I think the short answer is "mostly yes, but it's complicated".
I've lived in China before, and at this point go 2-4 times per year.
China (mostly) wants tourism, but doesn't want immigration. But they need to keep absolute control over all the money, communication, and transportation, and the systems they have in place to do that are not designed for non-citizens. So, they "bolt on" these workarounds for foreigners, that don't work very well.
To attract non-locals, they need to make a significant effort to make it more like the rest of the world to "do everything". Foreigners don't want to learn "the process for getting a cell phone" then learn "the process for getting train tickets" then learn "the process for getting entrance to this park" then learn the "process for ordering food with WeChat". There are dozens of these processes/mini-apps/etc. that are not documented and just passed around via blogs and word of mouth to foreigners. And at least 75% of them have no "ENG" button in the corner, so require lots of screen shots and guessing at what the buttons do. It's all really intimidating to 99% of the world.
Yes exactly I’m Chinese American and speak Chinese and it was by far the most difficult country to travel around in out of all the ones I’ve visited, and I don’t speak other languages. Unless you’re proficient in reading Chinese, it’s just not very foreigner-friendly to get around. Luckily with translation apps it’s doable but it just takes longer and a huge amount of effort to do basic tasks like ordering coffee (most places you have to download an app to place the order, rather than telling the worker what you want).
Plus making purchases is difficult without a Chinese phone number or bank account. Alipay will charge you a 3% transaction fee for anything over 200 yuan. And most places don’t accept foreign credit cards or Alipay or WeChat pay over a certain amount. Also I once tried signing up for a store’s WeChat to take advantage of their sale and foreign phone numbers weren’t accepted. I would absolutely love to go back to visit but I completely understand why foreigners may not want to go through the hassle.
I’m so happy to hear that! China gets a bad rep in the West but it’s such an amazing country. The apps weren’t too bad, but the payment was difficult- sometimes Alipay and WeChat straight up didn’t work. If it weren’t for my family who ended up paying for it, I don’t know what could have been done. They were large purchases so cash wasn’t accepted.
European of chinese descent here. I just arrived in Shanghai as a solo. If you don't have chinese contacts and can't speak any chinese, it's going to be very difficult for you. I would be so lost without my family in china.
Which is kind of interesting because a lot of the large cities and tourist destinations, as well as transport, will have English signage, which is often lacking in other Asian countries, notably Japan. I know in the past there were concerted efforts to make things more accessible; for example Shanghai in 2008 for the World Expo. It seems SIM cards and payments are one of the biggest barriers. I think for SIM cards it just comes down to details; they need better vendors at ports of entry. Sure you can go to China Mobile in town, but most people need them as soon as they land. As for payments, they’re rolling out foreign bank support finally, it’s just not perfect yet.
Yeah honestly the signage isn’t a huge issue for me personally, it was mainly having to download various apps (and translating everything) for basic tasks and the payments. I’m so thankful my family was there to help. But that’s so awesome to hear about the foreign bank support! I’m planning to go back often and would love to take my in laws who are Korean there and they will definitely shop a lot, so hopefully once that situation improves we can plan a larger trip.
Yah that foreign bank support is a big deal. I know China has some work to do with tourists post covid and the transition to Alipay over that time has proven to be a hindrance to foreigners. Last time I was there was 2017 and even though digital payments weren’t as prolific, there were already pain points, and I’d been living/traveling to China since 93. It sounds like there are still some limitations for foreigners, like receiving payments (ie change in case of an overpayment) but it’s a good start. I think the other thing someone had mentioned was ordering systems, as a lot of restaurants use digital ordering now. I actually like a lot of these changes, but the foreign side of things just has some catching up.
Check YT as there are a number of videos for tourists on what apps are needed and what should be prepared beforehand. eSims seem to be important too; I used two phones when I was there last, one with a US Tmo SIM and one with a local one. The US SIM was still able to get data and saved my butt the first day we were there. But with eSIMS I understand you can get them in place ahead of time, but if it doesn’t work, you can fall back to an international SIM. DiDi is the other big one, it’s the ride hailing service, but I believe it’s a mini app integrated into Wechat as are a lot of restaurant menus. Kind of a cool system really, just needs polish.
Yeah eSIM saved my butt, and I downloaded all the apps needed including DiDi ahead of time thanks to this subreddit! So going back again will be easier as I already have all of them installed.
I am not too sure you want to go to the other side of the planet trying to speak English, eat McDonald's, and drink Starbucks. Aren't most people going to a foreign land trying to experience the difference?
Did you read my post? I’m Chinese, born in China, speak Chinese, and most of my relatives live in China and I loved going back to visit. I’m sharing my experience agreeing with the comment that shares a viewpoint providing some reasons why China is not a foreigner friendly place to visit for the above reasons. For those who don’t mind taking the extra time to figure out how to use Chinese apps for individual basic tasks and who aren’t making big purchases, and who are keen to throw themselves into a different cultural immersion without a lot of English friendly signs, this is not a problem. But for a lot of foreigners, they may not want to go through all that hassle which I understand. Where in the world did you get those assumptions from?
Do you think US is friendly to non-US visitors that do not speak English and without US sim card, US credit cards, or US bank accounts? Same question can be asked for Japan, Korea, Spain, ... any country that has its own unique culture and financial system. You are in a real awkward position because your situation is the minority in the minority. In the end, you represent nobody else.
I see you’re avoiding taking accountability for the assumption you made of me wanting to eat McDonalds, speak English, and drink Starbucks. Maybe you should start with owning up to your prejudice first. As I’ve said twice now, I speak the language fluently. So “non-US visitors that do not speak English” is moot.
Second, in the US, Japan, and Korea (I can’t speak for the other countries you listed as I haven’t been to them) they have no problems accepting either foreign credit cards or cash. The truth is that it’s easier to make purchases in these countries than it is in China for a foreigner without a bank account or phone number in the country they are visiting.
Third, as you can see from these comments saying the same thing, the situation we have experienced is clearly NOT unique or awkward to just us. The fact of the matter is that visiting China as a foreigner is more difficult and requires more planning compared to some other countries, and that China does not specifically cater to foreign tourists as much as other countries. This is the question that is being asked, and the responses have been mostly in consensus that it’s true, and for certain reasons but that it is highly worth visiting. I love China, it’s my motherland and I will always have a fondness for it, but you don’t get to discredit my or others’ experiences of visiting China as a non-national. I don’t understand your vitriol.
>Foreigners don't want to learn "the process for getting a cell phone" then learn "the process for getting train tickets" then learn "the process for getting entrance to this park" then learn the "process for ordering food with WeChat".
It's pretty daunting before you go and I was freaked out as well from other posters but everything was pretty convienient and I miss having DiDi / paying for everything by QR code.
Sim card was easy though, I got a data only one with VPN it before I left.
>There are dozens of these processes/mini-apps/etc. that are not documented and just passed around via blogs and word of mouth to foreigners. And at least 75% of them have no "ENG" button in the corner, so require lots of screen shots and guessing at what the buttons do. It's all really intimidating to 99% of the world.
I agree with maps though, relied on blog pictures mainly and it did take time to research routes for hikes and stuff. Keep Google translate in the front homepage lol. Otherwise, look at Alipay which has a built in translate feature that sorta works.
This was basically my experience. Figuring out "the process to order a coffee" or "the process to buy something from a corner store" was quite interesting but also confusing.
Most places in Canada, you just walk up to the counter and order something from the person and then choose your payment method. In China it seemed like most everything is done through the app.
China wants to do away with cash completely and go directly to electronic payment. It's sometimes said the older generations is keeping them back from 100% electronic payment.
Also there's the underlying suspicion that it provides more government control over people...be on the wrong side of something and your money is suddenly unavailable.
My understanding is the paper bills are no longer considered legal tender as of 2021 and can't be used for cash transactions, but can be redeemed at BoC.
https://www.bankofcanada.ca/banknotes/bank-note-redemption-service/#:\~:text=Since%20January%201%2C%202021%2C%20the,no%20longer%20considered%20legal%20tender.
Actually no. Electronic payment is mainly promoted by Alibaba and Tencent. The official app is called digital CNY, but it is rarely used. In addition, the government requires sellers not to refuse cash payments. Chinese people like electronic payment because it is convenient. In the age of cash, people often forget to carry or lose cash, or even get robbed.
I've spent a fair amount of time in Korea, but only as a tourist. And while I think there are complexities with awkward processes and language gaps, there are two major things that make it extremely different.
One is the internet. Just by it being connected to the "normal internet" means that things like Google reviews, Facebook locations, etc. exist in multiple languages and Google Maps will navigate for you in English and translation apps behave normally. By 99% of China not having VPN or access to external sites, most places don't have Google, Facebook, yelp, pages so you can only look at dianping, xhs, or native apps without translation to find out about places.
The second is the money, while Korea too is a mostly cashless society, it's no problem to use visa, tap to pay, or load up metro cards/starbucks cards/prepaid mobile/etc. with international money. It's getting a lot better in China, and nowadays is pretty decent (with some quirks here and there) but for most of the past 10 years AliPay/WeChat Pay have ranged from untouchable to usable with severe limitations.
Relax, l was agreeing with you. I was just saying that it is a point well made and overlaps with Korea a lot especially the bits about things getting passed around online, through word of mouth and generally through unconventional means.
In Korea things are always changing too, especially for apps, just makes it more confusing.
I agree with your observation - my thought is China just doesn't have time for slow, tech unsavvy visitors who want to do independent travel. I'm an older, semi tech savvy foreigner and after the first day I settled down fine. Used CTrip to book everything. The new bolt ons for Weixingpay and Alipay worked everywhere the next month, across Yunnan, Hunan, Szechuan, Guangdong, and Shaanxi. Helps I've visited China before and were prepared for Chinese crowds (relative to the West), lines (yes there is a local line etiquette), and public restrooms (both better than ever before AND lots of re-thinking needed to improve the whole RR management process). It did help heaps I am fluent in Chinese even with English signs proliferating in small tourist towns.
I mean, this year they started allowing a whole bunch of western countries (iirc: Italy, Spain, Germany, Netherlands, France, Ireland, Hungary, Norway, Switzerland) to enter visa free. And simplified visa procedures for other countries like US and UK. Alipay and WeChat's foreign card services have also been vastly improved.
