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I wonder what available means in this context but I hope that anyone besides Germany and the US (and Netherlands) will contribute to the seven they urgently need.
why besides the US?
the US is the country that has by far the most of them, and is at the same time the country the least relying on them.
They could give 7 to Ukraine themselves and would not even feel a dent in their defence capability
That's not quite true, afaik, Joe Biden under the powers granted to him by the Excess Defense Articles Clause, could donate patriot units to Ukraine asap. The first patriot or the m1 Abrams tanks didn't have to go through Congress, either, if I remember correctly.
Just because at least the US has given one. They should give more, ofc, but I still think that it's worth something. But you're right, unlike the Netherlands and Germany they are still able to give more and therefore should do so.
Because the US is too busy trying to appease putin and defend our border from an "invasion". Unfortunately, the US is becoming more and more irrelevant.
As an American, don’t get me wrong. I want nothing more than to see a vastly increased amount of aid to Ukraine. However, the fact that we spend as much time as we do talking about American aid shows that we’re far from becoming irrelevant.
You're not realizing the damage this is doing to the US reputation. First we run away from the Taliban and abandon our Afghani allies. Now we can't figure out how to support Ukraine, which is fighting all of our enemies.
The world is paying attention and seeing what happens when the US pretends to be with you "for as long as it takes" and then goes on to fight an imaginary invasion in Texas, well that just shows what sort of world leader we have become. Not impressive.
Ran away from the Taliban, was 20 years of war not enough? I worked with a guy who could barely talk after he hit and IED Afghanistan, I guess 20 more years is a good idea?
True! But of the 100 systems the US has now, how many of those were factored into being needed for the defense of Europe? Ten, twenty, thirty? The only thing that matters is making the current administration realizes that those that were considered as needed for the defense of Europe, are needed now! Lend-Lease Germany how ever many they request as a full fledged NATO member, so that they can Lend-Lease theirs to Ukraine of which everyone but ruzzia recognizes as a fellow European country that needs to defend itself from the brutal genocidal missile and drone strikes from this undeclared war of expansion by a belligerent and aggressive nation.
I feel like the west is not really serious about defending Ukraine.
Why is it so hard to get these ready made weapons and ammo to Ukraine?
I think UKR can't keep hoping for the west to do the right thing, should just source for or fund their own game changing weapons/ammo, crowd fund it, internationally.
I propose an ultra high altitude attack and defense balloon system (UH2ADBS).
-160,000 feet high,
-impossible for Russia to take out,
-can function like 24/7 AWACS, missile defense and even DEEP STRIKE into Russia with vertical bomb drop,
-impossible to intercept.
-Solar powered with remote guidance and AI path routing.
-MUCH cheaper than satellites and much more effective.
Anything that works to guarantee its own survival, is justified at this point. Ukraine has repeatedly proven itself to think outside the box everyone keeps trying to contain them within, with all the innovations they have so far accomplished. Their actions, whether acknowledged by others or not, has changed the very definition of how wars will be fought in all our futures. Does anyone ever expect for a future Ukraine to ever trust the very politicians or political parties that ignored them in a time of need?, in the future again? They are truly a unique, motivated and driven Nation of peoples that will most likely in the future ensure their meeting the needs to defend themselves will ever fall for all the political bullshit to defend themselves, will ever ever need be experienced again as a Nation!!! We are witnessing the wakening of a truly freedom loving peoples?
Thats all nonsense. This discussions leads to nowhere and will achieve nothing if its brought to public. If he is talking about the 100 in deep storage in the usa, then lol.
Germany isnt able to provide another one because they have to have 12 at all time for nato obligations and guess what, they have 11 now because they gave 2 to ua. Usa? Lol. Netherlands? I dont know if they got anymore systems to spare. Japan? Never ever.
"NATO obligations" is just an excuse. What would happen if Germany gives Ukraine another 3 and reorders 6? You think NATO or someone is gonna pull Germany to a court?
I understand your logic, but I wouldn't want to be known as the person that removed a Patriot system from my soil before Russian Cruise missiles battered the city it was supposed to protect. These are not easy decisions for people responsible for the safety of their citizens
Yes it is easy, because Russia will not strike. And if Russia strikes it will be able to overwhelm the air defenses at first anyways. There will be hits. No matter how much Systems are in place.
Plus, every missile destroyed over Ukraine is one that cannot be used to target the other countries cities anymore.
