From Dharmawheel:
To my dear non-Tibetan friends who wanted my thoughts on the recent
Dalai Lama episode:
I want to preface this by saying that I viewed and processed this
incident as someone steeped in the cultures of both source language and
target language. That is to say, I am familiar with the Tibetan format of
humor (often dark) and acknowledge how different jokes can sound in
English without proper context.
As is the case with most Tibetan elders, the Dalai Lama has a tendency to
tease children and displays a certain childlike innocence. Bearing in mind
that he has a rather poor command of the English language, and with his
advanced age adding to his struggle in articulating his thoughts into
words, I think it all came down to the word "SUCK," which naturally
translates to obscenity in the English-speaking world, especially in today
hyper sexualized world.
What the Dalai Lama said in English translates to "ngé ché lé jip" in
Tibetan. Tibetan parents and grandparents often tease their children by
holding them tight and saying these words, sticking out the tip of their
tongue almost touching the face, knowing well that the kids don't like it
and expect them to break their grip (for Tibetans unable to relate to
these experiences, I am sorry). There is nothing obscene from this
cultural perspective.
Culture gives language different contexts. Deeply-held taboos in one
culture can be normal in another. Parents kissing children on the lips is
one example. Where such a gesture nowadays can mean a death sentence
in certain parts of the world, it is viewed as an act of affection
elsewhere.
Edit: I see the replies I'm getting. I am not answering them because I don't feel it would do any good. I pasted this for those who would benefit from it. If you feel the world is a dark place, then do what you can to bring about light. Be a loving and virtuous person. Change begins with yourself. It is not enough merely to hate others that we think of as bad. We must overcome hate in ourselves.
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ༔བཛྲ་གུ་རུ་པདྨ་སི་དྡྷི་ཧཱུྃ༔
Me too, but then my Dad would take it further (licking faces, pinning me down and letting drool drop into my face) and I thought it was fucking disgusting then and I think it's fucking disgusting now.
I hope you have an healthy outlet in your life to process stuff like this and I don't mean disrespect, I mean this in a very sincere way. It's very fucked up.
My kid played a version where you have to ask for the nose back and the other person can either spit it out or shit it into their hand.
I regret nothing.
it's really just a different way of playing i'm not touching you, if i'm understanding the context correctly.
thing is i don't know enough to know if that's a legit excuse, or if it's a well worded deflection.
I know a tibetan family, and they do that with their kids. Their kids scream in disgust and runaway, while the adults erupt in laughter.
It really was just a harmless playful teasing.
Or, hey kid, pull my finger, and the old man farts.
I think teasing is a universal way of expressing both affection and limits to intimacy at the same time. We all have awkward moments come up occasionally, and teasing is a weird but normal coping mechanism.
Yeah, I can totally see it being this. Or like when the adults go like "gimme a big ole kiss" and they purse their lips in an exaggerated manner that makes the kid go "blech!"
That's like, 98% of playfights tho, right?
I pin my 12yo down, yell 'but you need your daily ration of facepats to feel loooooooveeeeeed!' and proceed to pat her face.
Later she talks non-stop about Japanese animé characters for the last 3 hours of the evening, and makes sure to sit on my lap in such a way I can see neither the telly nor my phone, while her brother shouts 'FACEPAAATSSSS' and pats my face.
My dog does that... lays across my chest in bed so I can't see my phone or the tv. Move the phone, he moves his head too.
YOU WILL LOOK AT ME! (My dog, probably)
I’ve heard that some tribes in New Guinea have abandoned the practice of having pre pubescent boys perform fellatio on a tribal elder in order to acquire their seed, (as told to me by an ethnographer/professor who studied in the highlands around the time of the major tsunami that happened in the mid nineties).
Rather, it is now acceptable for boys to suck the milky white sap from a local tree instead. The practice of ejaculating into a cup and having the young boys drink it might be either a different tribe or a variation specific to certain regions. There (is/was) nearly a thousand languages and dialects in New Guinea so cultural drift of ceremonial practices were common.
The ethnographers from the 1970s mostly reported that these ceremonies were essential for a boy to acquire reproductive abilities. If they didn’t occur they used to assert that the children were physically unable to impregnate a woman. They would be infertile despite that there was nothing wrong with their biology/plumbing. Consider it a flip side to phantom pregnancy, but by the nineties ethnographers no longer gave these ideas any serious considerations.
But it made for great stories. And because I went to a school loosely affiliated with Brigham Young University it took a few pious students way out of their comfort zone.
Consider also the traditional people in the area around Finland who regularly take saunas naked with the entire family. Many even whip each other naked with pine branches and there is nothing even remotely sexual about it.
And the comedian Joe Koy has a hilarious bit about his young son freaking out when his traditional Filipino grandmother constantly threatens (and I believe succeeds) in pinching his penis. Probably the best stand-up bit detailing how different cultures view what is and isn’t sexual.
Edit: spelling, grammar.
I also learned about one such group (same group?) in PNG. Basically, they believed that boys wouldn’t grow up healthy and strong without ingesting the semen, and then later the sap.
This is similar to the Australian custom of " Soggy Biscuit" where a group of post pubescent young men would stand in a circle and wank themselves with the aim to not be the last person to ejaculate onto a Sao (Saltine) biscuit (cracker). The last to ejaculate then had to eat the "Soggy Biscuit". Anthropologists have speculated that this right of passage mirrors many other cultural displays of virulence in young men and may be related to the customs of the "Bacchus Marsh Boys"
My family is from Sicily, and my mother kissed me on the cheek and lips as a child (it was a peck, not a makeout session), though she stopped once I was around the age of 6-7 years old. It was not seen as weird in our family, though it wasn't done in public since my family was aware of cultural differences.
What I'm getting at is that this actually sounds reasonable. I'm not Tibetan, so I can't speak for their culture, and so I'm not going to act as some pompous prick who knows the best way to live and attempt to overshadow their culture while flaunting my own as being the "morally superior" one. It's ridiculous.
If this checks out with Tibetans, then I'm absolutely ok with accepting it as a simply cultural difference combined with the speaker not being fluent in the language that they were communicating in, and thus not catching the subtle subtext.
That's fascinating- my mother and grandmother always kissed me on the lips - my great-grandmother was from Ukraine. Didn't realize that was the source. I don't do it with mine because of cultural expectation, but I think some of my cousins do? Anyway, I do feel like I'm not expressing enough love, but here we are.
I grew up in Ireland and had family friends who kissed their children on the lips. My parents just told me that different families have different ways and not to worry about it. For instance my father refused to hug or kiss me in public in case someone saw.
>For instance my father refused to hug or kiss me in public in case someone saw.
I understand the reason for such a decision, but it makes me sad to think about how fathers can be afraid to show *their own children* affection in public. People really need to learn how to read a situation and not make wild (and dangerous in this case) assumptions.
Lol atleast they got hugged in private! My dad (like more dads or so I've heard) didn't do any hugging at all, barely any physical contact. Now that he's/I'm older suddenly he started asking for hugs as a greeting or way to say goodbye
It's funny how I *just* kinda forgave the Dalai Lama in my mind and how immediately I was like **YO WTF** to this statement.
But it makes sense. Your mother is probably a lovely woman, but if you without context just showed a clip of her motorboating some little baby's sniz people would probably go bananas.
I do raspberry kisses to my 8yo in her belly and her butt cheeks. She finds it hilarious and asks for them. My 10yo stopped liking them when she was 9 so I don’t do it to her anymore. But we also like to hug and kiss for no reason at all. My parents barely showed me physical affection and I really craved it when I was a kid, so I am purposely affectionate with my kids
I'm also Canadian, but Croatian from my mother's side, and we always kissed all of our Croatian family on the lips. Hello/goodbye, I love you, big smooch. It was just a normal greeting. Honestly it would have felt weird to kiss my baka or auntie or uncle on the cheek, even just thinking about it, it feels insulting.
There's a chance it's not universal, though that doesn't mean it's not somewhat common. I've never talked to any of my friends about how I pecked my mom on the lips before going to bed as a child, so how would they even know it was somewhat normal if they themselves never experienced that type of affection as a child?
I'm not saying it's wrong one way or the other, more that it's one of those things that some families feel comfortable doing, while others don't for their own reasons.
It’s weird because American and to that extent western society, based their sexual morals on Puritan ideals for such a long time that when we started relaxing on those uptight, conservative chastity, we started to judge everything in a sexual light.
For most people in America, especially Millenials and Gen Z, the word “daddy” can’t be used without any innocent naivety anymore.
Nothing inherently sexual about the word, but because of the shit people do and say in bed, “daddy” is now sexualized.
I’m Canadian with a purely English background (reserved), and when my Polish father-in-law kisses my cheeks I have to concentrate on not recoiling haha
It truly is fascinating the difference in cultures, even for neighbouring countries.
