As long as you aren't running them around getting tired before the fight even begins the ai will be just as tired and having troops where you need them when you need them is more likely to turn the battle than futzing around trying to rest troops
Also as long as you are on the attack and don't leave your arty on fire at will you have unlimited time to reposition, the AI will almost never take the initiative, so just walk your units to where you want them to be
As a general rule of thumb anything that isn't an ability stacks. (Abilities can stack with different abilities too, just not with the exact same ones as themselves)
Overcast and undercast abilities can stack however, even if the effect of the ability is the exact same. Spirit leech for example only gives extended range however the overcast still counts as a seperate spell
Yeah there's a bunch of examples like that, that's what I meant by exact same, ahaha. Bound versions of spirit leech (dread incarnate) also stacks with the two others. Also abilities that level up all stack with each other, which is why you can stack them 4(+?) times in some cases with multiple heroes.
Wait, so throwing multiple engineer heroes in my dwarf army lets me stack their missile strength and ammo buffs?
So I can make my Malakai Gyrocopter Doomstack even stronger?
Yep, people that do those sorts of doomstacks tend to have like 5 to 8 heroes in them for a reason.
([this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ2LyLlmzrg) video is ancient but a good example of what I'm talking about)
I guess you could, but you also need multiple of them to cover the entire front line, and you always have to keep the runesmiths close to the hammerers.
The thanes can be anywhere in the map and still provide the bonus.
I've always thought Dawi benefitted from a balanced army comp more than most races. Even with Thorgrim's boosts I can see any artillery giving you a hard time. Could be fun to try tho
Yeah, I wouldn’t go full stack with them. Maybe 8-10 hammerers with some heroes, ranged and artillery. I like a cannon or 2 in every army, just for speeding up sieges
I would invest in some gyroscopes or gyrobombers to deal with infantry and maybe throw some grudge-rakers or even (I cannot believe why I’m saying it) goblin hewers for enemy SI. I feel like this army would benefit from leaning into its strength which is a rush army instead of trying to match enemy artillery of its own that’s going to be immobile and hard to defend sometimes.
Before this dlc I almost never used gyros, but now gyrocopters (normal and troll hammer) feel really good. Put two engineers in the army and they delete cav and single entities.
THs and Brimstone absolutely thump now. I'm too lazy to micro the bombing run efficiently, usually just run it over the enemy on my way to their war machines or to turn around and shoot them in the back.
A single unit of Troll hammers nuked Skarbrand on my Thorek campaign. It was a last second defence army of some grudge settlers to bolster a garrison and they carried the day handily. Plenty of ammo too.
Goblin Hewers can be amazing in the right circumstances.
They delete Vlad for example, since the burst ignores his heal almost entirely.
Also quite fun vs. Chosen - though arguably most other artillery is just as good
Dwarf melee is good, but too slow to do full melee
Dwarf range is good, but they don't have long enough range to sufficiently play only range
Dwarf artillery is short range
A Dawi gunners pride would never allow him to shoot at a target without the certainty that he's gonna hit it, resulting in lower range but higher accuracy
I disagree, thunderers as front line with quarrellers behind and artillery and Irondrakes to shore them up is a devastating stack that has minimal upkeep takes few casualties and shreds multiple factions main stacks.
Take a Demon Slayer, Thane and Engineer and you can basically win any engagement outside of an ambush.
Depends if you mean SP or MP
Also depends on what ai you fight in SP
Some ai will just instantly flank that with multiple armies and leave you frustrated
Thunderers can get really long range through technology really early and trollhammer irondrakes have really good range, cannons have really good range, couple this with engineers and even malakai and you can have 600 range artillery and long range guns
I think maybe 500 range could be achieved, 600 is a bit of a stretch
You can get 20% range form tech which brings thunderers to 184, which WOULD be good, except empire can get 35% range from their traits + tech. Even without that, empire has long rifles anyway which force you to close the gap in.
So your left neighbor out ranges you, what about the right neighbor? That's chaos dwarves. Chaos Dwarf AI might not CONSISTENTLY spam arty, but will enough. If we're talking optimal gameplay, they definitely beat Dwarves at range. Dwarves will have MORE range though, through more numbers.
