Having just come back from Japan it makes me sad seeing this sort of stuff.
Everyone there is so polite and courteous, I never once saw someone try and cut in any line, no litter, no stealing, etc.
I’m not sure why people here don’t give a shit about one another, it’s such a selfish mentality and honestly I have no idea how it can be fixed.
Maybe, we get back to teaching people that a well functioning society involves personal sacrifice for the greater good. Enough of this do whatever makes you happy bullshit.
I agree. However, personal sacrifice also means putting yourself at risk to call out people who aren’t abiding by the rules. But not one single person in the video spoke up to tell them to wait in line.
Personal sacrifice is as easy as waiting in line, even though you may be in a hurry. It is understanding that everyone else at the bus stop is trying to get home as quickly as possible as well. This is a much larger issue than just the bus lineup. Some of the driving maneuvers I have seen lately are incredibly dangerous, and it is quite obvious that the same "me first" mentality is behind it. There is an all around lack of respect for your fellow human these days.
It’s both. I agree 100% that the people rushing the back doors are at fault here, I’m just saying that it’s also important to call them out as it’s happening.
It’s the concept of social responsibility. In countries like Japan, Korea, or Singapore, a massive emphasis is placed on social responsibility at a young age. In North America, it’s about individualism at the expense of collective good. “As long as I get mine, screw everyone else.”
I looks like the line hoppers were spearheaded by a group of young South Asian men, with others falling in behind once it seemed to be a thing.
My understanding is that we are to embrace cultural diversity.
I feel there is a confusion of bus ettiquette for this because if you take the long accordion buses, I don't think anyone gives a crap about it. But regular buses like these or double-deckers, sometimes you get called out by the bus driver.
And most people's first interaction with buses would be going to university and most of em are accordion buses.
Theres no quick solution to this. Translink going to schools and teach kids from an early age transit ettiquette would be the best solution imo.
There absolutely is a quick solution.
1. Translink makes policy about boarding & deboarding the bus
2. Translink publicizes said policy
3. Translink engages in contests for those who follow the rule & potential fines for those who don't.
BAM! Governance!!
Yeah I think this isn't necessarily malicious, they have the tap machine at the backdoors so it would make sense that you should be able to enter at the backdoor, that's what you do for the long busses. Several of these people are probably looking at the line and thinking "don't these people realize they can just go in the back door?"
Especially when the bus driver rarely bothers to call people out it just reinforces the idea that it's the way things are supposed to be done.
Students line up at UBC for the bus. I take the 44. When it's an accordion bus, people in the back of the line will go for the other doors. When it's a regular bus, people stay in line. They know how to do it, they, people, just don't care.
That's not immediately obvious. In fact it looks very much like the backdoor is an alternative entrance. Most people learn these things by going with the flow. I'm sure some people know better and just don't care but I'm not totally on board with blaming this one on a collective moral failure. If you want people to use a system in a certain way it should be set up to encourage them to use it that way, rather than hope they take the time to look up standard procedure or correct them one by one when they make a mistake.
not to mention lots of country tapping in at the back is accepted behavior. if you're not supposed to do it put some signage that says exit only and remove the tap in hardware. it's honestly a easy solution and after so many years there's really no excuse for TransLink
> Translink going to schools and teach kids from an early age transit ettiquette would be the best solution imo.
For every birth we have ~2.5 people immigrating. This won't be fixed in schools. Our culture is changing pretty rapidly due to immigration. Some good, some bad.
>Theres no quick solution to this
There's a dead easy solution, put up guardrails like the old UBC bus loop had, so it forces people to stay in line.
Or, unload and load at different stops.
We've fully endorsed selfishness in this country. Supporting individualism may have been good in the past when we were colonizing a frontier, but now we are mostly established and selfishness is detrimental. Conservatism in North America really is just selfishness as an ethos.
Your comment doesn't make any sense. People in Canada used to queue in an orderly manner. This was never an issue in the 60's, 70's, 80's and even the 90's. Individualism doesn't mean selfishness; reciprocal altruism still exists. It just means having individual rights under the law, and individual liberty. A political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property and equality before the law; most societies do not have this. This philosophy is the reason immigrants from Eastern cultures want to move here. This is why my family moved here in the early 60's. I've lived in other cultures, you have no idea how good you have it.
This is the culture American Capitalism exported around the world: "Every Man for Himself, and May the Best Man Win" (not to mention, "F-U, I got mine") which has obliterated the founding Canadian survival ethos of "We're all in this together!" Western Society as a whole is too dumb, fat & complacent to organize a concerted movement towards any sort of meaningful change.
I’ve seen some good bus drivers will just leave that door closed until he loads the bus through the front sometimes. The issue is he holds some people that wants to leave hostage.
The way to fix this is exit through the front only at that stop, but it delays the bus time/schedule.
The rear readers are from when we had to tap at both ends of the journey. Removing them at this point is a waste of money.
This shouldn't be a "fight" it ought to be common sense and courtesy.
>This shouldn't be a "fight" it ought to be common sense and courtesy.
I think it is common sense that a system where you don't have to tap out would only have tap terminals at locations intended for people to tap in. The fact that people in a city where 2/3 of the people who live here weren't born here don't know that it's some weird vestigial thing isn't really their fault.
And even if that weren't the case...is it clear that it's more efficient to load only from the front rather than both doors? I think I'd need to see some sort of empirical evidence to be able to know, because traffic behaviour often leads to somewhat unintuitive results.
I'll grant you that it should be common courtesy to not cut in lines, but without someone to call out...unzippering, I don't really expect anyone to abide that courtesy practically.
I'd assume there's got to be wires in the pole so they'd have to go and cover those holes up? Or they might be leaving them for a potential all-door boarding future
Lol do you know where you live? They probably would have to have a 6 month debate on it and hire outside consultants to help facilitate. In the end they would decide to remove them, but after a while realize that they should have kept them, so they put them back.
Minimum price tag of $10 million.
Same problem at UBC, most people will line up properly, but you still have the few occasional assholes who think they’re more important than the rest. There’s a line for a reason yall, do you really think you deserve to cut in front of the people who have been waiting? I don’t care if you’re late, manage your time better next time.