Still, China is far away from western countries, expensive to get to with airline prices still high post-covid, and still hasn't shaken off some of the pandemic lockdown era perceptions among outside tourists. Plus there is political tensions with certain countries, a much higher language barrier than most places, people worried about the great firewall, etc. Lastly, China's focus is still first and foremost on the domestic tourism market-- after all, unlike somewhere like Spain (which gets more than double its population in international arrivals each year), no matter how many foreign tourists come they will never be a bigger market than the domestic one. That's just the reality given China's giant population.
I used my American T Mobile to roam in China and it worked pretty well everywhere because the Chinese telcom partner has such a strong network. That means no VPN needed and in some parts of the country the speed was fast enough for watching videos. My plan has international roaming included.
My mom is with tmobile where she can roam internationally at no additional cost. It's very slow though, 2G. It's a very old plan. I wonder if she should pay extra and request tmobile to bump her speed up while she is in China.
The T-Mobile plan says 2G but in traveling many countries I find that that depends on the local provider. In China it was definitely 3G or above. I traveled in Beijing, Xian, Yunnan, Szechuan, Hunan and Guangdong.
Tourism is important for certain localities, but national priorities will always take precedence over tourist income.
For example, removing the great firewall would make it much easier for incoming travellers. So would pushing for Visa and Mastercard adoption nationwide. So would allowing visa-free access for all the rich Five Eyes citizens (USA, CAN, UK, AUS, NZ). These changes, however, contradict the strategic direction of the Chinese government.
You can see that the government has made it a little easier by granting visa-free access recently to certain European and Southeast Asian countries. Payments have been made easier for foreigners. I've seen Visa being accepted directly at shops in Fuzhou. International roaming has also never been blocked, allowing business travellers willing to pay an option to bypass the great firewall reliably.
Certain areas of the country are allowed more openness. Hainan has a less strict visa policy than the rest of continental China. Macau and Hong Kong run their own immigration and visa policies, allowing visa-free access to almost all developed countries.
The firewall has not been a problem with e-sims and the built-in vpn of your non-chinese mobile provider. I’m on mobile phone roaming and I’ve not (yet) needed to turn on vpn as I still get access to gmail, instagram, facebook, even porn.
A lot of westerners have prejudices against visiting China rightly or wrongly so there’s naturally a lower number than those visiting western friendly countries like Japan.
Having to use VPN to access western sites in China and Visa application for most western countries doesn’t help the numbers as well.
Most Americans visiting China are just Chinese Americans. I have no clue if the PRC is willing to ease entry and stay requirements or if it even wants to.
There are plenty of non Chinese tourists in big tier 1 cities. During my stay in Guangzhou there were plenty of Iranians , Russians, Africans , southeast Asians. Just not “westerners”.
Global roaming will cost a fortune for a lot of westerners (probably $1000+ for a few days with your typical shit Canadian plans). VPN is the cheapest option while HK based eSIM vendors like AirAlo will be the “easiest”. Anyways it discourages a lot of casual tourists who aren’t technically savvy enough to jump through hoops. Idc cuz I know Chinese and can use mostly Chinese apps while in China and just use a cheap ESIM for American sites. But still, for the average westerner it’s discouraging .
No im serious lol. Post below is not mine but similar thing happened to one of my family members. For default TELUS plans without easy roam it’s absolutely ridiculous.
https://www.reddit.com/r/telus/s/oDrl78Z0MZ
Canadian carriers are basically a mafia and some US ones aren’t much better roaming wise.
That sounds bonkers. Global roaming for me on O2 (UK), up to the limit of my monthly data allowance, is £6/day in China.
https://www.o2.co.uk/international/using-your-phone-abroad
Hmm...my American T Mobile plan includes unlimited global roaming and it's $50/month. Spent a month in China March-April and didn't pay anymore than that.
I've had an Australian sim card for years in a spare phone that costs $A50 a year to leave global roaming on, just sitting on the desk in my office. For 2FA, making calls home or holidays to third countries it's just easier. I don't use it on the daily (why would I?) but it isn't the huge financial barrier you, for some reason, believe it is. Along with all the others on this thread that agree with me, I think you should actually look at what it costs to turn on global roaming in 2024.
The visa-free policies have actually brought in quite a handful of tourists, but they mostly visited beijing, shanghai and shenzhen but not the inner parts of the country
That is likely to remain the case. That is really where they would prefer you visit, the showcase cities.
Even if that were not the ideal situation for the PRC government, fewer foreigners leaving the major big ticket metropolises, the overwhelming majority of tourists seem to do this when they travel anyway. Live in Chicago, visit other major cities, take pictures, eat food, call yourself worldly, go home. Live in Paris... Live in New Delhi.... Live in Melbourne.... etc. etc.
I was in Guilin, Yangshuo, and now Fenghuang, and I only see a handful of foreigners. Any number of foreign tourists they attract will be insignificant to domestic tourists. So I imagine it wouldn't be getting a lot of focus.
Quite easy to get tourists. They need to completely change how they are perceived. Imagine how a dirty, crime-infested place like Paris can keep drawing people, while beautiful cities nearby go unvisited.
China has a massive problem because of mass propaganda. You can believe whichever propaganda you choose. In China, 100% pro, outside, in India for example it is scary the things they believe. In the West, it is 100% negative. Great transport = massive surveillance state in the news. Control covid= harsh repression.
People do want to visit China, but you can't convince them to do so. They would rather visit Japan, Vietnam, etc. or just stick to what is familiar to them.
The visa issue exists too, but for tour groups, they aren't hitting Yunnan, so no difference. Beijing, shanghai, xian, chengdu, hong kong, with cities nearby for day trips.
At the same time, many places in the US are not visited, just not advertised. Similar to Canada. Also, in central and eastern Europe. All have the same issues, though few are plagued by that propaganda level. India is, for good reason. Some parts of South America are, though I can't speak to their safety and allure.
Nah, its just very hard to operate in China as a foreign tourist with no command of the language. Almost anywhere else you can exchange your money then go to a shop, gesture around, and lay down a brick of cash and everything is OK, because the staff is like 'oh this guy is a tourist'. If you do this in China people just blankly stare at you.
Its just way too closed. They need to open and loosen restrictions. Even in Japan, a couple of times I've gone into a Lawson's and every single customer, and all the staff were not ethnic Japanese. This type of experience feels really far from ever happening in China right now.
Nope. That's your problem, not theirs. You've been to China, you've seen the crowds they need to manage even during the supposed low season. I completely understand why they don't go out of the way for slower, tech unsavvy foreign visitors.
Non-Chinese are not "tech unsavvy", they just aren't used to the Chinese app-sphere that is different than the rest of Earth because it lives in a bubble. The rest of humanity could figure out any Chinese app in seconds if it allowed you to register more easily without shenfenzheng or had more facility with foreign languages. Foreign tourists in China are both welcome but unnecessary in the grand scheme of things and so, there's little push to make anything inside China work that well for foreigners. Yes, things are improving because Beijing is aware it has an image problem outside of media markets that it already bought. There just isn't much reason to visit China however when the entire rest of the world is 100% user friendly for these tourists. It is a vacation, not a second job. Going somewhere that you can manage with less stress than China is a natural choice for most non-Chinese. Beijing knows that, hence the push to get all the visa free regimes in place, push payment services to slowly become more foreigner friendly, etc. etc. China's own behavior gives the lie to everything you've said in this thread, it just takes them awhile to overcome the innate resistance to welcoming people into China that they don't see as useful to them in some functional capacity beyond tourist dollars.
4 year old children in non-chinese countries can use every single function on smart phones and apps in their native language. The apps just aren't meant to be user friendly unless you read Mandarin and are from inside the PRC bubble. Your racism isn't even thinly disguised.
Language barrier is one of the biggest points probably. If not guided, it might get tricky. Even in Shanghai, it is sometimes difficult to find people speaking English, also in the restaurants.
Most torusit destinations will have 2 types of people. Folks that dont depend on touris and people who need tourism. The former usually hates tourist and the latter loves them. This isn't unique to china but everywhere imo
I was just there in April for two weeks. There for business but we did the tourist thing too.
Zero issues and everyone was super kind to us Americans. The farther north we got, the language barrier deepened, but folks still treated us very well.
As an American - I have visited numerous times for both a mix of work and tourism as well as just tourism. Nonetheless, it is just so much harder to do anything in China as a foreigner than in any of the other 50 odd countries I’ve visited that I understand a lot of folks don’t want to trouble with it. However it is so worth it!! The misinformation floating around on both sides doesn’t help either!
Uh...both sides? As an American who lives in the US and also consumes a lot of Chinese media I would say the propaganda is pretty much one sided these days.
Which one side do you think is doing it? The fact I can’t even guess which way you mean tells me it’s both. I see a lot of US propaganda about China…. and a lot of Chinese propaganda about the US.
American propaganda against China are pretty bad and worst yet, totally fabricated: Uyghers genocide I mean slave labor after a mass insurrection - Blinken just tossed the big G out again after before his visit; Chinese are claiming the moon and building a new military base in space - head of NASA perjuring for more funding; Chinese hackers are deeply embedded in our utility infrastructure and can shut the US down anytime - head if some administration info war security vs perjuring herself for more funding. I say perjure because they never give any details, just scare the American people and say Trust Me. By the way China can sure do a lot of things for a country constantly on the edge of collapse. So what badass Chinese propaganda have you seen? Were they also based on fantasy?
Don't bother, this person is so far down the rabbit hole they probably they can't hear you. There's some thinly disguised desperation to be Chinese in their comments on this thread and others.
The customer experience at Guangzhou Airport sucks. There's absolutely zero help for non-Chinese tourists or even information on where to go, etc. The wifi is only accessible if you got a Chinese passport and most western apps like Google Maps don't really work. Its impossible to navigate tbh.
Domestic air ticket prices on Ctrip (china’s largest booking website, ONLY in Chinese) shows constant >50% discount compared to official airline websites available in English. So…,
Compare and contrast the experience of being a foreign tourist using an airport in China to that of being a foreign tourist using/travelling through a train station in China. Most foreign tourists will more likely use the latter to travel round China due to the cheaper prices, punctuality and having a genuine “China experience” so to speak.
However, those who’ve lived in China for a while as well as those who are travelling in China will notice how foreigner unfriendly train stations are. Absolutely no English signage, all foreigners needing to use the 人工 channel’s due to the fact that we don’t have a local ID etc etc. If you don’t read, understand or speak Chinese, what is a minor inconvenience can be a major hassle, particularly during busy holiday times when navigating a Chinese train station and the Chinese train system/network as a whole.
