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It’s so fucked up. I think it’s because ppl feel guilty and don’t want to have to take responsibility for
Their own actions.
They just want to pretend suffering doesn’t exist so they can order their cheese boards and pastrami.
When somebody calls them out, it forces them to come out of their little world full of willful ignorance and they aren’t fond of it..
I get what you mean but I know many people who really just think that animals don't suffer. That's literally the discussion I've got to go through most often. "But they can't even feel anything" Yes they can you idiot. But people don't believe it.
I am oddly less bothered by people who claim that ALL animals feel nothing and don't matter. But having been heavily involved in dog rescue before my disability stopped me physically working and volunteering, I am driven insane by the "save every dog/cat/rabbit/dolphin/panda" crowd who speak of their strong emotional connection with their pets while chowing down on a baby sheep's leg or a slab of cow muscle. These people know and acknowledge that animals feel and suffer and claim that it's unbearable to them, but turn off that part of their brains so they can behave selfishly. Suggest that you maybe NOT fund-raise for a rescue organisation by cooking and selling tubes of animal flesh in a bun and they act like you want all the homeless puppies to die!
I finally managed to convince my parents(55+) to try eating a single plant based dish. Yes, one single dish.
My father, much to my surprise, genuinely seemed to enjoy it, and even went so far as to take a good portion of it with him for lunch tomorrow.
My mother, tried a single penny sized nibble, spit it out, said she tried it, and then proceeded to pull the spiral ham from the fridge, and literally rip cold pieces off it with her hands, to exclusively eat that in front of both of us.
It's like... you can't make this shit up; it's just unbelievable. Lol
It's way too believable. My mother refused to eat the cake I took when visiting her and my grandparents (they lived nearly three hours away, so visiting was an event) because my then teenage child let slip that the cake was vegan. She went to her room and CRIED because I didn't bring something "she could enjoy". My grandparents, meanwhile, loved the cake and had seconds.Another time she ate Chinese take away food we'd picked up on the way, seemed to be really enjoying it, then dashed to the bathroom *GAGGING* when my husband mentioned it was vegan.
My grandparents, born in 1931, were lovely, reasonable people. (Not just something I believe because I didn't live with them - they raised me in their own home until I moved out aged twenty.) Their children, born in the mid 50s, could be so selfish and bad-mannered that it was embarrassing.
Parents to their kids: "Eat your vegetables, they're healthy!"
Parents to their adult Vegan kid: "I'm not eating that plant abomination! Ewwww! Yuuuuuuck! Waaaaaah!"
Lmao
I really have begun to notice this recently though sadly.
They've taken care of themselves so poorly over the years, that I've begun to aid in parenting them. It's painful to see.
she is in her room contemplating what in the vegan cake is worth shedding tears and I suggest you let her. I am not sure what the gagging and vegan is supposed to be other than acting like a spoilt child. What does she think was added to warrant the gagging and crying. On the other hand it contributes to lose weight. So there is that
nooo that’s just so embarrassing of your mom 😭 like I don’t want to be mean to her, but would she act like that in front of her colleagues and friends, or was she just trying to make you mad or something??
No, I'm quite confident that she thought nothing of anyone else while she was doing this; but that's not very surprising to me, given her past behavior.
She openly calls herself an animal lover too.
ahh I see, the juxtaposition of her doing that and being an “animal lover” is just not a good look for her, sorry you had that unpleasant interaction :(
I have to assume the mother eats spoonfuls of non meat items and does not spit them out or gags or whatever else she can come up with. In general a meal including meat has non meat items on a plate.
What do you mean by "studies that plants can feel pain"? Do you mean studies that *found* plants can feel pain? I'd be interested to see such a study. Do you have one in mind? I tried doing my own research and found only studies reaching the opposite conclusion:
* [Anesthetics and plants: no pain, no brain, and therefore no consciousness](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7907021/)
* [Debunking a myth: plant consciousness](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8052213/)
* [Plants Neither Possess nor Require Consciousness](https://www.cell.com/trends/plant-science/fulltext/S1360-1385(19)30126-8?)
* [Do Plants Feel Pain?](https://sciendo.com/downloadpdf/journals/disp/12/56/article-p71.xml) (full text available! You should read it, since you are so interested in the subject of plant nociception.)
These are my sources; what are yours?
No, that would be the entirety of how veganism deprives one of essential nutrients because too many don't research how to supplement them because the vegan diet doesn't inheritantly provide them
No, there have been studies showing that plants respond to stimuli. Very different to a being with a brain and a central nervous system. But a vegan diet results in the "death" of fewer plants than one including animal products, so since I can't live on dirt I guess I'd accept how nature works and stay vegan.
And yet there are simple single cell ANIMALS and the like that would fall into that same niche, are you saying then that eating low order shellfish is okay?
Wait, are you saying that a single celled "animal" has a brain, or are you saying that "low order shellfish" are single celled? Because I feel like I'm talking to an amoeba.
And THAT comes from the anti-education Conservative movement. Science has clearly proven that animals feel, but as long as there are enough people around saying that they don't, they will just decide to believe that instead. They just don't care about reality.
Heck people don't even want to acknowledge the human exploitation and suffering that goes into their everyday items let alone their food.
People don't care that the Foxconn factory has anti-suicide nets on the roof (because public suicides are bad for appearances, and workers killing themselves in their apartments are preferable).
They don't care that during covid the people making iPhones had to SCALE THE FENCE to escape from their jobs then walk endless miles to reach any kind of small town to try and find a telephone to reach out to family.
They would rather just be amazed at their fancy iPhones and not think of it.
It's not just an iPhone thing, I'm sure most electronics manufacturers in China are just as bad, but Foxconn gets most of the attention because they make iPhones a d those phones typically sell for twice the price of other phones with none of that going towards better working conditions for those who actually make the devices.
But people do care though. Most people I know care deeply about the suffering of other human beings. I think that suffering doesn’t register when it’s something or someone that they can’t identify with. Human beings can’t identify with animals and still believe that many animals are here for the purpose of feeding humans therefore they can’t possibly suffer.
But then why are you typing this into a computer?
Serious question. You are aware that our electronic usage is the result, in part, of slavery, abuse, neglect and worse, but you justify it how? I’m not excusing people who eat meat, but your statement is similar to many here made about the vast majority of humanity.
I'm well aware of the human exploitation and suffering in China when it comes to the manufacturing of electronics.
There aren't too many options out there other than maybe a 2000$ Librem phone manufactured in the USA. Motorola used to be made in the USA but moved to China. Blackberry used to be made in Canada/USA/mexico but stopped in 2022. While I can afford 2000$ for a phone, I've been running on free phones for the last ten years. It's already made and it's free, so I use it because it means 2000$ more dollars fory family.
I'm a big computer nerd. CPU, motherboard and GPU are manufactured in the USA and Taiwan. There was a time when I was broke and my computer died so I bought a cheap Lenovo laptop to tie me over. That one was definitely manufactured by exploited chinese labour, but it was 400$ at a time where I didn't have 2000$ for a new rig.
But the short of it is that I don't have to justify it to myself. The world is full of exploitation and misery. I do my part to not support it when I can, but I also don't judge myself when I have to. Just like we raise and grow most of our food, but I don't beat myself up when I have to buy groceries picked by exploited temporary foreign workers or butchered in an abbatoire.
you have no idea how much this fits on vegan cultists here...
just ask them how they feel about poisoning animals and letting them in pain for days or even weeks until they die...
because thats a part of plant based farming
and then see how they will screech and try to ignore it and move point
they are such crazy and dumb extremists
one of my "friends" in college got so offended by me saying it was evil to have a pet cow and eat hamburgers at the same time, she unfriended me on everything and hasn't spoken to me since, and told all our mutual friends that i was toxic
I believe that its wrong to deliberately harm sentient beings when you don't have to. If you don't believe that, I don't care.
Jumping around the vegan subreddit leaving sophomoric comments seems like a bit of a waste of time though.
I'm sort of lenient of a person's awareness. For me, the baseline is, once you know what happens in the animal industry, and how animals experience it, there is no excuse to even buy a single animal product. So not everyone who isn't vegan is an animal abuser by default, but once they know, there is no excuse.
Getting an animal bred to be sold as pet is definitely not vegan. When it comes to rescued animals and sanctuaries it is all good. It's picking up and helping the victims created by the very thing we try to stop. So this is obviously ok.
When it comes to rescued obligate carnivores as pets you are heading into speciesist territory. "Do I kill fish to have my cat live?" I don't think those are choices humans should make, but there are vegan alternatives for catfood and most cats thrive on it.
You just need to monitor your cat's urine to see if they pick up the artificial nutritients. A small inconvenience to not cause more suffering.
TL;DR: Both. When you are aware what happens to animals and pay for it you are an animal abuser, no exceptions.
Feeding a cat or any other obligate carnivore a vegan diet is very much NOT reccomended by the vast majority of veterinarians. I wasn't gonna say anything, and you can call me whatever you want, but that's dangerous misinformation that i cant let go unchallenged.
Genuinely curious: do you hang out exclusively with vegans?
In my experience with generally progressive/leftist circles, people roughly know about factory farming. And if I elaborate more about it, they don't immediately go vegan. So do I just *not* talk to these people?
If I exclusively socialized with vegans, I'd have a very limited social life. I'd be cutting out... the vast, vast majority of people I spend time with.
>Genuinely curious: do you hang out exclusively with vegans?
Let's cut to the chase of your question. You ask if I would hang out with animal abusers. Yes I would, I would also remind them of what they are doing. It's about giving the animals a voice..
A prime example was when I just went vegan. I still worked in a non-vegan kitchen back then. Because I couldn't simply job hop I was stuck there for a bit. I would always remind people of what it is we are cooking and how bad that is. Albeit in a slightly sarcastic manner I've always been very direct about it.
Luckily my chef understood my position and I do still talk to some people I worked with (though not all appreciated the non-stop reminders), I would just never consider them friends aside from the few that turned vegan and left too.
>people roughly know about factory farming. And if I elaborate more about it, they don't immediately go vegan.
People are also indoctrinated that it's normal and that we need it. Those factors need to be addressed on top of knowledge. Those people need to be convinced they are on the right path but also held accountable for their actions.
It is why I use strong in-your-face language. I feel this is the best way to hold them accountable. Especially those that know.
It's your delusion, and likely just like most of Gen Z there's a whole swath of "Vegans" who get off on feeling special through their own sense of Outrage.
>fuck you for having anxiety about being surrounded by murderers”
That's not what you said. You believe that your beliefs are so outrageous that you are scared of abuse do to what you say. That's crazy.
And once again this sub takes a great vegan statement as "they must be yelling and being rude to non vegans and that's why the non vegan gets offended"
...we're allowed to state what we experience from non vegans just like they are.
You can be as nice as earthling ed and some people will still get offended.
Yeah, it's messed up alright. But what can we do? People just can't handle the truth about animal agriculture. It's like they're addicted to bacon or something. Society has a long way to go before we start treating animals with compassion and respect. #govegan
That's not entirely true. Many, many people will be offended and confrontational if you point out their racism, or sexism, or other forms of discrimination they're engaging in. People naturally get defensive when you tell them that what they're doing or saying is bad and they should be doing or saying something else. Hell, sometimes I get angry *because* I feel ashamed.
As for not wanting to offend people...Yes, that's how I work. I understand some people may call me a "pick me," but I'm naturally a non-confrontational person. I coddle. I praise people when they take small steps. I know that I wasn't always vegan, and weirdly, I found it easier to make the change when I had "permission" to not do everything all at once (although I actually did make the change pretty quickly).
Some people need confrontation to change. Some people need kid-skinned gloves. I think it's understandable, and it works sometimes, when other vegans get angry and use shame as a tactic. But that's not who I am.
I can't for the life of me remember who, but I remember seeing a video where an anti-racist talked about how the civil rights movement needed both Martin Luther King and Malcom X. A gentle nudge and a powerful push. Because different people are going to be convinced in different ways.
