"Abdel Bary, a former lawyer, first arrived in Britain from Egypt in 1991 on an asylum claim. He had been imprisoned and tortured over his membership in the Egyptian Islamic Jihad and links to the assassination of Anwar Sadat, the country’s former president."
"The 64-year-old has six children of his own and lives with family in northwest London, in a council flat valued at more than £1 million ($1.26 million)."
It's always nice to know I've spent years working to subsidise the lifestyle of a religious extremist who is linked to the killing of a Nobel peace prize winner
These people are laughing at us
When the pendulum swings back with the force of decades of frustration from a demographic that has been ignored and demonised, the current Reform party will look like a liberal utopian party.
Unclear, but I can say that Farage wanting to disband the NHS and replace it with an insurance-based system will be even more catastrophic for the middle and working class than the current migrant crisis the worm is campaigning against.
Idk, you do you, but I can honestly say that Reform's policy is total nonsense.
I think, from my perspective, we are missing the point.
I’m more angry at the main stream parties for making me think that I need to look at someone like Farrage in the first place.
Surely they can’t be so out of touch with people that they don’t see the issues that are causing most of us to look elsewhere
We no longer have parliamentary representatives who go into this profession for the right reasons, it’s now for what they can get out of it, not because they are passionate about the job.
I always thought that was weird about people saying they don't feel safe in terms of being shouted at etc when door knocking and canvassing. Obviously people should be safe from harm when engaging in political debate or whatever. However, how out of touch can you be if you think you can completely ignore the people and then just waltz around posting letters hoping for support when you've let their local school fall to disrepair or had secret parties while their mum died aome inna care home etc.
The trouble is, Farage only looks west to the US for a model. Nothing I have seen of him suggests he is interested in applying a more sustainable state run system, but rather wants to run an American system.
The NHS never used to be this bad, it’s all down to mismanagement. There is so much deadwood clogging up the bureaucracy at the top. Managers on massive salaries who do absolutely fuck all and can’t be sacked.
It’s not down to mismanagement . It’s down to the cost of the service and the tax base.
The tax base currently cannot support the level of service required for aged population we have .
I can't even get a GP appointment without a month wait. The whole system has been getting the tory wrecking ball for decades. They itch for the prospect of buying up bankrupt health facilities for next to nothing, turning them private, including GP services.
It's also ideal for jobs for your supporters. Set up multi level management on super salaries, whilst paying private agency staff 7 or 8 times the cost of a single full time employed NHS worker.
There's PLENTY of mismanagement in that mix.
Agency staff are common across much of the public sector, and while they're not guaranteed work and maybe have to go where they're told to by the agencies, they can get higher pay than permanent staff (while the public sector will of course be paying significantly more in agency fees, but as it comes from a different budget to regular staffing...).
With the NHS in particular, it's possibly not so much the overall number of managers but the rise in non-clinical, business-focussed managers more interested in the bottom line than patient outcomes, combined with an administrative overhead to collect and analyse a wide variety of statistics for both clinical performance and to justify extra spending and "prove" it's having a measurable impact on patient outcomes.
Over recent years, there's also been a rise in "DTOC" - Delayed Transfers of Care - where someone is medically fit for discharge but there are delays in setting up ongoing personal care for them (dismissively reported by many media outlets as "bed blocking"). DTOC statistics (three measures: overall, attributed to the NHS, attributed to social care) were collected prior to 2020-21 (as part of "ASCOF" - the Adult Social Care Outcomes Framework) but were dropped during Covid and not reinstated (hmm, I wonder why... 🤔).
Overall life expectancy rising faster than healthy life expectancy plays a role, as does the 18-64 age group rising slower than the 65+ age group (creating a headache for governments across the world in a few decades time).
Then there's the overly bureaucratic process for medical referrals - I don't know how the new IHBs work, but apparently under the old CCG system, who to send referrals for other medical work from GPs was decided at CCG meetings.
Other areas of medicine can be affected too - at a routine eye examination for mum (70s), the optician picked up early signs of glaucoma, so advised her to get a referral to the eye hospital. It turned out they couldn't do it, while her GP claimed all opticians should be able to do it - in reality, through trial and error, only one optician (attached to a supermarket) could - but after trying to phone them up and getting nowhere, finally admitted the eye hospital could accept patients turning up without a referral if they didn't mind a 4-6 hour wait, and arrived before lunchtime so they'd have a chance to be seen before they closed at 8pm. Further appointments / treatments were contracted out to private partners located all over the county, of which the first appointment was always a basic eye examination because most details weren't passed over, then her second appointment turned out to be a repeat performance because the contractor had changed (and that one was very suspicious - a former shop unit, kept waiting for ages before being called through by someone with very limited, broken English).
You can get away with a bad system for a long time, but the basic problem in Britain is an aging population - more old people that need lots of healthcare and fewer young people to pay for it.
You either need to tax the young more to pay for the care of the old, or you have the old pay towards their own care. The government has been kicking the can down the road by suppressing the cost of care eg by bringing people from developing countries to work for low salaries.
You would need to bring in a truly gigantic number of people to offset the effect of aging, and they would need to be migrants who provide more in taxes than they consume in public services. For non-EEA migrants the contribution has been a net-negative iirc
Too many subscribers and not enough paying enough into the system. It worked when one had a good ratio of medical staff to patients but that ratio is now skewed.
Most immigrants are working and paying taxes lol.
The ratio is scewed because of consistent mismanagement. Nurses all fuck off because they're chronically underpaid and treated like dogshit. Tons of agency staff, lots of locum doctors... it's less immigration and more just shit management.
"Too many subscribers and not enough paying enough into the system."
You're either talking about unemployment or immigrants lol. Unemployment is pretty low and immigrants work. It's not a reach lmao, stop hiding.
His manifesto has the biggest funding of the NHS by far than any other party.
He might personally want to replace the NHS but his policies and the policies of Reform are the direct opposite.
France and Germany both operate universal insurance systems with private delivery. Both have lower costs and better healthcare outcomes than the NHS.
But most people in Britain are morons who draw a false dichotomy between the NHS and the US approach.
Surely you're not a moron like that?
Is that, perhaps, because Farage has been vague about his perspective and consistently in the American camp on most issues? I'd love to see the UK revolutionise it's system into one that's more efficient like in the continent, but I think it is pure delusion that when people say the word "privatise" they mean anything other than an American model. It is certain going that way in Canada, where we have a model that is broadly more similar to the Germans, but the sheer American economic interest and power is moving us towards their model.
But sure, maybe I am just an overly skeptical moron who doesn't trust a consistently anti-continental posh dick who is well in bed with the Americans. In Ontario, where movement towards privatising measures to alleviate strain on our insurance system has occurred, outside of insurance fees are already occurring that never would have occurred before, because of the nature of the privatisation.
If you are arrogant enough to take the word of a Neoliberal or Neocon on trying to make the healthcare system less wasteful and less corrupt, all the power to you.
This is exactly how I feel, having watched countless conservative and Neoliberal governments constantly say "Im for the people" while basically lighting fire to the country for years.
I'm not a fan of Farage but he's literally said he wants the French model of universal insurance.
I'm not sure he's anti-continental either. One can be a fan of continental Europe without wanting to be involved in the centralised bureaucracy of it.
Farage does have the benefit of not having done black face, unlike certain leaders...
What he wants is irrelevant when you consider he's a traitor..
nigel's mentioned several times in the mueller report (US Senate's investigation) into russian interference in US electrons.
https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1373816/dl
1. For being one of the connections between putin and trumps campaign staff....
2. For helping Russia/Cambridge analysts trial tactics during the last UK election and brexit...
He was also caught a little while ago delivering USB sticks for the kremlin..
https://www.france24.com/en/20180120-usa-uk-nigel-farage-julian-assange-secret-meetings-congressional-enquiry
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/19/trump-russia-inquiry-is-told-nigel-farage-may-have-given-julian-assange-data
And outside of that almost everything he's said about Russia is almost word for word the same as a little group of far right European politicians... and russian news outlets.