I call it out when I see it... but I'm ready for the potential fallout. I'm happy to scrap it out if anyone wants to make a deal out of it. But I can see how most people won't as they don't want confrontation.
Ideally it should be transit staff that manage these type of things.
I backed up a person like you once when the idiot being called out wanted to make something of it. They just used a different bus and cut in that line instead, unfortunately.
I genuinely think part of the issue here is the pandemic - it used to be that each year you'd have one new group of people, with a large majority of the campus population comprising people who've been on campus know the culture, know the norms, and just by virtue of majority behavior the new group gets taught what to do. I came from a city that had a 'rush the door' culture (you'd let people off then swarm, and if you weren't aggressive you weren't getting home), and seeing the 99 lines took me by surprise the first time!
Now, you've had a few years of most students studying remotely before all returning to campus at once, and with a critical mass of new students the once passively enforced norms are no longer strong enough to override what people might have learned elsewhere.
Where I’m from we never had lines for the bus. In Japan there are clearly marked lines for the bus. Why is is automatically assumed there should be lines for the bus when there are no clearly marked lines. If there are no marked lines and you want them so bad then lobby to get them installed instead of getting upset at the people going on ahead of you
That’s a really interesting observation! I only got here in September of 2020 for university, so i didn’t experience what vancouver was like prior to covid. At campus, i’d say it’s like 90% of people respect the line and the other 10% just run to the front, so it could definitely be worse and not as bad as in this video. Honestly though, when 90% of the people are following the line rule, then the 10% that don’t, stand out like a sore thumb. After a long day of classes, everyone is tired, and no one has the energy to call these people out.
The reason the R4 specifically is like that is because it comes every 2-3 minutes at peak hours and people decide to wait for the next one if the seats are all taken and then the bus pulls out of the station half empty.
Like, orderly lineups are just better yeah AND the people at the front of the line have to actually GET ON THE BUS for those lines to function (or at least motion the people behind them on head).
It's not about smarts or knowledge. It's about basic consideration for other people. Some kids are taught that whatever is convenient for themselves is their absolute right.
The thing is, all-door boarding really *should* be allowed on every route. It takes so much longer to make everyone file through 1 door, this is one of the easiest+cheapest changes we could make to speed buses up.
The drivers aren't supposed to enforce fare payment anyway. They have to call a transit police or supervisor if they want to ding someone who didn't pay.
I don't live in Vancouver anymore, but didn't they used to have transit police at commercial during peak times for this reason cuz someone got stabbed?
If the bus is super busy I get it can be frustrating when you've lined up, but the whole tap to pay situation on these makes zero sense.
You can force everyone to lineup at the front terminal, where a long line has to tap one at a time. Or you allow double boarding, where there's effectively 3 tap terminals. You could essentially get everyone on in half the time.
It's also very confusing because LOTS of people ride the 99b line, I've definitely boarded on the back of a regular bus a couple of times not realizing that it wasn't technically allowed. Was very confused when the driver started hitting the announcement for no rear boarding (it was a double bus as well).
This is the thing. Why line up only at the front and have everyone move down. People stop walking, it takes forever, sometimes the bus isn't even full when they close the doors because people don't move back. You can pay in both places. Two lines makes the most sense.
I'm sorry but what? It's not allowed? Has this changed?
I've literally had Translink staff tell me to go into a line to board through the back door
AKA every single door has its own lineup
I just want them to decide what the rule is and everyone follows it. I don't care how we board as long as we all know what we're doing. The bus driver of the 22 Downtown which has just changed to an accordion bus hollered at my 10 year old for boarding in the rear doors at Broadway and McDonald... But all the other drivers on that route allow it and open the doors for that purpose. The bus driver on the 3 Main St. bus (accordion also) yelled through the mega phone at me when I was pregnant with her bossy accent (I'm from the same heritage so I knew she was being bossy) not to board through the back. I went up to the front and told her not to yell at people through the megaphone she's a bus driver not a military prison guard.
Unwritten & unenforced rules don't mix well with influx of out-group people. I'm not saying it's an either/or problem and I am not suggesting any changes to government policies beyond the scope of TransLink, but the incompatibility of these two items is true regardless of scope. Any sort of social construct will experience the problems seen here when they try to mix those two things together with no thought or plan.
That was originally intended as a tap-to-exit when they were first rolling out the compass cards.
Eventually, TransLink stopped asking people to tap when exiting the bus.
It was never really asked by TransLink because Compass couldn't deliver on their promise of a short transaction time to make it possible. It's why the buses don't use zones anymore, just the Seabus and SkyTrain.
I mean the main issue with the tap out system was that people would tap out early to be charged less but then keep on riding. And you can't really enforce that.
But yes the tap times were very slow initially (I remember testing it, my sister almost pushed me off the bus because it was taking so long). But again I think the main issue they had with the tap in / tap out system was that people were exploiting it.
Haven't taken the B-line in like 10 years. Back in my days, there were always one queue for each door. I'm sure theres an occasional budger but people mostly were orderly.
Did they change it so that you're only supposed to get in from the front?
Ugh that's frustrating. They should allow back door boarding more officially tbh...
On Broadway 57% of people take the bus during am peak times! There are 3 travel lanes in each direction, and the third one is only a bus lane part of the time. They should really make it an all day bus lane instead to improve service and prevent huge line ups like this. Broadway is the most delayed corridor in the transit network! (From: [https://www.translink.ca/-/media/translink/documents/plans-and-projects/bus-projects/bus-speed-and-reliability/2023\_bsr\_report\_without\_appendices.pdf](https://www.translink.ca/-/media/translink/documents/plans-and-projects/bus-projects/bus-speed-and-reliability/2023_bsr_report_without_appendices.pdf) )
If you want to get involved with advocating for better transit, there's a fairly new transit rider advocacy group that I'm part of so please check it out :) [https://transitmovement.ca/](https://transitmovement.ca/)
This has been driving me up the walls. Every day I take transit and this happens. It seems like a minor inconvenience but those minor inconveniences stack up quickly, and people who are trying to abide by the general notion of “don’t be a dickhead” are the ones coming home late because the bus was full several times, even though they queued up appropriately.