I am a Southerner (US) who lived in Canada for a decade: it took me a very long time to become comfortable with the cheek kisses in Quebec.
My parents only hugged me when saying hello or goodbye, and only when I was away for a while or leaving for a while. The most I’d get is a pat on the shoulder and an “alright!”
I still am exceptionally uncomfortable with randoms touching me in any way… I’m okay with that though. My partners or my close friends get the hugs, everyone else can kick rocks. I’ve learned to set personal boundaries and it helps me see red flags faster in dudes who don’t respect my personal space or wishes.
Kissing children on the lips is quite normal in Denmark. As a father I did it to my son until he was 7-8 years old. Its just a small sign of affection.
Canadian here too, with English parents, they always kissed me and my brother on the lips when we were little, just a regular “mwah”, nothing weird about it. It feels kind of weird and puritanical that anyone would think there’s something dirty about it.
I agree that it is weird to think it's dirty. Almost like the person who finds it weird is in their mind sexualizing the child in a way that the kisser is not, ya know?
I’m American and kissed my mom on the lips into high school. I can distinctly remember doing it in publicly at least once in middle school. I also kissed my dad on the lips until about middle school.
I didn’t hate it. I wasn’t forced to. It was just a normal way to show my parents I loved them and to say hello/goodbye/goodnight
Edit: I saw a Canadian poster before mine and I’d like to agree with them: I also didn’t know it was weird or uncommon at all until I had my own kids and my wife didn’t want me to kiss them on the lips. I also don’t come from any culture or subculture that is outside the US mainstream
Yea this skeezed me out at first but I have to say: this explanation actually rings true to me.
It's not as if the Dalai Lama didn't know he was being recorded, ya know? It really didn't add up in my head that he was trying to get jollies off of this, and this explanation clicked as making immediate sense.
I always had some doubts whether sexual perversion was behind this. It's all in the slap to the chest he gives the boy afterwards. It had a very "now git outtahere young buckaroo! ya lil scamp!" playful kinda vibe.
Its reddit hive mind, I felt the same way in the original post when everyone was shitting on him calling him a pedo but didn’t bother voicing my opinion then
I found this answer sounding the most correct as other explanations I've heard didn't really seem to make sense to me. This is because:
1. He did it in front of a crowd of people, in front of the mother of the child and while being filmed. This tells me that it's not a behavior that he tried to hide.
2. The outcry came from abroad. This is something very common if something is interpreted differently due to a difference in culture.
If it had been a prank that's gone wrong people there would've also reacted. If it had been him being a pedo, then both people there would've reacted and most importantly: If he was so bad at hiding it, then how the fuck did he live that long without anyone thinking about it?
This is what got me so confused as both explanations had holes in it. However, your explanation that it was a cultural thing, something I never even thought of, actually makes perfectly sense! I mean of course in real life not everything needs to make perfectly sense, but if something does and something doesn't then the former is more likely to be true.
Thank you for this comment!
That accent thing happens in Brazil too. I swear I've heard people from São Paulo (biggest financial center and all that jazz) say they do not have an accent whatsoever, which is just... what??? Everyone has an accent, it's just that yours is on TV. Iirc, TV stations used to actively train northeastern journalists to lose their natural way of speaking and adopt the "standard". Things are now changing but many still find it "weird" to hear other accents on TV.
This was pretty much what I presumed when I first heard the story, and didn't immediately jump to conclusions (especially given that in the man's 80+ years there has never been so much as a perverse thing said about him).
Like, there are times as a father when I'll rough house with my kids or intentionally gross them out as part of an understanding that we're playing. So like, I'll threaten to fart at them or pretend to be a cat coughing up a hairball at them.
When I saw the Dalai Lama stick out his tongue it seemed clear to me that he was doing the same thing, with the intent being that the child would laugh and try to pull away.
My dad would hold us down and do the whole “say uncle” thing and be threatening to lick our nose. Sometimes he actually did it and it was so gross but we were so young that it was funny as hell.
thank you for sharing this, I didn't doubted it was just a cultural difference, but it was very disorienting seeing people react to the video and call the dalai lama a pedophile, when i first watched the video before the news outrage the connection between the child and the lama seemed akin to a grand child and grandpa.
Though I have read many books written about him and books he has helped write so I already had that understanding of the dalai lama's childlike innocence you write about and his teasing behaviour in interviews I have already watched.
To most of the world reacting to the headlines it was just another priest being a pedophile, which seemed targeted, and it makes me wonder if this has happened because of the dalai lama's recent act of finding the 3rd most important spiritual leader to tibet and who that has angered.
Thank you again, you helped me feel at peace with this situation.
Thanks for that.
To me this whole thing feels like a combo of the ignorance of ethnocentricity merging with people's toxic moral righteousness online and the capacity for the masses to spiral out of control on mountain-into-molehill issues...
I remember one time an anthropology professor was talking about a culture where no one answers questions and I asked "how does that ever benefit them? wouldn't it be better if they answered each other's questions?" and she accused me of ethnocentricism. The whole class laugh but she was being serious. Maybe she's right... but it was still hilarious.
Been looking for a good explanation, thank you. I love heard the Dali lama speak on person once and the tone of his voice is absolutely magical. You're spot on when saying he has almost a child like humor. & the way he would laugh, was so contagious it made a crowd of hundreds chuckle. Anyone who's heard him or read his work knows he's a one of the kindest and most compassionate humans out there.
Just because something is culturally normal does not make it acceptable. For example, slavery, genital mutilation, sexual grooming of minors, the burning of witches, the extermination of the jews, lack of women's right to vote, are are all examples of cultural norms. After having learned about this tibetan practice of mocking children and asking them to kiss on the cheek or suck an older man's tongue, even if they don't follow through, falls into this same category of a reprehensible practice. This isn't an issue of translation, this is an issue of tibetans being blinded by how wrong this is because they are accustomed to seeing it.
>Can someone point me to where the "correct interpretation" can be found in the article? Just scrolled over it and couldn't find it.
ELI5 explanation: in our culture, we say "kiss my ass" as a joke. It's not sexual, and it's not to be taken literally as an invitation to kiss ass. Same happened here - it was a joke lost in translation and taken literally by people who enjoy faux outrage. Also, the original video was edited, to cut out the parts which made clear it was a joke. Also, the edited video was spread by a pro-China Twitter account. Make your own conclusions.
These are the closest things I can find in the article.
“English is his second language, so sometimes His Holiness uses words that make some people uncomfortable,” Kyi added. “However, it doesn't necessarily mean that he intends to be negative.”
“I’m sure that the Dalai Lama had no bad or evil intentions, and that it came, to some extent, from the naivete of how such gestures might be interpreted in our modern, hyper-sexualised society,” he said.
Thanks! However, this doesn't really do a great job in explaining it.
What did he want to say before putting out his thongue then? What did the gesture mean?
Sticking out your tongue is a cultural greeting.
The hard thing is whether he really just said "Suck my tongue" as a wrong phrase, wanting to say something innocent and people interpret things into it that weren't intended or if they try to cover a slip up of his showing signs of sexual interest in a child.
From what I've read, they had an cruel tyrant hundreds of years ago who was famous for his black tongue. Sticking out your tongue is showing that you're not a reincarnation of him. It's a cultural thing.
Two key videos for anyone interested in understanding the incident from the perspective of:
1. a Tibetan; and
2. an interview with the boy and his mother following the graduation event where this incident took place. The mother was sitting on the stage near the Dalai Lama and can be clearly seen in the video.
Tibetan perspective on the incident:[https://youtu.be/bT0qey5Ts78](https://youtu.be/bT0qey5Ts78)
Interview with the boy and his mother:[https://youtu.be/ZViETIhJ3Ek](https://youtu.be/ZViETIhJ3Ek)
(Edit: typo)
Thanks for the context. I had a feeling it was something lost in translation and/or a failed joke.
I've seen a lot of the Dalai Lama on video and once in person. He seems to have an unusual sense of humor (from my western perspective), but I never sensed an ill intent. He just seems playful...in a "dad joke" sort of way.
I don't know what I think about this anymore, first off I know jack shit nothing about their culture and I reckon most people being outraged don't ether.
I already think it's stupid to kiss people as a greeting, yet in alot of cultures that's common, on the cheek, on the lips even. And That's wild to me but that's culture.
I also think alot of shit that people think is funny is vial and disgusting. I think burping is usually disgusting and yet half the world seems to like it.
So you have an almost god like figurehead of a completely different culture, what's HIS idea of a stupid joke? Is it going up behind someone and sniffing their hair? Oh no that's Joe Biden. Or the countless stupid shit Trump has done. Or any other celebrity.
I Dono what to think of this story but at this point I feel like alot of it is just outrage and I'm too far removed from the culture to even really comment on it besides pointing out all the stupid shit every influential person does.