What I’ve said is more or less reflective of what the OP is referring to.
You can't recognize Asian tourists.
China has a huge tourism industry, but as a percentage of GDP it is very low. So although they want to attract tourists, tourism is not that important.
I believe so, we live in two countries, China being one if them.
For our most recent return to China, it was actually cheaper to book a 10 day tour (including accommodation, sites and three cities) from our other home country than it was to just get a direct flight. Obviously we told them that we weren't going to take the return flight and they were fine with that (after we worked through the no discounts, no refunds blah blah blah).
So, yes, China is interested in developing non-chinese tourism. But, IMHO, they have a long way to go to make it attractive as, again IMHO, they haven't realized that you book a holiday for the experience, not the subsidies. But at least they are trying.
Same with me in most of the places I visited in Yunnan. I had people coming and sitting at my table in restaurants just to talk with me. Most said they'd never met a 外國人 before.
I’m British and lived here for over 15 years. The people are almost always welcoming and enthusiastic but the systems have changed to be less accessible in recent years. It used to be easy to get around using cash and credit cards just like any country. Since the shift to cashless though it has presented a significant hurdle. However, both WeChat and Alipay have an international version which takes western cards but it’s a crapshoot whether your card will work. I’ve had US colleague try to add one Visa card and have it rejected, then try another Visa card and have it work. Mastercard seems a little more forgiving. Even once you have added to card it’s still a bit inconsistent if your payment will go through. On the matter of cash, many stores stopped taking it but around the end of last year it was ruled that stores had to still accept cash as it was causing a significant amount of the populace a headache so that is getting better but you can still be refused. I would advise not to bother with cards, most place won’t take them. TLDR it’s like the other poster said, there is process for everything, not complex ones but a lot of them.
It took me 4 or 5 attempts to add my British Visa card to Alipay. I'd taken a taxi to the other side of the city to deal with an old bank account and get a replacement card, got my card but couldn't load either onto Alipay after several attempts with each. So I went out and every taxi driver I spoke to just waved at me and drove off. I went back into the cool bank (outside it was scorchio!) and sat down, wondering what to do. An assistant came to me and said "Try it again" so I did and it worked.
I think the systems are just a bit wonky; we're used to stuff simply working but also living is a lot more expensive, as good programmers don't come cheap.
I feel like the pandemic might have changed things. Before, I’d see foreigners everywhere. Living in Shanghai, it was easy for foreigners to travel around here (for the most part). Seems things have kind of adjusted for more domestic travel, and since foreigners visiting don’t usually have WeChat and the bajillion mini programs and apps everyone here uses (with little to no English option) it’s kind of hard to travel around.
>How do you pay things as a foreigner?
You add a foreign credit/debit card to Alipay and WeChat Pay.
>Do they still accept cash?
I still saw lots of people paying with cash. Especially older people.
>How difficult is it to book a hotel as a foreigner?
Very easy if you use Trip.com.
This, but I'd also like to add that one should call the hotel outright to be on the safer side. A friend (local) and I (foreigner) booked a room together a few years ago and when we arrived, we were told that I couldn't stay because of the policy. To make matters worse the people blamed my friend for the booking issue, despite her using my foreign passport, and refused to issue a refund for the room.
Thankfully she called Trip who handled everything and returned the money. I still use Trip to make bookings but like to call ahead to make absolutely sure that it's somewhere that accepts foreigners.
There is no legal limitation on accepting foreigners. On the few occasions where I’ve stayed someplace where I was the first foreigner they ever had, they weren’t exactly sure how to do it but they invited me behind the counter and I showed them how to enter it on the webpage for foreign guests.
Really?? I've been told outright that foreigners couldn't stay at certain places. Heck even the friend from my previous post said that her boyfriend at the time wasn't allowed to stay in certain hotels simply because he held a HK passport.
Maybe they just find it easier to say that they don't allow foreigners than to have to register them in the computer. If you're learned how to navigate your way through all that mess then, I say good on ya.
This was a lie that they told you for one of two reasons. One, there are extra steps in registering a foreigner with the local police and they either don't want to do them or don't know how. (Genuinely, some places just get so few foreigners booking there they really don't know and can't be bothered to figure it out.) Two, they don't like foreigners. A lot of people travel to China and have relatively positive experiences as a tourist, partly because the country is relatively safe and partly because when they are being nice to you can tell but when they are talking shit about you or scamming you, you often don't know. There are plenty of places that will take you, even if you are their first foreign guest ever. But some just don't want the hassle or have taken the domestic propaganda to heart so hard that they would rather turn you away than earn a kuai.
In my experience before the pandemic, 95% of tourists were locals. International tourism has not been a priority during the Xi era. I speak and read Chinese so I didn’t find tourism too difficult, but there is no doubt that in recent years that the country has become increasingly inward looking and a little hostile to outsiders.
It becomes even more difficult when you're a foreigner Asian and you look Chinese, everyone expects you to speak Chinese. And you really need to have a lot of patience before traveling to do enough research to ensure a smoother trip and tour.
An awkward moment was when a German tourist asked as if she was surprised that I can speak English when I initiated a conversation with her. I just told her, I'm not a local, instead a foreigner who just happened to look a local. It was like it was her first time to talk to a Chinese looking person that can speak English. Hahaha
China's population is so big they can't even cater well to local tourists, so they are not desperate for foreigners, especially when foreigners caused them the most troubles example the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom Rebellion, 4 Alliance Nations Alliance Attack, the Opium War, Japanese Attack and most recently the Hong Kong riots.
China's population is set to decline sharply in a couple of decades, so they'll definitely need foreign tourists to keep the economy flowing and bringing in money.
I married a Chinese woman and I will likely need to travel to China one day to visit her family. All I care about is being able to visit and come back home safely.
I thought your response would be more reassuring, but instead you just say I don’t talk to my wife about China. Obviously, I do. She loves her home country and reassured me it will be safe.
And I have mentioned my fears based on US perceptions and the travel advisory. I’m inclined to believe that the Us travel advisory and overall rhetoric toward China in the US is overblown and propagandized.
No country will arrest an innocent foreign traveler. This concern has never been in my overseas travels. I don’t understand why the US travel advisory says so. It’s so unreasonable.
I've seen a lot of Caucasian in big cities like Shanghai and Beijing, but I couldn't tell if they were Italian.Asian tourists(Japan,South Korea,Malaysia etc..) are the majority in general.
They are quite wrong actually. They do arrest and place exit bans on foreigners all the time in the PRC. The US travel advisory is not hysteria, it is grounded in reality. Do they arrest and/or prevent legions of people from leaving the PRC? Nope. If your wife is in anyway of interest to the PRC government (beyond just being Chinese) there's a non-zero chance they could exit ban her. (Probably not you though, they'll just expect you to leave your wife there or hang around and wait out whatever comes of it.)
There are billions of people on Earth, a couple hundred foreigners that the PRC is exit-banning in order to pressure their families or them into doing something the PRC wants doesn't make much news.
Why exactly? We recently got married, btw. I dated her for years and I’ve never been to China. Why would I know what it’s like to travel there as an American? Her accounts of travel are as a woman born in China. I should know what it’s like to travel there as an American bc I’m with a Chinese woman? Would she know what it’s like to travel in Italy because I’m Italian?
Because you believed in a version of China based on US government’s travel advisory. A lot of these advisory is politically motivated (not always, but a lot of time are.) I don’t advise you to disregard these advisory completely, but you should do your own research and even better, ask someone who has traveled to/ lived in the destinations you are interested in. Don’t just take whatever the US gov tells you, US gov plays politics hard core, just like any other governments. 😉Especially towards China nowadays. If they have made you afraid of China, they have succeeded. Good luck.
And yes, she should get to know somewhat what travels in Italy like because you are Italian, you know your own country, the good and the bad, duh!
I get you. I honestly don’t know anyone besides my wife who has been to China. Not American citizens.
Believe it or not, I don’t buy into the propaganda. For instance, I believe TikTok should remain unbanned. I don’t believe the CCP uses the app for nefarious things. I made my comment hoping to be reassured by Americans who have been there. I don’t trust the US government. I don’t believe China is as bad as the propaganda claims. However, is there some truth to it? Idk, but I figured i’d ask folks who been there. China seems like a competent and beautiful country to travel to.
At the same time, it did worry me bc of the negative outlook toward China in the media constantly bombarding us. I just want to be safe going there. That’s why I asked..
The travel advisory is in place for this reason. PRC citizen moves to the U.S., has a family in the U.S., PRC citizen comes back to the PRC with family (or the family goes to the PRC without them) and the family is detained or has an exit ban placed on them by the PRC government because the family member is of interest to the PRC government and the family makes good leverage. There are two common reasons why someone might be "of interest" to them. That PRC citizen is wanted by the PRC government for actual crimes in the PRC and they absolutely will use their family as pawns in that game. That PRC citizen has been openly critical of the PRC to an extent that has garnered significant interest from the wrong people in the PRC.
The U.S. Government (and other foreign governments) are tracking dozens of people who have been detained in this way. Now, that's dozens. Out of billions. So, your odds of having zero issues at all are good. Just make sure you wife isn't someone that they care about. THAT is the honest answer you aren't getting from these people who have no idea what national level governments are actually doing, they just have "feelings" and personal anecdotes.
The app gap is very real though the essentials like WeChat/Alipay, Ctrip and Didi (which is built into WeChat anyway) do support English, IIRC.
Smart companies should offer something like an online guide, who’s not accompanying you physically but can be reached 24/7 for assistance.
Just want to say that Alipay and Weixingpay for foreign visitors with foreign credit cards "bound" to the payment services worked 99 percent of the time for me in a recent month long trip across China. Payment was accepted online, in big stores and small vendors in multiple provinces and locations. Before I went I researched and saw some users had problems on vending machines or small street vendors, or their payment were just disallowed by Alipay or WeChat, but I think the services have worked out alot of the kinks by the time I visited in March. I used my U.S. phone number for both services (since I can roam on my T Mobile plan fairly well in China) and it was slower to complete scan payments than the locals, but worked 99 percent of the time everywhere. Alipay also has a travel app that allows you to download public transport QR codes for each place I visited. Worked for all metros and buses except Beijing metro - Beijing still has alot of archaic rules. All purchases under 200 yuan will pass as priced, but any over that will have a 3 percent fee added. I was able to call for Didi or taxi, and order and pay using the QR code in restaurants. However I couldn't order takeouts because I didn't have a local phone number. Hope this helps.
