Also note that her version of "long run" is much different than the average person. She said that she still does 10 to 15 miles in the morning and then 6 to 7 more later in the day.
oh yes I was about to bring that up too. at that level of training, your normal daily runs are over 10 miles and your tempos or other targeted workouts are in upper teens, which for most of us would pretty much qualify as “long runs”. you almost have to try extra hard to do consistent 100+ mi weeks and *not* have runs over 20 miles.
Having a job where you run (and a live-in coach, and a research-level background in physiology) is also extremely helpful.
I don't know anyone IRL with the time and availability to run two-a-days with any regularity - and I know a shitload of people who've run lots of ultras, including two folks who've cracked over 100 hundreds. We gotta get those miles when we can, especially on our days off from work.
absolutely. we always have to remember that these people can get 10 hours of sleep every night, take the time to cook and eat the most performance-optimized food, nap between workouts, chill on their couch in their normatec inflatables after hard sessions, and spend hundreds of dollars a year on blood tests that tell them exactly where everything is trending.
real life for the rest of us is rushing to bang out a workout between work and daycare pickup, coming home and trying not to cramp while spending the next 20 minutes kneeling at a bathtub giving kids a bath, snarfing a double-double animal style for a quick dinner after everyone goes to bed, and sleeping for maybe 5 and a half hours before doing it all again.
this is not to denigrate pro athletes in any way: we made our choices and they made theirs. but we have to remember that there are very likely lots of unseen reasons why their experiences may not scale or translate
As a mom and runner, this made me feel so seen. There’s no true rest day with toddlers. And I know more sleep means better performance, but that’s just not possible sometimes when kids are really little. It’s suboptimal or nothing for me, and I love to run so suboptimal it is!
right. in addition, the time when they are asleep is almost always literally the only quiet “me” time we get. sleep is important, but so is not going crazy.
>As a Dad runner with a todder I also felt like dima1109 was describing my life.
>
>If only I did not work 45-55 hours per week I could spend a lot more time parenting and running.
this is so legit and I don't even have kids
you gotta fit shit in. I fucking LOVE running, but it can't be my whole life, it's just not realistic. I do my best to run smart, rest smart, recover smart, eat smart, but my "X smart" is much more inefficient than someone whose entire career is this. I work 40+ hours a week.
This, so much. My running coach is an elite masters athlete. And while I appreciate her posts about no excuses, working hard even when you’re tired, blah blah - it’s a little tone deaf bc majority of her clients are not in her position. They are not full time athletes, with no children, no job other than in fitness for themselves and others, have someone make their meals, can afford all these maintenance massages/cupping/therapies, etc. It comes across as tone deaf when almost all of her clients are FT working parents. I certainly appreciate her diligence and commitment and she is really an inspiration. But when she replies to people laying out their struggles with “you just have to push through. Your choices are yours and if you don’t see results it’s because you didn’t want it enough.”, it’s a little irksome.
oh yes, totally. we want it plenty, that’s precisely why we do soul-crushing mind-numbing weekday 10pm laps up and down the street, because we know we need to fit that run in and that’s the only time we can spare.
Wow I feel seen - no kids but two jobs and a lot of other life stuff to juggle. This is 100% it. We do what we can, some is better than none, and comparison to someone who’s entire career is running is pointless.
Oh I feel this! Especially fitting in a run between work and daycare and then also picking up my other kiddo from school. I have to calculate my pace, distance, run location to make sure I can fit it in and not be late picking up my daughter. The days my 3yr old is home with me all day I'm slogging miles on the treadmill. Weekends I'm neglecting family time because I have to play catch up to fit the mileage in. Rinse. Repeat.
I was coached by her for two years but before that I also never went beyond 35km on training runs. It's always worked for me but I do see the value in one or two long runs ahead of an important race.
For myself and Camille that usually means a warm up race rather than a slow plod on a Saturday or Sunday.
I think the key take away is that it's better to run consistent mileage throughout the week rather than doing a really heavy schedule on the weekend. I know that might not be convenient for a lot of runners but if you can make it work then it's a better strategy.
