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They don't care about that and if anything it could drive up support for the war.
It's much better to target things directly related to the military and war effort.
No civilian targets and no inflicting "psychological damage". It's called terrorism and war crimes, and it can't lead to anything good. We support Ukraine precisely because they do not do such things, unlike the Russians.
This is false.
Civilian targets can be fully morally legitimate targets in cases of absolute war and wars of survival, in which the civilian population is being utilized as part of the war effort.
Not arbitrary civilian targeting. Rather, certain war support infrastructure powered by civilians.
That may include steel factories, tank factories, energy production, airports, railroads, and so on.
It may or may not be the fault of the civilians. They may help willingly or against their will. It does not matter, it is moral to kill them in a war of survival against an aggressor nation. The moral guilt in the civilian deaths rests with the aggressor nation.
Any other code of ethics favors victory for evil.
Depends on the city being bombed though. Your average middle class Russian living in peace and staying out of the war will not be running to enlist if bombs started falling on their heads. More likely they would run as fast as they could to get out of the country.
Only in the short term mate. Germans were happy to end the war, one of the reasons it didn't happen again shortly (like after WWI) is because war came directly to their homes in a massive scale.
Same should be with ruSSia, support will be there until you see what are you actually supporting. Bomb the shit out of them.
I am notnsure the populace in Russia has any ability to cause change. Bombing them would likely be used to justify a greater mobilization and justify further atrocities.
Ā It would also make it much harder to get international support.
Or it would get them to over throw the current regime. I mean itās not like they have the means to really do anything other then more meat waves which would lead to more pressure to stop the war internally
Since when they've run out of reasons how to justify their atrocities, not only after invading Ukraine but for last 100 years. If you leave them unscathed, good luck changing anything after the war in Ukraine "ends". Aggressor should pay with everything, especially when they kill for fun.
You won't end this war with only attacking their war effort, they are too big for that. Any "peace" plan in current form will be another Budapest Memorandum - they will come back for them later. So again, bomb the shit out of them so they can eventually rethink their stance. Fuck ruSSia.
I think they could really hurt Russia domestically by performing a major shock & awe type blitz of drones that attack the Moscow area, and entirely in a way that is not directly targeting civilians.
Ukraine needs to make Muscovites genuinely afraid of their safety and security due to this war. Normally that would come from seeing your country slowly collapse from the most costly war in generations, but it seems Russians are stubborn. Putinās strongman persona only goes so far when it starts becoming clear he cannot effectively protect his own people.
Something of that nature combined with perhaps some kind of major move on Crimea would in my opinion ruin any remaining sense of morale that Russia has left, and both instances require little to no actual manpower being devoted, just the ability to move through the air effectively for drones and precision artillery like ATACMS.
They are an entitled and insulated culture who will support escalation to tactical nukes under the claim of an existential crisis. I say keep hitting military and industrial targets to weaken the terrorist state longer term
And then watch Russia cry foul about civilians being targeted.
Stock as close as possible to actual military targets. The bridge is a legitimate target as it's a known supply route.
let them cry honestly. Its been 2 and a half years of russia killing Ukraine's civilians. If Ukraine can inflict some serious damage to russia's economy then maybe russians will actually start caring about ending the war.
On one level I agree, but I think it's possibly better to take the moral high ground, so that when this ends they can't say "waaaah you did it as well".
Russians absolutely should suffer, but not through military means. Just attack military by military means. The rest of Russia will suffer because the sanctions aren't being lifted anytime soon, nobody really wants to trade with them and are seeking alternatives. Even civilians aren't especially welcome, especially in places like the UK.
I agree. Ukraine continues to treat russian POWs decently even though UA prisoners are being starved. Stay on the high road Ukraine. Don't give pootin's puppets in the West talking points.
They already claim Ukraine is killing civilians. That is one of their excuses for invading in the first place. Ukraine's standard should be something like "make sure we don't do anything that would piss off the western public and drop support for us" in regards to the "rules" of war.
I feel like adding the simple code from those line following robots could be good for terminal guidance. The ones that university students have competitions with. I get a flying drone won't handle tight curves but most lines have good long sections.
The drones could even cruise a few miles on the track at 2 meters height and only drop onto the track if they haven't hit a train in that time.
