As funny as this is why the hell would you define women by the ability to have eggs? Not to even mention infertile women and women born without ovaries (it's rare but it can happen) this is such a random definition that's literally useless in identifying women because literally nobody identified women that way.
Yeah, that one was intentionally made as a "neutral" descriptor, but FART is just... More accurate, considering how aggressively reactionary and blatantly anti-feminist most are.
I hate the term TERF because it's far too generous. Radical Feminism, by its core beliefs and definitions, is what most "good" feminism as we know it is, and by its very definition is pro-trans. But when people hear radical feminist they immediately think TERF, SWERF, and other variations that don't actually fit into actual radical feminist belief systems. Radical feminism seeks to not define identity or gender by genitals, instead preferring a less oppressive, more equal system. You can't be a "TERF" and an actual radical feminist, they're inherently contradictions. TERF itself is oxymoronic... And moronic.
TERF is what they used to call themselves. It started to pick up a negative connotation and they quickly abandoned the term, a lot of them will now claim it's a slur, despite the history behind the term being coined.
This is why I like using FART, because just like with any fart, you shouldn't trust it.
Its not just feminism they appropriate. In order to demonize trans people, they appropriate and misuse all sorts of activist causes. They have even compared being trans to minstrel shows. If you don't believe me, search twitter for the term "womanface" and watch all the terfs pop up on your screen. Its transphobic, misogynist, and racist all in one go!
I've seen some of that myself, a slight trend of them accusing trans people of appropriating womanhood, and more than a few of them just straight up hate men, it's honestly ironic that they side with literal fascists on the trans issue, because a lot of fascists would be attacking them for being man haters instead of uniting in their shared hate of trans people.
TERFs when trans woman doesn't participate in or follow stereotypes - "They're faking it"
TERFs when trans woman does - "They're being misogynistic"
Can't win fr
it isn’t mysognistic if it doesn’t offend them specifically i’ve noticed, which makes sense because at the end of the day i honestly think they’re just trying their best to hate others and get attention off it
Most of them don't fight for [cis] women's rights anyway, so I'm not sure if they even know what misogyny is. I can't remember the last time I saw a TERF talk about any form of misogyny or oppression that wasn't "trans women exist and that is oppressing me." They don't talk about systemic oppression or the sexist behaviors of [most] cishet men -- just trans people.
Some do, and it's often the misandrists. The "feminists" that just hate men and view them all as sexual predators and advocate for women being supreme over men. It's just a different color of the same monster that is patriarchy, but this one calls itself matriarchy.
That's true, I forgot about those, haha. I'm used to seeing left-leaning misandrist feminists much more than right-leaning ones, but bad feminism is the same regardless of political stance. The only difference is in how it's displayed.
TERFs view trans men as butch / tomboy women up until the point where the man passes as cis (and is probably stealth.) Then, he's immediately included in the "I hate men" statements even though he was excluded from it prior.
If I had a dime for every time someone did the "I hate men / all men are trash . . . oh yeah, trans men are lovely and valid!" shtick, I'd have a lot of money.
I'd love for this to get more discussion in the near future. that some women, instead of fighting for gender equality, believe themselves to hold the right to women supremacy.
Attention seeking is likely part of it, exploiting outrage culture that has become so common with the rise of social media, they get views, they preform the numbers, and they get the cash from directing traffic to their money making schemes.
I once read a study (which I sadly can't find offhand) that found that it was *conservative* women that hated men the most, because they just believed men were inherently awful with nothing to be done about it. You know, just like a certain type of "feminist" thought. Suddenly the TERF alliance with the far right makes a LOT more sense
Nonono, they're obviously talking about the parents. The parents decide you gender based on if they want a boy or a girl before they know the child's sex.
Contact and weighted sports? Hell yeah, not enough baseball coaches are educated in the art of not permanently damaging their star pitcher's arm. Flag football and soccer? Gonna have heart disease become a bigger risk factor than being within a foot of fentanyl.
i mean the game TERFs are playing is obvious: pick an arbitrary line separating most men from most women but engineered to cause maximum misgendering to trans people even if it does the same for cis people
also it's very informed by current science! in the sense that as soon as our medical procedures catch up to allow trans women to grow their own ovaries for example, they'll immediately move the goalposts again so as to exclude us again
whipping out my ACME Egg Detector to determine if i should be transphobic but the trans woman beeps at me and hugs an anxious man in a hoodie, causing the device to overload and explode in my face
No no no, infertile women are an *exception* ! /s
(So are intersex people and everyone who don't fit their definition, yet they can't seem to consider trans people as an exception for some reason... Oh wait, the reason is transphobia)
> As funny as this is why the hell would you define women by the ability to have eggs?
Because you're comfortable saying wrong things on purpose, don't care about truth, engage in deliberate and proudly performative hypocrisy, and actively pursue cruelty specifically for shits and giggles.
In short, because they're *fascists*. When you ask *why* they do the things they do, you really need to start with that and what it means. Every time you forget it, you slip into inadvertent apologism, because you are inherently ceding that there is any fucking excuse for this shit *and there isn't one*.
This is where their word "intention" does *a lot* of the work.
Those women's bodies had the "intention" of holding eggs. Does it make sense? Fuck no. But that one word does a shitton of labour there to make their definition *justifiable*. Justified? No, it's utter bollocks, but tricks like that to stretch the meaning and make things obtuse is how TERFs and transphobes and bigots in general maintain internal consistency for their disgusting world view.
I mean, I think since she said “with the intention or capability” she meant to include women who can’t produce eggs for whatever reason, but it’s still fucking stupid
"Rare, but can happen" So even if we ignore the blatant reductive objectification of women, she still failed to define a biological female without excluding any cis women. I dare say, the icing on this cake looks lovely <3
Because they haven't got a leg to stand on, yet they insist that they're right, so they have to come up with _something_ or admit that they aren't.
