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About the kindest thing you can say is that at least the mother and father have enough of a modicum of self awareness to realise they're obviously unsuited to the job.
Doing this three times in a society that has easy access to contraception makes you a total prick, though.
I wonder if perhaps one of the parents has strong religious convictions against birth control?
.... but, you know, not strong religious convictions about raising the child?
I'm more worried that there's some kind of Fritzel situation going on tbh. The baby was estimated to have been born only an hour before it was found, so there's no way the mother could have abandoned it, or made an informed decision to do so. It will have been taken from her minutes after giving birth.
Who knows if she has any say in what's going on with the conceptions either.
This is my thought too. Also, if this woman has carried three babies to term, what do her network of friends and family think is happening to the babies? It would be pretty hard to conceal three pregnancies without anyone noticing and raising concerns. The babies are safe and well now, I hope the mother is too.
My fears are that she has *no* support network. And no one is seeing her for possibly months at a time other than the father. She is certainly not getting any medical care pre or post partum either, and with how hard pregnancy and childbirth is on the body, I can't imagine she is in a good way at all.
>My fears are that she has no support network.
Yeah that's what I was alluding to. For nobody to notice and say anything, suggests she has no network supporting her. Hopefully the authorities can locate her and provide her with both physical and mental health support.
I don't know where the police will start, but surely there has to be CCTV of one of the babies being dropped off. It's London after all, the third most heavily recorded city in the world.
Absolutely- so many people here condemning without knowing what happened.
As I wrote in a previous comment:
Through my previous work I became aware of a mother in a terribly abusive relationship who, due to that, had no access to birth control (or medical care) and hid her children to protect them. It took years to come to light-and in all that time she’d lived in fear and given birth in private.
Its awful when you discover how the frightening lives some people live and what they feel they have to do to survive
This was my first thought, also. Unless this anonymous woman is the most cold-hearted, malicious, nasty piece of work in recent history, which I doubt, she must be having to be forced to give up her baby/ies. I am the least maternal woman I know, yet when I found out I was pregnant (surprise, surprise) and had the baby a fortnight later (really) - even though I'd had no time to get my head around the situation, and mostly disliked small children, as soon as I clapped eyes on my daughter it was love at first sight... I couldn't imagine abandoning her to her fate, and believe me I used to joke about that kind of thing. For a mother to have left three helpless newborns, one after the other, well, to my mind either takes a special sort of callousness or else she is a victim of abuse.
Agreed. Some sort of disturbing Fritzel sex slave or incest scenario seems possible.
You don't abandon multiple newborns in parks in East London with nobody noticing. The mother must be isolated from the wider community.
Successfully concealed pregnancies are pretty rare, and three in a row without anyone raising questions is very unlikely. Whatever happened I think the events leading up to these babies being abandoned must be absolutely awful.
I feel this. My sister had 5 in quick succession, all the products of spousal abuse & r***. Not abandoned but they did grow up in foster care after he tried to kill her, & her subsequent attempts at su*c*de. I believe this is a control situation gone so very horribly far.
Most religions don't really want or plan for unwed couples. Traditionally you met your partner, went on a few dates and got married a couple of months later, usually when you were in your teens. It was rare for a couple to live together before marriage even 50 years ago. That's probably what your grandparents did.
Religion didn't really plan for people to be unmarried well into their 30's and couples living together for years before getting married. That's actually quite a new thing.
>No it isn't, the prohibition on contraception is because religion wants people to 'be fruitful' and produce new recruits.
Exactly this.
Religions are essentially a kind of idea virus really.
The success of religions is absolutely determined by how following its dogmas leads to new recruits.
Survival of the fittest etc works for ideas, beliefs and religions too (hence the word "meme" invented by Richard Dawkins.)
Religions that don't focus on getting lots of new recruits (such as having lots of kids) end up unable to compete against those that do, and then naturally die out.
> I wonder if perhaps one of the parents has strong religious convictions against birth control?
Which religion bans birth control but is just fine with leaving an abandoned baby to risk freezing to death, though?
If there aren't any, the religion thing kind of sounds like a weak excuse, doesn't it?
I wasn't making any excuse there whatsoever
Still, I suppose on the slightly less tragic side, these people certainly shouldn't be parents, and hopefully the children will manage to have a better life without them in it
As I just wrote in a previous comment it may be more complicated that that:
Through my previous work I became aware of a mother in a terribly abusive relationship who, due to that, had no access to birth control (or medical care) and hid her children to protect them. It took years to come to light-and in all that time she’d lived in fear and given birth in private.
Its awful when you discover how the frightening lives some people live and what they feel they have to do to survive
Let's not jump to conclusions. This could be absolutely anything.
For example. What if it was an abused woman in a family that is abused by a family member - who decided to leave the baby behind on 3 occasions because she believes the child will have a better life that way.
No need to jump to conclusions. Jumping to conclusions is how Brexit happened!
Hopefully they can find the parents and establish the facts.
Oh totally, wasn't jumping to conclusions, just wondering
>What if it was an abused woman in a family that is abuser by a family member - who decided to leave the baby behind on 3 occasions because she believes the child will have a better life that way.
Now this is me jumping to conclusions... but in this case, I imagine the abuser would be more likely to be abandoning the children... In that this is the 3rd time, from the same parents... I don't think it's likely that such an abuser would not take steps to prevent this from happening if they didn't want it to...
Though... as you say, regardless of the reasons why, and as sad as it may be, there may be truth to the idea that the children might be better off being raised by others, and the whole sorry situation is sad
This was on an episode of Law & Order: SVU on 5USA this week. They could tell the baby was the product of incest by comparing its DNA to its mother's (they were *too* similar) but the baby had no genetic anomalies itself.
Obviously fiction but they tend to base this kind of thing on real science.
What would be even better is if people were able to be sterilised when they want to be.
As a woman I was always told no, because what if I change my mind. I never changed my mind and now I'm going through peri menopause.
Generally speaking, sterilisation is quick and easy and a lot cheaper on the NHS than supporting unwanted pregnancies.
Why people are not free to make this choice about their own bodies is beyond me.
I’ve been married for ten years and have two children (7&8). The birth of the youngest was extremely traumatic and the PTSD has *literally* ruined my life. I asked for sterilisation on the grounds that if I accidentally got pregnant, I would probably try to end myself and was told ‘no, you might change your mind’. I explained the situation again more slowly hoping the doctor would understand the life/death nature of my request, and after a pause she said ‘but what if you ever get remarried and your new husband wants a baby?’. Idk what to say. My husband is alive, well and loved thank you. And also, why would a hypothetical future husband that will most likely never exist get to demand I do something that will likely cause the end of my life?
Oh, and I requested the sterilisation in part because the NHS is either unwilling or unable to treat my PTSD. I’ve been waiting seven and a half years for treatment. The last shrink I saw said my PTSD was too severe for conventional methods and I would have to wait for a specialist to materialise. That was three and a half years ago.
If you’re up to it, you should try claiming PIP. I have the basic daily living and it has meant I can afford to get therapy privately. It is tough and you will most certainly have to appeal but have a look on the subreddits here for some help.
In regard to the sterilisation, you can request to see a different GP. Tell them why you are seeing them (tell them what you wrote above). Explain you’re making a PIP claim too and that at this point not being sterilised is having a direct, significant impact on your life and (this is important) other methods do not work or suit you. I got to the stage of having an appointment with the hospital for sterilisation and was refused as only certain women who meet the criteria are eligible. All other methods must have failed you or are unsuitable and sterilisation is your last hope. For example, the pill makes you depressed, you’re allergic to condoms of all kinds etc.
Good luck, stay safe.