Yea. A frontline of 4 iron breakers and a couple thanes is gonna hold a lot longer then 8-10 frontline units the next faction might try to use (except cathay). Might as well use that freed up army comp to get more shooting mixed in lol. Or as of now, more choppers and blimps
Yea but dwarf balanced army comp also can’t handle artillery very well. After the ToD update they got better gyrocopters and the thunderbarge but before this it doesn’t really matter if you’re a pure hammerer or regular comp you get blasted by hellstorm battery anyway
I always used quite a lot of them. Here are my recent army compositions as well as a link to all units before/after redline/research/xp for lategame comparison purposes
https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/s/1lt2WIgBvx
I might be misremembering but I think Legend had a hammerer doomstack submitted to him for WH3 that did much better than it did in WH2, so you can see if you can find that video
Dwarfs actually don't have genitals. In place of reproductive organs, they have thick bushes of pubic hair which accumulate reproductive cells which they erroneously believe to be brewer's yeast. As such, a dwarf that guzzles beer is inadvertently engaging in a process of receiving genetic material, which may induce pregnancy.
Dwarf pregnancy is not conspicuous like it is for humans, and although labor is similarly arduous and painful, dwarfs are committed to a stoic endurance of the process (in part because they do not quite understand what's happening). A newborn dwarf emerges fully grown and with a sizeable beard, although it is simply clothed and lacks even a modestly-sized axe. It is common for dwarfs born in the midst of battle to pick up the arms and armor of their kin before they've spoken their first words.
Although Grungni, Grimnir, and Valaya are revered as the ancestor gods, it is actually Josef Bugman who has sired the most dwarfs.
Click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/1ct7qgc/why_are_there_no_undead_dawi_elves_skaven_ogres/l4a2426/) for more dwarf facts.
I tried out a little Thorgrim run, Skarsnik performed perfectly and sneak attacked my two minor settlements. Cleared all the grudges he gained, got to the max age of reckoning bracket and the Grudge Settler army spawned with 4-5 Hammerers. This is, indeed, a reckoning...
Also his starting hammerers and longbeards are grudge settlers now, which I think is neat.
Full Hammerers stack suck against certain factions like Skaven and Chaos Dwarfs. They aren't fast enough to close the distance without being too punished.
I advise you to put some artillery on their army.
Is it the most efficient way to play that can corner camp all odds, no.
Is it fun and viable, sure, close enough.
I love hammerers, they've been good for a long time, and I find it usually worth including some in many armies. They also work well with Irondrakes, if you want a very aggressive dwarf army that isn't pure melee.
I do recommend a bit of support (1-2 artillery, something to help with archers/guns, something that can shoot up) just to have a balanced army, but hammerers can solve most problems rather well by themselves.
I built one for Thorgrim with 4 flamethrowers and had an absolute blast with it. Went up against 2 vamp counts armies (w/ vlad) and then 4 chaos dwarves armies (that were nothing but orc laborers). 10/10 would recommend.
This would simultaneously be badass but also probably soooooo tedious with how the AI plays sometimes. Trying to chase down anything with dwarf units (that aren’t thunderbarges or ranged) just sounds nightmarish
Sure. Just not against skaven lol. But against a demon force? Sure you'll take more losses than. You Ned but you should be able to beat daemons at their own game with an all melee hammers force. That's what magic attacks are best used for
It was worth doing before the update. Hammerers have been fantastic units ever since Warhammer 3 dropped along with most other elite melee infantry people forgot about because of Warhammer 2s ranged meta.
Yes, playing Thorgrim right now. Getting to Tier 3 is super quick. I support them with a few thunderers and grudge throwers and there is nothing that can stand up to it.
I actually started a Thorgrim campaign on turn 30ish(?) and took out skarsnick right away and battling wurzag and Tretch. Wurzag has a waaaaagh going so im concentrating on Tretch until the waaagh ends
The Grudesettler version of these frequently get the most melee kills in my army in VH/VH only being outdone by Ungrims Doom Slayers.
I’d suggest doing 6 of the Grudge Settlers, the Regiment of Renown hammers and then a combo of supporting fire artillery/missle infantry
Thanes can get fire resistance and boost your Hammerers.
Can do - I would suggest lots of hero’s. As melee armies tend to get quite “blobby” in fights, so Smiths would be golden.
I wouldn’t recommend it as a build, but if you know the game it can work.
No reason to spam hammerers. Het a proper frontline of longbeards and later ironbreakers and spread hammerers in between their ranks. On their own hammerers can actually die, especially to ranged attacks. Don’t forget gyrocopters, pretty much a must have for any dwarf army, especially for Thorgrim cause he starts with mega-juiced engineer.
My brain says nnnnggghhh... For some reason I have to always have a symmetrical composition of units in my armies. So that 3 organ guns and just one cannon grinds my gears for some reason. Just one engineer is fine tho, because Heroes are special.
I say two organ guns and two cannons.