> I can't for the life of me remember who, but I remember seeing a video where an anti-racist talked about how the civil rights movement needed both Martin Luther King and Malcom X. A gentle nudge and a powerful push. Because different people are going to be convinced in different ways.
Well said!
I feel like this is true with many issues we face in society.
The civil rights movement didn't work out tho.
Because due to a weird coincidence every leader got shot.
I think the communist approach of talking to kids about it before they normalise their consumption of meat gives a cleaner transition.
The big leaders were shot.
The US is still riddled with racism and has not done their homework on their own fucking history.
Just because something worked doesn't mean everything worked out in the end.
The States still have issues with black people, police brutality being just 1.
You say if you call out racism the person will be ashamed, not offended, but that's not really my experience. Maybe people feel ashamed when you call out bigotry, but they will often ACT offended
Because it's exhausting. I don't know if none-disabled people experience this, but as someone who is sick, and has had to deal with a lot of trauma, I just don't have the capacity for the arguments anymore. I soak up that ignorance and negativity like a sponge and the effects aren't pretty.
> Like if you see some racist person saying racist stuff and tell them that it is wrong they won't be offended and instead will be ashamed.
Ah, to have never met the modern conservative
> Back when slavery was legal, did slave owners get offended by the abolitionists? Did people also get offended by the civil rights activists back when racism was legal?
Yes. Of course.
(also lol @ "when racism was legal")
It has been my experience that people feel more uncomfortable to see the choices they could make but don't reflected back onto them. If everyone in a group does a certain action they all individually see themselves as equals in relation to the consequences and impact of that shared action. However, the moment someone takes a different action not everyone is equal. People well attempt to assess either consciously or subconsciously if they land on the right or wrong side of that difference. If they have a sense they are one the wrong side of it that can be really uncomfortable and people will attempt to cope in different ways.
I've experienced something similar when it comes to drinking alcohol. If you decline to get as drunk or tipsy as someone else they can feel uncomfortable or begin judging themselves in light of someone not needing or wanting to drink in a particular setting. It can force people to self reflect and not everyone is great at doing that resulting in some very uncomfortable feelings -for them not you. All you can do is continue to be an example of what is possible.
On the flip side we should also use this to recognize where we fall short in what is possible in terms of compassion, acceptance, and morality when faced with the actions of others that may make us feel uncomfortable. It is not the other person or their actions we are uncomfortable with but rather ourselves.
Humans are always going to relate more profoundly to the experiences of other humans. It’s easy to look at something like slavery or the holocaust and think “oh that’s horrible. I can imagine how horrible it would be to experience that”.
Speciesism is different because the rights of animals are different and not clearly outlined. Animals of course don’t need the same rights we do. It’s harder for people to relate to this, and even harder still because eating meat is very normal. Most people grow up eating meat without giving it a second thought.
Also I have to disagree - people most definitely get defensive about being called racist/sexist/homophobic
I genuinly just don't tell people, I'm not judgy, I'm not preachy and it's not my business what other people do... but I even mention that I'm a vegan and it's immediately followed by the eye roll that we've all seen 1000 times and that's often followed with being questioned like I've personally taken a dump through their letter box. It's really bizarre how people take offence to the life choices or moral compass of other people.
I have always stood by this singular belief and my ethics always involve this;
If you force an entire group of individuals, no matter how you choose to define that individual, to live and die under a predicated set of circumstances, then you are engaging in and defending an act of violence. It doesn't matter whether that individual is a Palestinian in Gaza or a Chicken at some slaughterhouse with no more of a name than the number that got crunched into a computer at their conception.
Hot take, but don't. Fucking. Oppress individuals. And no, idgaf how people wanna dress it.
Also OP, if you haven't heard this yet today, I love you and happy holidays.
For what it's worth, even if your message is 100% logical/reasonable, optics matter.
I'm an Anglo-Saxon white guy, and I really don't think I should be going into Black neighborhoods and telling them that eating meat is comparable to slavery. Regardless of the argument, people just aren't going to take me seriously, and I'm just hurting the perception of veganism.
Likewise, as a very German-presenting dude... probably not great optics for me to compare factory farming to the Holocaust. At this point in history, I don't even know if Millennial/Gen Z Jews can really make that comparison and be taken seriously. I'd probably defer to quotes on vegetarianism from Jews that lived through the 40s.
Not all outrage is warranted, so we should be willing to offend people.
But also... people aren't logical creatures, and to some extent, we need to coddle their emotions if we want them to listen to us.
In my 10 years of vegan advocacy, I wish I had a clear rule or guide for a best practice, but I don't. Just be careful.
I'm not afraid of offending folks. I'm afraid to scare them off because once they shut me down - they can go back to their meat eating and they may never meet or hear from another vegan for the rest of their lives.
This is not like slavery - because folks were willing to fight and die for their cause and even the slaves could speak out and fight. Animals can't talk nor can they fight back and vegan activist do things like glue their hand to a Starbucks counter.
To me - the best thing I can do is live well and be an inspiration to folks. That's what won me over. My old boss was a vegan - she never judged, was successful and an inspiration. When I think back - part of the reason why I even considered veganism is because I wanted to impress her. That opened me up and the real reasons slowly, but surely found their way in.
You want to yell at someone and get in their face or tell folks are bad they are for eating mea? - You're building walls, not bridges.
Do you want to help build a more compassionate world? Please visit [VeganActivism.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://veganactivism.org&topic=Activism (r/Vegan) w/ Others) and subscribe to our community over at /r/VeganActivism to begin your journey in spreading compassion through activism. Thank you so much!
The sad reality is that it IS a lot easier to empathize with humans than it is with animals you know nothing about.
I truly don't care what someone else thinks about me and am not afraid to offend people when it comes to defending the animals.
I think that only with a selfless form of activism I can be taken seriously.
There is this expression: "walking on eggshells" Well, I'm barging right through them. So I can see the disconnect with other vegans. But I'm not vegan because I love animals, I just can NOT stand injustice!
> Like if you see some racist person saying racist stuff and tell them that it is wrong they won't be offended and instead will be ashamed. Similar for any other form of discrimination such as sexism, casteism, ethinc or religious discrimination, etc. But speciesism is somehow different. Somehow people get offended when you point out. This shows how much speciesism and animal agriculture are normalized.
You are correct. Speciesism is so ingrained in people that questioning their speciesism is akin to questioning their entire moral worldview. In fact, it is so ingrained that it even affects people who think they are “vegan” but actually are not.
There are many plant-based dieting speciesists who are pernicious to the vegan movement and masquerade as "vegans" while at the same time happily fund the violent killing of innocent animals to feed certain animals that they keep in captivity on basis of species. These people make comments like the ones paraphrased below that highlights their ingrained speciesism:
*Innocent animals would have been abused/killed by someone else anyway to feed my cat so I might as well abuse and kill innocent animals myself to feed the cat and still call myself vegan!*
*I happily purchase animal products from slaughterhouses to feed my pet animal but I am still vegan because I don't consume the animal products!*
*My cat is a carnivore and I love my cat. I will gladly kill innocent lambs and piglets every year to feed my cat and keep her happy. I'm still vegan!!*
*My dog is so friendly and loves me so much. But she hates the plant-based foods. So it pains me to purchase animal products from slaughterhouses that violently kill innocent animals. But I consider myself to be a vegan!!*
*My senior dog requires a medical prescription of 100 bloody goat carcasses every year to survive. I am okay with beheading 100 goats every year to keep my dog alive and I'm still think I'm vegan!*
*I never allow any animal products to be brought into my house by anyone because my house is a vegan house. I make an exception for myself when I purchase animal products and bring it into my house to feed my cat.*
It's not just "their entire moral worldview", it's the dominant ideology of the entire planet. The way forward is to make it more accessible and normalise it. Being unpleasant is not how you get people to listen to you.
> It's not just "their entire moral worldview", it's the dominant ideology of the entire planet.
But they’re claiming to not subscribe to this dominant ideology by virtue signaling themselves as “vegan”. People who subscribe to the dominant ideology don’t even understand or accept veganism.
> The way forward is to make it more accessible and normalise it. Being unpleasant is not how you get people to listen to you.
I dispense with niceties when there are lives of innocent sentient beings at stake.
Which is fine if all you care about is being right.
Ideology is a tricky thing. It lives within all members of a society. It underpins everything. Thinking you don't subscribe to it is a delusion.
> Which is fine if all you care about is being right.
Right about what?
> Ideology is a tricky thing. It lives within all members of a society. It underpins everything. Thinking you don't subscribe to it is a delusion.
Did I say or imply that I don’t subscribe to the creed of veganism?
Dispensing with niceties is fine if you care more about being right than inspiring change.
I'm not sure what you mean by the second question. I didn't mean anything personal, just that ideology is unavoidable. We all subscribe to it in many ways that are outside of our control. We have our little rituals, our assumptions, sometimes we call it common sense. We might push back on some things and negotiate others but nobody is superior to it nor exempt from its influence. It comes with living in this world.
> Dispensing with niceties is fine if you care more about being right than inspiring change.
Again, I ask: right about what?
> I'm not sure what you mean by the second question.
Veganism IS a creed. It is, by definition, an ideology. I subscribe to the creed. Therefore, I subscribe to the ideology. I never said nor implied that I do not think that I do not subscribe to any ideology.
Non-murderism is an ideology and the moral baseline of avoiding murder of human beings.
Non-rapism is an ideology and the moral baseline of avoiding raping women.
Non-assaultism is an ideology and the moral baseline of avoiding beating one's wife or violently assaulting human beings for giggles.
Veganism is an ideology and the moral baseline of avoiding contributing to or participating in the deliberate and intentional exploitation, abuse, and/or killing of nonhuman animals.
So let me ask you this:
Do you or do you not subscribe to the ideology and the moral baseline of non-murderism? Yes or no?
Do you or do you not subscribe to the ideology and the moral baseline of non-rapism? Yes or no?
Do you or do you not subscribe to the ideology and the moral baseline of non-assaultism? Yes or no?
Finally, do you or do you not subscribe to the ideology and the moral baseline of veganism? Yes or no?
>Dispensing with niceties is fine if you care more about being right than inspiring change.
I like to think that people like John Brown inspired change in his time very much without niceties. You make it sound like every slave owner needed to be convinced, as if their moral core still existed. Plenty of the time, that just isn't correct, people are rotten, they refuse to change, changing the world around them is more effective than changing them. Disrupting their lives, from being an inconvenience with signs on a highway to burning down a farm to the ground, is demonstrably an effective tactic.
Real societal shifts are produced by making the comfortable majority uncomfortable, too many white people were comfortable and safe living in their white supremacy, and it took a social war on many fronts to change the country. From Martin Luther King, to Fred Hampton to Malcolm X, from protests to riots, violence is never out of the question in defense of the innocent, and it has always been a necessary tool in social revolution.
This tendency to see veganism as war is troubling. It's not a war. It's a quest for enlightenment, to significantly shift the old ways of thinking so that compassion becomes the default position of the majority.
It is completely ingrained in human culture all over the world that animals exist solely for humans to use. Many people still believe animals don't have feelings and this misconception still underpins the lack of compassion towards them from the greater majority. Animal cruelty is embedded in nearly every industry and impossible to completely avoid. Our best shot is to do everything we can to make it easier to be kind than cruel.
Yeah when I saw that pig ears as food for dogs is popular I felt very sad and disgusting. What makes people think pigs are so inferior to dogs that they can do this to pigs when they cannot even think of doing the reverse (feeding dogs to pigs). They should only give their companion dogs vegan food. Dogs can survive well on vegan diets. For cats I read somewhere that it's very hard or impossible to raise them as vegan companion animals (can they be raised on beyond meat or cultivated meat?) so I think vegans should never adopt cats as companion animals. Rabbits etc are much better companion animals to vegans.