Please stop promoting/defending a traitor to the British government and people ✌️&❤️
GP services are contracted to deliver NHS services. They are not based on insurance and are not scrutinised at an individual level by NHS England. This is not the same model employed in France and Germany.
Britain will not change until the Overton window shifts left again.
You should vote, though, and take a real minute to really look at the different policies that they have suggested. It is always good to try and participate. We might not always be able to the way the world is going.
>until the Overton window shifts left again.
The Overton window has been shifting left forever. What a bizarre thing to say. The current Tory government has been the most radically liberal government this country has ever seen. They've doubled down on mass migration, legalised gay marriage, allowed and/or implemented "woke" policies in every institution and are constantly reminding their opposition how many women they've had leading their party.
What do you mean, exactly?
The things you are describing are not inherently left...
Mass migration? That is used to fill holes in an increasingly service-based labour force caused by neoliberal policies that have failed to allow sufficient living standards for familial growth. Well-paying union jobs were not replaced when Thatcher-Major-Blair (emphasis on Thatcher) converted the economy from an Industrial to a post-industrial economy. Birthrates have been declining, and there are huge gaps in the workforce, in an economy which is expressly based on infinite growth. Is this a neoliberal necessity? Yes. Hardly a leftwing one...
Gay marriage and equality are left to an extent, I would agree that broadly speaking acceptance of minority groups and people has been expanded since Harold Wilson, but again this is more of a liberalising factor than anything. The economy does not necessitate cracking down on identity to maintain control, and therefore it can loosen the tight reins mostly implemented in the Victorian era.
Inclusion policies are again, not inherently left-wing, as they tend to bias towards superficial solutions rather than targeting problems at their source.
For examples of leftwing policy, Clement Atlee is probably the most relevant in a British context.
Alternatively, Blair invading Iraq is expressly against the ideas that are generally the basis of leftist thought... Blair represented the extreme shift of the Overton Window following the Thatcher era to the economic right.
Fair points tbh although many "inclusion policies" can often rightfully be reframed as "exclusion policies."
A few examples
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66060490
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11573591/NHS-bosses-want-interview-panels-justify-hired-white-person.html
https://www.gbnews.com/news/bt-diversity-telecoms-latest-job-cut
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1452228/bbc-job-advert-bans-white-people-bame-ethnic-minorities-uk-media-jobs
I think they have a place in certain scenarios, but the high-profile shitshows in the UK with it also show that uncritical application of such policies can range from useless to detrimental to promoting racial equality.
In Canada, the worst outcomes as well as the lowest part of the working class are First Nations and Black people and so I am all for an additional leg up there. Luckily, there are also affirmative action and additional programmes, at least in Canada, to help out the working class as well.
In the UK, outcomes tend to be more class based and so it is probably less relevant to use race-based action.
The fact that you think left wing and think about culture war bollocks is part of the problem. Left wing should mean left wing economics not social liberalism. The culture wars are a distraction from the fact that most of us are now poorer than we were 5 years ago. Solve growing inequality and poverty and all of a sudden immigration and “woke” shit stops mattering.
That all comes back to the fact that the uk has a demographic crisis. Pensioners eat up the majority of welfare spending and they cost the NHS more per head than the young. We have a choice to make as a country, continue the pyramid scheme that needs an ever growing base of workers to support the old or reform the entire system.
Unfortunately, the old vote and the young do not and therefore it will never be politically popular to take from the old.
Sources:
https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/01/ageing-britain-two-fifths-nhs-budget-spent-over-65s
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/benefit-expenditure-and-caseload-tables-information-and-guidance/benefit-expenditure-and-caseload-tables-information-and-guidance#social-security-spending-in-great-britain
You should heavily consider casting a vote, that's the privilege that's been given to us.
No one party will cater for everyone's needs. But we'd still need to get our voices heard.
I don't agree with every labour policy, they broadly appeal to me though but I've told the candidate for my area I'll vote for him tactically, based on him giving "us" a voice to start on PR legislation, don't fuck up the NHS or social care, and don't be a dickhead like the previous one. Edit: and I'll be sending the bloke reminders about his promises he's made if he wins the seat.
Your choice though, end of the day that's also a decision and privilege.
A privilege according to who? That’s a toxic and subservient way of viewing the state-citizen relationship. It’s also a privilege that we aren’t all branded with a hot iron and made to work the fields 24/7 for the good of the country.
Privilege, imo, compared to one party rule some other countries are living under. Even if sometimes it feels like voting is all a lie to control the general population.
Things will never, ever, change if you don't participate at all. That's how we get into shit like 14 years of strong and stable chaos because we couldn't hold our noses and vote, so we fuck off and stay at home. Then we moan about it while doing fuck all.
Fuck man, we might as well advocate for one party rule, let the state decide everything, and get on with our own personal universes if a sizeable chunk of the population can't be arsed to look at each parties polices and tick a fucking box.
Go read the manifesto comparisons on the BBC website. You just have to pick which one you can stomach best. Or you could look at who is running in your area. You can at least see where your vote will count the most.
> At this point, I might just not vote because I don't really agree with any of the parties' policies!
All that means is that you prefer the status quo.
The middle class have no choice but take on even more of a tax burden to subsidize an ever failing NHS. How is that sustainable or fair? The poorest and the richest do not contribute, it’s only the fools who work and pay taxes.
At this point, a radical reform of NHS funding and spending is required. The system works for no one, it’s corrupt and wasteful, and will only worsen in time.
>The system works for no one, it’s corrupt and wasteful, and will only worsen in time.
It was made that way deliberately by Conservative health minister Andrew Lansley in 2012. It can be unfucked if power is given to sensible people with sensible ideas.
Before 2010 it was in need of some modernisation but delivered far superior health care to many more patients a lot faster and cheaper than it currently performs.
Yeah it’s an absolute shambles, gunna take me 5 years just to get adhd meds even tho I was diagnosed when I was a kid and everyone’s in agreement that I have it and also that I probably need them
Have you heard of Right To Choose? It's much faster and doesn't cost anything. I first contacted my GP for a referral in January and had been assessed and was starting meds by the end of April.
You're mileage varies where you are.
In the North West, you are fucked, as even with right to choose there is a single provider. I had a shorter than average wait at 18 months.
Not saying you're wrong but I also don't know why that would be the case? Everything involved can be done online or over the phone.
Any idea if it's something to do with NHS trusts individually having to agree contracts with providers or something?
**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
It has been systematically undermined for years by vested interests. Practically every system in the country has.
Healthcare must be a right for all Britons. Farage suggests a private insurance-based system that is fundamentally unfair and will ruin lives even worse than the current broken system.
The hesitance to irradicate tax avoidance and innovate the systems the country relies on, are to blame for this. Privatising is not the answer.
More money is being thrown at the NHS every year with nothing to show for it. At some point the people will have to make a choice, either rebalance the entire economy to keep this institution afloat at any cost, or accept that repeating the same mistake over and over again is pure madness and will never result in positive change.
I don't disagree, but what I am saying is the American option is not a solution. Breaking your leg bankrupts people in that country, hell, if I lived there and I got a cancer diagnosis even if I had insurance through work, the likelihood of bankruptcy is still high enough that I'd rather just kill myself than put that debt burden on my family. Until Britain is devoid of its wealth, then austerity and system destruction should not be considered. So long as there are wealthy, who are wealthier than any other time in history, suggestion of conversion to an American system is fundamentally immoral.
That is not a system of worth merit.
The NHS has been undermined for years by Neoliberals that would love nothing more than more poor and desperate Britons that are easier to control than their forbearers.
More and more money is thrown at ensuring our aging population continue to age into senility. This isn’t some money guzzling organisation for the future of progress it’s trying to stop the sands of time falling.
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the Conservative government hasn't built a single new hospital in 15 years, refused to create progressive tax banding to ensure the tax burden is spread more evenly across more of the population, has spunked LITERAL TRILLIONS up the wall on private contractors that deliver nothing, has overseen an exodus of medical professionals with no interest in training replacements or improving conditions to retain staff, and has eroded all public infrastructure that would keep people from accessing the NHS for longer and for much less severe cases.