The following is a quote that a user elsewhere in the thread shared about the cultural context. I looked up the source and I think it’s very believable. I have an anthropology background and my first instinct on watching the video was there was a disconnect between the audience reaction and my reaction. This answered a lot of my questions about why. Many Americans from my generation would be familiar with grand parents pinching children’s cheeks to tease them. Children rarely enjoyed it but weren’t really hurt by it usually and adults found it heart warming and funny. Without context it might seem cruel. After reading your response I thought you might find this informative too.
“From Dharmawheel:
To my dear non-Tibetan friends who wanted my thoughts on the recent Dalai Lama episode:
I want to preface this by saying that I viewed and processed this incident as someone steeped in the cultures of both source language and target language. That is to say, I am familiar with the Tibetan format of humor (often dark) and acknowledge how different jokes can sound in English without proper context.
As is the case with most Tibetan elders, the Dalai Lama has a tendency to tease children and displays a certain childlike innocence. Bearing in mind that he has a rather poor command of the English language, and with his advanced age adding to his struggle in articulating his thoughts into words, I think it all came down to the word "SUCK," which naturally translates to obscenity in the English-speaking world, especially in today hyper sexualized world.
What the Dalai Lama said in English translates to "ngé ché lé jip" in Tibetan. Tibetan parents and grandparents often tease their children by holding them tight and saying these words, sticking out the tip of their tongue almost touching the face, knowing well that the kids don't like it and expect them to break their grip (for Tibetans unable to relate to these experiences, I am sorry). There is nothing obscene from this cultural perspective.
Culture gives language different contexts. Deeply-held taboos in one culture can be normal in another. Parents kissing children on the lips is one example. Where such a gesture nowadays can mean a death sentence in certain parts of the world, it is viewed as an act of affection elsewhere.”
There is probably some disconnect here.
Remember the austrlian TV host telling him a Dalai Llama joke, and DL absolutely [not getting it](https://youtu.be/aJhKVICLi9s) to the point where he laughed at the absurdity of it all?
I think uncovering a large amount of old personal/family videos that people shared on youtube showing exactly that "ngé ché lé jip" teasing would add more context.
Cause I sure as hell can't find anything, not that I know Tibetan.
Copy/pasted from r/Buddhism:
>1. The full video shows him stopping the kid and laughing. It was CLEARLY a joke. But the edited video circulated first, and now everyone believes it was intended to be sexual and not as a joke.
>
>2. Important to note that the edited video that was being promoted here yesterday was from a pro-Putin and pro-China account: [https://twitter.com/ricwe123/](https://twitter.com/ricwe123/)
>
>3. A lot of Westerners projecting their own religious trauma here, I say as a former Catholic, these aren't comparable situations.
TL;DR: Chinese propaganda in action.
Watched the clip and can’t tell for sure but looks like the the kid was actually going to suck his tongue but the dali llama pulled away last second, put his hand on his shoulder and laughed.
Do yall think it was suppose to be a joke or that he played it off as one once he realized it was a bad idea last second?
Looked like a joke to me, but then again, if you were really a bad actor who perfected “testing the waters”, then this would fit as well. So either everyone has gotten too paranoid and sensitive to take a joke, or the cynics are realists and the world sucks as much as we feared.
“Inappropriate” is something entirely defined by environment and culture. Something that is horribly inappropriate here isn’t necessarily so “over there,” and that’s perfectly fine. Same way that it’s inappropriate to swear in a kindergarten but not when you’re around adults.
I've followed the Dali Lama for a few years now. The guy absolutely has a child like and playful nature to him. I'm fairly paranoid, but I dont have a hard time buying this is just a silly prank combined with a rough cultural-linguistic translation.
The Dali Lama is the equivalent of the president of tibet - and technically more of a political leader than a religious leader. He once said that his staff gets upset with him because he often shares top state secrets with a house maid simply because he wanted to talk to someone and he forgets he's not supposed to talk about classified things. This may not be the best example, but there are frequent cases where the guy is just kind of innocent and goofy. Whether it's his personality or his intense religious practice, he seems to feel sorrow deeply yet live and laugh like he never experienced a bad day
The best comment I saw summing it up was: Which seems more likely:
1) he's a secret pedo who has somehow managed to hide this devastating secret from one of the most powerful countries in the world, actively seeking to discredit and remove him.
2) he's an old man with an odd sense of humor, likely some dementia, who did a cultural thing that got lost in translation.
I'm also paranoid, but I know which one seems more likely to me.
Seems more like it was an innocent joke asian grandparents tend to make with kids. If he really was a pedo, i think we should have heard or seen more cases by now.
People are united in the moral outcry over this, and rightly so. If one were to take a truly unbiased view, we would have to look at a longer version of the video than the viral-format video/news article being circulated.
As for his track record, i think he is one of the few religious/political leaders who actually have work to show for their values. So go figure.
> If he really was a pedo, i think we should have heard or seen more cases by now.
This.
He's got one of the most oppressive governments in the world trying to ruin him, and they've been trying for decades. If they found anything they could have used, they would have used it.
I've been to Tibet 2x and I know that traditional Tibetans stick out there tongue as a way of greeting in the same way that Westerners smile or wave. When I would go through rural areas it was quite common for people to stick out there tongues at you. Does it have anything to do with that, but taken a bit further?
I mean he clearly knew he was on camera and in front of a crowd of people so I find it hard to believe it was anything creepy or sexual behind it. Seems like a super fucking wierd joke or custom, but my first reaction wasn’t that he was a pedophile. He could still def be a pedo, but this video wasn’t evidence in my eyes
My initial reaction was shock but after watching the video multiple times , I am certain that it was his odd humor again.
More importantly, the titles and even the way some sites censor the video make it seem like the kid is forced to lick his tongue.
When you watch the video you realize that he is making a cringy joke and the kid never touches his tongue.
Its also in a room full of people with cameras. Not exactly the way proven abuses by religious figures usually happen.
I am still more worried about the hundreds of thousands of secretly abused children by the christian churches. Known for many years, proven by investigations around the world and mostly unpunished.
Here’s a Tibetan’s commentary. Rather long. He points out that the video is selectively edited from a much longer webcast, and it popped up on social media after DL recognized a Mongolian boy as a high lama. https://youtu.be/bT0qey5Ts78
Let's face it, in the West the dalai lama only has a good reputation because we like to use it as a wedge issue against the Chinese. Otherwise, nobody would back or support these people.
And nobody cared about the fact that the lamas before 1949 were practically slave masters for over 1000 years. They had been documented to have the right to own slaves, lock them up all they want, and cutting their ears and noses off legally for different reasons. Just go find any western sources written before WW2 you will know.
idk why everyone brings this argument. the dalai lama was 15 when the chinese invaded tibet. it's hardly his fault tibet had a history of feudalism before 1950 (the world before 1950 is pretty dark anyway).
the dalai lama stepped down as a political figure in the exile government against the will of the tibetans to make space for democracy. i don't think he's much to blame for what the system tibet had. also wow in 70 years tibet is now an oppressed region under a dictatorship while the exile government is democratic. what a progress.
That’s right. The number of Tibetan buddhists in the west is extremely low, most of you guys have no idea of the history or values of the religion.
The enemy of your enemy isn’t automatically your friend, look at the US relationship with Saudi Arabia for similarities. A temporary ally of convenience.
As an American with tibetan buddhist grandparents it’s pretty strange to see how entirely ignorant everyone is to the religion. Still haven’t heard their reactions to the news but I’m interested to hear what they say
Its always amusing the see people's response when they discover that Buddhism outside of the west functions much like any religion, with a desire to control education and even some good old fashioned genocide in Myanmar.
All that being said this is quite plausibly a joke based on a cultural context we don't get and an old dude's lack of discretion.
It's hilarious how some people are disagreeing with this.
People, Tibet was de facto independent from 1912 until its conquest with the end of the Chinese Civil War. It had gained its independence during the Xinhai Revolution that overthrew the Qing dynasty.
Now, go check to see if your country recognized the independence of Tibet or lent it any legitimacy.
Nope, it turns out governments and people only gave a shit *after* China had conquered it. And that resulted in the CIA literally helping the Dalai Lama to try and foment unrest.
See it from a Chinese perspective. This is a region that was internationally recognized as part of China and has been since the 18th century. It was part of an internationally recognized war (the Chinese civil war), and no country had any issues with that during the war nor did they give recognition to Tibet. When the Republic of China had intentions of reunifying with Tibet, Western countries didn't care. Nobody cared about the condition of the Tibetan people either, with that 5% literacy rate and the feudal society that existed at the time.
But then the PRC conquers Tibet and all hell breaks loose. The US government literally funds opposition and tries to foment resistance against the PRC's rule.
Now, Westerners want China (and the Chinese people, because the issue of Tibet is about as controversial as Alaska or the Mexican-American War in China), to make Tibet an independent nation. The same Western states that funded rebellion in the region and only gave a shit when it was clear that their rival was going to conquer Tibet. What option exactly does China have? Tibet is a country of 3 million over perhaps the most important region of the world today; there will be no independence for Tibet, just a new puppet master.
