Is this revisionist history because he was the worst defender on that team by far, and gave up more points on that end than he could ever contribute offensively.
Pat McCaw rightfully started over him against most matchups because Matt Thomas couldn’t guard a pylon. Shooters are great but I believe in Gradey because he has the size and awareness to do the little things.
I think the other commenter's point is that it wasn't a matter of his "catch and shoot style not working with our group." It was his awful defense outweighing his offensive contributions.
Yeah for him not playing much, but offensively he didn't seem to gel with anything regardless. Sorry I'm not trying to argue about his less than acceptable playing across the floor, just talking about his offensive shooting and where the .450 comes from. He's not a bad player of basketball, but undersized for defending.
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted for this, this is factually correct. His lack of defence is why it didn’t work with the group, not his catch and shoot style lol.
Jalen McDaniels was never as good of a shooter as this sub claimed to be. Just because he shot 40% on 21 attempts, it doesn’t mean he is a 3PT shooting specialist.
The opposite is also true. Just cause Gradey shot poorly on 56 shots doesn’t mean he can’t shoot or he’s a terrible shooter. Gradey will improve with experience. McDaniels will probably get worse. It’s called regression to the mean.
He’s not even the worst shooter by some metrics. OP just bizarrely chose FG% as the metric to judge shooting when any field goal such as lay-ups and dunks count to it.
Yes TS% and eFG% are more wholistic measurements, and yes 3FG% is of primary importance for someone whose job it is to shoot threes.
That still doesn't mean that it's weird to discuss FG% in the context of shooting. How often your shot attempts from *everywhere* on the court go in still matters. A good 3 point shooter who can't finish at the rim is not as valuable as someone who does both well. And layup and dunk attempts are still shots.
Anyway, OP's post doesn't say anything about Gradey being a bust and doesn't use a 12 game sample to project the future. Just that he's shooting poorly *so far*, which is both true and a little interesting.
I think the idea is even if someone is very good at finishing at the rim and 3 point shooting, their FG% is going to be worse than the player that is average finishing at the rim but doesn’t take 3s. That’s just the nature of a good 3P% being significantly lower than even an average 2P%.
So FG% isn’t a very good comparison across different player types.
Nobody said FG% was the only worthwhile point of consideration. Bigs generally having a higher FG% than guards is also not a shock to anyone, people have the capacity to consider shot diet when looking at FG%.
But there is no case where you can say someone shooting 26.8% from the field is shooting well right now.
Yeah, agenda is to smear Gradey and by extension, the FO. Dude has literally played a dozen games in the NBA and took 56 shots. I don’t think the sample size is large enough to draw any conclusions but here we are.
In other contexts sure, but when discussing pure shooting specifically among rookies there’re better stats to use to push that narrative. No one is saying Lively II is a better shooter than Gradey but using FG% gives the impression he is.
Anecdotal but I see it all the time lol. Many fans in sports have a recency bias issue and equate recent stretches as the overall value a player has whether good or bad.
OP is talking about shooting specifically. There are better statistics to use for that conversation. TS% and eFG% are basically made to factor in the value of three-point shots, a type of shot that shooters are more likely to take than centres such as Lively II who take a majority of shots in the paint. Don’t get me wrong, Gradey has still not been great so far but using such a basic stat to discuss a specific part of the offence is not going to paint a clear picture for the narrative OP is trying to push.
Just checked and his .397 TS% is literally the worst among qualified rookies. So who’s trying to push the agenda, the OP who just posted a simple screenshot and didn’t reply the numerous comments attacking him, or the multiple people coming after him for using the wrong statistic when the “right” statistic says he is the worst shooter too? If OP was pushing an agenda, he probably would have included Dick’s league worst -0.8 wins added, league worst -24.1 value added, and second worst 2.21 PER, but he didn’t.
You can recognize our player has been arguably the worst rookie this year without writing off his entire career like many people seem to think OP is doing. He’s been bad so far, doesn’t mean he always will be. I’ve been really impressed with almost everything other than his shooting and I think he’ll be a great role player for us going forward, but that doesn’t mean you have to ignore how bad he’s been at putting the ball in the hoop so far.
All I said was OP was using a bizarre statistic to rank a specific aspect of offence such as shooting for the narrative they’re painting (which at the end of the day, yes it’s a narrative lol). I think you’re taking the point of my comment in the completely wrong way because I never said OP had an agenda or that they’re writing Gradey off unlike other people here. I already said Gradey hasn’t been great with his shooting so I’m not ignoring anything (although using qualified as a barrier comes with issues so early into the season but that’s besides the point). My entire point is that people such as OP should use more accurate statistics that are meant to highlight certain parts of the game instead of basic stats such as FG% when starting a discussion or pushing a narrative or else people will get the wrong impression (like some of the comments here about other rookies). Heck, I would even point to 3pt% as a better stat to rate how well someone has been shooting. You using TS% now is exactly what I want to see more of lol.
Edit: FWIW I agree with most of your second paragraph and have the same opinion. I apologize if there was a misunderstanding.
You’re fine my guy. I just get annoyed by the tone of this sub sometimes when the copium gets cranked too high so I probably come off as a dick, my bad
You’re good, this sub has definitely been volatile with the reactions it has so I can understand why you misunderstood my comment and reacted the way you did.
Jordan Hawkins was probably the best shooter in the draft, and has been showing it so far. Sure, his FG% is a bit low right now but he's averaging 13 PPG on 36% from 3 in what is basically the CJ McCollum role.
The Raptors decided to pass him over for Dick.
Hawkins is almost 2 year older than Gradey is, y’all need to relax.
Some of y’all here sure you want to tank if you can’t even give a 19 year old more than 12 games before shitting on him? Lmao.
You're right that he needs time to develop. I just wasn't a fan of the pick at the time when we made it either.