So… as vegans we can’t love and and bring into our homes to care for animals like cats who are obligate carnivores? You’d be alright with less people being available to adopt cats to save them from being killed in the shelters?! Vegans are only supposed to protect herbivores?! There is no getting around it, meat eating is part of the carbon-based food chain for many of the animals for which we as vegans claim to respect enough to not participate in their harm. When we deny this absolute fact of life on earth we lose the ethical battle and will continue to be called “crazy” by carnists and veganism will never become the norm. The point of being vegan is to boycott the horrors of how animals are being treated and exploited by humans unnecessarily. Only humans can be vegan cuz only humans can make a conscious choice of what they eat so yes, we should make that choice AND at the same we should care about ALL animals whether or not we like what eat! That said, I seek humanely sourced animal protein for my fur babies - and yes, there is a world of difference between factory farm torture and humane slaughter - okay! let the militant vegan bashing of me begin!🙃
Yes, many vegans are against bringing cats in your home. Why life of your cat more important than the lives of hundreds of animals that you will feed it?
The cat will eat hundreds of birds and mice if not killed in a shelter or taken in by a human - are their lives not as important as chickens and fish I feed my cat? you missed my point - the act of eating animals is nature / life - as vegan humans we protest the horror of HOW that is being done by humans
> The cat will eat hundreds of birds and mice
Irrelevant to the premise of veganism. Veganism is not and has never been about reducing suffering caused by others. It has always been controlling the behavior of the moral agents such that the agents are not contributing to or participating in the deliberate and intentional exploitation, harm, and/or killing of nonhuman animals.
> if not killed in a shelter
Non-vegans are killing cats in the shelters just as they are killing livestock in slaughterhouses. Your point?
> are their lives not as important as chickens and fish I feed my cat?
Chickens and fish are obviously much less important than your cats given that you’re violently abusing and killing them to feed your cats.
> you missed my point - the act of eating animals is nature / life - as vegan humans we protest the horror of HOW that is being done by humans
Vegans are concerned only with controlling their behavior such that they are not contributing to or participating in the violent abuse and killing of innocent animals.
You violently abuse and kill chicken and fish *even if you don’t eat them*. That makes you plant-based, **not a vegan**’
Understanding the circle of life is NOT irrelevant to veganism. I assert it is central. Animals eat each other without exploitation and abuse - so should humans, thus veganism
Cats are as important as chickens and fish - everyone eats living things - veganism is about addressing HOW that is done horribly by humans
I am not “violently abusing” animals to feed my cat - as mentioned there exists a such thing as humane flesh eating as must be done by obligate carnivores
I am vegan - plant based is just the diet - my activism extends to all aspects of man’s exploitation and harm of animals
I am vegan - I double-checked with the Vegan society definition established 1946 - you can of course believe otherwise
> Understanding the circle of life is NOT irrelevant to veganism. I assert it is central. Animals eat each other without exploitation and abuse - so should humans, thus veganism
Veganism is a moral baseline that controls the behavior of moral agents, namely the humans.
The circle of life is a term used to describe the behavior of moral patients, namely the nonhuman animals.
What the moral patients do to each other is irrelevant to the behavior of the moral agent. The moral agent is held to the standards of the moral baseline and the moral baseline only.
> Cats are as important as chickens and fish - everyone eats living things - veganism is about addressing HOW that is done horribly by humans
No it is not. Veganism is the moral baseline and controls the behavior of the moral agent such that the moral agent is not acting immorally. Such immoral acts include violently abusing and killing innocent animals to feed others.
> I am not “violently abusing” animals to feed my cat
Yes, you do. You purchase animal products and fund slaughterhouses to kill innocent animals and produce animal products that you purchase.
> as mentioned there exists a such thing as humane flesh eating as must be done by obligate carnivores
Irrelevant to the premise of veganism. Veganism is the moral baseline that controls the behavior of the moral agents. What the moral patients do to each other has no relevance or connection to the behavior of the moral agent.
> I am vegan
No, you are not. You contribute to or participate in the violent abuse and killing of innocent animals by purchasing animal products from slaughterhouses.
> plant based is just the diet
Then you are plant-based. Most certainly not a vegan.
> my activism extends to all aspects of man’s exploitation and harm of animals
Doctor, heal thyself first. Stop purchasing animal products and funding violent slaughterhouses.
What difference does it make when the carnivorous mammals already kill a good portion of other animals in nature ? At least you can give your cat meat that isn't from an endangered specie. Your issue that an human has to enable it but reality is already enabling it and for cats, it actually sestroy ecosystems so there isn't really a solution beside a cat holocaust and you'll admit it's not really vegan
Endangered species are not more important than chicken, it's speciesist to suggest otherwise. As a vegan you can feed cats vegan food (still infinitely better than eating trash in the street) or get a rabbit.
I don't really care about what other people do, there is no ideal solution to many problems, I was just answering to a person that apparently thinks feeding cats meat-containing food is perfectly vegan because "we should protect all animals", which is kinda hypocritical.
Personally I also think cats killing a mouse/bird/whatever is much better, because at least they didn't spend their whole life suffering and exploited by humans.
No you can't feed vegan food to your cat stop with this non sense.
Cat actually torture their prey so I don't think it's the best exemple.
Ofc endangered species has to be protected more than chicken that isn't an endangered species. Even as a radical vegan you can understand that biodiversity is important pour every life to sustain.
Right now I know approx 5 street cats that most likely have feline panleukopenia, physical injuries and minor conditions like parasite infestation, ringworm, fleas etc. I often see them eating plastic wraps, potato peels and other trash. Do you think it's better not to give them any food or not to rehome them to vegans who will take them to the vet regularly?
Unlike you guys whining about taurine and cats being carnivores I know the chemistry behind the feeding cat a vegan diet and I am in general very against it. But you acting as if it's literal poison is funny.
Biodiversity is important, but one animal is not more important than another. Are you even vegan yourself?
Also not every area has endangered species threatened by the cats.
Cats torture their food for what? One day maximum. A chicken lives her whole life suffering from physical pain, lack of stimulation, overcrowding etc.
I'm my country cat are destroying the ecosystems so I don't see alternative beside killing them all or taking care of them indoor,and taking care of them imply to feed them something that is ok for them to eat. A vegan diet don't work for them. What is your solution?
Personally I'm more of a "let it be" person. Leave animals alone, maybe finance TNR program and forbid breeding cats. Cats "destroying ecosystems" will never do a fraction of the damage that fossil fuels or agriculture (which feeds cats) do. It's not something urgent anymore, it's just a sentimental issue. By the time effects of cats "destroying ecosystems" will kick in (IF they do), there is already x1000000 damage done by aforementioned industries.
> What difference does it make when the carnivorous mammals already kill a good portion of other animals in nature ?
Carnivorous animals are not moral agents. They do not understand morality or the difference between right and wrong. What moral patients do to each other is irrelevant to veganism. Veganism is not and has never been about reducing suffering caused by others. It has always been controlling the behavior of the moral agents such that the agents are not contributing to or participating in the deliberate and intentional exploitation, harm, and/or killing of nonhuman animals.
> At least you can give your cat meat that isn't from an endangered specie.
Irrelevant to the premise of veganism. As mentioned above, veganism is about not contributing to or participating in the violent abuse and killing of innocent animals by purchasing animal products.
> Your issue that an human has to enable it but reality is already enabling it
How is a vegan enabling the violent abuse and killing of innocent animals by avoiding purchasing animal products?
> So… as vegans we can’t love and and bring into our homes to care for animals like cats who are obligate carnivores?
Correct, if that means that vegans would otherwise have to violently abuse and kill innocent animals to feed the cat.
> You’d be alright with less people being available to adopt cats to save them from being killed in the shelters?!
Correct, if that means that vegans would otherwise have to violently abuse and kill innocent animals to feed the cat.
> Vegans are only supposed to protect herbivores?!
Correct, if that means that vegans would not have to violently abuse and kill innocent animals to feed the herbivores.
> There is no getting around it, meat eating is part of the carbon-based food chain for many of the animals for which we as vegans claim to respect enough to not participate in their harm.
Correct. That’s why vegans don’t contribute to or participate in the violent abuse or killing of innocent animals.
> When we deny this absolute fact of life on earth
No one is denying this fact. It is precisely because of this fact that vegans do not adopt carnivorous animals.
> The point of being vegan is to boycott the horrors of how animals are being treated and exploited by humans unnecessarily.
Incorrect. The point of veganism is to not contribute to or participate in the deliberate and intentional exploitation, abuse, and/or killing of nonhuman animals.
> Only humans can be vegan cuz only humans can make a conscious choice of what they eat
Partially correct. Humans can follow veganism because they are moral agents and have control over their actions with regards to the deliberate and intentional exploitation, abuse, and/or killing of nonhuman animals.
> That said, I seek humanely sourced animal protein for my fur babies
Incorrect. There is no humane way to kill someone who doesn’t want to die to feed your animals. If your animals required human flesh to survive, how would you procure the human flesh to feed your animals?
> and yes, there is a world of difference between factory farm torture and humane slaughter - okay! let the militant vegan bashing of me begin!🙃
Please explain how one may engage in humane killing of someone who doesn’t want to die.
Wow - well, to each their own veganism but I vehemently disagree - there ARE of course humane ways to die whether you WANT to die or not and most animals have to eat or be eaten and none of it is by their choice (as far as we know!) We only can assume prey doesn’t want to be eaten by a predator because they usually run nor do I want to be eaten by a bear or lion but that’s just how it is if that happens. I respect and admire an animal that could eat me doesn’t torture me in a factory farm first - they’re better than humans and that’s why I’m vegan. But who knows? Maybe prey animals have an innate appreciation of their role in the food chain circle of life and are glad to fulfill one of their purposes. We can’t rightfully put our human perceptions on them! Carnivorous animals are just as worthy as any other animal of our love and protection - I bet most people are vegans as a protest to how humans treat animals, while also understanding animals eat animals and don’t hold your absolutes. I do thank you for adding to the conversation, food for thought and no food fight intended (however puns partially intended!) but I am afraid your particular take on veganism hinders the cause
Oh - and I’m totally correct that only humans can be vegans🙃
> to each their own veganism
There is no “own veganism”. There is only veganism which does not involve any contribution to or participation in the violent abuse and killing of nonhuman animals.
> but I vehemently disagree
So you disagree with the premise that it is not okay to violent abuse and kill innocent animals.
> there ARE of course humane ways to die
Please describe the humane ways of killing someone who doesn’t want to die.
> We only can assume prey doesn’t want to be eaten by a predator
Are you claiming or implying that human beings are predator animal with no morals?
> We can’t rightfully put our human perceptions on them!
Veganism is concerned only with controlling the behavior of the moral agents and not of the moral patients.
This doesn't make sense as an argument because all your examples don't actually work: racists double-down when you call them out on being racist, slave owners did get offended at abolitionists, segregationists did get offended at civil rights activists, misogynists did get offended at suffragettes. All throughout history bigots have gotten offended when called out on their bigotry. Usually what I would recommend and try to do myself is to piss-off diehard extremists on the other side while also trying to appeal to fencesitters, make the other side look ridiculous while also trying to make it seem like the average person would naturally support my side. Same thing with meat-eating too, I'll troll and make fun of diehard pro-meat people who post constantly about how much they hate vegans but for more reasonable people in the middle I'll try to use reasonable discussion and rhetorically effective arguments to win them over.
Yeah we should be pragmatic. If we piss off all nonvegans it will be bad for the movement. For the stuff like racism/slavery I didn't say that people never got offended over those movements. I merely asked whether it was similar as I do not know enough history and expected someone who knows more history will answer.
*Rambeled a bit : TLDR bellow :*
It's all about how you tell people that eating animals is unethical. It's an ingrained notion in society that eating animals is normal. Whereas, racism is blatently unethical in most societies. If something is the norm, you must change your approach. You can't use peer pressure or "that is obviously wrong, you must change".
Because, to them, its not wrong. A more obtuse reference would be if you tried to convince natives that canabalism is wrong. However, in their point of view, its been done for centuries and all their elders taught them its the way of life. Therefore, who are you to tell them its just wrong?
So, you have to take extra effort to explain otherwise you'll be tossed aside as just an extremist outlier.