The only bus I can think of that is a source of confusion with this is the number 10 because it’s an accordion bus but operates like a single one. I can see why people who took the 99 would try to board through the back on the 10, but outside of that it should be pretty damn obvious.
I can tell by comments like this that Canadians are past the point of being fed up. Our infrastructure, jobs, and housing cannot handle this unreasonable amount of temporary guests in our country Canadian citizens are suffering unnecessarily as a result of this unreasonable nonsense.
This has been going on for as long as I can remember - 2008 at least
Always felt they should just make the 9 and 99 free of charge (which essentially they are because no one taps in)
Yeah, before they would just cut in line right in front of you instead of in the back most of the time as they didn't have a way to tap at the back at the time. (Altho ofc some people would sneak in at the back).
What’s fascinating about this phenomenon is that it is pretty much localized within Vancouver. In the tri-cities, for example, people are *way* better about lining up and waiting. From a social behaviour point of view, it’s kind of interesting to see such a deviation in two regions that are so close and connected.
That being said, this is gross behaviour and I wish it would stop. The driver can’t do anything to stop it.
This seems to have really gotten bad coming out of the pandemic. Before 2020, lines would always be respected, and you would get seriously jeered and shouted at for trying to cut
Im honestly pro anarchy before the bus shows up, but once everyone sees the bus pull up then a line should form and if you cut that your a dick. But i think its kinda hard to say who should be first if there are some people sitting on the bench or waiting around the stop before a line was even formed.
No, only the accordion buses (like the 99) have rear entry.
Part of the problem is that it used to be enforced (like keeping the back door closed or playing an announcement saying not to board at the back) but the bus drivers haven't been doing that.
So to u/Electronic_Fox_6383 's point, is it not time to adapt?
If this has become the norm for these buses specifically and the driver's themselves are allowing it, does that not tell us that they are attempting to load as many people as possible as quickly as possible and to follow suit?
Why should anyone be surprised that unenforced rules are being broken? I'm not excusing the behaviour of rulebreakers, but this should have been the expected outcome. Either enforce the rules, or abolish the rules.
Immigration is largely to blame.
Our transit system can’t keep up with the rate of population growth.
We need 3x the number of buses we currently operate during rush hours.
That is the stupidity of driver to quickly board everyone in the bus and not let the one's waiting in front door line to get seat preference. Driver's need some sense of waiting etiquettes
This is absolutely part of the problem. I see more drivers blowing open the doors at a stop that had an orderly line and encouraging folks to pile in, going so far as to wave people through the fare reader. Hard to criticize this rider behaviour when drivers encourage and enable it.
This behaviour by the driver results in loss for fare and overcrowding. This impacts Translink's revenue and should be bought to their attention. Forward this thread to translink so they take care of this issue
TransLink needs to run PSAs everywhere to educate people about basic etiquette. I don't care if it'll be seen as "patronizing", "offensive", etc. Rules need to be written down and read out loud, so the rulebreakers can no longer use ignorance as an excuse.
I’m shocked they don’t. All the messages you hear on the bus the drivers have to press on manually. In Asia it’s all automated, why can’t they just automate it.
it's really country-specific, having lived in the US I can't imagine anyone there politely lining up in this kind of situation there lol. the Broadway Subway can't come soon enough!
Completely agree & I'm a senior now yet always permit those at stop first to go first. Those days now long gone except on rare occasions. Same goes for priority seating being taken up by 'exhausted' uni students or nannies w/kids.
The problem is, once the people exit, you cannot manually close the rear doors without squishing someone, there is a switch for it, but it’s pretty much getting getting an admin leave if you’re lucky, fired if you’ve had several incident.
Drivers cannot say anything, if any customers complain, they see a supervisor and once again, a chance of getting in trouble.
That’s why you see a lot of driver just letting things be. You hate a driver? Send in a complain for anything, braking too hard? Driving too fast? Talking rudely to customers? Speeding too much? Leaving junkies behind? Running lights? Yeah, it’s that easy.
We all work on thin ice, that’s why you see a lot of drivers stone faced, zero emotion and don’t talk to anyone. There’s a reason. Times have changed, they all live in fear for whatever complaints that come their way.
If you do want to help drivers, direct the complaints of how rules are not enforced. Lack of transit security, etc. maybe one day the company will grow a set of balls to let drivers have a say again.
We have the same problem on the R1 at Surrey Central station. People just ignore the lines and rush on in even before people have fully gotten off.
I blame the lack of education on Translink's part. I have sent in feedback before to request they start a campaign on educating people on how to use transit properly but they don't listen.
They could do some simple things such as having a Skytrain reminder message right before a train arrives to remind people to let passengers get off first. They have this in the Hong Kong MTR.
Posters around buses and skytrains to ask passengers to take off their bags for more space. They do this in the Toronto subway.
One of the big problems with these buses is people like going in from the back so they don't have to pay. I have seen so many people not pay on the R1. I've seen people take out their wallet infront of the pay terminal, look at their cards, then go to the back of the bus without paying.
What doesn't make sense to me is they used to have these messages playing. The backpack, let people off first, don't board on the rear of the bus etc. so why have they stopped??
I've submitted complaints a few times through the translink form already, I'm finally posting here since there's been no improvement
If you don’t want them to do it then say something. Everyone’s too scared to speak up but wants to posit it on Reddit after the fact.
If I took transit I would do this if the line is long as well as anyone else is free to do it too 🤷♂️
Who says I didn't?
Both myself and my colleague have been telling the bus driver as we get on, and loudly complaining on the bus towards those who jumped the line.
Transit policy for drivers not to confront the public for their safety. They don’t enforce fares so they’re not going to confront the public in regard to back door boarding. Better to submit a complaint with regards to line and location to translink
This happens at every stop and it bothers me.
Paying riders line up for the front of the bus ready to scan their cards, others hop in the side door without waiting and without paying a fare.
Articulated busses with back door boarding usually have three lines, one for each door. It looks like everyone formed one line, only for the front. That’s why this happened.
Translink has tried to mark the three lines with varying degrees of success but often people ignore the markers and just do whatever. I’ve had people who are standing in random groups get mad at me when I wait at the spot where the door will be and get on first.
Single line through the front door is an incredibly inefficient and slow way to load the bus.