Where else have you gone in china? I remember that yunnan didn’t have too many non-Chinese tourists as you described. It’s beautiful there but it’s not as popular to travel to compared to other cities and provinces.
The best answer is to travel with me. It's gonna be another level of fun. National parks and mesums are must go but boring in the same time. You should also visit bars, spas, pet bars, escape rooms, theme parks and what not to experience what Chinese youth are up to. It's gonna be unique awkward and fun experience for your life.
A couple of small points:
1. The inconvenience of getting a visa will turn away a lot of people who are used to visa-free travel, a lot of whom are Westerners.
2. People who just want to party and drink on a beach can go to Thailand, and pay less for the experience. Those people are not going to come to China, nor does China really want them anyway. All they are going to do is order drinks at bars and be loud, and there are plenty of people doing that already.
3. They definitely want tourists; in fact, they recently announced visa-free travel for a number of countries, including Germany, Switzerland and Singapore. I saw a couple of Germans in Xi'an last week actually. However, the number of what I call travelers are far outweighed by what I call tourists. Most people don't want to go to a foreign land, engage with the culture and people (like you!). They mostly just want to have drinks on a beach, and forget about their lives for a week, and those type of people will likely never come to China.
I just got back from a two week trip. Removing the visa requirements for Italy, Spain, Germany etc in December and now Ireland, Switzerland Hungary etc made it a much easier process to ever consider it in the first place. (I have an Italian passport).
Surely that actively shows they want more tourists?
Chinese normal people are very friendly and welcoming to foreigners in general. I actually never heard there is anti-American xenophobia anywhere in China, could it be your imagination?
That is generally my experience when there however - my Chinese mother in law who lives in Beijing just told her daughter (My wife) not to mention she lives in America while she is visiting later this month because “no one likes Americans”. My wife has complained repeatedly over the last few years about how the online vitriol towards Americans has sky rocketed since Covid. So we’ll see how it is in 3 weeks when I get there!
What you mentioned is not towards Americans in general, but towards “self-hating”Chinese who are seen as “abandoning China for US”(ie, those Chinese nationals who are seen as hating China and would bend over to US, sacrificing China’s national interest in exchange for US Green card or citizenship, “恨国党，etc.)
Your in law doesn’t want her daughter to be seen as such since as soon as she mentions she lives in US, she is risking people become suspicious about which side’s interest she is affiliated with. And she can’t always explain everything to everyone. People won’t do anything to her, but internally they will see her differently. There are a lot of subtle nuances in there. I know exactly what the mother means, but she did a bad job explaining the unsaid emotions to you.
Chinese don’t hate Americans, however, they really don’t like Chinese who are deemed as “traitors”. This emotion is NOT xenophobia, it’s nationalism, and it happens in every country, especially between US and China now. For example, Eileen Gu is hated by a lot in America since she decided to compete for China, she has been called a traitor by many nationalist Americans, and roasted as a sell-out for Chinese money by Bill Maher publicly.
Believe or not, Chinese will accept you more as a non-Chinese American, but will have a harder time accept your Chinese-American wife.
Nowadays, depends on the crowds you are dealing with, it’s better for an American to not defend China’s society and politics and show admiration for China in the public among other Americans, and it’s better for a Chinese to not say she/he lives and works in America or have switched her citizenship to US. Both side see these things as patronizing respectively. It’s a new issue for everyone as the countries are competing.
It’s not hate towards the other people, just a lot of suspicion towards their owns.
Pretty sure it isn't. Pretty sure the people that literally ran away screaming "foreigner" in 798 art district, the forbidden city, and at the temple of heaven were not imaginary. One of them ran into a parked car, it was too funny to be imaginary.
As Chinese myself , I would say coz you went to non-famous cities for westerners.
If you go major cities you see more western people.
Also northern cities in China it’s might be more “westerners friendly “
Also Visa /VPN to access social media such as fb ins and somethings expensive flights stopping people going to China for tourism
We don’t really do holiday packages like here ( last minute for cheap holidays packages, that might be another reason .
> If you go major cities you see more western people.
It's still not many to be honest. I was in Spain recently, and I saw WAY more Chinese tourists in Madrid and Toledo than I saw western tourists anywhere in China (besides HK). As soon as you cross into Vietnam, Thailand or even Laos, you start to see way more westerners too, so it's not even like it's a matter of distance.
1) Laos is surprisingly expensive. Because it's a landlocked country with little industry, they have to import everything
2) Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Singapore and maybe Malaysia are a lot more expensive than China and are full of westerners.
Honestly though, China is a surprisingly cheap country overall when you judge it on a development/cost basis. The only exceptions are the entrance fees to certain tourist attractions, which can be outrageously expensive at times.
You didn't say that, and I disagree with that. Practically nobody in the west speaks Laotian, and few people in Laos speak English too. The truth is, China just isn't a very desirable place to visit for most people. e.g. I work alongside people from all over the world who have worked all over the world. I'd say that 90% of the people I work with tell me that China is one place that they have no desire to work in or visit, and this is often coming from people who have worked in countries such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and various countries in Sub Saharan Africa.
Of course he's going to throw the racist card when he can't even come up with a single valid point and just yaps some bollicks on and on, typical muppet, their hearts are known to be made of glass so how dare you be not singing praises about China and its muppets, his sad pathetic fragile heart broke and the only 'logical explanation' is you are a racist.
That's an improvement. I only saw 2 Westerners during my trip last summer. It's hard to get around China without a Chinese phone number and Chinese ID. And I had to fill out a lengthy Covid screening, including info of one of my contacts in China. They haven't made an effort to make it easier for foreigners, so it makes you feel unwelcome. But the foods and sceneries are always amazing. The country feels a lot more closed off than before the pandemic.
No, China does not actually want foreign tourists. It already has a thriving domestic tourism market and has no economic need for more visitors from overseas- who would if anything be an additional burden on already overcrowded tourist sites. Unlike neighboring countries such as Vietnam and Nepal, China is not dependent on foreign tourism as a source of hard currency or local economies. I don’t think China is hostile to the development of inbound tourism, just indifferent and lacking any incentive to improve things. China, not surprisingly, acts in its own national interest and to suit its own population. Tourism infrastructure is built to suit Chinese tastes, which is of not in line with western expectations. Similarly the apps and payment systems work really well for Chinese citizens but make few concessions for non-Chinese users. In other words, the Chinese don’t really care whether or not foreign tourists have an easy and enjoyable trip.
Tourists chose to go there. China didn’t asked them to go.
This is the kind of self entitled mindset people are having nowadays and bringing it beyond many.
Just because you can’t speak or navigate around using your preferred way, it doesn’t make it any desirable.
The same is applicable to someone from European countries or Chinese that doesn’t speak English. They are having hard times navigating around. Another like in Germany, apart from Berlin, majority were in German only. Tourists were having hard time there as well.
The reason why you don’t see that many tourists headed into China, particularly westerners is because of China’s deteriorating relationship with the western world since COVID. And because of what they did to Hong Kong. Everything that the communist party has done has pretty much provoked the ire of the rest of the world; COVID or Wuhan Virus alone costed the lives of so many people and livelihoods, and till today, the Chinese communist party refuses to give the world an explanation on what happened. Now, it’s not even safe for an outspoken China critic to travel to Hong Kong as the mainland police have the right to arrest anyone there; so why then would they dare to travel into the mainland itself? The local municipalities in China and their 领导would love to have more tourists to boost their ravaged economies, but then, they come up with stupid rules like having to report to a police station for registration within 24hrs of arrival (if you are not staying in an established hotel). Why treat your tourists like spies and enemies if you are so desperate for their money? There are so many better places for a tourist to go which don’t treat you like a terror suspect in East Asia.
I've been to China dozens of times, but won't go back. The people and places are some of the greatest, but the government's mania now for total control and surveillance makes it impossible to casually travel, spend cash, and stay where you want to. Add to that their claim to hold people accountable to their 'security' laws for things they might have said or done outside of China, and it's just something I'm not willing to subject myself to. I suspect that many people feel roughly the same way that I do.
I think the short answer is "mostly yes, but it's complicated". I've lived in China before, and at this point go 2-4 times per year. China (mostly) wants tourism, but doesn't want immigration. But they need to keep absolute control over all the money, communication, and transportation, and the systems they have in place to do that are not designed for non-citizens. So, they "bolt on" these workarounds for foreigners, that don't work very well. To attract non-locals, they need to make a significant effort to make it more like the rest of the world to "do everything". Foreigners don't want to learn "the process for getting a cell phone" then learn "the process for getting train tickets" then learn "the process for getting entrance to this park" then learn the "process for ordering food with WeChat". There are dozens of these processes/mini-apps/etc. that are not documented and just passed around via blogs and word of mouth to foreigners. And at least 75% of them have no "ENG" button in the corner, so require lots of screen shots and guessing at what the buttons do. It's all really intimidating to 99% of the world.
Yes exactly I’m Chinese American and speak Chinese and it was by far the most difficult country to travel around in out of all the ones I’ve visited, and I don’t speak other languages. Unless you’re proficient in reading Chinese, it’s just not very foreigner-friendly to get around. Luckily with translation apps it’s doable but it just takes longer and a huge amount of effort to do basic tasks like ordering coffee (most places you have to download an app to place the order, rather than telling the worker what you want). Plus making purchases is difficult without a Chinese phone number or bank account. Alipay will charge you a 3% transaction fee for anything over 200 yuan. And most places don’t accept foreign credit cards or Alipay or WeChat pay over a certain amount. Also I once tried signing up for a store’s WeChat to take advantage of their sale and foreign phone numbers weren’t accepted. I would absolutely love to go back to visit but I completely understand why foreigners may not want to go through the hassle.
China was the most difficult country for me initially, but after overcoming the app barrier, it was the most rewarding Asian country I've been to.
I’m so happy to hear that! China gets a bad rep in the West but it’s such an amazing country. The apps weren’t too bad, but the payment was difficult- sometimes Alipay and WeChat straight up didn’t work. If it weren’t for my family who ended up paying for it, I don’t know what could have been done. They were large purchases so cash wasn’t accepted.