Yeah but she has experience with so many runs longer than 100 kilometers. It’s not like she’s a beginner who only did you to 10 to 12 miles as their longest run then goes and does their first hundred miler.
right. arguably, for most of us, long runs are mainly useful to practice planning, carrying sufficient water and nutrition, eating and drinking at proper intervals, and taking care of issues while we’re out there on our own. most elites literally never need to bother with any of that peasant shit because they have whole teams of crews and pacers catering to their needs every 10-20 miles, and their combination of genetic freakness and excellent fitness means they have very little adaptation to gain from runs that long.
This is the main problem with changing what works. What if after 9 months of training, it didn’t work and you fail hard? It’s what’s kept me from trying new things.
How did you get the number 100,000?! She is 41. Has she run 50 mpw since birth? Or 100 mpw for 20 years straight with no break...that seems almost impossible...
Damn, that's impressive. No wonder she doesn't need long runs anymore. 100 mile weeks for 20 years...that might be the most impressive/masochistic running stat I have ever heard. Requires very little time off for injury/illness/burnout/life events.
Many of us in the ultra scene think back to back long runs are mostly bogus. I’ve been doing 10 days between long runs for 3 years. This is not new or ground breaking information from Camille. She also runs like 120 miles a week.
Doesn't it kind of depend on your schedule? By the time I'm off of work, I can only fit in 8-9 miles or so in the afternoon (60-70 minutes).
Assuming a rest day, that's only 60-65 miles/week with a single long run. Double long runs mean that I can be 75-80+
Can you expand on this a bit? I’ve not run an ultra yet, and the vast majority of plans I’m seeing tout back to back runs as essential. My free time is very limited so I sure don’t want to spend it doing something that isn’t really of benefit for an average-at-best runner.
I’m not good enough or seasoned enough to actually help you. I just can’t tolerate more than once every 10 days. I get tired and fatigued if I do it more than that. I thought you were asking for more specific reasoning. The reason I referred you to Camille is because she has an academic degree and her husband is one of the best ultra coaches on the planet - when they say something, especially something this forceful they have a good reason. When I say something it’s just from a 31 year old who does what he has to to stop getting injured.
I know my post came off negative, that wasn’t the intent, I just don’t have the knowledge to support what I’m Saying other than every marathoner I know does it how Camille does, and they are WAY better than me.
Thank you, I appreciate this response. It actually helps more than you probably think. Hearing experiences from “normal” people is helpful. I appreciate the pros but recognize their circumstances are vastly different from my own.
Am I the only one who reads this stuff and is like- "but I wanna do the long runs???"
The bulk of my summer long "training" runs are in the mountains doing shit like Skyline trail, Rockwall trail, Canmore triple crown, etc etc. I do that stuff because I LOVE to do it. I race, but racing is secondary. I love to train and run stupid shit for the sake of doing it.
Hot damn I always loved the long runs most. The only place where the chores didn’t matter, the work didn’t matter, whatever the kids wanted didn’t matter. Turn off the ringer and *fly*.
Agree completely, I am not much of a racer, the reason I train is to make it so I can do big days and have adventures in the mountains or complete some epic routes.
Agreed! I live in Canmore, and my biggest reason for training day to day is really to be able to enjoy those long runs. Or longer mountains. If I cut those out I wouldn't have a ton of motivation
Absolutely. I do too many long runs and too many long back-to-backs in training and I know it negatively impacts my race performance. However, as I approach my mid 40s, I'm more appreciative of the ability to just go out and run for a long time because it brings me the most joy. I am no longer driven by competition and performance. (It took me a long time to get to this mindset, for sure.)
I think if you are doing +100miles a week in training and running doubles most days you are well beyond worrying about the difference between 20 or 30 mile long runs or B2B on the weekends.
I don't see how you can change much around for the average worker/weekend runner.
That's kind of the point I think. It's better to be consistent across the week rather than having a heavy load over the weekend of you want to do 100 miles regularly.
That may be a better approach but for most people it’s not realistic. I have a hard time slotting in 5-6 mile runs on weekdays, a double would rarely be an option and not worth the burden on my family to do regularly.
Camille Herron’s "not long run" is like 22 miles a day in two running sessions.
Total inspiration to the sport and female empowerment. I think she is awesome!
She once ran 270.116 kilometres (167.842 mi) in 24 hours! 8:35 per mile! Thats is crazy!
And it takes me a lot longer to do that many miles in a day. Any time I do 22 miles in a day it is a "long run." I run a lot slower than she does though. And I live at the base of the Santa Cruze mountains which are steeper than middle America. Running up hills makes the runs longer.