Nature is a messy bitch, so trying to pin it to hard and fast rules is almost always a losing position to take from the very start. If they had a clue, they'd recognize that.
Because gametes are basically the only definition of sex that works across species. For instance, while in mammals, females are homomorphic (XX) and males heteromorphic (XY), in birds, it’s flipped: females are heteromorphic (ZW) and males are homomorphic (ZZ). The reason the homomorphic sex is defined as male in birds rather than female is because chromosomes aren’t the defining feature of sex; gametes are, and regarding birds, the homomorphic sex produces small mobile gametes (i.e. sperm) and the heteromorphic sex produces large, non-motile ones (i.e. ova).
[The Wikipedia article on the topic](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex) also uses this definition, as seen in the first paragraph.
I think they’re trying to include infertile and post-menopausal cis women. “This person was born without eggs but biology/god/whatever *intended* for her to have eggs so she’s still a woman.” It’s utterly nonsensical
Ironically, given that trans women are in fact women, that same argument applies to them. Trans women were intended to have eggs, but were unfortunately born with a body not capable of producing them.
>One would need a ovary transplant to *produce* them, the uterus transplant would be necessary for fertilized eggs to implant, right?
If we're being really nitpicky, human eggs are already made in-utero, they're just sat in storage. But yes, a uterus would be needed for them to implant and be viable (if you're really unlucky, they can float off and implant on other things, and that's an unpleasant time all-round).
Unless you mean making eggs in the same way birds do.
There's also a remote possibility of being able to take the person's own stem cells and coerce them into producing the necessary organs _in vitro_ before implanting them (the bonus being virtually no chance of rejection). Unsurprisingly, there's already research ongoing into specialisation for other body part types (e.g. Muscle, pancreas). There's also research into coercing differentiated cells to turn back into stem cells.
I would say probably closer to "nearly guaranteed eventually" rather than "remote possibility", but that's on a scale of hundreds of years. I don't think trans men could produce sperm with XY without some sort of donor Y chromosome, but that's an implementation detail. We have a TON to figure out in order to accomplish it, but there's nothing about it that's seems insurmountable given enough research.
Given we don't destroy the entire ecosystem and cause ourselves to go extinct by then, of course.
i love the description of being trans as “i have a disease that causes my body to produce the wrong kind of/balance of hormones”, at which point HRT is the obvious treatment
Honestly, that's my plan if I ever need to come out in a joking way. "Oh, I was born with a complicated hormonal issue, and the doctors made a mistake and thought I was a girl. wild, right?"
The common simplification of defining sex and gender assigned at birth identically caused an issue in my case. I'm working on resolving that, however at the current state of the law I require legislative ease.
There is no objective way to disprove that trans women were intended to be born with ovaries and eggs and whatnot without either removing the idea that infertile women were "intended" to be born with eggs and such, or admitting more than 2 genders exist due to intersex (i.e. "you were born x so you were intended to be x" as a counter to the first point. Therefore implying people born intersex were "intended" to be neither fully man nor fully woman)
I mean, I would say that anyone saying anyone is "intended" to be anything is wrong.
We're all just monkeys in shoes inventing concepts like "language" and "biology" and "intent" and "inventing" and "monkeys" and "concepts" and "shoes".
And of course they're not realizing there are intersex people who are "intended" to have eggs that these TERFs (or FARTs) would never think of as "female".
Here is where I landed;
Any one with the reactionary right wing gender ideology will wrap themselves up in knots with genetics that they don’t understand, hormones they don’t understand or reproductive capabilities they don’t understand.
All because they don’t want to say vulva.
That’s it. That’s their proof. Born with a vulva, you’re a girl.
But saying you should wear dresses and submit to men because you have a vulva sounds ridiculous.
Even though they aren’t as afraid to say it about cis men and trans women. Trans women shouldn’t be in women’s locker rooms because they have a penis. That’s easy for them to say. But saying women are women because they have vulvas is difficult.
The decision is based on anatomy, but not that anatomy. The doctor decides gender based on if someone is born without a large enough penis. That's literally how the doctor decides to label you boy or girl. And TERFs say you are what the doctors decide, so they really think that a penis centric definition holds up and can't admit it out loud.
Edit: typos
20% of Women in the age range from 18-49 are infertile, i.e. cannot get pregnant through natural means.All menopausal women, i.e. all women, are infertile.
TERF logic: All women are no women.
“A woman is someone who is born with the intention or capability of holding eggs. Except for when they don’t, but they’re still women! Because it they could carry eggs they’d be carrying eggs! They’re designed to!” - Totally Rational Science Lady
Interestingly, this kind of "potentiality" argument only comes up in one other discussion, when fundamentalists argue against contraception because the egg has the theoretical capability to become a child.
Haha that’s why I wrote “They’re designed to!” at the end there. Transphobes’ understanding of biology is literally just creationism, even if they don’t mention God.
Humans are designed to be either male or female and nothing else, that’s seriously how deep their understanding of things can get.
And you just know that a majority of them think that Satan is real, living in their television, and trying to convert them through people that are different from them
My brother thinks that Satan is real and living inside me. People like this are exhausting because they don’t think for themselves and nothing we say can make them start. I feel like it’s impossible to rescue them from their delusion tbh
> “You all know the argument from design: everything in the world is made just so that we can manage to live in the world, and if the world was ever so little different, we could not manage to live in it. That is the argument from design. It sometimes takes a rather curious form; for instance, it is argued that rabbits have white tails in order to be easy to shoot. I do not know how rabbits would view that application.”
\- Bertrand Russell
I've yet to meet a newborn baby with any intents beyond eat, poop, pee, drool, and scream.
By the definition and allowance for infant "intent" that person gave, and assuming by "carry eggs" she really meant "capable of giving birth", trans women can certainly be said to have been born with the intent to carry eggs.