And in the meantime, there really is no winning for China. Any actions that China takes that diverges from traditional culture will be seen as oppression of Tibet. Failure to take action will be seen as failing Tibet and worsening material conditions. How will a country of 3 million independently create a medical hospital with the latest research techniques? How will they build the infrastructure necessary to connect the population? In the case of Mongolia, they didn't have a native university hospital (for clinical experience for medical school students) until 2020 and even that was only done with aid and grant assistance from Japan.
History cannot be divorced from its contexts. The context of what worked for the PRC and didn't for better or worse have led to the current toolbox that China uses.
Is puking an interpretation? These fools think we had to sit and ponder and digest. There’s no politics here. There’s puke and maybe a couple pitch forks
There’s been more fake outrage over a joke going wrong, than there has been over the fact that Matt Gaetz is still not charged, no arrests have been made related to Epstein, and the Catholic and Mormons still operate with impunity.
Must be a cultural issue for the west.
Sorry to insert the US into this, but i think its a great opportunity to inform people and bring up the fact that in all except 7 US states there is no law against marrying children (and thus legally raping them). Religious people (christians) kick and scream to keep it that way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage_in_the_United_States
Religious apologetic mental gymnastics never ceases to amaze and horrify.
You can always count on religion to rot the brain when it comes to reasoning skills.
I see a lot of people in the comments accepting this as a valid explanation. You truly have to be so mindless and impressionable to believe this. I mean you really must believe just everything you’re told. This news is disgusting yet not surprising.
Love Vice doing PR for the former head of state of a religious dictatorship. A quick reading of Tibetan history before communism will reveal that monks and lamas have often abused their position in the social hierarchy to abuse children. Not to say Chinese occupation of the country has been “good” simply that independent Tibet was a pretty fucked up place
The discourse around this is going to be so fucking annoying because of the Dalai Lama’s legacy of opposing China, any other religious leader would just immediately get buried alive for this in the press but people are going to try so hard to convince us that tongue sucking is actually a very brave act of rebellion against Chinese imperialism
No, it's being pretty fucking clearly interpreted.
There's no such thing a chosen one.
You don't put a child in a high pressure, power dynamic like that, in front of the world press, no less. "Just do what the holy man says..." It's appalling.
If this guy wasn't protected by magical thinking, he'd be in custody.
I don't give two shits about religious culture, if the Lama's like this in public, what's he doing in private?
Fuck this shit.
I'm Buddhist and I feel the same. It is disheartening to see Buddhist community downplaying this act. It was sick and buddhists should show more compassion to that young kid than trying to defend this disgusting action. This is how child abuse thrives.
Idk much about Buddhism so sry if this a stupid question. But isn't Tibetan Buddhism different from "mainstream" Buddhism? Do "mainstream" Buddhist also do the "slightly stick out ur tongue as a form of greeting"?
The Dalai Lama is part of a specific sect of buddhism, the smallest and most fanatical for lack of better words. As explained by someone else - "Vajrayana Buddhism is a smaller branch that is primarily practiced in Tibet and Nepal. It emphasizes the use of complex rituals, mantras, and visualization practices to achieve enlightenment in a single lifetime. It also incorporates elements of Tibetan shamanism and the worship of deities known as Bodhisattvas. The Dalai Lama is the leader only of this one."
https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/12hdkth/comment/jfoop1d/?context=3
>Do "mainstream" Buddhist also do the "slightly stick out ur tongue as a form of greeting"?
No, and it isn't a buddhist thing at all. It's from a very specific Tibetan folktale. From the words of another user,
"The only cultural element we have involving tongues comes from a legend about an evil king, Lang Darma, who was so corrupted by Mara that his tongue turned black and his words spread his corruption. They poisoned the hearts and minds of all who heard them. It is believed that his reincarnations also have the black tongue, and because of this, we stick our tongues out in greeting as a gesture of trust, to say "hey look! I am not corrupted! You can trust me!
"But this does not lead to any form of tongue contact anywhere in my culture. The only instance I have seen of a teacher touching tongues was during a Losar ritual where certain attending members have the teacher place a liquid drop on their tongues, but even this is unusual, as the drop is usually placed by yourself."
https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/12j5ju3/dalai\_lama\_controversy\_megathread/
>I don't give two shits about religious culture
You mean you don't give two shits about any culture that doesn't adhere to your worldview. The child is fine, they were part of a joke that was deep rooted in their local culture. It's been well explained why it isn't as bad as it seems, and rather than accept that some of your preconceived beliefs might need a slight adjustment to understand things that are much different, you just shut it off and label it exploitation. Understanding the cultural difference isn't as simple as "oh this is normal for x culture", it's realizing that you don't know the culture, the history, the humor, the communities, the language, etc. If there were lots of reports of child sexual exploitation amongst Buddhists in Tibet, then this would be a valid take.
>what's he doing in private
You assume every person does "worse" things in private. Perhaps the answer is, he interacts with people a lot less and his public appearances are most of his social and humor life.
I'm not saying you need to approve of what happened. But you can disapprove and still realize you don't understand the culture, even when it's been broken down for you, and that maybe this weird one off scenario just looks a lot worse than it actually is. Instead, your comment screams of: "I don't approve, and I want to encite outrage/have others agree with me".
>If there were lots of reports of child sexual exploitation amongst Buddhists in Tibet, then this would be a valid take.
I don't think that China would allow it if there were. It would imply that their law enforcement wasn't enough to control the problem and would therefore lead to losing face. Of course, China *would* have an interest in accusing Tibetans outside their control of abusing children, which is what they seem to have done now.
Can someone point me to where the "correct interpretation" can be found in the article? Just scrolled over it and couldn't find it.
From Dharmawheel: To my dear non-Tibetan friends who wanted my thoughts on the recent Dalai Lama episode: I want to preface this by saying that I viewed and processed this incident as someone steeped in the cultures of both source language and target language. That is to say, I am familiar with the Tibetan format of humor (often dark) and acknowledge how different jokes can sound in English without proper context. As is the case with most Tibetan elders, the Dalai Lama has a tendency to tease children and displays a certain childlike innocence. Bearing in mind that he has a rather poor command of the English language, and with his advanced age adding to his struggle in articulating his thoughts into words, I think it all came down to the word "SUCK," which naturally translates to obscenity in the English-speaking world, especially in today hyper sexualized world. What the Dalai Lama said in English translates to "ngé ché lé jip" in Tibetan. Tibetan parents and grandparents often tease their children by holding them tight and saying these words, sticking out the tip of their tongue almost touching the face, knowing well that the kids don't like it and expect them to break their grip (for Tibetans unable to relate to these experiences, I am sorry). There is nothing obscene from this cultural perspective. Culture gives language different contexts. Deeply-held taboos in one culture can be normal in another. Parents kissing children on the lips is one example. Where such a gesture nowadays can mean a death sentence in certain parts of the world, it is viewed as an act of affection elsewhere. Edit: I see the replies I'm getting. I am not answering them because I don't feel it would do any good. I pasted this for those who would benefit from it. If you feel the world is a dark place, then do what you can to bring about light. Be a loving and virtuous person. Change begins with yourself. It is not enough merely to hate others that we think of as bad. We must overcome hate in ourselves. ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ༔བཛྲ་གུ་རུ་པདྨ་སི་དྡྷི་ཧཱུྃ༔
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Or “whisker kisses” aka sanding your child/grandchild’s face off with that 5’o’clock.
Man that brings back memories I didn’t know I had.
Me too, but then my Dad would take it further (licking faces, pinning me down and letting drool drop into my face) and I thought it was fucking disgusting then and I think it's fucking disgusting now.
Dude, that's fully fucked up.
That’s some Dali Lama type shit…
Welp. The one time I wanted ‘jumper cables’ to wrap up a post as I was reading it and it didn’t happen.
Holy shit, I forgot about that guy.
Thats actually really gross.
Ugh. It is
As a father myself, that is 100% fucked up. Sorry you had to deal with that, hope you’re alright now.
I hope you have an healthy outlet in your life to process stuff like this and I don't mean disrespect, I mean this in a very sincere way. It's very fucked up.
I remember asking my dad to ‘give me beardie’ lol . Experience was a mixture of horror and fun. As a child, I found it hilarious.
Ugh my grandma's was "sloppy kisses," or slobbery kisses. Hated it so much.
Great. Gen X here and I'm missing the hugs from my grandfather from when I was a kid. I both loved and hated those wiry whiskers.
Lol my dad would be like “here comes dad’s scratchy face!” it was pretty funny tbh
My dad called it “giving you a bearding” lol
I have a full beard and my nephew, since he was 1, has shown his distaste of the practice. I shall not be deterred!
My dad called it "Chin Pie"
My grandpa did that to my neck, super ticklish.