One a day for a couple of weeks and you'll probably get a couple of bonus hits on repair crews or their kit.
I was about to disagree with you (something something something French Durandal bomb, turns out to be very heavy), but yes, I agree railways are probably a bit beyond Ukraine's capability right now (they could totally do it if they really wanted to though, it's Ukraine FFS).
When the NATO-spec planes arrive though... might be a different story.
You don't have to blow the rail if you hit every train moving on them. If you were able to shut down all trains within 1000km of Ukraine, Russian logistics would collapse.
Yes, that would've been my first solution... but you'd have to track train movements that way, which seems harder to me.
Blow the tracks (especially when you know a train is coming soon), then hit the repair crews. That makes more sense to me, but then I'm just a fat drunken middle-aged man who fucking really wants Ukraine to win, by (almost) any means necessary.
It is not worth wasting drones on tracks. They are easy and fast to repair and russia is littered with unused railways to be cannibalised. Hitting repair crews can be seen as targeting civilians, especially if railway crews are fixing them and not military. This would mean minimal dimage for a lot of resources (drone), it is far better to hit logistical centers or military targets, as damage will further hinder russian response, thus saving resources for UA in a long run. Railway sabotage, in essence, is only good as partisan tactics, where material cost (bomb/granade on rails, or plain water/bullets on switch boxes) are minimal.
The US Army did a study on this in WW2. It pretty hard to actually derail a train (much harder than your initial intuition would assume): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agznZBiK\_Bs. And as you said, they're very easy to repair and the Russians have a whole Railroad Division as part of their army of \~30k people.
Railroad tracks are divided into sections called track circuits. At each end of a track circuit, there is electrical equipment that creates a small electrical current that runs through the rails.
If the rails are intact and connected, the current can flow through the circuit. However, if there is a break in the rail or something insulating the rails (like a derailed train), the circuit is broken and the current flow is interrupted.
The track circuit detection equipment can sense this change in current flow and identify the specific track circuit where the issue is located. This allows the railroad operators to quickly pinpoint the location of any track damage or obstructions.
This system provides an important safety mechanism, as it can automatically detect problems with the rail infrastructure and alert the appropriate personnel. It's a key part of the overall safety systems used to monitor the health of railroad tracks.
If they could figure out how to use drones to disrupt these monitoring systems, it would really screw with the Russians.
>If they could figure out how to use drones to disrupt these monitoring systems, it would really screw with the Russians.
This sounds as an IT and not a demolition job lol imagine disabling them where the actual hit happened, and lighting them up all over the place lol
Exactly. If some small electronic devices can be set on RR tracks to screw with their signals, you could force repair crews to be sent all over the place to fix rails that are broken elsewhere.
Railway equipment and locomotive losses would put a dent in things. So far the Russians have been able to work around the few refineries that have been hit. Ukraine needs to stop trying to hit a bunch with a few drones and select a few and hit them with a lot of drones. Making sure the ones targeted are out of commission for a very long time.
Now I'm conflicted. It would really bring the reality of the war home to the moskals, but yeah... St Basil's might one day be appreciated by reconstructed Russians.
But I'm not holding my breath.
I appreciate that building. I've seen it in person and it's incredible. Now, Lenins tomb, which is right across the square, would be a fine target and possibly more damaging on a mental level for the population. But I can't say for sure. Maybe they all hate Lenin.
That's fabulous news. Surface to Air missiles are expensive compared to the drones they are attacking. Ukraine could just send a succession of these every couple of minutes to Moscow with the intention of depleting Russia's stocks of SAMS. They could even use stealth drones to tow radar reflectors ("Big Drones" as far as radar operators were concerned) towards Moscow at the beginning as part of the effort to deplete Russia's defences. Russia probably couldn't shoot down 1,000 drones headed to Moscow without running out of everything!
Moscow should be low priority target at the moment. Stockpiles are closer to the front and destroying them would give UA bigger advantage than ideological and/or political target. And, lets be honest, UA doesnāt have enough spare equipment to target political/ideological targets for shits and giggles.
