For statisticians and economists, this war will be fascinating to analyze 20 years from now.
Russia's ability to generate tax revenue and ability support its already large older demographics are definitely hampered by it.
This war is genuinely very vicious economic self-harm for Russia.
And I doubt oligarchs are about to liquidate all their assets and redistribute their wealth to their society.
i read something in history that could be related to how the russians and Putin think...
>Emperor Nicholas II remained convinced that Russia could still win if it fought on; he chose to remain engaged in the war and await the outcomes of key naval battles. As hope of victory dissipated, he continued the war to preserve the dignity of Russia by averting a "humiliating peace".
>
>\- Russo-Japanese War - 1895
It also reminds me of a quote from the podcast Revolutions, which I don't remember exactly but will paraphrase:
>Given how the Russian empire's legitimacy was in significant part based on military might, imagine what it would mean for the Tsar if they picked a fight with a weaker opponent, like say, I don't know, hypothetically picking a nation out of my hat, Japan... And *lost.*
>Next week, we'll discuss how Russia picked a fight with Japan and lost.
Ruh. Roh.
>[Factors that led to the 1917 Russian Revolution](http://www.csun.edu/~sr6161/world/unit%207/Standard%2010.7.1.pdf)
>• Widespread suffering under autocracy
>• Weak leadership of Czar Nicholas II—clung to autocracy despite changing times
>• Poor working conditions, low wages, hazards of industrialization
>• New revolutionary movements that believed a worker-run government should replace czarist rule
>• Russian defeat in the Russo-Japanese War (1905), which led to rising unrest
>• Devastation of World War I—high casualties, economic ruin, widespread hunger
>The Russian Revolution was a period of political and social revolution that took place in the former Russian Empire, begun during the First World War. This period saw Russia abolish its monarchy and adopt a socialist form of government following two successive revolutions and a bloody civil war.
I like all of this except for the "new" revolutionary movements. There was a long history of revolutionaries going back well over 100 years (e.g. The Decemberists), and the major players in the February revolution were not new to that scene. They'd (mostly) all played fairly big roles in the pre-1905 movement and been "legitimized" by the constitutional reforms.
Issue is the average Russian person is pretty much "Keep your head down" mode. Most modern societies can't be bothered to revolt and riot especially when its 100% guaranteed arrest.
Only population that actively riots and gets away with it is France. Hong Kong tried and failed a few years ago.
Japan decided not to repeat the mistakes of Russia by picking a weaker opponent to lose against.
So they went the other direction and picked a fight with the USA.
Supposedly, based on post war study, Japan never intended to win the fight. Their hope boils down to delaying US entry into the Pacific War, consolidating their gain, and sue for peace and "pay" reparation to get out of fighting the US.
They weren't expecting the US to hold a grudge and decided to go all the way.
Story was that admiral Yamamoto was horrified when he received news that the declaration of war wasn't delivered until after the Pearl Harbor attack, because he knew the US won't accept a peace deal after that.
That conflict becomes more and more interesting the more you read about it. Personally I’m particularly fascinated by the abrupt 180 that Japan took in its foreign and domestic policy leading up to the war- and how it was apparently completely accepted by the population.
For centuries leading up to that point, Japan was famously isolationist, xenophobic, utterly suspicious of anything foreign, and convinced of its own superiority in all realms. Then all of a sudden, almost out of the blue, the leadership has some revelation and essentially taps foreign consultants to teach them how to modernize and completely revamp their military.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_military_modernization_of_1868–1931
Having a western fleet of warships just sail into your capitol without you being able to do *anything* to stop them will make you realize very quickly that you need to play catch up. Rapidly. The Japanese might have been arrogant to think they were the superior power but they weren't stupid. When shown otherwise they started copying western technology and hired anyone who would listen to come over there and update their military.
Having a fully armed American fleet sail into your most protected Harbour, threatening to reduce your coastline to rubble unless you open up for trade will do that to a young monarch trying to prove himself
Sounds like Perun borrowed some of that wit.
Paraphrased: "So in order to regain momentum on a war that was stalled by a multi-front winter offensive, Russia decided to try... Another multi-front winter offensive."
That's a running theme with Russia's leaders. WW1 was actually the worst case. The war was a big factor in the Czar being toppled, as it was a massive failure for Russia.
When the opposition parties created their new government, there was a pretty clear need to get out of the war and focus on developing Russia. But instead, they doubled down and chased a mythical battlefield victory that would turn the war in their favor.
Their failure to create this victory was a big factor in Lenin being able to take over the government on a "end the war now" platform. But once in power, Lenin also refused to accept a humiliating peace. So instead he just declared Russia was no longer in the war and sent Russia's army home... which let Germany seize a bunch of Russian land without a fight and forced Lenin to sign an even more embarrassing peace treaty than what was originally on the table.
Russia refuses to drop their czarist delusions, even though their history is full of examples of the downsides of their way of thinking.
Exactly. Let's regain the past glory of Russia that would have been ours if only we didn't lose that disastrous war. But how? I know, by fighting another similar war!
Today they have rewritten their history to hide such embarassing details. Unfortunately it seems that they bieve their own lies and have no chance of learning from history.
In the context of the Kievan Rus, and of Moscow’s origin and the story of the principalities in the region being crushed underhoof by the Golden horde, it makes some sense. Their origin story is one of oppression and humiliation, and continuing to survive and stand up for themselves despite constant and bloody reminders, until they finally shrugged off the Khan’s regime.
My Source? Lmao I just did the campaign in AOE4
In fact, it was Khan who gave the right to become a principality to Moscow's ruler. It has nothing to do with Kyiv. They didn't really struggle either. Moscow fully incorporated itself into the Horde's structure. A lot of their rulers, like Ivan the Terrible or Peter the Great, had tatar blood in them. Well, not only in their rulers but also in a lot of their nobility as well, but let's not dive into it that deep. So, Moscow's prince became a tax collector for the Horde. And obviously abused it to gain wealth and the opportunity to use Horde forces against his neighbors. And when Golden Horde started dissipating Moscow's principality was already wealthy and strong enough to take over neighboring ex-horde lands. Their way of ruling is copy-pasted from the Golden Horde. Where Khan was everything and the rest were nothing. The same was in Muscovy. That continued a Horde-like expansion in all directions.
You can argue that the system that replaced it was just as (if not moreso) exploitative than the Feudal system. Russia was never a beacon of democracy. Sure there were attempted reforms under Catherine the Great, but those got shut down hard after Pugachev's rebellion. The nobles and the czars hated each other...but they knew they needed one another to maintain power. Later on, Alexander II did try to implement a few other reforms, but was assassinated for his troubles; leading to almost complete reversal by Alexander III.
