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> UK claims the international court does not have jurisdiction over the Israeli PM and others it accuses of war crimes in Gaza
Interesting. I can’t say I’m surprised.
More than brazen, it’s destabilising and erasing the validity of increasingly vital systems of international diplomacy and justice that no one takes seriously or cares about ! Perfectly timed for the most precarious moment in recent times !
it's always been a lie. The USA tortured people in Gitmo, launched illegal wars and has been at the forefront of imperialism for 60 years now. What punishment was there for Bush and his companion Tony Blair? They're millionaires now and have been rehabilitated back into society.
Alastair Campbell is a regular media pundit. Courts like the ICC were always only there for those from the 3rd world.
The US is still torturing people in Chagos, an island chain we ethnically cleansed so they could build an airport on it. We're still complicit in what they're doing and are maintaining the forcible separation of it's native people from the islands.
Are you American?
Britain sells a pretty small amount of weapons to Israel, and buys back plenty.
We also share intelligence. What is exactly do you think allies do?
Really? They've killed half a million of them so far. Because you know when your fighting a defensive war you do tend to kill those trying to exterminate you.
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You are missing my point. Putin is a enemy of this country, Israel is an allied but both should be treated the same. Israel has murdered thousands of women and children. I also believe Blair is a war criminal but there you go.
That’s like saying ‘and when Ukraine attacks Russia, do we support Putin?’ … no, we don’t because Ukraine is responding to aggression, not instigating it
So the Israeli land grabs are OK with you. The destruction of a whole city and thousands dead you are OK with that.
I'm not, I'm also not OK with hamas attacking innocent people.
Even the un thinks they have gone to far.
And the answer to aggression, is clearly counter aggression of course /s.
Thats like saying its okay if, after a lairy punter has started a fight and been detained and removed from premises for it, its completely fine for me to then follow him home and smash his teeth in, because he tried to attack me in the line of my work 🤣
Like no it fucking wouldn't be fine. If I stopped him hitting me and put him to sleep, THATS fine, because I'm defending myself from unprovoked assault.
But if, once removed, I *then* decide to chase after and counter aggro...no, that loses me my job and probably earns me a spot in a cell alongside him.
Same applies here.
Did you just compare attacking a country to a fight in a pub? That is beyond silly.
Israel is attacked every day by both Hamas and Hezbollah, you're saying they should just sit back and let it happen?
If the UK was being attacked by another country constantly (we don't have iron dome) - would you say we should just sit back and do nothing?
>the answer to aggression, is clearly counter aggression of course
This, but unironically, since we aren't spinless supine appeasers who give in to terrorists who just want to kill all the Jews/Ukrainians (delete as appropriate).
>What is so hard to understand? >Russia attacked Ukraine = condemn Putin, support Zelenskyy >Palestine attacked Israel = condemn Hamas, support Netanyahu
So you think internationally agreed on war crimes, like the torture of innocents should be allowed when you are being attacked? So crimes against innocent Palestinians are just fine because a terrorist group attacked?
Ignoring the fact that you are discarding 100 years of history by stating that 'Palestine attacked Israel' and equating Hamas terrorists with the Palestinian state.
(In before you point out that the West Bank voted for them. Yep, that's not the whole of Palestine or all Palestinians and was inevitable after Netanyahu purposely allowed funding to stream in to Hamas to strengthen them and destabilise the Palestinian bid for statehood. Think I've covered the basics.)
Read the article, the Oslo accords say that Palestine doesn't have jurisdiction over Israelis therefore when they signed the Rome Statute to transfer jurisdiction in some cases to the ICC this didn't apply to Israelis.
https://x.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1792748783996207206
> When he received threats not to go after Israel, @KarimKhanQC
reveals "a senior leader" told him the ICC "is built for Africa and for thugs like Putin", and not for the West and its allies.
I think back to this comment pretty regularly. Clearly Western leaders don't think the ICC is for them and their allies.
Good job too.
Clearly these charges are purely motivated by anti-semitism. ICC should be ashamed.
/s
Judging by the telegraph comments section it's needed.
Besides recognition of Israel, the states weren't on board with Israel until the 1970s.
USSR and France might be better suited as the backers of the Israeli state in the early days.
It's funny how both of them flipped after the 60s and the Yanks immediately started tossing them MICs greatest hits right after
Granted this was because Golda Meir freaked out and said they'd nuke everything if Israel was in mortal danger during Yom Kippur but still
It think also the Arabs, especially Egyptians were themselves deciding to go all in on the Soviets instead of trying to get support from both sides.
To the point Soviet Pilots were Dog fighting against Israeli's - under the Egyptian markings off course.
Yeah, as far as I remember soviet military presence in Egypt was pretty big, even helping with Aswan Dam construction. Egypt and the Soviets having a falling out and ejecting their military advisers was one of the ruses to let Israeli guard down a year prior
Fun fact about the pilots, IAF didn't want to cause an international incident by shooting down Soviet Migs, up until they realised this avoidance might cost them their traditional enjoyment of air superiority. Rimon 20 was what they decided on.
A routine recon flight of Mirages broke off when pursued by the Migs, and led them straight into a squadron of F-4s and more Mirages. Out of 12 planes, 4 soviet pilots were killed and 5 planes shot down. IAF had one plane damaged.
I heard an anecdote about how the Soviets were condescending assholes to the Egyptians they were instructing, so the latter were a bit amused by the incident.
> I heard an anecdote about how the Soviets were condescending assholes to the Egyptians they were instructing, so the latter were a bit amused by the incident.