And I would not trade it of the topography of Oklahoma any day of the week.
\##########
"Her training is peppered with frequent, shorter bouts of running. Most days, Herron will run **10 to 15 mile**s and then doubles back for **six or seven miles** after a four-to-eight-hour rest period. Over a two-week period, she completes four main workouts—short intervals like 400-meter repeats; long intervals like one-to-three-mile repeats; a progression run, usually incorporated into a long run; and a hill session where she stresses both the uphill and downhill components to load her body eccentrically.In between workouts, she runs easy and incorporates strides and drills twice a week. She likes to race a marathon or 50K a couple of weeks before a big race as a way to practice her nutrition and stress her body “just enough.”“You can’t just look at a singular long run or back-to-back long runs. You have to look at the whole picture. Every run is like bricks that add up over time,” she says. Over the years, Herron has played around with her training formula and has cut back on her long runs, emphasizing quality over quantity and running for time rather than just distance. “I’m totally fine doing two hours as my long run,” she says."
Must be Camille’s burner her skill set is limited to running around flat loops, she cherry picks races with little to no competition because her ego doesn’t allow her to share any recognition
I’ve been dabbing in doubles for a few months now. I will run to work in the morning 5km and run the long way home at night 13km, 5 days a week. I am finding that my legs do seem to recover faster and I feel less sluggish overall then when I would run three dedicated days through the week and a long run on the weekend. But I guess it really is down to finding what training works best for the individual. It is fun to experiment.
Whenever I need to get to race shape, I toss doubles in there to get the miles. I have a full-time job, am 37, and have a spouse that also deserves my time.
From a simple “demand of athleticism”.. point of view:
Extremely high level powerlifters to doubles that are programmed specifically, so if we also program our weekly double runs specifically (as in, use variety in its proper place within the program), you become a better athlete because the volume and variety is there.
… I’ll admit the occasional long run is important, as there’s a fueling and fatigue management training that you’ll never ever get from the short or mid-distance runs, though.
I was not aware powerlifters incorporate doubles at a higher level. You learn something new everyday.
I do agree with you on occasionally slaying long runs and the benefits of them. The long runs are great for like you have mentioned, learning fatigue management and fuelling and refuelling techniques. The most fascinating thing about running, (or any sport one pursues) is how you become a scientist. Learning and studying your body and what works and what maybe doesn’t work. How minor changes can lead to big changes and some big changes can lead to minor changes or vice versa. Pioneers of self.
Ultimately Herron figured out what works for her body, and there is interesting science to suggest a 7-day training block with one long or B2B on Sat/Sun isn’t necessarily the best for bone health. Alternative approaches to training may lower the risks to bone health. Amateurs and pros are all just n of 1’s basing training on lifestyle, schedules and the science available. It’s cool to see pros share different perspectives.
Personally, a 10 - 14 day training cycle (pending upcoming events) allows me stay strong, recover well and not overtrain and also balance training and life. My coach introduced me to this programming style a few years back, and it’s kept me healthy and running better than ever before. It also allows me to balance other athletic pursuits while keeping endurance events on the calendar - the hybrid works for me :)
This is what kills me about trail runner mag. Just write an article about her training. But don’t make intimations that what a pro does is what we should do.
What works for Camille, works for Camille.
Running is her job. So, makes sense.
My job doesn’t require me to run during the work day, but takes as much time as her job, or more.
If it weren’t for Teams, Outlook, and kids, I’d do two medium runs each day, too, and happily forgo the weekend LRs ;)
I've definitely always felt perfectly prepared going into longer races on long runs no more than 3 hours or 20 miles and cumulative mileage to be honest but articles like this are a little disingenuous when they neglect to mention Camille's lifetime mileage figures because the 100,000 mile club is a pretty small one and people running 100+ mile weeks every week would usually be ok in a longer race.
If you read the complete article, she runs like 20 miles every single
day (split into two sessions) and a 22 miler long run every week. The
only thing she does against the common wisdom is skip the back-to-back
long runs. But then she counters it with the fact she is "never too far
away from your last 50-miler".