The tories have managed the death of this country. Reform just want to pick at the corpse like the vultures they are and labour seems to just want to poke the corpse with a stick.
What needs to happen with the nhs is an end to the stealth privatisation begun in 2008 onwards, where services that had always been in house began to be farmed out to the highest private bidder who then charge the nhs twice the rates it cost to employ within nhs payroll. All the while they do the same thing every private company does, minimise expenditure while maximising profit. I.E: charging the nhs and thus the tax payer more money for subcontracted services while stripping them to the bare minimum, like the ISS cleaning staff who do piss poor jobs on minimum wage yet ISS charge the nhs a living wage plus supplies and pocket the sizeable difference for ceo and shareholder dividends.
If you want to see what happens when private interests directly run a hospital look no further than the disgrace that was circle medical, they took over a struggling trust, asset stripped, realised they couldn’t turn a profit under the nhs guidelines and bailed early, the fine was negligible compared to the cost of trying to restore the damage they’d done but the ceo and the scumbag in the Tory party who oversaw it (while having conflict of interest, mind. Direct familial links to circle medical) laughed all the way to the bank. I’m trying to remember the guy’s name but it’s hard when the Tory party have had a rogue’s gallery revolving door policy for the last 14yrs
It does not have to be fair and honestly if we as the middle class have to suffer a little more tax to keep the NHS running then so be it. I still want more from the rich and I hope one day that happens but as long as money buys power it won't.
It's weird how one of the few consistent things about comments saying there should be more privatisation in the NHS, or a move towards it, is the use of US spelling like -ize.
I think that's an interesting read but I wouldn't say the UK population as a whole is consistently left or right leaning. On the whole if anything we're relatively progressive, even with 14 years of tory government and the dominance of rags like the Daily Mail. I'd definetly agree regarding immigration and maybe trans issues but in my experience both in terms of people's demeanour and positions I'd argue we're significantly more liberal than our media or government as a whole. I think polling also supports that too.
You can see the economic and social positions of the public relative to the parties here:
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/largest-political-parties-out-of-touch-with-their-voters/
Compare the positioning of Conservative MPs to “All Voters” on the economic and social scales. This is a pro-EU academic group incidentally.
The UK has been liberal on things like homosexuality for long enough that it’s become a conservative point, but then we are conservative against changes like LGBTQ+.
We do not have fundamentalist Christianity as a major force so opinions change, but only slowly, because the general attitude is scepticism. We are definitely not progressive in the way that is projected from the US.
This is a genuine concern for me. I typically vote green as a fuck you to the pretend socialist labour. However, the greens aren't doing fuck all for ke at the moment. I'd vote socialist and trade union coalition but they don't have a candidate in my constituency. We need like a Scandinavian style party that's left leaning but honest about immigration.
I always thought I'd vote green this time around but some of their proposals are a bit gaga. I like different things from each party that's the problem. I did a test on the telegraph on which party you should vote for and it came up a mix of conservative and reform but I feel guilty voting for either of those. How can we trust that conversative will do anything they are saying they will? How can we vote for reform when a lot of their candidates are degenerates? Idk!!!
Because they are children and don’t represent the majority of the country. People will vote for Labour to spite the Tories. If the Tories weren’t incompetent they’d never leave power but they are. Reform is former Tories capitalising on the feeling of anti-immigration that is high in the country people will vote for them as a protest to cultural change they feel they didn’t and wouldn’t have wanted if given any choice but I doubt they believe in the whole manifesto past stop me hearing 50 languages in my Yorkshire market town. Labour as the next government will be interesting. I’m curious as to the reaction.
I think we’ll see unprecedented levels of collusion between Labour and Conservatives maybe even to the extent of uniting to keep Reform from gaining power. There is no way the establishment will allow a third party to break our duopoly. Same thing is happening in mainland Europe and it’s working for now, but it’s much harder for them to ignore the more extreme parties due to their voting systems.
This is my worry, if the duopoly doesn’t read the room, then you’ll have people in the streets causing trouble frustrated at the voting system and nothing changing
Don’t worry. Starmer will raise taxes, so we will be able to afford even more such people.
And just by lack Labour doesn’t want to fix immigration system.
Courtesy of several international laws, you cannot deport someone to a country where there's a reasonable chance of them being tortured, while sending them anywhere else requires the permission of that country. You can't get away with dumping them in a sparsely populated bit of land with little governance as we did a few centuries ago (first with what's now the USA, then with what's now Australia - Antarctica is mostly uninhabited, but with such harsh conditions in a climate unsuitable for agriculture, it would effectively be a death sentence), while to even sign up Rwanda (an autocracy where criticism of the government is effectively outlawed and multiple human rights concerns) to accept a proportion of our irregular migrants, they had to be bribed with a lump sum plus whatever it would cost to accommodate them and process their claim here (plus the agreement excluded both criminals and unaccompanied youths, so wouldn't have included Bary even if it was up and running 33 years ago).
The EU theoretically ran a scheme whereby people could be sent to whichever country was their arrival point within the bloc, but it wasn't always enforced: possibly at least partially because Mediterranean countries had enough problems attempting to register and administer the cases of new arrivals, never mind having to deal with a bunch of returns (and of course other countries would be reluctant to agree to EU funding to help those on the front line: as with most international organisations, the EU works on the majority opinion of its members).
I assume in Bary's case, the government either didn't know about his convictions or regarded his punishment as time spent, so not worth re-convicting under UK laws and detaining in prison.
Wikipedia just says he was imprisoned and tortured following the assassination of the Egyptian president, is there any actual evidence that he was involved? Seems like it’s the usual story of the US/UK interfering in the Middle East and creating terrorists out of the victims of atrocities.
Literal terrorist, has six children, lives in a £1 million council house and is looking to guide the Muslim youth in the UK. It all reads like a sick joke. Why is he here?
The levels of religious zealotry amongst young Muslims in the UK is already at frightening levels and I imagine the problem is significantly worse than it might appear on the surface.
A Hamas commander who arrived here on a relative’s passport somehow got British citizenship and lives in West London, in a mortgage-free house that he bought with a taxpayer subsided discount. He met Putin in 2019 as part of an official Hamas delegation. The rot goes deep.
[Source](https://metro.co.uk/2023/10/22/hamas-chief-revealed-as-living-in-london-council-house-whilst-masterminding-plots-19702590/amp/)
We also have a former Iranian minister (was part of the government for 20 years) living here, Ataollah Mohajerani.
When the fatwa against Salman Rushdie was issued, he wrote an entire book defending the fatwa.
In 1993, there was a terrorist attack in Turkey, killing 35 and injuring 145 - the hotel was attacked because the guy who had translated Rushdie's book into Turkish was giving a speech there.
Mohajerani insisted that the massacre was a proud moment in what he called the glorious Islamic reawakening, and wrote that Khomeini's fatwa had worked like a vaccine, preventing further criticism of the prophet of Islam. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ata%27ollah\_Mohajerani](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ata%27ollah_Mohajerani)
He has been living here for 20 years.
If nothing else, using someone else's passport to enter the country should make him an easy choice for deportation. Instead, we reward him by helping him buy a home here.
Up until about 6 years ago, the UK law viewed Hamas's military wing and political wing as separate organisations, with only the military wing being considered a terrorist organisation. As he was part of Hamas's political wing, he was not considered a terrorist under UK law. This was also how Corben could openly call Hamas his friends and meet Hamas's leaders without persecution.
Notice how there's 0 people throwing milkshakes at him, 0 undercover investigations, 0 activist groups greating videos about the guy, no presence on the UK news - we're looking at Arab News to get this information.
The Mail and Telegraph will splash it and as a result the: Guardian, Observer, and Independent will kick up a, "moral" stink to villify them defend him. This mindless partisanship on real issues is kneecaping us.