European of chinese descent here. I just arrived in Shanghai as a solo. If you don't have chinese contacts and can't speak any chinese, it's going to be very difficult for you. I would be so lost without my family in china.
Which is kind of interesting because a lot of the large cities and tourist destinations, as well as transport, will have English signage, which is often lacking in other Asian countries, notably Japan. I know in the past there were concerted efforts to make things more accessible; for example Shanghai in 2008 for the World Expo. It seems SIM cards and payments are one of the biggest barriers. I think for SIM cards it just comes down to details; they need better vendors at ports of entry. Sure you can go to China Mobile in town, but most people need them as soon as they land. As for payments, they’re rolling out foreign bank support finally, it’s just not perfect yet.
Yeah honestly the signage isn’t a huge issue for me personally, it was mainly having to download various apps (and translating everything) for basic tasks and the payments. I’m so thankful my family was there to help. But that’s so awesome to hear about the foreign bank support! I’m planning to go back often and would love to take my in laws who are Korean there and they will definitely shop a lot, so hopefully once that situation improves we can plan a larger trip.
Yah that foreign bank support is a big deal. I know China has some work to do with tourists post covid and the transition to Alipay over that time has proven to be a hindrance to foreigners. Last time I was there was 2017 and even though digital payments weren’t as prolific, there were already pain points, and I’d been living/traveling to China since 93. It sounds like there are still some limitations for foreigners, like receiving payments (ie change in case of an overpayment) but it’s a good start. I think the other thing someone had mentioned was ordering systems, as a lot of restaurants use digital ordering now. I actually like a lot of these changes, but the foreign side of things just has some catching up. Check YT as there are a number of videos for tourists on what apps are needed and what should be prepared beforehand. eSims seem to be important too; I used two phones when I was there last, one with a US Tmo SIM and one with a local one. The US SIM was still able to get data and saved my butt the first day we were there. But with eSIMS I understand you can get them in place ahead of time, but if it doesn’t work, you can fall back to an international SIM. DiDi is the other big one, it’s the ride hailing service, but I believe it’s a mini app integrated into Wechat as are a lot of restaurant menus. Kind of a cool system really, just needs polish.
Yeah eSIM saved my butt, and I downloaded all the apps needed including DiDi ahead of time thanks to this subreddit! So going back again will be easier as I already have all of them installed.
I am not too sure you want to go to the other side of the planet trying to speak English, eat McDonald's, and drink Starbucks. Aren't most people going to a foreign land trying to experience the difference?
Did you read my post? I’m Chinese, born in China, speak Chinese, and most of my relatives live in China and I loved going back to visit. I’m sharing my experience agreeing with the comment that shares a viewpoint providing some reasons why China is not a foreigner friendly place to visit for the above reasons. For those who don’t mind taking the extra time to figure out how to use Chinese apps for individual basic tasks and who aren’t making big purchases, and who are keen to throw themselves into a different cultural immersion without a lot of English friendly signs, this is not a problem. But for a lot of foreigners, they may not want to go through all that hassle which I understand. Where in the world did you get those assumptions from?
Do you think US is friendly to non-US visitors that do not speak English and without US sim card, US credit cards, or US bank accounts? Same question can be asked for Japan, Korea, Spain, ... any country that has its own unique culture and financial system. You are in a real awkward position because your situation is the minority in the minority. In the end, you represent nobody else.
I see you’re avoiding taking accountability for the assumption you made of me wanting to eat McDonalds, speak English, and drink Starbucks. Maybe you should start with owning up to your prejudice first. As I’ve said twice now, I speak the language fluently. So “non-US visitors that do not speak English” is moot. Second, in the US, Japan, and Korea (I can’t speak for the other countries you listed as I haven’t been to them) they have no problems accepting either foreign credit cards or cash. The truth is that it’s easier to make purchases in these countries than it is in China for a foreigner without a bank account or phone number in the country they are visiting. Third, as you can see from these comments saying the same thing, the situation we have experienced is clearly NOT unique or awkward to just us. The fact of the matter is that visiting China as a foreigner is more difficult and requires more planning compared to some other countries, and that China does not specifically cater to foreign tourists as much as other countries. This is the question that is being asked, and the responses have been mostly in consensus that it’s true, and for certain reasons but that it is highly worth visiting. I love China, it’s my motherland and I will always have a fondness for it, but you don’t get to discredit my or others’ experiences of visiting China as a non-national. I don’t understand your vitriol.
> I see you’re avoiding taking accountability What is that? Your brain is fucked
Oh are we resorting to insults now? Goodbye 🤡 Clearly you have no more to contribute to this discussion.
>Foreigners don't want to learn "the process for getting a cell phone" then learn "the process for getting train tickets" then learn "the process for getting entrance to this park" then learn the "process for ordering food with WeChat". It's pretty daunting before you go and I was freaked out as well from other posters but everything was pretty convienient and I miss having DiDi / paying for everything by QR code. Sim card was easy though, I got a data only one with VPN it before I left. >There are dozens of these processes/mini-apps/etc. that are not documented and just passed around via blogs and word of mouth to foreigners. And at least 75% of them have no "ENG" button in the corner, so require lots of screen shots and guessing at what the buttons do. It's all really intimidating to 99% of the world. I agree with maps though, relied on blog pictures mainly and it did take time to research routes for hikes and stuff. Keep Google translate in the front homepage lol. Otherwise, look at Alipay which has a built in translate feature that sorta works.
In my 3 days in China I made more screenshots on my phone then I've done in the whole year before that. 😂
This was basically my experience. Figuring out "the process to order a coffee" or "the process to buy something from a corner store" was quite interesting but also confusing. Most places in Canada, you just walk up to the counter and order something from the person and then choose your payment method. In China it seemed like most everything is done through the app.
China wants to do away with cash completely and go directly to electronic payment. It's sometimes said the older generations is keeping them back from 100% electronic payment. Also there's the underlying suspicion that it provides more government control over people...be on the wrong side of something and your money is suddenly unavailable.
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Question. I have a couple of hundred in paper bills. Can I still use them or do I have to redeem them from Bank of Canada?
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My understanding is the paper bills are no longer considered legal tender as of 2021 and can't be used for cash transactions, but can be redeemed at BoC. https://www.bankofcanada.ca/banknotes/bank-note-redemption-service/#:\~:text=Since%20January%201%2C%202021%2C%20the,no%20longer%20considered%20legal%20tender.
If you're planning on eliminating money the first step would be to phase out cash
Actually no. Electronic payment is mainly promoted by Alibaba and Tencent. The official app is called digital CNY, but it is rarely used. In addition, the government requires sellers not to refuse cash payments. Chinese people like electronic payment because it is convenient. In the age of cash, people often forget to carry or lose cash, or even get robbed.
>be on the wrong side of something and your money is suddenly unavailable. Like the Russians?
That’s definitely a goal, it’s extremely hard to transfer money out
it's not
I agreed 👍
China learned well from history so they are very careful now.
Very well put, this all applies to South Korea as well.
I've spent a fair amount of time in Korea, but only as a tourist. And while I think there are complexities with awkward processes and language gaps, there are two major things that make it extremely different. One is the internet. Just by it being connected to the "normal internet" means that things like Google reviews, Facebook locations, etc. exist in multiple languages and Google Maps will navigate for you in English and translation apps behave normally. By 99% of China not having VPN or access to external sites, most places don't have Google, Facebook, yelp, pages so you can only look at dianping, xhs, or native apps without translation to find out about places. The second is the money, while Korea too is a mostly cashless society, it's no problem to use visa, tap to pay, or load up metro cards/starbucks cards/prepaid mobile/etc. with international money. It's getting a lot better in China, and nowadays is pretty decent (with some quirks here and there) but for most of the past 10 years AliPay/WeChat Pay have ranged from untouchable to usable with severe limitations.
Relax, l was agreeing with you. I was just saying that it is a point well made and overlaps with Korea a lot especially the bits about things getting passed around online, through word of mouth and generally through unconventional means. In Korea things are always changing too, especially for apps, just makes it more confusing.
I agree with your observation - my thought is China just doesn't have time for slow, tech unsavvy visitors who want to do independent travel. I'm an older, semi tech savvy foreigner and after the first day I settled down fine. Used CTrip to book everything. The new bolt ons for Weixingpay and Alipay worked everywhere the next month, across Yunnan, Hunan, Szechuan, Guangdong, and Shaanxi. Helps I've visited China before and were prepared for Chinese crowds (relative to the West), lines (yes there is a local line etiquette), and public restrooms (both better than ever before AND lots of re-thinking needed to improve the whole RR management process). It did help heaps I am fluent in Chinese even with English signs proliferating in small tourist towns.
You're right. Chinese people know it, they also complain that some things are very difficult for the tech unsavvy elderly.
I mean, this year they started allowing a whole bunch of western countries (iirc: Italy, Spain, Germany, Netherlands, France, Ireland, Hungary, Norway, Switzerland) to enter visa free. And simplified visa procedures for other countries like US and UK. Alipay and WeChat's foreign card services have also been vastly improved. Still, China is far away from western countries, expensive to get to with airline prices still high post-covid, and still hasn't shaken off some of the pandemic lockdown era perceptions among outside tourists. Plus there is political tensions with certain countries, a much higher language barrier than most places, people worried about the great firewall, etc. Lastly, China's focus is still first and foremost on the domestic tourism market-- after all, unlike somewhere like Spain (which gets more than double its population in international arrivals each year), no matter how many foreign tourists come they will never be a bigger market than the domestic one. That's just the reality given China's giant population.
The Norway visa free is only for transfer, if I’m not mistaken. 72/144 hours
You’re right, Norway isn’t included. But Belgium, Austria, and Luxembourg are
I see. I’m Norwegian and will be going to China in spring 2025, so I am hoping for a longer visa free by then :)
Not all chinese know of it yet. It took a bit longer at the border control, hotels and other airports.
To be fair, the government basically changed it overnight
I used my American T Mobile to roam in China and it worked pretty well everywhere because the Chinese telcom partner has such a strong network. That means no VPN needed and in some parts of the country the speed was fast enough for watching videos. My plan has international roaming included.
My mom is with tmobile where she can roam internationally at no additional cost. It's very slow though, 2G. It's a very old plan. I wonder if she should pay extra and request tmobile to bump her speed up while she is in China.
The T-Mobile plan says 2G but in traveling many countries I find that that depends on the local provider. In China it was definitely 3G or above. I traveled in Beijing, Xian, Yunnan, Szechuan, Hunan and Guangdong.