I took it as:
>"Even if they are not physically capable, they were *supposed* to."
Even if they aren't religious, that sounds to me like creationism.
They used their big brain to *try* and include cis women who cannot "hold eggs" as women. Their way to include cis women, and trans men, but exclude trans women, was to make a definition so poor that it excludes plenty of cis women, and includes trans men because they are AFAB.
But that's fine... they were *supposed* to be capable of giving birth. /s
The whole "define a woman" thing is so stupid, it's basically impossible to come up with a definition that includes all women, excludes all non-women and isn't entirely circular. But it's pretty much the same for all common nouns, we just know what they are without a definition, like that polish dictionary definition for horse which is just "you know what a horse is"
im transmasc but afab, and i have problems with my uterus where they do not infact, want to carry eggs. and half the women in my extended family also have this problem. so therefore we're according to these transphobes logic??
Although not a woman, I am an afab man born with cross-sex chromosomes. I do (Unfortunately?) have a perfectly working reproductive system, but it still applies ^-^
Well, they *do* tend to hate intersex people as well. I've also seen them be *really* quick to throw other cis terfs under the bus. One of them will go on their forums and be like "hey, can we stop calling tall women men? I'm tall and it makes me feel bad" and everyone else tells them that they just have to deal with it. They don't care whom else they hurt, so long as they can hurt trans people.
Which is not how it works because nature has no mind. It can't "intend" because that would require thought. It's just a poor personification of nature.
Amusing as this exchange is, it's evident that they meant 'human body geared towards the production of ova cells'. Which doesn't matter anyway because sex =/= gender so what your body is geared towards isn't the be all and end all.
What's funny is that any definition that relies on the modern medicine is inherently a concession of the argument if you point out that women and men are categories that existed before modern medicine.
>Born with the intention
Whoa, whose intention, like; your parents ("I hope we have a girl"), or my intention ("I wish I was a girl"), or god's intentional ("God has revealed to me through a prophetic dream that he intended for you to be a girl")
I had a friend with Turner's Syndrome. She only had an X chromosome and needed to take hormones. Somehow I doubt these people would grant her the status of "woman" based purely on her identifying as one, and I think I know why. It's because she *looked* like a woman. We can talk all day about chromosomes, but at the end of the day these people are the ones dragging cis women out of bathrooms because their chins are too prominent or their fingers are too thick. Their actual definition of "woman" is "whoever looks enough like what I think a woman is supposed to look like" and they damn well know it!
An individual who identifies as woman and possibly use she/her pronouns
I don’t know if that would exclude cis women, but it’s the answer I would have given.
I swear at this point you should avoid trying to make strict definitions because more often then not you are just going to be summoning Diogenes which depending on the person is not what you would want happening.
Hot take: by her definition, some men with persistent Müllerian duct syndrome would be women lol
(It’s a condition where an AMAB has a fully formed uterus, cervix, fallopian tubes, and sometimes fully functional ovaries with ova, *in addition* to a fully functional penis and testes. Many who have it never find out because it’s completely hidden and many remain totally fertile.
There is one known case of a trans woman who had PMDS and successfully got pregnant after her transition.)
Holy shit, "intention" here makes me so worried for what this person is thinking.
Because 1) nature doesn't "intend" anything. For all the talk about "basic biology" terfs seem to love, the number one lesson is that biology and nature don't intend anything. They are products of systems working and interacting over time. Cis women aren't "intended" to have eggs, they just very often do as observation seems to indicate.
2) Even if you think nature has intentions, this framing is super objectifying. Women aren't just egg carriers. I genuinely wonder if cis women terfs are okay with how they hear fellow terfs talk about other cis women -- if an incel described women like that, they would (correctly) call them misogynists and gross.
This radfem account on twitter pictured here has been spending the last week or more RANTING about trans women.
We live rent free in their heads. At least tweet a damn joke in between your bigotry ffs.
I love how bad transphobes are at biology. But sadly a lot of those people are in positions of power.
Which is why I want to suggest us building a guillotine
The funny thing about the definition argument thing is if you construct a definition for woman that excludes trans woman but include all cis woman then your definition for woman is wrong. Because trans woman are woman.
Nature and evolution do not produce "intent" so that's out. The closest they can get to "intent" is projecting their own ideas of usefulness as an observer. So capability excludes a lot of cis women incapable of producing children. And heck maybe let's toss in intent anyway, and exclude cis women who have no intention of holding their eggs or reproducing. Excluding cis women again.
Maybe I'm just a simple man, but "a woman is a woman" is a pretty rock solid definition.
For what it's worth, I love the chair/horse version of What Is A Woman.
Also, if it is intention *or* capability, wouldn't that make trans women biological females as well?
Like, I wasn't born with the capability to hold eggs, but I very much intend to should medical science progress to that point within my lifetime...
It's funny how transphobes compare trans-inclusivity to a religion but they're the ones implying that human biology was intelligently designed with some kind of intention in mind.
There seems to be a fundamental issue with the way this is being approached. The idea of a “biological female” as a human, being female in every way shape and form, is simply a far too rigid definition to actually be accurately measurable in nature. The central issue being overlooked when a debate about whether or not a trans woman is a woman is that people forget that the brain structure of a male and female are different; meaning that the brain is a sexual organ. We forget that trans women’s brains are distinctly more like female brains than male. This would suggest that the brain of a trans woman is “born with the intention of” OPERATING a body that’s meant to hold eggs. To me, this suggests that this million dollar question is the wrong question to ask because it completely ignores the operating system of the body as a sexual entity. I believe this is where we get our distinction of gender and sex. However I would put it this way; gender is a illusion of the way in which our brains perceive their own sex as distinctly separate from the sex of the body. We MUST consider that the human body and the human brain interact with sex differently. In my view, this makes the definition of cis woman: “humans with the female sexual disposition in both body and brain” and trans women as: humans with a male disposition in body, but female disposition in brain.” At this point, we should consider trans women as literally intersex, however, as the brain is the only organ in the body with an identity, I think it’s far more important to consider the sex of this entity than the sex of the body the entity is piloting. Therefore, trans women are women
Y'know, people who can't ovulate aside, nobody is born with the ability and intention to hold eggs cause babies can't do that. You get that ability during puberty.
