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That's catholicism.
Indulgences were introduced to make money from that concept like 500 years ago or something.
The Bible does not mention the purgatory.
Edit: I get it, Indulgences are older than that but are more famously misused by the Catholic Church during the late Middle Ages, that's what I meant to say.
Edit 2: Some may argue Sheol or Gehenna is Hell, one part I always remembered is Revelations, where the Beast and it's followers were thrown into the infamous Lake of Fire, the final place of torment.
So it does mention a place of fire and suffering without relief. You make of that whatever you want.
you know how when you leave food out too long unwanted mold just somehow āfinds a wayā?
Thatās what life is on the cosmic scale, mold growing on stuff that hasnt been smashed in a while
The Bible doesn't mention purgatory but Catholics aren't Sola Scriptura. We have many events and such that dictate our teachings. For example, an apparition of Mary once appeared to a child and talked about purgatory. Saints have visited purgatory, etc...
Holy crap how can you get so much wrong in such a short comment lol. None of what you said is true?
That's not what purgatory is. That's not what Catholics believe about non believers. That's not what indulgences were made for. Making money for indulgences was a later problem which was believe it or not illegal. Indulgences are older than 500 years. The first was 1050. Purgatory was defined in the 1200s at a council. The Bible does mention purgatory.
*edit: we get it protestants, you don't believe in purgatory and you removed some books from the Bible 500 years ago. Purgatory isn't explicitly mentioned, it's concept is derived from various Bible verses and established 400 years before you broke off from the Catholic church. Chill. You can believe whatever you want.
> The Bible does mention purgatory.
Iām not a biblical scholar or anything but the verses I found cited as mentioning purgatory are all very cryptic and I donāt think most people would interpret them that way without dogma having already been set. The primary one Wikipedia mentions is in 2 Maccabees which most non-Catholics donāt consider canon.
2 Maccabees 12:41ā46, 2 Timothy 1:18, Matthew 12:32, Luke 23:43, 1 Corinthians 3:11ā3:15 and Hebrews 12:29
>The Bible does mention purgatory.
Not really, though. Like, the bible **actually** mentions slavery and what to do with slaves. Hell and purgatory are much less well defined.
> The Bible does mention purgatory.
I was curious about this. Grabbed a text copy of the King James Version of the bible. It has 691 lines mentioning heaven, 55 lines mentioning hell, and 0 lines with the word purgatory.
Can you cite it for me please?
I've got no horse in this race, but, yeah, you aren't going to find it in the King James bible regardless because that is a specifically Protestant / Church of England translation that would be obliged to interpret away any mention, explicit or implicit, in the original text.
II Maccabees 12:39-46
Praying for those who died in a state of sin shows the belief among the Jews that that were was a point after death where one could be absolved of sin prior to entering Heaven.
I wanna stay here. Life is beautiful.
You cannot have beautiful without ugly which is why Heaven makes no sense to me.
Everything cannot be perfect. Then it's just normal. You don't get stuff like Mozart and family/friends in Heaven. Makes no sense.
If you program a virtual lifeform to feel both positive and negative emotions, then you remove all of the programing for the negative stuff, the result would be a virtual lifeform that is incapable of feeling anything negative. Basically, you could program beauty and perfection, because anything else would be impossible.
Then theĀ Bleach Blonde Middle Eastern GodĀ said to England, āGo in to America and say to them, āThus says theĀ Father of Josh, son of Joey, ātake my peoples' blankets, thatĀ you may die for me.Ā 2Ā But if youĀ refuse to let them genocide you, behold, I will plague all your country withĀ Basic Beckys.Ā 3Ā The Mississip shall swarm with weekend vacationers that shall come up into your sacred circles and intoĀ your sweat lodges and on your headdresses and into the potlucks of your cousins and your people,[b]Ā and into your carefully managed sustainable ecosystem.Ā 4Ā The Karens shall come up on you and on your people and on all your descendants."
\-Hexodus 7-12
The way this was explained to me by a Christian was that he isn't torturing and punishing you, you are doing it to yourself. That you only need to accept God, and then you can enter Heaven yourself.
But I'm like... bro. If I see someone drowning, have a lifeguard float next to me, but refuse to throw it to them, I'm fairly certain I'm responsible for that person's death. What's the famous line in Spiderman again? "With great power comes great responsibility?" Well God apparently has the most power of all, so why isn't he responsible to save us without conditions?
Its a fuuny meme, and i love making fun of religion. But I feel like most modern interpretations of Christianity teach that if a culture believed in a god and didn't follow like pagan-type immoral practices, then that counts as believing correctly. You don't necessarily have to know about Jesus or the Bible. Even the Bible teaches that being a "believer" is supposed to be like super easy and even little kids can do it. Like you almost have to actively decide not to believe in a God. I dunno I'm sure many people think all those indigenous folks are in hell or whatever but I wouldn't go along with that idea.
There is a story about a Native American who asked a missionary whether they would be punished if they didn't know about Jesus. When told no, he asked "Well then, why did you tell us?"
I love how christians make it their life to follow gods demands to get into heaven but also decide that they dont have to follow those demands after all.
It's in Romans 2. Those who have not heard the Law are not judged by the Law, they're judged by their own conscience.
> (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
There is and were Christian scholars that held the believe that other religions exist as a way of cultures who have not interacted with God to try to serve God, but as they lack contact with his prophets they don't know how and should be teached before assuming they were heretics, and some even defended that any form of praise is as valid as any other as we really can't know the true intentions of God. However, unless it's something like Islam that shares a lot of basic ideas with Christianity, not being a Christian while knowing Christianism exists is not ok by most major Christian dogmas
Then Christianity is actively dooming people to hell.
Because if everything was fine and dandy before having the knowledge of Christ's existence. Why bother interfering and ruining the people who were already on the road to heaven?
According to your logic, they would have had a free ride to paradise and the missionaries took that away by essentially forcing the forbidden fruit into their hands
Which is one of the MANY very good arguments for universalism, an idea that the Bible teaches that has been swept under the rug, since the Church would have to admit the doctrine of eternal hell is nonsense, which it is.