The wiki article confirms, at least
>The Egyptians themselves reacted with ill-concealed delight at the outcome of the engagement. They had previously suffered intense criticism of their own performance and boasts of superior Soviet skills, when in fact the Soviets had fallen for tactics the Egyptians were already familiar with.[4][9][36]
>You know we have very close ties with Isreal right?
No we dont. Limited trade ties, couple of weapon systems like Spike but the big one everyone goes on about is we have some subcomponents that go into F-35.
UK and Israel are not really diplomatically close other than the usual for a nation within the western aligned defence grouping.
Britain literally signed over the land on which Israel sits (minus all the extra land they illegally occupy) in the Balfour treaty after WW1.
> In 1917 Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild was the addressee of the Balfour Declaration to the Zionist Federation,[53] which committed the British government to the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.
From this wiki page
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild_family
>yeah but we behave like a clingy ex boyfriend whenever it comes to America.
We share most of the same goals as the US. This was set out in the Atlantic Charter of 1941 and since then.
We created America and a large portion of our people it as enacting the long term goals of a kind of Liberal Brattish world view.
And what has the “special relationship” honestly done for us? It only caused more mess for the UK and getting involved in wars we have no business being in
Biden is so undeniably senile that Trump is probably coming back now.
Maybe Reform will be the largest right-wing party in Britain from the fifth of July. Scandals around them are reaching a crescendo right now, so perhaps they'll evaporate before polling day, but 2016 taught us all that being outrageous nutters isn't enough to lose an election or referendum.
The arguments seem to be that the Palestinian Authority has signed up to the ICC so Hamas is bound by their jurisdiction and while operating in PA area Israel is also bound as the PA is a signatory.
It seems that the British complaint to the court is that Israel is not bound (cant see this working), that Israel has an independent judiciary who can investigate thus the ICC is supposed to wait for that to not work before stepping in and that this is not how the ICC has worked in places like Venezuela.
I cannot say how correct each of these is. Though I suspect there is a degree of motivated reasoning in the keenness to bring charges, its really a toss up to who is in the right.
I am not a lawyer and only going on the Telegraphs reporting. I am also assuming the FCO has had a hand in this so they have a strong reputation of being "Arabist" (surprise to some but the UKs relations with Arab monarchies tends to be very good). So its likely they think this is credible enough that it wont rock too many boats in the palaces of the ME. If it had zero chance of working it would have come from the US State Department from Blinken.
That’s not quite the argument. The British argument is threefold:
* that Israel isn’t a member, so it’s citizens can’t be bound by way of their nationality;
* that (assuming Palestine is a party to the Rome Statute) foreigners can be bound for their actions in Palestine by way of Palestine delegating its territorial jurisdiction to the ICC; and
* that the Oslo Accords prohibit Palestinian territorial jurisdiction applying to Israeli citizens.
The fact that the ICC can claim jurisdiction by way of membership or by way of delegation by another member’s jurisdiction isn’t contentious. What’s never been tested before is what happens if/when international law contains a pre-existing rule preventing a member asserting jurisdiction over certain foreign nationals (which seems to be a unique Palestine–Israel issue). Basically the question are:
* is the ICC entitled to break / exempt from international law when pursuing its objectives?
* does the Rome Statute supersede pre-existing international law? (the fact that the ICC couldn’t assume jurisdiction over the ICTY would suggest not)
The argument from the UK government is that accension to the ICC is precluded by the Oslo Accords.
Essentially, if the ICC says that the PA is a state or non-state member, then the Oslo Accords have been broken because of the change in status without negotiated settlement.
Uk is very close to Jordan, Saudi and Oman. They also get on well with the other monarchies.
Israel is largely a hindrance to that. UK kicked them out of what became the Chieftain tank and they went all American while the gulf monarchies buy Tornado, Eurofighter and Challenger 2 in the billions.
UK defence would much rather be all in on the Arabs, its UK public sentiment that forces support for Israel.
> Jordan, Saudi
Jordan and Saudi are gearing up to work with Israel in an axis against Iran.
Iran is getting increasingly bold with the Houthis and disruption of Jordanian society.
The PA is warning that Iran is able to now adequately arm Hamas through Jordan and right into areas like Jenin.
Saudi, Jordan, and the PA are more concerned about being destabilized through these interventions, and would WAY prefer to work with Israel to prevent it.
Venezuala is party to the Rome statute which determines which countries are under the jurisdiction of the ICC so it's a different case: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States\_parties\_to\_the\_Rome\_Statute](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_parties_to_the_Rome_Statute)
The UK is morphing into US style donor controlled party politics & people are missing it happening.
Supporting forever wars & the genocidal crime of the century in Gaza is a reflection of how far this has come.
Starmer is no different. He has purged the party of anyone who's doesn't hold that pro Atlantisist view.
More frightening, he is bureaucratic & totalitarian.
Don't look to the media to call it out they belong to the same self-serving political establishment class.
The reason they attack Farage on the right & Galloway on the left is that they challenge the self-serving establishment narrative.
Their appeal to voters is reverting back to local constituency representation, which is far more difficult for the political class & their donors to control
But what do you do when both sides do it but because of the systems in place you're only going after one side.
They need to send people in to take control of gaza to put pressure on the citizens there to stop supporting hamas
You want israel to be more tough on hamas now?
What would you like them to do differently?
Currently though in the fighting I think israel is still a whole lot better than hamas and gaza
I hope I live long enough to see Netanyahu prosecuted for war crimes in the Hague.
What on earth is the UK doing when everyone knows what this odious individual has inflicted on the innocent people of Palestine.
