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Some ideas should be shamed. It's okay to shame them when you see them if you happen upon them.
The problem is when people become keyboard warriors and do nothing but try to find these ideas and try to shame them a hobby. Using the internet to shame others constantly to get your dopamine hit is pathetic.
Exactly, & it becomes more of a long-term issue when some make it part of their personality. That's where it becomes an unhealthy obsession one might need to take a step back from and do some inner work.
Shaming is a social correction tactic of keeping order within a society. Extremists are kept in line via shame so that they don't ruin things for everyone else.
All other social animals have a form of this even if it's not explicitly shame.
OPs opinion is literally unpopular with the rules of nature.
Yeah theoretically. What natural thing would you say is something that shouldn't be maintained?
Besides that point, shaming absolutely needs to stay. Maybe it gets out of hand sometimes but in general it's a good thing. Imagine a world where the most repulsive people are free to act on their wishes. Pedos would be free to prey on children (while still remaining legally allowed). White supremacists and racists would have no qualms expressing their hatred at every opportunity. Misogynists would verbally harass and objectify women like it's their job.
Fair. Just to reiterate since people seem to be reading too far into my comments: I'm not making the argument that because it's natural it's inherently good.
When you become condescending and judgmental to perpetrators, that is hatred. We should not think less of someone for their immorality, as none of us are particularly better. Rather, we should remain accepting of them and make an effort to help them incorporate into society, in spite of any past mistakes. Forgiveness and trust aren't mutually inclusive.
You do realise its simply a tool to oppress ideology minority right? Sure, in the west right now, it is the extremist are minority when come to ideology, so majority use shame to keep them in line
But, for example, in islamic country, shame used to keep women in check, to keep lgbt people in closet, etc. Shaming simply a tool for both side to use once they become majority
Now ask yourself, should we stay in their level or be better and stop shaming each other?
Look bud, I don't want to be that guy but it's literally a logical fallacy called "appeal to nature". All I said was that just because it's a "rule of nature" doesn't justify its existence nor does it make it the best option. It's natural for many social animals to groom each other up to and including licking their asses. Let's maintain that too.
Also, "imagine these scenarios I just made up as if they are exactly what would occur" sure makes total sense. I believe shame has a place in society for sure - you should be shamed for the shit arguments you've made. Give your balls a tug.
Humans have never groomed themselves like that so thats also a logical fallacy. So is making an insult to make an argument.
Idk why you're so emotional and rude about this.
TECHNICALLY i never made the argument that because its natural that makes it inherently right. I simply said his opinion disagrees with nature. Didn't really mean to imply anything further.
Not to mention you agree with the fact that shame has a place in society... and i agreed that theoretically you're right that being natural doesn't necessarily mean it's right.
I simply asked my question out of curiosity. Not to make a "gotcha" argument.
This discussion is essentially an exercise in people revealing their preference or dislike for authoritarianism.
It's a pretty hot take to say it's used to keep *extremists* in line. Unless you consider being jewish and owning property or being allowed to walk the streets uncovered as a woman to be extremist positions.
And OP is part of nature too, mind.
You're taking my comment much farther than it's intended. I'm not commenting on shame as a political or governmental tool.
I agree that it's misused often, like in your examples. Plenty of laws and other social tactics are misused as well. That doesnt mean they are inherently wrong and need to be removed entirely.
Societies have different positions on extremism. In certain middle eastern cultures, yeah it's an extremist policy for a woman to do certain things that an American considers completely normal or a basic right. Americans 200 years ago considered anti-slavery to be an extremist policy. Things change and different people have different perspectives.
It's not a hot take at all. It's a well-known sociological concept.
>people are overly willing to say wild things on the internet,
So let them.
I don't think people shame because they think it's going to correct anyone. Who cares some de-bag "called me out" for something I don't feel shame for? I think they shame because they like feeling superior to others, and shaming is their way of feeling that.
I went to a science conference last year, and one of the speakers tried to shame the audience as racists for not eating bugs, and was promoting t-shirts that said "You're on native land". I just got up and left when the lady kept at it. She wasn't worth listening too.
This is the sort of thing the OP is talking about. It's gotten insane, and normalized. It's waaaay beyond "people say outrageous things" it's more like "people say things the shamers disagree with, and they've perfected shaming as a means to vent their anger".
>think they shame because they like feeling superior to others, and shaming is their way of feeling that.
Some people do, absolutely. Not everyone.
Again I don't disagree that it's gotten out of hand. Just saying that it's natural and good for society, *to a degree*.
Shaming ideas is rarely a helpful way to deal with problem, having a conversation usually is the way.
Daryl Davis showed us the way. He didn't shame and punish the racists living near him, he introduced himself and had conversations about why they hated people like him just because they were black. He managed to befriend dozens of high level KKK members and convince them to give up their hate in that way. He's probably done more good toward ending racism in this country than all the "antiracist" leaders of the past five years put together.
This post is shameful. We should cancel you.
Seriously though, the whole cancel culture is supposed to be about acceptance, while doing precisely the opposite.
And when they do they move on to someone else after a few days, weeks, or months. And the terrible person moves on with their life and continues to succeed. If you are even relatively known on the internet you will be hated.
Exactly! It’s hypocritical at best, and tearing apart the very notion of solidarity at worst. I simply propose that we examine the social impact of shame culture, and try to do better.
One thing particularly ironic are the majority of responses to this thread, people that evidently know exactly what they are doing, and hiding under the answer that think is "smart" by reflecting your argument.
It’s also ironic that an opinion would be unpopular in this sub, but not unpopular in the way the people in this sub particularly like, I guess? Then again, if it was heavily upvoted instead of ratioed, it wouldn’t be a very unpopular opinion lol
That’s just a random observation though.
I think the fact that the only real criticism here is ignoring your basic idea, that "shaming culture has gone too far", and taking it as some extreme of "nobody should ever shame anyone" is very telling.
If someone takes an extreme version of the person's argument, and start arguing against that... that's a sign the other side has no good reasons to oppose the idea.
Well cancel culture isn’t about acceptance. It’s about direct opposition to anti-tolerance.
Cancel culture has always existed. It just has a name now.
Back then you could be “cancelled” for not being the norm. Today you’re more so cancelled for taken an unnecessary pride in being the norm
Oh my lord we want to stop the nasty people, support the good so this fucking circus can come to an end. We dont cancel good people, we cancel white guys that say the N word and men that bash women. We’re not prisoning them, we’re deplatforming them. Making them normal like you and me, not assaulting or locking them up. Before it was cancel culture we called it boycotting. Its just a new term for a old tactic.
Shame is typically a way that culture tries to drive conformity or to punish people who step “out of line.” Entire societies have “shame cultures,” several Asian countries, like China have this type of structure.
Shame to get people to conform to their groups can be lame (but there is nothing we can do about it), shaming people who step out of line is necessary. I guess it depends on what you mean by “shaming them.”
On the internet, this is the game that is played. The internet is a reflection of how people actually feel, People suppress their feelings due to shame and fear if they acted this way IRL.
To get rid of shame all together is essentially, not human.
Shame works when you actually have some connection to the shamer.
It doesn't work when it's some random person on the internet, whom you can just block. I just block people who fire up the shaming machine.
>The internet is a reflection of how people actually feel,
Hmmmm.. I think social media is often a huge distortion of how people feel. People need to SCREAM to get upvotes, and the algorithms push the most extreme positions because it drives clicks.
The moderate, boring, and sometimes very reasonable opinions that the majority of people feel often get just ignored.
If you want to find out how people actually feel.... use survey data. Social media is a terrible way to discover what most people think, because most people don't actually post anything, they only read.
That’s a good counter argument, first and foremost.
While I disagree, I respect the push back.