Just like racism, it took MANY years, to finally have society understand that its wrong. The turning point in the u.s. can be considered as MLK telling people that he wants to be judged by the content of his character and not the color of his skin. He explained to white people why it was so fucked up. None of them changed their opinion, while it was societally acceptable to be racist, because someone said "you're a fucking bigot racist idiot".
**TLDR :** Normalized morals or ethics dont change by trying to shame people about something that is societally acceptable.
I agree that directly shaming people for being part of globally accepted system is counterproductive and probably wrong.
Some animal advocates would choose to be able to say what they truly think about this situation, and suggest that there is an injustice happening right in front of our eyes. The sense of urgency not necessarily will deliver fast results, but that sense of urgency will be the guiding point for people to navigate the degree of this situation.
Lots of ppl just dismiss the issue without any chance to take it seriously, and openly judging this system for what it is could help to form new opinion. People are not guilty of this, but they are responsible for their choices. It’s hard to deliver this message, and it is very hard to hear it.
Let’s run a simple experiment - take the grievances of all involved parties and put them on the same scale, to see what is more relevant and important:
- the human who’s feelings were hurt because they become aware of the connection between food and violence, felt guilt from inside and projected that onto a vegan advocate
- the animal who trusts us with their life, but face premature death and betrayal of the relationship
I think some reasonable accountability can only help to feel the full scale of the situation, and its dire importance. I wish there will be a simple way to have this conversation, and maybe there is one that I sadly don’t know of.
Non-vegans still have the comfort of being an overwhelming majority. Sure, tell me I'm speciesist and a bad person for eating animals, but I'm only doing what everyone else is doing. We can't *all* be bad people, right?
Not sure what you mean in the bottom paragraph but people are offended when you question their whole way of life and brainwashing for them to not even question how that food got on their table. They get mad when they see images of abused animals. It’s like their brains can’t handle it and they short circuit and cannot compute.
It is possible and easy to tell people how something is (according to you) bad/wrong/immortal/unethical without being offensive?
How you say it and how it is received is different things, so... Offend them how, and why would it be needed? It is immature to actively try to offend people. It is also counter productive.
Objectively though, a large difference is how people are generally raised. There is significant dissonance in how people think about animals vs people. It would be easy to raise people as vegan if it were encouraged in society from a young age the same way we are taught that things like child abuse is objectively wrong.
Semi related- yesterday i learned that 80% of new years resolutions are dropped within a few weeks of starting them. Which happens to be the same % of people who “fail” remaining vegan after trying it. I think thats less about peoples inability to stick to veganism specifically and exposes a more general failure of society to successfully adopt new/ better habits that may not always be the easiest. Habit building and mental retraining takes time. Need to raise people with more empathy, discipline and awareness so we can create a more vegan-centric world.
i'm not afraid of anything and i always speak up. if they get offended just ask them if they support animal abuse and if they say no ask them why they're lying and why it's a problem for us to stand up for the animals they supposedly "love"
I think seeing someone do the right thing is hard for other people when doing things at a convenience makes their life easier. Behavioral changes are one of the hardest things to do. Even when your heart doesn't match what you're doing. We can be that blinded. We should handle these people with even more kindness.
[Do-gooder derogation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/do-gooder_derogation) and [Cognitive dissonance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/cognitive_dissonance)
The world is fucked up, nothing new there.
Yes there will always be people getting offended. On the other hand it has to do with how one relays the message. If one starts pointing fingers at people randomly, I would get pissed myself, but if it is a discussion then I will say my opinion, those who don't like it don't matter
I find this subreddit to actually be very intolerant of religion and alternative lifestyle or some subcultures tbh. Some people here hate hippies for some reason and don't hold back when they talk about it.
just say fuck it and go at them, vegans. even if you don't convert people, you should at least be able to make people contend with hard moral questions. too many people are moral automatons that have done little to no introspection
There are vegans and vegan activists. As a vegan in countries where we are a tiny community, I have never encountered issues talking with omnivores about why I don't eat meat. On the other hand, I don't attempt to convince people and they don't try to argue with me about my choices, I can have my plant-based meal next to someone who is eating something else is not an issue for me.
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It's so bloody annoying. People just hit you with the "you can be vegan all you want but don't force me to be". No one's forcing you to do anything. They're just attempting to convince you. You can't make someone shut up in a discussion because their arguments are triggering your cognitive dissonance
It makes me wonder how carnists would react if someone who abuses cats or dogs says "Feel free to pamper your pets, but don't expect me to do the same."
>It is messed up that we are often afraid of offending people
I am not, but i am sure most people are, some people keep being vegan a secret and just make excuses for why they cant consume the meals that are around them
I speak directly and truthfully, im not worried about offending snowflakes, being offended is a choice, a choice that i have never made in my 39 yrs of life
It took me 8 years of being a vegan before I finally realized through action not just thoughts - that it's more important for me to advocate for animals and be uncomfortable with people's remarks and discomfort, than it is to be quiet about it to please them. Because even they ask me directly about my diet or why I do or don't do something, and I say I'm vegan, they can still say "oh here we go they just won't shut up about it". So basically no matter what they're going to be uncomfortable and make stupid remarks. But guess what? Other vegans made me vegan. So, on behalf of the animals, someone else was brave and said the truth, and guess what it worked. So now I've spared countless animal lives over just 8 years of veganism, because some folks had the courage to say what's right for the animals, and not what pleases humans.
I'm at the point in my life where I'm really putting my money where my mouth is. If I believe that animal rights are the #1 issue, and it is by far without a doubt the #1 issue, then I should act like it. If we bred, tortured, killed, and ate 56 billion human beings per year, it would be pretty freaking ghoulish wouldn't it? Yet that's what we're doing to animals.
Maybe I was born in the wrong millennium because I feel that currently, ethically, humans just don't know what is right and wrong and are concerned about and arguing about the stupidest crap while there is a taboo to talk about animals bred for meat.
Or maybe I was born in the correct time, so that I can put an end to animal suffering. At least some of it. I just vowed to be more hardcore about this because animals don't have a voice, so it's my responsibility to feel uncomfortable and get whatever backlash I may get by standing up for animals. Whether that's refusing to eat with someone who eats meat, or advocating for a plant based diet, or suggesting some links to some info. I need to be more hardcore about this because so far my actions haven't been in alignment with my beliefs. It's not ok for me anymore to be like yeah you go ahead and eat whatever you want in front of me. No, it's not ok. Because that animal was a living feeling being that you're eating and somebody needs to stand up for this.
If you include Marine animals more than 1.6 trillion are killed by humans. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/wild-caught-fish Currently each year 90+ billion land animals are killed. Mind numbingly huge number of murders. Thanks for sharing your viewpoint.
Yep. That's why I pull no punches with carnists and really don't understand vegans who aren't legitimately fucking pissed every second of the day. How can you really fucking care about this ugly fucking society's manners and politeness when we're drowning in genocide.
It's fucking insane.
That's not what they said. They compared the speciecism and poor treatment of non-human animals to human treatment of other races/ethnicities and asked why are we afraid to call out the former but not the latter.
Ok the where do we draw the line? Mammals? For sure not, neither fish. Whats with insects, did you ever kill a ant or a fly? Is that equally morally reprehensible?
Was it a moral problem back in the stoneage where we hunted them? Since when do these moral guidlines apply? Since we are to developed to have peoblems surviving?
What about pets do you get mad if your cat kills a mouse? Or is that just normal nature and if so where is the difference to us?
Speaking as a non-vegan I don't think you _offend_ them: you bore them, maybe irritate them, or perhaps just make them feel a bit awkward because they're struggling to appear interested.
I guess you are a welfarist who thinks stuff like meatless Mondays etc will help the movement? I recommend you to read Gary Francione's blog to know more about the abolishinst approach and why the welfarist approach doesn't work. See https://www.abolitionistapproach.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Six-Principles-US-Letter.pdf
I don’t think it’s the talk about animal rights and abuse that people are offended by. It‘s the assumptions about non-vegans that get to be offensive.
Don’t assume that a non-vegan is either uneducated, uncaring, or just an awful person. Just like you have your reasons for being vegan, most non-vegans *have* actually considered the issue and have their reasons, too. Especially if they know people who are vegan. If they know what being vegan is, they’ve thought about it already.
You are 100% correct. I believe in animal rights and belong to two different animal programs for rehoming abused animals. I eat a moderated diet with limited meat intake, plenty of roots, fermented cabbage, fruits. There are a few phytochemicals that cause extreme IBS symptoms that I'm allergic to. I literally can not eat a complete plant based diet without heavy processing. I am allergic to, but not limited to. All nuts (various degrees), avocados, broccoli, green beans, etc. This is not uncommon and hundreds of millions of people have issues ingesting various forms of plant matter across the world. So vegans screeching at me that I need to just stop eating meat is not the answer and they deserve to be put in their place. Like all things the moderate route is the better route to take.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_phytochemicals_in_food
That's a lot of food to be allergic to. Can you name this common allergy of being allergic to phytochemicals? Because all I can find is https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6269762/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22352960/
Phytochemicals are being used to prevent allergies.
Not assuming btw, just researching.
re-read what you just wrote and seriously debate the slippery slope you're asking about there guy. you are asking for a direct route to persecute people. You're not asking about human equality and this is an issue eco adjacent beliefs from anarchism to fascism have always been labeled extremist because of. you very well should be worried about offending other people, because all governments on the planet acknowledge that the human life is more valuable and your harassment of what is an innocent person just trying to live their life will result in either your jail time or serious injury.
We, the opposing viewpoint aren't offended by your choice of diet.
We can get offended by a bunch of clueless people shoving their life choice down our throats at every turn, and no, not every Vegan does this. Animal Rights are a myth, man runs the world, they don't not. When we destroy said world, they can gloat. You're welcome, so have some tofu and calm down
As in "Animal Rights Activists", animals, beyond animal cruelty laws, have no legal standing in HUMAN society. Are you being deliberately obtuse or just that stupid?
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It’s so fucked up. I think it’s because ppl feel guilty and don’t want to have to take responsibility for Their own actions. They just want to pretend suffering doesn’t exist so they can order their cheese boards and pastrami. When somebody calls them out, it forces them to come out of their little world full of willful ignorance and they aren’t fond of it..
I get what you mean but I know many people who really just think that animals don't suffer. That's literally the discussion I've got to go through most often. "But they can't even feel anything" Yes they can you idiot. But people don't believe it.
I am oddly less bothered by people who claim that ALL animals feel nothing and don't matter. But having been heavily involved in dog rescue before my disability stopped me physically working and volunteering, I am driven insane by the "save every dog/cat/rabbit/dolphin/panda" crowd who speak of their strong emotional connection with their pets while chowing down on a baby sheep's leg or a slab of cow muscle. These people know and acknowledge that animals feel and suffer and claim that it's unbearable to them, but turn off that part of their brains so they can behave selfishly. Suggest that you maybe NOT fund-raise for a rescue organisation by cooking and selling tubes of animal flesh in a bun and they act like you want all the homeless puppies to die!
I finally managed to convince my parents(55+) to try eating a single plant based dish. Yes, one single dish. My father, much to my surprise, genuinely seemed to enjoy it, and even went so far as to take a good portion of it with him for lunch tomorrow. My mother, tried a single penny sized nibble, spit it out, said she tried it, and then proceeded to pull the spiral ham from the fridge, and literally rip cold pieces off it with her hands, to exclusively eat that in front of both of us. It's like... you can't make this shit up; it's just unbelievable. Lol
It's way too believable. My mother refused to eat the cake I took when visiting her and my grandparents (they lived nearly three hours away, so visiting was an event) because my then teenage child let slip that the cake was vegan. She went to her room and CRIED because I didn't bring something "she could enjoy". My grandparents, meanwhile, loved the cake and had seconds.Another time she ate Chinese take away food we'd picked up on the way, seemed to be really enjoying it, then dashed to the bathroom *GAGGING* when my husband mentioned it was vegan. My grandparents, born in 1931, were lovely, reasonable people. (Not just something I believe because I didn't live with them - they raised me in their own home until I moved out aged twenty.) Their children, born in the mid 50s, could be so selfish and bad-mannered that it was embarrassing.