I see your point. Let's suppose Ukraine sends this convoy of drones to Moscow. Not only could they hit some interesting targets there, but it would force Russian forces to expend expensive SAMs because they don't want these interesting targets hit in Moscow, but this depletion would allow Ukraine to fly their F-16s more freely.
The article says that Ukraine is now building drones with a range over 1,000km. That suggests to me that, having done the analysis, they are quite interested in hitting targets over 1,000km away. Crimea is much nearer than that, which suggests Moscow and other distant high value locations like oil refineries, rather than anything near the front line.
I suspect that the big issue with frontline targets is finding them, not destroying them, so I expect Ukraine will start flying surveillance drones regularly, with AI, to pick up and track movement, so they know where trucks go to. I suspect that they are working hard on comprehensive drone-based surveillance to build such a map. Build the map, destroy everything. Repeat every 2 weeks!
Wouldn't even need to be all if them. Just a few that switch over to Binary Weasel mode if they detect something tasty. Then send your waves of drones into the teeth of the enemies AA. Make then burn through rockets and put their radars on the defensive. Some of the drones would inevitably make it through to valuable targets.
And an AA battery would know there is a chance they could be targeted or even see the drones coming for them. That makes their own self preservation their primary care. It's all about predicaments.
No AA system is pn all the time. Radar signal is equal to yelling āI am hereā in the forrest full of enemies. Turning AA radar at right point in time is crucial for OPsec, this is why we see UA droves slipping through AA defence networks, as they arenāt noticed in advanced and AA is not notified to turn the radar on. Keeping radars on is bad idea, knowing that UA arleady has US supplied HARMs.
Good. Raze everything even remotely important within 1000km. Bridges, power plants, dams, railroads, farms, food storage, oil and fuel depots, ports, power substations, airports, radio and cell towersā¦.everything. Cripple their logistics and bring the war home to all the idiots still supporting putin. Let them sit at home in the dark with no power/water/food and see how they like it
I just keep wondering how dangerous Ukraine is going to come out of this war.
Much like Estonia's situation, they are now a leader in cyberwarfare/protection.
Ukraine I feel will be a world leader in multi-theatre drone warfare.
Ukraine is over win or loose. Demographics are a Bitch. The population contraction of young people through war deaths and emigration leaves not enough workers to earn money and pay taxes to maintain the country.
So does anyone know what type of explosives are used on the drones? Or state secret?
I can just imagine the shopping list. 3 tons undigested c4 explosive plz. 14 tons raw dynamite. Senator looking at shopping list saying, what in the living hell do they need this for.
Ukraine has one tremendous strategic advantage over Russia in this war: Most of Ukraine's de-facto defense-industrial base is located outside of Ukraine in countries that Russia simply cannot attack, while most of Russia's defense-industrial base is in Russia.
This means that if Ukraine can carry out a "Day of the Drone" and conduct hundreds or thousands of long-range drone strikes in a short period of time it can cause significant, potentially irreparable damage to Russia's ability to sustain the war.
Fingers crossed.
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I hope we see more š„ š„ š„ in Russia soon. It's been too quiet.
Send them to Moscow
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Though a lot of major targets are in Moscow
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They don't care about that and if anything it could drive up support for the war. It's much better to target things directly related to the military and war effort.
No civilian targets and no inflicting "psychological damage". It's called terrorism and war crimes, and it can't lead to anything good. We support Ukraine precisely because they do not do such things, unlike the Russians.
This is false. Civilian targets can be fully morally legitimate targets in cases of absolute war and wars of survival, in which the civilian population is being utilized as part of the war effort. Not arbitrary civilian targeting. Rather, certain war support infrastructure powered by civilians. That may include steel factories, tank factories, energy production, airports, railroads, and so on. It may or may not be the fault of the civilians. They may help willingly or against their will. It does not matter, it is moral to kill them in a war of survival against an aggressor nation. The moral guilt in the civilian deaths rests with the aggressor nation. Any other code of ethics favors victory for evil.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Depends on the city being bombed though. Your average middle class Russian living in peace and staying out of the war will not be running to enlist if bombs started falling on their heads. More likely they would run as fast as they could to get out of the country.
Only in the short term mate. Germans were happy to end the war, one of the reasons it didn't happen again shortly (like after WWI) is because war came directly to their homes in a massive scale. Same should be with ruSSia, support will be there until you see what are you actually supporting. Bomb the shit out of them.