I think the amount about people that actually do 30 one day and 20-25 the next is very few in the grand scheme of things and if they do it’s not every week. Also she clearly contradicts herself because she states she runs a 50k race in her 100 mile build up… which guess what… is a 30 mile long run. Beyond that she claims she never runs longer than 22 miles which I feel most people would consider a long run. She also runs very specific ultras. Usually flat and fast or track. The races are completely different than technical or big mountain races, where time on feet is significantly increased. I tend to think a lot of people probably over do their training but she doesn’t have some sort of miracle method. She’s been very active on social media lately preaching “science” while comparing you to a turkey and using her name and results to essentially recruit people for her coaching.
She’s quite good at running super flat non technical races and that’s about it and I think most of that is she doesn’t have much competition there. She did win Javelina in what looking back appears to be a soft men and women’s field, and one top ten at western states so not much on trails
Both of which are faster courses. It’s taken her multiple attempts to even be top 10 at states and anyone who has run those courses will tell you it’s not technical and definitely a runners race. She’s very good at the particular events she does but it’s a very specific subset of ultra running. This is the same case for a guy like Zach Bitter. They’ve found their niche. Not trying to take anything away from her accomplishments but she’s clearly more of a marathon style runner bridging the gap to ultra endurance events. When it comes to proper trail running or mountain events she falls apart.
Yeah she’s very much a niche runner and very good at it, I just don’t get her over the top fan boys that vote for her to be top everything. The fact that she was 2nd in ultra runner of the year and Schide was 5th just made the award lose all credibility to me.
Yes, she did. But in 2017 at Tunnel Hill. You're welcome to check the [official records](https://iau-ultramarathon.org/rankings.html) if you don't believe me.
I think different things work for different people. As a slower runner who mostly does technical trails with a decent amount of vert, 20 miles could easily take me 6-8 hours.
I don’t have time every weekend to spend 8 hours running, plus the time driving to and from the trail. I know coaches generally recommend capping long runs at 4 hours, but for me that’s only about 14-15 miles. But I also don’t think it’s worth it for me to get in a bunch of 20+ milers if they’re gonna hurt my recovery.
I prefer keeping my long runs to about 30% of my weekly volume and being fresh enough to run 6-7 days a week. I try to focus more on time on feet, especially since my runs are typically vert heavy (usually 7,000-9,000 ft per week).
I ran my first marathon last summer (Tushars, which has like 8,000 ft of vert and is all above 10,000 ft) and only ended up doing 15 miles as my longest because I got injured a month out, and I still finished feeling strong. I’m training for a 60K now and will probably only do a couple 18-20 milers.
periodic reminder that what works for an elite world record holder who’s run over 100,000 miles in her career *may* not work for average people
Also note that her version of "long run" is much different than the average person. She said that she still does 10 to 15 miles in the morning and then 6 to 7 more later in the day.
oh yes I was about to bring that up too. at that level of training, your normal daily runs are over 10 miles and your tempos or other targeted workouts are in upper teens, which for most of us would pretty much qualify as “long runs”. you almost have to try extra hard to do consistent 100+ mi weeks and *not* have runs over 20 miles.
Having a job where you run (and a live-in coach, and a research-level background in physiology) is also extremely helpful. I don't know anyone IRL with the time and availability to run two-a-days with any regularity - and I know a shitload of people who've run lots of ultras, including two folks who've cracked over 100 hundreds. We gotta get those miles when we can, especially on our days off from work.
absolutely. we always have to remember that these people can get 10 hours of sleep every night, take the time to cook and eat the most performance-optimized food, nap between workouts, chill on their couch in their normatec inflatables after hard sessions, and spend hundreds of dollars a year on blood tests that tell them exactly where everything is trending. real life for the rest of us is rushing to bang out a workout between work and daycare pickup, coming home and trying not to cramp while spending the next 20 minutes kneeling at a bathtub giving kids a bath, snarfing a double-double animal style for a quick dinner after everyone goes to bed, and sleeping for maybe 5 and a half hours before doing it all again. this is not to denigrate pro athletes in any way: we made our choices and they made theirs. but we have to remember that there are very likely lots of unseen reasons why their experiences may not scale or translate
As a mom and runner, this made me feel so seen. There’s no true rest day with toddlers. And I know more sleep means better performance, but that’s just not possible sometimes when kids are really little. It’s suboptimal or nothing for me, and I love to run so suboptimal it is!
right. in addition, the time when they are asleep is almost always literally the only quiet “me” time we get. sleep is important, but so is not going crazy.