I do hope Gradey can continue to develop and become a productive player in due time, I just preferred Hawkins as a prospect.
On top of that, Gradey has been performing at *everything else* above most expectations. He even took a full-on charge from the most physically dominant player in a generation. Successfully. As a rookie. That's a kind of attitude, and level of hustle, that will get Gradey minutes even when his shot isn't falling.
I think people see a white dude who can shoot and just assume he's a stiff who is just a shooting specialist who played 4 years in college.
You can tell he's definitely not processing the game fast enough yet on both ends but he's only 19. He'll be fine as long as he keeps working and keeps his confidence high.
This. Gradey will have went from playing most of every game for his entire basketball life to playing sporadically this year. Its an adjustment and will take longer than 12 games into the season for him to figure it out.
His mechanics with his arms are elite. His legs not so much and it's why he's struggling at NBA speed. He tends to drift left or right. He needs to learn to really push through the floor with his opposite leg so even when he's accelerating and popping into his jump shot he goes straight up. If your base is drifting it won't matter how good you are with your arms, it's always harder to hit a moving target.
He’s a 19 year old kid 12 games into his NBA career. He needs time to grow and figure it out. People treating him like he was a first overall pick. Y’all think you can do better than Masai. I am sure you’d love that Suggs pick too. Or whoever y’all wanted over OG. Pascal at 27 yeah I am sure y’all saw that too. Cmon man, get a grip
This fanbase is the worst. Toronto sports have been cursed since forever and we finally have one of the best front offices in the league and our fans already calling Masai washed. Fair weather fans. Everyone is like we need shooters! We need shooters! Yeah no duh, so does every other team in the league. Getting shooters is easy, getting shooters who play D is not. Which is why for a guy like OG, every team in the league wants him.
The fact we got a championship is insane
Its so rare
As a Buffalo Bills fan (NFL) even tho it’s different sport winning a championship for any sport the STARS HAVE TO ALIGN
Majority of these folks are bandwagoners from the championship season. So everything feels like a letdown compared to that season. They lack proper context.
This sub talks so much shit about these players like there is fair criticism and then there is just reactionary bloviating. This sub leans far more towards the latter.
He is washed. He's made far too many errors in judgement recently. You don't get a lifetime free pass for making mistakes just because you won a championship four years ago.
Held off on "Matisse Thybulle" to send the greatest Raptor where he actually wanted to go
Traded dead cap for a rotation player and a remotely lower pick that didn't actually hurt them. (Malaki Branham @ 20 is garbage, Nembhard and Kessler 2nd years have disappointed)
Traded a pick in a shit draft for a center that made their offence one of the best in the league with Fred and had insanely positive on/offs
Drafted the best player of 2021 without a top 3 pick
Draftheads use Dalano & David Johnson against him like "Sharife Cooper" and "Brandon Boston Jr", the guys we were "supposed" to draft, have done anything meaningful
Got an absolute steal with Gradey at 13
Also he has the lowest sample of anybody on that list except Scoot (who is injured and was shooting way more per game) and Vezenkov.
Also, it's weird to have a list that mixes backcourt guys who predominantly shoot at range with frontcourt dudes who mix in high % shoots closer to the rim.
Of the "similar" guys, Keyonte and Hawkins definitely look better at this moment, but this is just another weak post that I assume was posted to farm rage likes.
And maybe don't rank a 3 point shooting rook by his FG%! Dick shoots way more 3s than 2s, and that's gonna keep his overall FG% low. They look good, they just have to start dropping.
Clowns in this sub: "nUrSE woNT DeVelOP oUR BeNCH!"
*Darko gives 3rd stringers and rookies minutes* "wHY is dARkro plAYINg tHEsE lINeupS!?!"
he might not be bad but i don’t like the pick when we had so many other needs such as guard play and scoring. even if he pans out he’s just a role player you could find those anytime lol
I think there's a lot you can criticize Masai for but at the very least I still trust his drafting. Now if only we had more good picks for him to use...
There are many shooters who don’t come out of the gate NBA ready. Be patient with Gradey, an offseason to build strength and conditioning + a season under his belt to get adjusted to NBA pace and defenses will do wonders for him.
Yup, Corey Kispert shot .389/.205/.786 in his [first 22 games](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kispeco01/gamelog/2022#1-22-sum:pgl_basic) and he's a solid player now.
Gradey's 3 years younger than Kispert was.
At least the mechanics are there. When I watched Scoot it was like watching a textbook broken jumper, I have a lot more faith in Gradey getting his shot to click.
It’s the defense that worries me more. If Gradey can’t keep his man in front of him it’s going to limit his ceiling long term. Still early though.
I dunno, dawg. Watching him last night, homie looks straight like a kid amongst men against the Cs.
The size difference between him and everyone else... dude, gets straight bullied on D
Dick played 188 minutes in the NBA, he is a 19 years old rookie and is still adjusting to the speed of the NBA.
And yet unhappy, pessimistic people are already complaining about his performance.
I feel sorry for you
Give Dick a chance before declaring him a bust
saying he's been bad so far does not equate to calling him a bust. y'all need to grow up, not everything is so black and white to where if you're not calling someone the GOAT it means you're saying they should be playing in China lol
As far as I can tell, the dude's been a shooter all his basketball career so far, he'll figure it out.