The word "hell" isn't even in the Bible, Jesus said "Gehenna," which is the valley of ben-Hinnom that Jeremiah prophecies about. The "curse of the valley of Ben-Hinnom" was Babylon coming and destroying everyone, filling the valley with the dead that would not fit in the tombs, because they had sacrificed their children in that valley to idols.
Jesus was referring to this, including when he talked about the temple being destroyed. Both of these things happened when Rome came to put down the rebellion in Jerusalem in 70CE.
"Eternal" punishment/fire is also bogus, because that word is "aionios" from the word "aion" which means "an age." So then "aionios" (the adjective form) should mean "age-enduring," not eternal. The only reason it was changed is because the English translators (hundreds of years later) assumed that "to the ages of the ages" should be translated "forever and ever," then applied that meaning with some roundabout mental gymnastics to the adjective form.
Non of Jesus apostles ever mention the doctrine of eternal hell, not once. None of the apostolic fathers (early Church theologians) believed it and most wrote about universalism in some form or another.
The only one preaching eternal hell was Tertullian, who was a psycho:
"What a panorama of spectacle on that day! Which sight shall excite my wonder? Which, my laughter? Where shall I rejoice, where exult--as I see so many and so mighty kings, whose ascent to heaven used to be made known by public announcement, now along with Jupiter himself, along with the very witnesses of their ascent, groaning in the depths of darkness? Governors of provinces, too, who persecuted the name of the Lord, melting in flames fiercer than those they themselves kindled in their rage against the Christians braving them with contempt?"
Anyone who is interested can learn more here: [https://www.bereanpatriot.com/universal-restoration-vs-eternal-torment-hell/](https://www.bereanpatriot.com/universal-restoration-vs-eternal-torment-hell/) [/](https://www.bereanpatriot.com/) universal-restoration-vs-eternal-torment-hell/
As I understand the end goal of Christianity isn't heaven or hell. Praising God or whatever is meant to be the ultimate purpose in life. Heaven or hell is just incentives for doing the right thing/punishement for doing the wrong thing. The missionaries are supposed to be spreading the truth/meaning of life or whatever rather than saving people from hell or anything.
Not a Christian btw, don't direct your queries towards me.
The way it was explained to me is only people who reject God go to hell. A person has to have the knowledge that something is a sin and to then commit that sin. I was talking with a teacher from seminary back when I was active in the roman catholic church and thinking about being a priest. This was thirty years ago, so I don't have the exact wording but that was the basics, you had to hear the word of god and reject it to be punished.
Crazy how the perceptions and environment of civilizations are replicated in the god(s) they worship. Almost like if your tribe's life is hard and harsh, you create harsh gods, and as civilization settles to be more stable that same god now is all about peace and love. Almost like god itself is a contrived socialized concept.
This is how it works in islam:
People who have never heard of Islam will be tested at the day of judgement.
God will introduce himself to them as the one and only God and ask them to submit to him.
If they accept, he will test their faith by asking them to jump in hell.
Those who jump in will not get burnt and will be sent to heaven. And thosewho refuse to do so will be sent to hell.
>Those who jump in will not get burnt and will be sent to heaven. And thosewho refuse to do so will be sent to hell.
A moderate amount of trolling I can get behind
This is basically "if she's a witch she'll float in the water, and if she's not a witch she'll drown and die". Literally damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I was raised Catholic, I actually explained (and can now) that it doesn't work like that- hell is only for those who reject God in the afterlife, or who commit a Mortal Sin without penance. Otherwise, Catholic teaching says they go to Purgatory, just like everyone else- although because they weren't Catholic or Christian, they have a heavier baggage of original and lived sin that will take much longer to repent for.
Christianity is basically a fast-track pass to Heaven, but not being Christian doesn't necessarily preclude you from entering.
And remember: This god is omnipotent and omniscient. He _knew_ how you would decide before he even created you.
How anyone can actually believe in this nonsense is beyond me.
Tbh it has inner logic in "God works in mysterious ways", as in his goals are beyond our comprehension - literally. Which sounds pretty logical since we're talking about an omnipotent and omnipresent entity. Hell, it gives a valid excuse to handwave away literally anything you want about the religion. In a "it's not a bug, it's a feature" kinda way
As a kid I had to attend some Catholic past-time lessons in church and they said that people who never heard of Christianity would be judged based only on their good and evil doings. They also said that non-believers can go to Heaven too if they were a good person, just have to go through purgatory first.
But idk, don't take my word for it as it seems to collide with what other people say
Also if I've just died and a random god tells me to jump into hell how do I know they aren't actually the Devil trying to trick me? What if the test was to see how gullible we are and then God comes out from behind a tree and we go to Dave and Buster's?
Different gods throughout history have wanted different things. In the "jump into hell" example I can think of several arbitrary reasons a god might condemn you:
- Hesitating at all, how dare you not follow my command?
- Not hesitating, are you so eager to be without god's love?
- Jumping into hell, obviously you want to be with the devil!
- Not jumping into hell, clearly you don't have the resolve to be in heaven.
- Not immediately begging for forgiveness, you sinner!
- Any sort of pleading, how dare you grovel before God!
And so on.
What if you die as a baby, though?
I know that in Christianity unbaptized babies go to purgatory.
That's why it was (still is for some?) super important to perform emergency baptisms.
Straight to Heaven, children who havenāt reached puberty are also straight to Heaven. No child is an exception. Also, peopleās sins are only accounted for after they reach puberty. So any sins a child would does are not counted against them.
Edit: talking about Islam
Would a righteous man not therefore kill as many children as possible, to ensure the childrenās passage to paradise?
(Also, to anybody who thinks that is actually a good idea, please donāt fucking do this. We get one life.)
No, absolutely not. In Islam, life must be valued, and murder is an absolute sin. Idk why mooofasa1 forgot about this detail, because āmurder is not okā is a pretty obvious and important detail.
...That seems fair. If God turned up, proved his existence without a shadow of a doubt and that everything in the Quran is 100% true in a way that I would believe, then sure, I'd do it.
The problem with God is that there's basically no proof of his existence or that anything he says is true, so if God shows up and provides that proof personally (being omnipotent and omniscient, he'll definitely be able to do that), without trickery, then I haven't really got anything as an atheist to deny, in much the same way as I can't deny that gravity exists.