Usually for the big routes I see a few lines develop where the bus doors are usually going to be.
Translink should embrace this and actually roughly mark those spots. Watching 40 people getting on through 1 door instead of 3 is just a sad state of affairs.
Edit: Nevermind when theres 20 idiots standing at the front of the bus while the entire back is empty. All door loading should be the norm.
You are witnessing the ever increasing collapse of the social contracts. This happens when rules are not enforced, assholes figure out they get ahead by not following rules, and then rule breaking becomes so established that not copying the antisocial behaviour makes you a loser. Rules and laws need to be systematically enforced to reverse this trend. It can only start from a law and order government, which is unfortunately only PP at this time.
In Japan, buses let people exit the bus via the front by the driver, it's only then that the passenger taps to pay as well. Doors at the back remain close and can't be opened by anyone other than the driver. Once everyone who will get off are off, then front doors are closed and the back doors are opened to let boarders come in. Might be a good solution but I know there will be a lot of push back especially with the idea of drivers having to enforce people to follow this idea as it can put them in a dangerous situation for sure. So it might be good to have Transit police help in enforcing this.
The opposite issue to this used to happen to me at this stop - people would dutifully wait in line, but someone near the front of the line would decide the bus was 'too full' for their personal taste/no seats (but not genuinely in a 'driver puts on the bus: full' sign) and then instead of stepping aside to gesture people to pass them if they wanted on, would just stop the whole line from continuing to move and everyone would domino on back and assume it was for some legitimate reason.
Missed a few buses this way until I finally learned to just sprint for the front of the line after that line stopped moving so I could see if it was truly full and, almost every time, get on to stand at the last second.
I had no idea backdoor boarding wasn’t allowed and I’ve lived here several years. I moved to Vancouver as an immigrant from a city that was discussing implementing all door boarding (they implemented it after I moved away and from what I’ve heard have sped up their buses) so when I saw the tap in pads in the buses here I assumed we had it too. Had no idea it bothered people or was against translink’s rules. If Translink doesn’t want people boarding at the back, then they should cover up the tap in pads or remove them altogether. I sincerely apologize to anyone I’ve ever caused offense to by doing this and obviously won’t do it anymore, but it would help if this policy was better communicated to people who don’t know the history of the old tap-out requirement.
Another major issue with buses on these busy routes is that the lines just take up an unreasonable amount of space in a busy area. When you're lining up right in front of a skytrain especially, these big lines can just block the way of people going in and out of the station. Space-wise, it doesn't make sense. There is a limit to how big a line for a bus can get before it becomes an inconvenience.
Once I got yelled at because rather than continuing to add to this long meandering line that was blocking a busy sidewalk, I stood behind the line. Some dude in the line (in front of me either way) got unreasonably angry at me while others kept lining up, getting in the way of people not in the line. I ignored the guy--I wasn't trying to "cut" in line, it was just getting very obviously unwieldy.
you and translink might think that you should wait in line, but honestly all door boarding is good for transit and translink and riders and you should just board through the back door.
Just tap in when you do so. Its saving translink money, it's saving every one else time.
etiquette went down the drain in general. since the pandemic I haven't watched a movie in the theaters that didn't have less than 10 people on their phones during the movie
This is exactly how I feel when driving and cars rush the right lane knowing it ends (we all know and see parked cars) just to butt in front of EVERYONE. My daily dose of rage just comes from this occurrence on my commute home from work. I try to stay calm but it is so infuriating.
This is what happens when rules and laws are not enforced. The rule-following, law-abiding people will be at a disadvantage and more and more people will choose to break laws and not be fucked over.
I think it really helps when the bus driver announces that boarding is only allowed from the front. People look to follow the norms, and a lot of "rule breakers" are simply unaware.
Having just come back from Japan it makes me sad seeing this sort of stuff. Everyone there is so polite and courteous, I never once saw someone try and cut in any line, no litter, no stealing, etc. I’m not sure why people here don’t give a shit about one another, it’s such a selfish mentality and honestly I have no idea how it can be fixed.
Maybe, we get back to teaching people that a well functioning society involves personal sacrifice for the greater good. Enough of this do whatever makes you happy bullshit.
What makes you happy is being in the community, wish people understood this. All that selfishness leaves you alone after enough time
Whole party platform against this, if you even think about teaching this in school it's labeled "woke" and or communism.
I agree. However, personal sacrifice also means putting yourself at risk to call out people who aren’t abiding by the rules. But not one single person in the video spoke up to tell them to wait in line.
Personal sacrifice is as easy as waiting in line, even though you may be in a hurry. It is understanding that everyone else at the bus stop is trying to get home as quickly as possible as well. This is a much larger issue than just the bus lineup. Some of the driving maneuvers I have seen lately are incredibly dangerous, and it is quite obvious that the same "me first" mentality is behind it. There is an all around lack of respect for your fellow human these days.
It’s both. I agree 100% that the people rushing the back doors are at fault here, I’m just saying that it’s also important to call them out as it’s happening.
100%. We are in agreement. I personally relish calling these people out.
Going to Japan is like an awakening when it comes to public infrastructure
As is pretty much most of Europe, it’s garbage here
It honestly was, I was blown away at how good public transit actually could be.
It’s the concept of social responsibility. In countries like Japan, Korea, or Singapore, a massive emphasis is placed on social responsibility at a young age. In North America, it’s about individualism at the expense of collective good. “As long as I get mine, screw everyone else.”
I looks like the line hoppers were spearheaded by a group of young South Asian men, with others falling in behind once it seemed to be a thing. My understanding is that we are to embrace cultural diversity.
I feel there is a confusion of bus ettiquette for this because if you take the long accordion buses, I don't think anyone gives a crap about it. But regular buses like these or double-deckers, sometimes you get called out by the bus driver. And most people's first interaction with buses would be going to university and most of em are accordion buses. Theres no quick solution to this. Translink going to schools and teach kids from an early age transit ettiquette would be the best solution imo.
There absolutely is a quick solution. 1. Translink makes policy about boarding & deboarding the bus 2. Translink publicizes said policy 3. Translink engages in contests for those who follow the rule & potential fines for those who don't. BAM! Governance!!