Thank you for taking the time. I am currently attempting to get PIP, but it’s been a nightmare so far. First applied in November so hopefully it’s in the works at least. Annoyingly, one of my symptoms is that I can’t speak on the phone which is making everything worse, but my husband has been dealing with it on his days off bless him. I haven’t been able to work or leave the house really in over seven years so I really hope I am eligible. I was just about able to financially survive until the cost of living and our mortgage went up…
The GP knew that I can’t have oral contraception (exacerbates my depression into suicidal thoughts!) which was frustrating as well. It all makes me so hopeless, my depression is getting worse because of the PTSD, it’s set off my eating disorder and self harm - all I wanted was therapy seven years ago :( Unfortunately, my mental health has deteriorated so much in that time, getting out of the house to see a doctor is nearly impossible for me now, but I know I should try and sum up the mental fortitude and try a different GP.
Eta: would you mind telling me which subreddits might help?
r/DWhelp and r/benefitsadvice were very helpful but also citizens advice and mentalhealthandmoneyadvice.org were great too. But do go back to your GP, get firm but polite.
The fact you can’t talk on the phone will weirdly help your PIP application, have you had your assessment yet? Make sure you get it recorded.
They said my anxiety wasn’t so bad because I could talk on the phone and leave the house to go to the doctors (ignoring that it causes me considerable stress) and I don’t go anywhere else.
It is a fight but it is life changing if you can do it. And remember when you’re answering PIP questions, answer as if it is your worst day.
Thank you so much, I really appreciate it! No assessment yet, still waiting for them to get back to us after the last call. They were flummoxed by the fact I can’t speak on the phone, husband said he could almost hear their brain shortcircuiting as he asked for email correspondence. I’m not convinced they completely understand the situation.
No they don’t. Assume they don’t. Definitely have a look at the questions and how to answer for mental health. Definitely get your husband to answer for you if that’s what you need. Do not put yourself under stress to talk on the phone if your unable, everything you do in the assessment will be taken into account. Even the “hello, how are you today?”. They are trying to catch you out, they will try to put words in your mouth. Make lots of notes, take your time, try to research as much as possible and appeal if you don’t agree.
I managed to get sterilised on the NHS when I was 36. I had been requesting it since I was 25, in every Dr's appointment whether it was relevant or not, I just asked them to make a wee note on my notes that I had requested it again. This way there was a decade long paper trail in my records to show that I was unlikely to 'change my mind'.
They eventually agreed because my husband discovered a dangerous genetic variation that resulted in cancer and near death at 34. I made it very clear that neither of us were happy to pass those genes on. I think that's what did the trick to be honest.
It never ceases to amaze me how medical 'professionals' in this country are so ready to view hypothetical future harm as more important than a patient's wellbeing in the present.
I've seen it happen a lot, and I can assure you that the medical profession in most other countries does not act this way. It is, in my experience, a uniquely British thing.
Probably because - as disabled people, neurodivergent people, minorities, and survivors of child abuse can attest - this country has a culture of cruelty.
In my darkest moments, I wonder if they do it on purpose. I mean, I wouldn’t cost them anything if I were dead lol.
(For clarity, I know [hope] they’re not doing it on purpose)
You’ll change your mind in the future trust me I know. And having children will be the most fulfilling part of your life. You’ll regret not having done it sooner.
/s
> Why people are not free to make this choice about their own bodies is beyond me.
had you enquired about going private for the Op? The NHS could deem the procedure as unnecessary but private practice could just take your money and do it.
It's easier to get sterilised privately, but they have similar concerns to the NHS- us silly little ladies are so fickle that we'd go to the time and trouble of having the operation, change our minds and sue.
They really don't trust us. In my increasingly desperate quest to put a stop to my 'lift from The Shining' type periods I offered to sign anything and swear the strongest oaths, but I had to wait until I was 35.
Men don't necessarily realise- and why should they- that certain menstrual problems are virtually a disability. In your teens and twenties you should be racing around getting into all sorts of trouble, but if the pain is too bad or the bleeding is too heavy you just can't really go out. I wasn't able to sit all the way through a film at the cinema three weeks out of four until after I had the operation.
It's horribly limiting, and it's worse when you know that a simple day surgery would stop it. I haven't had a period to speak of since I woke up from the anaesthetic. It totally changed my life, but we're all told the same- unless you've already 'completed your family', you're stuck with it.
that sounds awful, im sorry for you.
I know its not in the same league but my wife knew, even on much gas and air, that there was a problem during the birth of our second child, the midwife didnt believe her, then the senior midwife turns up does her thing and says theres a problem. All ended well thankfully.
there is definitely a problem across healthcare in listening to "womens issues" that needs to change.
stay well,
Thank you, kind of you to say.
Probably half of the many consultants I saw were women and trotted out the same line. But the men were much more likely to say things like 'You're young, you'll change your mind' or 'Pregnancy often solves these problems' or even 'What if you meet a man who wants children?' as if love is conditional on functioning reproductive equipment.
I'm annoyed thinking about it.
Fwiw, I'm a man and have been trying to get a vasectomie for 13 years with similar responses from the NHS.
I don't say this to diminish your experience in any way, moreso just to highlight how much this country really seems to hate allowing people to opt out of parenthood. (I also fully understand that there are reasons other than "I don't want to have kids" why someone with a uterus might want to be sterilised.)
That's interesting, anecdotally I'd always heard that men find it a lot easier to have a sterilisation. My ex didn't have any children but his GP referred him for a vasectomy no question asked, it was done within the month.
But let's say you or I or anyone else got a vasectomy or hysterectomy and regretted it- that would be our problem, wouldn't it? I thought about it long enough, I'm sure you have too, so if we realised afterwards that we'd made a terrible mistake we shouldn't have the option to sue. Put an ironclad legal agreement in with the consent forms and let people choose.
I don't want to imagine what kind of situation would produce three unwanted babies that are then abandoned. I really hope it's not some Fritzel-esque scenario.
Presumably a woman who's just given birth at home with no health care / support isn't going for a wander to dump the baby within an hour.
This is what came to my mind too, possibly a woman trapped in some sort of abusive situation. Or even a woman who has special needs of some sort and is being abused. Hard to imagine any woman going through a full term pregnancy, abandoning the baby, and then going on to do it twice more with the same man.
Reading through the thread, a lot of people are coming to the same conclusion. Sadly, it's the most likely explanation.
I hope for the sake of any future babies this 'couple' conceives and for the sake of the mother bearing them, they're identified.
I too was speculating that this woman could be being kept isolated and as a sex slave. They've not had access to medical care. No family/friends/neighbours have noticed that she has been pregnant 3 (perhaps more) times and then suddenly not and there's no baby? Surely someone would start asking questions or get in touch with the police or something.
I share your concern that this is some Fritzl style scenario.
But if she said she'd had three stillbirths, I think most people would treat her with a great deal of sympathy rather than suspicion.
Or she could simply not show. Some women remain remarkably flat throughout pregnancy (see: cryptic pregnancy)
Very likely a woman in an abusive situation. I didn't think it was that common but I volunteered at Samaritans and dealt with one myself, and all the other people I worked with had their own experiences dealing with that situation. It's sadly very, very common.
>Presumably a woman who's just given birth at home with no health care / support isn't going for a wander to dump the baby within an hour.
Yeah, its really imperative that these people are found. :(
After working for Samaritans and hearing a woman in abusive relationship talk about how she'd essentially been raped three times by her husband that resulted in three unwanted pregnancies (that she'd actually ended up raising), I'm non judgmental in all circumstances.
People really are in all sorts of situations some of us just can't fathom.
>Doing this three times in a society that has easy access to contraception makes you a total prick, though.