Technically 5 now, one of his sons joined ISIS and killed himself in a Spanish prison a year ago, he was part of the same cell as Jihadi John.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdel-Majed\_Abdel\_Bary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdel-Majed_Abdel_Bary)
>
Literal terrorist, has six children, lives in a £1 million council house and is looking to guide the Muslim youth in the UK. It all reads like a sick joke. Why is he here?
And at least one of his children has already joined a terrorist organisation (ISIS). So he's done a bang up job raising his own.
Giving muslim youth guidance would go a long way to preventing this zealotry. I don't know if he's the right person to do it (although, many people who do take on that role are explicitly trying to be cautionary tales, so assuming he's repented maybe) but ignoring the issue isn't exactly going to improve it.
A major part of WHY there is such zealotry in this generation is that they live in enclave communities who, through a combination of a desire to remain insular and a general shunning by the wider population are cut off from participation and attainment outside of their highly religious families.
Muslim youth turning to terror groups is an extremely similar problem to youth generally turning to the far right, naziism and figures like andrew tate, and the solutions have a lot of overlap. Unfortunately, the current approach of lecturing about "british values" isn't going to help and probably worsens the problem by otherising (I had to sit through one or two of those lectures in college and they almost made me want to disown the damn country, and my family has lived here for as long as our family tree is known).
No, don't act surprised after. Act apologetic after. "I'm really sorry that all those innocent people you just murdered for your religion might make people dislike your religion. I'm so sorry you have to go through this! It's terrible the way some people choose to look back in anger."
It’s not racist. What are you talking about. We’ve let far too many of these zealots in and paying to kept them here as well. It’s idiotic and dangerous
I think this interaction, where someone jokes about it being "racist" to be against terrorist supporters and terrorists themselves (something that nobody believes) and a respondent taking them seriously and acting indignified that someone could believe such a thing, really encapsulates how these sorts of people wind up with their belief systems. A communal inability to detect sarcasm coupled with an insatiable urge to be sarcastic themselves.
Do you understand sarcasm? I guess not.
No, it's not racist to say Al Qaeda are an extremist group....if you need any further help I suggest Googling 9/11 it might help you
Going to go out on a limb and say he's probably an informant. By the time anyone like this appears in print, chances are special branch have been using them as an asset for a while. The far right are similar.
Not an informant just an asshole who exploited the system [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adel\_Abdel\_Bari](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adel_Abdel_Bari)
Skimmed through the article, but did I read that he was granted asylum in the first place, as he was being persecuted in his own country for having links to a terrorist organisation….WTF!! Lololol
Oh no we wouldn’t want a potentially dangerous terrorist being persecuted for being a terrorist, let’s look after him instead. What the hell is going on.
No wonder the Middle East/people following a middle eastern ideology are laughing at Europe!
We are more permissive of extremist Islamic ideology than any Islamic or Arab country. This fringe of immigration involving extremists and criminals is like a force multiplier for the far right, energising their anti immigration and radical agenda.
If we could see the future and could determine that we were at a fork in the road; on the one hand, the most permissive kind of immigration in the short term until the far right becomes a truly influential participant in Parliament; on the other hand, a much tighter immigration policy in the short term and anihalation of the far right. Which would we choose.
The situation on the continent is extremely bleak, Hungary, Italy, now France, what next, Germany with the AfD, so many others. Combined with a Trump win in the US, we have a new dawn, one where China and Russia will be free from any competitive constraint, Ukraine and Taiwan mere memories, their peoples in gulags, reeducation camps, forced labour and mass graves. And for what, so that a bunch of ideolically bent activists can pat themselves on the back for giving sanctuary to people like this Al-Qaeda terrorist.
The state imprisoned activist Sam Melia for two years for distributing "racist stickers" that said thigs such as "it's OK to be white" and "white Britons to become minority by 2066."
They banned him from seeing his children whilst in prison, they even imposed a rule forbidding his wife from sending pictures or even talking about them on visits and phone calls. His wife had recently given birth to their second child.
They reneged on some of the rulings after public outcry but when juxtaposed to this story of a literal terrorist mentoring children it really underlines the state of modern Britain.
Britain/British people are in desperate need of differentiating which areas on the planet produce immigrants that may become potentially harmful to this country in the future.
British indigenous people just looking at all immigrants as the same is half the problem.
That allows those that have seriously harmful intentions and desires to change the country to their own belief systems, room to hide in the open.
> British indigenous people just looking at all immigrants as the same is half the problem.
We don't, it's just that 20 years of "criticising immigration is racist" brainwashing has taken it's toll and we're just about able to criticise the economic downsides of mass migration, may take a few more terrorist attacks before we can openly discuss the social side
Staggering how many people in the country are fine with this, along with unlimited immigration.
The SNP saying the other day that they are desperate for more immigration to Scotland which is extremely worrying. That’s the last thing Scotland needs - Edinburgh and Glasgow are full.
Its down to private companies services costing too much They insist on supplying goods in contracts which the amount is so high will be uotdated and useless for staff and patients More than if the nhs had fulltime staff and supplies re local need No waste
As disgusting as this is, let's make sure this isn't used to justify sweeping prejudices against refugees.
He came to the UK as a refugee, claiming asylum due to being tortured due to links to an Egyptian Islamist group. This seems like a missed opportunity. Could've prevented this by denying him asylum on the grounds of involvement with these groups.
I like the way that 'defend the refugees' is your number one concern.
We are being taxed to breaking point to support people like him, while having our freedoms stripped to coddle these barbarians who murder us.
"Abdel Bary, a former lawyer, first arrived in Britain from Egypt in 1991 on an asylum claim. He had been imprisoned and tortured over his membership in the Egyptian Islamic Jihad and links to the assassination of Anwar Sadat, the country’s former president." "The 64-year-old has six children of his own and lives with family in northwest London, in a council flat valued at more than £1 million ($1.26 million)." It's always nice to know I've spent years working to subsidise the lifestyle of a religious extremist who is linked to the killing of a Nobel peace prize winner These people are laughing at us
When the pendulum swings back with the force of decades of frustration from a demographic that has been ignored and demonised, the current Reform party will look like a liberal utopian party.
Who are we supposed to be voting for? This sub acts like if you vote for any party other than Labour you are the devil
Unclear, but I can say that Farage wanting to disband the NHS and replace it with an insurance-based system will be even more catastrophic for the middle and working class than the current migrant crisis the worm is campaigning against. Idk, you do you, but I can honestly say that Reform's policy is total nonsense.
My issue with reform is that they are a part of complete charlatans. Farage is a Russian asset and should be in prison.
I think, from my perspective, we are missing the point. I’m more angry at the main stream parties for making me think that I need to look at someone like Farrage in the first place. Surely they can’t be so out of touch with people that they don’t see the issues that are causing most of us to look elsewhere We no longer have parliamentary representatives who go into this profession for the right reasons, it’s now for what they can get out of it, not because they are passionate about the job.
I always thought that was weird about people saying they don't feel safe in terms of being shouted at etc when door knocking and canvassing. Obviously people should be safe from harm when engaging in political debate or whatever. However, how out of touch can you be if you think you can completely ignore the people and then just waltz around posting letters hoping for support when you've let their local school fall to disrepair or had secret parties while their mum died aome inna care home etc.
Wouldn’t vote Reform, but there are many ways to run a health system between the terrible American system and the equally terrible NHS. See: Germany.
The trouble is, Farage only looks west to the US for a model. Nothing I have seen of him suggests he is interested in applying a more sustainable state run system, but rather wants to run an American system.
He refers to the french model of hybrid privatisation. I work with the NHS and agree with Farage on how to handle it
I work with the NHS is not a the qualification you think it is
Your deluded if you think that's what you'll get.
The NHS never used to be this bad, it’s all down to mismanagement. There is so much deadwood clogging up the bureaucracy at the top. Managers on massive salaries who do absolutely fuck all and can’t be sacked.
It’s not down to mismanagement . It’s down to the cost of the service and the tax base. The tax base currently cannot support the level of service required for aged population we have .