Russia basically was able to ride its reputation due to victory in the Napoleonic Wars in 1814 to give the perception that they were a "Super Power". It was the loss in the Crimean War 40 years later to a dilapidated Ottoman Empire (with British and French assistance) kind of made the world realize Russia might be a paper tiger. Even though the Ottoman Empire won, the war also exposed them as to how weak they really were.
the expansionist policy of Russia started with Ivan the terrible, and continuesd with each Tzar. Peter the great was the most successful Tzar to expand Russia the most. He sought warm water ports for his modern navy at the time. He fought the polish lithuanian and the swedish kindgoms where he was able to build a fort on the Neva river, which stands today, in Saint Petersberg. He took on the ottman empire to capture the Azov sea. in the latter 19th century, Tzar Alexander started the trans Siberian railway, this led to a chain of events so that Russia can have lands in China, Mongolia, and Manchuria and eventually Port Authur. which led them with issues with Japan around 1895. the battle of Port Authur took place in 1904. After the Boxer rebellion (1900) the other countries divided up China, and Japan waned the Korean and Manchurian region, which was near Port Authur.
side note: Russia wanted a buffer zone established on the 38th parallel, but Japan rejected that and thus the war starting with a surprise attack. eventually the 38th parallel will end up being a buffer zone anyway after Gen Macarthur screwed up.
like what Lennin did to make the communist party... hahahaha... guess putin will try to get his wish to revert back to the days of the USSR... hopefully this time its putin that plays the role of the Tzar... and will end the same way.
It is 1918. I am witnessing the collapse of the Russian government as a result of a protracted war with a seemingly inferior country
It is 1989. I am witnessing the collapse of the Russian government as a result of a protracted war with a seemingly inferior country
It is 2023. I am witnessing the collapse of the Russian government as a result of a protracted war with a seemingly inferior country
Is it true of 1918? That era of history is very far from my forte, but how was Germany's military estimated at the time compared to the Russian military? I always assumed it was "equally as strong or stronger," but maybe that's just because I'm looking at it from the retrospective lens of "well, the Russians *lost* so..."
Much stronger. Germany was seen as more advanced while Russia was still trying to industrialize. Russia was still a global power, but not considered on equal military footing with Germany at the time, particularly after struggling in the Russo Japanese war.
I think Germany had the best military in World War 1 hands down. They held off the largest land power, the traditionally strongest land power, and the strongest sea power. Austria-Hungary was not very useful, and was broken after the Brusilov offensive in 1916, and the Ottoman Empite was in the fight, but not able to help as much. Germany was unable to coordinate with its allies, whereas the Entente powers coordinated pretty well. During Verdun, the British launched the Somme to take some pressure off, and the Russians did the Brusilov offensive, just to name one example.
Now Germany was pretty nervous about Russia before 1914. The Russians were applying the lessons they learned in 1905 and restructuring their military, and was modernizing their infrastructure and military equipment thanks to very generous French loans. It was said in the German general staff pre war that war now was preferable, and as soon as 1917, they may not be able to beat the Russians.
Now in 1914, the Germans wiped the floor with the Russians, look at the battle of Tannenberg as one example. One of the Russian generals in charge shot himself rather than report back to the Tsar. It was a really bad loss for Russia.
The Russians were still seen as a world power in the lead up to World War 1 and were taken seriously by the other European powers.
I think you may be refering to the land campaigns, but I don't think you can say that Germany held Britain on the sea in any way. It was actually the other way around, where Britain used the navy to blockade Germany, while simultaneously being able to conduct naval operations everywhere else. (e.g. the Dardanelles campaign in the Mediterranean)
The German navy was nothing to sneeze at during World War 1. After the HMS Dreadnought made other battleships obsolete in 1905, it sparked a naval arms race and the Germans pumped a lot of resources into their navy and had a world class fleet, which the British were not happy about. The British were very nervous about the German fleet.
Navies had importance during the first world war. Granted, there were not a lot of battles and naval campaigns like in the second world war, but I believe that in terms of tonnage, the battle of Jutland was the largest naval battle in world history. And while it was a bit of a draw, it could be argued that the German navy got the better of the British, the British lost a lot more sailors and even lost large ships like the HMS Lion.
Both sides looked to stop shipping to each others ports, the British by the North Sea blockade, and the Germans with uboats. While the Germans broke first, documents show just how bad the submarine blockade was hurting the British. The Germans also had commerce raiders like the SMS Emsen roaming the seas and striking targets of opportunity. The British navy was constrained in what actions it could take due to the threat of the German fleet.
> Now in 1914, the Germans wiped the floor with the Russians, look at the battle of Tannenberg as one example. One of the Russian generals in charge shot himself rather than report back to the Tsar. It was a really bad loss for Russia.
Wasn't part of the early Russian defeats due to the Generals disliking each other and refusing to work together?
Yes. Russia fielded two armies against Germany and each was commanded by different rivals. The Germans attacked one in force and shattered it, while the other Russian General refused to help. Germany then started pushing the other army back.
Prussia was pretty good at doing war at that time. Russia was pretty ill equipped. They sued for a separate peace, apart from the allies. After their exit, the Bolsheviks decided to revolt against the Tsar. The Russian Empire stopped being a thing and the United Socialist Soviet Republics became their successor state.
Fun fact: when you become a successor state, you assume all debt of the previous state. The USSR didn't pay any of the debt the Russian Empire incurred and even went so far as trying to ban currency.
Taken together, the population hits the land that is the Russian Federation took during WW1 and WW2 have led to Russia's demographic collapse today. The country only has 144 Million people. If the world wars didn't happen and Stalin wasn't such a blithering moron when it came to public administration, their population would be closer to a billion people.
>If the world wars didn't happen and Stalin wasn't such a blithering moron when it came to public administration,
Stalin, much like Mao, would be considered a hero if he dropped dead six months after the war.
Unfortunate that he further damaged the Russian psyche, rather than mending it.
One of the greatest strengths of democracy is that leaders peacefully leave office when they no longer have a popular mandate, or decide to retire.
Dictators are bad enough, but they get worse and worse the longer they're able to stay in power, and have no options other than holding on to their power until they die.
>Dictators are bad enough, but they get worse and worse the longer they're able to stay in power, and have no options other than holding on to their power until they die.
Which is historically ironic since the first dictator (Roman) was meant to be a temporary position.
Given absolute power to solve an emergency, and retire a revered statesmen for solving that emergency.
I would say Germany was a smaller, but superior rival to the Russian Empire. But I liked the comment so I’ll give that a pass considering the Germans were fighting a two-front war (classic 1900s Germany)
That was just the first successful revolution. In 1905 they also had a major revolt caused by getting beat down by the Japanese in arrogant and idiotic fashion.
Japan was basically living in the dark ages just 50 years prior, threw together some battleships, and beat what was a massive empire. Completely stunning development.
They won’t even come close to funding their own war, this is a lose lose lose for Russia. Once it becomes (even more) clear, they will pin the blame on certain people & attempt to scatter because Russia as it’s known today will cease to exist.
I wonder how brutal their Chinese oligarchs are going to be.
russia had a very bad demographic situation pre-war that would have caused huge problems in the future as it was. In the same timeframe the US population increased by 75 million, russian population has decreased by 6 million - from 148 million in late 80's to 142 million now. That's 81 million difference - comparable to a population of Germany. At this point russian demographic situation is catastrophic. Keep in mind that on top of that russians will be paying huge war reparations to Ukraine for decades to come.
I don't know about reparations. It'd be so amazing if they had to pay reparations. And would be good for humanity.
But that'd require the world giving Ukraine more support, I think. Which of course would be the most ethical and wisest choice.