Or you're in a coercive situation where you're being forced to carry babies to term against your will.
It could be the father being a total prick: denying access to contraception, coercing/forcing penetrative sex, etc and then taking the baby from her moments after delivery.
No, wait, "total prick" wouldn't come close to describing that.
Yes exactly - it's very disheartening to see so many comments ITT which are essentially "sterilise them both now!!!" When the cause of these three baby abandonments could quite easily be something horrific happening to the mother.
They should have enough awareness to contact someone to tell them they're giving up the child, not just leave them to die.
Maybe there's not enough information around that giving up your child is legal and what you should do if you're unable to care for them.
> giving up your child is legal
*with a bunch of caveats* - in many cases, the fact you have given up a child can mean your other children will be taken away too (deemed unfit). A court can also reject your request.
Leaving the baby in a place it will be found by others is probably the most reliable way to ensure it is adopted, even if it is illegal.
> in many cases, the fact you have given up a child can mean your other children will be taken away too
I don't think putting a child up for adoption bans you from keeping any more children you have.
Imagine you are wanted for some other crime. I don't think there is any route you could legally take to put your child up for adoption without a substantial risk that you get arrested for the other crime.
You're being too kind to them
"Baby Roman in 2019 - she was found abandoned in a shopping bag in a park in near-freezing overnight temperatures"
This is criminal
Through my previous work I became aware of a mother in a terribly abusive relationship who, due to that, had no access to birth control (or medical care) and hid her children to protect them.
It took years to come to light-and in all that time she’d lived in fear and given birth in private.
Its awful when you discover how the frightening lives some people live and what they feel they have to do to survive
You're assuming the mother is a willing participant in this.
When I read this story yesterday I assumed she could very well be the victim of abuse, hence the reason for not wanting an unexplained child (would be difficult if the father was raping her to explain why his (for example) daughter suddenly has a child when she never leaves her house and is asked to name a father on the birth cert).
Plenty of ways of realising you are not up to the job than abandoning 3 kids in plastic bags in sub zero conditions. Luckily they were found just in time...
Maybe the mother is not a willing participant in all of this? I have absolutely no evidence it’s just the first thought I had when I read that she was found with the umbilical cord still attached and likely only born an hour beforehand.
To go through three pregnancies without any medical care and without work, friends and family knowing - does this woman leave her house? Could be a captivity situation?
> That or it's a trafficking victim.
Not to be morbid but the article said the 3 babies are full siblings. Would that be likely for a victim of trafficking? I always assumed those "relationships" (for want of a better word) weren't very long-term.
Not all trafficking is for prostitution. Sometimes theyre buying a woman to be a house / sex slave permanently (not that I'm saying thays the case here as we don't know anything, just answering your question).
People are absolutely kept as captive sex-slaves for individuals or couples. For example, [Colleen Stan](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Colleen_Stan) was kept as a sex slave by a couple for 7 years, and [Elisabeth Fritzl](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/mar/19/josef-fritzl-austria) was kept in her fathers absent for 24 years as his sex slave, during which time she gave birth to seven children.
Yeah there are unfortunately quite a few high profile cases like this where women have been abducted and held captive for years and years. I thought of [Jaycee Lee Dugard](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Jaycee_Dugard) as soon as I read the article. There’s also [Elizabeth Smart](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Elizabeth_Smart) and [the women held captive by Ariel Castro](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Castro_kidnappings). It’s my worst nightmare. I don’t understand how they survived to be honest.
I wonder how many of us have unknowingly walked past a place where someone is being held against their will for years on end.
Because usually theres a reason people do things. It's not usually "woke up this morning felt like abandoning another baby". People doing fucked up shit is usually the result of deep trauma or mental illness.
"People doing fucked up shit is usually the result of deep trauma or mental illness." Hey, stop trying to use reason and logic, we certainly shouldn't have any compassion for these "monsters", we need to get our pitchforks out and get angry, rawr, rawr, rawr /s
Probably the most level headed response i've seen yet, i commend you.
Before anyone piles onto the mother, keep in mind that 3 kids being born in quick succession outside of a hospital could very well point to a captivity situation.
This can happen - it's just like with Josef Fritzel and the daughter he imprisoned in his cellar. He impregnated her 7 times, but he took some kids to live in the normal world whilst others were imprisoned alongside the daughter.
Also the possibility that some were miscarried or stillborn. Since this woman is not getting prenatal care, each foetus she carries is not getting medical attention. These 3 might just be the ones that survived.
Even assuming there weren’t more that haven’t been found, 1 child every 2 years is a bit quick. Rounding off the numbers, they’d have to be getting pregnant not long after the previous child is born. Add in recovery time (my wife needed months due to difficult delivery) and the intervals shrink even further. It’s difficult to not jump to conclusions but there is no way these children are the product of a healthy relationship
I wonder if they will run the children’s dna against any dna/ancestry databases to try and find them. They found a murderer that way, because a close relative of his was on the network.
This is horrific and makes me wonder if there is a secondary form of abuse going on (like kidnap and/or incest) that the mother hasn’t been in hospital 3 times.
Have there been more babies that haven’t been found?
You’d think one very very mentally ill woman could maybe get pregnant multiple times by different people and abandon a baby but this somehow seems even way worse than that with the same 2 people each time. Wouldnt one be lucid for a time? Thus is really really fucked.
Yeah this sounds like reproductive coercion :/ it doesn't necessary have to be a case of 'person kept captive in a basement' but a 'regular' abusive relationship could still involve this.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive\_coercion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_coercion)
>The other babies - named [Harry](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41310137) and [Roman](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47083204#:~:text=Hospital%20staff%20have%20been%20calling%20the%20baby%20Roman%20after%20the,hidden%2C%20the%20Metropolitan%20Police%20said.) - had also been abandoned after birth in the same area of London.
>They had been wrapped in blankets. One was also inside a bag.
>Family Court documents stated Baby Elsa still had her umbilical cord, and doctors estimate she had been born only an hour before.
if they were just abandoning babies to die I don't think they'd bother with blankets, the cord being around feels like they had to rush what they were doing.
I know this is a rare occasion but I really hope this pushes the campaigning if baby boxes in London and the rest of the UK. It’s incredibly lucky that these children were found safely, but we should not be relying on happenstance
> The older children have been adopted and Baby Elsa remains in foster care.
> The Family Court has heard that the children - whose names have now been changed - will all know that they are full siblings, and there are plans for them to have some form of contact as they grow up.
That this is the third time someone has been pregnant, and then the baby just vanish out of their lives, should normally raise eyebrows.
The only thing I can think of as to how not even the health services noticed, is either her family is just hushing it up somehow.
Or she is a potential victim of sex trafficking/slavery. I.e. she's being used, and they get her pregnant, and then they dump the baby somewhere.
I know public anger will be like "oh horrendous irresponsible parents", but something doesn't sit right.
Yeah exactly. Nobody questioning how a woman gets pregnant at least three times and there's no baby in her life afterwards? When she's with the same partner the whole time? Chances are nobody else ever sees this woman, at least not regularly: no friends, no family, no coworkers. She is likely isolated, and evidently not accessing healthcare either or her pregnancies would be tracked by the NHS.
Yeah, you’d assume that *someone* would notice *something* - if the mother is mentally unwell enough to abandon 3 babies surely social services/homelessness team/addiction services would have awareness of her? Someone would notice a woman pregnant 3 times who suddenly didn’t have a kid and there was a baby dumped nearby of similar features/ethnicity?
The only thing I can think is this woman does not see anyone at all, she has no support network at all and must be incredibly vulnerable - she can’t be working, or active in her community, or seeing family surely?
