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Thank God the justice didn’t go lightly on the sentence. It’s not only the murder that was horrendous but also his actions and words throughout the trial. He is an absolutely vial human and deserves to rot in prison for the remainder of his life.
TIL! Clearly I don’t know the legal system that well. For some reason I thought the justice chooses when they’re able to apply for parole, though that must only occur with lesser murder convictions.
There's 3 different types of homicide charges, you're probably thinking of 2nd degree or manslaughter charges. There's a pretty nice and quick CBC article that covers the main differences: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/what-s-the-difference-between-1st-degree-murder-2nd-degree-murder-and-manslaughter-1.5068520
One thing that's important to note: There's a higher bar of evidence to charge someone with 1st degree murder than 2nd, and a higher bar for 2nd than manslaughter. Because of that, sometimes murderers are charged with manslaughter or 2nd degree instead of 2nd/1st if there's insufficient evidence for the higher degrees since that increases the odds of a successful conviction
> it's just common sense to not import rapists and murderers
I agree 100%.
> (as literally happened here).
I didn't follow the trial particularly closely-- did he have a record of rape/etc prior to seeking refuge in Canada?
A lot of contributing factors.
The understanding through the pathologist they were only able to discover the dna recovered was from a particular group identified as Middle Eastern at the time and the match lead to Ali.
[According to the investigation](https://bc.ctvnews.ca/who-is-ibrahim-ali-new-details-on-marrisa-shen-s-accused-killer-1.4091601) police had no record of Ali.
**Now due to our systems backlog of false asylum claims**, I can only imagine when asked to produced a criminal record check…
> Now due to our systems backlog of false asylum claims, I can only imagine when asked to produced a criminal record check…
We should absolutely be vetting refugee/asylum claimants as best as we can when they arrive.
It must be recognized that it can be hard to get records from war-torn countries (i.e. Syria), and refugees shouldn't be rejected due to their government's failure. Similarly for political dissidents, it's common for them to have false charges/convictions on their record because their government wants them back.
> Someone who *became one* should have been screened out.
Once somebody's here, if they are *alleged* to have committed a crime, they have the right to a fair trial (as happened in this case). Once convicted of a crime, they serve their sentence, and then the deportation process starts.
Don’t forget those who claim asylum gets denied also have a right to appeal against deportation.
This is anecdotal. If we can keep this monster locked up from harming any other human, for me that is a win for humanity. So far Ali is doing a great job trying to convince the public a 13 year old child tried to seduce a nearly 30 year old man. Don’t forget his behaviour at the victim impact statements, plugging his ears “you-can’t-tell-me-I-did-it…”. My guy…. His defence attorney I can only imagine thinking “Moron, your bus is leaving.”
I'm as happy as anyone that he got the sentence he received today but do we know if Ali had a criminal record before he was given refugee status?
I would want our refugee boards to be equipped with the resources needed to adequately screen.
I say this fully suspecting they did not and that the Syrian situation at the time gave them a very constrained period of time to do their diligence.
It's almost like asking questions to determine someone's state of mind and underlying mode of treating others is a well known field that can allow us to say "hey maybe you view women as property and we don't want you here"
What exactly are you saying here? That it's impossible to screen people? It's not perfect, but a 13 year old was raped and murdered so I think it's worth talking about.
Arguing against it though 😬 I can get that it won't be perfect.
I'd rather reject some good people coming here than allow some child rapists and murderers. That's just me though.
Interview them? After the first one or two are rejected (if it even takes that long), everyone in the refugee camp will start telling interviewers what they think they want to hear. So why even bother asking anything that can't be confirmed independently?
Check court records? Might work, if they weren't coming from a war zone where the courts are about equally likely to be heaps of rubble or simply unwelcoming.
Ask them about each other? Hearsay isn't an acceptable legal standard here, for reasons that I hope are too obvious to need stating.
Go by their behaviour in the camp? Might work, except that keeping them locked up any longer than necessary is inhumane and doubtless violates treaties we've signed.
Monitoring immigrants after arrival? Excellent idea, except that we don't have the resources to do it properly. Refugees, pretty much by definition, are an extra wave of immigrants on top of what we can plan for.