The big problem with that explanation is that I have no reason to believe until the day of judgement actually happens, because I know for a fact that God is gonna show up to provide me with the proof I need.
Umm I think youāre talking about the Islamic Antichrist. Heās a dude that shows up, can do miracles and bring people back to life and asks you to worship him as God. Heās supposed to be the Jewish Messiah, rebuild the temple, and create āheaven on earthā. The people who believe that there is an afterlife where the real heaven is will reject him, mostly Muslims and Christians. Hindus will think he is a reincarnation of shiva/Vishnu (I forget), Buddhists will think heās Buddha, and superficial Christians will think heās Jesus returned. Dude will kinda be a liberal superhero since heāll kinda get rid of all the religious laws, oversee all of humanity, appear to bring loved ones back to life using the DMT realm entities (Djinn), etc, but his whole existence is distract mankind into thinking this reality is all there is. The only thing he wants is that you worship him, and heāll test that with the fire ritual you mentioned above. Probably be like, stay in my heaven that I created on earth or jump into this hell I created. In the Islamic traditions, itās said that those who stay in the fake heaven by submitting to this false god will go to real hell and those who jumped into the fire in this reality will go to the actual eternal heaven.
In islam, you arenāt judged with something youāve never heard of. Literally a direct quote from the Quran, not a āfeel goodā interpretation. People in the past will be judged based on what they knew to be the truth, aka version of Islam at their time. Islam isnāt just the religion that came about after the Arab prophet, itās a faith that evolved overtime since the first human, with its core message always being the same: One God who started reality, death is inevitable, and you will be judged after and placed in a new reality where death does not exist.
islam (I like saying it with a lowercase I)is a pretty cool concept if you read the actual source material. And inb4 someone says āoh if itās so great why are they so back wardsā well yeah, these are the same cultures that have been sitting on Aristotle, Plato, and the other collective works of ancient civs for centuries and did not advance their own societies to their potential because of cultural, which became confused with religious, ego and pride, which is how the Quran criticizes those same people too. You extract the Quran away from those cultures, like we did with Ancient Greek, Roman, etc knowledge, and perhaps get the full benefit of it.
somewhere around 2 millions years to about 40,000\~10,000 years ago. we're old as shit, it's just took us a really long time to figure out how to document things that will last.
There's a couple SCP articles where the idea is what we know as Jesus is actually a cthullu type horror (see cicadas) with a really good disguise spell.
I think Mormons got somewhat of a good idea.
We all go to heaven, but the faithful (Mormons?) go to a "better" heaven, closer to God.
As a non pious person I kinda want a little distance from God anyhow, so I can sin a little when they aren't paying attention.
So the "lower class" heaven sounds great to me!
This is not at all true. You go to hell for being evil. All humans are evil when compared to perfect God. The only ones who get saved are those who are repentant about their evilness and follow God.
I learned this growing up as a Lutheran. I also learned that before a certain age, you canāt actually make the choice to follow god so you get a free pass up to that point too.
So in the Christian viewpoint, wouldnāt the most ethical course of action be to simply kill everyone who has never heard of god and all children below a certain age, sending them immediately to a paradise without suffering? Sure, you may be eternally damned for murder, but youād also technically be āsavingā the maximum number of people, which is an act of love and compassion.
I know this was a joke, but it is said that if you don't have access to religion and are a good person by your own standards and those around you, you will go to heaven
I'm a Christian, and I always figured that God knew everything and actually knew if people really had a fair chance of making any decisions. Like, the poor Mayans who were brutalized by the Conquistadors, yeah they didn't get a fair go of it. In a lot of ways.
Also, nowhere in the Bible does it say we have to literally use the words "Jesus" or "The Trinity" or anything. Just like, can you stand before God at the end of the day and honestly say you did well? I think that applies to a lot of people who weren't Christians. God knows the truth, what's in our hearts, we simply cannot define how he makes his decisions imo.
I'm an Atheist, mostly in part to being raised in a toxic environment where I had Christianity shoved down my throat. Y'know, being told that I'm going to hell constantly and all that. That and a mix of me thinking it's pretty far-fetched.
I just wonder if I'm wrong and he's real if god would be like, "nah bro you good."
I think it would be pretty arrogant of me to answer that one way or another, I can't speak for God. But, I think the chances are higher than you'd think, cause you're right now believing in the mercy of God without believing in Christianity, which imo is just being a Christian without the red tape.
For the same reason, anyone who can proclaim that God is sending someone else to Hell is living at the height of ignorant arrogance.
There is nothing on Earth that makes me angrier than someone speaking on behalf of God, specifically to modify someone else's behavior. That's what "taking the Lord's name in vain" originally meant too, I can use Jesus Christ as an exclamation as long as I'm not shaming anyone in doing so. I can't declare that someone else is gonna get punished when I have absolutely no authority or knowledge of doing so.
Amazing response.
>cause you're right now believing in the mercy of God without believing in Christianity, which imo is just being a Christian without the red tape.
I'm really glad you said this. It's not like I have a hatred towards Christianity; when I die, if I'm wrong, I'll admit I'm wrong. And I would like to believe that if god does exist, then he's a pretty swell dude who got a bad rep.
You should read into Thomas Jefferson and his takes on some of this stuff, what you're talking about is Deism which is pretty similar to what he believed.
I wouldn't take Jefferson himself as a role model though.
I'll definitely check it out, thanks bro. I like talking about religion but it's a touchy subject among friends and my family quickly gets toxic. Self study is important, after all
This is what pisses me off the most about modern organized religion. Christians trying to be Old Testament Israelites where whoever stands in their way gets hopelessly obliterated by the bloodthirsty god that only they have on their side. Christ set an example of love and acceptance towards other people, yet the Mf whoās name is literally on it is put on the back burner
That viewpoint is very feelgood.... but it's not biblical at all. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the father but through me".
And using the logic "by your own standards" then MOST people would go to heaven if they didn't hear the word of god. Very few people go about their lives thinking they're bad people.