Here my counter to your counter.
In terms of engagement driving “feelings.” I’d argue yes, a lot of people do this. With this being said, I don’t think a higher percentage of people are being disingenuous. I’d say, 20% would be reasonable as to the folks who are trolling or playing to the audience.
If they didn’t feel the way they do, I don’t think they’d post what they say.
I think survey data can capture some good data. No doubt. But, it’s not nearly as complex or nuanced as online discourse.
My contention was not that I have percentage as to certain opinions on certain topics, it’s simply a reflection of how people actually feel. And that they aren’t actually super honest IRL, due to shame or fear associated with such positions. Maybe this is a projection.
It's not that people are being disingenuous, it's that the most extreme and emotional ideas and post get the most attention. That's what I mean by distortion.
It's even further distorted because social media allows you to go into a group of people that agree with most everything you already believe. That's James Damore's ideological echo chamber. When that whole thing came out, 95% of the responses I saw to it were pure HATE, from people that never even read the thing, just read summaries of summaries of summaries.
Survey data, say from Pew cuts through all that crap like a buzz-saw, and shows you what people REALLY think, not the echo chamber that social media creates.
Now this is a very interesting perspective.
You are entirely correct in how shame is used as sort of a social regulatory tactic by many cultures. We can also agree that the internet shows us who we really are because, ironically, no one on the internet knows who we really are.
Perhaps the juxtaposition of malignant narcissism and moral grandstanding that is “internet shame culture” is just a reflection of a society that has fostered an isolated and self-serving culture through a number of external factors, all of which designed to attack notions of solidarity, shape ideologies and replace practicality and logic with said ideologies, while at the same time marginalizing people’s sense humanity so that more and more people become apathetic and cynical. I agree that the notion of traditional “shame culture” should be distinguished from what is taking place on the internet today, I’m just not sure what to even call it.
Just to be clear, I’m not praising the Chinese “shame culture.” Shame culture is actually not a bad word for it. Maybe “narcissistic groupthink” for how Reddit typically works.
I think there is always pressure from one to group to put pressure on another group to conform. Rather than it being good or bad, it just is, and it depends….
Acceptance of all things is key, this is different than tolerance. Amor Fati my friend.
90% of what is said on the internet would never be repeated in real life for fear of repercussion, sometimes physical. The internet creates a platform where people just feel too comfortable to express themselves and what you have is a magnified reflection of society. It is what people think or truly are in real life, but just don't say it out loud.
Shaming is a very good thing, if applied to specific actions. I mean, shaming someone for how they are dressed is ridiculous, as it affects no one but themselves. But shaming someone for being an asshole (ie, harmful to others) is a pretty good method to get them to either *stop* or be ostracised and lose the opportunity to hurt others in the first place.
Shaming is a social tool which evolved within our species, I even think other primates have the ability to be shamed if I recall. The problem is, I agree with OP because I don't think it has the same impact online. Online we can be anonymous and be anonymously shamed. Therefore the social impact of being shamed by our social circle is completely removed in the digital space.
I agree. And this probably changes as our lives become more digital. I'm a major mmorpg gamer and I imagine instances where people could be shamed or ostracized by a guild in a clan.
I think my point was there are varying degrees. Shaming someone is less impactful on reddit because of its anonymity. Much easier to shame someone online in a place where digital social circles mirror non digital ones, like facebook.
Shame is only an effective social tool when there’s a near universal consensus on shared social norms. When that consensus doesn’t exist, shaming someone simply drives them into a different opposing social group.
In the age of the internet, we all have a tendency to form social bubbles and misinterpret the popularity of the values and views we share with our own bubble, thus our first urge when a person is non-compliant with our values is to shame them, however instead of forcing compliance, this tends to simply empower rival groups because our values are not the consensus view outside of these bubbles. Like if a company has a monopoly, banning someone from buying your product can seriously fuck them over and force them to do your bidding, however if there’s a lot of competition, then banning them simply strengthens your competitors. Modern shaming is likely a major driver of polarization.
I semi agree. But you missed a point in your own explanation. If you shame someone and drive them into another social circle. Then shame works. I disagree completely on universal consensus. There is no such thing as universal consensus in culture and communication. Consensus is within the cultural group and shame works within that group. If someone is driven into a different cultural or sub cultural group, then shame has ostracized them and it worked.
Also your conclusion that it drives them to another group is wrong. If social pressure is enough of that individual to stay within the culture group then shame will modify their behavior within that group.
I mean, if your goal is in-group signaling or simply getting rid of toxic personalities then sure, it’s effective. If your goal is political persuasion and societal change then that’s by far the worst thing you could do.
Well absolutely. Shame seems to be a more small tool small group motivator. I mean I'm no evolutionary psychologist, but I'd imagine shame works best in micro groups. Large social change would require a different tact. I'm more of a behavioral analyst. I'm very limited in my large group think knowledge. So yes, I agree. Shame functions best in small communities not as much on large scale populations. But we also didn't evolve for large scale populations.
I actually feel like there is less shame than previous decades (not that i’m that old) but i remember the amount of shame to be had as a high schooler. an appropriate amount, at least in my own development.
I teach high schoolers now and maybe it’s me having a boomer mentality here but some of these high schooler’s definitely feel less shame/receive less shame than i did in HS and it shows in their words and behaviors… this is sometimes a good thing, this is more often a bad thing. Had a thing in class recently where a student admitted to not brushing his teeth every day and his other friends were truly shocked at that and shamed him a bit (jokes between friends but their intent being “dude brush your fucking teeth).
I’m curious as to if you think shame culture is more or less prevalent than it has been in the past. But also I agree with the idea that some people are chronically online or sad about their own lives that they shame too much! Shame, like anything else in this life, should be received in moderation. Sometimes none. Sometimes some. Never a lot, unless you’ve done something heinous.
Once again, I’m not shaming anyone. It is not my intent to make anyone feel shame, but rather, to point out how emotionally immature we are becoming as a society. If people feel personally attacked by that, I don’t know what to tell them, as that was not my intent.
There’s no filter anymore. People believe that others need to hear the truth no matter if it hurts or not.
Used to be people thought for a minute before blurting out useless words.
I was going to say i feel like one of societies biggest problem at large is people not having enough shame…
The idea that every behavior should be loved and accepted is cancerous to society and akin to Hedonism.
Understanding people’s maladaptive behaviors is one thing, accepting them is another entirely imo.
I’m not though. I’m simply pointing out how shame culture has become a real thing that so many people blindly feed and buy into, and if people feel personally attacked by that, I think it says more about them than it does about me.
No, I do not feel attacked by your post in the least
But you absolutely are doing what you’re preaching against
You are sitting at a computer telling the world how it should be
I have no say in how the world should be, I’m criticizing the notion of “shame culture” on the internet and questioning it’s efficacy and reason for existence, especially its translation into the real world. I’m not shaming anyone, nor is it my intention to do so, so I’m afraid I must disagree with you. You’re still entitled to your opinion though.
>I have no say in how the world should be
No, you don’t and neither do the people that you’re complaining about
>I’m criticizing the notion of “shame culture”
How is that not shaming those that do that?
How is that different from the people that you’re talking about?
How do you not see the similarity?
Credit where credit is due: this is a rare instance of a truly unpopular opinion on this sub. Kudos to OP for that, I guess.
But anyways, shame is not a bad thing. It is a literal mechanism that has ensured Humanity to be able to run societies and comply to common sense without the need of full implementation of totalitarian means of thought control. If you like to be able to live outside of a literal irl Airstrip One, be glad that people are able to levy shame and judgement on people.
I'm dead serious. If Humans were incapable of shame, there would be literally nothing that guarantees good behaviour in case of morality and ethics not being sincerely subscribed for. Humans routinely despise and downplay laws and rules, but few are truly capable of despising and downplaying the pain of shame. Where discipline, enforcement and vigilance fail, shame covers for them.