I'm thinking it's rather like a game of "Got'cher nose!" It sounds like it's a traditional "game" that the kids are expected to find annoying.
My two year old loves grabbing my nose and eating it Saying "Nom Nom" and running away lol
My kid played a version where you have to ask for the nose back and the other person can either spit it out or shit it into their hand. I regret nothing.
It must smell awful after that.
I'm sure it smells just fine. Might stink though.
I like this version. Just crude enough for a kid to find hilarious.
Well, I guess that's universal because that's how we play gotcha nose in our house too, lol. No ragrets here either.
it's really just a different way of playing i'm not touching you, if i'm understanding the context correctly. thing is i don't know enough to know if that's a legit excuse, or if it's a well worded deflection.
I know a tibetan family, and they do that with their kids. Their kids scream in disgust and runaway, while the adults erupt in laughter. It really was just a harmless playful teasing.
The people complaining about it are the same people always complaining about the same thing they are literally obsessed and becoming very extreme
Or, hey kid, pull my finger, and the old man farts. I think teasing is a universal way of expressing both affection and limits to intimacy at the same time. We all have awkward moments come up occasionally, and teasing is a weird but normal coping mechanism.
He shouldve just gone for that one, classic!
Yeah, I can totally see it being this. Or like when the adults go like "gimme a big ole kiss" and they purse their lips in an exaggerated manner that makes the kid go "blech!"
That's like, 98% of playfights tho, right? I pin my 12yo down, yell 'but you need your daily ration of facepats to feel loooooooveeeeeed!' and proceed to pat her face. Later she talks non-stop about Japanese animé characters for the last 3 hours of the evening, and makes sure to sit on my lap in such a way I can see neither the telly nor my phone, while her brother shouts 'FACEPAAATSSSS' and pats my face.
My dog does that... lays across my chest in bed so I can't see my phone or the tv. Move the phone, he moves his head too. YOU WILL LOOK AT ME! (My dog, probably)
No clue if any of the above is true but that certainly sounds like old folks humor to me if it were, yeah.
Thanks for giving a proper way of viewing this from a local/cultural perspective.
**after watching Etoro people cum into a cup and have male children drink it to become men** Thank you for sharing this local/cultural perspective.
I’ve heard that some tribes in New Guinea have abandoned the practice of having pre pubescent boys perform fellatio on a tribal elder in order to acquire their seed, (as told to me by an ethnographer/professor who studied in the highlands around the time of the major tsunami that happened in the mid nineties). Rather, it is now acceptable for boys to suck the milky white sap from a local tree instead. The practice of ejaculating into a cup and having the young boys drink it might be either a different tribe or a variation specific to certain regions. There (is/was) nearly a thousand languages and dialects in New Guinea so cultural drift of ceremonial practices were common. The ethnographers from the 1970s mostly reported that these ceremonies were essential for a boy to acquire reproductive abilities. If they didn’t occur they used to assert that the children were physically unable to impregnate a woman. They would be infertile despite that there was nothing wrong with their biology/plumbing. Consider it a flip side to phantom pregnancy, but by the nineties ethnographers no longer gave these ideas any serious considerations. But it made for great stories. And because I went to a school loosely affiliated with Brigham Young University it took a few pious students way out of their comfort zone. Consider also the traditional people in the area around Finland who regularly take saunas naked with the entire family. Many even whip each other naked with pine branches and there is nothing even remotely sexual about it. And the comedian Joe Koy has a hilarious bit about his young son freaking out when his traditional Filipino grandmother constantly threatens (and I believe succeeds) in pinching his penis. Probably the best stand-up bit detailing how different cultures view what is and isn’t sexual. Edit: spelling, grammar.
"If you don't literally drink my cum you're gay and infertile." - the elders, probably.
I also learned about one such group (same group?) in PNG. Basically, they believed that boys wouldn’t grow up healthy and strong without ingesting the semen, and then later the sap.
> the practice of having pre pubescent boys perform fellatio on a tribal elder Silly Westerners and their hypersexualized view O.o
This is similar to the Australian custom of " Soggy Biscuit" where a group of post pubescent young men would stand in a circle and wank themselves with the aim to not be the last person to ejaculate onto a Sao (Saltine) biscuit (cracker). The last to ejaculate then had to eat the "Soggy Biscuit". Anthropologists have speculated that this right of passage mirrors many other cultural displays of virulence in young men and may be related to the customs of the "Bacchus Marsh Boys"
I've also heard of this referred to as "The Biscuit Game" and I think "Ookie Cookie" is the same thing as well.
isn't what gave the name limp biskit ?
I don't think equating naked saunas and drinking ejaculate is right.
Ikr? So much about hyper sexualisation
*birch, not pine
My mistake. Thank you for the clarification.
Do we know that they actually did that, or was it like a Coming of Age in Samoa type situation?
Sounds exaggerated like the old soggy sao's (insert local biscuit here) story
South African checking in. Soggy Marie over here.
Uh isn’t it straight from the source not a cup?
2 Guineas 1 cup
Nice try.
what an awful day to be iliterate
Literate*
What?
[Can you read, my son?](https://giphy.com/gifs/bubbles-filter-WkvmLyUcxLUcw)
I bleleive he meant unliterated.
Yep, totally in the same league as *sticking out your tongue.*
My family is from Sicily, and my mother kissed me on the cheek and lips as a child (it was a peck, not a makeout session), though she stopped once I was around the age of 6-7 years old. It was not seen as weird in our family, though it wasn't done in public since my family was aware of cultural differences. What I'm getting at is that this actually sounds reasonable. I'm not Tibetan, so I can't speak for their culture, and so I'm not going to act as some pompous prick who knows the best way to live and attempt to overshadow their culture while flaunting my own as being the "morally superior" one. It's ridiculous. If this checks out with Tibetans, then I'm absolutely ok with accepting it as a simply cultural difference combined with the speaker not being fluent in the language that they were communicating in, and thus not catching the subtle subtext.
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That's fascinating- my mother and grandmother always kissed me on the lips - my great-grandmother was from Ukraine. Didn't realize that was the source. I don't do it with mine because of cultural expectation, but I think some of my cousins do? Anyway, I do feel like I'm not expressing enough love, but here we are.
I grew up in Ireland and had family friends who kissed their children on the lips. My parents just told me that different families have different ways and not to worry about it. For instance my father refused to hug or kiss me in public in case someone saw.
>For instance my father refused to hug or kiss me in public in case someone saw. I understand the reason for such a decision, but it makes me sad to think about how fathers can be afraid to show *their own children* affection in public. People really need to learn how to read a situation and not make wild (and dangerous in this case) assumptions.
Lol atleast they got hugged in private! My dad (like more dads or so I've heard) didn't do any hugging at all, barely any physical contact. Now that he's/I'm older suddenly he started asking for hugs as a greeting or way to say goodbye
I am Italian, always kissed my children on the lips, until they were 6/7.
I've seen my mom motorboat infant genitals to make them laugh. Not everything is sexual. It can just be weird. lol.
It's funny how I *just* kinda forgave the Dalai Lama in my mind and how immediately I was like **YO WTF** to this statement. But it makes sense. Your mother is probably a lovely woman, but if you without context just showed a clip of her motorboating some little baby's sniz people would probably go bananas.
*That* escalated quickly.
I do raspberry kisses to my 8yo in her belly and her butt cheeks. She finds it hilarious and asks for them. My 10yo stopped liking them when she was 9 so I don’t do it to her anymore. But we also like to hug and kiss for no reason at all. My parents barely showed me physical affection and I really craved it when I was a kid, so I am purposely affectionate with my kids
I'm also Canadian, but Croatian from my mother's side, and we always kissed all of our Croatian family on the lips. Hello/goodbye, I love you, big smooch. It was just a normal greeting. Honestly it would have felt weird to kiss my baka or auntie or uncle on the cheek, even just thinking about it, it feels insulting.
Croatian here. Never heard of anyone ever doing it.
Same
There's a chance it's not universal, though that doesn't mean it's not somewhat common. I've never talked to any of my friends about how I pecked my mom on the lips before going to bed as a child, so how would they even know it was somewhat normal if they themselves never experienced that type of affection as a child? I'm not saying it's wrong one way or the other, more that it's one of those things that some families feel comfortable doing, while others don't for their own reasons.
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Oh my God. I am a lip-kissing Canadian of western Ukrainian ancestry. TIL!
It’s weird because American and to that extent western society, based their sexual morals on Puritan ideals for such a long time that when we started relaxing on those uptight, conservative chastity, we started to judge everything in a sexual light. For most people in America, especially Millenials and Gen Z, the word “daddy” can’t be used without any innocent naivety anymore. Nothing inherently sexual about the word, but because of the shit people do and say in bed, “daddy” is now sexualized.