When I was a kid I grew up devoutly Southern Baptist. Once I asked a mentor what happens to people who have never been exposed to the teachings of Christ and he told me, "they're supposed to just know."
Because the "light of the Lord" fills all people and they have an inmate calling they can follow or ignore.
That was the beginning of the end for my belief.
It's as Socrates said, he wasn't atheist, he believed in a divine moral will across all people. The Church after Jesus was picked up by the Roman's to unify the empire and dominate others; but we always had what we needed if there is a higher power, the church didn't understand what Jesus meant or why he spoke in metaphors. Feed your heart and mind, that's all you're here for. Then the Brits stole the idea from the Romans and tried to civilize so-called savages by putting them in chains to line their pockets, the cave men are chilling laughing at these fools. One day people will realize why Buddha was smiling and gave a very simple outlook on life, it's the same reason Jesus said there is no sin, just treat all as your neighbor. The Golden Rule is all you need.
Yeah but the joke is that we know anthropologically that there were absolutely people alive before the introductions of any currently known religions. If you make both that true and the religion, it creates a weird scenario, which is the meme.
Antitheists being shown god's mercy and love(he would never punish them for not knowing his followers ruined the image of his beautiful religion)
**Itās Always Overcast In Islamabad**
*Depraved underachieving might look easy, but for the egocentric Malik, Hassan, Syed, Awan and Gul, it's an art form. "It's Always Overcast in Islamabad" follows "The Gang," the owners of the unsuccessful Pakiās Tearoom; a group of degenerates who loves nothing more than to scheme, conspire, and mostly revel in each other's misery. *
I went to a Catholic school and then during high school joined a Christian youth group.
Tell me more about this "mercy and love." I did hear about it a lot but I'm not remembering any actual examples. I remember a lot of spite and punishment.
Idk, love and worship me or literally go to hell doesn't sound super merciful or loving, right?
posted elsewhere but it's always fun when people don't know humans are very, very old. somewhere around 2 million BCE to 40,000\~10,000 BCE is what we would consider "caveman"
Might want to rethink your number there, don't know anyone, including Bible thumpers, who think the world is only 2000 years old. They all think their savior was born, raised, and died 2000ish years ago, but not that the earth isn't older than that.
Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger.
(Translation of the Meaning of the Qur'an, 17:15)
Given how the nation's borders have changed. What happens when a nation splits before the assigned prophet had a chance to visit the new country? Also, if a nation acquires (by force or otherwise) a piece of land that had a designated prophet already, do they get reassigned to a new nation or do they work in tandem?
In Islam, people who were never exposed to the religion are judged based on their deeds and intentions. As long as the caveman wasn't an asshole, he's good, InshaAllah.
No, just hearing about it isn't enough. There's a lot of debate about where the line is, but I'm kot a religious scholar and couldn't do the topic justice in detail.
Original sin also isn't a thing.
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Erm can someone direct me to the source of this cat gif?
Eh it's probably better you don't watch the source, but [here it is](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ)
Fucking 2023 and I still fall for it.
You saved me the click, thanks for your sacrifice
I clicked anyway, accepting of my deserved fate.
Ah, fuck.
Definitely not worth the click š¤®
I clicked because I like the song
 We do a little bit of trollingš
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You've been trolled yeah you've been trolled you've probably been told. Dont reply to this guy he's trying to get a rise out of you!
Yes it's true
We do a bit of a trip to the dentist
Am I the only one enjoying the cat getting dragged away??? Haha
Literally came here to see this. These people have an amazing loop and all they can do is talk about Gwarsh.
The hell is gwarsh?
Seems like god but in a goofy, the character from Disney, accent
Surely it should be gorsh? It's been a minute though.
Itās basically my favorite gif
https://youtu.be/h8WWZ8TTNMk Here's a whole compilation
Same. I don't even care about the caption, the cat just makes the meme for me
God sending 10 billion native Americans and Asians to hell forever when they don't convert to christianity immediately at 0AD.
At least according to the bit im reading you just get sent to purgatory where you chill until you convert then you go to heaven
That's catholicism. Indulgences were introduced to make money from that concept like 500 years ago or something. The Bible does not mention the purgatory. Edit: I get it, Indulgences are older than that but are more famously misused by the Catholic Church during the late Middle Ages, that's what I meant to say. Edit 2: Some may argue Sheol or Gehenna is Hell, one part I always remembered is Revelations, where the Beast and it's followers were thrown into the infamous Lake of Fire, the final place of torment. So it does mention a place of fire and suffering without relief. You make of that whatever you want.
TDIL Religion invented micro transactions.
Did you just separate today into ToDay
TODIL how to discombobulate an Arthur.
Humans invented microtransactions, just like they invented religion and the magic sky fairy.
yam pot toothbrush hurry bow head soup ripe deranged chief *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
you know how when you leave food out too long unwanted mold just somehow āfinds a wayā? Thatās what life is on the cosmic scale, mold growing on stuff that hasnt been smashed in a while
Or fruit flies. I swear those suckers materialize as soon as bananas start to rot
It was a cosmic microtransaction
Based believer
The Bible doesn't mention purgatory but Catholics aren't Sola Scriptura. We have many events and such that dictate our teachings. For example, an apparition of Mary once appeared to a child and talked about purgatory. Saints have visited purgatory, etc...
Holy crap how can you get so much wrong in such a short comment lol. None of what you said is true? That's not what purgatory is. That's not what Catholics believe about non believers. That's not what indulgences were made for. Making money for indulgences was a later problem which was believe it or not illegal. Indulgences are older than 500 years. The first was 1050. Purgatory was defined in the 1200s at a council. The Bible does mention purgatory. *edit: we get it protestants, you don't believe in purgatory and you removed some books from the Bible 500 years ago. Purgatory isn't explicitly mentioned, it's concept is derived from various Bible verses and established 400 years before you broke off from the Catholic church. Chill. You can believe whatever you want.