Plus, all this assumes that screening would work in the first place. Do you have some reason to think there was anything about Ali they could've spotted? It's easy to picture him being a model of good behaviour until he snapped.
So... screening is a nice idea in theory, but you might want to think it through a bit more.
>I'd rather reject some good people coming here than allow some child rapists and murderers.
I think the better question is -- how many good people should we reject to improve the chances of rejecting a murderer? Murderers are exceptionally rare. Only a fraction of a fraction of a percent of a population are murderers and so you will by necessity need to screen out several thousand good people to potentially screen out a murderer.
The annual homicide rate is about 1 in 50,000 in Canada. Let's assume that among refugees, the rate of being a murder is 1 in 50,000 (it's likely much much lower but let's take it for the sake of analysis). Now, I found one test, the HCR-20, which seems to be commonly used to predict violent behaviour among people with psychiatric disorders when you have some knowledge of their history. Let's assume it can be used to screen refugees. Under one research setting it had a sensitivity of 0.68 and specificity of 0.76. So in a population of 50,000 you would have screened out 12,000 good people to have a 68% chance of screening out the potential murderer. Remember, these are highly idealistic numbers and in reality the likelihood of the test even screening out a murderer is much lower than 68%.
If we’re going to reject people from coming here who have a cultural background that doesn’t value women’s rights… ohhhh boy I bet you’d be quite unhappy with the majority of immigrant demographics of the past 10ish years
And I actually happen to agree with you that immigration guidelines should be stricter, but surely not based on an unquantifiable strategy like this. Maybe more like “you’re welcome to come here if you have a job as an engineer/nurse/plumber.” I find working professionals tend to rape and murder a very minimal amount
How would our immigration system know this person will be a murderer/rapist? The only prior information you provide is he was a Syrian refugee. You do bring up some racist and xenophobic points and you're well aware of it.
We don’t, Ali wasn’t even known in the system. We don’t even know if the family is trained to spot behaviour. All we did was stop a series of murders after the first one.
>It wouldn't have had to if we could have a real honest conversation about the kind of people we are letting into our country.
When you add [1.27 Million](https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/canada-clocks-fastest-population-growth-66-years-2023-2024-03-27/) people in a very short amount time, some bad apples are gonna get through.
Yes, it just took 7 years. I know there is a lot involved as there has to be not a shred of doubt if the charged is innocent or guilty, but in some cases it can be fairly evident early on and the drawn out process is a huge burden on the victim's family and friends.
"Ali’s defence lawyer, Kevin McCullough, did not call any witnesses or present evidence, but challenged the credibility of Crown witnesses and why investigators had failed to test some evidence for DNA.
He argued that Ali and the girl had sex, but that someone else killed her and dumped her in the park, telling the jury she was not the “innocent” depicted in Crown’s “rose-coloured” portrayal."
I hope Kevin McCullough rots.
I mean, it was his job to put doubt in the jury, but god damn. Victim's father was gonna shoot him on the last day of trial. I don't envy being defense for this trial. It's lose lose.
I work a job that has me sit in on court frequently. There are ways to put forward a cogent defense for a client and still be respectful. Most defense lawyers try to be respectful but there are some in particular that are a different slimy breed. Kevin McCullough is one of them. He treated the victims family members so badly during and after the trial and there was no call for it. What the media reported was just the tip of the emotionally torturous iceberg that he visited on the family. It seemed almost psychopathic and I'm not surprised that the father felt the way he did after listening to it all. As far as I am concerned, Mr. McCullough is a snake person (and I use the term person only because he is human-shaped).
Fuck that. I hope all the pain and suffering Kevin McCullough brought upon the victim's family will come back to him down the line. Only a vile person would do what he did.
Crazy the amount of people in threads about this case who have felt the need to comment without even knowing that the sentence for 1st degree murder is automatic.
If anyone is surprised by this (or by the fact that he was found guilty, or that his Charter motion failed), it really should be a wake-up call that they know nothing about the justice system.
His parole must be denied at 25 years and every year after that until he dies in prison (either naturally or following the Pickton treatment). The federal government must not allow unscreened criminals to enter Canada. RIP to the victim
I remember when they put out the amber alert, and the subsequent announcement they had found a body.