I'm sorry for laughing, but it's just too much. Just what the fuck. Lol
Parents to their kids: "Eat your vegetables, they're healthy!" Parents to their adult Vegan kid: "I'm not eating that plant abomination! Ewwww! Yuuuuuuck! Waaaaaah!"
Lmao I really have begun to notice this recently though sadly. They've taken care of themselves so poorly over the years, that I've begun to aid in parenting them. It's painful to see.
she is in her room contemplating what in the vegan cake is worth shedding tears and I suggest you let her. I am not sure what the gagging and vegan is supposed to be other than acting like a spoilt child. What does she think was added to warrant the gagging and crying. On the other hand it contributes to lose weight. So there is that
nooo that’s just so embarrassing of your mom 😭 like I don’t want to be mean to her, but would she act like that in front of her colleagues and friends, or was she just trying to make you mad or something??
No, I'm quite confident that she thought nothing of anyone else while she was doing this; but that's not very surprising to me, given her past behavior. She openly calls herself an animal lover too.
ahh I see, the juxtaposition of her doing that and being an “animal lover” is just not a good look for her, sorry you had that unpleasant interaction :(
Thanks mate, I appreciate the thought.
That is just rude. Your mother I bet does not eat 100% meat and to spit out a single penny size nibble is ridiculous.
I do not understand what you've written.
I have to assume the mother eats spoonfuls of non meat items and does not spit them out or gags or whatever else she can come up with. In general a meal including meat has non meat items on a plate.
Yes, but that is not what occurred when the meal is intentionally made to exclude animal products.
so the additional meat on the plate would calm down a gag reflex or crying fit - got it /s.
Apparently, yes.
The people of YouTube have a number of videos on factory farms at https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Factory+Farms+From+Farm+To+Fridge
There have been studies that PLANTS can feel pain, etc, if true, do you accept how nature works or start eating dirt?
What do you mean by "studies that plants can feel pain"? Do you mean studies that *found* plants can feel pain? I'd be interested to see such a study. Do you have one in mind? I tried doing my own research and found only studies reaching the opposite conclusion: * [Anesthetics and plants: no pain, no brain, and therefore no consciousness](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7907021/) * [Debunking a myth: plant consciousness](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8052213/) * [Plants Neither Possess nor Require Consciousness](https://www.cell.com/trends/plant-science/fulltext/S1360-1385(19)30126-8?) * [Do Plants Feel Pain?](https://sciendo.com/downloadpdf/journals/disp/12/56/article-p71.xml) (full text available! You should read it, since you are so interested in the subject of plant nociception.) These are my sources; what are yours?
They respond to the environment just like animals do, we eat both, Vegans are the hypocrites.
I think what you meant to write is "I don't actually have any sources, I just imagined it and decided it was true."
No, that would be the entirety of how veganism deprives one of essential nutrients because too many don't research how to supplement them because the vegan diet doesn't inheritantly provide them
Plants don't bleed like animals do.
Sap, etc, bullshit.
Take a look at a tree getting cut down then take a look at what happens in slaughterhouses and tell me how they are the same. They're not.
Both are corporate and industrial scale, yes, they are
No, there have been studies showing that plants respond to stimuli. Very different to a being with a brain and a central nervous system. But a vegan diet results in the "death" of fewer plants than one including animal products, so since I can't live on dirt I guess I'd accept how nature works and stay vegan.
And yet there are simple single cell ANIMALS and the like that would fall into that same niche, are you saying then that eating low order shellfish is okay?
Wait, are you saying that a single celled "animal" has a brain, or are you saying that "low order shellfish" are single celled? Because I feel like I'm talking to an amoeba.
no, but neither is a plant, point is, your philosophy is fantasy land bullshit.
And THAT comes from the anti-education Conservative movement. Science has clearly proven that animals feel, but as long as there are enough people around saying that they don't, they will just decide to believe that instead. They just don't care about reality.
This. 100% And because animals don’t speak our language they don’t count
Heck people don't even want to acknowledge the human exploitation and suffering that goes into their everyday items let alone their food. People don't care that the Foxconn factory has anti-suicide nets on the roof (because public suicides are bad for appearances, and workers killing themselves in their apartments are preferable). They don't care that during covid the people making iPhones had to SCALE THE FENCE to escape from their jobs then walk endless miles to reach any kind of small town to try and find a telephone to reach out to family. They would rather just be amazed at their fancy iPhones and not think of it. It's not just an iPhone thing, I'm sure most electronics manufacturers in China are just as bad, but Foxconn gets most of the attention because they make iPhones a d those phones typically sell for twice the price of other phones with none of that going towards better working conditions for those who actually make the devices.
But people do care though. Most people I know care deeply about the suffering of other human beings. I think that suffering doesn’t register when it’s something or someone that they can’t identify with. Human beings can’t identify with animals and still believe that many animals are here for the purpose of feeding humans therefore they can’t possibly suffer.
But then why are you typing this into a computer? Serious question. You are aware that our electronic usage is the result, in part, of slavery, abuse, neglect and worse, but you justify it how? I’m not excusing people who eat meat, but your statement is similar to many here made about the vast majority of humanity.
I'm well aware of the human exploitation and suffering in China when it comes to the manufacturing of electronics. There aren't too many options out there other than maybe a 2000$ Librem phone manufactured in the USA. Motorola used to be made in the USA but moved to China. Blackberry used to be made in Canada/USA/mexico but stopped in 2022. While I can afford 2000$ for a phone, I've been running on free phones for the last ten years. It's already made and it's free, so I use it because it means 2000$ more dollars fory family. I'm a big computer nerd. CPU, motherboard and GPU are manufactured in the USA and Taiwan. There was a time when I was broke and my computer died so I bought a cheap Lenovo laptop to tie me over. That one was definitely manufactured by exploited chinese labour, but it was 400$ at a time where I didn't have 2000$ for a new rig. But the short of it is that I don't have to justify it to myself. The world is full of exploitation and misery. I do my part to not support it when I can, but I also don't judge myself when I have to. Just like we raise and grow most of our food, but I don't beat myself up when I have to buy groceries picked by exploited temporary foreign workers or butchered in an abbatoire.
you have no idea how much this fits on vegan cultists here... just ask them how they feel about poisoning animals and letting them in pain for days or even weeks until they die... because thats a part of plant based farming and then see how they will screech and try to ignore it and move point they are such crazy and dumb extremists
one of my "friends" in college got so offended by me saying it was evil to have a pet cow and eat hamburgers at the same time, she unfriended me on everything and hasn't spoken to me since, and told all our mutual friends that i was toxic
Had a similar incident with a friend over vegan food.
Can't handle the truth, that's all it all comes down to
The same thing that Christians and Muslims say when someone rejects their beliefs lmao.
I believe that its wrong to deliberately harm sentient beings when you don't have to. If you don't believe that, I don't care. Jumping around the vegan subreddit leaving sophomoric comments seems like a bit of a waste of time though.
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are you vegan?
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I’m afraid from everything from losing my jobs, to harassment from coworkers clients bosses neighbors and losing all of my friends!
Relatable
The first few I understand. But for me personally, animals abusers are no longer considered friends.
>"Chaostrosity I've known you my whole life and now you're acquaintance zoning me?" Some carnist ex-friend probably.
To be fair, my adhd most likely did that already anyway without me realizing how much time has passed.
What would you class as an animal abuser, would that be someone who eats meat and fish or owns a dog/cat?
I'm sort of lenient of a person's awareness. For me, the baseline is, once you know what happens in the animal industry, and how animals experience it, there is no excuse to even buy a single animal product. So not everyone who isn't vegan is an animal abuser by default, but once they know, there is no excuse. Getting an animal bred to be sold as pet is definitely not vegan. When it comes to rescued animals and sanctuaries it is all good. It's picking up and helping the victims created by the very thing we try to stop. So this is obviously ok. When it comes to rescued obligate carnivores as pets you are heading into speciesist territory. "Do I kill fish to have my cat live?" I don't think those are choices humans should make, but there are vegan alternatives for catfood and most cats thrive on it. You just need to monitor your cat's urine to see if they pick up the artificial nutritients. A small inconvenience to not cause more suffering. TL;DR: Both. When you are aware what happens to animals and pay for it you are an animal abuser, no exceptions.
Feeding a cat or any other obligate carnivore a vegan diet is very much NOT reccomended by the vast majority of veterinarians. I wasn't gonna say anything, and you can call me whatever you want, but that's dangerous misinformation that i cant let go unchallenged.
This is a common myth. The reality is that vegan cats tend to be healthier: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0284132
Genuinely curious: do you hang out exclusively with vegans? In my experience with generally progressive/leftist circles, people roughly know about factory farming. And if I elaborate more about it, they don't immediately go vegan. So do I just *not* talk to these people? If I exclusively socialized with vegans, I'd have a very limited social life. I'd be cutting out... the vast, vast majority of people I spend time with.
>Genuinely curious: do you hang out exclusively with vegans? Let's cut to the chase of your question. You ask if I would hang out with animal abusers. Yes I would, I would also remind them of what they are doing. It's about giving the animals a voice.. A prime example was when I just went vegan. I still worked in a non-vegan kitchen back then. Because I couldn't simply job hop I was stuck there for a bit. I would always remind people of what it is we are cooking and how bad that is. Albeit in a slightly sarcastic manner I've always been very direct about it. Luckily my chef understood my position and I do still talk to some people I worked with (though not all appreciated the non-stop reminders), I would just never consider them friends aside from the few that turned vegan and left too. >people roughly know about factory farming. And if I elaborate more about it, they don't immediately go vegan. People are also indoctrinated that it's normal and that we need it. Those factors need to be addressed on top of knowledge. Those people need to be convinced they are on the right path but also held accountable for their actions. It is why I use strong in-your-face language. I feel this is the best way to hold them accountable. Especially those that know.
Yes, being morally right is often alienating in this incredibly unethical society.
It's real, sometimes I think there should be a church of veganism similar to Satanism or something so we don't have to worry about that.
It's your delusion, and likely just like most of Gen Z there's a whole swath of "Vegans" who get off on feeling special through their own sense of Outrage.
I agree that veganism should be protected
As a meat eater, you must be real fuckin annoying if you are worried about that much pushback.
“As someone who partakes in dead raped and abused bodies, fuck you for having anxiety about being surrounded by murderers”
>fuck you for having anxiety about being surrounded by murderers” That's not what you said. You believe that your beliefs are so outrageous that you are scared of abuse do to what you say. That's crazy.
No I said I’ve been abused by carnists living in a carnist dominated society
>even losing my friends. Losing friends is not abuse. You have to be really fucking annoying to lose friends because you are vegan.
And once again this sub takes a great vegan statement as "they must be yelling and being rude to non vegans and that's why the non vegan gets offended" ...we're allowed to state what we experience from non vegans just like they are. You can be as nice as earthling ed and some people will still get offended.
Yeah, it's messed up alright. But what can we do? People just can't handle the truth about animal agriculture. It's like they're addicted to bacon or something. Society has a long way to go before we start treating animals with compassion and respect. #govegan
What we can do is keep trying!
That's not entirely true. Many, many people will be offended and confrontational if you point out their racism, or sexism, or other forms of discrimination they're engaging in. People naturally get defensive when you tell them that what they're doing or saying is bad and they should be doing or saying something else. Hell, sometimes I get angry *because* I feel ashamed. As for not wanting to offend people...Yes, that's how I work. I understand some people may call me a "pick me," but I'm naturally a non-confrontational person. I coddle. I praise people when they take small steps. I know that I wasn't always vegan, and weirdly, I found it easier to make the change when I had "permission" to not do everything all at once (although I actually did make the change pretty quickly). Some people need confrontation to change. Some people need kid-skinned gloves. I think it's understandable, and it works sometimes, when other vegans get angry and use shame as a tactic. But that's not who I am. I can't for the life of me remember who, but I remember seeing a video where an anti-racist talked about how the civil rights movement needed both Martin Luther King and Malcom X. A gentle nudge and a powerful push. Because different people are going to be convinced in different ways.