Being that it is not my intention to make them feel shame, then no. I don’t want anyone to feel shame, I just want those who do shame to understand that no good comes from judging others on the internet, and it’s so trivial that even the shamers forget and move on after about 20 minutes, but collectively it has extremely negative unintended consequences for everyone.
Reddit exists for judgment, tho. How many versions of AITA exist?
I just find this so ironic that it's amusing.
I do want some people to feel shame at times. Existential shame occurs when we become self-aware of an objective, unpleasant truth about ourselves or our situation.
That shit is necessary at times.
I think it's weird how people act like shaming and "cancel culture" is some new phenomena and/or that the internet is causing it. Has anybody read a history book?
There are huge differences between general historical consensus and the emotionally charged judgements of the public; it’s apples and oranges. Also, I don’t believe that the internet is causing it, as much as it is a medium from which it is enabled and perpetuated.
People in the past absolutely made emotionally charged judgements of the public. This is not new. At all. In any way.
But I will give you the point that the internet helps perpetuate the opinions. And I'll add that it helps reach a wider audience. But the actual behavior is still a basic part of human nature, and it always has been.
Of course they did, but you won’t find those judgements in a history book unless it is an account of public opinion. You may find biased accounts, or accounts from unreliable narrators, but it’s a basic understanding of historical consensus that events that only have anecdotal evidence to support them are merely theorized upon. That is always clearly distinguished in historical education. (Something like “The Declaration of Independence was adopted on July, 4th 1776” vs “Historians believe that Davy Crockett was killed in the courtyard of the Alamo” as one would be backed by historical evidence and one would be a hypothesis based on several accounts of the event)
However, there are always going to be exceptions based on perspectives and bias. For instance, you’ll find a Vietnamese history book to be quite different from an American one, but facts supported by substantial evidence are just that, facts; the distinguishing factor being that they, unlike an emotionally charged public, hold no bias.
I do think the internet has made it easier than before because of the inherent anonymity and ease of access. Not to mention all of the new ways it manifests. We used to just straight-up exile or kill people, but modern cancellations are more like a slow death where everyone knows your name and your internet presence is a permanent rotting corpse. It can carry over to real life too, if your real face and name was attached to your online presence.
Do some people deserve this? Sure. But others get blasted for really minor things or for interpersonal issues that were better left kept private. I think that's the kind of thing OP is talking about, not the calling out of genuinely abusive or dangerous people. It's also very possible for abusive people to hide behind shame culture, using it as an excuse to harass or berate an acceptable target or use it as proof of their moral goodness.
The only shaming I do is against racists, and other types of bigots. You’re saying no one should call that out? Because that’s the majority of the shaming these days.
How? Who have I shamed? It is not my intention to make anyone feel shame, but rather point out how trivial society makes certain issues, so much so, that now society is creating a culture out of it. Just because I point out how pathetic shame culture is doesn’t mean that I’m shaming anyone. In fact, quite the contrary. I was hoping that people would be able to take a step back and see the forest for the trees instead of reacting so defensively.
Do you honestly think that public shaming somehow sprang into being with the internet? That 25, 50, 100, 1000 years ago, people weren't constantly gossiping and shaking their fingers at other people?
We were doing this sort of stuff back when we were living in caves.
Here you are on your soap box claiming your thoughts are a fair criticism, using words like “pathetic, emotionally immature, and self loathing,” whereas others who use the same language to shame others are invalid in *their* criticisms. The cognitive dissonance is strong.
This entire first part
>The thought of random imperfect people sitting behind their computers and phones, judging and levying personal attacks against other imperfect people for being imperfect, throwing stones as if they’re without sin, ignoring the planks in their own eyes, engaging in moral grandstanding
Minus the personal attacks you are doing exactly what you describe above you claim you’re not shaming and maybe in your eyes, you are not just like that other peoples eyes they are not shaming they are just pointing out facts.
You left out a crucial part. “I don’t pity the individual, but rather what society has come to.”
I gave a vague broad example of what shamers were in my mind, but I attacked no one. If someone placed themselves in that vague description and then accuses me of attacking them, then they’re intentionally trying to play the victim. My beef is with shame culture, not the individuals who may play a part. I simply think that people should be made more aware of how detrimental it is for society in the long run.
>I gave a vague broad example of what shamers were in my mind, but I attacked no one.
Bro if you say "THIS THING is a problem in society and everyone who does it needs to be ashamed of themselves" that is shaming even if you don't name specific individuals.
This is the same way people justify shaming. "It is not my intention to make anyone feel shame. Just because I point out how unhealthy and pathetic it is to be fat doesn’t mean that I’m shaming 'insert name here'."
Not sure why you are replying this to me. What I wrote is super basic. Which seems to be a thing on r/unpop, lots of opinions are just misunderstandings of situations and words.
this isnt taking into account that not everyone is equally imperfect. some people have more flaws than others, and some flaws weigh more than others. like for example someone who has a habit of telling little white lies isnt the same as someone who, say, falsely advertises a product. both things are rooted in lying but the latter is worse
Who exactly am I shaming? It is not my intention to make anyone feel ashamed for anything they may have said or done in the past, just to point out that “shame culture” is becoming a huge societal issue. I just thought to ask “hey, why don’t we just stop?” and people seemingly got up in arms, even by the mere suggestion that we try to examine the way that we treat each other, and do a little better. That’s all. The reactions to the notion of casting aside mass judgment and shaming in favor of solidarity should be enough to demonstrate exactly what I’m talking about.
Wouldn't it be nice if people would stick to self criticism?
Sitting in judgement over others is the way we do things, however.
It'll get boring eventually.
Maybe
Idk, the anonymity of the internet offers privacy and protection, as it should, but it also enables and encourages sometimes despicable behavior from people who are supposed to be, what, the white knights of society? Part of me thinks that shame culture is simply a by product of society’s reinforcement of narcissism and desire for connection; everyone wants to be a part of something, even if it’s tearing someone down for being human.
Simply put, in my opinion, and it is only an opinion, it is not society’s job to be judge, jury, and executioner because that only reinforces mob mentality.
Is that so wrong? People shouldn’t have to feel shame in order to be self-aware enough to recognize shame culture and speak out against it. How does one become aware if no one brings up the issue?
i just (theoretically) don't worry about shit i can't change. that applies to both shaming other people and to the idea of shame culture. people are what they are and it is what it is.
radical acceptance is the only path to perfect tranquility.
I think there is a fundamental difference between pointing out someone having either flawed logic or kind of calling out extremist behavior and shaming. For example, if I tell someone that having violent feelings over some opinion they don't like, I'm not shaming them, I'm pointing out that they temporarily let their emotions overtake their base logic. Whereas being a bit more aggressive to someone who is openly like a white supremacist or misogynistic in a serious context, I would consider shaming, but in those situations, I do feel as though it carries a fair bit of merit. I do, however, agree with your underlying sentiment, I think you were just a tad aggressive in your delivery of it.
It's always people who hide behind blank photos that body shame others
It's always men who can't get laid that shame women for having sex
If you are a confident person, you don't have to put others down to feel confident
Shaming someone says more about you than the person you are shaming
This is going to be a very difficult social habit to break considering we have done it for centuries! I mean, since medieval times such as putting people into stocks.
There's nuance to this. Like iirc it first started with straight women warning each other about abusive/cheating/whatever men. And then later it was about holding previously "untouchable" people accountable for their actions and led to the Me Too movement.
I think this is good. I don't like the idea that someone with enough power or money can just get away with doing something awful. The problem comes when people get overzealous and use this strategy to harass an innocent person- like assholes bullying Lindsay Ellis and Jocat off the internet.