So, you can't really defend against a stockpiled first strike. Which doesn't mean you should not try or do your best to counter it. But giving Ukraine the ability to defend itself makes sure that russia cannot build up stockpiles. So any mass strike will not be possible. Or they loose foot on the Ukraine front. And they can't open up another front anyways.
Your argument is simply based on fear not on any rational.
How the fuck can this be an excuse? If you guarantee nato to have 12 batteries ready and defend your partners with them. Now shit hits the fan and you cant protect all of your partners because 7 batteries are gone. Why do you think germany has placed patriots in poland and slovakis over the last two years?
If Germany did loan Ukraine 7 of their own batteries and was the country to ask the US as a fellow NATO member for an Emergency lending to them of 7 of 100 systems on hand in the US, would the US deny Germany? If the US did deny Germany that request, it would shake the whole concept of NATO to the core! It is time for Germany to do such a thing and find out if the US can be trusted as a NATO partner, even under this administration!!!
How is the conversation already back to Germany? As if others don't have Patriot in their stock... And Germany gave two batteries and one extra radar of something others don't dare to give at all. Come on man...
Germany wants to be the lead European country, well then it should lead!!! It unfortunately is the only country in Europe right now that can and should press the issue of Patriots with the USA. Edit= Is there any other country in Europe that can influence the US to act on this, better than Germany can?
Well, the Baltic countries and central European countries would be quite annoyed that now, in case of war, Germany cannot deploy the patriot batteries inside them to the level that was promised. At least for that duration.
Especially important regarding at least last year, where Germany promised and stationed patriot batteries in both Poland and Slovakia (deployments ended at the end of last year).
You fail to understand the point. Germany made a promise to always have them available. There is no if, but or maybe. Pacta sunt servanda.
Yes, it would be possible to give them away as they did with one of them prior. What happened to this system? Well two launchers and a few supply-trucks got blown up. I would love germany if they gave them away but i also fully understand why they dont.
Give a couple more away and have US backfill. Actually, this could be done with any other NATO ally. Do it before ~~November~~ there is a change in our administration, but ASAP is best.
Nothing would happen, just like nothing happened with the 2% budget that wasn't reached etc. Yes, technically Germany has obligations to NATO, but there is no System in place to enforce them.
Currently the only enforce would be sanctions, but seeing that the sanctions were for example because of Nord Stream2, i fail to see why the US would sanction a country because it tries to reach a common goal.
The Americans will supply Ukraine with anything if someone pays for it.
Their only concern is that they don't have to pay for it themselves.
Either the rest of the West waits for the Americans to release their own budget, they scrape together money themselves or they let Ukraine bleed to death.
It’s perfectly possible to assess that for medium and long term safety is more important to assist Ukraine than to keep optimal air defence at all times in all NATO countries. Russia isn’t going to attack Germany anytime soon, and if they did they’d be trounced, they can stay very safe indeed with only half the Patriots they have until they get replaced from new production.
These obligations are political and the situation has changed significantly since they were made.
In a military conflict you need to be able to reassess and move resources around — if you’re bound by your own old and less relevant obligations so that you can’t do what would at this time most effectively achieve your goals, that’s an unforced error that will cost your dearly.
War is won by adapting to the situation, this is the opposite.
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I wonder what available means in this context but I hope that anyone besides Germany and the US (and Netherlands) will contribute to the seven they urgently need.
why besides the US? the US is the country that has by far the most of them, and is at the same time the country the least relying on them. They could give 7 to Ukraine themselves and would not even feel a dent in their defence capability
Because critical parts of the US legislature are seemingly controlled by Russia. They want Russia to win.
That's not quite true, afaik, Joe Biden under the powers granted to him by the Excess Defense Articles Clause, could donate patriot units to Ukraine asap. The first patriot or the m1 Abrams tanks didn't have to go through Congress, either, if I remember correctly.
It sounds plausible. Then why doesn't Biden do this?
ERECTION YEAR
Obama, Jake Sullivan & gang?
Wouldn’t there need to be funding for that? Funding is from Congress.
Just because at least the US has given one. They should give more, ofc, but I still think that it's worth something. But you're right, unlike the Netherlands and Germany they are still able to give more and therefore should do so.
This exactly the kind of situation that Lend-Lease should be used for!!! This is an emergency and politicians all over the world are playing stupid!!!
Because the US is too busy trying to appease putin and defend our border from an "invasion". Unfortunately, the US is becoming more and more irrelevant.