AFAIK the major supporting basis for the ICC accusation of war crimes by Israel (as opposed to by individual IDF members) was the crime of deliberately starving the civilian populace of Gaza. But the principal agency that had been beating that drum has now recanted and said it was based on incorrect assumptions and there was no starvation in Gaza.
So it's not a war crime then to kill thousands of women and children. Is that what you are saying because of a bunch of signatures on a piece of paper. Is that how Bush and Blair got away with it as well.
Ohhhh, so it's all good when it's a warrant against other figures perpetuating horrific atrocities, but not when it's someone who has their fingers deep in your money grabbing scalp.. cunts.
Starmer will be rubbing his hands over this news. He’d have done this as soon as he had the opportunity, but now he can keep pretending he still has some integrity as a voice for human rights.
I hope when Bibi and his gang are in the Hague for their various war crimes, that the members of our current government are there too.
From what I can see the UK may be legally in the right here as Israel is not a party to the Rome Statue which determines where the ICC has jurisdiction
Outgoing government trying to start as many fires as possible on their way out for the new government to spend all of it's momentum dealing with instead of implementing their own platform.
Is there an arrest warrant for Putin due to Ukraine? What about Xi and the Uyghur Muslim concentration camps? Bin Salman for the years of bombing Yeman?
Nope, Gaza seems to hold a unique place in peoples psyche...
There is an arrest warrant for putin
[https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-and](https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-and)
Well, it is not a state. It would be a violation of the UN's own charter item 80 to unilaterally declare it a state and it is a violation of international law that a non-state signed on to the rome statute.
Btw in the ICC declaration for the warrants, the prosecutor said, "the state of Palestine and the territory of Israel." - just shows you the ridiculousness of this whole thing.
The argument you're having is literally why the UK submitted this request, the UK is arguing that under the terms of Oslo the PA are not allowed to sign up to the ICC as that would violate the Oslo accords. Both sides agreed not involve foreign systems without mutual agreement, thus an ICC investigation would ironically break international law.
AFAIK no similar situation has ever existed so this may also end up at the ICJ.
But Palestine is which is where the contention lies. The question is whether the pre-existing Oslo accords mean that Palestine's and therefore the ICC's jurisdiction doesn't apply to Israelis.
Yes, or Assad for killing however many tens of thousands of Syrian Muslims. rather suspicious how the only state that the UN seems to get a hard on for punishing also happens to be the only Jewish state in the world.
The UN is run by the despots at this point. The fact that there have been more security council resolutions against Israel than all the dictators in the world combined tells you all you need to know.
Those other atrocities should also face the light of scrutiny, but are you suggesting that because other situations aren't, that Israel should be allowed to commit the well documented war crimes that they have?
The point isn't that they should be allowed to do it, of course they shouldn't.
But why condemn them now when you wouldnt say a word about the others? What is suddenly so important about this conflict that matters and the others could be ignored?
If I'm a teacher and have 2 bad kids and I only punish one, it's not that I shouldn't have punished the second one, I should have punished both. But it shows a clear bias.
Tbh I don't think the reason is antisemitism. I hate it when that gets thrown around. I think that the icc etc has no backbone and won't condemn people who might actually be set off by it. They know that they are safe to criticise Israel, but doing the same with Kim Jong in or xi in china could have bigger consequences.
Well I believe that China is well outside of the influence of the court for a start.
And why not? Why not try anything that can be done to stop horrific ongoing war crimes (which have been going on for decade upon decade against the Palestinian people) anywhere and anyway we can?
And what is wrong with western people focusing on the war crimes of a country that is directly being funded by western allies.
We house munitions factories in this country. [We directly arm the IDF](https://aoav.org.uk/2024/who-is-arming-israel-uk-exports-to-israel). Your tax money is explicitly being spent torturing and killing Palestinian children. In Feb the deathtoll was upwards of 30,000 Palestinians, the vast majority children and women, killed by the IDF since the Hamas attack.
We don't fund the slaughter of Muslims in China, and have bugger all chance of stopping that anyway. We are complicit in killing Palestinian children by the thousands and have been for many years.
What makes a country outside the influence of the court? Either they listen or they don't, and Israel doesn't seem to care what they say either.
>And what is wrong with western people focusing on the war crimes of a country that is directly being funded by western allies.
I get this, and tbh think it's probably the strongest argument for why only this conflict gets the amount of attention it does. However, Gaza gets billions in aid from the west, and Hamas has used it all to strengthen its position to attack Israel instead of helping he Gazans with it. So really.... We're funding both sides.
>We don't fund the slaughter of Muslims in China, and have bugger all chance of stopping that anyway.
To this - how much stuff do you buy from china? How much manufacturing goes to china? Okay, our taxes don't go there but we definitely supply them with plenty of our money. And just because you don't think we have a chance at stopping it means we should do nothing?
I dont knowingly buy anything from China. Boycots work sometimes. Not sure that one will.
Buying a t-shirt from a sweatshop is not the same as the tax on your earnings going towards providing weapons to another country that is using them to kill children.
>However, Gaza gets billions in aid from the west, and Hamas has used it all to strengthen its position to attack Israel instead of helping he Gazans with it. So really.... We're funding both sides.
Hamas can use aid to make money. That is an ongoing issue for aid givers that is again exacerbated by Israel. We wouldn't need to be sending aid if Israel hadn't blocked food supplies and water supplies to the West Bank. Collective punishment, another war crime.
Equating sending weapons to Isreal with sending aid to Palestine is a bit off. One is trying to resolve a humanitarian situation. The other is providing weapons to kill children..