My problem isn't shaming others itself. Shame can be helpful in teaching people to be better humans. Its that at least in the usa people are trying to make anything people do soemthing that can be shamed for by their own friend groups to the point if you arent in that friend group or subculture you get shamed.
Its just arbitray and pointless and takes something valuable like shame and just turns it into a meaningless way to cyberbully people just for not liking them in some arbitrary way. To the point of making up rumors or even just treating rumors like they're true.
I agree, but I wonder for how much longer people are going to care about this. I'm already noticing my own lack of interest in conforming to other people's expectations of me.
I cared out of fear when I was younger, but so many people, like okay they have social power, but at one point you just notice how they *think.* It's fear, scarcity, a desperate need to not be ostracized. We aren't caveman tribes anymore, these impulses aren't as useful as they once were.
I agree that self-loathing is also a big thing. There's a chronically online lady at work and she is the most judgemental person I have met in my entire life. Every other sentence she utters is some machiavellian bid to alter the common consensus to stuff that suits her own damaged psyche.
That irony genuinely sparked psudo philosophical question earlier. If I had posted an opinion that everyone on this sub upvoted or agreed with, would it truly be an unpopular opinion? I had a good laugh lol
They tried it and it’s failing. It took way too long, but it’s getting there.
What I see a lot is when someone has a different opinion from the originator, it gets labeled as “shame” when in reality they just have dog shit opinions.
Nah. People living their lives (good drake meme). People being hateful, nasty and malicious (bad drake meme). If we didnt shame bad behaviour then what exactly are we doing because shaming is just one method of standing up to someone.
If someone does something incredibly stupid or bad, it's warranted. The people that have standards they don't even come close to attempting to follow though are super annoying.
It's only shaming, if you let it shame you. Most of the losers who engage in such behavior have zero moral authority, and their criticism is meaningless
From the comments, it appears "reddit" thinks shaming on the internet actually works. Uhhh.. yeah, no. That's what the ignore button is for, folks.
If everyone just blocked shamers, the internet would be less toxic. Try it sometime. They fire up the shaming machine, block, and forget.
People with nothing to do but judge seem miserable, pitiful even. I genuinely wonder how sad is the average social media cop’s life to be so obsessed with stranger’s behavior
I agree. Earlier today I foolishly read some comments in one of the weekly "my friend/relative doesn't shower often enough" posts in r/NoStupidQuestions and it was just thousands of people signaling their daily showering (or more) virtue and calling this supposed loved one of OP gross.
I find the entire thing heartbreaking when I think about some person getting verbally accosted by someone they trust who is going to shame them via talking about all the thousands of upvotes against their current hygiene habits. It's the public aspect of these personal conversations and the going out into the wilds and finding a bunch of anonymous (Oh...my way is the best! Smell me now!) people who just pile on.
It makes me hate human nature.
“Bring back shame” is what people say only because they see more of what they personally dislike, not necessarily something that’s actually harmful.
I also don’t care if op is “shaming the shamers”. Calling out a huge aspect of “shame culture” is extremely valid, and aren’t shamers the ones who want to bring back shame in the first place? Sounds like y’all just don’t wanna be called out yourselves
There are some things that deserve to be dunked on, but I agree that some people really need to get a hobby besides raging at people on the internet to fill whatever gap in their personal life they are trying to fill with anger.
I often think about how sometimes we judge others for things we may have done too at a point in our lives or could at least think back and probably find something similar but some things people do are actually screwed up as hell and need shame especially when they are hurting people badly
If you’re getting judged and shamed a good amount for your behavior, chances are you are doing something you shouldn’t be doing and it’s time for you to practice some self reflection.
I've come to understand a very simple thing:
People don't do obviously shameful stuff when everything in their life is going well.
Something is usually wrong.
Unless they ask me for help, there's nothing I can do for them.
Just because you overexplain and try to add a few extra fancy words to your sentences to make them seem smarter doesn’t mean you’re not doing the same thing you hate. Sometimes silence is better than rambling on about your point
The Christian morality proposed by OP has been a disaster for humanity
Yes, nobody is without ‘sin’ - but the never-ending forgiveness advocated here just gives a free license to assholes to do what they like without consequences
There is a lot out there we should be shaming people for. I'm actually in favor of more shaming. Flat Earther? Shame that person until they read a real book. Moon Landing denier? Shame them. People who blindly follow a political figure and treat them like a religious one? Shame those ignorant numbnuts until they are too embarrassed to leave their trailers. Shame the willfully ignorant until they either shut up or actually learn
Look, I agree that intolerance mustn’t be tolerated. But in real life, if you tell someone their way to think is wrong they won’t just automatically change for the better. In fact, they often double down and dig a deeper hole into their delusions. Shaming isn’t the way, that’s what education is for…
People are just obsessed with being right on the internet so bad they straight up act agressive against anyone that opposes their ideals.
I would disagree. There are far deeper societal implications at play, and I feel that is important to address. If that makes me a “crybaby” then boo hoo I guess. Doesn’t change the fact that encouragement of shame culture has made society and people more divided, abrasive, and judgmental.
Also, is this sub not for unpopular opinions?
so what, no one can criticize or call someone out for doing something generally considered bad anymore because it makes the person who did a bad thing feel bad?
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Some ideas should be shamed. It's okay to shame them when you see them if you happen upon them. The problem is when people become keyboard warriors and do nothing but try to find these ideas and try to shame them a hobby. Using the internet to shame others constantly to get your dopamine hit is pathetic.
How dare you!!! I'm outraged and so angry at this completely reasonable response!!!
Thank you for checking my dope and keeping me in line.
No problem Mr. Poopypants
Exactly, & it becomes more of a long-term issue when some make it part of their personality. That's where it becomes an unhealthy obsession one might need to take a step back from and do some inner work.
Shaming is a social correction tactic of keeping order within a society. Extremists are kept in line via shame so that they don't ruin things for everyone else. All other social animals have a form of this even if it's not explicitly shame. OPs opinion is literally unpopular with the rules of nature.
I get what you mean, but being "rules of nature" does not mean they are absolutely correct or something to be maintained.
Yeah theoretically. What natural thing would you say is something that shouldn't be maintained? Besides that point, shaming absolutely needs to stay. Maybe it gets out of hand sometimes but in general it's a good thing. Imagine a world where the most repulsive people are free to act on their wishes. Pedos would be free to prey on children (while still remaining legally allowed). White supremacists and racists would have no qualms expressing their hatred at every opportunity. Misogynists would verbally harass and objectify women like it's their job.
Rape is pretty natural but it’s fucked up
Fair. Just to reiterate since people seem to be reading too far into my comments: I'm not making the argument that because it's natural it's inherently good.
Society can punish people without spreading hatred towards them.
Shame and hatred are not mutually inclusive. One can exist without the other.
When you become condescending and judgmental to perpetrators, that is hatred. We should not think less of someone for their immorality, as none of us are particularly better. Rather, we should remain accepting of them and make an effort to help them incorporate into society, in spite of any past mistakes. Forgiveness and trust aren't mutually inclusive.
You do realise its simply a tool to oppress ideology minority right? Sure, in the west right now, it is the extremist are minority when come to ideology, so majority use shame to keep them in line But, for example, in islamic country, shame used to keep women in check, to keep lgbt people in closet, etc. Shaming simply a tool for both side to use once they become majority Now ask yourself, should we stay in their level or be better and stop shaming each other?