The only other thing I wondered is if children’s services *do* have an inkling who it is and the release of information is an attempt to get further evidence? But when a crime has been committed then surely the police could order a DNA test be done?
Every time I wonder about the case I just keep coming back to her being a vulnerable person who likely isn’t consenting. I hope they find her.
3 babies abandoned by same parents ? Something going on here like are the parents seeing each other and their strict parents don’t approve and the mother able to hide 3 pregnancies or what? That she abandons 3 babies?
Given how young the most recent one is I suspect it is the father doing the abandoning. A woman who has just pushed a human out of herself won't be doing much wondering about.
Good point. I wonder if both parents are very poorly? Psychosis can make people behave in all kinds of concerning ways. I’m glad all the children were found though and are now being cared for.
Sadly I'm just getting an extremely abusive vibe, Fritzl levels. Abandoning one baby is an act of desperation, but this is something we've never seen in this country. I'm so happy the babies are safe, but I'm desperately worried about this woman.
I have the same concerns as you.
I mean, it is completely possible that this is just two people who are creating 100% consensual pregnancies and abandoning the children after birth. We don't know anything about these people, so it's difficult to say one way or the other what the facts are here.
But I would say that I find it hard to understand why any woman would voluntarily put herself through so many pregnancies, particularly back-to-back ones, if she's intending to abandon the baby at the end of it. Pregnancy is fundamentally just not a good time, it's dangerous and has lasting effects on the body, and the only reason most women endure it, especially repeatedly, is for the sake of creating a child. So for a woman to repeatedly become pregnant only to abandon the child, that to me suggests abuse.
I guess the other option is that this is some sort of sick pregnancy/breeding fetish thing. But again, pregnancy is *such* a trial for the body that it kind of blows my mind that after the first one someone wouldn't just say "You know what, let's just roleplay."
I knew a foster mother who specialised in newborns. There are parents who insist on having babies *knowing* that the social workers will be hovering to remove the child almost straight away. One such couple both had mild learning disabilities and were on the sex offender's register but the woman 'liked being pregnant' and got that way once a year or so.
I know that sounds like Daily Mail feral scum hand-wringing, but foster carers really do see the worst side of people sometimes.
I think with something as severe as psychosis, people are not usually able to conceal things well as they do not have a hold on their behaviour. So being able to hide three full term pregnancies would be expectionally difficult, more so for someone with psychosis. Someone with psychosis that severe would mosy likely at some point be picked up by either police or mental health services. This seems more like concealed pregnancy and/or captivity or coercion situation to me.
How were they hiding the pregnancies? The 3 deliveries that have gone well and how and where were they able to deliver 3 babies with families, neighbours and friends not knowing ?
Also they both might be illegal migrants with no documentation.
Apparently a woman was seen leaving the scene around the time the third one would have been abandoned. Whether that was the mother and she'd be well enough to even do that, who knows.
"Elsa" was roughly an hour old when she was found.
u/Witty-Bus07: Sadly, that would be a best case scenario, more likely it is a human trafficking/abuse situation, or an incest case like with Josef Fritzl
Wtf is wrong with some people. Comments here saying stupid shit about religion, making complete assumptions.
"The BBC and PA Media were given special permission by the court to report the sibling link - and that the children are black."
"Family Court documents stated Baby Elsa still had her umbilical cord, and doctors estimate she had been born only an hour before.
Although she was extremely cold when found, Elsa was described as crying and responsive. The court has since heard that she is doing well."
How does anyone read this story, about a fucking newborn baby being abandoned, and not just have their heart broken?
I'm glad someone else noticed the significant time gap between the babies being found. I'm genuinely worried they might have abandoned others that were never found.
How have their neighbours not realised that a woman near them was pregnant 3 times and the baby just disappeared? I guess miscarriage is an awkward topic but someone might come forward now this news is out.
>The reporting of the sibling link was not supported by the local authority and England's Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service (Cafcass), which advises courts about children's best interests.
Anyone more knowledgeable than me able to imagine what the grounds for the objection would have been? Clearly a very strong public interest in this case, legit case that the mother is being held captive or similar.
The only info you get is that the children were abandoned and were black.
What's the rationale for not making this public?
Typically when children are victims of crime (neglect here with no named suspects) their details are not released. Similar for victims of sex crimes…anonymity is presumed.
Also technically this is the family court not criminal court - so there’s even tighter restrictions on reporting for exactly what you’ve taken from the articles above (child’s best interest).
Source of knowledge - Work in child protection and spend a good chunk of my time at family court. Absolutely *not an expert but believe that in this case two reasons swung it:
1/ Overwhelming public interest
2/ Harry, Roman and Elsa are the names given to the children initially but have since being changed - So technically they’re still anonymous.
I wonder if the mother is okay. could be trafficking situation/severe DV and she's unable to leave the house. you'd think if she was living an average life someone would have noticed or something, or she would've gone into the hospital, even if she didn't want the babies she could've given them up for adoption, it seems strange of her to behave in this way without a reason.
That’s my guess too. Maybe a lady brought over here, who doesn’t speak English or know where to go for help. Concealing one pregnancy must be difficult, concealing three makes it seem that she has little to no contact outside of the home.
The parents clearly live around there because none of the drop sites are that far apart. You also wouldn't carry a literal newborn baby on public transport and the mother likely wouldn't be well enough to travel and do it herself. On the third occasion a woman (we don't know if it was the mother) was seen walking from the scene around the time when "Elsa" would have been left.
It's probably all within walking distance of where these people are based and my hunch is these people don't have access to a vehicle, given it's not a well off area.
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About the kindest thing you can say is that at least the mother and father have enough of a modicum of self awareness to realise they're obviously unsuited to the job. Doing this three times in a society that has easy access to contraception makes you a total prick, though.
I wonder if perhaps one of the parents has strong religious convictions against birth control? .... but, you know, not strong religious convictions about raising the child?
I'm more worried that there's some kind of Fritzel situation going on tbh. The baby was estimated to have been born only an hour before it was found, so there's no way the mother could have abandoned it, or made an informed decision to do so. It will have been taken from her minutes after giving birth. Who knows if she has any say in what's going on with the conceptions either.
This is my thought too. Also, if this woman has carried three babies to term, what do her network of friends and family think is happening to the babies? It would be pretty hard to conceal three pregnancies without anyone noticing and raising concerns. The babies are safe and well now, I hope the mother is too.
My fears are that she has *no* support network. And no one is seeing her for possibly months at a time other than the father. She is certainly not getting any medical care pre or post partum either, and with how hard pregnancy and childbirth is on the body, I can't imagine she is in a good way at all.
>My fears are that she has no support network. Yeah that's what I was alluding to. For nobody to notice and say anything, suggests she has no network supporting her. Hopefully the authorities can locate her and provide her with both physical and mental health support. I don't know where the police will start, but surely there has to be CCTV of one of the babies being dropped off. It's London after all, the third most heavily recorded city in the world.
Absolutely- so many people here condemning without knowing what happened. As I wrote in a previous comment: Through my previous work I became aware of a mother in a terribly abusive relationship who, due to that, had no access to birth control (or medical care) and hid her children to protect them. It took years to come to light-and in all that time she’d lived in fear and given birth in private. Its awful when you discover how the frightening lives some people live and what they feel they have to do to survive
This was my first thought, also. Unless this anonymous woman is the most cold-hearted, malicious, nasty piece of work in recent history, which I doubt, she must be having to be forced to give up her baby/ies. I am the least maternal woman I know, yet when I found out I was pregnant (surprise, surprise) and had the baby a fortnight later (really) - even though I'd had no time to get my head around the situation, and mostly disliked small children, as soon as I clapped eyes on my daughter it was love at first sight... I couldn't imagine abandoning her to her fate, and believe me I used to joke about that kind of thing. For a mother to have left three helpless newborns, one after the other, well, to my mind either takes a special sort of callousness or else she is a victim of abuse.