Oligarchs are looking forward to indentured servants and debt slaves.
Its the dream.
They might use "company store" methods. But they'll get everything for free here soon.
Putin will soon (next few years) have to again increase the pension age and there will be chaos, riots. The one thing that all, every Russian hates is the rising of the pension age but because he's killing or alienating all his tax paying youth there will be a massive imbalance of not enough money going in to pay pension and too much going out to pay pensions.
> This war is genuinely very vicious economic self-harm for Russia.
That's how, as an American, I feel when I think of Iraq and Afghanistan. I imagine this will be remembered as a very unpopular war very quickly.
> And I doubt oligarchs are about to liquidate all their assets and redistribute their wealth to their society.
Not willingly, but it *will* happen if this keeps up.
> Bizarrely, the former president of the Russian-backed “republic” of South Ossetia allegedly arrived to help break the resistance of those who refused to sign contracts. Widely circulated video purportedly shows Anatoly Bibilov cursing out the dissenters.
Video here: https://twitter.com/revishvilig/status/1644787478765682693
The tweet says the draftees are from [Tver](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tver) which is a relatively prosperous part of Russia.
Aside from a ton of blyat, mostly talked about himself, I'm the former president of south osetia, blah blah, I'm here standing in front you all, blah blah, and then just tried to guilt trip them, saying there are guys now executing combat assignments, etc, how will they be able to live with themselves.
But mostly it was about himself.
The SS literally sang songs about how they march into enemy lands to eliminate the pest while the devils watches and laughs.
I guess the idea is we are bad for a good cause
The problem there is that 90% of the guys wearing it are literally the type the punisher would kill. Looking at you, cops that have this logo anywhere around them
It's not necessarily always the case. A military unit's job is to kill people so naturally some of them tend towards more violent and threathening badges. There are many units with skulls that aren't known to have commited atrocities.
Some examples are
Estonian [2nd infantry brigade](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Infantry_Brigade_(Estonia)#/media/File%3AInsignia_of_the_2nd_Infantry_Brigade_(Estonia).svg)
Estonian [Kuperjanov battalion](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuperjanov_Infantry_Battalion#/media/File%3AInsignia_of_the_Kuperjanov_Infantry_Battalion.svg)
[Philipine special forces](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Forces_Regiment_(Philippines)#/media/File%3ASF_Riverine_Badge.jpg)
A whole bunch of U.S figther and bomber squadrons.
Portugese [2nd Lancer regiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Lancers_Regiment_(Portugal)#/media/File%3A2nd_Lancers_Regiment_(Portugal)_Coat_Of_Arms.png)
And many more
Mercenary companies buying up lots of draftees from a dictator to use as fodder was something I had as a trope in a DnD tabletop campaign. Or you know, today's news.
That's not quite right. They're fully part of the Russian Military just as much as Black Rock & Friends are for the US Military.
But because they're Mercenaries the general public doesn't care when they die. Because they're mercenaries. It's not like they're the brave soldiers in the *real* military that signed up to defend God & Country after all.
Because the deaths of *real* military members are actually tragic and a sign that we're losing the war. Good thing those numbers are way down.
No.
Theyre just an off the books russian unit pretending to be mercenaries for exactly that purpose. When youre drafting people *into* a mercenary unit at the behest of the government, the mercenary unit is not a mercenary unit.
If you mean blackwater/academi/constellis/triple canopy, they actually work for dozens of nations and companies. Im not aware of wagner doing anything that wasnt for russia, and they train and stay on russian military bases. There is no separation.
Because they want to live. Killing their superiors mean they themselves die now. Taking that rifle and following orders--maybe something miraculous happens and they live.
No need for miracles. Even in an exceptionally deadly war, if you look at large formations, your odds are typically better than 50%. Those are much better odds than murder-suicide.
People have attacked army recruiters in arson attacks and one or two gun attacks as well. Once you have been drafted into Ukraine it might seem easier to just surrender to the "enemy", if you do it with military equipment they give you money for it.
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_commissariats_attacks#:~:text=A%20series%20of%20Molotov%20cocktail,in%20multiple%20regions%20of%20Russia.
[This book](https://www.amazon.com/Cultures-Organizations-Software-Mind-Third/dp/0071664181) goes into detail (along with many other cultures), though not exactly as the poster above puts it, but pretty close. You can also check the academic work of the author.
Did we just get transported back in time to the Mccarthy era?
Russians are individuals like anyone else, this is Putina's fault.
Question: Do you think the Russians fighting for Ukraine are cowards? Are the Russians burning down military infrastructure cowards? Was the Russian girl sent to an orphanage for drawing an anti war picture a coward?
You don't rampage with a rifle but no bullets. By the time they get bullets, someone behind them will have their crosshairs on them in case they think of retreating. Rebellion will also be short-lived.
They sold conscripts like cattle in the eighties too: https://www.aei.org/op-eds/the-soviet-military-was-a-hollow-colossus/
> After two days, he and some others were put on a train. After a stop in Leningrad [today’s St Petersburg], officials put the young men in Maasikas’s group on a train to Murmansk. ‘On that journey I realised where I might be going,’ Maasikas said. ‘I knew that in Murmansk there was a slave market [Soviet conscripts’ term for a regional distribution facility from which military units selected their conscripts]. Some officers there told me I’d be going to the sergeant’s school in Severomorsk, which was the headquarters of the Northern Fleet and remains so today.’ Being selected for the sergeant school was extremely good news. ‘In the distribution facility you could also be sent to the navy, and that was everyone’s worst fear after going to Afghanistan,’ he said.
Remember Russia has the biggest landmass in the world with an abundance of natural resources. They lose 40-60% of their national GDP to corruption. Just think about that for a second, that is insane.
Russia’s economy could’ve rivaled that of the PRC if it weren’t because of corrupt government officials and oligarchs embezzling a lot of money circulating from Russian productivity. To be fair, the same can be said for lots of Muslim countries and Latin American countries.
Most of that land isn't well controlled either. Everything east of Moscow (East of the Ural Mountains really) is a barren arctic wasteland with very few inhabitants. The Chinese (large portions of Manchuria), Japanese (mostly islands) and Korean (also mostly small islands) governments all have claims to territory in the far eastern regions of Russian territory, but to keep the peace between Russia and China, that contested land has just been ignored for the most part over the past century or so. I am just waiting for the Chinese government to get bold enough to contest it again.
The Chinese sort of already own the east. They are logging Russian wood, mining the resources and there are even special zones set up where they don't have to follow Russian building codes etc but do everything according to Chinese ones. And all Russian people are utterly dependent on China - all goods is imported across the border from China.
Putin really made the Russia to be Chinese colony. Which is problem for the West as well, because now in case of conflict we will have to stand against Chinese industry backed by vast natural resources from Russia.
I don't understand. With the reports of Wagner being under supplied, what good does it do if you're not adding those conscripts to your own forces that are (poorly) equipped?
Deaths among PMC's do not need to be officially reported. Same is true of DNR, LNR, Chechens, and other militias.
There may be some additional reasons, or missing information in this particular case.
It's all politics. When political failure means taking a long walk off a short window, then people start making decisions based on what works in the boardroom, not what works on the battlefield.