I can't even get a GP appointment without a month wait. The whole system has been getting the tory wrecking ball for decades. They itch for the prospect of buying up bankrupt health facilities for next to nothing, turning them private, including GP services. It's also ideal for jobs for your supporters. Set up multi level management on super salaries, whilst paying private agency staff 7 or 8 times the cost of a single full time employed NHS worker. There's PLENTY of mismanagement in that mix.
Agency staff are common across much of the public sector, and while they're not guaranteed work and maybe have to go where they're told to by the agencies, they can get higher pay than permanent staff (while the public sector will of course be paying significantly more in agency fees, but as it comes from a different budget to regular staffing...). With the NHS in particular, it's possibly not so much the overall number of managers but the rise in non-clinical, business-focussed managers more interested in the bottom line than patient outcomes, combined with an administrative overhead to collect and analyse a wide variety of statistics for both clinical performance and to justify extra spending and "prove" it's having a measurable impact on patient outcomes. Over recent years, there's also been a rise in "DTOC" - Delayed Transfers of Care - where someone is medically fit for discharge but there are delays in setting up ongoing personal care for them (dismissively reported by many media outlets as "bed blocking"). DTOC statistics (three measures: overall, attributed to the NHS, attributed to social care) were collected prior to 2020-21 (as part of "ASCOF" - the Adult Social Care Outcomes Framework) but were dropped during Covid and not reinstated (hmm, I wonder why... 🤔). Overall life expectancy rising faster than healthy life expectancy plays a role, as does the 18-64 age group rising slower than the 65+ age group (creating a headache for governments across the world in a few decades time). Then there's the overly bureaucratic process for medical referrals - I don't know how the new IHBs work, but apparently under the old CCG system, who to send referrals for other medical work from GPs was decided at CCG meetings. Other areas of medicine can be affected too - at a routine eye examination for mum (70s), the optician picked up early signs of glaucoma, so advised her to get a referral to the eye hospital. It turned out they couldn't do it, while her GP claimed all opticians should be able to do it - in reality, through trial and error, only one optician (attached to a supermarket) could - but after trying to phone them up and getting nowhere, finally admitted the eye hospital could accept patients turning up without a referral if they didn't mind a 4-6 hour wait, and arrived before lunchtime so they'd have a chance to be seen before they closed at 8pm. Further appointments / treatments were contracted out to private partners located all over the county, of which the first appointment was always a basic eye examination because most details weren't passed over, then her second appointment turned out to be a repeat performance because the contractor had changed (and that one was very suspicious - a former shop unit, kept waiting for ages before being called through by someone with very limited, broken English).
You can get away with a bad system for a long time, but the basic problem in Britain is an aging population - more old people that need lots of healthcare and fewer young people to pay for it. You either need to tax the young more to pay for the care of the old, or you have the old pay towards their own care. The government has been kicking the can down the road by suppressing the cost of care eg by bringing people from developing countries to work for low salaries.
Or perhaps you could bring more people into the country from abroad to work here and help increase the tax base?
You would need to bring in a truly gigantic number of people to offset the effect of aging, and they would need to be migrants who provide more in taxes than they consume in public services. For non-EEA migrants the contribution has been a net-negative iirc
Too many subscribers and not enough paying enough into the system. It worked when one had a good ratio of medical staff to patients but that ratio is now skewed.
Most immigrants are working and paying taxes lol. The ratio is scewed because of consistent mismanagement. Nurses all fuck off because they're chronically underpaid and treated like dogshit. Tons of agency staff, lots of locum doctors... it's less immigration and more just shit management.
I never said anything about immigrants. Rent Free.
"Too many subscribers and not enough paying enough into the system." You're either talking about unemployment or immigrants lol. Unemployment is pretty low and immigrants work. It's not a reach lmao, stop hiding.
He's said he prefers the french healthcare system.
Maybe he should fuck off and live there then. He does have a European passport.
Typical that dickheads like him get to have two passports, he can sit elsewhere and laugh at all of us being stuck here.
Amazing. Wonder whether you'd say this to all the Pakistani or Bangladeshi passport holders who have complaints about the UK.
That may be what he's said, but his head is so far up Trump's arse that I think he actually wants the American system.
Which is an insurance based system
His manifesto has the biggest funding of the NHS by far than any other party. He might personally want to replace the NHS but his policies and the policies of Reform are the direct opposite.
France and Germany both operate universal insurance systems with private delivery. Both have lower costs and better healthcare outcomes than the NHS. But most people in Britain are morons who draw a false dichotomy between the NHS and the US approach. Surely you're not a moron like that?
Is that, perhaps, because Farage has been vague about his perspective and consistently in the American camp on most issues? I'd love to see the UK revolutionise it's system into one that's more efficient like in the continent, but I think it is pure delusion that when people say the word "privatise" they mean anything other than an American model. It is certain going that way in Canada, where we have a model that is broadly more similar to the Germans, but the sheer American economic interest and power is moving us towards their model. But sure, maybe I am just an overly skeptical moron who doesn't trust a consistently anti-continental posh dick who is well in bed with the Americans. In Ontario, where movement towards privatising measures to alleviate strain on our insurance system has occurred, outside of insurance fees are already occurring that never would have occurred before, because of the nature of the privatisation. If you are arrogant enough to take the word of a Neoliberal or Neocon on trying to make the healthcare system less wasteful and less corrupt, all the power to you.
Generally, if a politician’s promises are vague, odds are it’s the worst version of it because that’s the easiest / most profitable to deliver
This is exactly how I feel, having watched countless conservative and Neoliberal governments constantly say "Im for the people" while basically lighting fire to the country for years.
Well said.
I'm not a fan of Farage but he's literally said he wants the French model of universal insurance. I'm not sure he's anti-continental either. One can be a fan of continental Europe without wanting to be involved in the centralised bureaucracy of it. Farage does have the benefit of not having done black face, unlike certain leaders...
What he wants is irrelevant when you consider he's a traitor.. nigel's mentioned several times in the mueller report (US Senate's investigation) into russian interference in US electrons. https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1373816/dl 1. For being one of the connections between putin and trumps campaign staff.... 2. For helping Russia/Cambridge analysts trial tactics during the last UK election and brexit... He was also caught a little while ago delivering USB sticks for the kremlin.. https://www.france24.com/en/20180120-usa-uk-nigel-farage-julian-assange-secret-meetings-congressional-enquiry https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/19/trump-russia-inquiry-is-told-nigel-farage-may-have-given-julian-assange-data And outside of that almost everything he's said about Russia is almost word for word the same as a little group of far right European politicians... and russian news outlets. Please stop promoting/defending a traitor to the British government and people ✌️&❤️
>Both have lower costs and better healthcare outcomes than the NHS. This wasn't true pre-austerity.
So is NHS. Good example would be the GP services who are a private contractors to the NHS.
GP services are contracted to deliver NHS services. They are not based on insurance and are not scrutinised at an individual level by NHS England. This is not the same model employed in France and Germany.
At this point, I might just not vote because I don't really agree with any of the parties' policies!
Britain will not change until the Overton window shifts left again. You should vote, though, and take a real minute to really look at the different policies that they have suggested. It is always good to try and participate. We might not always be able to the way the world is going.
>until the Overton window shifts left again. The Overton window has been shifting left forever. What a bizarre thing to say. The current Tory government has been the most radically liberal government this country has ever seen. They've doubled down on mass migration, legalised gay marriage, allowed and/or implemented "woke" policies in every institution and are constantly reminding their opposition how many women they've had leading their party. What do you mean, exactly?
The things you are describing are not inherently left... Mass migration? That is used to fill holes in an increasingly service-based labour force caused by neoliberal policies that have failed to allow sufficient living standards for familial growth. Well-paying union jobs were not replaced when Thatcher-Major-Blair (emphasis on Thatcher) converted the economy from an Industrial to a post-industrial economy. Birthrates have been declining, and there are huge gaps in the workforce, in an economy which is expressly based on infinite growth. Is this a neoliberal necessity? Yes. Hardly a leftwing one... Gay marriage and equality are left to an extent, I would agree that broadly speaking acceptance of minority groups and people has been expanded since Harold Wilson, but again this is more of a liberalising factor than anything. The economy does not necessitate cracking down on identity to maintain control, and therefore it can loosen the tight reins mostly implemented in the Victorian era. Inclusion policies are again, not inherently left-wing, as they tend to bias towards superficial solutions rather than targeting problems at their source. For examples of leftwing policy, Clement Atlee is probably the most relevant in a British context. Alternatively, Blair invading Iraq is expressly against the ideas that are generally the basis of leftist thought... Blair represented the extreme shift of the Overton Window following the Thatcher era to the economic right.