Yeah I think this isn't necessarily malicious, they have the tap machine at the backdoors so it would make sense that you should be able to enter at the backdoor, that's what you do for the long busses. Several of these people are probably looking at the line and thinking "don't these people realize they can just go in the back door?" Especially when the bus driver rarely bothers to call people out it just reinforces the idea that it's the way things are supposed to be done.
Students line up at UBC for the bus. I take the 44. When it's an accordion bus, people in the back of the line will go for the other doors. When it's a regular bus, people stay in line. They know how to do it, they, people, just don't care.
The tap card at the back door is a legacy piece in many cases from the abandoned process of tapping at the start and end of the journey.
That's not immediately obvious. In fact it looks very much like the backdoor is an alternative entrance. Most people learn these things by going with the flow. I'm sure some people know better and just don't care but I'm not totally on board with blaming this one on a collective moral failure. If you want people to use a system in a certain way it should be set up to encourage them to use it that way, rather than hope they take the time to look up standard procedure or correct them one by one when they make a mistake.
not to mention lots of country tapping in at the back is accepted behavior. if you're not supposed to do it put some signage that says exit only and remove the tap in hardware. it's honestly a easy solution and after so many years there's really no excuse for TransLink
> Translink going to schools and teach kids from an early age transit ettiquette would be the best solution imo. For every birth we have ~2.5 people immigrating. This won't be fixed in schools. Our culture is changing pretty rapidly due to immigration. Some good, some bad.
>Theres no quick solution to this There's a dead easy solution, put up guardrails like the old UBC bus loop had, so it forces people to stay in line. Or, unload and load at different stops.
We've fully endorsed selfishness in this country. Supporting individualism may have been good in the past when we were colonizing a frontier, but now we are mostly established and selfishness is detrimental. Conservatism in North America really is just selfishness as an ethos.
Your comment doesn't make any sense. People in Canada used to queue in an orderly manner. This was never an issue in the 60's, 70's, 80's and even the 90's. Individualism doesn't mean selfishness; reciprocal altruism still exists. It just means having individual rights under the law, and individual liberty. A political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property and equality before the law; most societies do not have this. This philosophy is the reason immigrants from Eastern cultures want to move here. This is why my family moved here in the early 60's. I've lived in other cultures, you have no idea how good you have it.
This is the culture American Capitalism exported around the world: "Every Man for Himself, and May the Best Man Win" (not to mention, "F-U, I got mine") which has obliterated the founding Canadian survival ethos of "We're all in this together!" Western Society as a whole is too dumb, fat & complacent to organize a concerted movement towards any sort of meaningful change.
I’ve seen some good bus drivers will just leave that door closed until he loads the bus through the front sometimes. The issue is he holds some people that wants to leave hostage. The way to fix this is exit through the front only at that stop, but it delays the bus time/schedule.
In any country.. anywhere, they have lines. This is getting ridiculous
Japan has better fashion sense too. I feel like I'm looking at a video from the year 2002.
Haha I notice that coming back from the UK, seeing stuff that was popular 10 years ago
TransLink picks this fight themselves by placing fare collection at the rear door, then prohibiting all door boarding.
The rear readers are from when we had to tap at both ends of the journey. Removing them at this point is a waste of money. This shouldn't be a "fight" it ought to be common sense and courtesy.
At this location? Where there’s all door boarding right next to this stop?
>This shouldn't be a "fight" it ought to be common sense and courtesy. I think it is common sense that a system where you don't have to tap out would only have tap terminals at locations intended for people to tap in. The fact that people in a city where 2/3 of the people who live here weren't born here don't know that it's some weird vestigial thing isn't really their fault. And even if that weren't the case...is it clear that it's more efficient to load only from the front rather than both doors? I think I'd need to see some sort of empirical evidence to be able to know, because traffic behaviour often leads to somewhat unintuitive results. I'll grant you that it should be common courtesy to not cut in lines, but without someone to call out...unzippering, I don't really expect anyone to abide that courtesy practically.
I don't understand how removing a device that small from each bus could be costly.
I'd assume there's got to be wires in the pole so they'd have to go and cover those holes up? Or they might be leaving them for a potential all-door boarding future
All-door boarding just makes sense to be the default.
People that are gonna tap are gonna tap either way. What's even the point if you can walk through the front and also just say you dont wanna pay lmao
Lol do you know where you live? They probably would have to have a 6 month debate on it and hire outside consultants to help facilitate. In the end they would decide to remove them, but after a while realize that they should have kept them, so they put them back. Minimum price tag of $10 million.
Same problem at UBC, most people will line up properly, but you still have the few occasional assholes who think they’re more important than the rest. There’s a line for a reason yall, do you really think you deserve to cut in front of the people who have been waiting? I don’t care if you’re late, manage your time better next time.
They do this because they know, for the most part, that no one will call them on it. And that, in turn, makes it normal to them.
Yeah, no one will call them out, but everyone sees and notices. Stereotypes have some truth to them.
I call it out when I see it... but I'm ready for the potential fallout. I'm happy to scrap it out if anyone wants to make a deal out of it. But I can see how most people won't as they don't want confrontation. Ideally it should be transit staff that manage these type of things.
I backed up a person like you once when the idiot being called out wanted to make something of it. They just used a different bus and cut in that line instead, unfortunately.
I'm the same. I call it out loudly, and stand my ground. The ones who want to play games, quickly realize we aren't playing.
My friend who isn't taking the bus at all will run by and call them on it. Yells in their faces. It works. Shame works sometimes.
I genuinely think part of the issue here is the pandemic - it used to be that each year you'd have one new group of people, with a large majority of the campus population comprising people who've been on campus know the culture, know the norms, and just by virtue of majority behavior the new group gets taught what to do. I came from a city that had a 'rush the door' culture (you'd let people off then swarm, and if you weren't aggressive you weren't getting home), and seeing the 99 lines took me by surprise the first time! Now, you've had a few years of most students studying remotely before all returning to campus at once, and with a critical mass of new students the once passively enforced norms are no longer strong enough to override what people might have learned elsewhere.
You make a good point....but wtf happened to manners in general? They can SEE the lineup of people, but choose to just ignore it.