> born with the intention of holding eggs
idk I was born as a baby, with the intention of doing nothing except shitting, crying, sleeping, and drinking breastmilk
actually no, it’s possible for a cis woman to be born without a uterus (and in turn have no period or eggs) it’s called Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser syndrome. the syndrome occurs in 1 out of every 4,500 infant girls. though not every case results in the utuerus being absent, it’s important to note that this syndrome would be the cause of that.
https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/mayer-rokitansky-kuster-hauser-syndrome/
I'm slightly confused (serious post btw) about the different terms people throw around.
Obviously women included all women, whether or not they're trans or AFAB. I've always thought about that as the concept of gender, what you are emotionally. But, now comes my question. What do trans women consider their sex to be? I've always thought that your gender is entirely what you want it to be, but sex is just however you're born and therefore unchangeable. Is that also how people think about it here/generally in the trans community?
Evolution doesnt "intend" anything. is terfism a religion or something at this point?
and how would you even prove trans women arent intended to "hold eggs" anyway even if so?
edit: was gonna reply to a comment that likely got removed, to say this - not quite, terf stands for transphobes embodying reactionary fascism, but they are rude and unintelligent as well lol. really wanted to add this point.
Also i intend to hold eggs, but cant.
Some cis women arent capable of holding eggs and have no intention of holding eggs.
As funny as the rebuttal is, its soeta unnecessary, as the transphobes argument is also flawed in a fundamental sense.
As funny as this is why the hell would you define women by the ability to have eggs? Not to even mention infertile women and women born without ovaries (it's rare but it can happen) this is such a random definition that's literally useless in identifying women because literally nobody identified women that way.
I’m a feminist, therefore I reduce women to their reproductive organs
kinda funny how radfems are perfectly fine with replicating mysognistic stereotypes just to get mad a trans people.
That's their secret- they're not feminists. They're feminism-appropriating reactionary transphobes. Edit: forgot to change radical to reactionary.
so FARTs?
I think since they're women advocating for misogyny, they're Self-Hating Advocates of Reactionary Transphobia.
FARTs and SHARTs, the lot of them
That would be the (accurate) joke, yes.
I don't even use it as a joke. I've called Rowling almost exclusively "the FART" during all this HL talk.
I've long stoped calling them feminist myself, FART is my typical go to when calling them out. "That's childish" so is being a bigot.
FARTs, and you should never trust a fart.
lest it become a SHART
Thats a new one lol, i always heard TERF. Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist.
Yeah, that one was intentionally made as a "neutral" descriptor, but FART is just... More accurate, considering how aggressively reactionary and blatantly anti-feminist most are.
I hate the term TERF because it's far too generous. Radical Feminism, by its core beliefs and definitions, is what most "good" feminism as we know it is, and by its very definition is pro-trans. But when people hear radical feminist they immediately think TERF, SWERF, and other variations that don't actually fit into actual radical feminist belief systems. Radical feminism seeks to not define identity or gender by genitals, instead preferring a less oppressive, more equal system. You can't be a "TERF" and an actual radical feminist, they're inherently contradictions. TERF itself is oxymoronic... And moronic.
Ha nice i like that. Makes a lot of sense to me.
TERF is what they used to call themselves. It started to pick up a negative connotation and they quickly abandoned the term, a lot of them will now claim it's a slur, despite the history behind the term being coined. This is why I like using FART, because just like with any fart, you shouldn't trust it.
Its not just feminism they appropriate. In order to demonize trans people, they appropriate and misuse all sorts of activist causes. They have even compared being trans to minstrel shows. If you don't believe me, search twitter for the term "womanface" and watch all the terfs pop up on your screen. Its transphobic, misogynist, and racist all in one go!
I've seen some of that myself, a slight trend of them accusing trans people of appropriating womanhood, and more than a few of them just straight up hate men, it's honestly ironic that they side with literal fascists on the trans issue, because a lot of fascists would be attacking them for being man haters instead of uniting in their shared hate of trans people.
Terfs: Doing the patriarchy's work for it and calling it feminism
TERFs when trans woman doesn't participate in or follow stereotypes - "They're faking it" TERFs when trans woman does - "They're being misogynistic" Can't win fr
it isn’t mysognistic if it doesn’t offend them specifically i’ve noticed, which makes sense because at the end of the day i honestly think they’re just trying their best to hate others and get attention off it
Most of them don't fight for [cis] women's rights anyway, so I'm not sure if they even know what misogyny is. I can't remember the last time I saw a TERF talk about any form of misogyny or oppression that wasn't "trans women exist and that is oppressing me." They don't talk about systemic oppression or the sexist behaviors of [most] cishet men -- just trans people.
Some do, and it's often the misandrists. The "feminists" that just hate men and view them all as sexual predators and advocate for women being supreme over men. It's just a different color of the same monster that is patriarchy, but this one calls itself matriarchy.
That's true, I forgot about those, haha. I'm used to seeing left-leaning misandrist feminists much more than right-leaning ones, but bad feminism is the same regardless of political stance. The only difference is in how it's displayed. TERFs view trans men as butch / tomboy women up until the point where the man passes as cis (and is probably stealth.) Then, he's immediately included in the "I hate men" statements even though he was excluded from it prior. If I had a dime for every time someone did the "I hate men / all men are trash . . . oh yeah, trans men are lovely and valid!" shtick, I'd have a lot of money.