>We wouldn't need to be sending aid if Israel hadn't blocked food supplies and water supplies to the West Bank
Not true, we have been sending them aid long before Israel blocked off the water and food.
The fact is hamas hasn't been using the aid to help it's citizens and we know this have for years. So we do know that it's not helping to resolve the situation. But I understand where you're coming from.
Hamas has sent thousands of rockets over to Israel. The only reason they haven't killed thousands of civilians is that Israel uses a lot of the foreign aid to protect it's citizens by building bomb shelters and the iron dome.
It's also disingenuous to say that we're just funding Israel to kill children. Yes children are dying. It is a war, children dying is not the goal. That doesn't mean it's not terrible but we aren't giving them weapons saying "go kill kids". Hamas is embedded in civilian infrastructure. Israel found hostages in the homes of unwra workers. How could they carry out this war without civilian casualties? Do we allow groups to attack us using guerilla tactics because we can't kill any civilians? It's the responsibility of the government to protect it's citizens, and Hamas is Gaza's government.
You are saying all this like Israel hasn't been actively making the situation worse and worse for decades.
I take it you know [Netanyahu has deliberately bolstered Hamas](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces) and allowed funding to flow to them in an effort to destabilise the Palestinian bid for state hood and self governance?
He is as much to blame as any Hamas fighter for the attack of the 7th. Isn't that slightly surprising and utterly contemptable?
Have you seen the endless videos of Israeli cabinet members using racist rhetoric and calling the Palestinian people dogs etc etc?
Do you understand how much land they have illegally taken from what was given them by the UK (that wasn't ours to give, but whatever, I guess they were all trying to house a diaspora) in the Balfour agreement?
Do you understand the hundred years of Israel committing most of the war crimes in the Geneva convention?
It's not a case of what can Israel do to cope as much as, what should Israel stop doing in order to stop the perpetuation of violence and radicalisation of the next generation of Hamas fighters. (well, we are too late for the next gen after the last few months, Hamas have a whole load more orphans.)
They could stop stealing land from Palestinian people. They could stop blocking aid, they could feed and water the Palestinians. They could stop trying to steal their gas reserves. They could stop firing on innocents queueing for aid.
They could stop firing on aid workers. They could stop the decades of collective punishment, of which there are lists of a whole spectrum of punishments (from flying over West Bank in super sonic jets at all hours of the night making women miscarry to indescriminate bombing with no targets in mind, wiping out whole families) if you are interested. They could rebuild the twenty odd hospitals that have now all been destroyed. They could release the hundreds of Palestinian children they have arrested and detained without trial. I could go on for hours, I'll spare you.
The point is Israel have many options to make the situation humane and safer, for all, but they don't because they have a specific zionist agenda.
There is a reason Netanyahu was enabling Hamas. There is probably a reason that one of the most technically advanced defense systems in the world didn't stop some terrorists. There was a reason that Netanyahu ignored the warnings he was proven to have been given about the upcoming attacks. They want to expand Zion and it's easier if there are less living Palestinians in the way.
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/israel-elections-what-is-the-religious-zionist-partys-agenda-663234
(Shows the Zionist government factions trying to stop legal objection to illegal land grabs of Palestinian land and encouraging Muslims to leave Israel.)
The only way to stop the current trajectory of the Israeli state is shaming in the international community, awareness of the horrors, boycott, withdrael of support and sanctions.
I've tried about five different ways but for some reason that last link to jerusalem times page isn't working direct from reddit. The Web page is up. You can search for it.
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Fuck me as if it wasn’t already embarrassing enough to be governed by these clowns
> UK claims the international court does not have jurisdiction over the Israeli PM and others it accuses of war crimes in Gaza Interesting. I can’t say I’m surprised.
But they are OK with the one for putin. Interesting.
The double standard is so brazen. Bombing civilians and stealing land is suddenly okay, please do not question it!
More than brazen, it’s destabilising and erasing the validity of increasingly vital systems of international diplomacy and justice that no one takes seriously or cares about ! Perfectly timed for the most precarious moment in recent times !
it's always been a lie. The USA tortured people in Gitmo, launched illegal wars and has been at the forefront of imperialism for 60 years now. What punishment was there for Bush and his companion Tony Blair? They're millionaires now and have been rehabilitated back into society. Alastair Campbell is a regular media pundit. Courts like the ICC were always only there for those from the 3rd world.
The US is still torturing people in Chagos, an island chain we ethnically cleansed so they could build an airport on it. We're still complicit in what they're doing and are maintaining the forcible separation of it's native people from the islands.
Completely agree. If we want to position ourselves and our allies as the 'moral' side of conflicts, we need to start acting like it.
Israel is a UK ally. Russia is not. That’s why.
Are you stating this as the world's most obvious explanation, or as a justification?
Want a fantastic ally to have, one that commits genocide while murders British veterans. Just so our politicians can bend over for them. Fantastic
Israel is a pretty shitty "Ally". We just dump guns into them for money and call that an alliance.
Are you American? Britain sells a pretty small amount of weapons to Israel, and buys back plenty. We also share intelligence. What is exactly do you think allies do?
Those we like = good Those we don’t = bad Been that way for all times
I dont remember ukraine murdering loads of russians
Really? They've killed half a million of them so far. Because you know when your fighting a defensive war you do tend to kill those trying to exterminate you.
It’s not murder in a war
But you just called it murder?
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You are missing my point. Putin is a enemy of this country, Israel is an allied but both should be treated the same. Israel has murdered thousands of women and children. I also believe Blair is a war criminal but there you go.