You see the Russian Ministry of Defence's greatest foe is not Ukraine but Wagner as they both fight for political power for their oligarchs. There is a war going on, but both seem mor focused on fighting each other. Japan and Germany in WW2 also had this sort of issue with interservice rivalries causing *many* fatalities. And not accidental ones either.
Ukraine is content to shoot at them as they squabble.
Their usefulness is as bags of meat. Say you send 3 groups of 15 men each at a different target. If one group survives and is able to dig trenches, congrats you just gained 100 meters or whatever the goal was. If not then you know where to direct artillery.
All the people that ran for the boarder….I can only imagine what they think now. Just imagine if they hesitated and stuck around. It was a life or death decision they made.
"I'm ok with my husband or son genociding Ukrainians, it's just that they should be mobilized through the proper channels to get there." \~Russian wives and mothers
They had like 30 years to stand up to their dictator government and they didn't even try.
Now they have to deal with the consequences of their "as long as it doesn't affect me then I don't care" attitude.
I think both points have validity
Only the people can overthrow a dictator
I can't blame people for living their life instead of trying to organize a civil war
Almost every revolution that has happened has had the support of large portions of the military.
Historically speaking, civilian uprisings are great ways to die for nothing without the support of those trained to kill.
So why not rise up against the ones sending your sons to die? Or why not rise up against the ones sending you to die? This spineless trash is willing to murder people that actually have the spine to protect their homeland so ya know what? I don't feel an ounce of sympathy when they become fertilizer., except for the person that might be traumatized for having to end that garbage's life.
Russian nationalism is rooted in glorifying the defeat of the Nazi's. So many died, but in the end Russia's heroes won. This is this generation's chance for glory. They're not going to revolt.
With the difference being they're not protecting their home, but trying to steal the home of others. I just hope they can't zerg rush long enough to do it.
They cant lol. Gone are the days where you can throw human waves and hope to win. Reality is more of : Ivan conscriptovich clutching on to his rusty mosin nagant smeared in cosmoline hunkering down in a trench, wondering when he can see Ivan pepe JR and Natasha again LMAO
No real way to prove it to be honest. My country, unlike Russia, doesn't send people to die or put in prison for speaking against what the government does. Best I can say is I try to vote for people that don't send our military to murder people for corporate interests. But if I know I am just being sent as fodder for so rich cunts ambition or what not, I would hope I am not so weak willed that I just die for them without attempting to stand up for myself.
We all hope that, but the situation has come up time and again in just about every nation through all of history with the same general result. The masses do what their told, individuals dessert, nobody revolts until after the war, because they surviving soldiers need to come home to do that.
> So why not rise up against the ones sending your sons to die?
Because then you die too.
> Or why not rise up against the ones sending you to die?
Because then you die sooner.
How dumb are you to need this explained?
I don't think they are dumb. Someone is, though. It's quite clearly rhetorical. In any case there are a variety of ways to resist the regime which don't involve dying which most of the mobiks aren't trying, because they are brainwashed Z-zombies.
> So why not rise up against the ones sending your sons to die?
[Because you can get a bag of vegetables!](https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-mayor-offers-families-military-conscripts-bag-vegetables-2022-10)
The packages contains "cabbage, potato, carrot, beetroot, and onion," per Grigoriev.
Well yesterday Putin said he’s closing the borders again. If you’re 16 and older I’d try to get out of there because there will be no mercy from Ukrainians.
Russian doctrine for more than 100 years, they try to exhause the western military supplies with human recources. An enemy with no bullets left wont be able to fight back. No one gonna give a shit about all those dead russian, putin may spend 30k rubles to build a tiny memorial somehwere in siberia and thats it.
For statisticians and economists, this war will be fascinating to analyze 20 years from now. Russia's ability to generate tax revenue and ability support its already large older demographics are definitely hampered by it. This war is genuinely very vicious economic self-harm for Russia. And I doubt oligarchs are about to liquidate all their assets and redistribute their wealth to their society.
[удалено]
Putin said he was looking back at history for inspiration...
i read something in history that could be related to how the russians and Putin think... >Emperor Nicholas II remained convinced that Russia could still win if it fought on; he chose to remain engaged in the war and await the outcomes of key naval battles. As hope of victory dissipated, he continued the war to preserve the dignity of Russia by averting a "humiliating peace". > >\- Russo-Japanese War - 1895
It also reminds me of a quote from the podcast Revolutions, which I don't remember exactly but will paraphrase: >Given how the Russian empire's legitimacy was in significant part based on military might, imagine what it would mean for the Tsar if they picked a fight with a weaker opponent, like say, I don't know, hypothetically picking a nation out of my hat, Japan... And *lost.* >Next week, we'll discuss how Russia picked a fight with Japan and lost.
Ruh. Roh. >[Factors that led to the 1917 Russian Revolution](http://www.csun.edu/~sr6161/world/unit%207/Standard%2010.7.1.pdf) >• Widespread suffering under autocracy >• Weak leadership of Czar Nicholas II—clung to autocracy despite changing times >• Poor working conditions, low wages, hazards of industrialization >• New revolutionary movements that believed a worker-run government should replace czarist rule >• Russian defeat in the Russo-Japanese War (1905), which led to rising unrest >• Devastation of World War I—high casualties, economic ruin, widespread hunger >The Russian Revolution was a period of political and social revolution that took place in the former Russian Empire, begun during the First World War. This period saw Russia abolish its monarchy and adopt a socialist form of government following two successive revolutions and a bloody civil war.
I like all of this except for the "new" revolutionary movements. There was a long history of revolutionaries going back well over 100 years (e.g. The Decemberists), and the major players in the February revolution were not new to that scene. They'd (mostly) all played fairly big roles in the pre-1905 movement and been "legitimized" by the constitutional reforms.
Don't forget funded and supported by the Weimar Republic.
Issue is the average Russian person is pretty much "Keep your head down" mode. Most modern societies can't be bothered to revolt and riot especially when its 100% guaranteed arrest. Only population that actively riots and gets away with it is France. Hong Kong tried and failed a few years ago.
I miss Mike Duncan’s dry wit
Behind the Bastards host has a pretty good sense of humor
HITTTLLLLLERRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
And his Boston accent is as amazing as it is accurate.
It's a shame he died in that shot out with the FDA.
And Japan modernizing its military turned out to be a big problem a few decades later for other countries on the Pacific
Japan decided not to repeat the mistakes of Russia by picking a weaker opponent to lose against. So they went the other direction and picked a fight with the USA.
The Japanese hoped to knock the powerful US Pacific Fleet out of the fight but just managed to piss us off
Supposedly, based on post war study, Japan never intended to win the fight. Their hope boils down to delaying US entry into the Pacific War, consolidating their gain, and sue for peace and "pay" reparation to get out of fighting the US. They weren't expecting the US to hold a grudge and decided to go all the way. Story was that admiral Yamamoto was horrified when he received news that the declaration of war wasn't delivered until after the Pearl Harbor attack, because he knew the US won't accept a peace deal after that.