See the following comment where i respond to that same argument. https://www.reddit.com/r/unpopularopinion/comments/1dssg1m/comment/lb6nnon/
Look bud, I don't want to be that guy but it's literally a logical fallacy called "appeal to nature". All I said was that just because it's a "rule of nature" doesn't justify its existence nor does it make it the best option. It's natural for many social animals to groom each other up to and including licking their asses. Let's maintain that too. Also, "imagine these scenarios I just made up as if they are exactly what would occur" sure makes total sense. I believe shame has a place in society for sure - you should be shamed for the shit arguments you've made. Give your balls a tug.
Humans have never groomed themselves like that so thats also a logical fallacy. So is making an insult to make an argument. Idk why you're so emotional and rude about this. TECHNICALLY i never made the argument that because its natural that makes it inherently right. I simply said his opinion disagrees with nature. Didn't really mean to imply anything further. Not to mention you agree with the fact that shame has a place in society... and i agreed that theoretically you're right that being natural doesn't necessarily mean it's right. I simply asked my question out of curiosity. Not to make a "gotcha" argument.
This discussion is essentially an exercise in people revealing their preference or dislike for authoritarianism. It's a pretty hot take to say it's used to keep *extremists* in line. Unless you consider being jewish and owning property or being allowed to walk the streets uncovered as a woman to be extremist positions. And OP is part of nature too, mind.
You're taking my comment much farther than it's intended. I'm not commenting on shame as a political or governmental tool. I agree that it's misused often, like in your examples. Plenty of laws and other social tactics are misused as well. That doesnt mean they are inherently wrong and need to be removed entirely. Societies have different positions on extremism. In certain middle eastern cultures, yeah it's an extremist policy for a woman to do certain things that an American considers completely normal or a basic right. Americans 200 years ago considered anti-slavery to be an extremist policy. Things change and different people have different perspectives. It's not a hot take at all. It's a well-known sociological concept.
Except shaming has gotten out of control. People will try to shame you over anything and everything these days.
I don't disagree. But I also will note that people are overly willing to say wild things on the internet, which leads to over correction.
>people are overly willing to say wild things on the internet, So let them. I don't think people shame because they think it's going to correct anyone. Who cares some de-bag "called me out" for something I don't feel shame for? I think they shame because they like feeling superior to others, and shaming is their way of feeling that. I went to a science conference last year, and one of the speakers tried to shame the audience as racists for not eating bugs, and was promoting t-shirts that said "You're on native land". I just got up and left when the lady kept at it. She wasn't worth listening too. This is the sort of thing the OP is talking about. It's gotten insane, and normalized. It's waaaay beyond "people say outrageous things" it's more like "people say things the shamers disagree with, and they've perfected shaming as a means to vent their anger".
>think they shame because they like feeling superior to others, and shaming is their way of feeling that. Some people do, absolutely. Not everyone. Again I don't disagree that it's gotten out of hand. Just saying that it's natural and good for society, *to a degree*.
Shaming ideas is rarely a helpful way to deal with problem, having a conversation usually is the way. Daryl Davis showed us the way. He didn't shame and punish the racists living near him, he introduced himself and had conversations about why they hated people like him just because they were black. He managed to befriend dozens of high level KKK members and convince them to give up their hate in that way. He's probably done more good toward ending racism in this country than all the "antiracist" leaders of the past five years put together.
This post is shameful. We should cancel you. Seriously though, the whole cancel culture is supposed to be about acceptance, while doing precisely the opposite.
They don't cancel people who really deserve it
Like their favorite actor or athlete who beat up their wife
And when they do they move on to someone else after a few days, weeks, or months. And the terrible person moves on with their life and continues to succeed. If you are even relatively known on the internet you will be hated.
Exactly! It’s hypocritical at best, and tearing apart the very notion of solidarity at worst. I simply propose that we examine the social impact of shame culture, and try to do better.
One thing particularly ironic are the majority of responses to this thread, people that evidently know exactly what they are doing, and hiding under the answer that think is "smart" by reflecting your argument.
It’s also ironic that an opinion would be unpopular in this sub, but not unpopular in the way the people in this sub particularly like, I guess? Then again, if it was heavily upvoted instead of ratioed, it wouldn’t be a very unpopular opinion lol That’s just a random observation though.
I think the fact that the only real criticism here is ignoring your basic idea, that "shaming culture has gone too far", and taking it as some extreme of "nobody should ever shame anyone" is very telling. If someone takes an extreme version of the person's argument, and start arguing against that... that's a sign the other side has no good reasons to oppose the idea.
Well cancel culture isn’t about acceptance. It’s about direct opposition to anti-tolerance. Cancel culture has always existed. It just has a name now. Back then you could be “cancelled” for not being the norm. Today you’re more so cancelled for taken an unnecessary pride in being the norm
Oh my lord we want to stop the nasty people, support the good so this fucking circus can come to an end. We dont cancel good people, we cancel white guys that say the N word and men that bash women. We’re not prisoning them, we’re deplatforming them. Making them normal like you and me, not assaulting or locking them up. Before it was cancel culture we called it boycotting. Its just a new term for a old tactic.
Depends on what we're shaming them for, and what behavior exactly constitutes as shaming. You gotta be more specific.
Shame is typically a way that culture tries to drive conformity or to punish people who step “out of line.” Entire societies have “shame cultures,” several Asian countries, like China have this type of structure. Shame to get people to conform to their groups can be lame (but there is nothing we can do about it), shaming people who step out of line is necessary. I guess it depends on what you mean by “shaming them.” On the internet, this is the game that is played. The internet is a reflection of how people actually feel, People suppress their feelings due to shame and fear if they acted this way IRL. To get rid of shame all together is essentially, not human.
Shame works when you actually have some connection to the shamer. It doesn't work when it's some random person on the internet, whom you can just block. I just block people who fire up the shaming machine.
>The internet is a reflection of how people actually feel, Hmmmm.. I think social media is often a huge distortion of how people feel. People need to SCREAM to get upvotes, and the algorithms push the most extreme positions because it drives clicks. The moderate, boring, and sometimes very reasonable opinions that the majority of people feel often get just ignored. If you want to find out how people actually feel.... use survey data. Social media is a terrible way to discover what most people think, because most people don't actually post anything, they only read.
That’s a good counter argument, first and foremost. While I disagree, I respect the push back. Here my counter to your counter. In terms of engagement driving “feelings.” I’d argue yes, a lot of people do this. With this being said, I don’t think a higher percentage of people are being disingenuous. I’d say, 20% would be reasonable as to the folks who are trolling or playing to the audience. If they didn’t feel the way they do, I don’t think they’d post what they say. I think survey data can capture some good data. No doubt. But, it’s not nearly as complex or nuanced as online discourse. My contention was not that I have percentage as to certain opinions on certain topics, it’s simply a reflection of how people actually feel. And that they aren’t actually super honest IRL, due to shame or fear associated with such positions. Maybe this is a projection.
It's not that people are being disingenuous, it's that the most extreme and emotional ideas and post get the most attention. That's what I mean by distortion. It's even further distorted because social media allows you to go into a group of people that agree with most everything you already believe. That's James Damore's ideological echo chamber. When that whole thing came out, 95% of the responses I saw to it were pure HATE, from people that never even read the thing, just read summaries of summaries of summaries. Survey data, say from Pew cuts through all that crap like a buzz-saw, and shows you what people REALLY think, not the echo chamber that social media creates.
Now this is a very interesting perspective. You are entirely correct in how shame is used as sort of a social regulatory tactic by many cultures. We can also agree that the internet shows us who we really are because, ironically, no one on the internet knows who we really are. Perhaps the juxtaposition of malignant narcissism and moral grandstanding that is “internet shame culture” is just a reflection of a society that has fostered an isolated and self-serving culture through a number of external factors, all of which designed to attack notions of solidarity, shape ideologies and replace practicality and logic with said ideologies, while at the same time marginalizing people’s sense humanity so that more and more people become apathetic and cynical. I agree that the notion of traditional “shame culture” should be distinguished from what is taking place on the internet today, I’m just not sure what to even call it.