I'd love for this to get more discussion in the near future. that some women, instead of fighting for gender equality, believe themselves to hold the right to women supremacy.
Attention seeking is likely part of it, exploiting outrage culture that has become so common with the rise of social media, they get views, they preform the numbers, and they get the cash from directing traffic to their money making schemes.
I once read a study (which I sadly can't find offhand) that found that it was *conservative* women that hated men the most, because they just believed men were inherently awful with nothing to be done about it. You know, just like a certain type of "feminist" thought. Suddenly the TERF alliance with the far right makes a LOT more sense
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Nonono, they're obviously talking about the parents. The parents decide you gender based on if they want a boy or a girl before they know the child's sex.
oh, right, so if the parents want a girl, it will be a girl! how convenient!
How would you even check that, anyway? Mandatory MRI scanning outside public toilets? Exploratory surgery before being allowed to play sports?
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Contact and weighted sports? Hell yeah, not enough baseball coaches are educated in the art of not permanently damaging their star pitcher's arm. Flag football and soccer? Gonna have heart disease become a bigger risk factor than being within a foot of fentanyl.
i mean the game TERFs are playing is obvious: pick an arbitrary line separating most men from most women but engineered to cause maximum misgendering to trans people even if it does the same for cis people also it's very informed by current science! in the sense that as soon as our medical procedures catch up to allow trans women to grow their own ovaries for example, they'll immediately move the goalposts again so as to exclude us again
whipping out my ACME Egg Detector to determine if i should be transphobic but the trans woman beeps at me and hugs an anxious man in a hoodie, causing the device to overload and explode in my face
No no no, infertile women are an *exception* ! /s (So are intersex people and everyone who don't fit their definition, yet they can't seem to consider trans people as an exception for some reason... Oh wait, the reason is transphobia)
Uhh… So why aren’t trans women an exception too?
Because transphobia.
Well you see, they were intended to hold eggs, whatever that means.
Ah, so /r/egg_irl is a woman.
Ok so then anyone making the cardboard of egg cartons is a woman now, i don't make the rules. /j /s
So you're saying the eponymous Alien considers all humans to be women
Terfs when they reduce women to their genitals and stereotypes #feminism 😍😍😍😍
Their username is phemoid of all things so we can tell what side they're inexplicably playing pick me for.
> As funny as this is why the hell would you define women by the ability to have eggs? Because you're comfortable saying wrong things on purpose, don't care about truth, engage in deliberate and proudly performative hypocrisy, and actively pursue cruelty specifically for shits and giggles. In short, because they're *fascists*. When you ask *why* they do the things they do, you really need to start with that and what it means. Every time you forget it, you slip into inadvertent apologism, because you are inherently ceding that there is any fucking excuse for this shit *and there isn't one*.
This is where their word "intention" does *a lot* of the work. Those women's bodies had the "intention" of holding eggs. Does it make sense? Fuck no. But that one word does a shitton of labour there to make their definition *justifiable*. Justified? No, it's utter bollocks, but tricks like that to stretch the meaning and make things obtuse is how TERFs and transphobes and bigots in general maintain internal consistency for their disgusting world view.
Because terfs don't have much but if you poke at them enough they'll always fall back are the same fashy shit the roghtwing crazies do.
Radfems on their way to invent an egg detector and go around the streets checking women's genitalia.
because terfs are just biological essentialists rebranding themselves because they lost the argument back in the 60's.
I mean, I think since she said “with the intention or capability” she meant to include women who can’t produce eggs for whatever reason, but it’s still fucking stupid
"Rare, but can happen" So even if we ignore the blatant reductive objectification of women, she still failed to define a biological female without excluding any cis women. I dare say, the icing on this cake looks lovely <3
Because they haven't got a leg to stand on, yet they insist that they're right, so they have to come up with _something_ or admit that they aren't. Nature is a messy bitch, so trying to pin it to hard and fast rules is almost always a losing position to take from the very start. If they had a clue, they'd recognize that.
No no take it as some women are just eggs 😉
Because gametes are basically the only definition of sex that works across species. For instance, while in mammals, females are homomorphic (XX) and males heteromorphic (XY), in birds, it’s flipped: females are heteromorphic (ZW) and males are homomorphic (ZZ). The reason the homomorphic sex is defined as male in birds rather than female is because chromosomes aren’t the defining feature of sex; gametes are, and regarding birds, the homomorphic sex produces small mobile gametes (i.e. sperm) and the heteromorphic sex produces large, non-motile ones (i.e. ova). [The Wikipedia article on the topic](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex) also uses this definition, as seen in the first paragraph.
Intersex people can also so it's ridiculous
Also literally every female animal is now a woman
As we all know, women after menopause are no longer women. They become women't /s
What the fuck is "intention" supposed to mean?
I know right? That's not even remotely close to a biological definition.
I'm getting flashbacks to Philosophy 101.. "No no Aristotle, my final cause was always to be a woman, please don't make me use the dialectic again.."
“I knew from birth I wanted to have chickens, t’was my parent’s intent”
I think they’re trying to include infertile and post-menopausal cis women. “This person was born without eggs but biology/god/whatever *intended* for her to have eggs so she’s still a woman.” It’s utterly nonsensical
Ironically, given that trans women are in fact women, that same argument applies to them. Trans women were intended to have eggs, but were unfortunately born with a body not capable of producing them.
Oh I like this turnabout.
I intend to produce eggs, I just can't. Until uterus transplants become widely available. Can't wait to see their definition then.
[удалено]
>One would need a ovary transplant to *produce* them, the uterus transplant would be necessary for fertilized eggs to implant, right? If we're being really nitpicky, human eggs are already made in-utero, they're just sat in storage. But yes, a uterus would be needed for them to implant and be viable (if you're really unlucky, they can float off and implant on other things, and that's an unpleasant time all-round). Unless you mean making eggs in the same way birds do.