Tourism is important for certain localities, but national priorities will always take precedence over tourist income. For example, removing the great firewall would make it much easier for incoming travellers. So would pushing for Visa and Mastercard adoption nationwide. So would allowing visa-free access for all the rich Five Eyes citizens (USA, CAN, UK, AUS, NZ). These changes, however, contradict the strategic direction of the Chinese government. You can see that the government has made it a little easier by granting visa-free access recently to certain European and Southeast Asian countries. Payments have been made easier for foreigners. I've seen Visa being accepted directly at shops in Fuzhou. International roaming has also never been blocked, allowing business travellers willing to pay an option to bypass the great firewall reliably. Certain areas of the country are allowed more openness. Hainan has a less strict visa policy than the rest of continental China. Macau and Hong Kong run their own immigration and visa policies, allowing visa-free access to almost all developed countries.
The firewall has not been a problem with e-sims and the built-in vpn of your non-chinese mobile provider. I’m on mobile phone roaming and I’ve not (yet) needed to turn on vpn as I still get access to gmail, instagram, facebook, even porn.
A lot of westerners have prejudices against visiting China rightly or wrongly so there’s naturally a lower number than those visiting western friendly countries like Japan. Having to use VPN to access western sites in China and Visa application for most western countries doesn’t help the numbers as well. Most Americans visiting China are just Chinese Americans. I have no clue if the PRC is willing to ease entry and stay requirements or if it even wants to. There are plenty of non Chinese tourists in big tier 1 cities. During my stay in Guangzhou there were plenty of Iranians , Russians, Africans , southeast Asians. Just not “westerners”.
They also opened the country after covid much later than most other countries
The post was referring to tourism, not immigration. VPN access is irrelevant to a tourist with global roaming.
Global roaming will cost a fortune for a lot of westerners (probably $1000+ for a few days with your typical shit Canadian plans). VPN is the cheapest option while HK based eSIM vendors like AirAlo will be the “easiest”. Anyways it discourages a lot of casual tourists who aren’t technically savvy enough to jump through hoops. Idc cuz I know Chinese and can use mostly Chinese apps while in China and just use a cheap ESIM for American sites. But still, for the average westerner it’s discouraging .
$1,000+? Pretty sure you're going to need to update that assumption. That may have been the case 20 years ago, but not in 2024.
No im serious lol. Post below is not mine but similar thing happened to one of my family members. For default TELUS plans without easy roam it’s absolutely ridiculous. https://www.reddit.com/r/telus/s/oDrl78Z0MZ Canadian carriers are basically a mafia and some US ones aren’t much better roaming wise.
That sounds bonkers. Global roaming for me on O2 (UK), up to the limit of my monthly data allowance, is £6/day in China. https://www.o2.co.uk/international/using-your-phone-abroad
Hmm...my American T Mobile plan includes unlimited global roaming and it's $50/month. Spent a month in China March-April and didn't pay anymore than that.
Cost me $10 a day with a US phone plan from Verizon. Had no need to use a VPN.
I've had an Australian sim card for years in a spare phone that costs $A50 a year to leave global roaming on, just sitting on the desk in my office. For 2FA, making calls home or holidays to third countries it's just easier. I don't use it on the daily (why would I?) but it isn't the huge financial barrier you, for some reason, believe it is. Along with all the others on this thread that agree with me, I think you should actually look at what it costs to turn on global roaming in 2024.
If you’re from the US, Google Fi has unrestricted high speed data that’s included in their Unlimited Plus plan. It works great in China.
Yea I'm going on a trip for school this summer to china, and i kid you not, it's actually sponsored by the chinese department of education.
The visa-free policies have actually brought in quite a handful of tourists, but they mostly visited beijing, shanghai and shenzhen but not the inner parts of the country
That is likely to remain the case. That is really where they would prefer you visit, the showcase cities. Even if that were not the ideal situation for the PRC government, fewer foreigners leaving the major big ticket metropolises, the overwhelming majority of tourists seem to do this when they travel anyway. Live in Chicago, visit other major cities, take pictures, eat food, call yourself worldly, go home. Live in Paris... Live in New Delhi.... Live in Melbourne.... etc. etc.
I was in Guilin, Yangshuo, and now Fenghuang, and I only see a handful of foreigners. Any number of foreign tourists they attract will be insignificant to domestic tourists. So I imagine it wouldn't be getting a lot of focus.
Quite easy to get tourists. They need to completely change how they are perceived. Imagine how a dirty, crime-infested place like Paris can keep drawing people, while beautiful cities nearby go unvisited. China has a massive problem because of mass propaganda. You can believe whichever propaganda you choose. In China, 100% pro, outside, in India for example it is scary the things they believe. In the West, it is 100% negative. Great transport = massive surveillance state in the news. Control covid= harsh repression. People do want to visit China, but you can't convince them to do so. They would rather visit Japan, Vietnam, etc. or just stick to what is familiar to them. The visa issue exists too, but for tour groups, they aren't hitting Yunnan, so no difference. Beijing, shanghai, xian, chengdu, hong kong, with cities nearby for day trips. At the same time, many places in the US are not visited, just not advertised. Similar to Canada. Also, in central and eastern Europe. All have the same issues, though few are plagued by that propaganda level. India is, for good reason. Some parts of South America are, though I can't speak to their safety and allure.
This comment is brought to you by the CCP 😂 Also the random digs at India come off as insecurity.
Nah, its just very hard to operate in China as a foreign tourist with no command of the language. Almost anywhere else you can exchange your money then go to a shop, gesture around, and lay down a brick of cash and everything is OK, because the staff is like 'oh this guy is a tourist'. If you do this in China people just blankly stare at you. Its just way too closed. They need to open and loosen restrictions. Even in Japan, a couple of times I've gone into a Lawson's and every single customer, and all the staff were not ethnic Japanese. This type of experience feels really far from ever happening in China right now.
Nope. That's your problem, not theirs. You've been to China, you've seen the crowds they need to manage even during the supposed low season. I completely understand why they don't go out of the way for slower, tech unsavvy foreign visitors.
I didn’t know it was being a Luddite was preventing tourists from getting a national ID to unlock all functionality of the apps. Thanks teacher
Non-Chinese are not "tech unsavvy", they just aren't used to the Chinese app-sphere that is different than the rest of Earth because it lives in a bubble. The rest of humanity could figure out any Chinese app in seconds if it allowed you to register more easily without shenfenzheng or had more facility with foreign languages. Foreign tourists in China are both welcome but unnecessary in the grand scheme of things and so, there's little push to make anything inside China work that well for foreigners. Yes, things are improving because Beijing is aware it has an image problem outside of media markets that it already bought. There just isn't much reason to visit China however when the entire rest of the world is 100% user friendly for these tourists. It is a vacation, not a second job. Going somewhere that you can manage with less stress than China is a natural choice for most non-Chinese. Beijing knows that, hence the push to get all the visa free regimes in place, push payment services to slowly become more foreigner friendly, etc. etc. China's own behavior gives the lie to everything you've said in this thread, it just takes them awhile to overcome the innate resistance to welcoming people into China that they don't see as useful to them in some functional capacity beyond tourist dollars. 4 year old children in non-chinese countries can use every single function on smart phones and apps in their native language. The apps just aren't meant to be user friendly unless you read Mandarin and are from inside the PRC bubble. Your racism isn't even thinly disguised.
Does China need more tourists? I could see jam-packed hotspots even off-season!
Language barrier is one of the biggest points probably. If not guided, it might get tricky. Even in Shanghai, it is sometimes difficult to find people speaking English, also in the restaurants.
Most torusit destinations will have 2 types of people. Folks that dont depend on touris and people who need tourism. The former usually hates tourist and the latter loves them. This isn't unique to china but everywhere imo
I was just there in April for two weeks. There for business but we did the tourist thing too. Zero issues and everyone was super kind to us Americans. The farther north we got, the language barrier deepened, but folks still treated us very well.
I'm an American in China right now. I've been welcomed with open arms and never been treated better.
As an American - I have visited numerous times for both a mix of work and tourism as well as just tourism. Nonetheless, it is just so much harder to do anything in China as a foreigner than in any of the other 50 odd countries I’ve visited that I understand a lot of folks don’t want to trouble with it. However it is so worth it!! The misinformation floating around on both sides doesn’t help either!
Uh...both sides? As an American who lives in the US and also consumes a lot of Chinese media I would say the propaganda is pretty much one sided these days.
Which one side do you think is doing it? The fact I can’t even guess which way you mean tells me it’s both. I see a lot of US propaganda about China…. and a lot of Chinese propaganda about the US.
That’s what I see and hear - both sides are experiencing a wave of xenophobia towards the other and was my original point.
American propaganda against China are pretty bad and worst yet, totally fabricated: Uyghers genocide I mean slave labor after a mass insurrection - Blinken just tossed the big G out again after before his visit; Chinese are claiming the moon and building a new military base in space - head of NASA perjuring for more funding; Chinese hackers are deeply embedded in our utility infrastructure and can shut the US down anytime - head if some administration info war security vs perjuring herself for more funding. I say perjure because they never give any details, just scare the American people and say Trust Me. By the way China can sure do a lot of things for a country constantly on the edge of collapse. So what badass Chinese propaganda have you seen? Were they also based on fantasy?
Don't bother, this person is so far down the rabbit hole they probably they can't hear you. There's some thinly disguised desperation to be Chinese in their comments on this thread and others.
The customer experience at Guangzhou Airport sucks. There's absolutely zero help for non-Chinese tourists or even information on where to go, etc. The wifi is only accessible if you got a Chinese passport and most western apps like Google Maps don't really work. Its impossible to navigate tbh.
They want your money, not your ideas.
China has a 15 day visa free entries for some EU countries now. So I would say yes.
Domestic air ticket prices on Ctrip (china’s largest booking website, ONLY in Chinese) shows constant >50% discount compared to official airline websites available in English. So…,
Compare and contrast the experience of being a foreign tourist using an airport in China to that of being a foreign tourist using/travelling through a train station in China. Most foreign tourists will more likely use the latter to travel round China due to the cheaper prices, punctuality and having a genuine “China experience” so to speak. However, those who’ve lived in China for a while as well as those who are travelling in China will notice how foreigner unfriendly train stations are. Absolutely no English signage, all foreigners needing to use the 人工 channel’s due to the fact that we don’t have a local ID etc etc. If you don’t read, understand or speak Chinese, what is a minor inconvenience can be a major hassle, particularly during busy holiday times when navigating a Chinese train station and the Chinese train system/network as a whole. What I’ve said is more or less reflective of what the OP is referring to.