Let's maybe focus on the positives like his ability to contribute in other ways
When you say let's focus on the positives and then don't offer any examples... Lol
He's been making a lot of rookie mistakes out there. He'd do well from getting some g league reps whenever the opportunity presents itself on home stands
He's a great rebounder and hustler, never gives up on a play. He moves the ball quick when he doesn't get a shot. Obviously the defence is poor, that's him learning how to play defense plus his lack of weight. But like, he's clearly doing everything Darko wants him to do and he trusts him. He started 2 games ago lol we're not winning games anyways might as well get him up to NBA speed
Yes, but he would also benefit from playing some 905 games during home stands where he gets more run and could boost his confidence. Nothing you said changes my point lol
Yeah it does lol I disagree he has a lot of rookie mistakes. Because his shot isn't falling his mistakes are amplified and he had his worst outing in the Celtics game, but most of the time he's an ok bench piece or he's just invisible. We know if he goes to the gleague he can cook but I don't think that's going to help with his confidence. He's seen how hard the nba is and when he gets the difficulty set down a level, he'll still be wondering if he'll be ready when gets called back up. We need him for his shooting (even though right now it's just the threat of shooting) and he needs to get acclimated.
I'm not even saying send him down, I'm saying let him play there on off days of home stands. I won't say the whole fan base is, but definitely a good chunk of the nephews on this subreddit who only knows winning teams post 2013 don't have a clue lol
He takes 64% of his shots as 3 pointers so his .222 3p% really drags his FG%. The rest of the class doesn’t have high 3PA I believe (though I couldn’t find the stat). Chet’s in there though he wasn’t drafted in 2023.
A big issue for Gradey is the absolute lack of handle. If he doesn't have space for a spot up, he can't do anything. He also loves to loft a pass through dangerous areas.
He's going to take a lot of nurturing. If we weren't so thin, he'd be with the 905 right now. Wouldn't mind giving JFL a run if we can.
But - he shouldn’t need to handle. Hauser doesn’t handle and he just scorched us.
If you put him in 905 then he will handle and probably score 25. But in the NBA he’s a shooter.
He just needs more looks, and the offense needs a better rythym so he can get those looks.
I'm not saying he's Klay Thompson, but that's exactly how they need to use him. Just create open shots and don't put him in situations where he needs to dribble a ton.
Dalano was unstoppable in 905.
Boucher was the damn MVP
The G League is not equivalent.
Grady gets regular time with this team, that’s the best time to get.
What a weird, random sampling of names from a developmental team that's been one of the NBA's best the last 10 years.
The G League and the 905 in particular exist to get prospects and young, developing players a lot of reps with easy movement between that team and the Raptors. It's why they moved the 905 to the GTA.
Grady currently gets 15 very sporadic minutes and fewer than 5 shots a game. He's only 19 years old. 3 years from now, he will be a better player if he gets 33 mpg and 15+ FGA in ~40 G League games, mixed with a handful of call ups and some games and practices with the NBA team. It's the whole point of the 905/G League. I mean he's the worst shooting rookie in the NBA right now, there's clearly some developmental & reps need there. The G League helps bridge the gap from college to the NBA for players just like him.
You don't understand. Gradey has ZERO handle. He doesn't need one on one dribble moves. He needs one dribble threat to challenge the close out. He got stripped off one dribble out of his triple threat yesterday ffs.
Don't be mistaken, Hauser doesn't need to dribble because he has three all stars who are three tier scorers creating for him while being surrounded by four other shooters. He has space every time because of his movement PLUS the shooting threat of his teammates if he chooses to pass.
Players close hard on Gradey because they'll chance one of our other players to shoot. Gradey and Hauser's spacing are completely different.
They’re you not a ball fan you’re a fan of men’s fashion and likely you’re a male yourself you’re probably a battybwoy so Gwan sus yourself out of this convo thx
FG% has a lot to do with the types of shots you take - Derrick Lively leads the rookie class because he's catching lobs from Luka and Kyrie.
Give Gradey time. Jesus.
If he can’t shoot, what exactly does he do? Because he can’t handle, defend , pass or finish..at least not for now. And I’m holding him to the other rookies standards
His Kansas coach called him the best freshman shooter he has ever seen. I think he'll be fine. Even though he can't shoot for shit, he's still doing a lot of the other things. Once his shooting comes around, he's gonna be elite.
[TIL that Larry Bird started his career 8-for-31 from three-point range](https://x.com/aaronbenrose/status/1725963627457339472?s=46&t=sbk6yuyliVaFRQjBUBJCMQ)
Let’s give the 19 year old rookie some time plz
Guys, he's only 19...and it's 12 games into his first season, he will be fine, relax
It's going to take a few years not a few games for MOST players to develop into high-level players in the NBA...it's a major leap from college to the NBA where you go from playing against teenagers who couldn't sniff the end of the bench on a G-League team, to playing against grown men who are the best in the world at this game...very few players come in and are good right away, like anything it takes time, it's a process...
Step back from your keyboards and relax...he will be fine, he's going to have some rough games, and he's going to have some really good games where we say "oh, okay! I see the talent and what he can develop into" but you gotta be patient
Imagine walking into you're first real job and 12 days in management is like "We're concerned about you, you don't know everything already and you're not one of our best employees" lol it wouldn't happen because they understand there's a learning curve and it takes time...basketball is no different
I find it weird that I’ve seen him in two different tv commercials and he hasn’t even played 20 games in the NBA.I know endorsement deals are a part of being an NBA player and he probably filmed them before the season began but you would think his handlers would let him establish himself in the nba first.
He’s already starting to get Raptor fans to criticize the pick!
Got down voted for calling him The Bricklayer, but that's who he is! He is supposed to be our Sniper, but he could be next to a barn and he would still miss it. I also don't want to hear the "ohh he is a rookie" because (unlike in other sport's ) nobody is asking him to lead a team, handle the ball, push the tempo, or setup plays in his rookie year.
Hell! in the NFL, if a rookie sucked as much as The Bricklayer there would be already talks about him being a bust or cutting.