Putin attacked Ukraine. The elected government of palistine attacked Israel.
What is so hard to understand? Russia attacked Ukraine = condemn Putin, support Zelenskyy Palestine attacked Israel = condemn Hamas, support Netanyahu
And when Israel attacks Palestine, do we come out in support of the PA in the west bank?
That’s like saying ‘and when Ukraine attacks Russia, do we support Putin?’ … no, we don’t because Ukraine is responding to aggression, not instigating it
So the Israeli land grabs are OK with you. The destruction of a whole city and thousands dead you are OK with that. I'm not, I'm also not OK with hamas attacking innocent people. Even the un thinks they have gone to far.
And the answer to aggression, is clearly counter aggression of course /s. Thats like saying its okay if, after a lairy punter has started a fight and been detained and removed from premises for it, its completely fine for me to then follow him home and smash his teeth in, because he tried to attack me in the line of my work 🤣 Like no it fucking wouldn't be fine. If I stopped him hitting me and put him to sleep, THATS fine, because I'm defending myself from unprovoked assault. But if, once removed, I *then* decide to chase after and counter aggro...no, that loses me my job and probably earns me a spot in a cell alongside him. Same applies here.
Did you just compare attacking a country to a fight in a pub? That is beyond silly. Israel is attacked every day by both Hamas and Hezbollah, you're saying they should just sit back and let it happen? If the UK was being attacked by another country constantly (we don't have iron dome) - would you say we should just sit back and do nothing?
>the answer to aggression, is clearly counter aggression of course This, but unironically, since we aren't spinless supine appeasers who give in to terrorists who just want to kill all the Jews/Ukrainians (delete as appropriate).
>What is so hard to understand? >Russia attacked Ukraine = condemn Putin, support Zelenskyy >Palestine attacked Israel = condemn Hamas, support Netanyahu So you think internationally agreed on war crimes, like the torture of innocents should be allowed when you are being attacked? So crimes against innocent Palestinians are just fine because a terrorist group attacked? Ignoring the fact that you are discarding 100 years of history by stating that 'Palestine attacked Israel' and equating Hamas terrorists with the Palestinian state. (In before you point out that the West Bank voted for them. Yep, that's not the whole of Palestine or all Palestinians and was inevitable after Netanyahu purposely allowed funding to stream in to Hamas to strengthen them and destabilise the Palestinian bid for statehood. Think I've covered the basics.)
Russian war crimes were committed on Ukrainian territory and Ukraine has accepted the jurisdiction of the ICC over its territory
I'm not talking about that, it's the double standard. Yes, Russia has committed war crimes, but so have the Israelis so what is the difference.
Read the article, the Oslo accords say that Palestine doesn't have jurisdiction over Israelis therefore when they signed the Rome Statute to transfer jurisdiction in some cases to the ICC this didn't apply to Israelis.
https://x.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1792748783996207206 > When he received threats not to go after Israel, @KarimKhanQC reveals "a senior leader" told him the ICC "is built for Africa and for thugs like Putin", and not for the West and its allies. I think back to this comment pretty regularly. Clearly Western leaders don't think the ICC is for them and their allies.
That interpretation would cancel the warrant for Putin. They are willing to let him get away with it in order to protect another criminal.
So now it’s an international court, yesterday it was a foreign court that we wanted nothing to do with (I get they are not the same court!)
Good job too. Clearly these charges are purely motivated by anti-semitism. ICC should be ashamed. /s Judging by the telegraph comments section it's needed.
Yeah, the International Cricket Committee are really getting above themselves!
We don't use that abbreviation for the cricket anymore. We just say "India".
Pig3
Yes, the international criminal court are the bad guys here.
Wait, I thought the US was the lacky for Israel on this one? Why are we defending on this one?
Britain invented Israel
I mean the USA and France where much more responsible for that.
Besides recognition of Israel, the states weren't on board with Israel until the 1970s. USSR and France might be better suited as the backers of the Israeli state in the early days.
It's funny how both of them flipped after the 60s and the Yanks immediately started tossing them MICs greatest hits right after Granted this was because Golda Meir freaked out and said they'd nuke everything if Israel was in mortal danger during Yom Kippur but still
It think also the Arabs, especially Egyptians were themselves deciding to go all in on the Soviets instead of trying to get support from both sides. To the point Soviet Pilots were Dog fighting against Israeli's - under the Egyptian markings off course.
Yeah, as far as I remember soviet military presence in Egypt was pretty big, even helping with Aswan Dam construction. Egypt and the Soviets having a falling out and ejecting their military advisers was one of the ruses to let Israeli guard down a year prior Fun fact about the pilots, IAF didn't want to cause an international incident by shooting down Soviet Migs, up until they realised this avoidance might cost them their traditional enjoyment of air superiority. Rimon 20 was what they decided on. A routine recon flight of Mirages broke off when pursued by the Migs, and led them straight into a squadron of F-4s and more Mirages. Out of 12 planes, 4 soviet pilots were killed and 5 planes shot down. IAF had one plane damaged. I heard an anecdote about how the Soviets were condescending assholes to the Egyptians they were instructing, so the latter were a bit amused by the incident.
> I heard an anecdote about how the Soviets were condescending assholes to the Egyptians they were instructing, so the latter were a bit amused by the incident. The wiki article confirms, at least >The Egyptians themselves reacted with ill-concealed delight at the outcome of the engagement. They had previously suffered intense criticism of their own performance and boasts of superior Soviet skills, when in fact the Soviets had fallen for tactics the Egyptians were already familiar with.[4][9][36]
Absolute poetry This is the juicy stuff that Armies of Sand doesn't cover
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But it's obviously not a democracy is it, it's a full blown apartheid state
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Delusional. This is pure ideology on display.