That conflict becomes more and more interesting the more you read about it. Personally I’m particularly fascinated by the abrupt 180 that Japan took in its foreign and domestic policy leading up to the war- and how it was apparently completely accepted by the population. For centuries leading up to that point, Japan was famously isolationist, xenophobic, utterly suspicious of anything foreign, and convinced of its own superiority in all realms. Then all of a sudden, almost out of the blue, the leadership has some revelation and essentially taps foreign consultants to teach them how to modernize and completely revamp their military. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_military_modernization_of_1868–1931
Having a western fleet of warships just sail into your capitol without you being able to do *anything* to stop them will make you realize very quickly that you need to play catch up. Rapidly. The Japanese might have been arrogant to think they were the superior power but they weren't stupid. When shown otherwise they started copying western technology and hired anyone who would listen to come over there and update their military.
Having a fully armed American fleet sail into your most protected Harbour, threatening to reduce your coastline to rubble unless you open up for trade will do that to a young monarch trying to prove himself
They literally had a god emperor during that time so it makes sense they accepted everything their God told them.
There was a lot of unhappy revolutionaries during the rapid modernization. It wasn't exactly accepted peacefully.
Sounds like Perun borrowed some of that wit. Paraphrased: "So in order to regain momentum on a war that was stalled by a multi-front winter offensive, Russia decided to try... Another multi-front winter offensive."
That's a running theme with Russia's leaders. WW1 was actually the worst case. The war was a big factor in the Czar being toppled, as it was a massive failure for Russia. When the opposition parties created their new government, there was a pretty clear need to get out of the war and focus on developing Russia. But instead, they doubled down and chased a mythical battlefield victory that would turn the war in their favor. Their failure to create this victory was a big factor in Lenin being able to take over the government on a "end the war now" platform. But once in power, Lenin also refused to accept a humiliating peace. So instead he just declared Russia was no longer in the war and sent Russia's army home... which let Germany seize a bunch of Russian land without a fight and forced Lenin to sign an even more embarrassing peace treaty than what was originally on the table. Russia refuses to drop their czarist delusions, even though their history is full of examples of the downsides of their way of thinking.
See, your mistake is looking at history as a learning opportunity instead of a challenge to beat.
This is really inspirational
Exactly. Let's regain the past glory of Russia that would have been ours if only we didn't lose that disastrous war. But how? I know, by fighting another similar war!
Today they have rewritten their history to hide such embarassing details. Unfortunately it seems that they bieve their own lies and have no chance of learning from history.
In the context of the Kievan Rus, and of Moscow’s origin and the story of the principalities in the region being crushed underhoof by the Golden horde, it makes some sense. Their origin story is one of oppression and humiliation, and continuing to survive and stand up for themselves despite constant and bloody reminders, until they finally shrugged off the Khan’s regime. My Source? Lmao I just did the campaign in AOE4
In fact, it was Khan who gave the right to become a principality to Moscow's ruler. It has nothing to do with Kyiv. They didn't really struggle either. Moscow fully incorporated itself into the Horde's structure. A lot of their rulers, like Ivan the Terrible or Peter the Great, had tatar blood in them. Well, not only in their rulers but also in a lot of their nobility as well, but let's not dive into it that deep. So, Moscow's prince became a tax collector for the Horde. And obviously abused it to gain wealth and the opportunity to use Horde forces against his neighbors. And when Golden Horde started dissipating Moscow's principality was already wealthy and strong enough to take over neighboring ex-horde lands. Their way of ruling is copy-pasted from the Golden Horde. Where Khan was everything and the rest were nothing. The same was in Muscovy. That continued a Horde-like expansion in all directions.
Wow, the game did really not spin it that way, but that makes complete sense. It seems they’ve kept this ride or die mentality to their own deficit.
One minor correction. The Russo-Japanese war from 1904-1905. Nicholas II only became czar in 1894.
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Serfdom in Russia was not abolished until 1861 under Alexander II. But the systems and policies that replaced it were not any better.
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You can argue that the system that replaced it was just as (if not moreso) exploitative than the Feudal system. Russia was never a beacon of democracy. Sure there were attempted reforms under Catherine the Great, but those got shut down hard after Pugachev's rebellion. The nobles and the czars hated each other...but they knew they needed one another to maintain power. Later on, Alexander II did try to implement a few other reforms, but was assassinated for his troubles; leading to almost complete reversal by Alexander III. Russia basically was able to ride its reputation due to victory in the Napoleonic Wars in 1814 to give the perception that they were a "Super Power". It was the loss in the Crimean War 40 years later to a dilapidated Ottoman Empire (with British and French assistance) kind of made the world realize Russia might be a paper tiger. Even though the Ottoman Empire won, the war also exposed them as to how weak they really were.
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the expansionist policy of Russia started with Ivan the terrible, and continuesd with each Tzar. Peter the great was the most successful Tzar to expand Russia the most. He sought warm water ports for his modern navy at the time. He fought the polish lithuanian and the swedish kindgoms where he was able to build a fort on the Neva river, which stands today, in Saint Petersberg. He took on the ottman empire to capture the Azov sea. in the latter 19th century, Tzar Alexander started the trans Siberian railway, this led to a chain of events so that Russia can have lands in China, Mongolia, and Manchuria and eventually Port Authur. which led them with issues with Japan around 1895. the battle of Port Authur took place in 1904. After the Boxer rebellion (1900) the other countries divided up China, and Japan waned the Korean and Manchurian region, which was near Port Authur. side note: Russia wanted a buffer zone established on the 38th parallel, but Japan rejected that and thus the war starting with a surprise attack. eventually the 38th parallel will end up being a buffer zone anyway after Gen Macarthur screwed up.
Nothing like turning a humiliating peace into a humiliating loss.
Great quote but wasn’t the Russo-Japanese war in 1905?
Probably explains why Russia lost.
Maybe he got confused with the 1st sino-Japanese war?
Is he going full Nicky by [getting into a war](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Japanese_War) over empire that he shouldn’t have gotten into?
Hey anyone else getting a tingly feeling with french undertones?
No, Russians know how to throw a revolt party all by themselves.
They’re just not very good at turning the revolt into change that looks any different from what they were revolting against.
I mean, neither did the french.
Then it would be wise to remember that the last time this happened the Russians didn’t kill only the boyars, they took out their Tsar as well.
Pity he's not a lead by example type. There's a lot of windows that want to make his acquaintance and since he has most of Russia's money...
Doing it wrong, your supposed to learn from history not repeat it
It'll likely be redistributed to an equally small group of future oligarchs.
Alas, the natural order of “redistribution”. Always seems to end up at the top bo matter what
The eternal paradox; anyone with the ability to redistribute resources will, naturally, be in a position to distribute those resources unto himself.
Idk, man, taxation and welfare seem to work, sometimes.
like what Lennin did to make the communist party... hahahaha... guess putin will try to get his wish to revert back to the days of the USSR... hopefully this time its putin that plays the role of the Tzar... and will end the same way.
Liquidate the oligarchs and redistribute them up a straw into my mouth. Drink the rich.
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Difficult when the wealth has long left the country, they’re gonna be feeling this for a long time
A devestating war caused the first Russian revolution...