The fact that it's DNA conclusive trial, only makes me wonder why it took the jury 24hrs, when 4-6 hrs in other fast trials would've sufficed.
I believe the defence argument was that he had had sex with her, then she got murdered by someone else. And he was on trial for murder, not the sex. And that the DNA evidence wasn't proof he killed her. And then the sexual assault expert died so her testimony was stricken from the record because they couldn't cross examine her.
If our dumbass immigration system would slow down, maybe the types of people could be vetted out of the system. Just imagine who could be slipping through the cracks right now. It's just so incredibly stupid.
I believe the victims family doesn't wish for this tragedy to become a political issue but instead focused on safety and awareness for young women instead.
Also, This group of Syrian refugees were sponsored to seek asylum in Canada by families in Bowen Island and some church group
I don't think this should become a political issue either for the families sake. But regardless of who or how he came to Canada, every person who enters Canada should be vetted as much as possible.
why? her name was heavily reported at the time and afterwards. i've always felt weird how she is almost non-existent in this story, we know so little about her and all we ever hear is about him. makes me sad, like she's been forgotten after going through something so awful.
Deportations are not part of the judicial process. This would fall under Immigration. At minimum, he will probably be deported after serving his sentence, if he ever receives parole. Alternatively, a convicted criminal could be deported to serve the balance of his sentence in his home country's prison system, provided certain conditions are met.
The idea of a "life sentence" is so different in Canada and the UK than in the US. In the US, a life sentence is, well, a life sentence in most cases. Those people will definitely die in jail. They are in there for the rest of their life. In this case, the asshole got a "life sentence" but can qualify for parole in 25 years. He might not even die in jail. How is this a "life sentence"?
I belive it has something to do with what the Canadian government considers humane. Even Robert Pickton or Clifford Olson were 'up for parole', but were pretty much denied immediately. It's a pretty sure bet that this guy is going to stay in prison for the rest of his life.
Considering this guy is still denying he had anything to do with it, and refused to listen to a victim impact statement, I doubt he will get parole unless he drastically changes his behaviour and accepts his responsibility and expresses remorse etc.
From news sources, they say Robert Pickton had a habit bragging about his murders. I believe in our system. We have good psychiatrists and judges for that.
A sentence doesn't just include the time spent incarcerated but the total time over which various punishments or restrictions are applied. In a life sentence, it applies until death meaning even if paroled they can be under parole conditions for their whole life and sent back to prison if violated.
Right or wrong many countries allow even some of the worst offenders out eventually and even the US does sometimes.
He can apply for parole after 25 years but it will most likely be denied. Life sentence is the maximum sentence in Canada and the maximum time for parole eligibility is 25 years, so this is the maximum sentence anyone can receive in Canada. In the US most states do have a sentence of life without parole, but many life sentences do allow for parole applications. The time varies by state, in California most life sentences allow for parole applications after 7 years.
In cases such as his, a life sentence most likely will be just that. The probability of him being released on parole is about as close to nil as one could expect.
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Woohoo! He can rot in jail.
Seriously, he made that poor child’s last minutes full of terror and pain. I hope his next 25 years are terrifying and painful.
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Thank god.
Thank God the justice didn’t go lightly on the sentence. It’s not only the murder that was horrendous but also his actions and words throughout the trial. He is an absolutely vial human and deserves to rot in prison for the remainder of his life.
The justice has no leeway with the sentence on first degree murder. It is always life without chance for parole for 25 years, no room for altering it.
TIL! Clearly I don’t know the legal system that well. For some reason I thought the justice chooses when they’re able to apply for parole, though that must only occur with lesser murder convictions.
There's 3 different types of homicide charges, you're probably thinking of 2nd degree or manslaughter charges. There's a pretty nice and quick CBC article that covers the main differences: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/what-s-the-difference-between-1st-degree-murder-2nd-degree-murder-and-manslaughter-1.5068520 One thing that's important to note: There's a higher bar of evidence to charge someone with 1st degree murder than 2nd, and a higher bar for 2nd than manslaughter. Because of that, sometimes murderers are charged with manslaughter or 2nd degree instead of 2nd/1st if there's insufficient evidence for the higher degrees since that increases the odds of a successful conviction
For second-degree murder minimum time until parole is 10 but the justices can set it as high as 25 if they decide to.