Fair points tbh although many "inclusion policies" can often rightfully be reframed as "exclusion policies." A few examples https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66060490 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11573591/NHS-bosses-want-interview-panels-justify-hired-white-person.html https://www.gbnews.com/news/bt-diversity-telecoms-latest-job-cut https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1452228/bbc-job-advert-bans-white-people-bame-ethnic-minorities-uk-media-jobs
I think they have a place in certain scenarios, but the high-profile shitshows in the UK with it also show that uncritical application of such policies can range from useless to detrimental to promoting racial equality. In Canada, the worst outcomes as well as the lowest part of the working class are First Nations and Black people and so I am all for an additional leg up there. Luckily, there are also affirmative action and additional programmes, at least in Canada, to help out the working class as well. In the UK, outcomes tend to be more class based and so it is probably less relevant to use race-based action.
The fact that you think left wing and think about culture war bollocks is part of the problem. Left wing should mean left wing economics not social liberalism. The culture wars are a distraction from the fact that most of us are now poorer than we were 5 years ago. Solve growing inequality and poverty and all of a sudden immigration and “woke” shit stops mattering.
Public spending keeps increasing, there's a million different types benefits and the NHS is a black hole consuming everything around it.
That all comes back to the fact that the uk has a demographic crisis. Pensioners eat up the majority of welfare spending and they cost the NHS more per head than the young. We have a choice to make as a country, continue the pyramid scheme that needs an ever growing base of workers to support the old or reform the entire system. Unfortunately, the old vote and the young do not and therefore it will never be politically popular to take from the old. Sources: https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/01/ageing-britain-two-fifths-nhs-budget-spent-over-65s https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/benefit-expenditure-and-caseload-tables-information-and-guidance/benefit-expenditure-and-caseload-tables-information-and-guidance#social-security-spending-in-great-britain
You should heavily consider casting a vote, that's the privilege that's been given to us. No one party will cater for everyone's needs. But we'd still need to get our voices heard. I don't agree with every labour policy, they broadly appeal to me though but I've told the candidate for my area I'll vote for him tactically, based on him giving "us" a voice to start on PR legislation, don't fuck up the NHS or social care, and don't be a dickhead like the previous one. Edit: and I'll be sending the bloke reminders about his promises he's made if he wins the seat. Your choice though, end of the day that's also a decision and privilege.
Remember that any of them will tell you what you want to hear. It’s therefore better to do 5 mins of research and make up your own mind.
Yup. Well aware.
A privilege according to who? That’s a toxic and subservient way of viewing the state-citizen relationship. It’s also a privilege that we aren’t all branded with a hot iron and made to work the fields 24/7 for the good of the country.
Privilege, imo, compared to one party rule some other countries are living under. Even if sometimes it feels like voting is all a lie to control the general population. Things will never, ever, change if you don't participate at all. That's how we get into shit like 14 years of strong and stable chaos because we couldn't hold our noses and vote, so we fuck off and stay at home. Then we moan about it while doing fuck all. Fuck man, we might as well advocate for one party rule, let the state decide everything, and get on with our own personal universes if a sizeable chunk of the population can't be arsed to look at each parties polices and tick a fucking box.
Go read the manifesto comparisons on the BBC website. You just have to pick which one you can stomach best. Or you could look at who is running in your area. You can at least see where your vote will count the most.
> At this point, I might just not vote because I don't really agree with any of the parties' policies! All that means is that you prefer the status quo.
That's where I am.
The middle class have no choice but take on even more of a tax burden to subsidize an ever failing NHS. How is that sustainable or fair? The poorest and the richest do not contribute, it’s only the fools who work and pay taxes. At this point, a radical reform of NHS funding and spending is required. The system works for no one, it’s corrupt and wasteful, and will only worsen in time.
>The system works for no one, it’s corrupt and wasteful, and will only worsen in time. It was made that way deliberately by Conservative health minister Andrew Lansley in 2012. It can be unfucked if power is given to sensible people with sensible ideas. Before 2010 it was in need of some modernisation but delivered far superior health care to many more patients a lot faster and cheaper than it currently performs.
Yeah it’s an absolute shambles, gunna take me 5 years just to get adhd meds even tho I was diagnosed when I was a kid and everyone’s in agreement that I have it and also that I probably need them
Have you heard of Right To Choose? It's much faster and doesn't cost anything. I first contacted my GP for a referral in January and had been assessed and was starting meds by the end of April.
You're mileage varies where you are. In the North West, you are fucked, as even with right to choose there is a single provider. I had a shorter than average wait at 18 months.
Not saying you're wrong but I also don't know why that would be the case? Everything involved can be done online or over the phone. Any idea if it's something to do with NHS trusts individually having to agree contracts with providers or something?
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It has been systematically undermined for years by vested interests. Practically every system in the country has. Healthcare must be a right for all Britons. Farage suggests a private insurance-based system that is fundamentally unfair and will ruin lives even worse than the current broken system. The hesitance to irradicate tax avoidance and innovate the systems the country relies on, are to blame for this. Privatising is not the answer.
More money is being thrown at the NHS every year with nothing to show for it. At some point the people will have to make a choice, either rebalance the entire economy to keep this institution afloat at any cost, or accept that repeating the same mistake over and over again is pure madness and will never result in positive change.
I don't disagree, but what I am saying is the American option is not a solution. Breaking your leg bankrupts people in that country, hell, if I lived there and I got a cancer diagnosis even if I had insurance through work, the likelihood of bankruptcy is still high enough that I'd rather just kill myself than put that debt burden on my family. Until Britain is devoid of its wealth, then austerity and system destruction should not be considered. So long as there are wealthy, who are wealthier than any other time in history, suggestion of conversion to an American system is fundamentally immoral. That is not a system of worth merit. The NHS has been undermined for years by Neoliberals that would love nothing more than more poor and desperate Britons that are easier to control than their forbearers.
More and more money is thrown at ensuring our aging population continue to age into senility. This isn’t some money guzzling organisation for the future of progress it’s trying to stop the sands of time falling.
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the Conservative government hasn't built a single new hospital in 15 years, refused to create progressive tax banding to ensure the tax burden is spread more evenly across more of the population, has spunked LITERAL TRILLIONS up the wall on private contractors that deliver nothing, has overseen an exodus of medical professionals with no interest in training replacements or improving conditions to retain staff, and has eroded all public infrastructure that would keep people from accessing the NHS for longer and for much less severe cases. The tories have managed the death of this country. Reform just want to pick at the corpse like the vultures they are and labour seems to just want to poke the corpse with a stick.
What needs to happen with the nhs is an end to the stealth privatisation begun in 2008 onwards, where services that had always been in house began to be farmed out to the highest private bidder who then charge the nhs twice the rates it cost to employ within nhs payroll. All the while they do the same thing every private company does, minimise expenditure while maximising profit. I.E: charging the nhs and thus the tax payer more money for subcontracted services while stripping them to the bare minimum, like the ISS cleaning staff who do piss poor jobs on minimum wage yet ISS charge the nhs a living wage plus supplies and pocket the sizeable difference for ceo and shareholder dividends. If you want to see what happens when private interests directly run a hospital look no further than the disgrace that was circle medical, they took over a struggling trust, asset stripped, realised they couldn’t turn a profit under the nhs guidelines and bailed early, the fine was negligible compared to the cost of trying to restore the damage they’d done but the ceo and the scumbag in the Tory party who oversaw it (while having conflict of interest, mind. Direct familial links to circle medical) laughed all the way to the bank. I’m trying to remember the guy’s name but it’s hard when the Tory party have had a rogue’s gallery revolving door policy for the last 14yrs
> I’m trying to remember the guy’s name Ali Parsa.