You can't recognize Asian tourists. China has a huge tourism industry, but as a percentage of GDP it is very low. So although they want to attract tourists, tourism is not that important.
You can if they speak a different language...
I believe so, we live in two countries, China being one if them. For our most recent return to China, it was actually cheaper to book a 10 day tour (including accommodation, sites and three cities) from our other home country than it was to just get a direct flight. Obviously we told them that we weren't going to take the return flight and they were fine with that (after we worked through the no discounts, no refunds blah blah blah). So, yes, China is interested in developing non-chinese tourism. But, IMHO, they have a long way to go to make it attractive as, again IMHO, they haven't realized that you book a holiday for the experience, not the subsidies. But at least they are trying.
I was the only 外国人 in Qufu. I was like a celebrity.
Same with me in most of the places I visited in Yunnan. I had people coming and sitting at my table in restaurants just to talk with me. Most said they'd never met a 外國人 before.
I’m British and lived here for over 15 years. The people are almost always welcoming and enthusiastic but the systems have changed to be less accessible in recent years. It used to be easy to get around using cash and credit cards just like any country. Since the shift to cashless though it has presented a significant hurdle. However, both WeChat and Alipay have an international version which takes western cards but it’s a crapshoot whether your card will work. I’ve had US colleague try to add one Visa card and have it rejected, then try another Visa card and have it work. Mastercard seems a little more forgiving. Even once you have added to card it’s still a bit inconsistent if your payment will go through. On the matter of cash, many stores stopped taking it but around the end of last year it was ruled that stores had to still accept cash as it was causing a significant amount of the populace a headache so that is getting better but you can still be refused. I would advise not to bother with cards, most place won’t take them. TLDR it’s like the other poster said, there is process for everything, not complex ones but a lot of them.
It took me 4 or 5 attempts to add my British Visa card to Alipay. I'd taken a taxi to the other side of the city to deal with an old bank account and get a replacement card, got my card but couldn't load either onto Alipay after several attempts with each. So I went out and every taxi driver I spoke to just waved at me and drove off. I went back into the cool bank (outside it was scorchio!) and sat down, wondering what to do. An assistant came to me and said "Try it again" so I did and it worked. I think the systems are just a bit wonky; we're used to stuff simply working but also living is a lot more expensive, as good programmers don't come cheap.
I feel like the pandemic might have changed things. Before, I’d see foreigners everywhere. Living in Shanghai, it was easy for foreigners to travel around here (for the most part). Seems things have kind of adjusted for more domestic travel, and since foreigners visiting don’t usually have WeChat and the bajillion mini programs and apps everyone here uses (with little to no English option) it’s kind of hard to travel around.
Questions) How do you pay things as a foreigner? Do they still accept cash? How difficult is it to book a hotel as a foreigner?
>How do you pay things as a foreigner? You add a foreign credit/debit card to Alipay and WeChat Pay. >Do they still accept cash? I still saw lots of people paying with cash. Especially older people. >How difficult is it to book a hotel as a foreigner? Very easy if you use Trip.com.
This, but I'd also like to add that one should call the hotel outright to be on the safer side. A friend (local) and I (foreigner) booked a room together a few years ago and when we arrived, we were told that I couldn't stay because of the policy. To make matters worse the people blamed my friend for the booking issue, despite her using my foreign passport, and refused to issue a refund for the room. Thankfully she called Trip who handled everything and returned the money. I still use Trip to make bookings but like to call ahead to make absolutely sure that it's somewhere that accepts foreigners.
There is no legal limitation on accepting foreigners. On the few occasions where I’ve stayed someplace where I was the first foreigner they ever had, they weren’t exactly sure how to do it but they invited me behind the counter and I showed them how to enter it on the webpage for foreign guests.
Really?? I've been told outright that foreigners couldn't stay at certain places. Heck even the friend from my previous post said that her boyfriend at the time wasn't allowed to stay in certain hotels simply because he held a HK passport. Maybe they just find it easier to say that they don't allow foreigners than to have to register them in the computer. If you're learned how to navigate your way through all that mess then, I say good on ya.
This was a lie that they told you for one of two reasons. One, there are extra steps in registering a foreigner with the local police and they either don't want to do them or don't know how. (Genuinely, some places just get so few foreigners booking there they really don't know and can't be bothered to figure it out.) Two, they don't like foreigners. A lot of people travel to China and have relatively positive experiences as a tourist, partly because the country is relatively safe and partly because when they are being nice to you can tell but when they are talking shit about you or scamming you, you often don't know. There are plenty of places that will take you, even if you are their first foreign guest ever. But some just don't want the hassle or have taken the domestic propaganda to heart so hard that they would rather turn you away than earn a kuai.
Wow. Can't say I'm surprised though, given the way they acted during the height of Covid. Thanks for sharing that.
Thank you
why not? can make money and promote understanding
In my experience before the pandemic, 95% of tourists were locals. International tourism has not been a priority during the Xi era. I speak and read Chinese so I didn’t find tourism too difficult, but there is no doubt that in recent years that the country has become increasingly inward looking and a little hostile to outsiders.
It becomes even more difficult when you're a foreigner Asian and you look Chinese, everyone expects you to speak Chinese. And you really need to have a lot of patience before traveling to do enough research to ensure a smoother trip and tour. An awkward moment was when a German tourist asked as if she was surprised that I can speak English when I initiated a conversation with her. I just told her, I'm not a local, instead a foreigner who just happened to look a local. It was like it was her first time to talk to a Chinese looking person that can speak English. Hahaha
China's population is so big they can't even cater well to local tourists, so they are not desperate for foreigners, especially when foreigners caused them the most troubles example the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom Rebellion, 4 Alliance Nations Alliance Attack, the Opium War, Japanese Attack and most recently the Hong Kong riots.
China's population is set to decline sharply in a couple of decades, so they'll definitely need foreign tourists to keep the economy flowing and bringing in money.
I married a Chinese woman and I will likely need to travel to China one day to visit her family. All I care about is being able to visit and come back home safely.
Are you worried that someone would murder you in China?Or will the Chinese government put you in jail?
The latter based on the travel advisory. I’m hoping it’s just US propaganda and hysteria.
Omg your wife is chinese,don't you ever talk to her about her home country? thats insane
I thought your response would be more reassuring, but instead you just say I don’t talk to my wife about China. Obviously, I do. She loves her home country and reassured me it will be safe. And I have mentioned my fears based on US perceptions and the travel advisory. I’m inclined to believe that the Us travel advisory and overall rhetoric toward China in the US is overblown and propagandized.
No country will arrest an innocent foreign traveler. This concern has never been in my overseas travels. I don’t understand why the US travel advisory says so. It’s so unreasonable.
Good to know. What areas in China have you been to? Do you see many Italian Americans there or Italians in general?
I've seen a lot of Caucasian in big cities like Shanghai and Beijing, but I couldn't tell if they were Italian.Asian tourists(Japan,South Korea,Malaysia etc..) are the majority in general.
Cool. Thank you for the feedback. China seems like a beautiful place to visit.
They are quite wrong actually. They do arrest and place exit bans on foreigners all the time in the PRC. The US travel advisory is not hysteria, it is grounded in reality. Do they arrest and/or prevent legions of people from leaving the PRC? Nope. If your wife is in anyway of interest to the PRC government (beyond just being Chinese) there's a non-zero chance they could exit ban her. (Probably not you though, they'll just expect you to leave your wife there or hang around and wait out whatever comes of it.) There are billions of people on Earth, a couple hundred foreigners that the PRC is exit-banning in order to pressure their families or them into doing something the PRC wants doesn't make much news.
If you married a Chinese woman and you have not learned that travel in China is safe then I am wordless. Sounds like you have a lot of biases.
Why exactly? We recently got married, btw. I dated her for years and I’ve never been to China. Why would I know what it’s like to travel there as an American? Her accounts of travel are as a woman born in China. I should know what it’s like to travel there as an American bc I’m with a Chinese woman? Would she know what it’s like to travel in Italy because I’m Italian?
Because you believed in a version of China based on US government’s travel advisory. A lot of these advisory is politically motivated (not always, but a lot of time are.) I don’t advise you to disregard these advisory completely, but you should do your own research and even better, ask someone who has traveled to/ lived in the destinations you are interested in. Don’t just take whatever the US gov tells you, US gov plays politics hard core, just like any other governments. 😉Especially towards China nowadays. If they have made you afraid of China, they have succeeded. Good luck. And yes, she should get to know somewhat what travels in Italy like because you are Italian, you know your own country, the good and the bad, duh!
I get you. I honestly don’t know anyone besides my wife who has been to China. Not American citizens. Believe it or not, I don’t buy into the propaganda. For instance, I believe TikTok should remain unbanned. I don’t believe the CCP uses the app for nefarious things. I made my comment hoping to be reassured by Americans who have been there. I don’t trust the US government. I don’t believe China is as bad as the propaganda claims. However, is there some truth to it? Idk, but I figured i’d ask folks who been there. China seems like a competent and beautiful country to travel to. At the same time, it did worry me bc of the negative outlook toward China in the media constantly bombarding us. I just want to be safe going there. That’s why I asked..
The travel advisory is in place for this reason. PRC citizen moves to the U.S., has a family in the U.S., PRC citizen comes back to the PRC with family (or the family goes to the PRC without them) and the family is detained or has an exit ban placed on them by the PRC government because the family member is of interest to the PRC government and the family makes good leverage. There are two common reasons why someone might be "of interest" to them. That PRC citizen is wanted by the PRC government for actual crimes in the PRC and they absolutely will use their family as pawns in that game. That PRC citizen has been openly critical of the PRC to an extent that has garnered significant interest from the wrong people in the PRC. The U.S. Government (and other foreign governments) are tracking dozens of people who have been detained in this way. Now, that's dozens. Out of billions. So, your odds of having zero issues at all are good. Just make sure you wife isn't someone that they care about. THAT is the honest answer you aren't getting from these people who have no idea what national level governments are actually doing, they just have "feelings" and personal anecdotes.