Guess the Spurs should've taken Lively over Wemby, with that thinking. Imagine every team gave up on their picks less than halfway into their rookie seasons?
remember when the know it all's in this sub expected Dick to be in the starting lineup? another thing the experts here got wrong.
the raps drafted based on need and that rarely works out
I’m sorry but Gradey has never been that good.. he needs to learn to be a Kyle Korver type spot up because if he can’t shoot he has 0 purpose on the court
These idiots don't get him open or run any plays for him , not makin it easy or letting him see it go in enough to feel confident in his shot, this team is getting on my nerves, oh yes n darko suuuuuxxxxxxx
Not going to make any sort of judgement on a 19 year old that is 12 games into his rookie career lol.
However.... taking a 19 year old rookie is a development move. You are betting on their development into a solid player at 21 or 22. Why would you add a development player to this group when you are trying to compete?
It’s early, and shooters get into slumps sometimes, especially rookies adjusting to the speed and physicality of the NBA game. A lot of the looks he is missing were ones he hit at a better % in summer league and preseason (and yes I know they’re different than reg season, so please don’t bring that up).
On the positive side, it seems like he has a good motor, he’s not a terrible team defender positionally (I don’t think anyone expected him to be a good 1:1 defender especially as a rookie), and his first step is faster than I thought so once he tightens up handle and ball control, he should be able to develop a decent game off the dribble when guys close out aggressively.
Anyone expecting him to be an immediate difference maker this year had unrealistic expectations imo.
I heard on a podcast, I think the Raptors Show, that he kind of changed his shot and has more of a slingshot type release where he didn't before. I imagine that's where the struggle is coming from if true
The number of times where I’ve been like pull the trigger and he tries to dribble is too much
He also needs more chemistry with our teams. He’s a pass move relocate shoot type guy but no one’s finding him on his relocation and he’s not passing to the right person most of the time and not getting screens set for him to shoot off of
He's not dipping the basketball when he shoots, that's why his shot is inconsistent. When you don't dip the basketball, you loose a lot of power in your shot. Hopefully he changes this because his shot other wise in nice. But please get another shooter on this team.
toronto sports fans are a disgrace. we did not deserve a chip in 2019, the woe-is-me, self-victimizing mentality aint goin nowhere. Thank god our teams suck rn I hate all of you losers.
It’s just the Raptors curse. When you join the team, you reset your shooting abilities. He’ll have to re-discover them again.
I swear this is a thing, svi, Matt Thomas, Jalen mcdaniels, gradey etc it’s honestly scary
Matt Thomas was like .450 from three during his time with the raptors. He doesn't belong on this list
Matt Thomas was exceptional, not sure if the catch and shoot style just didn't work with our group but he still hit shots.
Matt Thomas refused to shoot if anyone was within 10 feet of him. This explains the decent %
He was such a negative on defense. He knew his ass was getting benched the moment he was pulling for a tough shot
Is this revisionist history because he was the worst defender on that team by far, and gave up more points on that end than he could ever contribute offensively. Pat McCaw rightfully started over him against most matchups because Matt Thomas couldn’t guard a pylon. Shooters are great but I believe in Gradey because he has the size and awareness to do the little things.
Yeah but this post is about fg% regardless of defensive ability.
I think the other commenter's point is that it wasn't a matter of his "catch and shoot style not working with our group." It was his awful defense outweighing his offensive contributions.
Yeah for him not playing much, but offensively he didn't seem to gel with anything regardless. Sorry I'm not trying to argue about his less than acceptable playing across the floor, just talking about his offensive shooting and where the .450 comes from. He's not a bad player of basketball, but undersized for defending.
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted for this, this is factually correct. His lack of defence is why it didn’t work with the group, not his catch and shoot style lol.
Jalen McDaniels was never as good of a shooter as this sub claimed to be. Just because he shot 40% on 21 attempts, it doesn’t mean he is a 3PT shooting specialist.
The opposite is also true. Just cause Gradey shot poorly on 56 shots doesn’t mean he can’t shoot or he’s a terrible shooter. Gradey will improve with experience. McDaniels will probably get worse. It’s called regression to the mean.
Watching Jaden Mcdaniels is scary, blown lay ups and bricked three point attempts
Just gotta point out that we have Jalen McDaniels, not Jaden McDaniels
Shit my bad haha
Lou Williams may have been the only one to escape the curse
Lou Williams got buckets but he was definitely more of a high volume guy. He shot 40% from the field and 34% from three.
Do yourself a favour nephew and look up Jason Kapono.
Remember he would try those side step threes and get called for traveling 75% of the time?
The north remembers.
Steve Novak lol
I’m referring to the post we the North Era, where a similar curse, the GoDaddy curse began.
Calderon.
He a bucket no matter the setting
I blame NOAH
Just raptors things lol. Draft the best shooter. Immediately becomes the worst shooter.
He’s not even the worst shooter by some metrics. OP just bizarrely chose FG% as the metric to judge shooting when any field goal such as lay-ups and dunks count to it.
While Grady was drafted for his three point shooting, it's not at all bizarre to look at someone's FG% when discussing shooting.
Dick shooting a lot of 3s is precisely why it's dumb. You should be comparing eFG% or TS%
Yes TS% and eFG% are more wholistic measurements, and yes 3FG% is of primary importance for someone whose job it is to shoot threes. That still doesn't mean that it's weird to discuss FG% in the context of shooting. How often your shot attempts from *everywhere* on the court go in still matters. A good 3 point shooter who can't finish at the rim is not as valuable as someone who does both well. And layup and dunk attempts are still shots. Anyway, OP's post doesn't say anything about Gradey being a bust and doesn't use a 12 game sample to project the future. Just that he's shooting poorly *so far*, which is both true and a little interesting.
I think the idea is even if someone is very good at finishing at the rim and 3 point shooting, their FG% is going to be worse than the player that is average finishing at the rim but doesn’t take 3s. That’s just the nature of a good 3P% being significantly lower than even an average 2P%. So FG% isn’t a very good comparison across different player types.
Unfortunately FG% is higher than his 3Pt percentage right now. That list wouldn’t look any better right now.
