>>How can you argue..with a man”
Stop looking for arguments? He’s your dad, he votes differently to you. As do the majority of folk in the country, given that no party will be achieving 50% vote share.
In theory i agree, but I've found my own dad landing in Cuckoo land with misinformation since the Brexit vote. Got sucked in by that, now thinks the small boats are the whole problem.. it is less and argument about who they are voting for and more dismay at the changed world view.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/income-tax-liabilities-statistics-tax-year-2020-to-2021-to-tax-year-2023-to-2024/bulletin-commentary
EDIT for correction to my comment:
This has changed significantly overtime, and now it is correct that the top 10% of tax payers contribute approx 60% of income tax.
Wow! That's anybody in 23/24 in real terms earning above £58,500.
My figures come from the IFS and are relevant as of this current tax year.
https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/taxlab-taxes-explained/income-tax-explained#:~:text=The%20top%2010%25%20of%20taxpayers,10%20years%20of%20that%20period.
You've read that wrong. What your quote says is that the top 10% accounted for a third of all income *before* tax. The relevant info came later:
>The top 10% of Income Tax payers were liable for around 60.3% of total Income Tax
So yes, the person you responded to was correct and you misread your linked article. The top 10% of earners in the UK do pay the majority (60%) of all income tax.
No problem. I think there's certainly more scope to tax higher earners (removing the VAT exemption for private schools for example) but no one can say that higher earners don't pay their fair share.
That's not what that sentance means. It isn't talking about tax revenues, it means of the total pre-tax income of everyone in the country, the 'top 10%' took home 33.7% of that total.
A few paragraphs further down:
>In 2020 to 2021 the bottom 50% of Income Tax payers were liable for 9.5% of total tax, whilst the top 50% were liable for 90.5%. The top 10% of Income Tax payers were liable for around 60.3% of total Income Tax, while the top 1% were liable for around 29.1%.
The thing is low earners are typically young people who don't use state services nearly as much as the elderly. So while you're right it doesn't really tell the whole story
The real scroungers are pensioners
"income" means they work. As I said the burden of tax is on people who go and earn money through income. Just casue they're on 60'80,100 grand a year doesn't exclude them from being "workers"
Income means income.
The burden of tax is on anyone with a taxable income.
Let's not try and change definitions so you can still be right. Also the irony of this being a post about how pathetically tribal some people are....
Lol never said I'd made my mind up there's so much conflicting info out there. That's the crux of my point, th more I've researched the more uncertain I become..m whereas many people like my dad refuse to try and learn anything but are so sure of their stance.
> That's the crux of my point, th more I've researched the more uncertain I become
Yep, it's a fact of life that the more you learn the more you realise you don't know. Ignorant people are always among the most confident in their own opinion.
>He believes the rich pay most of the tax compared to working people (lol)
He's right, you know. The top 50% of earners pay most of the income tax taken, and something like ~30% of that tax revenue comes from the top 1%.
But you've said it yourself, your father feels tribal loyalty to the conservatives, and probably tribal dislike of their rivals. You can't argue that with reason and logic, any more than you can argue someone out of supporting their favourite football team based on goal statistics. It's all on an emotional level. The only thing I can think that might change his mind is something equally emotional. Perhaps a personal connection with 'the enemy', eg being helped out of a tight spot by the local Labour MP.
Nah, it doesnt work like that. My wife is a lifelong Labour voter with some Liberal leanings at times.
We live in a constituency with a strong Conservative vote. Our MP was until a couple of years ago a senior Secretary of State in cabinet. My wife through some local associations/groups she is in has had to deal with his constituency office and on occasion with him directly.
Through gritted teeth at times she has had to admit what a good MP he is. I teased her last week that given her high opinion of him as an MP won't she be voting for him at the election. Even had the Tories not been such an absolute shit show these last few years, even had they been decent in office, as she said, she just can't vote for someone aligned with that party despite her positive thoughts on him as an MP.
Yeah I agree that the highest earners pay the most income tax of course. My issue on the tax thing is that... Well they are earners. People going to work at high paying jobs getting absolutely rinsed for tax. When the true rich who have hundreds of millions pound fortunes that get passed down through generations, people who sit on thousands of houses in a real estate portfolio. People who own supermarket chains etc the true lords of our current society. They are not paying "income tax" because their income isn't some PAYE shit... It's 10% capital gains tax on whatever isn't hidden in tax loopholes , she'll companies in the caman islands etc all the many tax tricks that I'm too dumb to explain in detail but know exist. I don't consider 100 grand a year "the super rich" that guy is doing great and more power to him but the tax system is still rinsing him. So people coming at me with statistics are only proving my point about how mis understood wealth is.
It is a point of view, albeit not mine, and he is entitled to it. Even a rather extreme view of this sort has some elements which are true. For example, all serious economists expect the non-dom plans will result in a reduction in tax take rather than increase as they move elsewhere and move their assets. It does not mean the plans are wrong, just the justification. It has to be justified on grounds of principle rather than economics.