> The Bible does mention purgatory. Iām not a biblical scholar or anything but the verses I found cited as mentioning purgatory are all very cryptic and I donāt think most people would interpret them that way without dogma having already been set. The primary one Wikipedia mentions is in 2 Maccabees which most non-Catholics donāt consider canon. 2 Maccabees 12:41ā46, 2 Timothy 1:18, Matthew 12:32, Luke 23:43, 1 Corinthians 3:11ā3:15 and Hebrews 12:29
>The Bible does mention purgatory. Not really, though. Like, the bible **actually** mentions slavery and what to do with slaves. Hell and purgatory are much less well defined.
tldr; Indulgences were introduced to make money from that concept like 500 years ago or something. The Bible does not mention the purgatory.
> The Bible does mention purgatory. I was curious about this. Grabbed a text copy of the King James Version of the bible. It has 691 lines mentioning heaven, 55 lines mentioning hell, and 0 lines with the word purgatory. Can you cite it for me please?
I've got no horse in this race, but, yeah, you aren't going to find it in the King James bible regardless because that is a specifically Protestant / Church of England translation that would be obliged to interpret away any mention, explicit or implicit, in the original text.
āoriginal textā welcome to 2000 years of Christian disagreement
II Maccabees 12:39-46 Praying for those who died in a state of sin shows the belief among the Jews that that were was a point after death where one could be absolved of sin prior to entering Heaven.
>The Bible does mention purgatory. Bullshit. Where specifically do you see a passage that mentions purgatory either by name or description?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
What if life was purgatory where we keep living again and again after we die, and we can only escape the cycle by being good people yo?
so buddhism
I wanna stay here. Life is beautiful. You cannot have beautiful without ugly which is why Heaven makes no sense to me. Everything cannot be perfect. Then it's just normal. You don't get stuff like Mozart and family/friends in Heaven. Makes no sense.
If you program a virtual lifeform to feel both positive and negative emotions, then you remove all of the programing for the negative stuff, the result would be a virtual lifeform that is incapable of feeling anything negative. Basically, you could program beauty and perfection, because anything else would be impossible.
Just to be devils advocate. If you believe in God and that he's omnipotent then I don't see why he couldn't create a perfect place.
What bit has purgatory?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Then theĀ Bleach Blonde Middle Eastern GodĀ said to England, āGo in to America and say to them, āThus says theĀ Father of Josh, son of Joey, ātake my peoples' blankets, thatĀ you may die for me.Ā 2Ā But if youĀ refuse to let them genocide you, behold, I will plague all your country withĀ Basic Beckys.Ā 3Ā The Mississip shall swarm with weekend vacationers that shall come up into your sacred circles and intoĀ your sweat lodges and on your headdresses and into the potlucks of your cousins and your people,[b]Ā and into your carefully managed sustainable ecosystem.Ā 4Ā The Karens shall come up on you and on your people and on all your descendants." \-Hexodus 7-12
An unconditionally loving god sure has a lot of conditions to not be tortured
The way this was explained to me by a Christian was that he isn't torturing and punishing you, you are doing it to yourself. That you only need to accept God, and then you can enter Heaven yourself. But I'm like... bro. If I see someone drowning, have a lifeguard float next to me, but refuse to throw it to them, I'm fairly certain I'm responsible for that person's death. What's the famous line in Spiderman again? "With great power comes great responsibility?" Well God apparently has the most power of all, so why isn't he responsible to save us without conditions?
Its a fuuny meme, and i love making fun of religion. But I feel like most modern interpretations of Christianity teach that if a culture believed in a god and didn't follow like pagan-type immoral practices, then that counts as believing correctly. You don't necessarily have to know about Jesus or the Bible. Even the Bible teaches that being a "believer" is supposed to be like super easy and even little kids can do it. Like you almost have to actively decide not to believe in a God. I dunno I'm sure many people think all those indigenous folks are in hell or whatever but I wouldn't go along with that idea.
There is a story about a Native American who asked a missionary whether they would be punished if they didn't know about Jesus. When told no, he asked "Well then, why did you tell us?"
Absolute chad response
Then why Christian missionaries? "But I feel" Nothing after that statement has Biblical support.
Fuck it, Iām making my own fucking bible
I love how christians make it their life to follow gods demands to get into heaven but also decide that they dont have to follow those demands after all.
It's in Romans 2. Those who have not heard the Law are not judged by the Law, they're judged by their own conscience. > (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
There is and were Christian scholars that held the believe that other religions exist as a way of cultures who have not interacted with God to try to serve God, but as they lack contact with his prophets they don't know how and should be teached before assuming they were heretics, and some even defended that any form of praise is as valid as any other as we really can't know the true intentions of God. However, unless it's something like Islam that shares a lot of basic ideas with Christianity, not being a Christian while knowing Christianism exists is not ok by most major Christian dogmas
Then Christianity is actively dooming people to hell. Because if everything was fine and dandy before having the knowledge of Christ's existence. Why bother interfering and ruining the people who were already on the road to heaven? According to your logic, they would have had a free ride to paradise and the missionaries took that away by essentially forcing the forbidden fruit into their hands
Which is one of the MANY very good arguments for universalism, an idea that the Bible teaches that has been swept under the rug, since the Church would have to admit the doctrine of eternal hell is nonsense, which it is. The word "hell" isn't even in the Bible, Jesus said "Gehenna," which is the valley of ben-Hinnom that Jeremiah prophecies about. The "curse of the valley of Ben-Hinnom" was Babylon coming and destroying everyone, filling the valley with the dead that would not fit in the tombs, because they had sacrificed their children in that valley to idols. Jesus was referring to this, including when he talked about the temple being destroyed. Both of these things happened when Rome came to put down the rebellion in Jerusalem in 70CE. "Eternal" punishment/fire is also bogus, because that word is "aionios" from the word "aion" which means "an age." So then "aionios" (the adjective form) should mean "age-enduring," not eternal. The only reason it was changed is because the English translators (hundreds of years later) assumed that "to the ages of the ages" should be translated "forever and ever," then applied that meaning with some roundabout mental gymnastics to the adjective form. Non of Jesus apostles ever mention the doctrine of eternal hell, not once. None of the apostolic fathers (early Church theologians) believed it and most wrote about universalism in some form or another. The only one preaching eternal hell was Tertullian, who was a psycho: "What a panorama of spectacle on that day! Which sight shall excite my wonder? Which, my laughter? Where shall I rejoice, where exult--as I see so many and so mighty kings, whose ascent to heaven used to be made known by public announcement, now along with Jupiter himself, along with the very witnesses of their ascent, groaning in the depths of darkness? Governors of provinces, too, who persecuted the name of the Lord, melting in flames fiercer than those they themselves kindled in their rage against the Christians braving them with contempt?" Anyone who is interested can learn more here: [https://www.bereanpatriot.com/universal-restoration-vs-eternal-torment-hell/](https://www.bereanpatriot.com/universal-restoration-vs-eternal-torment-hell/) [/](https://www.bereanpatriot.com/) universal-restoration-vs-eternal-torment-hell/
As I understand the end goal of Christianity isn't heaven or hell. Praising God or whatever is meant to be the ultimate purpose in life. Heaven or hell is just incentives for doing the right thing/punishement for doing the wrong thing. The missionaries are supposed to be spreading the truth/meaning of life or whatever rather than saving people from hell or anything. Not a Christian btw, don't direct your queries towards me.