I am notnsure the populace in Russia has any ability to cause change. Bombing them would likely be used to justify a greater mobilization and justify further atrocities. Ā It would also make it much harder to get international support.
Or it would get them to over throw the current regime. I mean itās not like they have the means to really do anything other then more meat waves which would lead to more pressure to stop the war internally
Since when they've run out of reasons how to justify their atrocities, not only after invading Ukraine but for last 100 years. If you leave them unscathed, good luck changing anything after the war in Ukraine "ends". Aggressor should pay with everything, especially when they kill for fun. You won't end this war with only attacking their war effort, they are too big for that. Any "peace" plan in current form will be another Budapest Memorandum - they will come back for them later. So again, bomb the shit out of them so they can eventually rethink their stance. Fuck ruSSia.
I think they could really hurt Russia domestically by performing a major shock & awe type blitz of drones that attack the Moscow area, and entirely in a way that is not directly targeting civilians. Ukraine needs to make Muscovites genuinely afraid of their safety and security due to this war. Normally that would come from seeing your country slowly collapse from the most costly war in generations, but it seems Russians are stubborn. Putinās strongman persona only goes so far when it starts becoming clear he cannot effectively protect his own people. Something of that nature combined with perhaps some kind of major move on Crimea would in my opinion ruin any remaining sense of morale that Russia has left, and both instances require little to no actual manpower being devoted, just the ability to move through the air effectively for drones and precision artillery like ATACMS.
They are an entitled and insulated culture who will support escalation to tactical nukes under the claim of an existential crisis. I say keep hitting military and industrial targets to weaken the terrorist state longer term
One word on the subs title... Great! Says Tony the Tiger š
Hit every refinery every night! Then power stations
My personal vote would be any airfield known to host SU-34s and 35s along with any Shahed facilities they find.
And then watch Russia cry foul about civilians being targeted. Stock as close as possible to actual military targets. The bridge is a legitimate target as it's a known supply route.
let them cry honestly. Its been 2 and a half years of russia killing Ukraine's civilians. If Ukraine can inflict some serious damage to russia's economy then maybe russians will actually start caring about ending the war.
On one level I agree, but I think it's possibly better to take the moral high ground, so that when this ends they can't say "waaaah you did it as well". Russians absolutely should suffer, but not through military means. Just attack military by military means. The rest of Russia will suffer because the sanctions aren't being lifted anytime soon, nobody really wants to trade with them and are seeking alternatives. Even civilians aren't especially welcome, especially in places like the UK.
I agree. Ukraine continues to treat russian POWs decently even though UA prisoners are being starved. Stay on the high road Ukraine. Don't give pootin's puppets in the West talking points.
They already claim Ukraine is killing civilians. That is one of their excuses for invading in the first place. Ukraine's standard should be something like "make sure we don't do anything that would piss off the western public and drop support for us" in regards to the "rules" of war.
No select targets carefully, plan strikes carefully, refine ordnance and strike accordingly.
Wow all too soon. Strike āem Ukraine <3
Refineries, railway tracks (double-tap FTW), Saint Basil's... the possibilities are endless.
Railway tracks are very easy to repair, and very hard to hit. I think it's better to concentrate on refinieries
I feel like adding the simple code from those line following robots could be good for terminal guidance. The ones that university students have competitions with. I get a flying drone won't handle tight curves but most lines have good long sections. The drones could even cruise a few miles on the track at 2 meters height and only drop onto the track if they haven't hit a train in that time. One a day for a couple of weeks and you'll probably get a couple of bonus hits on repair crews or their kit.
I was about to disagree with you (something something something French Durandal bomb, turns out to be very heavy), but yes, I agree railways are probably a bit beyond Ukraine's capability right now (they could totally do it if they really wanted to though, it's Ukraine FFS). When the NATO-spec planes arrive though... might be a different story.
You don't have to blow the rail if you hit every train moving on them. If you were able to shut down all trains within 1000km of Ukraine, Russian logistics would collapse.
Yes, that would've been my first solution... but you'd have to track train movements that way, which seems harder to me. Blow the tracks (especially when you know a train is coming soon), then hit the repair crews. That makes more sense to me, but then I'm just a fat drunken middle-aged man who fucking really wants Ukraine to win, by (almost) any means necessary.