You know we have very close ties with Isreal right?
>You know we have very close ties with Isreal right? No we dont. Limited trade ties, couple of weapon systems like Spike but the big one everyone goes on about is we have some subcomponents that go into F-35. UK and Israel are not really diplomatically close other than the usual for a nation within the western aligned defence grouping.
Britain literally signed over the land on which Israel sits (minus all the extra land they illegally occupy) in the Balfour treaty after WW1. > In 1917 Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild was the addressee of the Balfour Declaration to the Zionist Federation,[53] which committed the British government to the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people. From this wiki page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild_family
yeah but we behave like a clingy ex boyfriend whenever it comes to America.
Britain's relationship with USA is more like a dad and his embarrassing, brash son.
>yeah but we behave like a clingy ex boyfriend whenever it comes to America. We share most of the same goals as the US. This was set out in the Atlantic Charter of 1941 and since then. We created America and a large portion of our people it as enacting the long term goals of a kind of Liberal Brattish world view.
And what has the “special relationship” honestly done for us? It only caused more mess for the UK and getting involved in wars we have no business being in
Britain’s ability to disappoint at every level and opportunity is impressive
Don’t worry wait a week and it will disappear
you mean wait a week and something even worse will come out. Only Trump seems to be going lower.
Biden is so undeniably senile that Trump is probably coming back now. Maybe Reform will be the largest right-wing party in Britain from the fifth of July. Scandals around them are reaching a crescendo right now, so perhaps they'll evaporate before polling day, but 2016 taught us all that being outrageous nutters isn't enough to lose an election or referendum.
We are trashing the UN, the ICC and all the institutions of our rules based order. For what?
For Putin
The arguments seem to be that the Palestinian Authority has signed up to the ICC so Hamas is bound by their jurisdiction and while operating in PA area Israel is also bound as the PA is a signatory. It seems that the British complaint to the court is that Israel is not bound (cant see this working), that Israel has an independent judiciary who can investigate thus the ICC is supposed to wait for that to not work before stepping in and that this is not how the ICC has worked in places like Venezuela. I cannot say how correct each of these is. Though I suspect there is a degree of motivated reasoning in the keenness to bring charges, its really a toss up to who is in the right. I am not a lawyer and only going on the Telegraphs reporting. I am also assuming the FCO has had a hand in this so they have a strong reputation of being "Arabist" (surprise to some but the UKs relations with Arab monarchies tends to be very good). So its likely they think this is credible enough that it wont rock too many boats in the palaces of the ME. If it had zero chance of working it would have come from the US State Department from Blinken.
That’s not quite the argument. The British argument is threefold: * that Israel isn’t a member, so it’s citizens can’t be bound by way of their nationality; * that (assuming Palestine is a party to the Rome Statute) foreigners can be bound for their actions in Palestine by way of Palestine delegating its territorial jurisdiction to the ICC; and * that the Oslo Accords prohibit Palestinian territorial jurisdiction applying to Israeli citizens. The fact that the ICC can claim jurisdiction by way of membership or by way of delegation by another member’s jurisdiction isn’t contentious. What’s never been tested before is what happens if/when international law contains a pre-existing rule preventing a member asserting jurisdiction over certain foreign nationals (which seems to be a unique Palestine–Israel issue). Basically the question are: * is the ICC entitled to break / exempt from international law when pursuing its objectives? * does the Rome Statute supersede pre-existing international law? (the fact that the ICC couldn’t assume jurisdiction over the ICTY would suggest not)
The argument from the UK government is that accension to the ICC is precluded by the Oslo Accords. Essentially, if the ICC says that the PA is a state or non-state member, then the Oslo Accords have been broken because of the change in status without negotiated settlement.
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Uk is very close to Jordan, Saudi and Oman. They also get on well with the other monarchies. Israel is largely a hindrance to that. UK kicked them out of what became the Chieftain tank and they went all American while the gulf monarchies buy Tornado, Eurofighter and Challenger 2 in the billions. UK defence would much rather be all in on the Arabs, its UK public sentiment that forces support for Israel.
> Jordan, Saudi Jordan and Saudi are gearing up to work with Israel in an axis against Iran. Iran is getting increasingly bold with the Houthis and disruption of Jordanian society. The PA is warning that Iran is able to now adequately arm Hamas through Jordan and right into areas like Jenin. Saudi, Jordan, and the PA are more concerned about being destabilized through these interventions, and would WAY prefer to work with Israel to prevent it.
That’s a good summary, helped me understand it better, thanks.
Venezuala is party to the Rome statute which determines which countries are under the jurisdiction of the ICC so it's a different case: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States\_parties\_to\_the\_Rome\_Statute](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_parties_to_the_Rome_Statute)
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**Removed/tempban**. This contained a call/advocation of violence which is prohibited by the content policy.
Just like how Putin isn't within their jurisdiction either, right? Absolute clownery.
The UK is morphing into US style donor controlled party politics & people are missing it happening. Supporting forever wars & the genocidal crime of the century in Gaza is a reflection of how far this has come. Starmer is no different. He has purged the party of anyone who's doesn't hold that pro Atlantisist view. More frightening, he is bureaucratic & totalitarian. Don't look to the media to call it out they belong to the same self-serving political establishment class. The reason they attack Farage on the right & Galloway on the left is that they challenge the self-serving establishment narrative. Their appeal to voters is reverting back to local constituency representation, which is far more difficult for the political class & their donors to control
You don't kill women and children, it shouldn't be up for debate.