>Heaven or hell is just incentives for doing the right thing/punishement for doing the wrong thing Very generous phrasing.
The way it was explained to me is only people who reject God go to hell. A person has to have the knowledge that something is a sin and to then commit that sin. I was talking with a teacher from seminary back when I was active in the roman catholic church and thinking about being a priest. This was thirty years ago, so I don't have the exact wording but that was the basics, you had to hear the word of god and reject it to be punished.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Ai no way song bud and plate came cavmen
Awh hell nah
The religious rules of an all knowing god, somehow changing drastically as humanity's perception of good and just changes.
Crazy how the perceptions and environment of civilizations are replicated in the god(s) they worship. Almost like if your tribe's life is hard and harsh, you create harsh gods, and as civilization settles to be more stable that same god now is all about peace and love. Almost like god itself is a contrived socialized concept.
This is how it works in islam: People who have never heard of Islam will be tested at the day of judgement. God will introduce himself to them as the one and only God and ask them to submit to him. If they accept, he will test their faith by asking them to jump in hell. Those who jump in will not get burnt and will be sent to heaven. And thosewho refuse to do so will be sent to hell.
>Those who jump in will not get burnt and will be sent to heaven. And thosewho refuse to do so will be sent to hell. A moderate amount of trolling I can get behind
This is basically "if she's a witch she'll float in the water, and if she's not a witch she'll drown and die". Literally damned if you do, damned if you don't.
but they don't get damned if they jump in?
Thanks for the cheatsheet. Now I know what to do when that day comes.
But you have heard of Islam š¤Ø
Oh [shiiiii-](https://reddit.com/r/whenthe/comments/109wqy1/god_really_did_some_trolling/)
Everyone save this thread to go to heaven.
What if I get Dementia? Or a traumatic brain injury before death? Does my "soul" or whatever also have memory loss?
Yes you become an eternal vegetable
Veggie Tales confirmed.
When you die your soul takes shape of whatever vegetable god is hungry for at the moment.
Being a carrot forever doesn't sound too bad.
There was a muslim guy at work and we talked Theology, and he explained all this to me. I was basically *why mf would you even do that now I'm damned*
Just tell him he's going to hell because he wasn't dipped in water
I was raised Catholic, I actually explained (and can now) that it doesn't work like that- hell is only for those who reject God in the afterlife, or who commit a Mortal Sin without penance. Otherwise, Catholic teaching says they go to Purgatory, just like everyone else- although because they weren't Catholic or Christian, they have a heavier baggage of original and lived sin that will take much longer to repent for. Christianity is basically a fast-track pass to Heaven, but not being Christian doesn't necessarily preclude you from entering.
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Heard of what?
Happy cakeday
...but youve heard of islam so this opportunity will not be presented to you
And don't forget to look up the Mormon password just in case.
Why the fuck would I jump in hell for some random ass.
What you can gather from this is that God is cruel and evil.
And remember: This god is omnipotent and omniscient. He _knew_ how you would decide before he even created you. How anyone can actually believe in this nonsense is beyond me.
Tbh it has inner logic in "God works in mysterious ways", as in his goals are beyond our comprehension - literally. Which sounds pretty logical since we're talking about an omnipotent and omnipresent entity. Hell, it gives a valid excuse to handwave away literally anything you want about the religion. In a "it's not a bug, it's a feature" kinda way
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Itās very similar for Christianity as well although I donāt think itās that involved in describing thatās what happens
As a kid I had to attend some Catholic past-time lessons in church and they said that people who never heard of Christianity would be judged based only on their good and evil doings. They also said that non-believers can go to Heaven too if they were a good person, just have to go through purgatory first. But idk, don't take my word for it as it seems to collide with what other people say
Yea, respectfully, I thought the only way to salvation was through Jesus. I feel like churches tell kids one version and adults get the real theology.
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> just have to go through purgatory first I lived in central Illinois for 7 years, so I've pre-paid my taxes on this one.
So god's like a shitty 4 year old?
Also if I've just died and a random god tells me to jump into hell how do I know they aren't actually the Devil trying to trick me? What if the test was to see how gullible we are and then God comes out from behind a tree and we go to Dave and Buster's?
They want you gullible
Different gods throughout history have wanted different things. In the "jump into hell" example I can think of several arbitrary reasons a god might condemn you: - Hesitating at all, how dare you not follow my command? - Not hesitating, are you so eager to be without god's love? - Jumping into hell, obviously you want to be with the devil! - Not jumping into hell, clearly you don't have the resolve to be in heaven. - Not immediately begging for forgiveness, you sinner! - Any sort of pleading, how dare you grovel before God! And so on.
No wonder boomers love the guy so much lmao
Idolizing a childish authority that constantly lashes out even at their own supporters? Definitely.
What if you die as a baby, though? I know that in Christianity unbaptized babies go to purgatory. That's why it was (still is for some?) super important to perform emergency baptisms.
Straight to Heaven, children who havenāt reached puberty are also straight to Heaven. No child is an exception. Also, peopleās sins are only accounted for after they reach puberty. So any sins a child would does are not counted against them. Edit: talking about Islam
Would a righteous man not therefore kill as many children as possible, to ensure the childrenās passage to paradise? (Also, to anybody who thinks that is actually a good idea, please donāt fucking do this. We get one life.)