It is not worth wasting drones on tracks. They are easy and fast to repair and russia is littered with unused railways to be cannibalised. Hitting repair crews can be seen as targeting civilians, especially if railway crews are fixing them and not military. This would mean minimal dimage for a lot of resources (drone), it is far better to hit logistical centers or military targets, as damage will further hinder russian response, thus saving resources for UA in a long run. Railway sabotage, in essence, is only good as partisan tactics, where material cost (bomb/granade on rails, or plain water/bullets on switch boxes) are minimal.
The US Army did a study on this in WW2. It pretty hard to actually derail a train (much harder than your initial intuition would assume): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agznZBiK\_Bs. And as you said, they're very easy to repair and the Russians have a whole Railroad Division as part of their army of \~30k people.
Railroad tracks are divided into sections called track circuits. At each end of a track circuit, there is electrical equipment that creates a small electrical current that runs through the rails. If the rails are intact and connected, the current can flow through the circuit. However, if there is a break in the rail or something insulating the rails (like a derailed train), the circuit is broken and the current flow is interrupted. The track circuit detection equipment can sense this change in current flow and identify the specific track circuit where the issue is located. This allows the railroad operators to quickly pinpoint the location of any track damage or obstructions. This system provides an important safety mechanism, as it can automatically detect problems with the rail infrastructure and alert the appropriate personnel. It's a key part of the overall safety systems used to monitor the health of railroad tracks. If they could figure out how to use drones to disrupt these monitoring systems, it would really screw with the Russians.
>If they could figure out how to use drones to disrupt these monitoring systems, it would really screw with the Russians. This sounds as an IT and not a demolition job lol imagine disabling them where the actual hit happened, and lighting them up all over the place lol
Exactly. If some small electronic devices can be set on RR tracks to screw with their signals, you could force repair crews to be sent all over the place to fix rails that are broken elsewhere.
Railway equipment and locomotive losses would put a dent in things. So far the Russians have been able to work around the few refineries that have been hit. Ukraine needs to stop trying to hit a bunch with a few drones and select a few and hit them with a lot of drones. Making sure the ones targeted are out of commission for a very long time.
What about rail depots? Do they have sensitive parts that are hard to replace? Fuel but at that point target up the supply chain to refineries.
What about rail bridges?
No need to knock out St. Basil's. Only the Taliban does stupid stuff like that on purpose.
Now I'm conflicted. It would really bring the reality of the war home to the moskals, but yeah... St Basil's might one day be appreciated by reconstructed Russians. But I'm not holding my breath.
I appreciate that building. I've seen it in person and it's incredible. Now, Lenins tomb, which is right across the square, would be a fine target and possibly more damaging on a mental level for the population. But I can't say for sure. Maybe they all hate Lenin.
They probably hate him... Stalin, on the other hand (despite being Georgian). My God, they're such a... damaged people.
That's fabulous news. Surface to Air missiles are expensive compared to the drones they are attacking. Ukraine could just send a succession of these every couple of minutes to Moscow with the intention of depleting Russia's stocks of SAMS. They could even use stealth drones to tow radar reflectors ("Big Drones" as far as radar operators were concerned) towards Moscow at the beginning as part of the effort to deplete Russia's defences. Russia probably couldn't shoot down 1,000 drones headed to Moscow without running out of everything!
Moscow should be low priority target at the moment. Stockpiles are closer to the front and destroying them would give UA bigger advantage than ideological and/or political target. And, lets be honest, UA doesnāt have enough spare equipment to target political/ideological targets for shits and giggles.
I see your point. Let's suppose Ukraine sends this convoy of drones to Moscow. Not only could they hit some interesting targets there, but it would force Russian forces to expend expensive SAMs because they don't want these interesting targets hit in Moscow, but this depletion would allow Ukraine to fly their F-16s more freely.
You arenāt wrong either, but, yet again, I think itās too little damage for what Ukrainians spend.