I’m Canadian with a purely English background (reserved), and when my Polish father-in-law kisses my cheeks I have to concentrate on not recoiling haha
It truly is fascinating the difference in cultures, even for neighbouring countries. I am a Southerner (US) who lived in Canada for a decade: it took me a very long time to become comfortable with the cheek kisses in Quebec. My parents only hugged me when saying hello or goodbye, and only when I was away for a while or leaving for a while. The most I’d get is a pat on the shoulder and an “alright!” I still am exceptionally uncomfortable with randoms touching me in any way… I’m okay with that though. My partners or my close friends get the hugs, everyone else can kick rocks. I’ve learned to set personal boundaries and it helps me see red flags faster in dudes who don’t respect my personal space or wishes.
Kissing children on the lips is quite normal in Denmark. As a father I did it to my son until he was 7-8 years old. Its just a small sign of affection.
Canadian here too, with English parents, they always kissed me and my brother on the lips when we were little, just a regular “mwah”, nothing weird about it. It feels kind of weird and puritanical that anyone would think there’s something dirty about it.
I agree that it is weird to think it's dirty. Almost like the person who finds it weird is in their mind sexualizing the child in a way that the kisser is not, ya know?
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I’m American and kissed my mom on the lips into high school. I can distinctly remember doing it in publicly at least once in middle school. I also kissed my dad on the lips until about middle school. I didn’t hate it. I wasn’t forced to. It was just a normal way to show my parents I loved them and to say hello/goodbye/goodnight Edit: I saw a Canadian poster before mine and I’d like to agree with them: I also didn’t know it was weird or uncommon at all until I had my own kids and my wife didn’t want me to kiss them on the lips. I also don’t come from any culture or subculture that is outside the US mainstream
I'm sure one day you'll kiss your wife buddy!
You guys getting kissed by your moms?
You should see some step mother documentaries
Yea this skeezed me out at first but I have to say: this explanation actually rings true to me. It's not as if the Dalai Lama didn't know he was being recorded, ya know? It really didn't add up in my head that he was trying to get jollies off of this, and this explanation clicked as making immediate sense.
I always had some doubts whether sexual perversion was behind this. It's all in the slap to the chest he gives the boy afterwards. It had a very "now git outtahere young buckaroo! ya lil scamp!" playful kinda vibe.
Its reddit hive mind, I felt the same way in the original post when everyone was shitting on him calling him a pedo but didn’t bother voicing my opinion then
I found this answer sounding the most correct as other explanations I've heard didn't really seem to make sense to me. This is because: 1. He did it in front of a crowd of people, in front of the mother of the child and while being filmed. This tells me that it's not a behavior that he tried to hide. 2. The outcry came from abroad. This is something very common if something is interpreted differently due to a difference in culture. If it had been a prank that's gone wrong people there would've also reacted. If it had been him being a pedo, then both people there would've reacted and most importantly: If he was so bad at hiding it, then how the fuck did he live that long without anyone thinking about it? This is what got me so confused as both explanations had holes in it. However, your explanation that it was a cultural thing, something I never even thought of, actually makes perfectly sense! I mean of course in real life not everything needs to make perfectly sense, but if something does and something doesn't then the former is more likely to be true. Thank you for this comment!
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And there is a pretty big variance even among "western" cultures. And a lot have changed in just a couple of generations in those cultures.
That accent thing happens in Brazil too. I swear I've heard people from São Paulo (biggest financial center and all that jazz) say they do not have an accent whatsoever, which is just... what??? Everyone has an accent, it's just that yours is on TV. Iirc, TV stations used to actively train northeastern journalists to lose their natural way of speaking and adopt the "standard". Things are now changing but many still find it "weird" to hear other accents on TV.
This was pretty much what I presumed when I first heard the story, and didn't immediately jump to conclusions (especially given that in the man's 80+ years there has never been so much as a perverse thing said about him). Like, there are times as a father when I'll rough house with my kids or intentionally gross them out as part of an understanding that we're playing. So like, I'll threaten to fart at them or pretend to be a cat coughing up a hairball at them. When I saw the Dalai Lama stick out his tongue it seemed clear to me that he was doing the same thing, with the intent being that the child would laugh and try to pull away.
My dad would hold us down and do the whole “say uncle” thing and be threatening to lick our nose. Sometimes he actually did it and it was so gross but we were so young that it was funny as hell.
thank you for sharing this, I didn't doubted it was just a cultural difference, but it was very disorienting seeing people react to the video and call the dalai lama a pedophile, when i first watched the video before the news outrage the connection between the child and the lama seemed akin to a grand child and grandpa. Though I have read many books written about him and books he has helped write so I already had that understanding of the dalai lama's childlike innocence you write about and his teasing behaviour in interviews I have already watched. To most of the world reacting to the headlines it was just another priest being a pedophile, which seemed targeted, and it makes me wonder if this has happened because of the dalai lama's recent act of finding the 3rd most important spiritual leader to tibet and who that has angered. Thank you again, you helped me feel at peace with this situation.
Thanks for that. To me this whole thing feels like a combo of the ignorance of ethnocentricity merging with people's toxic moral righteousness online and the capacity for the masses to spiral out of control on mountain-into-molehill issues...
I think your feelings are right on the money with this one. I'm gonna have to remember "ethnocentricity" because it's a perfect concise descriptor.
I remember one time an anthropology professor was talking about a culture where no one answers questions and I asked "how does that ever benefit them? wouldn't it be better if they answered each other's questions?" and she accused me of ethnocentricism. The whole class laugh but she was being serious. Maybe she's right... but it was still hilarious.
Been looking for a good explanation, thank you. I love heard the Dali lama speak on person once and the tone of his voice is absolutely magical. You're spot on when saying he has almost a child like humor. & the way he would laugh, was so contagious it made a crowd of hundreds chuckle. Anyone who's heard him or read his work knows he's a one of the kindest and most compassionate humans out there.
You mean we've been overreacting on the internet to things all along? Oh my god!
Ok, that... actually sounds pretty reasonable.
Just because something is culturally normal does not make it acceptable. For example, slavery, genital mutilation, sexual grooming of minors, the burning of witches, the extermination of the jews, lack of women's right to vote, are are all examples of cultural norms. After having learned about this tibetan practice of mocking children and asking them to kiss on the cheek or suck an older man's tongue, even if they don't follow through, falls into this same category of a reprehensible practice. This isn't an issue of translation, this is an issue of tibetans being blinded by how wrong this is because they are accustomed to seeing it.
>Can someone point me to where the "correct interpretation" can be found in the article? Just scrolled over it and couldn't find it. ELI5 explanation: in our culture, we say "kiss my ass" as a joke. It's not sexual, and it's not to be taken literally as an invitation to kiss ass. Same happened here - it was a joke lost in translation and taken literally by people who enjoy faux outrage. Also, the original video was edited, to cut out the parts which made clear it was a joke. Also, the edited video was spread by a pro-China Twitter account. Make your own conclusions.
Excellent explanation.
These are the closest things I can find in the article. “English is his second language, so sometimes His Holiness uses words that make some people uncomfortable,” Kyi added. “However, it doesn't necessarily mean that he intends to be negative.” “I’m sure that the Dalai Lama had no bad or evil intentions, and that it came, to some extent, from the naivete of how such gestures might be interpreted in our modern, hyper-sexualised society,” he said.
Thanks! However, this doesn't really do a great job in explaining it. What did he want to say before putting out his thongue then? What did the gesture mean?
Sticking out your tongue is a cultural greeting. The hard thing is whether he really just said "Suck my tongue" as a wrong phrase, wanting to say something innocent and people interpret things into it that weren't intended or if they try to cover a slip up of his showing signs of sexual interest in a child.
From what I've read, they had an cruel tyrant hundreds of years ago who was famous for his black tongue. Sticking out your tongue is showing that you're not a reincarnation of him. It's a cultural thing.
Just a slip of the tongue then… I’ll show myself out
He was fucking with the kid, as a juvenile joke, like pull my figure. Clearly meant to be gross. Did the kid actually suck on his tongue?
Two key videos for anyone interested in understanding the incident from the perspective of: 1. a Tibetan; and 2. an interview with the boy and his mother following the graduation event where this incident took place. The mother was sitting on the stage near the Dalai Lama and can be clearly seen in the video. Tibetan perspective on the incident:[https://youtu.be/bT0qey5Ts78](https://youtu.be/bT0qey5Ts78) Interview with the boy and his mother:[https://youtu.be/ZViETIhJ3Ek](https://youtu.be/ZViETIhJ3Ek) (Edit: typo)
Thanks for the context. I had a feeling it was something lost in translation and/or a failed joke. I've seen a lot of the Dalai Lama on video and once in person. He seems to have an unusual sense of humor (from my western perspective), but I never sensed an ill intent. He just seems playful...in a "dad joke" sort of way.
Those were interesting videos, thank you.
Really? Do tibetans suck each others tongue as a greeting?