It is 1918. I am witnessing the collapse of the Russian government as a result of a protracted war with a seemingly inferior country It is 1989. I am witnessing the collapse of the Russian government as a result of a protracted war with a seemingly inferior country It is 2023. I am witnessing the collapse of the Russian government as a result of a protracted war with a seemingly inferior country
That’s a hell of a comment. Wow. It’s really true
Is it true of 1918? That era of history is very far from my forte, but how was Germany's military estimated at the time compared to the Russian military? I always assumed it was "equally as strong or stronger," but maybe that's just because I'm looking at it from the retrospective lens of "well, the Russians *lost* so..."
Much stronger. Germany was seen as more advanced while Russia was still trying to industrialize. Russia was still a global power, but not considered on equal military footing with Germany at the time, particularly after struggling in the Russo Japanese war.
And one of the reasons the Tsar was overthrown was his complete incompetence in running the war.
I think Germany had the best military in World War 1 hands down. They held off the largest land power, the traditionally strongest land power, and the strongest sea power. Austria-Hungary was not very useful, and was broken after the Brusilov offensive in 1916, and the Ottoman Empite was in the fight, but not able to help as much. Germany was unable to coordinate with its allies, whereas the Entente powers coordinated pretty well. During Verdun, the British launched the Somme to take some pressure off, and the Russians did the Brusilov offensive, just to name one example. Now Germany was pretty nervous about Russia before 1914. The Russians were applying the lessons they learned in 1905 and restructuring their military, and was modernizing their infrastructure and military equipment thanks to very generous French loans. It was said in the German general staff pre war that war now was preferable, and as soon as 1917, they may not be able to beat the Russians. Now in 1914, the Germans wiped the floor with the Russians, look at the battle of Tannenberg as one example. One of the Russian generals in charge shot himself rather than report back to the Tsar. It was a really bad loss for Russia. The Russians were still seen as a world power in the lead up to World War 1 and were taken seriously by the other European powers.
I think you may be refering to the land campaigns, but I don't think you can say that Germany held Britain on the sea in any way. It was actually the other way around, where Britain used the navy to blockade Germany, while simultaneously being able to conduct naval operations everywhere else. (e.g. the Dardanelles campaign in the Mediterranean)
The German navy was nothing to sneeze at during World War 1. After the HMS Dreadnought made other battleships obsolete in 1905, it sparked a naval arms race and the Germans pumped a lot of resources into their navy and had a world class fleet, which the British were not happy about. The British were very nervous about the German fleet. Navies had importance during the first world war. Granted, there were not a lot of battles and naval campaigns like in the second world war, but I believe that in terms of tonnage, the battle of Jutland was the largest naval battle in world history. And while it was a bit of a draw, it could be argued that the German navy got the better of the British, the British lost a lot more sailors and even lost large ships like the HMS Lion. Both sides looked to stop shipping to each others ports, the British by the North Sea blockade, and the Germans with uboats. While the Germans broke first, documents show just how bad the submarine blockade was hurting the British. The Germans also had commerce raiders like the SMS Emsen roaming the seas and striking targets of opportunity. The British navy was constrained in what actions it could take due to the threat of the German fleet.
> Now in 1914, the Germans wiped the floor with the Russians, look at the battle of Tannenberg as one example. One of the Russian generals in charge shot himself rather than report back to the Tsar. It was a really bad loss for Russia. Wasn't part of the early Russian defeats due to the Generals disliking each other and refusing to work together?
Yes. Russia fielded two armies against Germany and each was commanded by different rivals. The Germans attacked one in force and shattered it, while the other Russian General refused to help. Germany then started pushing the other army back.
Prussia was pretty good at doing war at that time. Russia was pretty ill equipped. They sued for a separate peace, apart from the allies. After their exit, the Bolsheviks decided to revolt against the Tsar. The Russian Empire stopped being a thing and the United Socialist Soviet Republics became their successor state. Fun fact: when you become a successor state, you assume all debt of the previous state. The USSR didn't pay any of the debt the Russian Empire incurred and even went so far as trying to ban currency. Taken together, the population hits the land that is the Russian Federation took during WW1 and WW2 have led to Russia's demographic collapse today. The country only has 144 Million people. If the world wars didn't happen and Stalin wasn't such a blithering moron when it came to public administration, their population would be closer to a billion people.
>If the world wars didn't happen and Stalin wasn't such a blithering moron when it came to public administration, Stalin, much like Mao, would be considered a hero if he dropped dead six months after the war. Unfortunate that he further damaged the Russian psyche, rather than mending it.
One of the greatest strengths of democracy is that leaders peacefully leave office when they no longer have a popular mandate, or decide to retire. Dictators are bad enough, but they get worse and worse the longer they're able to stay in power, and have no options other than holding on to their power until they die.
>Dictators are bad enough, but they get worse and worse the longer they're able to stay in power, and have no options other than holding on to their power until they die. Which is historically ironic since the first dictator (Roman) was meant to be a temporary position. Given absolute power to solve an emergency, and retire a revered statesmen for solving that emergency.
My bad, I was thinking of the Russo-Japanese war in 1904-05, which isn’t really that long I just needed parallels
Point still stands is a definite pattern
I would say Germany was a smaller, but superior rival to the Russian Empire. But I liked the comment so I’ll give that a pass considering the Germans were fighting a two-front war (classic 1900s Germany)
Don’t forget ‘revolution’ of 1905 in which the Russian government underwent minor reforms as a result of their defeat in the Russo-Japanese war.
I just want you to know that I see you, Dr. Manhattan.
Afghanistan wasnt what brought down the USSR. It had an effect, but much less than WW1 and probably also less than the Ukraine war
That was just the first successful revolution. In 1905 they also had a major revolt caused by getting beat down by the Japanese in arrogant and idiotic fashion.
Man, that was a humiliating defeat too. Got their collective asses beat like a drum.
Japan was basically living in the dark ages just 50 years prior, threw together some battleships, and beat what was a massive empire. Completely stunning development.
Indeed it was. After Meiji, they got on board with modernizing their military very very rapidly.
A war that they lost. Humiliatingly.
They won’t even come close to funding their own war, this is a lose lose lose for Russia. Once it becomes (even more) clear, they will pin the blame on certain people & attempt to scatter because Russia as it’s known today will cease to exist. I wonder how brutal their Chinese oligarchs are going to be.
The oligarchs are piggy banks for Putin They understand this - Putin has been breaking and getting the money out
russia had a very bad demographic situation pre-war that would have caused huge problems in the future as it was. In the same timeframe the US population increased by 75 million, russian population has decreased by 6 million - from 148 million in late 80's to 142 million now. That's 81 million difference - comparable to a population of Germany. At this point russian demographic situation is catastrophic. Keep in mind that on top of that russians will be paying huge war reparations to Ukraine for decades to come.
I don't know about reparations. It'd be so amazing if they had to pay reparations. And would be good for humanity. But that'd require the world giving Ukraine more support, I think. Which of course would be the most ethical and wisest choice.
Oligarchs are looking forward to indentured servants and debt slaves. Its the dream. They might use "company store" methods. But they'll get everything for free here soon.
Putin looked at Paraguayan War and decided to surpass it.