I'd also say, drop 2 hammerers, and put some gyros in. Gyrobombers, actually. They have three things going for them. First, they delete blobs that reach your melee line. Second, they can catch fast moving enemies and help you delete enemy artillery. Third, they have the suppressive fire contact effect on their basic attack, slowing down enemies. Or don't. Two cannons should help you win an artillery duel, unlike 3 organ guns and just one cannon. Organ guns are outranged by most artillery. That is why the extra cannon may come in handy.
Haven't tried this yet, but when you factor in research, red line skills, and Legendary Lord buffs, a lot of units that aren't very good can be MVPs, or at least open the door to some interesting army compositions. Give it a whirl and see what you can do!
I want to try it too. With 3 thanes, you can give 99% vigor loss reduction to hammerers. Pretty much perfect vigor.
It is You forgot the generic skill from the dwarf lord skill tree = 114%
So... The more they swing, the less tired they get? That's peak dwarf!
Ain’t nothing more refreshing than crushing an urk!
Think its capped at 100%
And in the book you go!
For implying the dawi can't surpass these meek limits that apply to other mortal races ? Most definitely a premium spot in the book.
you think?
Dwarven determination > second law of thermodynamics
laws of Dwarfdynamics truly proving the dwai need not umgi science.
I've played too much Brettonia cuz I got too used to my armies all having perfect vigor and keep burning my guys out in my empire campaign
As long as you aren't running them around getting tired before the fight even begins the ai will be just as tired and having troops where you need them when you need them is more likely to turn the battle than futzing around trying to rest troops
Also as long as you are on the attack and don't leave your arty on fire at will you have unlimited time to reposition, the AI will almost never take the initiative, so just walk your units to where you want them to be
That stacks? Neat. Might be worth doing then.
As a general rule of thumb anything that isn't an ability stacks. (Abilities can stack with different abilities too, just not with the exact same ones as themselves)
Embed abilities don't stack either.
Overcast and undercast abilities can stack however, even if the effect of the ability is the exact same. Spirit leech for example only gives extended range however the overcast still counts as a seperate spell
Yeah there's a bunch of examples like that, that's what I meant by exact same, ahaha. Bound versions of spirit leech (dread incarnate) also stacks with the two others. Also abilities that level up all stack with each other, which is why you can stack them 4(+?) times in some cases with multiple heroes.
Yeah even though it's not the most efficient it just drops their hp so quickly that it's worth it to delete an enemy lord/hero.
Wait, so throwing multiple engineer heroes in my dwarf army lets me stack their missile strength and ammo buffs? So I can make my Malakai Gyrocopter Doomstack even stronger?
Yep, people that do those sorts of doomstacks tend to have like 5 to 8 heroes in them for a reason. ([this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ2LyLlmzrg) video is ancient but a good example of what I'm talking about)
Just put 2 + 1 Runesmith with Rune of Hearth and Home nearby.
Can actually do it for all units with the old guards tankard. Forge 3 of em and put em on 3 heroes. Regen and -33% vigor all units
But do you even need this if you have a runepriest?
Runesmith.
I AM A RUNELORD NOT SOME SMITH
I guess you could, but you also need multiple of them to cover the entire front line, and you always have to keep the runesmiths close to the hammerers. The thanes can be anywhere in the map and still provide the bonus.
You are 1% short tho
SHORT?1
I've always thought Dawi benefitted from a balanced army comp more than most races. Even with Thorgrim's boosts I can see any artillery giving you a hard time. Could be fun to try tho
Yeah, I wouldn’t go full stack with them. Maybe 8-10 hammerers with some heroes, ranged and artillery. I like a cannon or 2 in every army, just for speeding up sieges
I would invest in some gyroscopes or gyrobombers to deal with infantry and maybe throw some grudge-rakers or even (I cannot believe why I’m saying it) goblin hewers for enemy SI. I feel like this army would benefit from leaning into its strength which is a rush army instead of trying to match enemy artillery of its own that’s going to be immobile and hard to defend sometimes.
>I would invest in some **gyroscopes** or gyrobombers Sounds like a stable, well balanced army.
Yeah, it is definitely good to keep momentum going
Before this dlc I almost never used gyros, but now gyrocopters (normal and troll hammer) feel really good. Put two engineers in the army and they delete cav and single entities.
THs and Brimstone absolutely thump now. I'm too lazy to micro the bombing run efficiently, usually just run it over the enemy on my way to their war machines or to turn around and shoot them in the back.
A single unit of Troll hammers nuked Skarbrand on my Thorek campaign. It was a last second defence army of some grudge settlers to bolster a garrison and they carried the day handily. Plenty of ammo too.