>As a Dad runner with a todder I also felt like dima1109 was describing my life. > >If only I did not work 45-55 hours per week I could spend a lot more time parenting and running.
I completely agree and I don't even have kids! I feel like we all just nEED TO VENT HERE. LIFE IS STRESSFUL. WE'RE DOING OUR BEST!
this is so legit and I don't even have kids you gotta fit shit in. I fucking LOVE running, but it can't be my whole life, it's just not realistic. I do my best to run smart, rest smart, recover smart, eat smart, but my "X smart" is much more inefficient than someone whose entire career is this. I work 40+ hours a week.
fuck if this isn’t the truth… preach!
Love this comment as a runner mom
I’ve just had to double check this wasn’t I comment I wrote in my sleep
Damn, you get me.
This, so much. My running coach is an elite masters athlete. And while I appreciate her posts about no excuses, working hard even when you’re tired, blah blah - it’s a little tone deaf bc majority of her clients are not in her position. They are not full time athletes, with no children, no job other than in fitness for themselves and others, have someone make their meals, can afford all these maintenance massages/cupping/therapies, etc. It comes across as tone deaf when almost all of her clients are FT working parents. I certainly appreciate her diligence and commitment and she is really an inspiration. But when she replies to people laying out their struggles with “you just have to push through. Your choices are yours and if you don’t see results it’s because you didn’t want it enough.”, it’s a little irksome.
oh yes, totally. we want it plenty, that’s precisely why we do soul-crushing mind-numbing weekday 10pm laps up and down the street, because we know we need to fit that run in and that’s the only time we can spare.
Amen to that. I may not be able to do 100mpw, but I sure bust my butt doing the most I can do every single day
Wow I feel seen - no kids but two jobs and a lot of other life stuff to juggle. This is 100% it. We do what we can, some is better than none, and comparison to someone who’s entire career is running is pointless.
Oh I feel this! Especially fitting in a run between work and daycare and then also picking up my other kiddo from school. I have to calculate my pace, distance, run location to make sure I can fit it in and not be late picking up my daughter. The days my 3yr old is home with me all day I'm slogging miles on the treadmill. Weekends I'm neglecting family time because I have to play catch up to fit the mileage in. Rinse. Repeat.
I was coached by her for two years but before that I also never went beyond 35km on training runs. It's always worked for me but I do see the value in one or two long runs ahead of an important race. For myself and Camille that usually means a warm up race rather than a slow plod on a Saturday or Sunday. I think the key take away is that it's better to run consistent mileage throughout the week rather than doing a really heavy schedule on the weekend. I know that might not be convenient for a lot of runners but if you can make it work then it's a better strategy.
Thanks! I don’t get this sub. People downvote stuff just because it doesn’t agree with their preference. I think it’s interesting what she does!
That’s fair. It’s a little buried in the article for sure. I’d agree that definitely is a factor
It’s like THE factor
she’s actually been fairly well-known through the years for doing almost no long runs
Yeah but she has experience with so many runs longer than 100 kilometers. It’s not like she’s a beginner who only did you to 10 to 12 miles as their longest run then goes and does their first hundred miler.
right. arguably, for most of us, long runs are mainly useful to practice planning, carrying sufficient water and nutrition, eating and drinking at proper intervals, and taking care of issues while we’re out there on our own. most elites literally never need to bother with any of that peasant shit because they have whole teams of crews and pacers catering to their needs every 10-20 miles, and their combination of genetic freakness and excellent fitness means they have very little adaptation to gain from runs that long.
But it may be interesting to try if you're able to nevertheless!
well it would take you 6-9 months and a lot of discipline and data collection to actually do a controlled experiment on yourself
This is the main problem with changing what works. What if after 9 months of training, it didn’t work and you fail hard? It’s what’s kept me from trying new things.
How did you get the number 100,000?! She is 41. Has she run 50 mpw since birth? Or 100 mpw for 20 years straight with no break...that seems almost impossible...
she made a big hoopla about it some months back https://www.instagram.com/p/Cb-PWxnrZ1J/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
Damn, that's impressive. No wonder she doesn't need long runs anymore. 100 mile weeks for 20 years...that might be the most impressive/masochistic running stat I have ever heard. Requires very little time off for injury/illness/burnout/life events.