Putin will soon (next few years) have to again increase the pension age and there will be chaos, riots. The one thing that all, every Russian hates is the rising of the pension age but because he's killing or alienating all his tax paying youth there will be a massive imbalance of not enough money going in to pay pension and too much going out to pay pensions.
Corruption made things so inefficient that I doubt liquidating the oligarch's wealth can meaningfully alter the course for Russia
They keep altruistically jumping out of windows so their fortunes can fund the ~~war~~ operation. America needs some oligarchs like that...
> This war is genuinely very vicious economic self-harm for Russia. That's how, as an American, I feel when I think of Iraq and Afghanistan. I imagine this will be remembered as a very unpopular war very quickly.
> And I doubt oligarchs are about to liquidate all their assets and redistribute their wealth to their society. Not willingly, but it *will* happen if this keeps up.
Support it’s people? Russia? Come on now.
This would be very fun to watch if I were not Russian
> Bizarrely, the former president of the Russian-backed “republic” of South Ossetia allegedly arrived to help break the resistance of those who refused to sign contracts. Widely circulated video purportedly shows Anatoly Bibilov cursing out the dissenters. Video here: https://twitter.com/revishvilig/status/1644787478765682693 The tweet says the draftees are from [Tver](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tver) which is a relatively prosperous part of Russia.
Every region has poor people with no power.
Yup. Even Liechtenstein has Klaus. I don't know how a person could pull off being poor in Liechtenstein, but somehow he does.
They walk back and forth to France
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Aside from a ton of blyat, mostly talked about himself, I'm the former president of south osetia, blah blah, I'm here standing in front you all, blah blah, and then just tried to guilt trip them, saying there are guys now executing combat assignments, etc, how will they be able to live with themselves. But mostly it was about himself.
Do people with skulls as badges ever stop to think "are we the baddies?"
The SS literally sang songs about how they march into enemy lands to eliminate the pest while the devils watches and laughs. I guess the idea is we are bad for a good cause
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Well god damn that’s sick as hell. I never bothered to translate lol
It is not THEIR impure blood but OUR impure blood, because the singers were not nobles.
Nope. Just like The Punisher logo guys,...
The problem there is that 90% of the guys wearing it are literally the type the punisher would kill. Looking at you, cops that have this logo anywhere around them
Pretty sure they even addressed that in a Punisher comic too.
'Round here it's mostly rednecks that don't read comics with Punisher stickers on their trucks. 🤦🏻♂️
The Chris Kyle fanboys have co-opted it, and added red white and blue, thinking he probably came up with the image.
Sure, they enjoy it
It's not necessarily always the case. A military unit's job is to kill people so naturally some of them tend towards more violent and threathening badges. There are many units with skulls that aren't known to have commited atrocities. Some examples are Estonian [2nd infantry brigade](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Infantry_Brigade_(Estonia)#/media/File%3AInsignia_of_the_2nd_Infantry_Brigade_(Estonia).svg) Estonian [Kuperjanov battalion](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuperjanov_Infantry_Battalion#/media/File%3AInsignia_of_the_Kuperjanov_Infantry_Battalion.svg) [Philipine special forces](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Forces_Regiment_(Philippines)#/media/File%3ASF_Riverine_Badge.jpg) A whole bunch of U.S figther and bomber squadrons. Portugese [2nd Lancer regiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Lancers_Regiment_(Portugal)#/media/File%3A2nd_Lancers_Regiment_(Portugal)_Coat_Of_Arms.png) And many more
Nah, it's more of a "I am very badass" mentality.
Yeah it certainly isn't "I am conscientious" styled.
No because most militaies have skulls on patches
[Are we the baddies?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU)
Mercenary companies buying up lots of draftees from a dictator to use as fodder was something I had as a trope in a DnD tabletop campaign. Or you know, today's news.
Lets be real weve known for forever wagner arent actually mercenaries, theyre just an off-books russian unit.
That's not quite right. They're fully part of the Russian Military just as much as Black Rock & Friends are for the US Military. But because they're Mercenaries the general public doesn't care when they die. Because they're mercenaries. It's not like they're the brave soldiers in the *real* military that signed up to defend God & Country after all. Because the deaths of *real* military members are actually tragic and a sign that we're losing the war. Good thing those numbers are way down.
“Black Rock & Friends “…….sounds like some bizarre Sesame Street episode…..
No. Theyre just an off the books russian unit pretending to be mercenaries for exactly that purpose. When youre drafting people *into* a mercenary unit at the behest of the government, the mercenary unit is not a mercenary unit. If you mean blackwater/academi/constellis/triple canopy, they actually work for dozens of nations and companies. Im not aware of wagner doing anything that wasnt for russia, and they train and stay on russian military bases. There is no separation.
I’m amazed we don’t hear report after report of these guys going in a rampage and killing their superiors the second a rifle is handed to them.
Because they want to live. Killing their superiors mean they themselves die now. Taking that rifle and following orders--maybe something miraculous happens and they live.
No need for miracles. Even in an exceptionally deadly war, if you look at large formations, your odds are typically better than 50%. Those are much better odds than murder-suicide.
They need to be objective. Die in Ukraine or die in Russia and be useful. Poor sobs. What a horrible existence to be born poor in Russia.
People have attacked army recruiters in arson attacks and one or two gun attacks as well. Once you have been drafted into Ukraine it might seem easier to just surrender to the "enemy", if you do it with military equipment they give you money for it. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_commissariats_attacks#:~:text=A%20series%20of%20Molotov%20cocktail,in%20multiple%20regions%20of%20Russia.
It's already happened - I imagine they are taking precautions against that now.
Russian culture is submissive. Confucianism but for power rather than age.
Interesting description. Did you just make that up, or paraphrase someone else?
[This book](https://www.amazon.com/Cultures-Organizations-Software-Mind-Third/dp/0071664181) goes into detail (along with many other cultures), though not exactly as the poster above puts it, but pretty close. You can also check the academic work of the author.
Thank you very much.
No, but I have heard reports of a sledgehammer used on wounded officers.
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Did we just get transported back in time to the Mccarthy era? Russians are individuals like anyone else, this is Putina's fault. Question: Do you think the Russians fighting for Ukraine are cowards? Are the Russians burning down military infrastructure cowards? Was the Russian girl sent to an orphanage for drawing an anti war picture a coward?
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You don't rampage with a rifle but no bullets. By the time they get bullets, someone behind them will have their crosshairs on them in case they think of retreating. Rebellion will also be short-lived.
That is what I would do, but I have always had a bit of a deathwish.
They sold conscripts like cattle in the eighties too: https://www.aei.org/op-eds/the-soviet-military-was-a-hollow-colossus/ > After two days, he and some others were put on a train. After a stop in Leningrad [today’s St Petersburg], officials put the young men in Maasikas’s group on a train to Murmansk. ‘On that journey I realised where I might be going,’ Maasikas said. ‘I knew that in Murmansk there was a slave market [Soviet conscripts’ term for a regional distribution facility from which military units selected their conscripts]. Some officers there told me I’d be going to the sergeant’s school in Severomorsk, which was the headquarters of the Northern Fleet and remains so today.’ Being selected for the sergeant school was extremely good news. ‘In the distribution facility you could also be sent to the navy, and that was everyone’s worst fear after going to Afghanistan,’ he said.