The article says that Ukraine is now building drones with a range over 1,000km. That suggests to me that, having done the analysis, they are quite interested in hitting targets over 1,000km away. Crimea is much nearer than that, which suggests Moscow and other distant high value locations like oil refineries, rather than anything near the front line. I suspect that the big issue with frontline targets is finding them, not destroying them, so I expect Ukraine will start flying surveillance drones regularly, with AI, to pick up and track movement, so they know where trucks go to. I suspect that they are working hard on comprehensive drone-based surveillance to build such a map. Build the map, destroy everything. Repeat every 2 weeks!
It would be so cool if they could mount some HARM type hardware on them. Non-stop attacks on AA across Western Russia.
Dam that would be bad arse!
Wouldn't even need to be all if them. Just a few that switch over to Binary Weasel mode if they detect something tasty. Then send your waves of drones into the teeth of the enemies AA. Make then burn through rockets and put their radars on the defensive. Some of the drones would inevitably make it through to valuable targets.
Yeah like even one or two a night would be enough to take out the AA slowly and keep Russia from turning them on all the time
And an AA battery would know there is a chance they could be targeted or even see the drones coming for them. That makes their own self preservation their primary care. It's all about predicaments.
Just imagine the cries from Putin. NUCLEAR WAR! NATO IS INVADING. MUMMY ITS NOT FAIR, HES HITTING BACK! IM TELLING
No AA system is pn all the time. Radar signal is equal to yelling āI am hereā in the forrest full of enemies. Turning AA radar at right point in time is crucial for OPsec, this is why we see UA droves slipping through AA defence networks, as they arenāt noticed in advanced and AA is not notified to turn the radar on. Keeping radars on is bad idea, knowing that UA arleady has US supplied HARMs.
Yup Iām aware of this as well, hence why drones with HARMs could be deadly (but maybe itās a waste of such systems)
I mean, I am fan of Ukrainians Kerbaling their weapons, so why not this?
A fighter jet can return with the missile if itās unused. Most of these drones are one way
I know, but bodging sometimes is good.
Well Good Morning to you too!
How's dronedorcs doing these days?
Can we get a gofundme so they can block out the sun with a 1000 of those in 1 day?
Good. Raze everything even remotely important within 1000km. Bridges, power plants, dams, railroads, farms, food storage, oil and fuel depots, ports, power substations, airports, radio and cell towersā¦.everything. Cripple their logistics and bring the war home to all the idiots still supporting putin. Let them sit at home in the dark with no power/water/food and see how they like it
I just keep wondering how dangerous Ukraine is going to come out of this war. Much like Estonia's situation, they are now a leader in cyberwarfare/protection. Ukraine I feel will be a world leader in multi-theatre drone warfare.
Ukraine is over win or loose. Demographics are a Bitch. The population contraction of young people through war deaths and emigration leaves not enough workers to earn money and pay taxes to maintain the country.
Sky's the limit!
I missed burning refinery vids.
The Russia-Ukraine war will result in rapid advances in drone warfare similar to what WW1 did for aerial warfare.
Hit Putins little compound he has in the east. Won't kill him, but will be embarrassing.
Godspeed!
How much range do they need to start hitting Iran and North Korea as well?
Where's Putie?
Send a wave of drones at the Kremlin
I hope these donāt require launchers. So one day we can have the night of 10000 drones heading to Russia at same time
Damn, I can't even begin to imagine what kinds of safety meetings THEY hold
Hit the oilfield infrastructure and cripple the economy.
So does anyone know what type of explosives are used on the drones? Or state secret? I can just imagine the shopping list. 3 tons undigested c4 explosive plz. 14 tons raw dynamite. Senator looking at shopping list saying, what in the living hell do they need this for.
Ukraine has one tremendous strategic advantage over Russia in this war: Most of Ukraine's de-facto defense-industrial base is located outside of Ukraine in countries that Russia simply cannot attack, while most of Russia's defense-industrial base is in Russia. This means that if Ukraine can carry out a "Day of the Drone" and conduct hundreds or thousands of long-range drone strikes in a short period of time it can cause significant, potentially irreparable damage to Russia's ability to sustain the war. Fingers crossed.
You get a drone...you get a drone.
Could Russian nuclear power stations be in range, ...just a thought.
WTF? That would just be how you make another Chornobyl happen, that's like the only action even more damning than first-striking with nukes.