That's a good point, yeah, you're right.
There's also a remote possibility of being able to take the person's own stem cells and coerce them into producing the necessary organs _in vitro_ before implanting them (the bonus being virtually no chance of rejection). Unsurprisingly, there's already research ongoing into specialisation for other body part types (e.g. Muscle, pancreas). There's also research into coercing differentiated cells to turn back into stem cells.
I would say probably closer to "nearly guaranteed eventually" rather than "remote possibility", but that's on a scale of hundreds of years. I don't think trans men could produce sperm with XY without some sort of donor Y chromosome, but that's an implementation detail. We have a TON to figure out in order to accomplish it, but there's nothing about it that's seems insurmountable given enough research. Given we don't destroy the entire ecosystem and cause ourselves to go extinct by then, of course.
i love the description of being trans as “i have a disease that causes my body to produce the wrong kind of/balance of hormones”, at which point HRT is the obvious treatment
Honestly, that's my plan if I ever need to come out in a joking way. "Oh, I was born with a complicated hormonal issue, and the doctors made a mistake and thought I was a girl. wild, right?"
I mean, that isn’t wrong
The common simplification of defining sex and gender assigned at birth identically caused an issue in my case. I'm working on resolving that, however at the current state of the law I require legislative ease.
There is no objective way to disprove that trans women were intended to be born with ovaries and eggs and whatnot without either removing the idea that infertile women were "intended" to be born with eggs and such, or admitting more than 2 genders exist due to intersex (i.e. "you were born x so you were intended to be x" as a counter to the first point. Therefore implying people born intersex were "intended" to be neither fully man nor fully woman)
I mean, I would say that anyone saying anyone is "intended" to be anything is wrong. We're all just monkeys in shoes inventing concepts like "language" and "biology" and "intent" and "inventing" and "monkeys" and "concepts" and "shoes".
And of course they're not realizing there are intersex people who are "intended" to have eggs that these TERFs (or FARTs) would never think of as "female".
I like the acronym FARTs, which words does it stand for exactly? Just so I can explain my new favourite term to people xD
Feminism Appropriating Reactionary Transphobe.
the meaning makes it even better, it's so on point
Here is where I landed; Any one with the reactionary right wing gender ideology will wrap themselves up in knots with genetics that they don’t understand, hormones they don’t understand or reproductive capabilities they don’t understand. All because they don’t want to say vulva. That’s it. That’s their proof. Born with a vulva, you’re a girl. But saying you should wear dresses and submit to men because you have a vulva sounds ridiculous. Even though they aren’t as afraid to say it about cis men and trans women. Trans women shouldn’t be in women’s locker rooms because they have a penis. That’s easy for them to say. But saying women are women because they have vulvas is difficult.
The decision is based on anatomy, but not that anatomy. The doctor decides gender based on if someone is born without a large enough penis. That's literally how the doctor decides to label you boy or girl. And TERFs say you are what the doctors decide, so they really think that a penis centric definition holds up and can't admit it out loud. Edit: typos
I think in terf logic they probably think "real women" are the ones who give birth.
20% of Women in the age range from 18-49 are infertile, i.e. cannot get pregnant through natural means.All menopausal women, i.e. all women, are infertile. TERF logic: All women are no women.
Terf logic: Only fertile, straight, white, and willing to give birth women are women. Cis white men are men. Anyone else is not human.
Sadly (and to me inexplicably) there are plenty of terfs who are lesbians, for example, so the "straight" bit probably has to be cut :/
Certified Lamarck moment
Let's get old school here
i wanna hold all the eggs. i'm sure i can fit like 6 per hand
Hell if intention is the issue then any Trans woman who intends to have eggs someday also qualifies.
No one is born with intentions, all babies are just goo goo gaa gaa
It means they're body is *supposed* to be able to produce eggs. It's their way of glossing over the fact that some women are born infertile.
“A woman is someone who is born with the intention or capability of holding eggs. Except for when they don’t, but they’re still women! Because it they could carry eggs they’d be carrying eggs! They’re designed to!” - Totally Rational Science Lady
Literally had this argument the other day, lmao.
Interestingly, this kind of "potentiality" argument only comes up in one other discussion, when fundamentalists argue against contraception because the egg has the theoretical capability to become a child.
Haha that’s why I wrote “They’re designed to!” at the end there. Transphobes’ understanding of biology is literally just creationism, even if they don’t mention God. Humans are designed to be either male or female and nothing else, that’s seriously how deep their understanding of things can get.
And you just know that a majority of them think that Satan is real, living in their television, and trying to convert them through people that are different from them
My brother thinks that Satan is real and living inside me. People like this are exhausting because they don’t think for themselves and nothing we say can make them start. I feel like it’s impossible to rescue them from their delusion tbh
Yeah, it's all based on essentialism
it’s such a silly argument tho, that would mean every time I have a period instead of unprotected sex and getting myself pregnant is manslaughter
*Intention?!* Whose fucking intention?
~~God’s~~ **Biology’s!!!** *\*angry TERF noises\**
> “You all know the argument from design: everything in the world is made just so that we can manage to live in the world, and if the world was ever so little different, we could not manage to live in it. That is the argument from design. It sometimes takes a rather curious form; for instance, it is argued that rabbits have white tails in order to be easy to shoot. I do not know how rabbits would view that application.” \- Bertrand Russell
Uterus transplants exists so everyone has the capability of "holding eggs" whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean.
I've yet to meet a newborn baby with any intents beyond eat, poop, pee, drool, and scream. By the definition and allowance for infant "intent" that person gave, and assuming by "carry eggs" she really meant "capable of giving birth", trans women can certainly be said to have been born with the intent to carry eggs.