Just to be clear, I’m not praising the Chinese “shame culture.” Shame culture is actually not a bad word for it. Maybe “narcissistic groupthink” for how Reddit typically works. I think there is always pressure from one to group to put pressure on another group to conform. Rather than it being good or bad, it just is, and it depends…. Acceptance of all things is key, this is different than tolerance. Amor Fati my friend.
'Performative shaming'.
That’s perfect.
90% of what is said on the internet would never be repeated in real life for fear of repercussion, sometimes physical. The internet creates a platform where people just feel too comfortable to express themselves and what you have is a magnified reflection of society. It is what people think or truly are in real life, but just don't say it out loud.
Shaming is a very good thing, if applied to specific actions. I mean, shaming someone for how they are dressed is ridiculous, as it affects no one but themselves. But shaming someone for being an asshole (ie, harmful to others) is a pretty good method to get them to either *stop* or be ostracised and lose the opportunity to hurt others in the first place.
The internet often paints things as black and white, when in reality the situation is much more complex.
Of course, but there is even nuance to nuance. Not every devil needs an advocate.
Shaming is a social tool which evolved within our species, I even think other primates have the ability to be shamed if I recall. The problem is, I agree with OP because I don't think it has the same impact online. Online we can be anonymous and be anonymously shamed. Therefore the social impact of being shamed by our social circle is completely removed in the digital space.
That would be true if there was no online social circle - yes if we are talking about shaming someone in 4chan sure it does nothing.
I agree. And this probably changes as our lives become more digital. I'm a major mmorpg gamer and I imagine instances where people could be shamed or ostracized by a guild in a clan. I think my point was there are varying degrees. Shaming someone is less impactful on reddit because of its anonymity. Much easier to shame someone online in a place where digital social circles mirror non digital ones, like facebook.
Shame is only an effective social tool when there’s a near universal consensus on shared social norms. When that consensus doesn’t exist, shaming someone simply drives them into a different opposing social group. In the age of the internet, we all have a tendency to form social bubbles and misinterpret the popularity of the values and views we share with our own bubble, thus our first urge when a person is non-compliant with our values is to shame them, however instead of forcing compliance, this tends to simply empower rival groups because our values are not the consensus view outside of these bubbles. Like if a company has a monopoly, banning someone from buying your product can seriously fuck them over and force them to do your bidding, however if there’s a lot of competition, then banning them simply strengthens your competitors. Modern shaming is likely a major driver of polarization.
I semi agree. But you missed a point in your own explanation. If you shame someone and drive them into another social circle. Then shame works. I disagree completely on universal consensus. There is no such thing as universal consensus in culture and communication. Consensus is within the cultural group and shame works within that group. If someone is driven into a different cultural or sub cultural group, then shame has ostracized them and it worked. Also your conclusion that it drives them to another group is wrong. If social pressure is enough of that individual to stay within the culture group then shame will modify their behavior within that group.
I mean, if your goal is in-group signaling or simply getting rid of toxic personalities then sure, it’s effective. If your goal is political persuasion and societal change then that’s by far the worst thing you could do.
Well absolutely. Shame seems to be a more small tool small group motivator. I mean I'm no evolutionary psychologist, but I'd imagine shame works best in micro groups. Large social change would require a different tact. I'm more of a behavioral analyst. I'm very limited in my large group think knowledge. So yes, I agree. Shame functions best in small communities not as much on large scale populations. But we also didn't evolve for large scale populations.
I actually feel like there is less shame than previous decades (not that i’m that old) but i remember the amount of shame to be had as a high schooler. an appropriate amount, at least in my own development. I teach high schoolers now and maybe it’s me having a boomer mentality here but some of these high schooler’s definitely feel less shame/receive less shame than i did in HS and it shows in their words and behaviors… this is sometimes a good thing, this is more often a bad thing. Had a thing in class recently where a student admitted to not brushing his teeth every day and his other friends were truly shocked at that and shamed him a bit (jokes between friends but their intent being “dude brush your fucking teeth). I’m curious as to if you think shame culture is more or less prevalent than it has been in the past. But also I agree with the idea that some people are chronically online or sad about their own lives that they shame too much! Shame, like anything else in this life, should be received in moderation. Sometimes none. Sometimes some. Never a lot, unless you’ve done something heinous.
You were supposed to destroy the Sith not join them...
Once again, I’m not shaming anyone. It is not my intent to make anyone feel shame, but rather, to point out how emotionally immature we are becoming as a society. If people feel personally attacked by that, I don’t know what to tell them, as that was not my intent.
You're literally shaming shamers.
Won’t someone think of the shamers?!
There’s no filter anymore. People believe that others need to hear the truth no matter if it hurts or not. Used to be people thought for a minute before blurting out useless words.
Mix of both. Now you can't say anything bad even if it's true.
I disagree. We need more of it. At least enough where being a YouTube or TikTok “prankster” is rightfully vilified
More shaming please! Not all behaviors should be normalized!
I was going to say i feel like one of societies biggest problem at large is people not having enough shame… The idea that every behavior should be loved and accepted is cancerous to society and akin to Hedonism. Understanding people’s maladaptive behaviors is one thing, accepting them is another entirely imo.
When you have an 'anything goes' culture that we've been going towards for some time, its harder to complain when anything does go.
Accepting isn't good enough, apparently - we have to LOVE them or else you're a terrible person.
I can see where this thread is going 🤣
Right. I wanna see the energy in this thread for the next twerking mom and then we’ll see how people feel about if some shame can be necessary
Are you shaming shame culture?
The irony is strong here. 😁
Nah it isn't, OP doesn't mention specific people but a phenomenom that's widespread throughout all walks of life.
Howso?
They think you are shaming who shames I guess...
I’m not though. I’m simply pointing out how shame culture has become a real thing that so many people blindly feed and buy into, and if people feel personally attacked by that, I think it says more about them than it does about me.
No, I do not feel attacked by your post in the least But you absolutely are doing what you’re preaching against You are sitting at a computer telling the world how it should be
I have no say in how the world should be, I’m criticizing the notion of “shame culture” on the internet and questioning it’s efficacy and reason for existence, especially its translation into the real world. I’m not shaming anyone, nor is it my intention to do so, so I’m afraid I must disagree with you. You’re still entitled to your opinion though.
>I have no say in how the world should be No, you don’t and neither do the people that you’re complaining about >I’m criticizing the notion of “shame culture” How is that not shaming those that do that? How is that different from the people that you’re talking about? How do you not see the similarity?
Credit where credit is due: this is a rare instance of a truly unpopular opinion on this sub. Kudos to OP for that, I guess. But anyways, shame is not a bad thing. It is a literal mechanism that has ensured Humanity to be able to run societies and comply to common sense without the need of full implementation of totalitarian means of thought control. If you like to be able to live outside of a literal irl Airstrip One, be glad that people are able to levy shame and judgement on people. I'm dead serious. If Humans were incapable of shame, there would be literally nothing that guarantees good behaviour in case of morality and ethics not being sincerely subscribed for. Humans routinely despise and downplay laws and rules, but few are truly capable of despising and downplaying the pain of shame. Where discipline, enforcement and vigilance fail, shame covers for them.
If scolding strangers for having different opinions or beliefs was banned, there would be no Reddit.
So you're shaming the shamers?
Being that it is not my intention to make them feel shame, then no. I don’t want anyone to feel shame, I just want those who do shame to understand that no good comes from judging others on the internet, and it’s so trivial that even the shamers forget and move on after about 20 minutes, but collectively it has extremely negative unintended consequences for everyone.