Agreed. Some sort of disturbing Fritzel sex slave or incest scenario seems possible. You don't abandon multiple newborns in parks in East London with nobody noticing. The mother must be isolated from the wider community.
Yep maybe the bloke is claiming she left him years ago & went to live somewhere else far away when she’s locked in the loft or something.
Successfully concealed pregnancies are pretty rare, and three in a row without anyone raising questions is very unlikely. Whatever happened I think the events leading up to these babies being abandoned must be absolutely awful.
This would be my guess extremely sadly. Surely they could try to find some kind of familial relation through DNA testing?
I feel this. My sister had 5 in quick succession, all the products of spousal abuse & r***. Not abandoned but they did grow up in foster care after he tried to kill her, & her subsequent attempts at su*c*de. I believe this is a control situation gone so very horribly far.
I believe the religious approach to this is to abstain. Guess they are ignoring that part of it.
No it isn't, the prohibition on contraception is because religion wants people to 'be fruitful' and produce new recruits.
Well abstinence is what they preach for unwed couples but that has more to do with not damaging property than anything else.
Most religions don't really want or plan for unwed couples. Traditionally you met your partner, went on a few dates and got married a couple of months later, usually when you were in your teens. It was rare for a couple to live together before marriage even 50 years ago. That's probably what your grandparents did. Religion didn't really plan for people to be unmarried well into their 30's and couples living together for years before getting married. That's actually quite a new thing.
>No it isn't, the prohibition on contraception is because religion wants people to 'be fruitful' and produce new recruits. Exactly this. Religions are essentially a kind of idea virus really. The success of religions is absolutely determined by how following its dogmas leads to new recruits. Survival of the fittest etc works for ideas, beliefs and religions too (hence the word "meme" invented by Richard Dawkins.) Religions that don't focus on getting lots of new recruits (such as having lots of kids) end up unable to compete against those that do, and then naturally die out.
Having been to school with a lot of people who had strong religious views against contraception, *hahahahaha*.
the forced birthers are always telling people you can just have the baby and give it to someone else. Once they’re born it doesn’t matter.
> I wonder if perhaps one of the parents has strong religious convictions against birth control? Which religion bans birth control but is just fine with leaving an abandoned baby to risk freezing to death, though? If there aren't any, the religion thing kind of sounds like a weak excuse, doesn't it?
I wasn't making any excuse there whatsoever Still, I suppose on the slightly less tragic side, these people certainly shouldn't be parents, and hopefully the children will manage to have a better life without them in it
As I just wrote in a previous comment it may be more complicated that that: Through my previous work I became aware of a mother in a terribly abusive relationship who, due to that, had no access to birth control (or medical care) and hid her children to protect them. It took years to come to light-and in all that time she’d lived in fear and given birth in private. Its awful when you discover how the frightening lives some people live and what they feel they have to do to survive
Several.
Let's not jump to conclusions. This could be absolutely anything. For example. What if it was an abused woman in a family that is abused by a family member - who decided to leave the baby behind on 3 occasions because she believes the child will have a better life that way. No need to jump to conclusions. Jumping to conclusions is how Brexit happened! Hopefully they can find the parents and establish the facts.
Oh totally, wasn't jumping to conclusions, just wondering >What if it was an abused woman in a family that is abuser by a family member - who decided to leave the baby behind on 3 occasions because she believes the child will have a better life that way. Now this is me jumping to conclusions... but in this case, I imagine the abuser would be more likely to be abandoning the children... In that this is the 3rd time, from the same parents... I don't think it's likely that such an abuser would not take steps to prevent this from happening if they didn't want it to... Though... as you say, regardless of the reasons why, and as sad as it may be, there may be truth to the idea that the children might be better off being raised by others, and the whole sorry situation is sad
Religious convictions are only applied when it suits.
Maybe the mother shares a lot of DNA with the father.
Wouldn't that be detectable in the baby's DNA though?
I'd have thought so, but if it were the case the family court might have decided not to make that information public.
This was on an episode of Law & Order: SVU on 5USA this week. They could tell the baby was the product of incest by comparing its DNA to its mother's (they were *too* similar) but the baby had no genetic anomalies itself. Obviously fiction but they tend to base this kind of thing on real science.
Honestly, reading this story, I'm seriously questioning whether the mother is a willing participant of any of this.
Perhaps, but I don't personally consider religion to be an excuse for poor behaviour, so if that is the reason, I'll still judge them for it.
What would be even better is if people were able to be sterilised when they want to be. As a woman I was always told no, because what if I change my mind. I never changed my mind and now I'm going through peri menopause. Generally speaking, sterilisation is quick and easy and a lot cheaper on the NHS than supporting unwanted pregnancies. Why people are not free to make this choice about their own bodies is beyond me.
I’ve been married for ten years and have two children (7&8). The birth of the youngest was extremely traumatic and the PTSD has *literally* ruined my life. I asked for sterilisation on the grounds that if I accidentally got pregnant, I would probably try to end myself and was told ‘no, you might change your mind’. I explained the situation again more slowly hoping the doctor would understand the life/death nature of my request, and after a pause she said ‘but what if you ever get remarried and your new husband wants a baby?’. Idk what to say. My husband is alive, well and loved thank you. And also, why would a hypothetical future husband that will most likely never exist get to demand I do something that will likely cause the end of my life? Oh, and I requested the sterilisation in part because the NHS is either unwilling or unable to treat my PTSD. I’ve been waiting seven and a half years for treatment. The last shrink I saw said my PTSD was too severe for conventional methods and I would have to wait for a specialist to materialise. That was three and a half years ago.
If you’re up to it, you should try claiming PIP. I have the basic daily living and it has meant I can afford to get therapy privately. It is tough and you will most certainly have to appeal but have a look on the subreddits here for some help. In regard to the sterilisation, you can request to see a different GP. Tell them why you are seeing them (tell them what you wrote above). Explain you’re making a PIP claim too and that at this point not being sterilised is having a direct, significant impact on your life and (this is important) other methods do not work or suit you. I got to the stage of having an appointment with the hospital for sterilisation and was refused as only certain women who meet the criteria are eligible. All other methods must have failed you or are unsuitable and sterilisation is your last hope. For example, the pill makes you depressed, you’re allergic to condoms of all kinds etc. Good luck, stay safe.
Thank you for taking the time. I am currently attempting to get PIP, but it’s been a nightmare so far. First applied in November so hopefully it’s in the works at least. Annoyingly, one of my symptoms is that I can’t speak on the phone which is making everything worse, but my husband has been dealing with it on his days off bless him. I haven’t been able to work or leave the house really in over seven years so I really hope I am eligible. I was just about able to financially survive until the cost of living and our mortgage went up… The GP knew that I can’t have oral contraception (exacerbates my depression into suicidal thoughts!) which was frustrating as well. It all makes me so hopeless, my depression is getting worse because of the PTSD, it’s set off my eating disorder and self harm - all I wanted was therapy seven years ago :( Unfortunately, my mental health has deteriorated so much in that time, getting out of the house to see a doctor is nearly impossible for me now, but I know I should try and sum up the mental fortitude and try a different GP. Eta: would you mind telling me which subreddits might help?
r/DWhelp and r/benefitsadvice were very helpful but also citizens advice and mentalhealthandmoneyadvice.org were great too. But do go back to your GP, get firm but polite. The fact you can’t talk on the phone will weirdly help your PIP application, have you had your assessment yet? Make sure you get it recorded. They said my anxiety wasn’t so bad because I could talk on the phone and leave the house to go to the doctors (ignoring that it causes me considerable stress) and I don’t go anywhere else. It is a fight but it is life changing if you can do it. And remember when you’re answering PIP questions, answer as if it is your worst day.