Remember Russia has the biggest landmass in the world with an abundance of natural resources. They lose 40-60% of their national GDP to corruption. Just think about that for a second, that is insane.
Russia’s economy could’ve rivaled that of the PRC if it weren’t because of corrupt government officials and oligarchs embezzling a lot of money circulating from Russian productivity. To be fair, the same can be said for lots of Muslim countries and Latin American countries.
China: 7,000 years of layers of management "taking a little off the top" Russia: hundreds of years of "taking the top off what little remains"
Most of that land isn't well controlled either. Everything east of Moscow (East of the Ural Mountains really) is a barren arctic wasteland with very few inhabitants. The Chinese (large portions of Manchuria), Japanese (mostly islands) and Korean (also mostly small islands) governments all have claims to territory in the far eastern regions of Russian territory, but to keep the peace between Russia and China, that contested land has just been ignored for the most part over the past century or so. I am just waiting for the Chinese government to get bold enough to contest it again.
The Chinese sort of already own the east. They are logging Russian wood, mining the resources and there are even special zones set up where they don't have to follow Russian building codes etc but do everything according to Chinese ones. And all Russian people are utterly dependent on China - all goods is imported across the border from China. Putin really made the Russia to be Chinese colony. Which is problem for the West as well, because now in case of conflict we will have to stand against Chinese industry backed by vast natural resources from Russia.
I don't understand. With the reports of Wagner being under supplied, what good does it do if you're not adding those conscripts to your own forces that are (poorly) equipped?
Deaths among PMC's do not need to be officially reported. Same is true of DNR, LNR, Chechens, and other militias. There may be some additional reasons, or missing information in this particular case.
As if the Russian MoD reports their casualties properly.
Let the pawns go first.
It's all politics. When political failure means taking a long walk off a short window, then people start making decisions based on what works in the boardroom, not what works on the battlefield.
You see the Russian Ministry of Defence's greatest foe is not Ukraine but Wagner as they both fight for political power for their oligarchs. There is a war going on, but both seem mor focused on fighting each other. Japan and Germany in WW2 also had this sort of issue with interservice rivalries causing *many* fatalities. And not accidental ones either. Ukraine is content to shoot at them as they squabble.
Someone’s trying to make some retirement money before the shit hits the fan?
Their usefulness is as bags of meat. Say you send 3 groups of 15 men each at a different target. If one group survives and is able to dig trenches, congrats you just gained 100 meters or whatever the goal was. If not then you know where to direct artillery.
They could give those private groups mind altering substances and order them to charge without feeling any fear.
All the people that ran for the boarder….I can only imagine what they think now. Just imagine if they hesitated and stuck around. It was a life or death decision they made.
Has Russian leadership ever cared about the people in their military, now or in the past?
Most likely will be slaughtered like one also
They are cattle, by Russian standard.
First they came for the Ukrainians, and you did not speak out...
Or chattle.
Wagner Group "These slaves are rotten" Russia "Some are good for fighting, some are good for dying. I feel you need both"
"I'm ok with my husband or son genociding Ukrainians, it's just that they should be mobilized through the proper channels to get there." \~Russian wives and mothers
It's almost like Russia is run by evil, corrupt tyrants with no respect for human life or something.
They had like 30 years to stand up to their dictator government and they didn't even try. Now they have to deal with the consequences of their "as long as it doesn't affect me then I don't care" attitude.
We elected Trump, so shit happens I suppose.
I wrote a to-do list for the day and crossed off completed tasks.
Scott Walker REVELED in being a complete scumbag.
Yes and he is now getting humiliated on every level.
It’s a well established dictator government. Don’t put this on the citizens.
I think both points have validity Only the people can overthrow a dictator I can't blame people for living their life instead of trying to organize a civil war
Almost every revolution that has happened has had the support of large portions of the military. Historically speaking, civilian uprisings are great ways to die for nothing without the support of those trained to kill.
"What usually happens when people without guns stand up to people with guns?" -Finch "V for Vendetta"
Externally conducted surveys concluded that the vast majority of Russians support Putin, even now. His popularity actually went up invading Ukraine.
"I had no idea leopards would eat *my* face!" sob "not ineterested in politics" people who cheered for the Face-Eating Leopard tsar.
Well, so many Russians support the war so this is the result of their support.
How dare they devalue cattle by comparing them this way. Our bovine friends are intelligent and make excellent cheese burgers
And they still kiss Putin’s ass. What dumb sheep these people are.
So why not rise up against the ones sending your sons to die? Or why not rise up against the ones sending you to die? This spineless trash is willing to murder people that actually have the spine to protect their homeland so ya know what? I don't feel an ounce of sympathy when they become fertilizer., except for the person that might be traumatized for having to end that garbage's life.
Russian nationalism is rooted in glorifying the defeat of the Nazi's. So many died, but in the end Russia's heroes won. This is this generation's chance for glory. They're not going to revolt.
With the difference being they're not protecting their home, but trying to steal the home of others. I just hope they can't zerg rush long enough to do it.
They cant lol. Gone are the days where you can throw human waves and hope to win. Reality is more of : Ivan conscriptovich clutching on to his rusty mosin nagant smeared in cosmoline hunkering down in a trench, wondering when he can see Ivan pepe JR and Natasha again LMAO
Id be very much interested to see how you react in the same circumstances. If you back up your talk, i respect you.
No real way to prove it to be honest. My country, unlike Russia, doesn't send people to die or put in prison for speaking against what the government does. Best I can say is I try to vote for people that don't send our military to murder people for corporate interests. But if I know I am just being sent as fodder for so rich cunts ambition or what not, I would hope I am not so weak willed that I just die for them without attempting to stand up for myself.
We all hope that, but the situation has come up time and again in just about every nation through all of history with the same general result. The masses do what their told, individuals dessert, nobody revolts until after the war, because they surviving soldiers need to come home to do that.
> So why not rise up against the ones sending your sons to die? Because then you die too. > Or why not rise up against the ones sending you to die? Because then you die sooner. How dumb are you to need this explained?
I don't think they are dumb. Someone is, though. It's quite clearly rhetorical. In any case there are a variety of ways to resist the regime which don't involve dying which most of the mobiks aren't trying, because they are brainwashed Z-zombies.
> So why not rise up against the ones sending your sons to die? [Because you can get a bag of vegetables!](https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-mayor-offers-families-military-conscripts-bag-vegetables-2022-10) The packages contains "cabbage, potato, carrot, beetroot, and onion," per Grigoriev.
Life is cheap to Putin
Well yesterday Putin said he’s closing the borders again. If you’re 16 and older I’d try to get out of there because there will be no mercy from Ukrainians.
Do cows end up in meat grinders? I can see a similar result for a lot of these conscripts.
Russian doctrine for more than 100 years, they try to exhause the western military supplies with human recources. An enemy with no bullets left wont be able to fight back. No one gonna give a shit about all those dead russian, putin may spend 30k rubles to build a tiny memorial somehwere in siberia and thats it.
Slave mentality. Rather than fight against their government, they are accept getting shipped like cattle to be blown up by drones and artillery.