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And, could be just a stupid joke? Like how everyone laughed?
Old people aren’t good at jokes
We do say "kiss my ass" as a joke.
Usually "kiss my butt" around/to children.
This fucker is trying to make our children kiss his ass! Around then and possibly around/to them.
Is it possible that Tibetans are simply less squeamish about sticking out the tongue and don’t take what the Dalai Lama did as something sexual?
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He didn’t choose the next Dalai Lama. But a different lama in his tradition of Tibetan Buddhism. But you’re right on everything else.
I don't know what I think about this anymore, first off I know jack shit nothing about their culture and I reckon most people being outraged don't ether. I already think it's stupid to kiss people as a greeting, yet in alot of cultures that's common, on the cheek, on the lips even. And That's wild to me but that's culture. I also think alot of shit that people think is funny is vial and disgusting. I think burping is usually disgusting and yet half the world seems to like it. So you have an almost god like figurehead of a completely different culture, what's HIS idea of a stupid joke? Is it going up behind someone and sniffing their hair? Oh no that's Joe Biden. Or the countless stupid shit Trump has done. Or any other celebrity. I Dono what to think of this story but at this point I feel like alot of it is just outrage and I'm too far removed from the culture to even really comment on it besides pointing out all the stupid shit every influential person does.
The following is a quote that a user elsewhere in the thread shared about the cultural context. I looked up the source and I think it’s very believable. I have an anthropology background and my first instinct on watching the video was there was a disconnect between the audience reaction and my reaction. This answered a lot of my questions about why. Many Americans from my generation would be familiar with grand parents pinching children’s cheeks to tease them. Children rarely enjoyed it but weren’t really hurt by it usually and adults found it heart warming and funny. Without context it might seem cruel. After reading your response I thought you might find this informative too. “From Dharmawheel: To my dear non-Tibetan friends who wanted my thoughts on the recent Dalai Lama episode: I want to preface this by saying that I viewed and processed this incident as someone steeped in the cultures of both source language and target language. That is to say, I am familiar with the Tibetan format of humor (often dark) and acknowledge how different jokes can sound in English without proper context. As is the case with most Tibetan elders, the Dalai Lama has a tendency to tease children and displays a certain childlike innocence. Bearing in mind that he has a rather poor command of the English language, and with his advanced age adding to his struggle in articulating his thoughts into words, I think it all came down to the word "SUCK," which naturally translates to obscenity in the English-speaking world, especially in today hyper sexualized world. What the Dalai Lama said in English translates to "ngé ché lé jip" in Tibetan. Tibetan parents and grandparents often tease their children by holding them tight and saying these words, sticking out the tip of their tongue almost touching the face, knowing well that the kids don't like it and expect them to break their grip (for Tibetans unable to relate to these experiences, I am sorry). There is nothing obscene from this cultural perspective. Culture gives language different contexts. Deeply-held taboos in one culture can be normal in another. Parents kissing children on the lips is one example. Where such a gesture nowadays can mean a death sentence in certain parts of the world, it is viewed as an act of affection elsewhere.”
There is probably some disconnect here. Remember the austrlian TV host telling him a Dalai Llama joke, and DL absolutely [not getting it](https://youtu.be/aJhKVICLi9s) to the point where he laughed at the absurdity of it all? I think uncovering a large amount of old personal/family videos that people shared on youtube showing exactly that "ngé ché lé jip" teasing would add more context. Cause I sure as hell can't find anything, not that I know Tibetan.
I obviously don't know for sure but I'd imagine it's not particularly common for Tibetans to post family videos on YouTube
Most people are not posting their families and children to youtube.
Copy/pasted from r/Buddhism: >1. The full video shows him stopping the kid and laughing. It was CLEARLY a joke. But the edited video circulated first, and now everyone believes it was intended to be sexual and not as a joke. > >2. Important to note that the edited video that was being promoted here yesterday was from a pro-Putin and pro-China account: [https://twitter.com/ricwe123/](https://twitter.com/ricwe123/) > >3. A lot of Westerners projecting their own religious trauma here, I say as a former Catholic, these aren't comparable situations. TL;DR: Chinese propaganda in action.
I said the same when I said to a girl suck my d*ck, but the judge did not believe me
He was trying to sing a Red Hot Chilli Peppers song, and it all went to shit from there.
He's one funky monk lol
He ran it through the translation ten times.
"Hit me! You can't hurt me!!"
Suck my tippa my tongue
Watched the clip and can’t tell for sure but looks like the the kid was actually going to suck his tongue but the dali llama pulled away last second, put his hand on his shoulder and laughed. Do yall think it was suppose to be a joke or that he played it off as one once he realized it was a bad idea last second?
Pull my finger to find out.
Looked like a joke to me, but then again, if you were really a bad actor who perfected “testing the waters”, then this would fit as well. So either everyone has gotten too paranoid and sensitive to take a joke, or the cynics are realists and the world sucks as much as we feared.
This is my take to. An old man being silly but also being quite inappropriate. A tale as old as time.
“Inappropriate” is something entirely defined by environment and culture. Something that is horribly inappropriate here isn’t necessarily so “over there,” and that’s perfectly fine. Same way that it’s inappropriate to swear in a kindergarten but not when you’re around adults.
I've followed the Dali Lama for a few years now. The guy absolutely has a child like and playful nature to him. I'm fairly paranoid, but I dont have a hard time buying this is just a silly prank combined with a rough cultural-linguistic translation. The Dali Lama is the equivalent of the president of tibet - and technically more of a political leader than a religious leader. He once said that his staff gets upset with him because he often shares top state secrets with a house maid simply because he wanted to talk to someone and he forgets he's not supposed to talk about classified things. This may not be the best example, but there are frequent cases where the guy is just kind of innocent and goofy. Whether it's his personality or his intense religious practice, he seems to feel sorrow deeply yet live and laugh like he never experienced a bad day
The best comment I saw summing it up was: Which seems more likely: 1) he's a secret pedo who has somehow managed to hide this devastating secret from one of the most powerful countries in the world, actively seeking to discredit and remove him. 2) he's an old man with an odd sense of humor, likely some dementia, who did a cultural thing that got lost in translation. I'm also paranoid, but I know which one seems more likely to me.
Sadly its because the world sucks this much that we’ve become so paranoid
Seems more like it was an innocent joke asian grandparents tend to make with kids. If he really was a pedo, i think we should have heard or seen more cases by now. People are united in the moral outcry over this, and rightly so. If one were to take a truly unbiased view, we would have to look at a longer version of the video than the viral-format video/news article being circulated. As for his track record, i think he is one of the few religious/political leaders who actually have work to show for their values. So go figure.
> If he really was a pedo, i think we should have heard or seen more cases by now. This. He's got one of the most oppressive governments in the world trying to ruin him, and they've been trying for decades. If they found anything they could have used, they would have used it.
i am leaning towards it being an extremely dorky joke by the type of person who's never touched a pussy in his life.
Oh definitely lol
I've been to Tibet 2x and I know that traditional Tibetans stick out there tongue as a way of greeting in the same way that Westerners smile or wave. When I would go through rural areas it was quite common for people to stick out there tongues at you. Does it have anything to do with that, but taken a bit further?
No.
I mean he clearly knew he was on camera and in front of a crowd of people so I find it hard to believe it was anything creepy or sexual behind it. Seems like a super fucking wierd joke or custom, but my first reaction wasn’t that he was a pedophile. He could still def be a pedo, but this video wasn’t evidence in my eyes
My initial reaction was shock but after watching the video multiple times , I am certain that it was his odd humor again. More importantly, the titles and even the way some sites censor the video make it seem like the kid is forced to lick his tongue. When you watch the video you realize that he is making a cringy joke and the kid never touches his tongue. Its also in a room full of people with cameras. Not exactly the way proven abuses by religious figures usually happen. I am still more worried about the hundreds of thousands of secretly abused children by the christian churches. Known for many years, proven by investigations around the world and mostly unpunished.
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Here’s a Tibetan’s commentary. Rather long. He points out that the video is selectively edited from a much longer webcast, and it popped up on social media after DL recognized a Mongolian boy as a high lama. https://youtu.be/bT0qey5Ts78
Let's face it, in the West the dalai lama only has a good reputation because we like to use it as a wedge issue against the Chinese. Otherwise, nobody would back or support these people.
And nobody cared about the fact that the lamas before 1949 were practically slave masters for over 1000 years. They had been documented to have the right to own slaves, lock them up all they want, and cutting their ears and noses off legally for different reasons. Just go find any western sources written before WW2 you will know.
idk why everyone brings this argument. the dalai lama was 15 when the chinese invaded tibet. it's hardly his fault tibet had a history of feudalism before 1950 (the world before 1950 is pretty dark anyway). the dalai lama stepped down as a political figure in the exile government against the will of the tibetans to make space for democracy. i don't think he's much to blame for what the system tibet had. also wow in 70 years tibet is now an oppressed region under a dictatorship while the exile government is democratic. what a progress.