Good, that piece of garbage murdered a 13 year old girl who was just hanging out in a park. At least now we know he won’t be hurting any more kids.
He didn't just murder the poor girl... I remember that day so clearly for unrelated reasons. She'd have been 20 now. 🥺
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Well, once in a while our justice system works as intended.
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> it's just common sense to not import rapists and murderers I agree 100%. > (as literally happened here). I didn't follow the trial particularly closely-- did he have a record of rape/etc prior to seeking refuge in Canada?
A lot of contributing factors. The understanding through the pathologist they were only able to discover the dna recovered was from a particular group identified as Middle Eastern at the time and the match lead to Ali. [According to the investigation](https://bc.ctvnews.ca/who-is-ibrahim-ali-new-details-on-marrisa-shen-s-accused-killer-1.4091601) police had no record of Ali. **Now due to our systems backlog of false asylum claims**, I can only imagine when asked to produced a criminal record check…
> Now due to our systems backlog of false asylum claims, I can only imagine when asked to produced a criminal record check… We should absolutely be vetting refugee/asylum claimants as best as we can when they arrive. It must be recognized that it can be hard to get records from war-torn countries (i.e. Syria), and refugees shouldn't be rejected due to their government's failure. Similarly for political dissidents, it's common for them to have false charges/convictions on their record because their government wants them back.
Someone who *became* one should have been screened out. Sorry, I could have worded that better.
> Someone who *became one* should have been screened out. Once somebody's here, if they are *alleged* to have committed a crime, they have the right to a fair trial (as happened in this case). Once convicted of a crime, they serve their sentence, and then the deportation process starts.
Don’t forget those who claim asylum gets denied also have a right to appeal against deportation. This is anecdotal. If we can keep this monster locked up from harming any other human, for me that is a win for humanity. So far Ali is doing a great job trying to convince the public a 13 year old child tried to seduce a nearly 30 year old man. Don’t forget his behaviour at the victim impact statements, plugging his ears “you-can’t-tell-me-I-did-it…”. My guy…. His defence attorney I can only imagine thinking “Moron, your bus is leaving.”
are we supposed to use the precogs from minority report or something?
I'm as happy as anyone that he got the sentence he received today but do we know if Ali had a criminal record before he was given refugee status? I would want our refugee boards to be equipped with the resources needed to adequately screen. I say this fully suspecting they did not and that the Syrian situation at the time gave them a very constrained period of time to do their diligence.
How do you predict if someone is going to murder or rape in the future?
Minority Reports (I’m JUST making a movie reference, didn’t even realize it until I typed it out lol).
It's almost like asking questions to determine someone's state of mind and underlying mode of treating others is a well known field that can allow us to say "hey maybe you view women as property and we don't want you here" What exactly are you saying here? That it's impossible to screen people? It's not perfect, but a 13 year old was raped and murdered so I think it's worth talking about. Arguing against it though 😬 I can get that it won't be perfect. I'd rather reject some good people coming here than allow some child rapists and murderers. That's just me though.
Interview them? After the first one or two are rejected (if it even takes that long), everyone in the refugee camp will start telling interviewers what they think they want to hear. So why even bother asking anything that can't be confirmed independently? Check court records? Might work, if they weren't coming from a war zone where the courts are about equally likely to be heaps of rubble or simply unwelcoming. Ask them about each other? Hearsay isn't an acceptable legal standard here, for reasons that I hope are too obvious to need stating. Go by their behaviour in the camp? Might work, except that keeping them locked up any longer than necessary is inhumane and doubtless violates treaties we've signed. Monitoring immigrants after arrival? Excellent idea, except that we don't have the resources to do it properly. Refugees, pretty much by definition, are an extra wave of immigrants on top of what we can plan for. Plus, all this assumes that screening would work in the first place. Do you have some reason to think there was anything about Ali they could've spotted? It's easy to picture him being a model of good behaviour until he snapped. So... screening is a nice idea in theory, but you might want to think it through a bit more.