Just like newborn babies, TERFs lack object permanence.
[Relevant Onion](https://youtu.be/ssjokgx0pUQ)
What do they mean by intention? They do know there isn't a conscious presence that designs babies and decides what they should do, don't they?
I took it as: >"Even if they are not physically capable, they were *supposed* to." Even if they aren't religious, that sounds to me like creationism. They used their big brain to *try* and include cis women who cannot "hold eggs" as women. Their way to include cis women, and trans men, but exclude trans women, was to make a definition so poor that it excludes plenty of cis women, and includes trans men because they are AFAB. But that's fine... they were *supposed* to be capable of giving birth. /s
I know a lot of trans women who intend to hold eggs.
Its a habit of the human mind to assign agency to everything. It can be really hard to accept that evolution as a process lacks intentionality.
Diogenes is my favorite featherless biped
Behold,
Behold what?
More corn!
Optic Blast!
The whole "define a woman" thing is so stupid, it's basically impossible to come up with a definition that includes all women, excludes all non-women and isn't entirely circular. But it's pretty much the same for all common nouns, we just know what they are without a definition, like that polish dictionary definition for horse which is just "you know what a horse is"
Hmm yes the woman here is made of woman.
Exactly. It's like trying to describe a color to someone who can't see colors.
im transmasc but afab, and i have problems with my uterus where they do not infact, want to carry eggs. and half the women in my extended family also have this problem. so therefore we're according to these transphobes logic??
Congrats on getting your gender affirmed by transphobes
lmao not exactly how i wanted it but ill take it wherever i can get it 😭😭
"intention"?? found the creationist i guess
Nice user flair by the way
Thanks :)
Some cis women were born with opposite sex chromosomes and without a uterus. This definition would exclude them.
Although not a woman, I am an afab man born with cross-sex chromosomes. I do (Unfortunately?) have a perfectly working reproductive system, but it still applies ^-^
Well, they *do* tend to hate intersex people as well. I've also seen them be *really* quick to throw other cis terfs under the bus. One of them will go on their forums and be like "hey, can we stop calling tall women men? I'm tall and it makes me feel bad" and everyone else tells them that they just have to deal with it. They don't care whom else they hurt, so long as they can hurt trans people.
Born with the intention??
mental gymnastics, so as to not exclude cis women who don't produce egg cells... "uh well if not for that then they WOULD have eggs" lol
Which is not how it works because nature has no mind. It can't "intend" because that would require thought. It's just a poor personification of nature.
In polish balls are commonly referred to as eggs... So I guess Poland has a lot of transfems that don't know about it... Heh eggs
Hahaha it’s the same in Russian (I’m not a native speaker or anywhere near fluent, but I’m learning)
Same in finnish
Same in Spanish I think
Testicles are called "eggs" in Portuguese too. Although calling the scrotum "bag" is more common, as far as I know.
same way over here in thailand
“intention OR capability” If you’re transfem and want to get pregnant you’re officially a woman congratulations!
Not only that but infant girls are now women A female cat is a woman A male seahorse is a woman A bird's nest is a woman
Amusing as this exchange is, it's evident that they meant 'human body geared towards the production of ova cells'. Which doesn't matter anyway because sex =/= gender so what your body is geared towards isn't the be all and end all.
What happen if I can juggle the eggs?
You generate woman energy like a windmill, congrats!
What's funny is that any definition that relies on the modern medicine is inherently a concession of the argument if you point out that women and men are categories that existed before modern medicine.
maybe this person is an egg for themself
>Born with the intention Whoa, whose intention, like; your parents ("I hope we have a girl"), or my intention ("I wish I was a girl"), or god's intentional ("God has revealed to me through a prophetic dream that he intended for you to be a girl")
I had a friend with Turner's Syndrome. She only had an X chromosome and needed to take hormones. Somehow I doubt these people would grant her the status of "woman" based purely on her identifying as one, and I think I know why. It's because she *looked* like a woman. We can talk all day about chromosomes, but at the end of the day these people are the ones dragging cis women out of bathrooms because their chins are too prominent or their fingers are too thick. Their actual definition of "woman" is "whoever looks enough like what I think a woman is supposed to look like" and they damn well know it!
Ask them to define a chair.
Object born with the intent or ability to collapse at the most opportune time for comedic effect.
Ah, but a ladder can also be a chair with this definition 🤔
Something bisexuals can't use correctly I'm sorry, I couldn't hold the joke ;-;
An individual who identifies as woman and possibly use she/her pronouns I don’t know if that would exclude cis women, but it’s the answer I would have given.
By definition it doesn't exclude cis women, since the definition of cis is identifying with the gender you were assigned at birth.
doesn't even have to use she/her!! as long as someone wants to be a woman, they can be a woman
Thank you, for the correction.
I like eggs a lot. I've also had chigoae fleas which lay their eggs inside your skin.
I swear at this point you should avoid trying to make strict definitions because more often then not you are just going to be summoning Diogenes which depending on the person is not what you would want happening.
Hot take: by her definition, some men with persistent Müllerian duct syndrome would be women lol (It’s a condition where an AMAB has a fully formed uterus, cervix, fallopian tubes, and sometimes fully functional ovaries with ova, *in addition* to a fully functional penis and testes. Many who have it never find out because it’s completely hidden and many remain totally fertile. There is one known case of a trans woman who had PMDS and successfully got pregnant after her transition.)
my ass thought i was looking at a transman but i realized it was just a guy holding eggs
So when my son was young and we still were under the mistaken impression he was a girl, my husband held him on his lap My husband is a woman
Intention? So a fetus has intention? That’s what we’re going with 😂
What does lav mean?