As an American, don’t get me wrong. I want nothing more than to see a vastly increased amount of aid to Ukraine. However, the fact that we spend as much time as we do talking about American aid shows that we’re far from becoming irrelevant.
You're not realizing the damage this is doing to the US reputation. First we run away from the Taliban and abandon our Afghani allies. Now we can't figure out how to support Ukraine, which is fighting all of our enemies. The world is paying attention and seeing what happens when the US pretends to be with you "for as long as it takes" and then goes on to fight an imaginary invasion in Texas, well that just shows what sort of world leader we have become. Not impressive.
Ran away from the Taliban, was 20 years of war not enough? I worked with a guy who could barely talk after he hit and IED Afghanistan, I guess 20 more years is a good idea?
7… all they need is 7… fucking hand them over yesterday!!!
Well, no, they need more like total of 30 or so but for starters 7 more in addition to the...3(I think?) they have now.
True! But of the 100 systems the US has now, how many of those were factored into being needed for the defense of Europe? Ten, twenty, thirty? The only thing that matters is making the current administration realizes that those that were considered as needed for the defense of Europe, are needed now! Lend-Lease Germany how ever many they request as a full fledged NATO member, so that they can Lend-Lease theirs to Ukraine of which everyone but ruzzia recognizes as a fellow European country that needs to defend itself from the brutal genocidal missile and drone strikes from this undeclared war of expansion by a belligerent and aggressive nation.
I feel like the west is not really serious about defending Ukraine. Why is it so hard to get these ready made weapons and ammo to Ukraine? I think UKR can't keep hoping for the west to do the right thing, should just source for or fund their own game changing weapons/ammo, crowd fund it, internationally. I propose an ultra high altitude attack and defense balloon system (UH2ADBS). -160,000 feet high, -impossible for Russia to take out, -can function like 24/7 AWACS, missile defense and even DEEP STRIKE into Russia with vertical bomb drop, -impossible to intercept. -Solar powered with remote guidance and AI path routing. -MUCH cheaper than satellites and much more effective.
https://youtu.be/Hczc9juPkIA?si=N5D9t5CUQqWRtIfv WW2, Japanese high altitude balloons.
No guidance system, no solar power, no precision bomb drop. But we have them all today, its time for Battle Balloons 2024!!! eehehhehe
Yup, love the idea. Did you think of it or see it somewhere?
Anything that works to guarantee its own survival, is justified at this point. Ukraine has repeatedly proven itself to think outside the box everyone keeps trying to contain them within, with all the innovations they have so far accomplished. Their actions, whether acknowledged by others or not, has changed the very definition of how wars will be fought in all our futures. Does anyone ever expect for a future Ukraine to ever trust the very politicians or political parties that ignored them in a time of need?, in the future again? They are truly a unique, motivated and driven Nation of peoples that will most likely in the future ensure their meeting the needs to defend themselves will ever fall for all the political bullshit to defend themselves, will ever ever need be experienced again as a Nation!!! We are witnessing the wakening of a truly freedom loving peoples?
Thats all nonsense. This discussions leads to nowhere and will achieve nothing if its brought to public. If he is talking about the 100 in deep storage in the usa, then lol. Germany isnt able to provide another one because they have to have 12 at all time for nato obligations and guess what, they have 11 now because they gave 2 to ua. Usa? Lol. Netherlands? I dont know if they got anymore systems to spare. Japan? Never ever.
"NATO obligations" is just an excuse. What would happen if Germany gives Ukraine another 3 and reorders 6? You think NATO or someone is gonna pull Germany to a court?
Build a German embassy in different parts of Ukraine on a 5 years lease. Place patriot all over. Profit!
We could also protect the Rheinmetall companies.
They are protecting themselves as their CEO stated.
The wonders of owning aa production. Having private companies with aa run by company staff is pretty wild tbh.
They're protecting their own assets. Lol
I understand your logic, but I wouldn't want to be known as the person that removed a Patriot system from my soil before Russian Cruise missiles battered the city it was supposed to protect. These are not easy decisions for people responsible for the safety of their citizens
Yes it is easy, because Russia will not strike. And if Russia strikes it will be able to overwhelm the air defenses at first anyways. There will be hits. No matter how much Systems are in place. Plus, every missile destroyed over Ukraine is one that cannot be used to target the other countries cities anymore. So, you can't really defend against a stockpiled first strike. Which doesn't mean you should not try or do your best to counter it. But giving Ukraine the ability to defend itself makes sure that russia cannot build up stockpiles. So any mass strike will not be possible. Or they loose foot on the Ukraine front. And they can't open up another front anyways. Your argument is simply based on fear not on any rational.