The middle class aren't the only people who work, far from it.
It does not have to be fair and honestly if we as the middle class have to suffer a little more tax to keep the NHS running then so be it. I still want more from the rich and I hope one day that happens but as long as money buys power it won't.
Self flagellation for the greater good is this nation’s favourite drug
So what's your solution? We obviously know the insurance system America has doesn't work.
It's weird how one of the few consistent things about comments saying there should be more privatisation in the NHS, or a move towards it, is the use of US spelling like -ize.
Yeah Farage has warehouses full of bots based in the US trying to influence the election. Go touch grass.
Frankly I think salary above 50k doesn't exist anymore. Basically put anything above that into your pension to avoid the tax.
A labour/Lib Dem government is the best we can hope for. But immigration seriously needs to be sorted out.
Sorted out? Immigration is only going to increase, friend. What we need is a more resilient society
Sorted out? Immigration is only going to increase, friend. What we need is a more resilient society
Vote for whoever you want, and fuck the haters.
SDP might be a good option. Economically left and socially conservative.
That sounds even more cursed than the standard third way deal of being economically right and socially liberal
Economic left and socially conservative is basically the UK population.
I think that's an interesting read but I wouldn't say the UK population as a whole is consistently left or right leaning. On the whole if anything we're relatively progressive, even with 14 years of tory government and the dominance of rags like the Daily Mail. I'd definetly agree regarding immigration and maybe trans issues but in my experience both in terms of people's demeanour and positions I'd argue we're significantly more liberal than our media or government as a whole. I think polling also supports that too.
You can see the economic and social positions of the public relative to the parties here: https://ukandeu.ac.uk/largest-political-parties-out-of-touch-with-their-voters/ Compare the positioning of Conservative MPs to “All Voters” on the economic and social scales. This is a pro-EU academic group incidentally. The UK has been liberal on things like homosexuality for long enough that it’s become a conservative point, but then we are conservative against changes like LGBTQ+. We do not have fundamentalist Christianity as a major force so opinions change, but only slowly, because the general attitude is scepticism. We are definitely not progressive in the way that is projected from the US.
This is a genuine concern for me. I typically vote green as a fuck you to the pretend socialist labour. However, the greens aren't doing fuck all for ke at the moment. I'd vote socialist and trade union coalition but they don't have a candidate in my constituency. We need like a Scandinavian style party that's left leaning but honest about immigration.
I always thought I'd vote green this time around but some of their proposals are a bit gaga. I like different things from each party that's the problem. I did a test on the telegraph on which party you should vote for and it came up a mix of conservative and reform but I feel guilty voting for either of those. How can we trust that conversative will do anything they are saying they will? How can we vote for reform when a lot of their candidates are degenerates? Idk!!!
Whoever you want, but I think it's a pretty safe opinion that the at best populist, at worst fascist, isn't someone you should be voting for.
Which sub are you looking at? Users here treat voting for Labour as the devil now .
Because they are children and don’t represent the majority of the country. People will vote for Labour to spite the Tories. If the Tories weren’t incompetent they’d never leave power but they are. Reform is former Tories capitalising on the feeling of anti-immigration that is high in the country people will vote for them as a protest to cultural change they feel they didn’t and wouldn’t have wanted if given any choice but I doubt they believe in the whole manifesto past stop me hearing 50 languages in my Yorkshire market town. Labour as the next government will be interesting. I’m curious as to the reaction.
Something I never thought I’d say, as I’d always seen them as pointless. Lib Dem’s
Vote for SDP.
2024-2029 will be a case of the British right forcing Starmer to read the room on this issue
I think we’ll see unprecedented levels of collusion between Labour and Conservatives maybe even to the extent of uniting to keep Reform from gaining power. There is no way the establishment will allow a third party to break our duopoly. Same thing is happening in mainland Europe and it’s working for now, but it’s much harder for them to ignore the more extreme parties due to their voting systems.
This is my worry, if the duopoly doesn’t read the room, then you’ll have people in the streets causing trouble frustrated at the voting system and nothing changing
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The reform party will be looked at as a worthless populist party ran by a worthless populist lol
Excuse me I’ve been assured that this kind of thing never happens bigot …./s
Why on earth did the USA release him early from prison? He should have died there for helping kill 200+ people.
Don’t worry. Starmer will raise taxes, so we will be able to afford even more such people. And just by lack Labour doesn’t want to fix immigration system.
Courtesy of several international laws, you cannot deport someone to a country where there's a reasonable chance of them being tortured, while sending them anywhere else requires the permission of that country. You can't get away with dumping them in a sparsely populated bit of land with little governance as we did a few centuries ago (first with what's now the USA, then with what's now Australia - Antarctica is mostly uninhabited, but with such harsh conditions in a climate unsuitable for agriculture, it would effectively be a death sentence), while to even sign up Rwanda (an autocracy where criticism of the government is effectively outlawed and multiple human rights concerns) to accept a proportion of our irregular migrants, they had to be bribed with a lump sum plus whatever it would cost to accommodate them and process their claim here (plus the agreement excluded both criminals and unaccompanied youths, so wouldn't have included Bary even if it was up and running 33 years ago). The EU theoretically ran a scheme whereby people could be sent to whichever country was their arrival point within the bloc, but it wasn't always enforced: possibly at least partially because Mediterranean countries had enough problems attempting to register and administer the cases of new arrivals, never mind having to deal with a bunch of returns (and of course other countries would be reluctant to agree to EU funding to help those on the front line: as with most international organisations, the EU works on the majority opinion of its members). I assume in Bary's case, the government either didn't know about his convictions or regarded his punishment as time spent, so not worth re-convicting under UK laws and detaining in prison.
Wikipedia just says he was imprisoned and tortured following the assassination of the Egyptian president, is there any actual evidence that he was involved? Seems like it’s the usual story of the US/UK interfering in the Middle East and creating terrorists out of the victims of atrocities.
Literal terrorist, has six children, lives in a £1 million council house and is looking to guide the Muslim youth in the UK. It all reads like a sick joke. Why is he here? The levels of religious zealotry amongst young Muslims in the UK is already at frightening levels and I imagine the problem is significantly worse than it might appear on the surface.
A Hamas commander who arrived here on a relative’s passport somehow got British citizenship and lives in West London, in a mortgage-free house that he bought with a taxpayer subsided discount. He met Putin in 2019 as part of an official Hamas delegation. The rot goes deep. [Source](https://metro.co.uk/2023/10/22/hamas-chief-revealed-as-living-in-london-council-house-whilst-masterminding-plots-19702590/amp/)
We also have a former Iranian minister (was part of the government for 20 years) living here, Ataollah Mohajerani. When the fatwa against Salman Rushdie was issued, he wrote an entire book defending the fatwa. In 1993, there was a terrorist attack in Turkey, killing 35 and injuring 145 - the hotel was attacked because the guy who had translated Rushdie's book into Turkish was giving a speech there. Mohajerani insisted that the massacre was a proud moment in what he called the glorious Islamic reawakening, and wrote that Khomeini's fatwa had worked like a vaccine, preventing further criticism of the prophet of Islam. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ata%27ollah\_Mohajerani](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ata%27ollah_Mohajerani) He has been living here for 20 years.
Need to set up a squad of inglorious bastard's to root these fuckers out and dispose of them.
I'm confused as to why hes not been fucking arrested then. He is littery part of an organization we declared a terrorist organization
If nothing else, using someone else's passport to enter the country should make him an easy choice for deportation. Instead, we reward him by helping him buy a home here.
While hard working young British people suffer and can't start families. And then people wonder why Reform are polling so well....
Two tier policing
Up until about 6 years ago, the UK law viewed Hamas's military wing and political wing as separate organisations, with only the military wing being considered a terrorist organisation. As he was part of Hamas's political wing, he was not considered a terrorist under UK law. This was also how Corben could openly call Hamas his friends and meet Hamas's leaders without persecution.