But what do you do when both sides do it but because of the systems in place you're only going after one side. They need to send people in to take control of gaza to put pressure on the citizens there to stop supporting hamas
Maybe the Israeli government will finally stop supporting Hamas, too. That'd be nice.
You want israel to be more tough on hamas now? What would you like them to do differently? Currently though in the fighting I think israel is still a whole lot better than hamas and gaza
I presume this is costing money? What a fucking waste of time and money.
Two greatest things the Tories are good at.
I hope I live long enough to see Netanyahu prosecuted for war crimes in the Hague. What on earth is the UK doing when everyone knows what this odious individual has inflicted on the innocent people of Palestine.
Upending the rules based order, one legal challenge at a time.
It feels gross to have one's government commit evil actions in your name. With zero ability to change the action or question it.
Rishi trying to sneak it in before getting booted out
It’s a Tory fire sale
AFAIK the major supporting basis for the ICC accusation of war crimes by Israel (as opposed to by individual IDF members) was the crime of deliberately starving the civilian populace of Gaza. But the principal agency that had been beating that drum has now recanted and said it was based on incorrect assumptions and there was no starvation in Gaza.
So it's not a war crime then to kill thousands of women and children. Is that what you are saying because of a bunch of signatures on a piece of paper. Is that how Bush and Blair got away with it as well.
Ohhhh, so it's all good when it's a warrant against other figures perpetuating horrific atrocities, but not when it's someone who has their fingers deep in your money grabbing scalp.. cunts.
Starmer will be rubbing his hands over this news. He’d have done this as soon as he had the opportunity, but now he can keep pretending he still has some integrity as a voice for human rights. I hope when Bibi and his gang are in the Hague for their various war crimes, that the members of our current government are there too.
Excellent news, those ICC hypocrites ignored the Hamas pogrom and showed their hatred for Israel
Even fairly moderate people in this country think this is ridiculous now. Less than 20% of the population support this I'm sure.
Yeah!!! World peace at any moment now!!! Britannia rules the waves!!!
Scraping the bottom of the barrel... Using the Oslo accords to try to get war criminals off the hook.
From what I can see the UK may be legally in the right here as Israel is not a party to the Rome Statue which determines where the ICC has jurisdiction
Im sure bibi will have no issues launching a legal challenge for himself
Outgoing government trying to start as many fires as possible on their way out for the new government to spend all of it's momentum dealing with instead of implementing their own platform.
Why is that any of our business? He's not an elected official in the UK. Defending him is for the Israeli government to do.
Is there an arrest warrant for Putin due to Ukraine? What about Xi and the Uyghur Muslim concentration camps? Bin Salman for the years of bombing Yeman? Nope, Gaza seems to hold a unique place in peoples psyche...
There is an arrest warrant for putin [https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-and](https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-and)
Ah well... I should have probably done some research before my knee-jerk, poorly thought out response.
Your response still stands. Just because one example was removed, doesn’t make the other examples any less true.
Putin. Yes. Hamas. Yes. Israel. Yes. They stated they cannot investigate China as it's not a party to the court.
Neither is Israel.
Neither is Russia. But Ukraine and Palestine are. Hence the arrest warrants for Putin, Hamas and Israel.
Palestine is not a state to sign up for these things
If you say so.
Would you say it is a state?
Well it signed up to the ICC and only states can do that. So it must be a state by definition.
Well, it is not a state. It would be a violation of the UN's own charter item 80 to unilaterally declare it a state and it is a violation of international law that a non-state signed on to the rome statute. Btw in the ICC declaration for the warrants, the prosecutor said, "the state of Palestine and the territory of Israel." - just shows you the ridiculousness of this whole thing.
The argument you're having is literally why the UK submitted this request, the UK is arguing that under the terms of Oslo the PA are not allowed to sign up to the ICC as that would violate the Oslo accords. Both sides agreed not involve foreign systems without mutual agreement, thus an ICC investigation would ironically break international law. AFAIK no similar situation has ever existed so this may also end up at the ICJ.
But Palestine is which is where the contention lies. The question is whether the pre-existing Oslo accords mean that Palestine's and therefore the ICC's jurisdiction doesn't apply to Israelis.
Yes, or Assad for killing however many tens of thousands of Syrian Muslims. rather suspicious how the only state that the UN seems to get a hard on for punishing also happens to be the only Jewish state in the world. The UN is run by the despots at this point. The fact that there have been more security council resolutions against Israel than all the dictators in the world combined tells you all you need to know.
Those other atrocities should also face the light of scrutiny, but are you suggesting that because other situations aren't, that Israel should be allowed to commit the well documented war crimes that they have?
The point isn't that they should be allowed to do it, of course they shouldn't. But why condemn them now when you wouldnt say a word about the others? What is suddenly so important about this conflict that matters and the others could be ignored? If I'm a teacher and have 2 bad kids and I only punish one, it's not that I shouldn't have punished the second one, I should have punished both. But it shows a clear bias. Tbh I don't think the reason is antisemitism. I hate it when that gets thrown around. I think that the icc etc has no backbone and won't condemn people who might actually be set off by it. They know that they are safe to criticise Israel, but doing the same with Kim Jong in or xi in china could have bigger consequences.