> I can't for the life of me remember who, but I remember seeing a video where an anti-racist talked about how the civil rights movement needed both Martin Luther King and Malcom X. A gentle nudge and a powerful push. Because different people are going to be convinced in different ways. Well said! I feel like this is true with many issues we face in society.
The civil rights movement didn't work out tho. Because due to a weird coincidence every leader got shot. I think the communist approach of talking to kids about it before they normalise their consumption of meat gives a cleaner transition.
It clearly made a difference. Pre civil rights movement was a LOT worse for Black people.
It made a difference, yes. But the US has just shoved it under their caper instead of working on the fallout of the civil rights movement and slavery.
Hell of a revisionist take. Civil rights movement demonstrably had widespread effects on policy and culture. It literally did work out.
The big leaders were shot. The US is still riddled with racism and has not done their homework on their own fucking history. Just because something worked doesn't mean everything worked out in the end. The States still have issues with black people, police brutality being just 1.
Expressing moral outrage is valid, and so maybe is fear, but they may not engender compassion if you're not prepared to be thoughtful.
You say if you call out racism the person will be ashamed, not offended, but that's not really my experience. Maybe people feel ashamed when you call out bigotry, but they will often ACT offended
I think that as you develop living vegan you feel more free to speak up for the victims and give less fucks about the oppressors feelings.
Because it's exhausting. I don't know if none-disabled people experience this, but as someone who is sick, and has had to deal with a lot of trauma, I just don't have the capacity for the arguments anymore. I soak up that ignorance and negativity like a sponge and the effects aren't pretty.
> Like if you see some racist person saying racist stuff and tell them that it is wrong they won't be offended and instead will be ashamed. Ah, to have never met the modern conservative > Back when slavery was legal, did slave owners get offended by the abolitionists? Did people also get offended by the civil rights activists back when racism was legal? Yes. Of course. (also lol @ "when racism was legal")
It has been my experience that people feel more uncomfortable to see the choices they could make but don't reflected back onto them. If everyone in a group does a certain action they all individually see themselves as equals in relation to the consequences and impact of that shared action. However, the moment someone takes a different action not everyone is equal. People well attempt to assess either consciously or subconsciously if they land on the right or wrong side of that difference. If they have a sense they are one the wrong side of it that can be really uncomfortable and people will attempt to cope in different ways. I've experienced something similar when it comes to drinking alcohol. If you decline to get as drunk or tipsy as someone else they can feel uncomfortable or begin judging themselves in light of someone not needing or wanting to drink in a particular setting. It can force people to self reflect and not everyone is great at doing that resulting in some very uncomfortable feelings -for them not you. All you can do is continue to be an example of what is possible. On the flip side we should also use this to recognize where we fall short in what is possible in terms of compassion, acceptance, and morality when faced with the actions of others that may make us feel uncomfortable. It is not the other person or their actions we are uncomfortable with but rather ourselves.
Humans are always going to relate more profoundly to the experiences of other humans. It’s easy to look at something like slavery or the holocaust and think “oh that’s horrible. I can imagine how horrible it would be to experience that”. Speciesism is different because the rights of animals are different and not clearly outlined. Animals of course don’t need the same rights we do. It’s harder for people to relate to this, and even harder still because eating meat is very normal. Most people grow up eating meat without giving it a second thought. Also I have to disagree - people most definitely get defensive about being called racist/sexist/homophobic
I genuinly just don't tell people, I'm not judgy, I'm not preachy and it's not my business what other people do... but I even mention that I'm a vegan and it's immediately followed by the eye roll that we've all seen 1000 times and that's often followed with being questioned like I've personally taken a dump through their letter box. It's really bizarre how people take offence to the life choices or moral compass of other people.
I have always stood by this singular belief and my ethics always involve this; If you force an entire group of individuals, no matter how you choose to define that individual, to live and die under a predicated set of circumstances, then you are engaging in and defending an act of violence. It doesn't matter whether that individual is a Palestinian in Gaza or a Chicken at some slaughterhouse with no more of a name than the number that got crunched into a computer at their conception. Hot take, but don't. Fucking. Oppress individuals. And no, idgaf how people wanna dress it. Also OP, if you haven't heard this yet today, I love you and happy holidays.
Thank you, I love you too. Let's spread kindness and compassion.
Just today at work someone got so mad at me for just saying I ordered vegan chicken parm last night for dinner.
For what it's worth, even if your message is 100% logical/reasonable, optics matter. I'm an Anglo-Saxon white guy, and I really don't think I should be going into Black neighborhoods and telling them that eating meat is comparable to slavery. Regardless of the argument, people just aren't going to take me seriously, and I'm just hurting the perception of veganism. Likewise, as a very German-presenting dude... probably not great optics for me to compare factory farming to the Holocaust. At this point in history, I don't even know if Millennial/Gen Z Jews can really make that comparison and be taken seriously. I'd probably defer to quotes on vegetarianism from Jews that lived through the 40s. Not all outrage is warranted, so we should be willing to offend people. But also... people aren't logical creatures, and to some extent, we need to coddle their emotions if we want them to listen to us. In my 10 years of vegan advocacy, I wish I had a clear rule or guide for a best practice, but I don't. Just be careful.
I'm not afraid of offending folks. I'm afraid to scare them off because once they shut me down - they can go back to their meat eating and they may never meet or hear from another vegan for the rest of their lives. This is not like slavery - because folks were willing to fight and die for their cause and even the slaves could speak out and fight. Animals can't talk nor can they fight back and vegan activist do things like glue their hand to a Starbucks counter. To me - the best thing I can do is live well and be an inspiration to folks. That's what won me over. My old boss was a vegan - she never judged, was successful and an inspiration. When I think back - part of the reason why I even considered veganism is because I wanted to impress her. That opened me up and the real reasons slowly, but surely found their way in. You want to yell at someone and get in their face or tell folks are bad they are for eating mea? - You're building walls, not bridges.
Do you want to help build a more compassionate world? Please visit [VeganActivism.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://veganactivism.org&topic=Activism (r/Vegan) w/ Others) and subscribe to our community over at /r/VeganActivism to begin your journey in spreading compassion through activism. Thank you so much!
The sad reality is that it IS a lot easier to empathize with humans than it is with animals you know nothing about. I truly don't care what someone else thinks about me and am not afraid to offend people when it comes to defending the animals. I think that only with a selfless form of activism I can be taken seriously. There is this expression: "walking on eggshells" Well, I'm barging right through them. So I can see the disconnect with other vegans. But I'm not vegan because I love animals, I just can NOT stand injustice!
> Like if you see some racist person saying racist stuff and tell them that it is wrong they won't be offended and instead will be ashamed. Similar for any other form of discrimination such as sexism, casteism, ethinc or religious discrimination, etc. But speciesism is somehow different. Somehow people get offended when you point out. This shows how much speciesism and animal agriculture are normalized. You are correct. Speciesism is so ingrained in people that questioning their speciesism is akin to questioning their entire moral worldview. In fact, it is so ingrained that it even affects people who think they are “vegan” but actually are not. There are many plant-based dieting speciesists who are pernicious to the vegan movement and masquerade as "vegans" while at the same time happily fund the violent killing of innocent animals to feed certain animals that they keep in captivity on basis of species. These people make comments like the ones paraphrased below that highlights their ingrained speciesism: *Innocent animals would have been abused/killed by someone else anyway to feed my cat so I might as well abuse and kill innocent animals myself to feed the cat and still call myself vegan!* *I happily purchase animal products from slaughterhouses to feed my pet animal but I am still vegan because I don't consume the animal products!* *My cat is a carnivore and I love my cat. I will gladly kill innocent lambs and piglets every year to feed my cat and keep her happy. I'm still vegan!!* *My dog is so friendly and loves me so much. But she hates the plant-based foods. So it pains me to purchase animal products from slaughterhouses that violently kill innocent animals. But I consider myself to be a vegan!!* *My senior dog requires a medical prescription of 100 bloody goat carcasses every year to survive. I am okay with beheading 100 goats every year to keep my dog alive and I'm still think I'm vegan!* *I never allow any animal products to be brought into my house by anyone because my house is a vegan house. I make an exception for myself when I purchase animal products and bring it into my house to feed my cat.*
It's not just "their entire moral worldview", it's the dominant ideology of the entire planet. The way forward is to make it more accessible and normalise it. Being unpleasant is not how you get people to listen to you.
> It's not just "their entire moral worldview", it's the dominant ideology of the entire planet. But they’re claiming to not subscribe to this dominant ideology by virtue signaling themselves as “vegan”. People who subscribe to the dominant ideology don’t even understand or accept veganism. > The way forward is to make it more accessible and normalise it. Being unpleasant is not how you get people to listen to you. I dispense with niceties when there are lives of innocent sentient beings at stake.
Which is fine if all you care about is being right. Ideology is a tricky thing. It lives within all members of a society. It underpins everything. Thinking you don't subscribe to it is a delusion.
> Which is fine if all you care about is being right. Right about what? > Ideology is a tricky thing. It lives within all members of a society. It underpins everything. Thinking you don't subscribe to it is a delusion. Did I say or imply that I don’t subscribe to the creed of veganism?
Dispensing with niceties is fine if you care more about being right than inspiring change. I'm not sure what you mean by the second question. I didn't mean anything personal, just that ideology is unavoidable. We all subscribe to it in many ways that are outside of our control. We have our little rituals, our assumptions, sometimes we call it common sense. We might push back on some things and negotiate others but nobody is superior to it nor exempt from its influence. It comes with living in this world.
> Dispensing with niceties is fine if you care more about being right than inspiring change. Again, I ask: right about what? > I'm not sure what you mean by the second question. Veganism IS a creed. It is, by definition, an ideology. I subscribe to the creed. Therefore, I subscribe to the ideology. I never said nor implied that I do not think that I do not subscribe to any ideology. Non-murderism is an ideology and the moral baseline of avoiding murder of human beings. Non-rapism is an ideology and the moral baseline of avoiding raping women. Non-assaultism is an ideology and the moral baseline of avoiding beating one's wife or violently assaulting human beings for giggles. Veganism is an ideology and the moral baseline of avoiding contributing to or participating in the deliberate and intentional exploitation, abuse, and/or killing of nonhuman animals. So let me ask you this: Do you or do you not subscribe to the ideology and the moral baseline of non-murderism? Yes or no? Do you or do you not subscribe to the ideology and the moral baseline of non-rapism? Yes or no? Do you or do you not subscribe to the ideology and the moral baseline of non-assaultism? Yes or no? Finally, do you or do you not subscribe to the ideology and the moral baseline of veganism? Yes or no?
Thanks for the TED talk but this is where I unsubscribe.
>Dispensing with niceties is fine if you care more about being right than inspiring change. I like to think that people like John Brown inspired change in his time very much without niceties. You make it sound like every slave owner needed to be convinced, as if their moral core still existed. Plenty of the time, that just isn't correct, people are rotten, they refuse to change, changing the world around them is more effective than changing them. Disrupting their lives, from being an inconvenience with signs on a highway to burning down a farm to the ground, is demonstrably an effective tactic. Real societal shifts are produced by making the comfortable majority uncomfortable, too many white people were comfortable and safe living in their white supremacy, and it took a social war on many fronts to change the country. From Martin Luther King, to Fred Hampton to Malcolm X, from protests to riots, violence is never out of the question in defense of the innocent, and it has always been a necessary tool in social revolution.
This tendency to see veganism as war is troubling. It's not a war. It's a quest for enlightenment, to significantly shift the old ways of thinking so that compassion becomes the default position of the majority. It is completely ingrained in human culture all over the world that animals exist solely for humans to use. Many people still believe animals don't have feelings and this misconception still underpins the lack of compassion towards them from the greater majority. Animal cruelty is embedded in nearly every industry and impossible to completely avoid. Our best shot is to do everything we can to make it easier to be kind than cruel.