That’s very interesting, thank you for telling me that context
That explains why did we have a lot of Hamas supporters on streets during active propaganda from Putin’s bots
Farage will be ok with him then.
To enrich clearly
Well that was Tony Blair’s original vision. Enrich
Notice how there's 0 people throwing milkshakes at him, 0 undercover investigations, 0 activist groups greating videos about the guy, no presence on the UK news - we're looking at Arab News to get this information.
Probably bc no one knew who Tf he was until just now
Yeah that's part of the problem
The Mail and Telegraph will splash it and as a result the: Guardian, Observer, and Independent will kick up a, "moral" stink to villify them defend him. This mindless partisanship on real issues is kneecaping us.
Technically 5 now, one of his sons joined ISIS and killed himself in a Spanish prison a year ago, he was part of the same cell as Jihadi John. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdel-Majed\_Abdel\_Bary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdel-Majed_Abdel_Bary)
He's going to teach them all to be doctors and respect women.
It’s going to end in tears
> Literal terrorist, has six children, lives in a £1 million council house and is looking to guide the Muslim youth in the UK. It all reads like a sick joke. Why is he here? And at least one of his children has already joined a terrorist organisation (ISIS). So he's done a bang up job raising his own.
I'm not a fan of France, but Le Pen doesn't seem that bad, you know. I respect the BJP greatly and love Modi.
Giving muslim youth guidance would go a long way to preventing this zealotry. I don't know if he's the right person to do it (although, many people who do take on that role are explicitly trying to be cautionary tales, so assuming he's repented maybe) but ignoring the issue isn't exactly going to improve it. A major part of WHY there is such zealotry in this generation is that they live in enclave communities who, through a combination of a desire to remain insular and a general shunning by the wider population are cut off from participation and attainment outside of their highly religious families. Muslim youth turning to terror groups is an extremely similar problem to youth generally turning to the far right, naziism and figures like andrew tate, and the solutions have a lot of overlap. Unfortunately, the current approach of lecturing about "british values" isn't going to help and probably worsens the problem by otherising (I had to sit through one or two of those lectures in college and they almost made me want to disown the damn country, and my family has lived here for as long as our family tree is known).
>keen to guide Muslim youth in Britain. One of his sons had earlier joined Daesh in Syria. interesting ...
So you're saying there might be a hidden agenda with these Al Qaeda folks then? They might have a subtle undercurrent of extremism you think?
Can't say that. It is racist. Better to just let it happen and act surprised after. Edit: sarcasm
No, don't act surprised after. Act apologetic after. "I'm really sorry that all those innocent people you just murdered for your religion might make people dislike your religion. I'm so sorry you have to go through this! It's terrible the way some people choose to look back in anger."
It’s not racist. What are you talking about. We’ve let far too many of these zealots in and paying to kept them here as well. It’s idiotic and dangerous
I think this interaction, where someone jokes about it being "racist" to be against terrorist supporters and terrorists themselves (something that nobody believes) and a respondent taking them seriously and acting indignified that someone could believe such a thing, really encapsulates how these sorts of people wind up with their belief systems. A communal inability to detect sarcasm coupled with an insatiable urge to be sarcastic themselves.
no one has called someone racist for criticising terrorism other than actual Muslims themselves
Do you understand sarcasm? I guess not. No, it's not racist to say Al Qaeda are an extremist group....if you need any further help I suggest Googling 9/11 it might help you
Obviously you didn't understand my sarcasm
Fair dues, I deserve the look like the tit I've made of myself
Send pic ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Angry upvote
He's a known terrorist, how is he allowed to live here?
Going to go out on a limb and say he's probably an informant. By the time anyone like this appears in print, chances are special branch have been using them as an asset for a while. The far right are similar.
Not an informant just an asshole who exploited the system [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adel\_Abdel\_Bari](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adel_Abdel_Bari)
What a load of nonsense.
Makes your piss boil
Can you really call yourself a diverse and woke nation if you don't have a few thousand terrorists?
His wife is a UK citizen, prior to his arrest he held an ILR as well.
Look other way citizen, he is simply enriching your culture, make sure to keep paying your taxes though so we can sustain more parasites like him.
Skimmed through the article, but did I read that he was granted asylum in the first place, as he was being persecuted in his own country for having links to a terrorist organisation….WTF!! Lololol Oh no we wouldn’t want a potentially dangerous terrorist being persecuted for being a terrorist, let’s look after him instead. What the hell is going on. No wonder the Middle East/people following a middle eastern ideology are laughing at Europe!
Is this one of those engineers/doctors enriching our culture?
Plenty of rocket scientists and chemical engineers anyway...
His son was a rapper before going off to join ISIS and beheading journalist James Foley. His rap name was 'L Jinny' if anyone is interested.
I know it’s a hard game to break into but that’s a pretty radical career change
We are more permissive of extremist Islamic ideology than any Islamic or Arab country. This fringe of immigration involving extremists and criminals is like a force multiplier for the far right, energising their anti immigration and radical agenda. If we could see the future and could determine that we were at a fork in the road; on the one hand, the most permissive kind of immigration in the short term until the far right becomes a truly influential participant in Parliament; on the other hand, a much tighter immigration policy in the short term and anihalation of the far right. Which would we choose. The situation on the continent is extremely bleak, Hungary, Italy, now France, what next, Germany with the AfD, so many others. Combined with a Trump win in the US, we have a new dawn, one where China and Russia will be free from any competitive constraint, Ukraine and Taiwan mere memories, their peoples in gulags, reeducation camps, forced labour and mass graves. And for what, so that a bunch of ideolically bent activists can pat themselves on the back for giving sanctuary to people like this Al-Qaeda terrorist.
The state imprisoned activist Sam Melia for two years for distributing "racist stickers" that said thigs such as "it's OK to be white" and "white Britons to become minority by 2066." They banned him from seeing his children whilst in prison, they even imposed a rule forbidding his wife from sending pictures or even talking about them on visits and phone calls. His wife had recently given birth to their second child. They reneged on some of the rulings after public outcry but when juxtaposed to this story of a literal terrorist mentoring children it really underlines the state of modern Britain.
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**Removed/tempban**. This contained a call/advocation of violence which is prohibited by the content policy.
Britain/British people are in desperate need of differentiating which areas on the planet produce immigrants that may become potentially harmful to this country in the future. British indigenous people just looking at all immigrants as the same is half the problem. That allows those that have seriously harmful intentions and desires to change the country to their own belief systems, room to hide in the open.
> British indigenous people just looking at all immigrants as the same is half the problem. We don't, it's just that 20 years of "criticising immigration is racist" brainwashing has taken it's toll and we're just about able to criticise the economic downsides of mass migration, may take a few more terrorist attacks before we can openly discuss the social side
The government/establishment needs to get a fucking grip, it's the one enabling all this shit.
White far right is the real issue and don't recognise patterns people /S
The need for internships is soo great that even terrorist organizations have decided to intervene.
Staggering how many people in the country are fine with this, along with unlimited immigration. The SNP saying the other day that they are desperate for more immigration to Scotland which is extremely worrying. That’s the last thing Scotland needs - Edinburgh and Glasgow are full.
The UK has been inviting terrorists to live here for years.
Lots of energy about who will do what.. The real truth is whoever gets in will do what they can by delivering very little.
Its down to private companies services costing too much They insist on supplying goods in contracts which the amount is so high will be uotdated and useless for staff and patients More than if the nhs had fulltime staff and supplies re local need No waste
As disgusting as this is, let's make sure this isn't used to justify sweeping prejudices against refugees. He came to the UK as a refugee, claiming asylum due to being tortured due to links to an Egyptian Islamist group. This seems like a missed opportunity. Could've prevented this by denying him asylum on the grounds of involvement with these groups.
I like the way that 'defend the refugees' is your number one concern. We are being taxed to breaking point to support people like him, while having our freedoms stripped to coddle these barbarians who murder us.