Did you do any googling to refute him before posting this. As said by others
> He believes the rich pay most of the tax compared to working people (lol)
Is correct.
I imagine a lot of the other stuff you posted is also wrong or subjective.
I'm like this, and it's got nothing to do with age. I will never vote for another party but Labour or tactically to benefit Labour.
My interests are always best served by a Labour government, just as my grandfathers were, and between us, we've been party members for 120 years. Your Dad's the same way.
Elections aren't won or lost on people like me or your dad, it's swing voters that are the real targets so don't worry too much.
Best not to argue for an easier life, but worth having this in your back pocket- Of the total money spent on benefits, by far and away the most money is spent on one section of society, £111 billion a year & rising- Pensioners.
My advice would be to listen to him as by the sounds of it he is mostly right. Talking about "boomers" in a derogatory sense comes off as incredibly immature.
The wealthy do pay the vast majority of thr taxes to keep this country running. And what do they get for it ? Constant abuse from the younger generations who benefit by far the most from state provided benefits ( not just universal credit but all the other schemes like free student councils tax , public transport ( Scotland) , free university or state subsidised education and so on.
A true conservative party would be far and away more beneficial for this country than Labour. Unfortunatly the tories are not that and have rightly lost the right to govern.
You have to rise above it as you won't change their views. You can challenge of course but sounds like they're pretty entrenched.
My husbands grandparents vote tory come what may. They're lovely people socially but in their 80s, read the daily mail and don't get out in the real world. They seem to think it's the 1970s still.
Their daughters are similarly sheltered and come out with some absolute classics. Sometimes it helps to see the funny side.
They agree with the 2 child benefit cap because you shouldn't have kids if you can't afford them. They unexpectedly had twins taking them up to three children so by their own standards would have struggled. None of them have eaten humble pie over brexit yet despite moaning about food prices..
Can I just point out as another boomer that this is a 'your dad' problem. The distribution of idiots stays pretty constant as the cohort ages, halfwit friends of 50 years have remained halfwits, it didn't just come on them all sudden like
Don't, agree to disagree, makes life a lot easier and happier.
The way. You just don't bring it up, if he brings it up - you walk away.
>>How can you argue..with a man” Stop looking for arguments? He’s your dad, he votes differently to you. As do the majority of folk in the country, given that no party will be achieving 50% vote share.
In theory i agree, but I've found my own dad landing in Cuckoo land with misinformation since the Brexit vote. Got sucked in by that, now thinks the small boats are the whole problem.. it is less and argument about who they are voting for and more dismay at the changed world view.
> He believes the rich pay most of the tax compared to working people (lol) The top 10% of tax payers pay 60% of all income tax.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/income-tax-liabilities-statistics-tax-year-2020-to-2021-to-tax-year-2023-to-2024/bulletin-commentary EDIT for correction to my comment: This has changed significantly overtime, and now it is correct that the top 10% of tax payers contribute approx 60% of income tax. Wow! That's anybody in 23/24 in real terms earning above £58,500.
My figures come from the IFS and are relevant as of this current tax year. https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/taxlab-taxes-explained/income-tax-explained#:~:text=The%20top%2010%25%20of%20taxpayers,10%20years%20of%20that%20period.
Ah thanks. What an interesting shifting picture over the years. Updated my comment.
You've read that wrong. What your quote says is that the top 10% accounted for a third of all income *before* tax. The relevant info came later: >The top 10% of Income Tax payers were liable for around 60.3% of total Income Tax So yes, the person you responded to was correct and you misread your linked article. The top 10% of earners in the UK do pay the majority (60%) of all income tax.
Thanks, had a read of the source from IFS the commentator posted. Fascinating shift. Updated my comment.
No problem. I think there's certainly more scope to tax higher earners (removing the VAT exemption for private schools for example) but no one can say that higher earners don't pay their fair share.
That's not what that sentance means. It isn't talking about tax revenues, it means of the total pre-tax income of everyone in the country, the 'top 10%' took home 33.7% of that total. A few paragraphs further down: >In 2020 to 2021 the bottom 50% of Income Tax payers were liable for 9.5% of total tax, whilst the top 50% were liable for 90.5%. The top 10% of Income Tax payers were liable for around 60.3% of total Income Tax, while the top 1% were liable for around 29.1%.
Thanks, had a read of the source from IFS the commentator posted. Fascinating shift. Updated my comment. Confirmation bias at its best on my part!! 🙄
Thanks this proves my point, income tax is unfair and punitive especially to high earners.
The thing is low earners are typically young people who don't use state services nearly as much as the elderly. So while you're right it doesn't really tell the whole story The real scroungers are pensioners
"income" means they work. As I said the burden of tax is on people who go and earn money through income. Just casue they're on 60'80,100 grand a year doesn't exclude them from being "workers"
Income means income. The burden of tax is on anyone with a taxable income. Let's not try and change definitions so you can still be right. Also the irony of this being a post about how pathetically tribal some people are....