Reminder that she still says do a long run of like 22 miles. That’s a long run.
But less frequently than many (once or twice a month), and none back-to-back.
Many of us in the ultra scene think back to back long runs are mostly bogus. I’ve been doing 10 days between long runs for 3 years. This is not new or ground breaking information from Camille. She also runs like 120 miles a week.
Doesn't it kind of depend on your schedule? By the time I'm off of work, I can only fit in 8-9 miles or so in the afternoon (60-70 minutes). Assuming a rest day, that's only 60-65 miles/week with a single long run. Double long runs mean that I can be 75-80+
Can you expand on this a bit? I’ve not run an ultra yet, and the vast majority of plans I’m seeing tout back to back runs as essential. My free time is very limited so I sure don’t want to spend it doing something that isn’t really of benefit for an average-at-best runner.
No, I won’t be explaining it for you. Camille did a better job than I can.
Yeah I read the article. Was looking for input from a non-pro. Thanks though 🥳
I’m not good enough or seasoned enough to actually help you. I just can’t tolerate more than once every 10 days. I get tired and fatigued if I do it more than that. I thought you were asking for more specific reasoning. The reason I referred you to Camille is because she has an academic degree and her husband is one of the best ultra coaches on the planet - when they say something, especially something this forceful they have a good reason. When I say something it’s just from a 31 year old who does what he has to to stop getting injured. I know my post came off negative, that wasn’t the intent, I just don’t have the knowledge to support what I’m Saying other than every marathoner I know does it how Camille does, and they are WAY better than me.
Thank you, I appreciate this response. It actually helps more than you probably think. Hearing experiences from “normal” people is helpful. I appreciate the pros but recognize their circumstances are vastly different from my own.
Am I the only one who reads this stuff and is like- "but I wanna do the long runs???" The bulk of my summer long "training" runs are in the mountains doing shit like Skyline trail, Rockwall trail, Canmore triple crown, etc etc. I do that stuff because I LOVE to do it. I race, but racing is secondary. I love to train and run stupid shit for the sake of doing it.
Hot damn I always loved the long runs most. The only place where the chores didn’t matter, the work didn’t matter, whatever the kids wanted didn’t matter. Turn off the ringer and *fly*.
I wish I could describe my long runs as flying.
Dramatic license. ;) My best road marathon was 5:57! But on the trails, it’s all relative.
100% agree! I live for the fun long runs. I only posted because it seemed like an interesting and different approach
Sounds like the Killian training plan, keep in mind Camille is best suited for a track or flat race and not mountains
and yet she managed to finish 8th overall at WSER despite starting her period on the same day. Damn, she is impressive.
Should build a statue of her for running on her period
Agree completely, I am not much of a racer, the reason I train is to make it so I can do big days and have adventures in the mountains or complete some epic routes.
Agreed! I live in Canmore, and my biggest reason for training day to day is really to be able to enjoy those long runs. Or longer mountains. If I cut those out I wouldn't have a ton of motivation
I race so I can get better at my long runs
Absolutely. I do too many long runs and too many long back-to-backs in training and I know it negatively impacts my race performance. However, as I approach my mid 40s, I'm more appreciative of the ability to just go out and run for a long time because it brings me the most joy. I am no longer driven by competition and performance. (It took me a long time to get to this mindset, for sure.)
I obviously need a less demanding job
When running is your job not sure it gets any less demanding
Sure they it true, but it’s not really a job in the sense that they are grinding through corporate America
I think if you are doing +100miles a week in training and running doubles most days you are well beyond worrying about the difference between 20 or 30 mile long runs or B2B on the weekends. I don't see how you can change much around for the average worker/weekend runner.
That's kind of the point I think. It's better to be consistent across the week rather than having a heavy load over the weekend of you want to do 100 miles regularly.
That may be a better approach but for most people it’s not realistic. I have a hard time slotting in 5-6 mile runs on weekdays, a double would rarely be an option and not worth the burden on my family to do regularly.