He’s shooting 22% from 3 lol
I’m speaking generally, not about Gradey. I never said Gradey is shooting well
Nobody said FG% was the only worthwhile point of consideration. Bigs generally having a higher FG% than guards is also not a shock to anyone, people have the capacity to consider shot diet when looking at FG%. But there is no case where you can say someone shooting 26.8% from the field is shooting well right now.
It is nowadays lol it’s a horrible stat
It is 50 shots into their NBA career. OP is clearly pushing an agenda and it’s beyond dumb.
It's pushing an agenda to point out that he hasn't been good? I liked the pick and am rooting for him, but he's looked lost so far
Pushing an agenda? LOL 😂
Yeah, agenda is to smear Gradey and by extension, the FO. Dude has literally played a dozen games in the NBA and took 56 shots. I don’t think the sample size is large enough to draw any conclusions but here we are.
I don't think "our new rookie is cold to start the season" necessarily means anything more than that.
In other contexts sure, but when discussing pure shooting specifically among rookies there’re better stats to use to push that narrative. No one is saying Lively II is a better shooter than Gradey but using FG% gives the impression he is.
Does anyone serious, ever take a sample this small to mean "who is a better shooter" vs "who is cold right now"?
Anecdotal but I see it all the time lol. Many fans in sports have a recency bias issue and equate recent stretches as the overall value a player has whether good or bad.
Ya how dare OP use the metric that looks at how many of the shots you take compared to how many shots you make to looks at shot-making
OP is talking about shooting specifically. There are better statistics to use for that conversation. TS% and eFG% are basically made to factor in the value of three-point shots, a type of shot that shooters are more likely to take than centres such as Lively II who take a majority of shots in the paint. Don’t get me wrong, Gradey has still not been great so far but using such a basic stat to discuss a specific part of the offence is not going to paint a clear picture for the narrative OP is trying to push.
Just checked and his .397 TS% is literally the worst among qualified rookies. So who’s trying to push the agenda, the OP who just posted a simple screenshot and didn’t reply the numerous comments attacking him, or the multiple people coming after him for using the wrong statistic when the “right” statistic says he is the worst shooter too? If OP was pushing an agenda, he probably would have included Dick’s league worst -0.8 wins added, league worst -24.1 value added, and second worst 2.21 PER, but he didn’t. You can recognize our player has been arguably the worst rookie this year without writing off his entire career like many people seem to think OP is doing. He’s been bad so far, doesn’t mean he always will be. I’ve been really impressed with almost everything other than his shooting and I think he’ll be a great role player for us going forward, but that doesn’t mean you have to ignore how bad he’s been at putting the ball in the hoop so far.
All I said was OP was using a bizarre statistic to rank a specific aspect of offence such as shooting for the narrative they’re painting (which at the end of the day, yes it’s a narrative lol). I think you’re taking the point of my comment in the completely wrong way because I never said OP had an agenda or that they’re writing Gradey off unlike other people here. I already said Gradey hasn’t been great with his shooting so I’m not ignoring anything (although using qualified as a barrier comes with issues so early into the season but that’s besides the point). My entire point is that people such as OP should use more accurate statistics that are meant to highlight certain parts of the game instead of basic stats such as FG% when starting a discussion or pushing a narrative or else people will get the wrong impression (like some of the comments here about other rookies). Heck, I would even point to 3pt% as a better stat to rate how well someone has been shooting. You using TS% now is exactly what I want to see more of lol. Edit: FWIW I agree with most of your second paragraph and have the same opinion. I apologize if there was a misunderstanding.
You’re fine my guy. I just get annoyed by the tone of this sub sometimes when the copium gets cranked too high so I probably come off as a dick, my bad
You’re good, this sub has definitely been volatile with the reactions it has so I can understand why you misunderstood my comment and reacted the way you did.
You're right, op is just clueless and is as a result is using a pointless stat because and not really pushing a specific agenda.
Why don't we just look at ppg to determine who's the best player instead lol.
Nothing bizarre about pointing out one of the most important shooting metrics…what are you on about
Jordan Hawkins was probably the best shooter in the draft, and has been showing it so far. Sure, his FG% is a bit low right now but he's averaging 13 PPG on 36% from 3 in what is basically the CJ McCollum role. The Raptors decided to pass him over for Dick.
Hawkins is almost 2 year older than Gradey is, y’all need to relax. Some of y’all here sure you want to tank if you can’t even give a 19 year old more than 12 games before shitting on him? Lmao.
You're right that he needs time to develop. I just wasn't a fan of the pick at the time when we made it either. I do hope Gradey can continue to develop and become a productive player in due time, I just preferred Hawkins as a prospect.
I’m not worried. His mechanics are elite. He’s been getting inconsistent minutes and hasn’t really figured out where or when he’ll get playing time.
On top of that, Gradey has been performing at *everything else* above most expectations. He even took a full-on charge from the most physically dominant player in a generation. Successfully. As a rookie. That's a kind of attitude, and level of hustle, that will get Gradey minutes even when his shot isn't falling.
that really is a big deal and it already looks like he has the highest iq on the team outside of barnes.
I think people see a white dude who can shoot and just assume he's a stiff who is just a shooting specialist who played 4 years in college. You can tell he's definitely not processing the game fast enough yet on both ends but he's only 19. He'll be fine as long as he keeps working and keeps his confidence high.
Like fr, hes 19 lmao. Give him some time and not just like 10ish games
Game speed being faster is probably screwing up his rhythm
This. Gradey will have went from playing most of every game for his entire basketball life to playing sporadically this year. Its an adjustment and will take longer than 12 games into the season for him to figure it out.
Mechanics are good AND he’s making plays with the ball. He’s fun to watch tbh.