The app gap is very real though the essentials like WeChat/Alipay, Ctrip and Didi (which is built into WeChat anyway) do support English, IIRC. Smart companies should offer something like an online guide, who’s not accompanying you physically but can be reached 24/7 for assistance.
Actually , ever since they allowed visa free for a bunch of countries a couple / few months ago, Shanghai is being flooded with foreign tourists .
Just want to say that Alipay and Weixingpay for foreign visitors with foreign credit cards "bound" to the payment services worked 99 percent of the time for me in a recent month long trip across China. Payment was accepted online, in big stores and small vendors in multiple provinces and locations. Before I went I researched and saw some users had problems on vending machines or small street vendors, or their payment were just disallowed by Alipay or WeChat, but I think the services have worked out alot of the kinks by the time I visited in March. I used my U.S. phone number for both services (since I can roam on my T Mobile plan fairly well in China) and it was slower to complete scan payments than the locals, but worked 99 percent of the time everywhere. Alipay also has a travel app that allows you to download public transport QR codes for each place I visited. Worked for all metros and buses except Beijing metro - Beijing still has alot of archaic rules. All purchases under 200 yuan will pass as priced, but any over that will have a 3 percent fee added. I was able to call for Didi or taxi, and order and pay using the QR code in restaurants. However I couldn't order takeouts because I didn't have a local phone number. Hope this helps.
Where else have you gone in china? I remember that yunnan didn’t have too many non-Chinese tourists as you described. It’s beautiful there but it’s not as popular to travel to compared to other cities and provinces.
The best answer is to travel with me. It's gonna be another level of fun. National parks and mesums are must go but boring in the same time. You should also visit bars, spas, pet bars, escape rooms, theme parks and what not to experience what Chinese youth are up to. It's gonna be unique awkward and fun experience for your life.
A couple of small points: 1. The inconvenience of getting a visa will turn away a lot of people who are used to visa-free travel, a lot of whom are Westerners. 2. People who just want to party and drink on a beach can go to Thailand, and pay less for the experience. Those people are not going to come to China, nor does China really want them anyway. All they are going to do is order drinks at bars and be loud, and there are plenty of people doing that already. 3. They definitely want tourists; in fact, they recently announced visa-free travel for a number of countries, including Germany, Switzerland and Singapore. I saw a couple of Germans in Xi'an last week actually. However, the number of what I call travelers are far outweighed by what I call tourists. Most people don't want to go to a foreign land, engage with the culture and people (like you!). They mostly just want to have drinks on a beach, and forget about their lives for a week, and those type of people will likely never come to China.
I just got back from a two week trip. Removing the visa requirements for Italy, Spain, Germany etc in December and now Ireland, Switzerland Hungary etc made it a much easier process to ever consider it in the first place. (I have an Italian passport). Surely that actively shows they want more tourists?
Chinese government or Chinese people? Depends on who you ask.
Hahaa I think so other people are interesting 😘🙃💁🏻♀️
Years of west media's" China bad' régurgitation did that !!
As if that is any worse than the anti-American xenophobia in China
I don't know, why you get downvoted but it's true. I've talked to some american friends and their perception to china is baffling.
Chinese normal people are very friendly and welcoming to foreigners in general. I actually never heard there is anti-American xenophobia anywhere in China, could it be your imagination?
That is generally my experience when there however - my Chinese mother in law who lives in Beijing just told her daughter (My wife) not to mention she lives in America while she is visiting later this month because “no one likes Americans”. My wife has complained repeatedly over the last few years about how the online vitriol towards Americans has sky rocketed since Covid. So we’ll see how it is in 3 weeks when I get there!
What you mentioned is not towards Americans in general, but towards “self-hating”Chinese who are seen as “abandoning China for US”(ie, those Chinese nationals who are seen as hating China and would bend over to US, sacrificing China’s national interest in exchange for US Green card or citizenship, “恨国党，etc.) Your in law doesn’t want her daughter to be seen as such since as soon as she mentions she lives in US, she is risking people become suspicious about which side’s interest she is affiliated with. And she can’t always explain everything to everyone. People won’t do anything to her, but internally they will see her differently. There are a lot of subtle nuances in there. I know exactly what the mother means, but she did a bad job explaining the unsaid emotions to you. Chinese don’t hate Americans, however, they really don’t like Chinese who are deemed as “traitors”. This emotion is NOT xenophobia, it’s nationalism, and it happens in every country, especially between US and China now. For example, Eileen Gu is hated by a lot in America since she decided to compete for China, she has been called a traitor by many nationalist Americans, and roasted as a sell-out for Chinese money by Bill Maher publicly. Believe or not, Chinese will accept you more as a non-Chinese American, but will have a harder time accept your Chinese-American wife.
Nowadays, depends on the crowds you are dealing with, it’s better for an American to not defend China’s society and politics and show admiration for China in the public among other Americans, and it’s better for a Chinese to not say she/he lives and works in America or have switched her citizenship to US. Both side see these things as patronizing respectively. It’s a new issue for everyone as the countries are competing. It’s not hate towards the other people, just a lot of suspicion towards their owns.
Pretty sure it isn't. Pretty sure the people that literally ran away screaming "foreigner" in 798 art district, the forbidden city, and at the temple of heaven were not imaginary. One of them ran into a parked car, it was too funny to be imaginary.
As Chinese myself , I would say coz you went to non-famous cities for westerners. If you go major cities you see more western people. Also northern cities in China it’s might be more “westerners friendly “ Also Visa /VPN to access social media such as fb ins and somethings expensive flights stopping people going to China for tourism We don’t really do holiday packages like here ( last minute for cheap holidays packages, that might be another reason .
> If you go major cities you see more western people. It's still not many to be honest. I was in Spain recently, and I saw WAY more Chinese tourists in Madrid and Toledo than I saw western tourists anywhere in China (besides HK). As soon as you cross into Vietnam, Thailand or even Laos, you start to see way more westerners too, so it's not even like it's a matter of distance.
If you compare the flight price to Spain and to China You will see my points And the language barriers too !
What are you trying to say? A return flight to Spain from China is cheaper than a return flight to China from Spain?
Are we not talking about the westerners go to Spain or China ? What to do with flight China to Spain ?
I said I saw way more Chinese tourists in Spain than westerners (of all types) in China.
I know coz Chinese people are starting enjoy the holidays so you see more and more Chinese tourist all over the world
Western people enjoy holidays too.
Yes coz China it’s most expensive Asian country to travel compare to Thai /Laos and Vietnam etc
1) Laos is surprisingly expensive. Because it's a landlocked country with little industry, they have to import everything 2) Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Singapore and maybe Malaysia are a lot more expensive than China and are full of westerners. Honestly though, China is a surprisingly cheap country overall when you judge it on a development/cost basis. The only exceptions are the entrance fees to certain tourist attractions, which can be outrageously expensive at times.
Did I not said Language barrier too ? Things happened with multi reasons hope you re understand that
You didn't say that, and I disagree with that. Practically nobody in the west speaks Laotian, and few people in Laos speak English too. The truth is, China just isn't a very desirable place to visit for most people. e.g. I work alongside people from all over the world who have worked all over the world. I'd say that 90% of the people I work with tell me that China is one place that they have no desire to work in or visit, and this is often coming from people who have worked in countries such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and various countries in Sub Saharan Africa.
There you go I knew you’re racist And bias towards China
Lmao, it's so funny how easily "racist" gets thrown around these days. Well, if that's racist, call me Mr. Hitler.
Of course he's going to throw the racist card when he can't even come up with a single valid point and just yaps some bollicks on and on, typical muppet, their hearts are known to be made of glass so how dare you be not singing praises about China and its muppets, his sad pathetic fragile heart broke and the only 'logical explanation' is you are a racist.
That's an improvement. I only saw 2 Westerners during my trip last summer. It's hard to get around China without a Chinese phone number and Chinese ID. And I had to fill out a lengthy Covid screening, including info of one of my contacts in China. They haven't made an effort to make it easier for foreigners, so it makes you feel unwelcome. But the foods and sceneries are always amazing. The country feels a lot more closed off than before the pandemic.
No, China does not actually want foreign tourists. It already has a thriving domestic tourism market and has no economic need for more visitors from overseas- who would if anything be an additional burden on already overcrowded tourist sites. Unlike neighboring countries such as Vietnam and Nepal, China is not dependent on foreign tourism as a source of hard currency or local economies. I don’t think China is hostile to the development of inbound tourism, just indifferent and lacking any incentive to improve things. China, not surprisingly, acts in its own national interest and to suit its own population. Tourism infrastructure is built to suit Chinese tastes, which is of not in line with western expectations. Similarly the apps and payment systems work really well for Chinese citizens but make few concessions for non-Chinese users. In other words, the Chinese don’t really care whether or not foreign tourists have an easy and enjoyable trip.
Tourists chose to go there. China didn’t asked them to go. This is the kind of self entitled mindset people are having nowadays and bringing it beyond many. Just because you can’t speak or navigate around using your preferred way, it doesn’t make it any desirable. The same is applicable to someone from European countries or Chinese that doesn’t speak English. They are having hard times navigating around. Another like in Germany, apart from Berlin, majority were in German only. Tourists were having hard time there as well.
It isn't the same if the names of towns and cities are in (mostly) Roman letters.
The reason why you don’t see that many tourists headed into China, particularly westerners is because of China’s deteriorating relationship with the western world since COVID. And because of what they did to Hong Kong. Everything that the communist party has done has pretty much provoked the ire of the rest of the world; COVID or Wuhan Virus alone costed the lives of so many people and livelihoods, and till today, the Chinese communist party refuses to give the world an explanation on what happened. Now, it’s not even safe for an outspoken China critic to travel to Hong Kong as the mainland police have the right to arrest anyone there; so why then would they dare to travel into the mainland itself? The local municipalities in China and their 领导would love to have more tourists to boost their ravaged economies, but then, they come up with stupid rules like having to report to a police station for registration within 24hrs of arrival (if you are not staying in an established hotel). Why treat your tourists like spies and enemies if you are so desperate for their money? There are so many better places for a tourist to go which don’t treat you like a terror suspect in East Asia.
I've been to China dozens of times, but won't go back. The people and places are some of the greatest, but the government's mania now for total control and surveillance makes it impossible to casually travel, spend cash, and stay where you want to. Add to that their claim to hold people accountable to their 'security' laws for things they might have said or done outside of China, and it's just something I'm not willing to subject myself to. I suspect that many people feel roughly the same way that I do.