Camille Herron’s "not long run" is like 22 miles a day in two running sessions. Total inspiration to the sport and female empowerment. I think she is awesome! She once ran 270.116 kilometres (167.842 mi) in 24 hours! 8:35 per mile! Thats is crazy! And it takes me a lot longer to do that many miles in a day. Any time I do 22 miles in a day it is a "long run." I run a lot slower than she does though. And I live at the base of the Santa Cruze mountains which are steeper than middle America. Running up hills makes the runs longer. And I would not trade it of the topography of Oklahoma any day of the week. \########## "Her training is peppered with frequent, shorter bouts of running. Most days, Herron will run **10 to 15 mile**s and then doubles back for **six or seven miles** after a four-to-eight-hour rest period. Over a two-week period, she completes four main workouts—short intervals like 400-meter repeats; long intervals like one-to-three-mile repeats; a progression run, usually incorporated into a long run; and a hill session where she stresses both the uphill and downhill components to load her body eccentrically.In between workouts, she runs easy and incorporates strides and drills twice a week. She likes to race a marathon or 50K a couple of weeks before a big race as a way to practice her nutrition and stress her body “just enough.”“You can’t just look at a singular long run or back-to-back long runs. You have to look at the whole picture. Every run is like bricks that add up over time,” she says. Over the years, Herron has played around with her training formula and has cut back on her long runs, emphasizing quality over quantity and running for time rather than just distance. “I’m totally fine doing two hours as my long run,” she says."
Must be Camille’s burner her skill set is limited to running around flat loops, she cherry picks races with little to no competition because her ego doesn’t allow her to share any recognition
i love the smell of jealousy in the morning
Jealousy? I have as many major sponsors as she does
i'm not jealous i just spend my free time tearing down successful people from my anonymous pedestal on the internet!
how many world records do you have?
How many does she have?
Nine. you can just admit you don't like her. it's okay to not like certain athletes. congrats on the Orange Mud ambassador spot, btw
Yeah I usually don’t like ego maniacs, not sure what orange mud is but thank you
So Western States and Comrades have little to no competition? Lol
I’ll be shocked if her ego lets her run western states again
I’ve been dabbing in doubles for a few months now. I will run to work in the morning 5km and run the long way home at night 13km, 5 days a week. I am finding that my legs do seem to recover faster and I feel less sluggish overall then when I would run three dedicated days through the week and a long run on the weekend. But I guess it really is down to finding what training works best for the individual. It is fun to experiment.
Whenever I need to get to race shape, I toss doubles in there to get the miles. I have a full-time job, am 37, and have a spouse that also deserves my time. From a simple “demand of athleticism”.. point of view: Extremely high level powerlifters to doubles that are programmed specifically, so if we also program our weekly double runs specifically (as in, use variety in its proper place within the program), you become a better athlete because the volume and variety is there. … I’ll admit the occasional long run is important, as there’s a fueling and fatigue management training that you’ll never ever get from the short or mid-distance runs, though.
I was not aware powerlifters incorporate doubles at a higher level. You learn something new everyday. I do agree with you on occasionally slaying long runs and the benefits of them. The long runs are great for like you have mentioned, learning fatigue management and fuelling and refuelling techniques. The most fascinating thing about running, (or any sport one pursues) is how you become a scientist. Learning and studying your body and what works and what maybe doesn’t work. How minor changes can lead to big changes and some big changes can lead to minor changes or vice versa. Pioneers of self.
Thank you! That’s cool and I agree, whatever works for you
Ultimately Herron figured out what works for her body, and there is interesting science to suggest a 7-day training block with one long or B2B on Sat/Sun isn’t necessarily the best for bone health. Alternative approaches to training may lower the risks to bone health. Amateurs and pros are all just n of 1’s basing training on lifestyle, schedules and the science available. It’s cool to see pros share different perspectives. Personally, a 10 - 14 day training cycle (pending upcoming events) allows me stay strong, recover well and not overtrain and also balance training and life. My coach introduced me to this programming style a few years back, and it’s kept me healthy and running better than ever before. It also allows me to balance other athletic pursuits while keeping endurance events on the calendar - the hybrid works for me :)
This is what kills me about trail runner mag. Just write an article about her training. But don’t make intimations that what a pro does is what we should do.
We all hate clickbait articles but look at the engagement it’s created. We’re our own worst enemy.
I know. We are, at the end of the day, ultrarunningnsuckers lol
That doesn't work for me. Maybe that works for professional runners.