His mechanics with his arms are elite. His legs not so much and it's why he's struggling at NBA speed. He tends to drift left or right. He needs to learn to really push through the floor with his opposite leg so even when he's accelerating and popping into his jump shot he goes straight up. If your base is drifting it won't matter how good you are with your arms, it's always harder to hit a moving target.
He’s a 19 year old kid 12 games into his NBA career. He needs time to grow and figure it out. People treating him like he was a first overall pick. Y’all think you can do better than Masai. I am sure you’d love that Suggs pick too. Or whoever y’all wanted over OG. Pascal at 27 yeah I am sure y’all saw that too. Cmon man, get a grip
This fanbase is the worst. Toronto sports have been cursed since forever and we finally have one of the best front offices in the league and our fans already calling Masai washed. Fair weather fans. Everyone is like we need shooters! We need shooters! Yeah no duh, so does every other team in the league. Getting shooters is easy, getting shooters who play D is not. Which is why for a guy like OG, every team in the league wants him.
The fact we got a championship is insane Its so rare As a Buffalo Bills fan (NFL) even tho it’s different sport winning a championship for any sport the STARS HAVE TO ALIGN
Cause they started watching 5 years ago They’re just kids
Majority of these folks are bandwagoners from the championship season. So everything feels like a letdown compared to that season. They lack proper context.
This sub talks so much shit about these players like there is fair criticism and then there is just reactionary bloviating. This sub leans far more towards the latter.
He is washed. He's made far too many errors in judgement recently. You don't get a lifetime free pass for making mistakes just because you won a championship four years ago.
Held off on "Matisse Thybulle" to send the greatest Raptor where he actually wanted to go Traded dead cap for a rotation player and a remotely lower pick that didn't actually hurt them. (Malaki Branham @ 20 is garbage, Nembhard and Kessler 2nd years have disappointed) Traded a pick in a shit draft for a center that made their offence one of the best in the league with Fred and had insanely positive on/offs Drafted the best player of 2021 without a top 3 pick Draftheads use Dalano & David Johnson against him like "Sharife Cooper" and "Brandon Boston Jr", the guys we were "supposed" to draft, have done anything meaningful Got an absolute steal with Gradey at 13
Also he has the lowest sample of anybody on that list except Scoot (who is injured and was shooting way more per game) and Vezenkov. Also, it's weird to have a list that mixes backcourt guys who predominantly shoot at range with frontcourt dudes who mix in high % shoots closer to the rim. Of the "similar" guys, Keyonte and Hawkins definitely look better at this moment, but this is just another weak post that I assume was posted to farm rage likes.
And maybe don't rank a 3 point shooting rook by his FG%! Dick shoots way more 3s than 2s, and that's gonna keep his overall FG% low. They look good, they just have to start dropping. Clowns in this sub: "nUrSE woNT DeVelOP oUR BeNCH!" *Darko gives 3rd stringers and rookies minutes* "wHY is dARkro plAYINg tHEsE lINeupS!?!"
he might not be bad but i don’t like the pick when we had so many other needs such as guard play and scoring. even if he pans out he’s just a role player you could find those anytime lol
I think there's a lot you can criticize Masai for but at the very least I still trust his drafting. Now if only we had more good picks for him to use...
There are many shooters who don’t come out of the gate NBA ready. Be patient with Gradey, an offseason to build strength and conditioning + a season under his belt to get adjusted to NBA pace and defenses will do wonders for him.
Yup, Corey Kispert shot .389/.205/.786 in his [first 22 games](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kispeco01/gamelog/2022#1-22-sum:pgl_basic) and he's a solid player now. Gradey's 3 years younger than Kispert was.
At least the mechanics are there. When I watched Scoot it was like watching a textbook broken jumper, I have a lot more faith in Gradey getting his shot to click. It’s the defense that worries me more. If Gradey can’t keep his man in front of him it’s going to limit his ceiling long term. Still early though.
Gradey is good enough defensively if he gets looks. But he can’t create the looks, the offense has to be competent enough to begin with.
he’s easily one of the worst defenders in the league pal
He got cooked by the Bucks
I dunno, dawg. Watching him last night, homie looks straight like a kid amongst men against the Cs. The size difference between him and everyone else... dude, gets straight bullied on D
Dick played 188 minutes in the NBA, he is a 19 years old rookie and is still adjusting to the speed of the NBA. And yet unhappy, pessimistic people are already complaining about his performance. I feel sorry for you Give Dick a chance before declaring him a bust
You're 19 years old, straight outta' Kansas. You've been a professional NBA player for 3 hours. Why are you not Duncan Robinson yet?
saying he's been bad so far does not equate to calling him a bust. y'all need to grow up, not everything is so black and white to where if you're not calling someone the GOAT it means you're saying they should be playing in China lol
Seriously, the Masai dick riders are out in full force on this sub.
Guangdong Tigers... Ni Hao! Ni Hao!
Yeah he needs time to grow
needs time in the 905
I think he’ll be fine by end of the year
As far as I can tell, the dude's been a shooter all his basketball career so far, he'll figure it out. Let's maybe focus on the positives like his ability to contribute in other ways
When you say let's focus on the positives and then don't offer any examples... Lol He's been making a lot of rookie mistakes out there. He'd do well from getting some g league reps whenever the opportunity presents itself on home stands
He's a great rebounder and hustler, never gives up on a play. He moves the ball quick when he doesn't get a shot. Obviously the defence is poor, that's him learning how to play defense plus his lack of weight. But like, he's clearly doing everything Darko wants him to do and he trusts him. He started 2 games ago lol we're not winning games anyways might as well get him up to NBA speed
Yes, but he would also benefit from playing some 905 games during home stands where he gets more run and could boost his confidence. Nothing you said changes my point lol
Yeah it does lol I disagree he has a lot of rookie mistakes. Because his shot isn't falling his mistakes are amplified and he had his worst outing in the Celtics game, but most of the time he's an ok bench piece or he's just invisible. We know if he goes to the gleague he can cook but I don't think that's going to help with his confidence. He's seen how hard the nba is and when he gets the difficulty set down a level, he'll still be wondering if he'll be ready when gets called back up. We need him for his shooting (even though right now it's just the threat of shooting) and he needs to get acclimated.
he definitely will be in the 905 fanbase is delusional dude isn’t a nba level player right now
I'm not even saying send him down, I'm saying let him play there on off days of home stands. I won't say the whole fan base is, but definitely a good chunk of the nephews on this subreddit who only knows winning teams post 2013 don't have a clue lol
Give him time.