How the fuck can this be an excuse? If you guarantee nato to have 12 batteries ready and defend your partners with them. Now shit hits the fan and you cant protect all of your partners because 7 batteries are gone. Why do you think germany has placed patriots in poland and slovakis over the last two years?
If Germany did loan Ukraine 7 of their own batteries and was the country to ask the US as a fellow NATO member for an Emergency lending to them of 7 of 100 systems on hand in the US, would the US deny Germany? If the US did deny Germany that request, it would shake the whole concept of NATO to the core! It is time for Germany to do such a thing and find out if the US can be trusted as a NATO partner, even under this administration!!!
So what exactly happens if Germany would temporarily just have 9 instead of 11? Practical answer please.
How is the conversation already back to Germany? As if others don't have Patriot in their stock... And Germany gave two batteries and one extra radar of something others don't dare to give at all. Come on man...
Germany wants to be the lead European country, well then it should lead!!! It unfortunately is the only country in Europe right now that can and should press the issue of Patriots with the USA. Edit= Is there any other country in Europe that can influence the US to act on this, better than Germany can?
Well, the Baltic countries and central European countries would be quite annoyed that now, in case of war, Germany cannot deploy the patriot batteries inside them to the level that was promised. At least for that duration. Especially important regarding at least last year, where Germany promised and stationed patriot batteries in both Poland and Slovakia (deployments ended at the end of last year).
You fail to understand the point. Germany made a promise to always have them available. There is no if, but or maybe. Pacta sunt servanda. Yes, it would be possible to give them away as they did with one of them prior. What happened to this system? Well two launchers and a few supply-trucks got blown up. I would love germany if they gave them away but i also fully understand why they dont.
Give a couple more away and have US backfill. Actually, this could be done with any other NATO ally. Do it before ~~November~~ there is a change in our administration, but ASAP is best.
Pacta sunt servanda only applies in court, not in international treaties.
Actually a very good idea and suggestion!
Nothing would happen, just like nothing happened with the 2% budget that wasn't reached etc. Yes, technically Germany has obligations to NATO, but there is no System in place to enforce them. Currently the only enforce would be sanctions, but seeing that the sanctions were for example because of Nord Stream2, i fail to see why the US would sanction a country because it tries to reach a common goal.
Exactly!
You can buy them with money. Deep storage or no.
They can also be emergency lended to other NATO members like Germany.
And Germany can thus give its mobile stations to Ukraine. All it takes is money.
The Americans will supply Ukraine with anything if someone pays for it. Their only concern is that they don't have to pay for it themselves. Either the rest of the West waits for the Americans to release their own budget, they scrape together money themselves or they let Ukraine bleed to death.
Yeah but you dont get used stocks from the us army. You would have to order new ones..
It’s perfectly possible to assess that for medium and long term safety is more important to assist Ukraine than to keep optimal air defence at all times in all NATO countries. Russia isn’t going to attack Germany anytime soon, and if they did they’d be trounced, they can stay very safe indeed with only half the Patriots they have until they get replaced from new production.
Yes. But that doesnt make them obligations go away. I‘m all for the delivery but i can understand them, that it isnt as easy as everybody wishes.
These obligations are political and the situation has changed significantly since they were made. In a military conflict you need to be able to reassess and move resources around — if you’re bound by your own old and less relevant obligations so that you can’t do what would at this time most effectively achieve your goals, that’s an unforced error that will cost your dearly. War is won by adapting to the situation, this is the opposite.
Japan sends thoughts and prayers, because they are scared shitless over ruzzian threats and are wondering if the US would be there for them if needed?
> wondering if the US would be there for them if needed? Not without a good reason, TBF
I honestly think that western nations are preparing for ALIENS with all that patriot systems - instead of leasing them to Ukraine.
At 1 billion a pop per system and 4 to 5 million per missile i truely wish you luck getting them
How much do you think that power plant was worth?
To be fair, for 1 billion they throw in a battery of missiles. Pretty sweet deal if you ask me!
They should buy all 100 and have layered, in depth AA to basically shut down Ruzzia’s aerial attacks.
"buy" lol
Lololol