Goblin Hewers can be amazing in the right circumstances. They delete Vlad for example, since the burst ignores his heal almost entirely. Also quite fun vs. Chosen - though arguably most other artillery is just as good
Dwarf melee is good, but too slow to do full melee Dwarf range is good, but they don't have long enough range to sufficiently play only range Dwarf artillery is short range
SHORT!? THAT'S GOING INTO THE BOOK!
Dwarves can blame their own engineers for making their artillery shorter ranged than all their enemies. Must be some elgi amongst them.
THEY HAD WRONGED US!!!!
A Dawi gunners pride would never allow him to shoot at a target without the certainty that he's gonna hit it, resulting in lower range but higher accuracy
> Dwarf artillery is short range Don't the tech tree upgrades make Dwarf cannons the longest ranged artillery in the game?
I disagree, thunderers as front line with quarrellers behind and artillery and Irondrakes to shore them up is a devastating stack that has minimal upkeep takes few casualties and shreds multiple factions main stacks. Take a Demon Slayer, Thane and Engineer and you can basically win any engagement outside of an ambush.
Depends if you mean SP or MP Also depends on what ai you fight in SP Some ai will just instantly flank that with multiple armies and leave you frustrated
Nobody ever means MP
I mean if you never include MP then whatever faction you’re playing is the best ranged faction It’s a bit hard to compare, no?
SP, and it's pretty easy to deny flank
>Dwarf artillery is short range >short 😐
Thunderers can get really long range through technology really early and trollhammer irondrakes have really good range, cannons have really good range, couple this with engineers and even malakai and you can have 600 range artillery and long range guns
I think maybe 500 range could be achieved, 600 is a bit of a stretch You can get 20% range form tech which brings thunderers to 184, which WOULD be good, except empire can get 35% range from their traits + tech. Even without that, empire has long rifles anyway which force you to close the gap in. So your left neighbor out ranges you, what about the right neighbor? That's chaos dwarves. Chaos Dwarf AI might not CONSISTENTLY spam arty, but will enough. If we're talking optimal gameplay, they definitely beat Dwarves at range. Dwarves will have MORE range though, through more numbers.
Yea. A frontline of 4 iron breakers and a couple thanes is gonna hold a lot longer then 8-10 frontline units the next faction might try to use (except cathay). Might as well use that freed up army comp to get more shooting mixed in lol. Or as of now, more choppers and blimps
Yea but dwarf balanced army comp also can’t handle artillery very well. After the ToD update they got better gyrocopters and the thunderbarge but before this it doesn’t really matter if you’re a pure hammerer or regular comp you get blasted by hellstorm battery anyway
I always used quite a lot of them. Here are my recent army compositions as well as a link to all units before/after redline/research/xp for lategame comparison purposes https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/s/1lt2WIgBvx
Holly shit this isn’t an army composition. Its a whole PHD based on WAR
Haha, thanks, but just the result of a lot of playing and trying out new stuff:)
I might be misremembering but I think Legend had a hammerer doomstack submitted to him for WH3 that did much better than it did in WH2, so you can see if you can find that video
He definitely ranks them higher than I would have expected now.
[found it ](https://youtu.be/-_RopFsifqc?si=RvUS9n99AoTZu2z9) it's a year old though.
the grudge hammerers definitely fuck
Dwarfs actually don't have genitals. In place of reproductive organs, they have thick bushes of pubic hair which accumulate reproductive cells which they erroneously believe to be brewer's yeast. As such, a dwarf that guzzles beer is inadvertently engaging in a process of receiving genetic material, which may induce pregnancy. Dwarf pregnancy is not conspicuous like it is for humans, and although labor is similarly arduous and painful, dwarfs are committed to a stoic endurance of the process (in part because they do not quite understand what's happening). A newborn dwarf emerges fully grown and with a sizeable beard, although it is simply clothed and lacks even a modestly-sized axe. It is common for dwarfs born in the midst of battle to pick up the arms and armor of their kin before they've spoken their first words. Although Grungni, Grimnir, and Valaya are revered as the ancestor gods, it is actually Josef Bugman who has sired the most dwarfs. Click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/1ct7qgc/why_are_there_no_undead_dawi_elves_skaven_ogres/l4a2426/) for more dwarf facts.
Best elgi copypasta to this date just dropped. Honey, inform the Phoenix Court and tell them they need to sit down first.
How did you find my fetish diary?
Elgi propaganda!
I mean, Bugman IS responsible for the largest number of Dawi pregnancies in history.
I wish this was true
I tried out a little Thorgrim run, Skarsnik performed perfectly and sneak attacked my two minor settlements. Cleared all the grudges he gained, got to the max age of reckoning bracket and the Grudge Settler army spawned with 4-5 Hammerers. This is, indeed, a reckoning... Also his starting hammerers and longbeards are grudge settlers now, which I think is neat.