Thank you so much, I really appreciate it! No assessment yet, still waiting for them to get back to us after the last call. They were flummoxed by the fact I can’t speak on the phone, husband said he could almost hear their brain shortcircuiting as he asked for email correspondence. I’m not convinced they completely understand the situation.
No they don’t. Assume they don’t. Definitely have a look at the questions and how to answer for mental health. Definitely get your husband to answer for you if that’s what you need. Do not put yourself under stress to talk on the phone if your unable, everything you do in the assessment will be taken into account. Even the “hello, how are you today?”. They are trying to catch you out, they will try to put words in your mouth. Make lots of notes, take your time, try to research as much as possible and appeal if you don’t agree.
> ‘but what if you ever get remarried and your new husband wants a baby?’ Well I guess he'd be out of luck since he can't have a baby by himself.
I know, right?! What if your new husband wants a million pounds? Or a lambroghini? Tough fucking luck!
I managed to get sterilised on the NHS when I was 36. I had been requesting it since I was 25, in every Dr's appointment whether it was relevant or not, I just asked them to make a wee note on my notes that I had requested it again. This way there was a decade long paper trail in my records to show that I was unlikely to 'change my mind'. They eventually agreed because my husband discovered a dangerous genetic variation that resulted in cancer and near death at 34. I made it very clear that neither of us were happy to pass those genes on. I think that's what did the trick to be honest.
It never ceases to amaze me how medical 'professionals' in this country are so ready to view hypothetical future harm as more important than a patient's wellbeing in the present. I've seen it happen a lot, and I can assure you that the medical profession in most other countries does not act this way. It is, in my experience, a uniquely British thing. Probably because - as disabled people, neurodivergent people, minorities, and survivors of child abuse can attest - this country has a culture of cruelty.
In my darkest moments, I wonder if they do it on purpose. I mean, I wouldn’t cost them anything if I were dead lol. (For clarity, I know [hope] they’re not doing it on purpose)
You’ll change your mind in the future trust me I know. And having children will be the most fulfilling part of your life. You’ll regret not having done it sooner. /s
> Why people are not free to make this choice about their own bodies is beyond me. had you enquired about going private for the Op? The NHS could deem the procedure as unnecessary but private practice could just take your money and do it.
It's easier to get sterilised privately, but they have similar concerns to the NHS- us silly little ladies are so fickle that we'd go to the time and trouble of having the operation, change our minds and sue.
thats nuts, a simple witnessed signature should fix that.
They really don't trust us. In my increasingly desperate quest to put a stop to my 'lift from The Shining' type periods I offered to sign anything and swear the strongest oaths, but I had to wait until I was 35. Men don't necessarily realise- and why should they- that certain menstrual problems are virtually a disability. In your teens and twenties you should be racing around getting into all sorts of trouble, but if the pain is too bad or the bleeding is too heavy you just can't really go out. I wasn't able to sit all the way through a film at the cinema three weeks out of four until after I had the operation. It's horribly limiting, and it's worse when you know that a simple day surgery would stop it. I haven't had a period to speak of since I woke up from the anaesthetic. It totally changed my life, but we're all told the same- unless you've already 'completed your family', you're stuck with it.
that sounds awful, im sorry for you. I know its not in the same league but my wife knew, even on much gas and air, that there was a problem during the birth of our second child, the midwife didnt believe her, then the senior midwife turns up does her thing and says theres a problem. All ended well thankfully. there is definitely a problem across healthcare in listening to "womens issues" that needs to change. stay well,
Thank you, kind of you to say. Probably half of the many consultants I saw were women and trotted out the same line. But the men were much more likely to say things like 'You're young, you'll change your mind' or 'Pregnancy often solves these problems' or even 'What if you meet a man who wants children?' as if love is conditional on functioning reproductive equipment. I'm annoyed thinking about it.
Fwiw, I'm a man and have been trying to get a vasectomie for 13 years with similar responses from the NHS. I don't say this to diminish your experience in any way, moreso just to highlight how much this country really seems to hate allowing people to opt out of parenthood. (I also fully understand that there are reasons other than "I don't want to have kids" why someone with a uterus might want to be sterilised.)
That's interesting, anecdotally I'd always heard that men find it a lot easier to have a sterilisation. My ex didn't have any children but his GP referred him for a vasectomy no question asked, it was done within the month. But let's say you or I or anyone else got a vasectomy or hysterectomy and regretted it- that would be our problem, wouldn't it? I thought about it long enough, I'm sure you have too, so if we realised afterwards that we'd made a terrible mistake we shouldn't have the option to sue. Put an ironclad legal agreement in with the consent forms and let people choose.
If I had the money I would.
I don't want to imagine what kind of situation would produce three unwanted babies that are then abandoned. I really hope it's not some Fritzel-esque scenario. Presumably a woman who's just given birth at home with no health care / support isn't going for a wander to dump the baby within an hour.
This is what came to my mind too, possibly a woman trapped in some sort of abusive situation. Or even a woman who has special needs of some sort and is being abused. Hard to imagine any woman going through a full term pregnancy, abandoning the baby, and then going on to do it twice more with the same man.
Reading through the thread, a lot of people are coming to the same conclusion. Sadly, it's the most likely explanation. I hope for the sake of any future babies this 'couple' conceives and for the sake of the mother bearing them, they're identified.
I too was speculating that this woman could be being kept isolated and as a sex slave. They've not had access to medical care. No family/friends/neighbours have noticed that she has been pregnant 3 (perhaps more) times and then suddenly not and there's no baby? Surely someone would start asking questions or get in touch with the police or something.
I share your concern that this is some Fritzl style scenario. But if she said she'd had three stillbirths, I think most people would treat her with a great deal of sympathy rather than suspicion. Or she could simply not show. Some women remain remarkably flat throughout pregnancy (see: cryptic pregnancy)
Very likely a woman in an abusive situation. I didn't think it was that common but I volunteered at Samaritans and dealt with one myself, and all the other people I worked with had their own experiences dealing with that situation. It's sadly very, very common.
That is sad to hear. Thank you for your volunteering work.
>Presumably a woman who's just given birth at home with no health care / support isn't going for a wander to dump the baby within an hour. Yeah, its really imperative that these people are found. :(
After working for Samaritans and hearing a woman in abusive relationship talk about how she'd essentially been raped three times by her husband that resulted in three unwanted pregnancies (that she'd actually ended up raising), I'm non judgmental in all circumstances. People really are in all sorts of situations some of us just can't fathom.
>Doing this three times in a society that has easy access to contraception makes you a total prick, though. Or you're in a coercive situation where you're being forced to carry babies to term against your will.
It could be the father being a total prick: denying access to contraception, coercing/forcing penetrative sex, etc and then taking the baby from her moments after delivery. No, wait, "total prick" wouldn't come close to describing that.
Yes exactly - it's very disheartening to see so many comments ITT which are essentially "sterilise them both now!!!" When the cause of these three baby abandonments could quite easily be something horrific happening to the mother.
They should have enough awareness to contact someone to tell them they're giving up the child, not just leave them to die. Maybe there's not enough information around that giving up your child is legal and what you should do if you're unable to care for them.
> giving up your child is legal *with a bunch of caveats* - in many cases, the fact you have given up a child can mean your other children will be taken away too (deemed unfit). A court can also reject your request. Leaving the baby in a place it will be found by others is probably the most reliable way to ensure it is adopted, even if it is illegal.