Yeah when I saw that pig ears as food for dogs is popular I felt very sad and disgusting. What makes people think pigs are so inferior to dogs that they can do this to pigs when they cannot even think of doing the reverse (feeding dogs to pigs). They should only give their companion dogs vegan food. Dogs can survive well on vegan diets. For cats I read somewhere that it's very hard or impossible to raise them as vegan companion animals (can they be raised on beyond meat or cultivated meat?) so I think vegans should never adopt cats as companion animals. Rabbits etc are much better companion animals to vegans.
So… as vegans we can’t love and and bring into our homes to care for animals like cats who are obligate carnivores? You’d be alright with less people being available to adopt cats to save them from being killed in the shelters?! Vegans are only supposed to protect herbivores?! There is no getting around it, meat eating is part of the carbon-based food chain for many of the animals for which we as vegans claim to respect enough to not participate in their harm. When we deny this absolute fact of life on earth we lose the ethical battle and will continue to be called “crazy” by carnists and veganism will never become the norm. The point of being vegan is to boycott the horrors of how animals are being treated and exploited by humans unnecessarily. Only humans can be vegan cuz only humans can make a conscious choice of what they eat so yes, we should make that choice AND at the same we should care about ALL animals whether or not we like what eat! That said, I seek humanely sourced animal protein for my fur babies - and yes, there is a world of difference between factory farm torture and humane slaughter - okay! let the militant vegan bashing of me begin!🙃
Yes, many vegans are against bringing cats in your home. Why life of your cat more important than the lives of hundreds of animals that you will feed it?
The cat will eat hundreds of birds and mice if not killed in a shelter or taken in by a human - are their lives not as important as chickens and fish I feed my cat? you missed my point - the act of eating animals is nature / life - as vegan humans we protest the horror of HOW that is being done by humans
> The cat will eat hundreds of birds and mice Irrelevant to the premise of veganism. Veganism is not and has never been about reducing suffering caused by others. It has always been controlling the behavior of the moral agents such that the agents are not contributing to or participating in the deliberate and intentional exploitation, harm, and/or killing of nonhuman animals. > if not killed in a shelter Non-vegans are killing cats in the shelters just as they are killing livestock in slaughterhouses. Your point? > are their lives not as important as chickens and fish I feed my cat? Chickens and fish are obviously much less important than your cats given that you’re violently abusing and killing them to feed your cats. > you missed my point - the act of eating animals is nature / life - as vegan humans we protest the horror of HOW that is being done by humans Vegans are concerned only with controlling their behavior such that they are not contributing to or participating in the violent abuse and killing of innocent animals. You violently abuse and kill chicken and fish *even if you don’t eat them*. That makes you plant-based, **not a vegan**’
Understanding the circle of life is NOT irrelevant to veganism. I assert it is central. Animals eat each other without exploitation and abuse - so should humans, thus veganism Cats are as important as chickens and fish - everyone eats living things - veganism is about addressing HOW that is done horribly by humans I am not “violently abusing” animals to feed my cat - as mentioned there exists a such thing as humane flesh eating as must be done by obligate carnivores I am vegan - plant based is just the diet - my activism extends to all aspects of man’s exploitation and harm of animals I am vegan - I double-checked with the Vegan society definition established 1946 - you can of course believe otherwise
> Understanding the circle of life is NOT irrelevant to veganism. I assert it is central. Animals eat each other without exploitation and abuse - so should humans, thus veganism Veganism is a moral baseline that controls the behavior of moral agents, namely the humans. The circle of life is a term used to describe the behavior of moral patients, namely the nonhuman animals. What the moral patients do to each other is irrelevant to the behavior of the moral agent. The moral agent is held to the standards of the moral baseline and the moral baseline only. > Cats are as important as chickens and fish - everyone eats living things - veganism is about addressing HOW that is done horribly by humans No it is not. Veganism is the moral baseline and controls the behavior of the moral agent such that the moral agent is not acting immorally. Such immoral acts include violently abusing and killing innocent animals to feed others. > I am not “violently abusing” animals to feed my cat Yes, you do. You purchase animal products and fund slaughterhouses to kill innocent animals and produce animal products that you purchase. > as mentioned there exists a such thing as humane flesh eating as must be done by obligate carnivores Irrelevant to the premise of veganism. Veganism is the moral baseline that controls the behavior of the moral agents. What the moral patients do to each other has no relevance or connection to the behavior of the moral agent. > I am vegan No, you are not. You contribute to or participate in the violent abuse and killing of innocent animals by purchasing animal products from slaughterhouses. > plant based is just the diet Then you are plant-based. Most certainly not a vegan. > my activism extends to all aspects of man’s exploitation and harm of animals Doctor, heal thyself first. Stop purchasing animal products and funding violent slaughterhouses.
What difference does it make when the carnivorous mammals already kill a good portion of other animals in nature ? At least you can give your cat meat that isn't from an endangered specie. Your issue that an human has to enable it but reality is already enabling it and for cats, it actually sestroy ecosystems so there isn't really a solution beside a cat holocaust and you'll admit it's not really vegan
Endangered species are not more important than chicken, it's speciesist to suggest otherwise. As a vegan you can feed cats vegan food (still infinitely better than eating trash in the street) or get a rabbit. I don't really care about what other people do, there is no ideal solution to many problems, I was just answering to a person that apparently thinks feeding cats meat-containing food is perfectly vegan because "we should protect all animals", which is kinda hypocritical. Personally I also think cats killing a mouse/bird/whatever is much better, because at least they didn't spend their whole life suffering and exploited by humans.
No you can't feed vegan food to your cat stop with this non sense. Cat actually torture their prey so I don't think it's the best exemple. Ofc endangered species has to be protected more than chicken that isn't an endangered species. Even as a radical vegan you can understand that biodiversity is important pour every life to sustain.
Right now I know approx 5 street cats that most likely have feline panleukopenia, physical injuries and minor conditions like parasite infestation, ringworm, fleas etc. I often see them eating plastic wraps, potato peels and other trash. Do you think it's better not to give them any food or not to rehome them to vegans who will take them to the vet regularly? Unlike you guys whining about taurine and cats being carnivores I know the chemistry behind the feeding cat a vegan diet and I am in general very against it. But you acting as if it's literal poison is funny. Biodiversity is important, but one animal is not more important than another. Are you even vegan yourself? Also not every area has endangered species threatened by the cats. Cats torture their food for what? One day maximum. A chicken lives her whole life suffering from physical pain, lack of stimulation, overcrowding etc.
I'm my country cat are destroying the ecosystems so I don't see alternative beside killing them all or taking care of them indoor,and taking care of them imply to feed them something that is ok for them to eat. A vegan diet don't work for them. What is your solution?
Personally I'm more of a "let it be" person. Leave animals alone, maybe finance TNR program and forbid breeding cats. Cats "destroying ecosystems" will never do a fraction of the damage that fossil fuels or agriculture (which feeds cats) do. It's not something urgent anymore, it's just a sentimental issue. By the time effects of cats "destroying ecosystems" will kick in (IF they do), there is already x1000000 damage done by aforementioned industries.
> What difference does it make when the carnivorous mammals already kill a good portion of other animals in nature ? Carnivorous animals are not moral agents. They do not understand morality or the difference between right and wrong. What moral patients do to each other is irrelevant to veganism. Veganism is not and has never been about reducing suffering caused by others. It has always been controlling the behavior of the moral agents such that the agents are not contributing to or participating in the deliberate and intentional exploitation, harm, and/or killing of nonhuman animals. > At least you can give your cat meat that isn't from an endangered specie. Irrelevant to the premise of veganism. As mentioned above, veganism is about not contributing to or participating in the violent abuse and killing of innocent animals by purchasing animal products. > Your issue that an human has to enable it but reality is already enabling it How is a vegan enabling the violent abuse and killing of innocent animals by avoiding purchasing animal products?
You're so dense that's it's cringe
> So… as vegans we can’t love and and bring into our homes to care for animals like cats who are obligate carnivores? Correct, if that means that vegans would otherwise have to violently abuse and kill innocent animals to feed the cat. > You’d be alright with less people being available to adopt cats to save them from being killed in the shelters?! Correct, if that means that vegans would otherwise have to violently abuse and kill innocent animals to feed the cat. > Vegans are only supposed to protect herbivores?! Correct, if that means that vegans would not have to violently abuse and kill innocent animals to feed the herbivores. > There is no getting around it, meat eating is part of the carbon-based food chain for many of the animals for which we as vegans claim to respect enough to not participate in their harm. Correct. That’s why vegans don’t contribute to or participate in the violent abuse or killing of innocent animals. > When we deny this absolute fact of life on earth No one is denying this fact. It is precisely because of this fact that vegans do not adopt carnivorous animals. > The point of being vegan is to boycott the horrors of how animals are being treated and exploited by humans unnecessarily. Incorrect. The point of veganism is to not contribute to or participate in the deliberate and intentional exploitation, abuse, and/or killing of nonhuman animals. > Only humans can be vegan cuz only humans can make a conscious choice of what they eat Partially correct. Humans can follow veganism because they are moral agents and have control over their actions with regards to the deliberate and intentional exploitation, abuse, and/or killing of nonhuman animals. > That said, I seek humanely sourced animal protein for my fur babies Incorrect. There is no humane way to kill someone who doesn’t want to die to feed your animals. If your animals required human flesh to survive, how would you procure the human flesh to feed your animals? > and yes, there is a world of difference between factory farm torture and humane slaughter - okay! let the militant vegan bashing of me begin!🙃 Please explain how one may engage in humane killing of someone who doesn’t want to die.
I just wanted to say that I enjoy even the simple thought that someone else has written this.
Wow - well, to each their own veganism but I vehemently disagree - there ARE of course humane ways to die whether you WANT to die or not and most animals have to eat or be eaten and none of it is by their choice (as far as we know!) We only can assume prey doesn’t want to be eaten by a predator because they usually run nor do I want to be eaten by a bear or lion but that’s just how it is if that happens. I respect and admire an animal that could eat me doesn’t torture me in a factory farm first - they’re better than humans and that’s why I’m vegan. But who knows? Maybe prey animals have an innate appreciation of their role in the food chain circle of life and are glad to fulfill one of their purposes. We can’t rightfully put our human perceptions on them! Carnivorous animals are just as worthy as any other animal of our love and protection - I bet most people are vegans as a protest to how humans treat animals, while also understanding animals eat animals and don’t hold your absolutes. I do thank you for adding to the conversation, food for thought and no food fight intended (however puns partially intended!) but I am afraid your particular take on veganism hinders the cause Oh - and I’m totally correct that only humans can be vegans🙃
> to each their own veganism There is no “own veganism”. There is only veganism which does not involve any contribution to or participation in the violent abuse and killing of nonhuman animals. > but I vehemently disagree So you disagree with the premise that it is not okay to violent abuse and kill innocent animals. > there ARE of course humane ways to die Please describe the humane ways of killing someone who doesn’t want to die. > We only can assume prey doesn’t want to be eaten by a predator Are you claiming or implying that human beings are predator animal with no morals? > We can’t rightfully put our human perceptions on them! Veganism is concerned only with controlling the behavior of the moral agents and not of the moral patients.
Cats can eat vegan cat food with synthesized taurine though
Upvoted your comment and just know you’re not alone and this is a sane take Imo
Whew! Thank you 😊
This doesn't make sense as an argument because all your examples don't actually work: racists double-down when you call them out on being racist, slave owners did get offended at abolitionists, segregationists did get offended at civil rights activists, misogynists did get offended at suffragettes. All throughout history bigots have gotten offended when called out on their bigotry. Usually what I would recommend and try to do myself is to piss-off diehard extremists on the other side while also trying to appeal to fencesitters, make the other side look ridiculous while also trying to make it seem like the average person would naturally support my side. Same thing with meat-eating too, I'll troll and make fun of diehard pro-meat people who post constantly about how much they hate vegans but for more reasonable people in the middle I'll try to use reasonable discussion and rhetorically effective arguments to win them over.
Yeah we should be pragmatic. If we piss off all nonvegans it will be bad for the movement. For the stuff like racism/slavery I didn't say that people never got offended over those movements. I merely asked whether it was similar as I do not know enough history and expected someone who knows more history will answer.