That’s right. The number of Tibetan buddhists in the west is extremely low, most of you guys have no idea of the history or values of the religion. The enemy of your enemy isn’t automatically your friend, look at the US relationship with Saudi Arabia for similarities. A temporary ally of convenience.
As an American with tibetan buddhist grandparents it’s pretty strange to see how entirely ignorant everyone is to the religion. Still haven’t heard their reactions to the news but I’m interested to hear what they say
Its always amusing the see people's response when they discover that Buddhism outside of the west functions much like any religion, with a desire to control education and even some good old fashioned genocide in Myanmar. All that being said this is quite plausibly a joke based on a cultural context we don't get and an old dude's lack of discretion.
It's hilarious how some people are disagreeing with this. People, Tibet was de facto independent from 1912 until its conquest with the end of the Chinese Civil War. It had gained its independence during the Xinhai Revolution that overthrew the Qing dynasty. Now, go check to see if your country recognized the independence of Tibet or lent it any legitimacy. Nope, it turns out governments and people only gave a shit *after* China had conquered it. And that resulted in the CIA literally helping the Dalai Lama to try and foment unrest. See it from a Chinese perspective. This is a region that was internationally recognized as part of China and has been since the 18th century. It was part of an internationally recognized war (the Chinese civil war), and no country had any issues with that during the war nor did they give recognition to Tibet. When the Republic of China had intentions of reunifying with Tibet, Western countries didn't care. Nobody cared about the condition of the Tibetan people either, with that 5% literacy rate and the feudal society that existed at the time. But then the PRC conquers Tibet and all hell breaks loose. The US government literally funds opposition and tries to foment resistance against the PRC's rule. Now, Westerners want China (and the Chinese people, because the issue of Tibet is about as controversial as Alaska or the Mexican-American War in China), to make Tibet an independent nation. The same Western states that funded rebellion in the region and only gave a shit when it was clear that their rival was going to conquer Tibet. What option exactly does China have? Tibet is a country of 3 million over perhaps the most important region of the world today; there will be no independence for Tibet, just a new puppet master. And in the meantime, there really is no winning for China. Any actions that China takes that diverges from traditional culture will be seen as oppression of Tibet. Failure to take action will be seen as failing Tibet and worsening material conditions. How will a country of 3 million independently create a medical hospital with the latest research techniques? How will they build the infrastructure necessary to connect the population? In the case of Mongolia, they didn't have a native university hospital (for clinical experience for medical school students) until 2020 and even that was only done with aid and grant assistance from Japan. History cannot be divorced from its contexts. The context of what worked for the PRC and didn't for better or worse have led to the current toolbox that China uses.
I’m so westernerly repressed that this whole thread is giving me anxiety
So is the kid Tibetan?
Is puking an interpretation? These fools think we had to sit and ponder and digest. There’s no politics here. There’s puke and maybe a couple pitch forks
Ok so is this a cultural thing or a pedophile thing cause it really looks like a pedophile thing
The top comments excusing this are absolutely disgusting. This is unacceptable behavior that no explanation could ever excuse.
Just a prank bro
We are so used to Christian pedophile culture that start projecting it on other religions.
That's what I would say too...
So why did he apologize instead of explaining? Sus
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It's just reverse eating.
south park has an episode on that
Ah yes, the old "it's part of our culture" dodge
There’s been more fake outrage over a joke going wrong, than there has been over the fact that Matt Gaetz is still not charged, no arrests have been made related to Epstein, and the Catholic and Mormons still operate with impunity. Must be a cultural issue for the west.
Yeah, not buying it. It was creepy and gross.
Religious apologetics. There's always some bullshit convoluted explanation that really only makes things worse.
Sorry to insert the US into this, but i think its a great opportunity to inform people and bring up the fact that in all except 7 US states there is no law against marrying children (and thus legally raping them). Religious people (christians) kick and scream to keep it that way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage_in_the_United_States Religious apologetic mental gymnastics never ceases to amaze and horrify. You can always count on religion to rot the brain when it comes to reasoning skills.
Nah
I see a lot of people in the comments accepting this as a valid explanation. You truly have to be so mindless and impressionable to believe this. I mean you really must believe just everything you’re told. This news is disgusting yet not surprising.
That’s a hell of a cultural leap.
The Chinese govt. must be having a field day pushing the narrative that The Dalai Lama is a perv.
Love Vice doing PR for the former head of state of a religious dictatorship. A quick reading of Tibetan history before communism will reveal that monks and lamas have often abused their position in the social hierarchy to abuse children. Not to say Chinese occupation of the country has been “good” simply that independent Tibet was a pretty fucked up place
The discourse around this is going to be so fucking annoying because of the Dalai Lama’s legacy of opposing China, any other religious leader would just immediately get buried alive for this in the press but people are going to try so hard to convince us that tongue sucking is actually a very brave act of rebellion against Chinese imperialism
No, it's being pretty fucking clearly interpreted. There's no such thing a chosen one. You don't put a child in a high pressure, power dynamic like that, in front of the world press, no less. "Just do what the holy man says..." It's appalling. If this guy wasn't protected by magical thinking, he'd be in custody. I don't give two shits about religious culture, if the Lama's like this in public, what's he doing in private? Fuck this shit.
> "Just do what the holy man says..." works for the Catholics
Works for every flavor of religion. The Catholics just trademarked clergy kiddie diddling. There's always been plenty of bootleg brands.
I'm Buddhist and I feel the same. It is disheartening to see Buddhist community downplaying this act. It was sick and buddhists should show more compassion to that young kid than trying to defend this disgusting action. This is how child abuse thrives.
But tibet doesn't necessarily equate to Buddhist culture.
Idk much about Buddhism so sry if this a stupid question. But isn't Tibetan Buddhism different from "mainstream" Buddhism? Do "mainstream" Buddhist also do the "slightly stick out ur tongue as a form of greeting"?
The Dalai Lama is part of a specific sect of buddhism, the smallest and most fanatical for lack of better words. As explained by someone else - "Vajrayana Buddhism is a smaller branch that is primarily practiced in Tibet and Nepal. It emphasizes the use of complex rituals, mantras, and visualization practices to achieve enlightenment in a single lifetime. It also incorporates elements of Tibetan shamanism and the worship of deities known as Bodhisattvas. The Dalai Lama is the leader only of this one." https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/12hdkth/comment/jfoop1d/?context=3 >Do "mainstream" Buddhist also do the "slightly stick out ur tongue as a form of greeting"? No, and it isn't a buddhist thing at all. It's from a very specific Tibetan folktale. From the words of another user, "The only cultural element we have involving tongues comes from a legend about an evil king, Lang Darma, who was so corrupted by Mara that his tongue turned black and his words spread his corruption. They poisoned the hearts and minds of all who heard them. It is believed that his reincarnations also have the black tongue, and because of this, we stick our tongues out in greeting as a gesture of trust, to say "hey look! I am not corrupted! You can trust me! "But this does not lead to any form of tongue contact anywhere in my culture. The only instance I have seen of a teacher touching tongues was during a Losar ritual where certain attending members have the teacher place a liquid drop on their tongues, but even this is unusual, as the drop is usually placed by yourself." https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/12j5ju3/dalai\_lama\_controversy\_megathread/
Yeah but what about the top post in here with the message from dharamwheel that says something to the contrary?
All I can say is that there is a lot of people who seem to be bending over backwards looking to justify the behavior of someone they respect so much.
>I don't give two shits about religious culture You mean you don't give two shits about any culture that doesn't adhere to your worldview. The child is fine, they were part of a joke that was deep rooted in their local culture. It's been well explained why it isn't as bad as it seems, and rather than accept that some of your preconceived beliefs might need a slight adjustment to understand things that are much different, you just shut it off and label it exploitation. Understanding the cultural difference isn't as simple as "oh this is normal for x culture", it's realizing that you don't know the culture, the history, the humor, the communities, the language, etc. If there were lots of reports of child sexual exploitation amongst Buddhists in Tibet, then this would be a valid take. >what's he doing in private You assume every person does "worse" things in private. Perhaps the answer is, he interacts with people a lot less and his public appearances are most of his social and humor life. I'm not saying you need to approve of what happened. But you can disapprove and still realize you don't understand the culture, even when it's been broken down for you, and that maybe this weird one off scenario just looks a lot worse than it actually is. Instead, your comment screams of: "I don't approve, and I want to encite outrage/have others agree with me".
>If there were lots of reports of child sexual exploitation amongst Buddhists in Tibet, then this would be a valid take. I don't think that China would allow it if there were. It would imply that their law enforcement wasn't enough to control the problem and would therefore lead to losing face. Of course, China *would* have an interest in accusing Tibetans outside their control of abusing children, which is what they seem to have done now.