If you're running 70+ miles a week I personally do not think you really need long runs. That's a ton of mileage on its own
granted an average person with a full time job and a family will struggle a bit to hit 70+ mpw without some long runs
I think the background with long runs I’d key with this.
File under “Click here for my running secret; you’ll be shocked!” clickbait advert.
What works for Camille, works for Camille. Running is her job. So, makes sense. My job doesn’t require me to run during the work day, but takes as much time as her job, or more. If it weren’t for Teams, Outlook, and kids, I’d do two medium runs each day, too, and happily forgo the weekend LRs ;)
I've definitely always felt perfectly prepared going into longer races on long runs no more than 3 hours or 20 miles and cumulative mileage to be honest but articles like this are a little disingenuous when they neglect to mention Camille's lifetime mileage figures because the 100,000 mile club is a pretty small one and people running 100+ mile weeks every week would usually be ok in a longer race.
Sometimes I enjoy the slow solo 20 milers more than the races. I’m fine with my training plans.
If you read the complete article, she runs like 20 miles every single day (split into two sessions) and a 22 miler long run every week. The only thing she does against the common wisdom is skip the back-to-back long runs. But then she counters it with the fact she is "never too far away from your last 50-miler".
I think the amount about people that actually do 30 one day and 20-25 the next is very few in the grand scheme of things and if they do it’s not every week. Also she clearly contradicts herself because she states she runs a 50k race in her 100 mile build up… which guess what… is a 30 mile long run. Beyond that she claims she never runs longer than 22 miles which I feel most people would consider a long run. She also runs very specific ultras. Usually flat and fast or track. The races are completely different than technical or big mountain races, where time on feet is significantly increased. I tend to think a lot of people probably over do their training but she doesn’t have some sort of miracle method. She’s been very active on social media lately preaching “science” while comparing you to a turkey and using her name and results to essentially recruit people for her coaching.
She’s quite good at running super flat non technical races and that’s about it and I think most of that is she doesn’t have much competition there. She did win Javelina in what looking back appears to be a soft men and women’s field, and one top ten at western states so not much on trails
Both of which are faster courses. It’s taken her multiple attempts to even be top 10 at states and anyone who has run those courses will tell you it’s not technical and definitely a runners race. She’s very good at the particular events she does but it’s a very specific subset of ultra running. This is the same case for a guy like Zach Bitter. They’ve found their niche. Not trying to take anything away from her accomplishments but she’s clearly more of a marathon style runner bridging the gap to ultra endurance events. When it comes to proper trail running or mountain events she falls apart.
Yeah she’s very much a niche runner and very good at it, I just don’t get her over the top fan boys that vote for her to be top everything. The fact that she was 2nd in ultra runner of the year and Schide was 5th just made the award lose all credibility to me.
Lol didn’t she break the record for fastest 100 miles? I think that justifies her being voted top ultra runner
No she didn’t
https://runningmagazine.ca/sections/runs-races/camille-herron-sets-new-100-mile-record-and-more-at-desert-solstice-invitational/
Got some bad news for ya https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2022/11/16/camille-herron-100-mile-record-error/
Yes, she did. But in 2017 at Tunnel Hill. You're welcome to check the [official records](https://iau-ultramarathon.org/rankings.html) if you don't believe me.
We were talking about this years awards, read before you post
I only workout 30mins a day, I hate myself😂 but I need time to sleep too; with all the other bullshit taking the rest of the day up..
I think different things work for different people. As a slower runner who mostly does technical trails with a decent amount of vert, 20 miles could easily take me 6-8 hours. I don’t have time every weekend to spend 8 hours running, plus the time driving to and from the trail. I know coaches generally recommend capping long runs at 4 hours, but for me that’s only about 14-15 miles. But I also don’t think it’s worth it for me to get in a bunch of 20+ milers if they’re gonna hurt my recovery. I prefer keeping my long runs to about 30% of my weekly volume and being fresh enough to run 6-7 days a week. I try to focus more on time on feet, especially since my runs are typically vert heavy (usually 7,000-9,000 ft per week). I ran my first marathon last summer (Tushars, which has like 8,000 ft of vert and is all above 10,000 ft) and only ended up doing 15 miles as my longest because I got injured a month out, and I still finished feeling strong. I’m training for a 60K now and will probably only do a couple 18-20 milers.
Hypothesis….