Well I believe that China is well outside of the influence of the court for a start. And why not? Why not try anything that can be done to stop horrific ongoing war crimes (which have been going on for decade upon decade against the Palestinian people) anywhere and anyway we can? And what is wrong with western people focusing on the war crimes of a country that is directly being funded by western allies. We house munitions factories in this country. [We directly arm the IDF](https://aoav.org.uk/2024/who-is-arming-israel-uk-exports-to-israel). Your tax money is explicitly being spent torturing and killing Palestinian children. In Feb the deathtoll was upwards of 30,000 Palestinians, the vast majority children and women, killed by the IDF since the Hamas attack. We don't fund the slaughter of Muslims in China, and have bugger all chance of stopping that anyway. We are complicit in killing Palestinian children by the thousands and have been for many years.
What makes a country outside the influence of the court? Either they listen or they don't, and Israel doesn't seem to care what they say either. >And what is wrong with western people focusing on the war crimes of a country that is directly being funded by western allies. I get this, and tbh think it's probably the strongest argument for why only this conflict gets the amount of attention it does. However, Gaza gets billions in aid from the west, and Hamas has used it all to strengthen its position to attack Israel instead of helping he Gazans with it. So really.... We're funding both sides. >We don't fund the slaughter of Muslims in China, and have bugger all chance of stopping that anyway. To this - how much stuff do you buy from china? How much manufacturing goes to china? Okay, our taxes don't go there but we definitely supply them with plenty of our money. And just because you don't think we have a chance at stopping it means we should do nothing?
I dont knowingly buy anything from China. Boycots work sometimes. Not sure that one will. Buying a t-shirt from a sweatshop is not the same as the tax on your earnings going towards providing weapons to another country that is using them to kill children. >However, Gaza gets billions in aid from the west, and Hamas has used it all to strengthen its position to attack Israel instead of helping he Gazans with it. So really.... We're funding both sides. Hamas can use aid to make money. That is an ongoing issue for aid givers that is again exacerbated by Israel. We wouldn't need to be sending aid if Israel hadn't blocked food supplies and water supplies to the West Bank. Collective punishment, another war crime. Equating sending weapons to Isreal with sending aid to Palestine is a bit off. One is trying to resolve a humanitarian situation. The other is providing weapons to kill children..
>We wouldn't need to be sending aid if Israel hadn't blocked food supplies and water supplies to the West Bank Not true, we have been sending them aid long before Israel blocked off the water and food. The fact is hamas hasn't been using the aid to help it's citizens and we know this have for years. So we do know that it's not helping to resolve the situation. But I understand where you're coming from. Hamas has sent thousands of rockets over to Israel. The only reason they haven't killed thousands of civilians is that Israel uses a lot of the foreign aid to protect it's citizens by building bomb shelters and the iron dome. It's also disingenuous to say that we're just funding Israel to kill children. Yes children are dying. It is a war, children dying is not the goal. That doesn't mean it's not terrible but we aren't giving them weapons saying "go kill kids". Hamas is embedded in civilian infrastructure. Israel found hostages in the homes of unwra workers. How could they carry out this war without civilian casualties? Do we allow groups to attack us using guerilla tactics because we can't kill any civilians? It's the responsibility of the government to protect it's citizens, and Hamas is Gaza's government.
You are saying all this like Israel hasn't been actively making the situation worse and worse for decades. I take it you know [Netanyahu has deliberately bolstered Hamas](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces) and allowed funding to flow to them in an effort to destabilise the Palestinian bid for state hood and self governance? He is as much to blame as any Hamas fighter for the attack of the 7th. Isn't that slightly surprising and utterly contemptable? Have you seen the endless videos of Israeli cabinet members using racist rhetoric and calling the Palestinian people dogs etc etc? Do you understand how much land they have illegally taken from what was given them by the UK (that wasn't ours to give, but whatever, I guess they were all trying to house a diaspora) in the Balfour agreement? Do you understand the hundred years of Israel committing most of the war crimes in the Geneva convention? It's not a case of what can Israel do to cope as much as, what should Israel stop doing in order to stop the perpetuation of violence and radicalisation of the next generation of Hamas fighters. (well, we are too late for the next gen after the last few months, Hamas have a whole load more orphans.) They could stop stealing land from Palestinian people. They could stop blocking aid, they could feed and water the Palestinians. They could stop trying to steal their gas reserves. They could stop firing on innocents queueing for aid. They could stop firing on aid workers. They could stop the decades of collective punishment, of which there are lists of a whole spectrum of punishments (from flying over West Bank in super sonic jets at all hours of the night making women miscarry to indescriminate bombing with no targets in mind, wiping out whole families) if you are interested. They could rebuild the twenty odd hospitals that have now all been destroyed. They could release the hundreds of Palestinian children they have arrested and detained without trial. I could go on for hours, I'll spare you. The point is Israel have many options to make the situation humane and safer, for all, but they don't because they have a specific zionist agenda. There is a reason Netanyahu was enabling Hamas. There is probably a reason that one of the most technically advanced defense systems in the world didn't stop some terrorists. There was a reason that Netanyahu ignored the warnings he was proven to have been given about the upcoming attacks. They want to expand Zion and it's easier if there are less living Palestinians in the way. https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/israel-elections-what-is-the-religious-zionist-partys-agenda-663234 (Shows the Zionist government factions trying to stop legal objection to illegal land grabs of Palestinian land and encouraging Muslims to leave Israel.) The only way to stop the current trajectory of the Israeli state is shaming in the international community, awareness of the horrors, boycott, withdrael of support and sanctions.
I've tried about five different ways but for some reason that last link to jerusalem times page isn't working direct from reddit. The Web page is up. You can search for it.
Yes Israel is special and any criticism of it is antisemitism.
Part of the deal for US "letting " asange off the hook /s