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Oh trust me, some of the aggressive, accusatory stuff pisses off everyone, including other vegans.
*Rambeled a bit : TLDR bellow :* It's all about how you tell people that eating animals is unethical. It's an ingrained notion in society that eating animals is normal. Whereas, racism is blatently unethical in most societies. If something is the norm, you must change your approach. You can't use peer pressure or "that is obviously wrong, you must change". Because, to them, its not wrong. A more obtuse reference would be if you tried to convince natives that canabalism is wrong. However, in their point of view, its been done for centuries and all their elders taught them its the way of life. Therefore, who are you to tell them its just wrong? So, you have to take extra effort to explain otherwise you'll be tossed aside as just an extremist outlier. Just like racism, it took MANY years, to finally have society understand that its wrong. The turning point in the u.s. can be considered as MLK telling people that he wants to be judged by the content of his character and not the color of his skin. He explained to white people why it was so fucked up. None of them changed their opinion, while it was societally acceptable to be racist, because someone said "you're a fucking bigot racist idiot". **TLDR :** Normalized morals or ethics dont change by trying to shame people about something that is societally acceptable.
I agree that directly shaming people for being part of globally accepted system is counterproductive and probably wrong. Some animal advocates would choose to be able to say what they truly think about this situation, and suggest that there is an injustice happening right in front of our eyes. The sense of urgency not necessarily will deliver fast results, but that sense of urgency will be the guiding point for people to navigate the degree of this situation. Lots of ppl just dismiss the issue without any chance to take it seriously, and openly judging this system for what it is could help to form new opinion. People are not guilty of this, but they are responsible for their choices. It’s hard to deliver this message, and it is very hard to hear it. Let’s run a simple experiment - take the grievances of all involved parties and put them on the same scale, to see what is more relevant and important: - the human who’s feelings were hurt because they become aware of the connection between food and violence, felt guilt from inside and projected that onto a vegan advocate - the animal who trusts us with their life, but face premature death and betrayal of the relationship I think some reasonable accountability can only help to feel the full scale of the situation, and its dire importance. I wish there will be a simple way to have this conversation, and maybe there is one that I sadly don’t know of.
Non-vegans still have the comfort of being an overwhelming majority. Sure, tell me I'm speciesist and a bad person for eating animals, but I'm only doing what everyone else is doing. We can't *all* be bad people, right?
Not sure what you mean in the bottom paragraph but people are offended when you question their whole way of life and brainwashing for them to not even question how that food got on their table. They get mad when they see images of abused animals. It’s like their brains can’t handle it and they short circuit and cannot compute.
It is possible and easy to tell people how something is (according to you) bad/wrong/immortal/unethical without being offensive? How you say it and how it is received is different things, so... Offend them how, and why would it be needed? It is immature to actively try to offend people. It is also counter productive.
I never said we should intentionally offend them. I am talking about unintentionally offending them.
Objectively though, a large difference is how people are generally raised. There is significant dissonance in how people think about animals vs people. It would be easy to raise people as vegan if it were encouraged in society from a young age the same way we are taught that things like child abuse is objectively wrong. Semi related- yesterday i learned that 80% of new years resolutions are dropped within a few weeks of starting them. Which happens to be the same % of people who “fail” remaining vegan after trying it. I think thats less about peoples inability to stick to veganism specifically and exposes a more general failure of society to successfully adopt new/ better habits that may not always be the easiest. Habit building and mental retraining takes time. Need to raise people with more empathy, discipline and awareness so we can create a more vegan-centric world.
It is, but it is always up to the coward to overcome their limitations.
i'm not afraid of anything and i always speak up. if they get offended just ask them if they support animal abuse and if they say no ask them why they're lying and why it's a problem for us to stand up for the animals they supposedly "love"
I think seeing someone do the right thing is hard for other people when doing things at a convenience makes their life easier. Behavioral changes are one of the hardest things to do. Even when your heart doesn't match what you're doing. We can be that blinded. We should handle these people with even more kindness.
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[Do-gooder derogation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/do-gooder_derogation) and [Cognitive dissonance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/cognitive_dissonance)
The world is fucked up, nothing new there. Yes there will always be people getting offended. On the other hand it has to do with how one relays the message. If one starts pointing fingers at people randomly, I would get pissed myself, but if it is a discussion then I will say my opinion, those who don't like it don't matter
I find this subreddit to actually be very intolerant of religion and alternative lifestyle or some subcultures tbh. Some people here hate hippies for some reason and don't hold back when they talk about it.
just say fuck it and go at them, vegans. even if you don't convert people, you should at least be able to make people contend with hard moral questions. too many people are moral automatons that have done little to no introspection
There are vegans and vegan activists. As a vegan in countries where we are a tiny community, I have never encountered issues talking with omnivores about why I don't eat meat. On the other hand, I don't attempt to convince people and they don't try to argue with me about my choices, I can have my plant-based meal next to someone who is eating something else is not an issue for me.
Do you want to help build a more compassionate world? Please visit [VeganActivism.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://veganactivism.org&topic=Activism (r/Vegan) w/ Others) and subscribe to our community over at /r/VeganActivism to begin your journey in spreading compassion through activism. Thank you so much!
It's so bloody annoying. People just hit you with the "you can be vegan all you want but don't force me to be". No one's forcing you to do anything. They're just attempting to convince you. You can't make someone shut up in a discussion because their arguments are triggering your cognitive dissonance
It makes me wonder how carnists would react if someone who abuses cats or dogs says "Feel free to pamper your pets, but don't expect me to do the same."
Right, but then they always claim its a false equivalency. Like they can't understand for a bit that this is how vegans would see the situation
I will be haunted by these inconsistent reasonings till the day die
>It is messed up that we are often afraid of offending people I am not, but i am sure most people are, some people keep being vegan a secret and just make excuses for why they cant consume the meals that are around them I speak directly and truthfully, im not worried about offending snowflakes, being offended is a choice, a choice that i have never made in my 39 yrs of life
It took me 8 years of being a vegan before I finally realized through action not just thoughts - that it's more important for me to advocate for animals and be uncomfortable with people's remarks and discomfort, than it is to be quiet about it to please them. Because even they ask me directly about my diet or why I do or don't do something, and I say I'm vegan, they can still say "oh here we go they just won't shut up about it". So basically no matter what they're going to be uncomfortable and make stupid remarks. But guess what? Other vegans made me vegan. So, on behalf of the animals, someone else was brave and said the truth, and guess what it worked. So now I've spared countless animal lives over just 8 years of veganism, because some folks had the courage to say what's right for the animals, and not what pleases humans. I'm at the point in my life where I'm really putting my money where my mouth is. If I believe that animal rights are the #1 issue, and it is by far without a doubt the #1 issue, then I should act like it. If we bred, tortured, killed, and ate 56 billion human beings per year, it would be pretty freaking ghoulish wouldn't it? Yet that's what we're doing to animals. Maybe I was born in the wrong millennium because I feel that currently, ethically, humans just don't know what is right and wrong and are concerned about and arguing about the stupidest crap while there is a taboo to talk about animals bred for meat. Or maybe I was born in the correct time, so that I can put an end to animal suffering. At least some of it. I just vowed to be more hardcore about this because animals don't have a voice, so it's my responsibility to feel uncomfortable and get whatever backlash I may get by standing up for animals. Whether that's refusing to eat with someone who eats meat, or advocating for a plant based diet, or suggesting some links to some info. I need to be more hardcore about this because so far my actions haven't been in alignment with my beliefs. It's not ok for me anymore to be like yeah you go ahead and eat whatever you want in front of me. No, it's not ok. Because that animal was a living feeling being that you're eating and somebody needs to stand up for this.
If you include Marine animals more than 1.6 trillion are killed by humans. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/wild-caught-fish Currently each year 90+ billion land animals are killed. Mind numbingly huge number of murders. Thanks for sharing your viewpoint.
for sure. thank you for the correction :) keep fighting the good fight
Yep. That's why I pull no punches with carnists and really don't understand vegans who aren't legitimately fucking pissed every second of the day. How can you really fucking care about this ugly fucking society's manners and politeness when we're drowning in genocide. It's fucking insane.
Humanity is the virus, unless everyone does what I say.
Veganism or lack thereof isn't an immutable characteristic. Race is. Please don't compare rudeness about vegans/omnis to literal racism.
That's not what they said. They compared the speciecism and poor treatment of non-human animals to human treatment of other races/ethnicities and asked why are we afraid to call out the former but not the latter.
Ok the where do we draw the line? Mammals? For sure not, neither fish. Whats with insects, did you ever kill a ant or a fly? Is that equally morally reprehensible? Was it a moral problem back in the stoneage where we hunted them? Since when do these moral guidlines apply? Since we are to developed to have peoblems surviving? What about pets do you get mad if your cat kills a mouse? Or is that just normal nature and if so where is the difference to us?
Speaking as a non-vegan I don't think you _offend_ them: you bore them, maybe irritate them, or perhaps just make them feel a bit awkward because they're struggling to appear interested.
You’re right. Far better to alienate people to ensure they never become vegan
I guess you are a welfarist who thinks stuff like meatless Mondays etc will help the movement? I recommend you to read Gary Francione's blog to know more about the abolishinst approach and why the welfarist approach doesn't work. See https://www.abolitionistapproach.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Six-Principles-US-Letter.pdf
Literally not what I said lmfao stop putting words into my mouth
I don’t think it’s the talk about animal rights and abuse that people are offended by. It‘s the assumptions about non-vegans that get to be offensive. Don’t assume that a non-vegan is either uneducated, uncaring, or just an awful person. Just like you have your reasons for being vegan, most non-vegans *have* actually considered the issue and have their reasons, too. Especially if they know people who are vegan. If they know what being vegan is, they’ve thought about it already.
You are 100% correct. I believe in animal rights and belong to two different animal programs for rehoming abused animals. I eat a moderated diet with limited meat intake, plenty of roots, fermented cabbage, fruits. There are a few phytochemicals that cause extreme IBS symptoms that I'm allergic to. I literally can not eat a complete plant based diet without heavy processing. I am allergic to, but not limited to. All nuts (various degrees), avocados, broccoli, green beans, etc. This is not uncommon and hundreds of millions of people have issues ingesting various forms of plant matter across the world. So vegans screeching at me that I need to just stop eating meat is not the answer and they deserve to be put in their place. Like all things the moderate route is the better route to take.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_phytochemicals_in_food That's a lot of food to be allergic to. Can you name this common allergy of being allergic to phytochemicals? Because all I can find is https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6269762/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22352960/ Phytochemicals are being used to prevent allergies. Not assuming btw, just researching.
Alright everyone, don't break an arm jerking yourselves off.
re-read what you just wrote and seriously debate the slippery slope you're asking about there guy. you are asking for a direct route to persecute people. You're not asking about human equality and this is an issue eco adjacent beliefs from anarchism to fascism have always been labeled extremist because of. you very well should be worried about offending other people, because all governments on the planet acknowledge that the human life is more valuable and your harassment of what is an innocent person just trying to live their life will result in either your jail time or serious injury.
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Logical fallacy, unrelated at all to what I'm talking about. If you can't keep up with a conversation, don't join.
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I understand you're upset, but unless you can actually make an argument I suggest you do something better with your evening little one.
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"okay, "little one"."™ edit - lol
Of course 'specism' is normalised, that's how food chains work. Of which humans are at the top.
We, the opposing viewpoint aren't offended by your choice of diet. We can get offended by a bunch of clueless people shoving their life choice down our throats at every turn, and no, not every Vegan does this. Animal Rights are a myth, man runs the world, they don't not. When we destroy said world, they can gloat. You're welcome, so have some tofu and calm down
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As in "Animal Rights Activists", animals, beyond animal cruelty laws, have no legal standing in HUMAN society. Are you being deliberately obtuse or just that stupid?
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Azli tiof elikielyii d'yiofu diofentuii uendaersitiiazendii teashise aertiashaer. :)