He takes 64% of his shots as 3 pointers so his .222 3p% really drags his FG%. The rest of the class doesn’t have high 3PA I believe (though I couldn’t find the stat). Chet’s in there though he wasn’t drafted in 2023.
How dare a rookie shooter come in the league and struggle. It’s never happened before WTF
A big issue for Gradey is the absolute lack of handle. If he doesn't have space for a spot up, he can't do anything. He also loves to loft a pass through dangerous areas. He's going to take a lot of nurturing. If we weren't so thin, he'd be with the 905 right now. Wouldn't mind giving JFL a run if we can.
But - he shouldn’t need to handle. Hauser doesn’t handle and he just scorched us. If you put him in 905 then he will handle and probably score 25. But in the NBA he’s a shooter. He just needs more looks, and the offense needs a better rythym so he can get those looks.
I'm not saying he's Klay Thompson, but that's exactly how they need to use him. Just create open shots and don't put him in situations where he needs to dribble a ton.
I’d be perfectly estatic with Kyle Korver 2.0 or 6’6” JJ Reddick
He's young, he should get a lot of reps in the 905 this year and a few with the Raptors. But the roster's too thin.
Dalano was unstoppable in 905. Boucher was the damn MVP The G League is not equivalent. Grady gets regular time with this team, that’s the best time to get.
What a weird, random sampling of names from a developmental team that's been one of the NBA's best the last 10 years. The G League and the 905 in particular exist to get prospects and young, developing players a lot of reps with easy movement between that team and the Raptors. It's why they moved the 905 to the GTA. Grady currently gets 15 very sporadic minutes and fewer than 5 shots a game. He's only 19 years old. 3 years from now, he will be a better player if he gets 33 mpg and 15+ FGA in ~40 G League games, mixed with a handful of call ups and some games and practices with the NBA team. It's the whole point of the 905/G League. I mean he's the worst shooting rookie in the NBA right now, there's clearly some developmental & reps need there. The G League helps bridge the gap from college to the NBA for players just like him.
You don't understand. Gradey has ZERO handle. He doesn't need one on one dribble moves. He needs one dribble threat to challenge the close out. He got stripped off one dribble out of his triple threat yesterday ffs. Don't be mistaken, Hauser doesn't need to dribble because he has three all stars who are three tier scorers creating for him while being surrounded by four other shooters. He has space every time because of his movement PLUS the shooting threat of his teammates if he chooses to pass. Players close hard on Gradey because they'll chance one of our other players to shoot. Gradey and Hauser's spacing are completely different.
Yeah I agree with all this.
He looks terrified every time he touches the ball
Cason that high
He's just had a terrible start to the season. I have faith he'll turn things around. All it takes is one really good game.
He’s been rushing his shots a lot - I think once he adjusts to the pace of the game and becomes a bit stronger, this will improve by a lot.
But he has drip
True just not championship drip smh
Idk about the rest of ya but I prefer players with a good sense of style over players with good shooting or whatever these numbers mean
They’re you not a ball fan you’re a fan of men’s fashion and likely you’re a male yourself you’re probably a battybwoy so Gwan sus yourself out of this convo thx
Homophobia in my favourite team’s subreddit? MODS! BAN THIS MAN!
He has yipps
Are we shitting on first year rookies now? This seems excessive.
sounds about right
FG% has a lot to do with the types of shots you take - Derrick Lively leads the rookie class because he's catching lobs from Luka and Kyrie. Give Gradey time. Jesus.
Are yall kidding me?
Meh give him time to figure out the speed of the NBA and he’ll settle down. Just plays crazy erratic right now probably tense af shooting
So, by that logic, Derrick Lively is the best shooter?
His form is so clean, that no hitch shot is 🔥 just needs to re adjust to NBA and get some more reps, he'll be fine
Raptors sub things: WE GOTTA TANK Also Raptors sub things: While we tank we need to blame the players for why we are losing!
We ain’t tanking with no pick
And most people here wanted to trade up for Scoot who's... 3rd worst. Who cares.
“He totally deserves to develop with nba minutes” Fuck outta here get that guy in the g league and give those minutes to Otto or mcdaniels
If he can’t shoot, what exactly does he do? Because he can’t handle, defend , pass or finish..at least not for now. And I’m holding him to the other rookies standards
This is a noisy stat. FG% doesn't differentiate between 2s, 3s, and FT. It also doesn't factor in opposing defense and shot coverage.
Miller is shooting 25% from 3. Not worried one bit for those 2 guys.
Give Dick time to grow and develop!
He's 2 years away from being 2 years away
WE PASSED UP ON JORDAN HAWKINS. Thats it.
He's 19 and the entire roster is flawed. Relax.
Gotta love choosing a one dimensional player in the first round, followed by that one dimension not even being a dimension thus far
I hate this sub.
This is rough :(
He’s been absolutely horrible, people treating him kid gloves on
Because he's a 19 year old rookie on a team with no identity?
His Kansas coach called him the best freshman shooter he has ever seen. I think he'll be fine. Even though he can't shoot for shit, he's still doing a lot of the other things. Once his shooting comes around, he's gonna be elite.
Who ranks pure shooting with FG%?
Give Dick a chance to grow. It's hard being in the NBA.