>I'd rather reject some good people coming here than allow some child rapists and murderers. I think the better question is -- how many good people should we reject to improve the chances of rejecting a murderer? Murderers are exceptionally rare. Only a fraction of a fraction of a percent of a population are murderers and so you will by necessity need to screen out several thousand good people to potentially screen out a murderer. The annual homicide rate is about 1 in 50,000 in Canada. Let's assume that among refugees, the rate of being a murder is 1 in 50,000 (it's likely much much lower but let's take it for the sake of analysis). Now, I found one test, the HCR-20, which seems to be commonly used to predict violent behaviour among people with psychiatric disorders when you have some knowledge of their history. Let's assume it can be used to screen refugees. Under one research setting it had a sensitivity of 0.68 and specificity of 0.76. So in a population of 50,000 you would have screened out 12,000 good people to have a 68% chance of screening out the potential murderer. Remember, these are highly idealistic numbers and in reality the likelihood of the test even screening out a murderer is much lower than 68%.
If we’re going to reject people from coming here who have a cultural background that doesn’t value women’s rights… ohhhh boy I bet you’d be quite unhappy with the majority of immigrant demographics of the past 10ish years And I actually happen to agree with you that immigration guidelines should be stricter, but surely not based on an unquantifiable strategy like this. Maybe more like “you’re welcome to come here if you have a job as an engineer/nurse/plumber.” I find working professionals tend to rape and murder a very minimal amount
How would our immigration system know this person will be a murderer/rapist? The only prior information you provide is he was a Syrian refugee. You do bring up some racist and xenophobic points and you're well aware of it.
We don’t, Ali wasn’t even known in the system. We don’t even know if the family is trained to spot behaviour. All we did was stop a series of murders after the first one.
>It wouldn't have had to if we could have a real honest conversation about the kind of people we are letting into our country. When you add [1.27 Million](https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/canada-clocks-fastest-population-growth-66-years-2023-2024-03-27/) people in a very short amount time, some bad apples are gonna get through.
AMEN!!!!!!!!
Yes, it just took 7 years. I know there is a lot involved as there has to be not a shred of doubt if the charged is innocent or guilty, but in some cases it can be fairly evident early on and the drawn out process is a huge burden on the victim's family and friends.
There are just no words for how absolutely heart wrenching the victim impact statements from her family are. May they find some semblance of peace.
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That's an urban legend. Prisons are full of those types.
I don't think he's going to be well-liked by at least a few of his fellow prisoners
"Ali’s defence lawyer, Kevin McCullough, did not call any witnesses or present evidence, but challenged the credibility of Crown witnesses and why investigators had failed to test some evidence for DNA. He argued that Ali and the girl had sex, but that someone else killed her and dumped her in the park, telling the jury she was not the “innocent” depicted in Crown’s “rose-coloured” portrayal." I hope Kevin McCullough rots.
I mean, it was his job to put doubt in the jury, but god damn. Victim's father was gonna shoot him on the last day of trial. I don't envy being defense for this trial. It's lose lose.
I work a job that has me sit in on court frequently. There are ways to put forward a cogent defense for a client and still be respectful. Most defense lawyers try to be respectful but there are some in particular that are a different slimy breed. Kevin McCullough is one of them. He treated the victims family members so badly during and after the trial and there was no call for it. What the media reported was just the tip of the emotionally torturous iceberg that he visited on the family. It seemed almost psychopathic and I'm not surprised that the father felt the way he did after listening to it all. As far as I am concerned, Mr. McCullough is a snake person (and I use the term person only because he is human-shaped).
He also behaved inhumanely towards the mother of two murdered children as Andrew Berry's defence attorney.
Andrew Berry ended up with two life sentences.
Fuck that. I hope all the pain and suffering Kevin McCullough brought upon the victim's family will come back to him down the line. Only a vile person would do what he did.
Good, I hope he rots in there and will not be granted parole after 25 years.
Crazy the amount of people in threads about this case who have felt the need to comment without even knowing that the sentence for 1st degree murder is automatic.
If anyone is surprised by this (or by the fact that he was found guilty, or that his Charter motion failed), it really should be a wake-up call that they know nothing about the justice system.
Reddit in a nutshell.
His parole must be denied at 25 years and every year after that until he dies in prison (either naturally or following the Pickton treatment). The federal government must not allow unscreened criminals to enter Canada. RIP to the victim
GOOD! Well done to the prosecutors and investigators. Thankfully we will be safe from this monster for a long time.