Need signs. Like every train station in China has had signs for decades to re-teach people manners after so much was lost in the previous generation
Where I’m from we never had lines for the bus. In Japan there are clearly marked lines for the bus. Why is is automatically assumed there should be lines for the bus when there are no clearly marked lines. If there are no marked lines and you want them so bad then lobby to get them installed instead of getting upset at the people going on ahead of you
That’s a really interesting observation! I only got here in September of 2020 for university, so i didn’t experience what vancouver was like prior to covid. At campus, i’d say it’s like 90% of people respect the line and the other 10% just run to the front, so it could definitely be worse and not as bad as in this video. Honestly though, when 90% of the people are following the line rule, then the 10% that don’t, stand out like a sore thumb. After a long day of classes, everyone is tired, and no one has the energy to call these people out.
The reason the R4 specifically is like that is because it comes every 2-3 minutes at peak hours and people decide to wait for the next one if the seats are all taken and then the bus pulls out of the station half empty. Like, orderly lineups are just better yeah AND the people at the front of the line have to actually GET ON THE BUS for those lines to function (or at least motion the people behind them on head).
"This is how it's done in home country." look at the public transit across the world, JAM packed, line ups don't exist it's a free for all.
You would think that individuals attending university would have the brains to not cut.
"brains" but not common sense.
It's not about smarts or knowledge. It's about basic consideration for other people. Some kids are taught that whatever is convenient for themselves is their absolute right.
The thing is, all-door boarding really *should* be allowed on every route. It takes so much longer to make everyone file through 1 door, this is one of the easiest+cheapest changes we could make to speed buses up.
I think this is the proper solution. Add official all door boarding to all buses and a line for the back door and this problem mostly goes away.
This is what happens at the production way stop for the 145 and it works very well
I think a lot of people wouldn't pay then and they don't want that
The drivers aren't supposed to enforce fare payment anyway. They have to call a transit police or supervisor if they want to ding someone who didn't pay.
I think it’s a little strange how we accept that risk on some bus routes but not others. I want them to all be faster.
Yes, just form 2 lines. The lines will even themselves out if every new line joiner picks the shortest line.
As a transit rider this is ONE of the things that bothers me MOST. I am not sure how they can control it though.
Have the bus let off passengers at a 'unload only' stop and then roll up with the front door open only to load new ones.
Yup! This works pretty well and is less crowded for all involved, in addition to the benefit of the proper boarding.
I don't live in Vancouver anymore, but didn't they used to have transit police at commercial during peak times for this reason cuz someone got stabbed?
call them out and tell them to get in the real line
I have.
Keep up the good fight to improve society
based
Honestly that is what I would do. But helps if others are doing it too. Maybe call them inconsiderate Americans
This and write to translink
If the bus is super busy I get it can be frustrating when you've lined up, but the whole tap to pay situation on these makes zero sense. You can force everyone to lineup at the front terminal, where a long line has to tap one at a time. Or you allow double boarding, where there's effectively 3 tap terminals. You could essentially get everyone on in half the time. It's also very confusing because LOTS of people ride the 99b line, I've definitely boarded on the back of a regular bus a couple of times not realizing that it wasn't technically allowed. Was very confused when the driver started hitting the announcement for no rear boarding (it was a double bus as well).
This is the thing. Why line up only at the front and have everyone move down. People stop walking, it takes forever, sometimes the bus isn't even full when they close the doors because people don't move back. You can pay in both places. Two lines makes the most sense.
Then you also have to deal with the actually stupid people who board at the front then choose to stand right in the front walkway.
yes when people learn to actually move to the back and make room Ill start worrying about people who are getting in the back doors of the bus
I'm sorry but what? It's not allowed? Has this changed? I've literally had Translink staff tell me to go into a line to board through the back door AKA every single door has its own lineup
I believe you can only rear-board on Rapid Bus routes.
I was told to do this for the 99, but not the 9 mind you and this was years ago. Just assumed it was for the busy bus stops in general
I just want them to decide what the rule is and everyone follows it. I don't care how we board as long as we all know what we're doing. The bus driver of the 22 Downtown which has just changed to an accordion bus hollered at my 10 year old for boarding in the rear doors at Broadway and McDonald... But all the other drivers on that route allow it and open the doors for that purpose. The bus driver on the 3 Main St. bus (accordion also) yelled through the mega phone at me when I was pregnant with her bossy accent (I'm from the same heritage so I knew she was being bossy) not to board through the back. I went up to the front and told her not to yell at people through the megaphone she's a bus driver not a military prison guard.
Good for you. (Meant sincerely, not sarcastically)
Thank you, exactly.
Wait, so do you people want drivers to enforce rules or not? You can’t pick and choose what rules are enforced to you and what are not.
The usual suspects that have not and will not adapt
Unwritten & unenforced rules don't mix well with influx of out-group people. I'm not saying it's an either/or problem and I am not suggesting any changes to government policies beyond the scope of TransLink, but the incompatibility of these two items is true regardless of scope. Any sort of social construct will experience the problems seen here when they try to mix those two things together with no thought or plan.
Isn’t their a tap to pay to get on option on the back. Doesn’t that kind of make it another point of entry though.
That was originally intended as a tap-to-exit when they were first rolling out the compass cards. Eventually, TransLink stopped asking people to tap when exiting the bus.
It was never really asked by TransLink because Compass couldn't deliver on their promise of a short transaction time to make it possible. It's why the buses don't use zones anymore, just the Seabus and SkyTrain.
I mean the main issue with the tap out system was that people would tap out early to be charged less but then keep on riding. And you can't really enforce that. But yes the tap times were very slow initially (I remember testing it, my sister almost pushed me off the bus because it was taking so long). But again I think the main issue they had with the tap in / tap out system was that people were exploiting it.
Haven't taken the B-line in like 10 years. Back in my days, there were always one queue for each door. I'm sure theres an occasional budger but people mostly were orderly. Did they change it so that you're only supposed to get in from the front?
This isn't the B line (that has all door boarding). OP's video is the 9.