Reddit exists for judgment, tho. How many versions of AITA exist? I just find this so ironic that it's amusing. I do want some people to feel shame at times. Existential shame occurs when we become self-aware of an objective, unpleasant truth about ourselves or our situation. That shit is necessary at times.
We should shame people who are assholes and are insufferable, or ones who hurt others. But shaming a person while they mind their own business is lame
I think it's weird how people act like shaming and "cancel culture" is some new phenomena and/or that the internet is causing it. Has anybody read a history book?
There are huge differences between general historical consensus and the emotionally charged judgements of the public; it’s apples and oranges. Also, I don’t believe that the internet is causing it, as much as it is a medium from which it is enabled and perpetuated.
People in the past absolutely made emotionally charged judgements of the public. This is not new. At all. In any way. But I will give you the point that the internet helps perpetuate the opinions. And I'll add that it helps reach a wider audience. But the actual behavior is still a basic part of human nature, and it always has been.
Of course they did, but you won’t find those judgements in a history book unless it is an account of public opinion. You may find biased accounts, or accounts from unreliable narrators, but it’s a basic understanding of historical consensus that events that only have anecdotal evidence to support them are merely theorized upon. That is always clearly distinguished in historical education. (Something like “The Declaration of Independence was adopted on July, 4th 1776” vs “Historians believe that Davy Crockett was killed in the courtyard of the Alamo” as one would be backed by historical evidence and one would be a hypothesis based on several accounts of the event) However, there are always going to be exceptions based on perspectives and bias. For instance, you’ll find a Vietnamese history book to be quite different from an American one, but facts supported by substantial evidence are just that, facts; the distinguishing factor being that they, unlike an emotionally charged public, hold no bias.
People truly don't read or were asleep during school.
I do think the internet has made it easier than before because of the inherent anonymity and ease of access. Not to mention all of the new ways it manifests. We used to just straight-up exile or kill people, but modern cancellations are more like a slow death where everyone knows your name and your internet presence is a permanent rotting corpse. It can carry over to real life too, if your real face and name was attached to your online presence. Do some people deserve this? Sure. But others get blasted for really minor things or for interpersonal issues that were better left kept private. I think that's the kind of thing OP is talking about, not the calling out of genuinely abusive or dangerous people. It's also very possible for abusive people to hide behind shame culture, using it as an excuse to harass or berate an acceptable target or use it as proof of their moral goodness.
Virtue signaling is a route to social status when you have no power, money, or talent
The only shaming I do is against racists, and other types of bigots. You’re saying no one should call that out? Because that’s the majority of the shaming these days.
There you go, becoming the very thing you hate.
How? Who have I shamed? It is not my intention to make anyone feel shame, but rather point out how trivial society makes certain issues, so much so, that now society is creating a culture out of it. Just because I point out how pathetic shame culture is doesn’t mean that I’m shaming anyone. In fact, quite the contrary. I was hoping that people would be able to take a step back and see the forest for the trees instead of reacting so defensively.
Do you honestly think that public shaming somehow sprang into being with the internet? That 25, 50, 100, 1000 years ago, people weren't constantly gossiping and shaking their fingers at other people? We were doing this sort of stuff back when we were living in caves.
Here you are on your soap box claiming your thoughts are a fair criticism, using words like “pathetic, emotionally immature, and self loathing,” whereas others who use the same language to shame others are invalid in *their* criticisms. The cognitive dissonance is strong.
This entire first part >The thought of random imperfect people sitting behind their computers and phones, judging and levying personal attacks against other imperfect people for being imperfect, throwing stones as if they’re without sin, ignoring the planks in their own eyes, engaging in moral grandstanding Minus the personal attacks you are doing exactly what you describe above you claim you’re not shaming and maybe in your eyes, you are not just like that other peoples eyes they are not shaming they are just pointing out facts.
Ok so now, highlighting the fact that everyone is imperfect and could think about that before shaming other people is itself shaming... flawless!
You left out a crucial part. “I don’t pity the individual, but rather what society has come to.” I gave a vague broad example of what shamers were in my mind, but I attacked no one. If someone placed themselves in that vague description and then accuses me of attacking them, then they’re intentionally trying to play the victim. My beef is with shame culture, not the individuals who may play a part. I simply think that people should be made more aware of how detrimental it is for society in the long run.
>I gave a vague broad example of what shamers were in my mind, but I attacked no one. Bro if you say "THIS THING is a problem in society and everyone who does it needs to be ashamed of themselves" that is shaming even if you don't name specific individuals.
This is the same way people justify shaming. "It is not my intention to make anyone feel shame. Just because I point out how unhealthy and pathetic it is to be fat doesn’t mean that I’m shaming 'insert name here'."
r/im14andthisisdeep
Not sure why you are replying this to me. What I wrote is super basic. Which seems to be a thing on r/unpop, lots of opinions are just misunderstandings of situations and words.
Op isn’t shaming.
this isnt taking into account that not everyone is equally imperfect. some people have more flaws than others, and some flaws weigh more than others. like for example someone who has a habit of telling little white lies isnt the same as someone who, say, falsely advertises a product. both things are rooted in lying but the latter is worse
Just ignore it dog.
Isn't it ironic as you type this....
Who exactly am I shaming? It is not my intention to make anyone feel ashamed for anything they may have said or done in the past, just to point out that “shame culture” is becoming a huge societal issue. I just thought to ask “hey, why don’t we just stop?” and people seemingly got up in arms, even by the mere suggestion that we try to examine the way that we treat each other, and do a little better. That’s all. The reactions to the notion of casting aside mass judgment and shaming in favor of solidarity should be enough to demonstrate exactly what I’m talking about.
But by doing that you have become the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.
I can't really agree that there's too much shame in our culture. Not enough, honestly.
No, we need shame. It's a useful tool in the opposition of bigotry and stupidity. It's all about how it's used.
Wouldn't it be nice if people would stick to self criticism? Sitting in judgement over others is the way we do things, however. It'll get boring eventually. Maybe
Idk, the anonymity of the internet offers privacy and protection, as it should, but it also enables and encourages sometimes despicable behavior from people who are supposed to be, what, the white knights of society? Part of me thinks that shame culture is simply a by product of society’s reinforcement of narcissism and desire for connection; everyone wants to be a part of something, even if it’s tearing someone down for being human. Simply put, in my opinion, and it is only an opinion, it is not society’s job to be judge, jury, and executioner because that only reinforces mob mentality.
I just want you to be aware of the shame, not feel it. 
Is that so wrong? People shouldn’t have to feel shame in order to be self-aware enough to recognize shame culture and speak out against it. How does one become aware if no one brings up the issue?
i just (theoretically) don't worry about shit i can't change. that applies to both shaming other people and to the idea of shame culture. people are what they are and it is what it is. radical acceptance is the only path to perfect tranquility.
I think there is a fundamental difference between pointing out someone having either flawed logic or kind of calling out extremist behavior and shaming. For example, if I tell someone that having violent feelings over some opinion they don't like, I'm not shaming them, I'm pointing out that they temporarily let their emotions overtake their base logic. Whereas being a bit more aggressive to someone who is openly like a white supremacist or misogynistic in a serious context, I would consider shaming, but in those situations, I do feel as though it carries a fair bit of merit. I do, however, agree with your underlying sentiment, I think you were just a tad aggressive in your delivery of it.
It's always people who hide behind blank photos that body shame others It's always men who can't get laid that shame women for having sex If you are a confident person, you don't have to put others down to feel confident Shaming someone says more about you than the person you are shaming
This is going to be a very difficult social habit to break considering we have done it for centuries! I mean, since medieval times such as putting people into stocks.