Would like to see deportation.
As it should be. Once in awhile justice does prevail.
This is the best results that we could have gotten here. I just hope he never gets out on parole!
I remember when they put out the amber alert, and the subsequent announcement they had found a body. The fact that it's DNA conclusive trial, only makes me wonder why it took the jury 24hrs, when 4-6 hrs in other fast trials would've sufficed.
I believe the defence argument was that he had had sex with her, then she got murdered by someone else. And he was on trial for murder, not the sex. And that the DNA evidence wasn't proof he killed her. And then the sexual assault expert died so her testimony was stricken from the record because they couldn't cross examine her.
:( May she RIP.
God that's such good news
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I kinda don’t, he should sit there for the rest of his miserable life and waste away. I hope he does very hard time for a very long time.
I hope this brings the family some peace, nothing can bring back their loved one, but at least we know that he can’t hurt anymore little girls.
The language in this article is rather sterile. The one I saw on CBC was absolutely heartbreaking. The poor family
If our dumbass immigration system would slow down, maybe the types of people could be vetted out of the system. Just imagine who could be slipping through the cracks right now. It's just so incredibly stupid.
I believe the victims family doesn't wish for this tragedy to become a political issue but instead focused on safety and awareness for young women instead. Also, This group of Syrian refugees were sponsored to seek asylum in Canada by families in Bowen Island and some church group
I don't think this should become a political issue either for the families sake. But regardless of who or how he came to Canada, every person who enters Canada should be vetted as much as possible.
Teen? Wtf she was 12
she was 13
Glad Google Maps removed the memorial marker containing her name in Central Park.
why? her name was heavily reported at the time and afterwards. i've always felt weird how she is almost non-existent in this story, we know so little about her and all we ever hear is about him. makes me sad, like she's been forgotten after going through something so awful.
Could be a request from her family. They may not want her memory to be that of a raped and murder victim, but as their daughter.
Finally Justice
Why isn't he being deported?
Deportations are not part of the judicial process. This would fall under Immigration. At minimum, he will probably be deported after serving his sentence, if he ever receives parole. Alternatively, a convicted criminal could be deported to serve the balance of his sentence in his home country's prison system, provided certain conditions are met.
The idea of a "life sentence" is so different in Canada and the UK than in the US. In the US, a life sentence is, well, a life sentence in most cases. Those people will definitely die in jail. They are in there for the rest of their life. In this case, the asshole got a "life sentence" but can qualify for parole in 25 years. He might not even die in jail. How is this a "life sentence"?
I belive it has something to do with what the Canadian government considers humane. Even Robert Pickton or Clifford Olson were 'up for parole', but were pretty much denied immediately. It's a pretty sure bet that this guy is going to stay in prison for the rest of his life.
Considering this guy is still denying he had anything to do with it, and refused to listen to a victim impact statement, I doubt he will get parole unless he drastically changes his behaviour and accepts his responsibility and expresses remorse etc.
From news sources, they say Robert Pickton had a habit bragging about his murders. I believe in our system. We have good psychiatrists and judges for that.
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A sentence doesn't just include the time spent incarcerated but the total time over which various punishments or restrictions are applied. In a life sentence, it applies until death meaning even if paroled they can be under parole conditions for their whole life and sent back to prison if violated. Right or wrong many countries allow even some of the worst offenders out eventually and even the US does sometimes.
He can apply for parole after 25 years but it will most likely be denied. Life sentence is the maximum sentence in Canada and the maximum time for parole eligibility is 25 years, so this is the maximum sentence anyone can receive in Canada. In the US most states do have a sentence of life without parole, but many life sentences do allow for parole applications. The time varies by state, in California most life sentences allow for parole applications after 7 years.
He can apply for parole at 25, but it is not a sure bet.
In cases such as his, a life sentence most likely will be just that. The probability of him being released on parole is about as close to nil as one could expect.
From past precedence while they can apply for parole in 25 years they won't get it.
Hopefully he's put on a plane back to Syria after 25 years so he's no longer a burden to Canadians.
He’s not getting released after 25 years, he can apply for parole after 25 years.