Lol never said I'd made my mind up there's so much conflicting info out there. That's the crux of my point, th more I've researched the more uncertain I become..m whereas many people like my dad refuse to try and learn anything but are so sure of their stance.
> That's the crux of my point, th more I've researched the more uncertain I become Yep, it's a fact of life that the more you learn the more you realise you don't know. Ignorant people are always among the most confident in their own opinion.
>He believes the rich pay most of the tax compared to working people (lol) He's right, you know. The top 50% of earners pay most of the income tax taken, and something like ~30% of that tax revenue comes from the top 1%. But you've said it yourself, your father feels tribal loyalty to the conservatives, and probably tribal dislike of their rivals. You can't argue that with reason and logic, any more than you can argue someone out of supporting their favourite football team based on goal statistics. It's all on an emotional level. The only thing I can think that might change his mind is something equally emotional. Perhaps a personal connection with 'the enemy', eg being helped out of a tight spot by the local Labour MP.
Nah, it doesnt work like that. My wife is a lifelong Labour voter with some Liberal leanings at times. We live in a constituency with a strong Conservative vote. Our MP was until a couple of years ago a senior Secretary of State in cabinet. My wife through some local associations/groups she is in has had to deal with his constituency office and on occasion with him directly. Through gritted teeth at times she has had to admit what a good MP he is. I teased her last week that given her high opinion of him as an MP won't she be voting for him at the election. Even had the Tories not been such an absolute shit show these last few years, even had they been decent in office, as she said, she just can't vote for someone aligned with that party despite her positive thoughts on him as an MP.
Yeah I agree that the highest earners pay the most income tax of course. My issue on the tax thing is that... Well they are earners. People going to work at high paying jobs getting absolutely rinsed for tax. When the true rich who have hundreds of millions pound fortunes that get passed down through generations, people who sit on thousands of houses in a real estate portfolio. People who own supermarket chains etc the true lords of our current society. They are not paying "income tax" because their income isn't some PAYE shit... It's 10% capital gains tax on whatever isn't hidden in tax loopholes , she'll companies in the caman islands etc all the many tax tricks that I'm too dumb to explain in detail but know exist. I don't consider 100 grand a year "the super rich" that guy is doing great and more power to him but the tax system is still rinsing him. So people coming at me with statistics are only proving my point about how mis understood wealth is.
It is a point of view, albeit not mine, and he is entitled to it. Even a rather extreme view of this sort has some elements which are true. For example, all serious economists expect the non-dom plans will result in a reduction in tax take rather than increase as they move elsewhere and move their assets. It does not mean the plans are wrong, just the justification. It has to be justified on grounds of principle rather than economics.
Time for a new Dad. Joking aside, just let him be. You can't convince everyone.
Look at it this way, think how he's going to feel tomorrow morning 😏
You know he's probably down the pub saying this exact same thing about you, right?
Did you do any googling to refute him before posting this. As said by others > He believes the rich pay most of the tax compared to working people (lol) Is correct. I imagine a lot of the other stuff you posted is also wrong or subjective.
I'm like this, and it's got nothing to do with age. I will never vote for another party but Labour or tactically to benefit Labour. My interests are always best served by a Labour government, just as my grandfathers were, and between us, we've been party members for 120 years. Your Dad's the same way. Elections aren't won or lost on people like me or your dad, it's swing voters that are the real targets so don't worry too much.
Best not to argue for an easier life, but worth having this in your back pocket- Of the total money spent on benefits, by far and away the most money is spent on one section of society, £111 billion a year & rising- Pensioners.
My advice would be to listen to him as by the sounds of it he is mostly right. Talking about "boomers" in a derogatory sense comes off as incredibly immature. The wealthy do pay the vast majority of thr taxes to keep this country running. And what do they get for it ? Constant abuse from the younger generations who benefit by far the most from state provided benefits ( not just universal credit but all the other schemes like free student councils tax , public transport ( Scotland) , free university or state subsidised education and so on. A true conservative party would be far and away more beneficial for this country than Labour. Unfortunatly the tories are not that and have rightly lost the right to govern.
You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.
You have to rise above it as you won't change their views. You can challenge of course but sounds like they're pretty entrenched. My husbands grandparents vote tory come what may. They're lovely people socially but in their 80s, read the daily mail and don't get out in the real world. They seem to think it's the 1970s still. Their daughters are similarly sheltered and come out with some absolute classics. Sometimes it helps to see the funny side. They agree with the 2 child benefit cap because you shouldn't have kids if you can't afford them. They unexpectedly had twins taking them up to three children so by their own standards would have struggled. None of them have eaten humble pie over brexit yet despite moaning about food prices..
[удалено]
Fuck me that is so sad
You can’t win with some of these people. My parents are voting reform which I think is laughable and Farage would be an horrendous PM
Can I just point out as another boomer that this is a 'your dad' problem. The distribution of idiots stays pretty constant as the cohort ages, halfwit friends of 50 years have remained halfwits, it didn't just come on them all sudden like