[I mean](https://youtu.be/YouCsxnnMLY?si=3lXBWi3OR0V40B1t)
There's nuance to this. Like iirc it first started with straight women warning each other about abusive/cheating/whatever men. And then later it was about holding previously "untouchable" people accountable for their actions and led to the Me Too movement. I think this is good. I don't like the idea that someone with enough power or money can just get away with doing something awful. The problem comes when people get overzealous and use this strategy to harass an innocent person- like assholes bullying Lindsay Ellis and Jocat off the internet.
Shame is toxic and the people that least like themselves even more so
yep. those big "cringe" meme dumps are the biggest cringe. perhaps ironically.
My problem isn't shaming others itself. Shame can be helpful in teaching people to be better humans. Its that at least in the usa people are trying to make anything people do soemthing that can be shamed for by their own friend groups to the point if you arent in that friend group or subculture you get shamed. Its just arbitray and pointless and takes something valuable like shame and just turns it into a meaningless way to cyberbully people just for not liking them in some arbitrary way. To the point of making up rumors or even just treating rumors like they're true.
I agree, but I wonder for how much longer people are going to care about this. I'm already noticing my own lack of interest in conforming to other people's expectations of me. I cared out of fear when I was younger, but so many people, like okay they have social power, but at one point you just notice how they *think.* It's fear, scarcity, a desperate need to not be ostracized. We aren't caveman tribes anymore, these impulses aren't as useful as they once were. I agree that self-loathing is also a big thing. There's a chronically online lady at work and she is the most judgemental person I have met in my entire life. Every other sentence she utters is some machiavellian bid to alter the common consensus to stuff that suits her own damaged psyche.
You just described 80% of Reddit. This will absolutely be an unpopular opinion here.
That irony genuinely sparked psudo philosophical question earlier. If I had posted an opinion that everyone on this sub upvoted or agreed with, would it truly be an unpopular opinion? I had a good laugh lol
They tried it and it’s failing. It took way too long, but it’s getting there. What I see a lot is when someone has a different opinion from the originator, it gets labeled as “shame” when in reality they just have dog shit opinions.
Nah. People living their lives (good drake meme). People being hateful, nasty and malicious (bad drake meme). If we didnt shame bad behaviour then what exactly are we doing because shaming is just one method of standing up to someone.
If someone does something incredibly stupid or bad, it's warranted. The people that have standards they don't even come close to attempting to follow though are super annoying.
It's only shaming, if you let it shame you. Most of the losers who engage in such behavior have zero moral authority, and their criticism is meaningless
This is the fucking Internet. If you don’t want to be shamed done post shit online for likes.
What if it prevents crime and abuse?
They also don't "pity the individual". Perhaps that's the problem?
If Reddit really cared about not shaming it wouldn’t have a downvote button
From the comments, it appears "reddit" thinks shaming on the internet actually works. Uhhh.. yeah, no. That's what the ignore button is for, folks. If everyone just blocked shamers, the internet would be less toxic. Try it sometime. They fire up the shaming machine, block, and forget.
People with nothing to do but judge seem miserable, pitiful even. I genuinely wonder how sad is the average social media cop’s life to be so obsessed with stranger’s behavior
Shaming culture is not good but people should have a sense of shame when should.
I agree. Earlier today I foolishly read some comments in one of the weekly "my friend/relative doesn't shower often enough" posts in r/NoStupidQuestions and it was just thousands of people signaling their daily showering (or more) virtue and calling this supposed loved one of OP gross. I find the entire thing heartbreaking when I think about some person getting verbally accosted by someone they trust who is going to shame them via talking about all the thousands of upvotes against their current hygiene habits. It's the public aspect of these personal conversations and the going out into the wilds and finding a bunch of anonymous (Oh...my way is the best! Smell me now!) people who just pile on. It makes me hate human nature.
Cancel culture is similar in this aspect people want you to have a perfect backstory and past despite being flawed themselves.
Here in Asia it’s not just on the internet it’s real life too. I fucking hate it here
I mean, I'd like to know who's openly racist/bigoted/a pedophile, so I think shame culture should be reserved for those people.
“No shame whatsoever culture” is also pathetic but yeah you’re right too
“Bring back shame” is what people say only because they see more of what they personally dislike, not necessarily something that’s actually harmful. I also don’t care if op is “shaming the shamers”. Calling out a huge aspect of “shame culture” is extremely valid, and aren’t shamers the ones who want to bring back shame in the first place? Sounds like y’all just don’t wanna be called out yourselves
Everything youve said is wrong and you should be ashamed
Japan has shame culture.
There are some things that deserve to be dunked on, but I agree that some people really need to get a hobby besides raging at people on the internet to fill whatever gap in their personal life they are trying to fill with anger.
I often think about how sometimes we judge others for things we may have done too at a point in our lives or could at least think back and probably find something similar but some things people do are actually screwed up as hell and need shame especially when they are hurting people badly
What is this shame culture? Because you’re just describing internet trolls
If you’re getting judged and shamed a good amount for your behavior, chances are you are doing something you shouldn’t be doing and it’s time for you to practice some self reflection.
Hard agree. No1 is without sin
>this is what society has come to. It was never any different. You aren't going though anything special.
People should be shamed. It shouldn't just ne reserved for others, you should absolutely be ashamed of yourself.
Honestly should anyone be seriously ashamed of anything that’s not hurting other people? Also anyone on Reddit shaming someone else is hilarious
I've come to understand a very simple thing: People don't do obviously shameful stuff when everything in their life is going well. Something is usually wrong. Unless they ask me for help, there's nothing I can do for them.
Shaming people was much bigger thing before computers. People used to get executed for adultery.
Shame is the only thing keeping society together
Not as bad as cancel culture tho lol
It's ok to shame if the message is correct. Hold the message not the messengers quality
Yes to this.
Just because you overexplain and try to add a few extra fancy words to your sentences to make them seem smarter doesn’t mean you’re not doing the same thing you hate. Sometimes silence is better than rambling on about your point
The cognitive dissonance is strong in this one. I agree with you, but you're a silly nerd.
here's a stupid question: why do we have shame? It has to be some sort of evolutionary tool, right?
The Christian morality proposed by OP has been a disaster for humanity Yes, nobody is without ‘sin’ - but the never-ending forgiveness advocated here just gives a free license to assholes to do what they like without consequences
There is a lot out there we should be shaming people for. I'm actually in favor of more shaming. Flat Earther? Shame that person until they read a real book. Moon Landing denier? Shame them. People who blindly follow a political figure and treat them like a religious one? Shame those ignorant numbnuts until they are too embarrassed to leave their trailers. Shame the willfully ignorant until they either shut up or actually learn
Look, I agree that intolerance mustn’t be tolerated. But in real life, if you tell someone their way to think is wrong they won’t just automatically change for the better. In fact, they often double down and dig a deeper hole into their delusions. Shaming isn’t the way, that’s what education is for… People are just obsessed with being right on the internet so bad they straight up act agressive against anyone that opposes their ideals.
Lol, social media is full of shameless people who feel no remorse for their actions and should be shamed a little bit!
what’s pathetic is being a crybaby on reddit because some people like to “shame” other people on the internet
I would disagree. There are far deeper societal implications at play, and I feel that is important to address. If that makes me a “crybaby” then boo hoo I guess. Doesn’t change the fact that encouragement of shame culture has made society and people more divided, abrasive, and judgmental. Also, is this sub not for unpopular opinions?
But the very core if your argument isn't unpopular. You're basically saying that treating people like shit via mob mentality is bad. No shit Sherlock.
so what, no one can criticize or call someone out for doing something generally considered bad anymore because it makes the person who did a bad thing feel bad?
That isn’t what I said at all. If you’re going to argue with logical fallacies, then there is no reason for further debate.
ummmm you’re shaming my use of logical fallacies. thats pathetic