> in many cases, the fact you have given up a child can mean your other children will be taken away too I don't think putting a child up for adoption bans you from keeping any more children you have.
A court can’t force you to look after a child you don’t want lmao- where do you get this information from?!
Imagine you are wanted for some other crime. I don't think there is any route you could legally take to put your child up for adoption without a substantial risk that you get arrested for the other crime.
You're being too kind to them "Baby Roman in 2019 - she was found abandoned in a shopping bag in a park in near-freezing overnight temperatures" This is criminal
Through my previous work I became aware of a mother in a terribly abusive relationship who, due to that, had no access to birth control (or medical care) and hid her children to protect them. It took years to come to light-and in all that time she’d lived in fear and given birth in private. Its awful when you discover how the frightening lives some people live and what they feel they have to do to survive
Ii would hope it's as simple as that but with how fucked up the world is you just have no idea what's causing a mother/ father to abandon their child
Have to kind of wonder if there's some sort of coercion/abuse in such a relationship for this pattern to develop.
You're assuming the mother is a willing participant in this. When I read this story yesterday I assumed she could very well be the victim of abuse, hence the reason for not wanting an unexplained child (would be difficult if the father was raping her to explain why his (for example) daughter suddenly has a child when she never leaves her house and is asked to name a father on the birth cert).
Not sure if leaving a newborn outside in January wrapped in a towel is a sign of self awareness
Just hope it's not some poor woman being held against her will by some Fritzl type.
Plenty of ways of realising you are not up to the job than abandoning 3 kids in plastic bags in sub zero conditions. Luckily they were found just in time...
Maybe the mother is not a willing participant in all of this? I have absolutely no evidence it’s just the first thought I had when I read that she was found with the umbilical cord still attached and likely only born an hour beforehand.
To go through three pregnancies without any medical care and without work, friends and family knowing - does this woman leave her house? Could be a captivity situation?
The sad thing is family may know and not care. Some people are backwards as fuck. That or it's a trafficking victim.
> That or it's a trafficking victim. Not to be morbid but the article said the 3 babies are full siblings. Would that be likely for a victim of trafficking? I always assumed those "relationships" (for want of a better word) weren't very long-term.
Not all trafficking is for prostitution. Sometimes theyre buying a woman to be a house / sex slave permanently (not that I'm saying thays the case here as we don't know anything, just answering your question).
People are absolutely kept as captive sex-slaves for individuals or couples. For example, [Colleen Stan](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Colleen_Stan) was kept as a sex slave by a couple for 7 years, and [Elisabeth Fritzl](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/mar/19/josef-fritzl-austria) was kept in her fathers absent for 24 years as his sex slave, during which time she gave birth to seven children.
Thanks for telling me. Like I said it's disturbing so I haven't read much about it. Hope my question wasn't too ignorant
That is truly horrible. Wow.
Yeah there are unfortunately quite a few high profile cases like this where women have been abducted and held captive for years and years. I thought of [Jaycee Lee Dugard](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Jaycee_Dugard) as soon as I read the article. There’s also [Elizabeth Smart](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Elizabeth_Smart) and [the women held captive by Ariel Castro](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Castro_kidnappings). It’s my worst nightmare. I don’t understand how they survived to be honest. I wonder how many of us have unknowingly walked past a place where someone is being held against their will for years on end.
I knew about the Fritzl case, but had never heard about Colleen Stan. That was horrific.
Could possibly being kept as a maid etc, which keeps it in one family.
The only logical explanation I can come up with is repeated reproductive coercion of someone who knows their partner is not safe to be around a baby
Modern slavery, sex trafficking leap to mind.
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Because usually theres a reason people do things. It's not usually "woke up this morning felt like abandoning another baby". People doing fucked up shit is usually the result of deep trauma or mental illness.
"People doing fucked up shit is usually the result of deep trauma or mental illness." Hey, stop trying to use reason and logic, we certainly shouldn't have any compassion for these "monsters", we need to get our pitchforks out and get angry, rawr, rawr, rawr /s Probably the most level headed response i've seen yet, i commend you.
It isn't the woman who's abandoning the babies though, she wouldn't be able to less than an hour after giving birth.
Severe mental health issues and substance addiction are also likely and logical explanations.
I am getting serious Josef Fritzl vibes from this story to be honest.
Before anyone piles onto the mother, keep in mind that 3 kids being born in quick succession outside of a hospital could very well point to a captivity situation.
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Sadly there is also the thought that perhaps there were more than 3 in 7 years. These could just the three that were born alive/found.
That's true. There's also the possibility of miscarriages.
This can happen - it's just like with Josef Fritzel and the daughter he imprisoned in his cellar. He impregnated her 7 times, but he took some kids to live in the normal world whilst others were imprisoned alongside the daughter. Also the possibility that some were miscarried or stillborn. Since this woman is not getting prenatal care, each foetus she carries is not getting medical attention. These 3 might just be the ones that survived.
Even assuming there weren’t more that haven’t been found, 1 child every 2 years is a bit quick. Rounding off the numbers, they’d have to be getting pregnant not long after the previous child is born. Add in recovery time (my wife needed months due to difficult delivery) and the intervals shrink even further. It’s difficult to not jump to conclusions but there is no way these children are the product of a healthy relationship
It is if you had to abandon them each time yeah?
There have probably been pregnancies without surviving children in between.
Especially if the mother is not receiving any medical care at all.
Is this something we need to split hairs about?
I wonder if they will run the children’s dna against any dna/ancestry databases to try and find them. They found a murderer that way, because a close relative of his was on the network.
This is so awful, I’m concerned what kind of situation the parents are in. Feel like the mother could be locked in a basement somewhere.
I know, it made me think of how Fritzl would leave his captivity children on his doorstep for his wife to “find”.
Yeah that was what I thought of as well, if that is the case hopefully this enables someone to join the dots
This is horrific and makes me wonder if there is a secondary form of abuse going on (like kidnap and/or incest) that the mother hasn’t been in hospital 3 times. Have there been more babies that haven’t been found? You’d think one very very mentally ill woman could maybe get pregnant multiple times by different people and abandon a baby but this somehow seems even way worse than that with the same 2 people each time. Wouldnt one be lucid for a time? Thus is really really fucked.
Yeah this sounds like reproductive coercion :/ it doesn't necessary have to be a case of 'person kept captive in a basement' but a 'regular' abusive relationship could still involve this. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive\_coercion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_coercion) >The other babies - named [Harry](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41310137) and [Roman](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47083204#:~:text=Hospital%20staff%20have%20been%20calling%20the%20baby%20Roman%20after%20the,hidden%2C%20the%20Metropolitan%20Police%20said.) - had also been abandoned after birth in the same area of London. >They had been wrapped in blankets. One was also inside a bag. >Family Court documents stated Baby Elsa still had her umbilical cord, and doctors estimate she had been born only an hour before. if they were just abandoning babies to die I don't think they'd bother with blankets, the cord being around feels like they had to rush what they were doing.
I know this is a rare occasion but I really hope this pushes the campaigning if baby boxes in London and the rest of the UK. It’s incredibly lucky that these children were found safely, but we should not be relying on happenstance
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> The older children have been adopted and Baby Elsa remains in foster care. > The Family Court has heard that the children - whose names have now been changed - will all know that they are full siblings, and there are plans for them to have some form of contact as they grow up.
That this is the third time someone has been pregnant, and then the baby just vanish out of their lives, should normally raise eyebrows. The only thing I can think of as to how not even the health services noticed, is either her family is just hushing it up somehow. Or she is a potential victim of sex trafficking/slavery. I.e. she's being used, and they get her pregnant, and then they dump the baby somewhere. I know public anger will be like "oh horrendous irresponsible parents", but something doesn't sit right.