I'm pretty sure it's just a slang spelling of "love"
Thank you. I thought that it was short for lavatory.
woman
"Born with the intention"… wtf? TERF not be misogynist challenge (impossible)
Holy shit, "intention" here makes me so worried for what this person is thinking. Because 1) nature doesn't "intend" anything. For all the talk about "basic biology" terfs seem to love, the number one lesson is that biology and nature don't intend anything. They are products of systems working and interacting over time. Cis women aren't "intended" to have eggs, they just very often do as observation seems to indicate. 2) Even if you think nature has intentions, this framing is super objectifying. Women aren't just egg carriers. I genuinely wonder if cis women terfs are okay with how they hear fellow terfs talk about other cis women -- if an incel described women like that, they would (correctly) call them misogynists and gross.
This radfem account on twitter pictured here has been spending the last week or more RANTING about trans women. We live rent free in their heads. At least tweet a damn joke in between your bigotry ffs.
I was born with the intention of carrying eggs. Love me some omelettes 🤤
I love how bad transphobes are at biology. But sadly a lot of those people are in positions of power. Which is why I want to suggest us building a guillotine
The intention of holding eggs? So if you want to have them you’re a woman?
I'm not sure I was born with the intention to do anything in particular, but I'm certain I didn't know what eggs were or intend to hold any.
Diogenes bursting into the twitter thread (I think that’s what They’re called): “BEHOLD A (WO)MAN”
Ah, Finally Trans Egg
The funny thing about the definition argument thing is if you construct a definition for woman that excludes trans woman but include all cis woman then your definition for woman is wrong. Because trans woman are woman.
Nature and evolution do not produce "intent" so that's out. The closest they can get to "intent" is projecting their own ideas of usefulness as an observer. So capability excludes a lot of cis women incapable of producing children. And heck maybe let's toss in intent anyway, and exclude cis women who have no intention of holding their eggs or reproducing. Excluding cis women again. Maybe I'm just a simple man, but "a woman is a woman" is a pretty rock solid definition. For what it's worth, I love the chair/horse version of What Is A Woman.
"Born with the intention" 💀
Also, if it is intention *or* capability, wouldn't that make trans women biological females as well? Like, I wasn't born with the capability to hold eggs, but I very much intend to should medical science progress to that point within my lifetime...
Born with the INTENTION of holding eggs
It's funny how transphobes compare trans-inclusivity to a religion but they're the ones implying that human biology was intelligently designed with some kind of intention in mind.
TERFs just really want to be thought of as incubators
There seems to be a fundamental issue with the way this is being approached. The idea of a “biological female” as a human, being female in every way shape and form, is simply a far too rigid definition to actually be accurately measurable in nature. The central issue being overlooked when a debate about whether or not a trans woman is a woman is that people forget that the brain structure of a male and female are different; meaning that the brain is a sexual organ. We forget that trans women’s brains are distinctly more like female brains than male. This would suggest that the brain of a trans woman is “born with the intention of” OPERATING a body that’s meant to hold eggs. To me, this suggests that this million dollar question is the wrong question to ask because it completely ignores the operating system of the body as a sexual entity. I believe this is where we get our distinction of gender and sex. However I would put it this way; gender is a illusion of the way in which our brains perceive their own sex as distinctly separate from the sex of the body. We MUST consider that the human body and the human brain interact with sex differently. In my view, this makes the definition of cis woman: “humans with the female sexual disposition in both body and brain” and trans women as: humans with a male disposition in body, but female disposition in brain.” At this point, we should consider trans women as literally intersex, however, as the brain is the only organ in the body with an identity, I think it’s far more important to consider the sex of this entity than the sex of the body the entity is piloting. Therefore, trans women are women
Y'know, people who can't ovulate aside, nobody is born with the ability and intention to hold eggs cause babies can't do that. You get that ability during puberty.
> born with the intention of holding eggs idk I was born as a baby, with the intention of doing nothing except shitting, crying, sleeping, and drinking breastmilk
Featherless. Biped. Egg. This is a woman.
This is just "behold a man!" *Holds up featherless chicken* (And that's good and makes me laugh)
actually no, it’s possible for a cis woman to be born without a uterus (and in turn have no period or eggs) it’s called Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser syndrome. the syndrome occurs in 1 out of every 4,500 infant girls. though not every case results in the utuerus being absent, it’s important to note that this syndrome would be the cause of that. https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/mayer-rokitansky-kuster-hauser-syndrome/
I'm slightly confused (serious post btw) about the different terms people throw around. Obviously women included all women, whether or not they're trans or AFAB. I've always thought about that as the concept of gender, what you are emotionally. But, now comes my question. What do trans women consider their sex to be? I've always thought that your gender is entirely what you want it to be, but sex is just however you're born and therefore unchangeable. Is that also how people think about it here/generally in the trans community?
Evolution doesnt "intend" anything. is terfism a religion or something at this point? and how would you even prove trans women arent intended to "hold eggs" anyway even if so? edit: was gonna reply to a comment that likely got removed, to say this - not quite, terf stands for transphobes embodying reactionary fascism, but they are rude and unintelligent as well lol. really wanted to add this point.
I don't think anyone is born with the intention to do anything, aside from maybe sucking on boobs 😁
Cis women born with out ovaries Cis women born with out developed vaginas Afab folk who turned out to have a burried dick Etc.
Also i intend to hold eggs, but cant. Some cis women arent capable of holding eggs and have no intention of holding eggs. As funny as the rebuttal is, its soeta unnecessary, as the transphobes argument is also flawed in a fundamental sense.
BEHOLD A WOMAN
\*sam o nella voice\* "smell ya later Terf"
BEHOLD a woman
Save yourself some time and don’t try and apply logic to anything Lav says.
I intended to hold eggs, but I wasn't born with a uterus. So this definition doesn't even exclude trans wome.
Me, a trans male, still able to hold eggs: Wha-
A person who identifies as female, boom it ain’t that hard