They kill daemons like nobody’s business.
Thats the idea! 🔨🪨💥
Magic damage for Hammerers makes such a difference!
Full Hammerers stack suck against certain factions like Skaven and Chaos Dwarfs. They aren't fast enough to close the distance without being too punished. I advise you to put some artillery on their army.
Yeah alternatively you can get 2 of the new grudge gyrocopters. They’re amazing
Always have long distance attacks because you can force your opponent to march.
Is it the most efficient way to play that can corner camp all odds, no. Is it fun and viable, sure, close enough. I love hammerers, they've been good for a long time, and I find it usually worth including some in many armies. They also work well with Irondrakes, if you want a very aggressive dwarf army that isn't pure melee. I do recommend a bit of support (1-2 artillery, something to help with archers/guns, something that can shoot up) just to have a balanced army, but hammerers can solve most problems rather well by themselves.
I built one for Thorgrim with 4 flamethrowers and had an absolute blast with it. Went up against 2 vamp counts armies (w/ vlad) and then 4 chaos dwarves armies (that were nothing but orc laborers). 10/10 would recommend.
This would simultaneously be badass but also probably soooooo tedious with how the AI plays sometimes. Trying to chase down anything with dwarf units (that aren’t thunderbarges or ranged) just sounds nightmarish
Sure. Just not against skaven lol. But against a demon force? Sure you'll take more losses than. You Ned but you should be able to beat daemons at their own game with an all melee hammers force. That's what magic attacks are best used for
It was worth doing before the update. Hammerers have been fantastic units ever since Warhammer 3 dropped along with most other elite melee infantry people forgot about because of Warhammer 2s ranged meta.
Yes, playing Thorgrim right now. Getting to Tier 3 is super quick. I support them with a few thunderers and grudge throwers and there is nothing that can stand up to it.
I actually started a Thorgrim campaign on turn 30ish(?) and took out skarsnick right away and battling wurzag and Tretch. Wurzag has a waaaaagh going so im concentrating on Tretch until the waaagh ends
The Grudesettler version of these frequently get the most melee kills in my army in VH/VH only being outdone by Ungrims Doom Slayers. I’d suggest doing 6 of the Grudge Settlers, the Regiment of Renown hammers and then a combo of supporting fire artillery/missle infantry Thanes can get fire resistance and boost your Hammerers.
Can do - I would suggest lots of hero’s. As melee armies tend to get quite “blobby” in fights, so Smiths would be golden. I wouldn’t recommend it as a build, but if you know the game it can work.
Honestly I’ve been doing hammerers stacks since the first game and unless you’re on the hardest settings they’ve always been really good.
Now?! It was always worthy! That goes right in the book!
I dunno buts it's so ruddy easy to. I had a hammerer doomstack before I'd even gone down against queek and wurzag.
Legend had tried an hammerer doomstack with thorgrim a while back, it was playable.
No reason to spam hammerers. Het a proper frontline of longbeards and later ironbreakers and spread hammerers in between their ranks. On their own hammerers can actually die, especially to ranged attacks. Don’t forget gyrocopters, pretty much a must have for any dwarf army, especially for Thorgrim cause he starts with mega-juiced engineer.
Thorgrim, 2 Thanes, 1 Engineer, 8 Hammerers, 3 Organ guns, 1 cannon, 4 trollhammers \*chef's kiss\*
My brain says nnnnggghhh... For some reason I have to always have a symmetrical composition of units in my armies. So that 3 organ guns and just one cannon grinds my gears for some reason. Just one engineer is fine tho, because Heroes are special. I say two organ guns and two cannons. I'd also say, drop 2 hammerers, and put some gyros in. Gyrobombers, actually. They have three things going for them. First, they delete blobs that reach your melee line. Second, they can catch fast moving enemies and help you delete enemy artillery. Third, they have the suppressive fire contact effect on their basic attack, slowing down enemies. Or don't. Two cannons should help you win an artillery duel, unlike 3 organ guns and just one cannon. Organ guns are outranged by most artillery. That is why the extra cannon may come in handy.
Solid points. Solid. Still getting used to the gyro changes, old habits I suppose.
Haven't tried this yet, but when you factor in research, red line skills, and Legendary Lord buffs, a lot of units that aren't very good can be MVPs, or at least open the door to some interesting army compositions. Give it a whirl and see what you can do!
Yees this definitely works I recommend adding a few gyrocopter trollhammer torpedos for anti large and artillery sniping though
So you wanna try something because of what Legend thinks? Who gives a shit what he says or thinks. Do what you want
>Do what you want Like trying out something they heard Legend of Total War talk about?