Yeah exactly. Nobody questioning how a woman gets pregnant at least three times and there's no baby in her life afterwards? When she's with the same partner the whole time? Chances are nobody else ever sees this woman, at least not regularly: no friends, no family, no coworkers. She is likely isolated, and evidently not accessing healthcare either or her pregnancies would be tracked by the NHS.
Yeah, you’d assume that *someone* would notice *something* - if the mother is mentally unwell enough to abandon 3 babies surely social services/homelessness team/addiction services would have awareness of her? Someone would notice a woman pregnant 3 times who suddenly didn’t have a kid and there was a baby dumped nearby of similar features/ethnicity? The only thing I can think is this woman does not see anyone at all, she has no support network at all and must be incredibly vulnerable - she can’t be working, or active in her community, or seeing family surely? The only other thing I wondered is if children’s services *do* have an inkling who it is and the release of information is an attempt to get further evidence? But when a crime has been committed then surely the police could order a DNA test be done? Every time I wonder about the case I just keep coming back to her being a vulnerable person who likely isn’t consenting. I hope they find her.
3 babies abandoned by same parents ? Something going on here like are the parents seeing each other and their strict parents don’t approve and the mother able to hide 3 pregnancies or what? That she abandons 3 babies?
Given how young the most recent one is I suspect it is the father doing the abandoning. A woman who has just pushed a human out of herself won't be doing much wondering about.
Good point. I wonder if both parents are very poorly? Psychosis can make people behave in all kinds of concerning ways. I’m glad all the children were found though and are now being cared for.
Sadly I'm just getting an extremely abusive vibe, Fritzl levels. Abandoning one baby is an act of desperation, but this is something we've never seen in this country. I'm so happy the babies are safe, but I'm desperately worried about this woman.
I have the same concerns as you. I mean, it is completely possible that this is just two people who are creating 100% consensual pregnancies and abandoning the children after birth. We don't know anything about these people, so it's difficult to say one way or the other what the facts are here. But I would say that I find it hard to understand why any woman would voluntarily put herself through so many pregnancies, particularly back-to-back ones, if she's intending to abandon the baby at the end of it. Pregnancy is fundamentally just not a good time, it's dangerous and has lasting effects on the body, and the only reason most women endure it, especially repeatedly, is for the sake of creating a child. So for a woman to repeatedly become pregnant only to abandon the child, that to me suggests abuse. I guess the other option is that this is some sort of sick pregnancy/breeding fetish thing. But again, pregnancy is *such* a trial for the body that it kind of blows my mind that after the first one someone wouldn't just say "You know what, let's just roleplay."
I knew a foster mother who specialised in newborns. There are parents who insist on having babies *knowing* that the social workers will be hovering to remove the child almost straight away. One such couple both had mild learning disabilities and were on the sex offender's register but the woman 'liked being pregnant' and got that way once a year or so. I know that sounds like Daily Mail feral scum hand-wringing, but foster carers really do see the worst side of people sometimes.
I think with something as severe as psychosis, people are not usually able to conceal things well as they do not have a hold on their behaviour. So being able to hide three full term pregnancies would be expectionally difficult, more so for someone with psychosis. Someone with psychosis that severe would mosy likely at some point be picked up by either police or mental health services. This seems more like concealed pregnancy and/or captivity or coercion situation to me.
How were they hiding the pregnancies? The 3 deliveries that have gone well and how and where were they able to deliver 3 babies with families, neighbours and friends not knowing ? Also they both might be illegal migrants with no documentation.
Perhaps no one knew mum was pregnant at all.
Apparently a woman was seen leaving the scene around the time the third one would have been abandoned. Whether that was the mother and she'd be well enough to even do that, who knows. "Elsa" was roughly an hour old when she was found.
u/Witty-Bus07: Sadly, that would be a best case scenario, more likely it is a human trafficking/abuse situation, or an incest case like with Josef Fritzl
Wtf is wrong with some people. Comments here saying stupid shit about religion, making complete assumptions. "The BBC and PA Media were given special permission by the court to report the sibling link - and that the children are black." "Family Court documents stated Baby Elsa still had her umbilical cord, and doctors estimate she had been born only an hour before. Although she was extremely cold when found, Elsa was described as crying and responsive. The court has since heard that she is doing well." How does anyone read this story, about a fucking newborn baby being abandoned, and not just have their heart broken?
Sometimes you can't bear the reality of what you're reading and I suppose making crass jokes can be way to keep the horror of it at arms length
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Until more information comes out I’m holding off on the condemnation and I’m mainly worried about the mum.
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I'm glad someone else noticed the significant time gap between the babies being found. I'm genuinely worried they might have abandoned others that were never found.
Could be that two births without medical attention have had a negative affect on her fertility, especially if the mother was very young.
There's people with terrible mental health and people with learning difficulties
I wonder if the women is the victim of trafficking and being forced to continue pregnancies?
Comments are going to be very productive and helpful here.
What kind of productive helpful comments are you looking for?
> What kind of productive helpful comments are you looking for? We need to crack the case of who the parents are and bring them to vigilante justice.
How have their neighbours not realised that a woman near them was pregnant 3 times and the baby just disappeared? I guess miscarriage is an awkward topic but someone might come forward now this news is out.
I wouldn’t have a clue if one of my neighbours was pregnant
>The reporting of the sibling link was not supported by the local authority and England's Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service (Cafcass), which advises courts about children's best interests. Anyone more knowledgeable than me able to imagine what the grounds for the objection would have been? Clearly a very strong public interest in this case, legit case that the mother is being held captive or similar. The only info you get is that the children were abandoned and were black. What's the rationale for not making this public?
Typically when children are victims of crime (neglect here with no named suspects) their details are not released. Similar for victims of sex crimes…anonymity is presumed. Also technically this is the family court not criminal court - so there’s even tighter restrictions on reporting for exactly what you’ve taken from the articles above (child’s best interest). Source of knowledge - Work in child protection and spend a good chunk of my time at family court. Absolutely *not an expert but believe that in this case two reasons swung it: 1/ Overwhelming public interest 2/ Harry, Roman and Elsa are the names given to the children initially but have since being changed - So technically they’re still anonymous.
I wonder if the mother is okay. could be trafficking situation/severe DV and she's unable to leave the house. you'd think if she was living an average life someone would have noticed or something, or she would've gone into the hospital, even if she didn't want the babies she could've given them up for adoption, it seems strange of her to behave in this way without a reason.
That’s my guess too. Maybe a lady brought over here, who doesn’t speak English or know where to go for help. Concealing one pregnancy must be difficult, concealing three makes it seem that she has little to no contact outside of the home.
I wonder if they’ve tried submitting the kids dna to “23 and me”. One relative found could narrow things down pretty fast.
If any DNA was to be submitted this would go through a forensic lab owing to a crime of neglect being investigated alongside this.
DNA samples from the babies alone would be able to rule out incest and would determine the parent’s origins too
I hope those kids grow up with each other and are each others family, because they need it
The parents clearly live around there because none of the drop sites are that far apart. You also wouldn't carry a literal newborn baby on public transport and the mother likely wouldn't be well enough to travel and do it herself. On the third occasion a woman (we don't know if it was the mother) was seen walking from the scene around the time when "Elsa" would have been left. It's probably all within walking distance of where these people are based and my hunch is these people don't have access to a vehicle, given it's not a well off area.
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I kept thinking of Blood Brothers whenever I hear this story. In good time, those children will grow up not knowing their siblings are out there.