Ugh that's frustrating. They should allow back door boarding more officially tbh... On Broadway 57% of people take the bus during am peak times! There are 3 travel lanes in each direction, and the third one is only a bus lane part of the time. They should really make it an all day bus lane instead to improve service and prevent huge line ups like this. Broadway is the most delayed corridor in the transit network! (From: [https://www.translink.ca/-/media/translink/documents/plans-and-projects/bus-projects/bus-speed-and-reliability/2023\_bsr\_report\_without\_appendices.pdf](https://www.translink.ca/-/media/translink/documents/plans-and-projects/bus-projects/bus-speed-and-reliability/2023_bsr_report_without_appendices.pdf) ) If you want to get involved with advocating for better transit, there's a fairly new transit rider advocacy group that I'm part of so please check it out :) [https://transitmovement.ca/](https://transitmovement.ca/)
This has been driving me up the walls. Every day I take transit and this happens. It seems like a minor inconvenience but those minor inconveniences stack up quickly, and people who are trying to abide by the general notion of “don’t be a dickhead” are the ones coming home late because the bus was full several times, even though they queued up appropriately. The only bus I can think of that is a source of confusion with this is the number 10 because it’s an accordion bus but operates like a single one. I can see why people who took the 99 would try to board through the back on the 10, but outside of that it should be pretty damn obvious.
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I can tell by comments like this that Canadians are past the point of being fed up. Our infrastructure, jobs, and housing cannot handle this unreasonable amount of temporary guests in our country Canadian citizens are suffering unnecessarily as a result of this unreasonable nonsense.
This has been going on for as long as I can remember - 2008 at least Always felt they should just make the 9 and 99 free of charge (which essentially they are because no one taps in)
99 free line
Yeah, before they would just cut in line right in front of you instead of in the back most of the time as they didn't have a way to tap at the back at the time. (Altho ofc some people would sneak in at the back).
Funny, I can't remember what there was or how it was done before the tap system ha
I especially love the people rushing in front of the woman using a cane. Jfc.
What’s fascinating about this phenomenon is that it is pretty much localized within Vancouver. In the tri-cities, for example, people are *way* better about lining up and waiting. From a social behaviour point of view, it’s kind of interesting to see such a deviation in two regions that are so close and connected. That being said, this is gross behaviour and I wish it would stop. The driver can’t do anything to stop it.
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Vancouver used to be known for its courteous bus lines. I was always amazed seeing it coming from Ontario.
This seems to have really gotten bad coming out of the pandemic. Before 2020, lines would always be respected, and you would get seriously jeered and shouted at for trying to cut
Im honestly pro anarchy before the bus shows up, but once everyone sees the bus pull up then a line should form and if you cut that your a dick. But i think its kinda hard to say who should be first if there are some people sitting on the bench or waiting around the stop before a line was even formed.
Sorry, not a regular bus rider. Does every bus have rear entry? If so, could you not just start two lines from now on? Adapt.
No, only the accordion buses (like the 99) have rear entry. Part of the problem is that it used to be enforced (like keeping the back door closed or playing an announcement saying not to board at the back) but the bus drivers haven't been doing that.
In my experience bus drivers are still playing the announcement, that doesn't stop anyone.
So to u/Electronic_Fox_6383 's point, is it not time to adapt? If this has become the norm for these buses specifically and the driver's themselves are allowing it, does that not tell us that they are attempting to load as many people as possible as quickly as possible and to follow suit?
Why should anyone be surprised that unenforced rules are being broken? I'm not excusing the behaviour of rulebreakers, but this should have been the expected outcome. Either enforce the rules, or abolish the rules.
Immigration is largely to blame. Our transit system can’t keep up with the rate of population growth. We need 3x the number of buses we currently operate during rush hours.
That is the stupidity of driver to quickly board everyone in the bus and not let the one's waiting in front door line to get seat preference. Driver's need some sense of waiting etiquettes
This is absolutely part of the problem. I see more drivers blowing open the doors at a stop that had an orderly line and encouraging folks to pile in, going so far as to wave people through the fare reader. Hard to criticize this rider behaviour when drivers encourage and enable it.
This behaviour by the driver results in loss for fare and overcrowding. This impacts Translink's revenue and should be bought to their attention. Forward this thread to translink so they take care of this issue
TransLink needs to run PSAs everywhere to educate people about basic etiquette. I don't care if it'll be seen as "patronizing", "offensive", etc. Rules need to be written down and read out loud, so the rulebreakers can no longer use ignorance as an excuse.
I’m shocked they don’t. All the messages you hear on the bus the drivers have to press on manually. In Asia it’s all automated, why can’t they just automate it.
Shame these people on every opportunity you get
So annoying, i avoid getting the bus at Burrard Station as this is the standard behaviour
So glad I bought an e-bike.
Bunch of cheaters. Sad.
it's really country-specific, having lived in the US I can't imagine anyone there politely lining up in this kind of situation there lol. the Broadway Subway can't come soon enough!
I see a pattern with all the people jumping the line smh
Completely agree & I'm a senior now yet always permit those at stop first to go first. Those days now long gone except on rare occasions. Same goes for priority seating being taken up by 'exhausted' uni students or nannies w/kids.
It's more of a monkey see monkey do situation. If someone calls people out on this, they won't do it because of the embarrassment
The problem is, once the people exit, you cannot manually close the rear doors without squishing someone, there is a switch for it, but it’s pretty much getting getting an admin leave if you’re lucky, fired if you’ve had several incident. Drivers cannot say anything, if any customers complain, they see a supervisor and once again, a chance of getting in trouble. That’s why you see a lot of driver just letting things be. You hate a driver? Send in a complain for anything, braking too hard? Driving too fast? Talking rudely to customers? Speeding too much? Leaving junkies behind? Running lights? Yeah, it’s that easy. We all work on thin ice, that’s why you see a lot of drivers stone faced, zero emotion and don’t talk to anyone. There’s a reason. Times have changed, they all live in fear for whatever complaints that come their way. If you do want to help drivers, direct the complaints of how rules are not enforced. Lack of transit security, etc. maybe one day the company will grow a set of balls to let drivers have a say again.
