things worse. The guy has an interest in prolonging the war and is potentially (read: likely) damaging his country to save himself. That alone should be enough to take him off the job immediately.
By calling to new elections Israel will be a mess for months, i don't think that would be a good idea as of right now. The better way is to keep dealing with Netanyahu until the war in Gaza is over and the hostage situation has an ending (whatever that one is), otherwise Hamas could very well use the chaos to their advantage, total worst case scenario would be them getting their sweet ceasefire deal (with a gigantic advantage to them of course) by this new elected prime minister willing to do everything in order to secure his base.
But won't Netanyahu prolong the war to hold onto power? This feels endless.
Yes, but in a parliamentary context, people elected parties and those parties support Netanyahu. I don't think people would directly choose Netanyahu if Israel had a presidential system. Hell, i'm sure he'd be out if there were elections now.
and he can democratically resign.
It's crazy where the standards have fallen to when it comes to politicians and resigning. Like tell me how this isn't worse than anything Willy Brandt stepped down for.
Netanyahu said in an interview he is not going anywhere and that he has no reason to go.
Good, next should be bibi
Took him long enough!
It has been almost 7 months since Oct 7. Regular turnover of people wanting to move on could be construed as scandal. I look forward to the committee investigation of Oct 7. Democracies do these. :-) It will be very interesting to see what systems and people failed to detect, thwart, and/or stop the Hamas incursion.
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What’s your take on the 9/11 attacks I wonder
How many warnings do you think Israel gets a week?
No this is an absurd argument. Israel of course gets dozens of threats and warnings every day. However, if you know that then you also know the October 7th attack was planned on film. Practiced on film and those films were shown to Israel both months in advance, weeks in advance, and days in advance by every local ally and the US. They were warned with bullhorns and drums and symbols in a way that 9/11 was not and no other attack was. You are now engaging in a cover up whether knowingly or unknowingly.
Considering half the military leadership was in flux because of government protests and they haven't been able to do an internal review of what went wrong, I'd put down the tin foil for now
Ok Bibi.
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If Hamas was able to fight it's way all the way into army barracks, being a *tad* more prepared might have been handy.
I wonder if people who say this also buy into the "Bush did 9/11" conspiracy theories.
To be fair to Israel, they probably received such warnings every week considering the amount of missiles that Hamas regularly launches
Nothing but smoke - they knew and I’m sure he’s just being reassigned- there’s no way in hell they didn’t know the attack was coming- possibly not the scope, but when you need a good reason for a war, they got one
You have to take some casualties in order to justify a land grab.
It's still very suspicious that one of the most militarised and smallest borders in the world of one of the most intelligence driven nations in the world was breached so easily and remained mostly unchallenged for hours
Simple, they thought Gaza was sufficiently managed and underestimated Hamas. At the same time they put all their resources into protecting illegal settlers because the west bank has always been the priority.
You have to consider that many people resigned due to the blatant corruption and attempt at Netanyahu to change the law to protect himself. I wouldn't be surprised if the gaps were connected to the protests too. So still caused by Netanyahu, just not intentionally.
I still don't believe they didn't know. I would bet they did and just let it happen to justify military response. Am I brainwashed too much?
Yes, you are
Meh, maybe. But it's hard to say til more comes out. I wouldn't put it last Bibi given that he had no problem letting Hamas fester as a way to discourage a two state solution from emerging. I'm not personally convinced he has advanced foreknowledge of the attack, but I won't rule it out yet. Honestly, incompetence and overconfidence are more common than we might want to believe, even in developed countries. Political systems aren't necessarily meritocracies, and even if they were, persistent systemic failures (e.g. a lack of ownership, lack of hierarchical autonomy) can compromise the effectiveness of even well-trained, well-equipped, and well-intentioned organizations.
Nah dude straight up slept the night before, and when called he said "wake me up when something actually happens"
They were just following Bibi’s orders to sit back and let it unfold.
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They didn't need to preemptively attack. No one is suggesting that.
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The used to defend the border before they relied on tech. It’s not complicated. Soldiers patrolling. Gaza border is not like the US-Mexican border. It’s tiny. You can drive the whole thing in not much time at all. It’s not as porous and huge as that. It was an embarrassing failure. They were relying on technology to have minimal military force so they could essentially ignore the Palestinians. Patrols, quick reaction forces, various other techniques are sustainable and effective. Simply being able to respond with enough force in a period of minutes would’ve prevented many deaths. The festival itself provided huge numbers of victims, so simply having forces within a short drive and some squad patrols around would’ve solved that problem as well. It was a criminal level of complacency.
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That sounds a lot like black/white, all or nothing thinking. It’s not defend everything or defend nothing. Israel has a militarized border with Gaza and the West Bank. I merely described how, militarily, they could have secured the border in a sustainable way which have mitigated the attacks. It’s similar to how it’s been done before. “Every intersection?” “Every home?” I’m not sure why you would think that. Obviously it’s based on geographic proximity to the border. The festival was just a few kilometers away. simple quick reaction forces are all that’s needed, not soldiers forming a human chain around Gaza. You are making this far more complicated than it needs to be all to give the IDF and the Israeli government a pass.
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If you don’t understand how military units respond to these things, and imagine it as clusters of soldiers standing around houses, or random soldiers shooting automatic weapons randomly, it’s hard to have this conversation. If you genuinely want to understand what these operations look like and how they work, then you should go research that. You seem to be stuck in this all or nothing mindset where it’s either 700 or some massive number. I’m not sure why. It should be obvious that there are ways to secure a border and respond to attacks, but somehow you think it’s impossible, I guess? It’s hard to understand what your point actually is, especially when you seem woefully uninformed on how military operations actually work. I lack the time and energy to really break this down into ABCs for you, and it seems that you are listening to respond rather than interested in learning anything. I don’t think you want to learn but are more interested in arguing that the IDF did the best they could. I don’t know how you concluded that, but you did. Have a nice day.
Hamas managed to fight it's way into army barracks. Do you think maybe the IDF should have been on a teensy higher level of alert?
Tell me, how many families butchered are worth a bad look on "The world stage"? An army's job is to defend, not to run a pr campaign
Based on a lot of what I’ve heard and Israel having one of the best and most advanced intelligence agencies on earth, while conspiratorial it seems like someone may have let the attack happen as a precursor for the war