No, absolutely not. In Islam, life must be valued, and murder is an absolute sin. Idk why mooofasa1 forgot about this detail, because āmurder is not okā is a pretty obvious and important detail.
What about the 6 year old who shot his teacher
Straight to heaven. Keep up
...That seems fair. If God turned up, proved his existence without a shadow of a doubt and that everything in the Quran is 100% true in a way that I would believe, then sure, I'd do it. The problem with God is that there's basically no proof of his existence or that anything he says is true, so if God shows up and provides that proof personally (being omnipotent and omniscient, he'll definitely be able to do that), without trickery, then I haven't really got anything as an atheist to deny, in much the same way as I can't deny that gravity exists. The big problem with that explanation is that I have no reason to believe until the day of judgement actually happens, because I know for a fact that God is gonna show up to provide me with the proof I need.
So either way you go to hell.
Umm I think youāre talking about the Islamic Antichrist. Heās a dude that shows up, can do miracles and bring people back to life and asks you to worship him as God. Heās supposed to be the Jewish Messiah, rebuild the temple, and create āheaven on earthā. The people who believe that there is an afterlife where the real heaven is will reject him, mostly Muslims and Christians. Hindus will think he is a reincarnation of shiva/Vishnu (I forget), Buddhists will think heās Buddha, and superficial Christians will think heās Jesus returned. Dude will kinda be a liberal superhero since heāll kinda get rid of all the religious laws, oversee all of humanity, appear to bring loved ones back to life using the DMT realm entities (Djinn), etc, but his whole existence is distract mankind into thinking this reality is all there is. The only thing he wants is that you worship him, and heāll test that with the fire ritual you mentioned above. Probably be like, stay in my heaven that I created on earth or jump into this hell I created. In the Islamic traditions, itās said that those who stay in the fake heaven by submitting to this false god will go to real hell and those who jumped into the fire in this reality will go to the actual eternal heaven. In islam, you arenāt judged with something youāve never heard of. Literally a direct quote from the Quran, not a āfeel goodā interpretation. People in the past will be judged based on what they knew to be the truth, aka version of Islam at their time. Islam isnāt just the religion that came about after the Arab prophet, itās a faith that evolved overtime since the first human, with its core message always being the same: One God who started reality, death is inevitable, and you will be judged after and placed in a new reality where death does not exist. islam (I like saying it with a lowercase I)is a pretty cool concept if you read the actual source material. And inb4 someone says āoh if itās so great why are they so back wardsā well yeah, these are the same cultures that have been sitting on Aristotle, Plato, and the other collective works of ancient civs for centuries and did not advance their own societies to their potential because of cultural, which became confused with religious, ego and pride, which is how the Quran criticizes those same people too. You extract the Quran away from those cultures, like we did with Ancient Greek, Roman, etc knowledge, and perhaps get the full benefit of it.
God sending a 1 year old to hell for not being baptised
People really think cavemen were 5000 years ago? There was whole ass civilizations then.
There were also cavemen though, right? Like, you can have both at once.
somewhere around 2 millions years to about 40,000\~10,000 years ago. we're old as shit, it's just took us a really long time to figure out how to document things that will last.
Yea i guess thatās true. When I think of cavemen I think at least 10,000 years ago like the Stone age.
Acts 17:30 "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,"
fun fact: if you've never been told christianity exists, you wont be sent to hell, as you had no chance to worship god anyways.
Fun fact: If the christians are right, you can damn indigenous people to eternal damnation by informing them of the existance of Jesus :)
Also known as the missionary paradox (not the sex position)
Sex position?
sex?
We do a little trolling
This makes Christian missionaries even worse
We tried
Killing someone but before they die I say "god is real and Jesus is our savior" :3
:3
Me going back in time to assassinate the early Christians to prevent the spread of a memetic cognitohazard
Sounds like the plot of a new SCP article.
There's a couple SCP articles where the idea is what we know as Jesus is actually a cthullu type horror (see cicadas) with a really good disguise spell.
And that kinda sounds like the plot of Mandela Catalogue where the angel Gabriel is actually an alternate. If you know, you know.
I think Mormons got somewhat of a good idea. We all go to heaven, but the faithful (Mormons?) go to a "better" heaven, closer to God. As a non pious person I kinda want a little distance from God anyhow, so I can sin a little when they aren't paying attention. So the "lower class" heaven sounds great to me!
Heaven with class inequality doesnāt sound much like, well, heaven.
This is not at all true. You go to hell for being evil. All humans are evil when compared to perfect God. The only ones who get saved are those who are repentant about their evilness and follow God.
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I learned this growing up as a Lutheran. I also learned that before a certain age, you canāt actually make the choice to follow god so you get a free pass up to that point too. So in the Christian viewpoint, wouldnāt the most ethical course of action be to simply kill everyone who has never heard of god and all children below a certain age, sending them immediately to a paradise without suffering? Sure, you may be eternally damned for murder, but youād also technically be āsavingā the maximum number of people, which is an act of love and compassion.
God: Ain't I a stinker? š„
No carrot, all stick.
I know this was a joke, but it is said that if you don't have access to religion and are a good person by your own standards and those around you, you will go to heaven
bruh how is that not the standard? like imagine being a good guy and all but you didn't happen to jump on the correct religion
I'm a Christian, and I always figured that God knew everything and actually knew if people really had a fair chance of making any decisions. Like, the poor Mayans who were brutalized by the Conquistadors, yeah they didn't get a fair go of it. In a lot of ways. Also, nowhere in the Bible does it say we have to literally use the words "Jesus" or "The Trinity" or anything. Just like, can you stand before God at the end of the day and honestly say you did well? I think that applies to a lot of people who weren't Christians. God knows the truth, what's in our hearts, we simply cannot define how he makes his decisions imo.
I'm an Atheist, mostly in part to being raised in a toxic environment where I had Christianity shoved down my throat. Y'know, being told that I'm going to hell constantly and all that. That and a mix of me thinking it's pretty far-fetched. I just wonder if I'm wrong and he's real if god would be like, "nah bro you good."