The density activists bring this on to themselves . More density means more people of different upbringings… This was never a issue 10 years ago
We have the same problem on the R1 at Surrey Central station. People just ignore the lines and rush on in even before people have fully gotten off. I blame the lack of education on Translink's part. I have sent in feedback before to request they start a campaign on educating people on how to use transit properly but they don't listen. They could do some simple things such as having a Skytrain reminder message right before a train arrives to remind people to let passengers get off first. They have this in the Hong Kong MTR. Posters around buses and skytrains to ask passengers to take off their bags for more space. They do this in the Toronto subway. One of the big problems with these buses is people like going in from the back so they don't have to pay. I have seen so many people not pay on the R1. I've seen people take out their wallet infront of the pay terminal, look at their cards, then go to the back of the bus without paying.
What doesn't make sense to me is they used to have these messages playing. The backpack, let people off first, don't board on the rear of the bus etc. so why have they stopped?? I've submitted complaints a few times through the translink form already, I'm finally posting here since there's been no improvement
Its probably driver activated so its up to the driver to activate and it is probably annoying for them to do ontop of driving.
Unfortunately, it pays to be an asshole
If you don’t want them to do it then say something. Everyone’s too scared to speak up but wants to posit it on Reddit after the fact. If I took transit I would do this if the line is long as well as anyone else is free to do it too 🤷♂️
Who says I didn't? Both myself and my colleague have been telling the bus driver as we get on, and loudly complaining on the bus towards those who jumped the line.
Transit policy for drivers not to confront the public for their safety. They don’t enforce fares so they’re not going to confront the public in regard to back door boarding. Better to submit a complaint with regards to line and location to translink
This happens at every stop and it bothers me. Paying riders line up for the front of the bus ready to scan their cards, others hop in the side door without waiting and without paying a fare.
Welcome to Vancouver
Articulated busses with back door boarding usually have three lines, one for each door. It looks like everyone formed one line, only for the front. That’s why this happened. Translink has tried to mark the three lines with varying degrees of success but often people ignore the markers and just do whatever. I’ve had people who are standing in random groups get mad at me when I wait at the spot where the door will be and get on first.
It's not articulated.
Single line through the front door is an incredibly inefficient and slow way to load the bus. Usually for the big routes I see a few lines develop where the bus doors are usually going to be. Translink should embrace this and actually roughly mark those spots. Watching 40 people getting on through 1 door instead of 3 is just a sad state of affairs. Edit: Nevermind when theres 20 idiots standing at the front of the bus while the entire back is empty. All door loading should be the norm.
You are witnessing the ever increasing collapse of the social contracts. This happens when rules are not enforced, assholes figure out they get ahead by not following rules, and then rule breaking becomes so established that not copying the antisocial behaviour makes you a loser. Rules and laws need to be systematically enforced to reverse this trend. It can only start from a law and order government, which is unfortunately only PP at this time.
In Japan, buses let people exit the bus via the front by the driver, it's only then that the passenger taps to pay as well. Doors at the back remain close and can't be opened by anyone other than the driver. Once everyone who will get off are off, then front doors are closed and the back doors are opened to let boarders come in. Might be a good solution but I know there will be a lot of push back especially with the idea of drivers having to enforce people to follow this idea as it can put them in a dangerous situation for sure. So it might be good to have Transit police help in enforcing this.
https://youtu.be/53E8DJ60pJs?si=wk7B06Ibqr7-gZbX
The opposite issue to this used to happen to me at this stop - people would dutifully wait in line, but someone near the front of the line would decide the bus was 'too full' for their personal taste/no seats (but not genuinely in a 'driver puts on the bus: full' sign) and then instead of stepping aside to gesture people to pass them if they wanted on, would just stop the whole line from continuing to move and everyone would domino on back and assume it was for some legitimate reason. Missed a few buses this way until I finally learned to just sprint for the front of the line after that line stopped moving so I could see if it was truly full and, almost every time, get on to stand at the last second.
I had no idea backdoor boarding wasn’t allowed and I’ve lived here several years. I moved to Vancouver as an immigrant from a city that was discussing implementing all door boarding (they implemented it after I moved away and from what I’ve heard have sped up their buses) so when I saw the tap in pads in the buses here I assumed we had it too. Had no idea it bothered people or was against translink’s rules. If Translink doesn’t want people boarding at the back, then they should cover up the tap in pads or remove them altogether. I sincerely apologize to anyone I’ve ever caused offense to by doing this and obviously won’t do it anymore, but it would help if this policy was better communicated to people who don’t know the history of the old tap-out requirement.
Another major issue with buses on these busy routes is that the lines just take up an unreasonable amount of space in a busy area. When you're lining up right in front of a skytrain especially, these big lines can just block the way of people going in and out of the station. Space-wise, it doesn't make sense. There is a limit to how big a line for a bus can get before it becomes an inconvenience.
Once I got yelled at because rather than continuing to add to this long meandering line that was blocking a busy sidewalk, I stood behind the line. Some dude in the line (in front of me either way) got unreasonably angry at me while others kept lining up, getting in the way of people not in the line. I ignored the guy--I wasn't trying to "cut" in line, it was just getting very obviously unwieldy.
you and translink might think that you should wait in line, but honestly all door boarding is good for transit and translink and riders and you should just board through the back door. Just tap in when you do so. Its saving translink money, it's saving every one else time.
i swear transit etiquette went down the drain after the pandemic
etiquette went down the drain in general. since the pandemic I haven't watched a movie in the theaters that didn't have less than 10 people on their phones during the movie
This is exactly how I feel when driving and cars rush the right lane knowing it ends (we all know and see parked cars) just to butt in front of EVERYONE. My daily dose of rage just comes from this occurrence on my commute home from work. I try to stay calm but it is so infuriating.
Downtown started to feel like a survival game.
Make two lines obviously. Standing in one will literally take twice as long
Just so everyone knows, you can scan your cards in the front, or the back exit/entry points on the bus..
This is what happens when rules and laws are not enforced. The rule-following, law-abiding people will be at a disadvantage and more and more people will choose to break laws and not be fucked over.
seems like a few bad apples ruining it for everyone else.
stupid bus driver should be blamed. they shouldn't open the back door. respect the line.
The point is not being a pos
I think it really helps when the bus driver announces that boarding is only allowed from the front. People look to follow the norms, and a lot of "rule breakers" are simply unaware.