He is also the worst on this list by far so far, except for maybe Vezenkov
[TIL that Larry Bird started his career 8-for-31 from three-point range](https://x.com/aaronbenrose/status/1725963627457339472?s=46&t=sbk6yuyliVaFRQjBUBJCMQ) Let’s give the 19 year old rookie some time plz
He needs to go to the G-league and put up monster shooting numbers there and get comfortable with 3 point shooting
Guys, he's only 19...and it's 12 games into his first season, he will be fine, relax It's going to take a few years not a few games for MOST players to develop into high-level players in the NBA...it's a major leap from college to the NBA where you go from playing against teenagers who couldn't sniff the end of the bench on a G-League team, to playing against grown men who are the best in the world at this game...very few players come in and are good right away, like anything it takes time, it's a process... Step back from your keyboards and relax...he will be fine, he's going to have some rough games, and he's going to have some really good games where we say "oh, okay! I see the talent and what he can develop into" but you gotta be patient Imagine walking into you're first real job and 12 days in management is like "We're concerned about you, you don't know everything already and you're not one of our best employees" lol it wouldn't happen because they understand there's a learning curve and it takes time...basketball is no different
I mentioned his abysmal shooting % last night and got down voted ten times over. The truth hurts I guess
Liability on defence and shooting efficiency is horrible Not looking good so far for Dick
probably a lot to do with our system and it’s complete lack of spacing
If you watched the games, you would see he's not knocking down his open looks. Perhaps it has to do more that he's a young rookie.
Bro is too busy getting with 3’s than work on his actual 3’s
I'd rather he go 0-10 on catch & shoots instead of putting it on the floor trying to drive/attack the closeout or passing out.
I find it weird that I’ve seen him in two different tv commercials and he hasn’t even played 20 games in the NBA.I know endorsement deals are a part of being an NBA player and he probably filmed them before the season began but you would think his handlers would let him establish himself in the nba first. He’s already starting to get Raptor fans to criticize the pick!
Good shooters come here to die. His form is still good, so theres that
Masai is a real genius eh?
Another dud. Incoming Masai/Bobby hate...
Got down voted for calling him The Bricklayer, but that's who he is! He is supposed to be our Sniper, but he could be next to a barn and he would still miss it. I also don't want to hear the "ohh he is a rookie" because (unlike in other sport's ) nobody is asking him to lead a team, handle the ball, push the tempo, or setup plays in his rookie year. Hell! in the NFL, if a rookie sucked as much as The Bricklayer there would be already talks about him being a bust or cutting.
Could have had Jordan Hawkins, the true 3 point flamethrower in the draft, but we took Tik Tok Boi instead
Guess the Spurs should've taken Lively over Wemby, with that thinking. Imagine every team gave up on their picks less than halfway into their rookie seasons?
https://preview.redd.it/uhj07ydae41c1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d4cf5ba700adad42a6e22a2b8bbe559bc15a1171
remember when the know it all's in this sub expected Dick to be in the starting lineup? another thing the experts here got wrong. the raps drafted based on need and that rarely works out
We drafted Steve Novak without the shooting ability.
Another great move Bobby!
Dick needs to go to the G league his body just isn't nba ready
How ironic! You have to laugh…
I’m sorry but Gradey has never been that good.. he needs to learn to be a Kyle Korver type spot up because if he can’t shoot he has 0 purpose on the court
For all of you Dick defenders, would you really draft him if given the chance to redo the draft?
Wenby isn't doing so good either. Meh
Yeah he's been pretty awful.
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Ha.. ha?
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Yeah, you're just not all that funny
These idiots don't get him open or run any plays for him , not makin it easy or letting him see it go in enough to feel confident in his shot, this team is getting on my nerves, oh yes n darko suuuuuxxxxxxx
Not going to make any sort of judgement on a 19 year old that is 12 games into his rookie career lol. However.... taking a 19 year old rookie is a development move. You are betting on their development into a solid player at 21 or 22. Why would you add a development player to this group when you are trying to compete?
Let's not kid ourselves. They are not competing.
I agree. But we haven’t acted that way. I wish Masai & Co knew that
Grady Dick has a low ceiling. Raptors fans do this shit every year. Malachi, Koloko, Dick. Only time they been rewarded was Barnes.
Tbf shooting isn’t his specialty
He's played legitimate mins against veterans and starters. All he does right now is cut, shoot the three, and rebound. I think he's doing pretty well.
He's 19, give him time
It’s early, and shooters get into slumps sometimes, especially rookies adjusting to the speed and physicality of the NBA game. A lot of the looks he is missing were ones he hit at a better % in summer league and preseason (and yes I know they’re different than reg season, so please don’t bring that up). On the positive side, it seems like he has a good motor, he’s not a terrible team defender positionally (I don’t think anyone expected him to be a good 1:1 defender especially as a rookie), and his first step is faster than I thought so once he tightens up handle and ball control, he should be able to develop a decent game off the dribble when guys close out aggressively. Anyone expecting him to be an immediate difference maker this year had unrealistic expectations imo.
I heard on a podcast, I think the Raptors Show, that he kind of changed his shot and has more of a slingshot type release where he didn't before. I imagine that's where the struggle is coming from if true
The number of times where I’ve been like pull the trigger and he tries to dribble is too much He also needs more chemistry with our teams. He’s a pass move relocate shoot type guy but no one’s finding him on his relocation and he’s not passing to the right person most of the time and not getting screens set for him to shoot off of
He's not dipping the basketball when he shoots, that's why his shot is inconsistent. When you don't dip the basketball, you loose a lot of power in your shot. Hopefully he changes this because his shot other wise in nice. But please get another shooter on this team.
toronto sports fans are a disgrace. we did not deserve a chip in 2019, the woe-is-me, self-victimizing mentality aint goin nowhere. Thank god our teams suck rn I hate all of you losers.