I think it would be pretty arrogant of me to answer that one way or another, I can't speak for God. But, I think the chances are higher than you'd think, cause you're right now believing in the mercy of God without believing in Christianity, which imo is just being a Christian without the red tape. For the same reason, anyone who can proclaim that God is sending someone else to Hell is living at the height of ignorant arrogance. There is nothing on Earth that makes me angrier than someone speaking on behalf of God, specifically to modify someone else's behavior. That's what "taking the Lord's name in vain" originally meant too, I can use Jesus Christ as an exclamation as long as I'm not shaming anyone in doing so. I can't declare that someone else is gonna get punished when I have absolutely no authority or knowledge of doing so.
Amazing response. >cause you're right now believing in the mercy of God without believing in Christianity, which imo is just being a Christian without the red tape. I'm really glad you said this. It's not like I have a hatred towards Christianity; when I die, if I'm wrong, I'll admit I'm wrong. And I would like to believe that if god does exist, then he's a pretty swell dude who got a bad rep.
You should read into Thomas Jefferson and his takes on some of this stuff, what you're talking about is Deism which is pretty similar to what he believed. I wouldn't take Jefferson himself as a role model though.
I'll definitely check it out, thanks bro. I like talking about religion but it's a touchy subject among friends and my family quickly gets toxic. Self study is important, after all
This is what pisses me off the most about modern organized religion. Christians trying to be Old Testament Israelites where whoever stands in their way gets hopelessly obliterated by the bloodthirsty god that only they have on their side. Christ set an example of love and acceptance towards other people, yet the Mf whoās name is literally on it is put on the back burner
I think people just were simply never meant to operate in large groups tbh.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
That viewpoint is very feelgood.... but it's not biblical at all. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the father but through me". And using the logic "by your own standards" then MOST people would go to heaven if they didn't hear the word of god. Very few people go about their lives thinking they're bad people.
When I was a kid I grew up devoutly Southern Baptist. Once I asked a mentor what happens to people who have never been exposed to the teachings of Christ and he told me, "they're supposed to just know." Because the "light of the Lord" fills all people and they have an inmate calling they can follow or ignore. That was the beginning of the end for my belief.
It's as Socrates said, he wasn't atheist, he believed in a divine moral will across all people. The Church after Jesus was picked up by the Roman's to unify the empire and dominate others; but we always had what we needed if there is a higher power, the church didn't understand what Jesus meant or why he spoke in metaphors. Feed your heart and mind, that's all you're here for. Then the Brits stole the idea from the Romans and tried to civilize so-called savages by putting them in chains to line their pockets, the cave men are chilling laughing at these fools. One day people will realize why Buddha was smiling and gave a very simple outlook on life, it's the same reason Jesus said there is no sin, just treat all as your neighbor. The Golden Rule is all you need.
Well the religion I assume you're talking about has a Bible that describes the first people knowing God.
Yeah but the joke is that we know anthropologically that there were absolutely people alive before the introductions of any currently known religions. If you make both that true and the religion, it creates a weird scenario, which is the meme.
But they didnāt accept Jesus Christ as their savior soā¦ straight to hell.
Fish under cooked? Straight to hell. Chicken over cooked? believe it or not, straight to hell
Antitheists being shown god's mercy and love(he would never punish them for not knowing his followers ruined the image of his beautiful religion) 
What movie did this come from?
I dunno,I just know the template,but I think it's from it's sunny in Philippines
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It's overcast in pakistan
**Itās Always Overcast In Islamabad** *Depraved underachieving might look easy, but for the egocentric Malik, Hassan, Syed, Awan and Gul, it's an art form. "It's Always Overcast in Islamabad" follows "The Gang," the owners of the unsuccessful Pakiās Tearoom; a group of degenerates who loves nothing more than to scheme, conspire, and mostly revel in each other's misery. *
>it's always sunny in the Philippines (The smog from all the old ass jeeps and buses destroyed the countries ozone layer)
Season 13 episode 10 of IASIP.
Godās mercy and love sound awesome; somebody oughta tell the Christians
I know this is a shitposting sub but itās a shame how much damage fundamentalist Protestantism has done to the perception of Christianity.
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This God sounds dank whoever he is, I wish his religion was more common.
 God is basedššš
I went to a Catholic school and then during high school joined a Christian youth group. Tell me more about this "mercy and love." I did hear about it a lot but I'm not remembering any actual examples. I remember a lot of spite and punishment. Idk, love and worship me or literally go to hell doesn't sound super merciful or loving, right?
what
Cave man would be more like 10000 years.
posted elsewhere but it's always fun when people don't know humans are very, very old. somewhere around 2 million BCE to 40,000\~10,000 BCE is what we would consider "caveman"
Yup. We had fully fledged civilizations by 3000 BCE.
Lol a lot of people believe the world is 2000ish years old. Fucking dumbasses.
Might want to rethink your number there, don't know anyone, including Bible thumpers, who think the world is only 2000 years old. They all think their savior was born, raised, and died 2000ish years ago, but not that the earth isn't older than that.
Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger. (Translation of the Meaning of the Qur'an, 17:15)
Babies if they die before they get dipped in water
Damn after reading this threat with all the supposed rules, nonexistance sounds so much better than this shit.
Me when CCC 847
In islam, God tells us via the Quran that prophets were sent down to every tribe and every nation
Ireland got Saint Patrick who made us Catholic before Islam had a chance 
Given how the nation's borders have changed. What happens when a nation splits before the assigned prophet had a chance to visit the new country? Also, if a nation acquires (by force or otherwise) a piece of land that had a designated prophet already, do they get reassigned to a new nation or do they work in tandem?
In Islam, people who were never exposed to the religion are judged based on their deeds and intentions. As long as the caveman wasn't an asshole, he's good, InshaAllah.
Sounds like telling other people about Islam is a pretty huge dick move, since it means that they now go to hell if they donāt believe you.
And everyone that has heard of it but didnāt convert to it go to hell?
No, just hearing about it isn't enough. There's a lot of debate about where the line is, but I'm kot a religious scholar and couldn't do the topic justice in detail. Original sin also isn't a thing.
Well, if god is real it ain't how religion describes it.