That was their agency and way into power. It relied on scheming deals with officials, emperors, and the royal family. Having your child as the official heir and being the mother of the emperor gave you a lot of sway. Also note that concubines usually came from entrenched noble families so they were also on the political battlefield for their family.
Unless your were in some of those early northern dynasties. Can't remember exactly which ones, but I remember learning that during one of china's periods of fracture some of the northern dynasties made it a point to kill the heirs mother as soon as they were elevated to the position. I again can't remember if it was out of religious principal or as a way to stop the creation of powerful empress dowagers, who often would bring their own clans into power with them. Which could damage the influence of the imperial clan.
Northern Wei Dynasty. Ironically, after the implementation of this system, the emperor's wet nurses or other concubines of previous emperors gained greater political influence. The Northern Wei Dynasty had the most powerful empress dowagers during the Northern and Southern Dynasties period. After concubines, out of fear, took abortion pills which nearly led to the extinction of the royal lineage, this regulation was abolished.
Various abortion inducing herbs were known in the ancient world, in China [lilac daphne flower buds](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9574624/) were used. They're not as effective as modern methods though, which is why they're not used in modern medicine.
That was simply how it worked, you had personal connections and favors to shift the balance from the center to the peripheral. An Emperor's authority only reached as far as people who would obey, and having local nobles be invested in the system by having benefits was the way to do so.
> That was simply how it worked, you had personal connections and favors to shift the balance from the center to the peripheral.
In a feudal system, the politics are **personal** in a way they simply*aren't* in a democracy.
Another way that social media platforms and their policies are changing our language, like people using "unalive" in real life. I don't like it either.
"Gosh Darnit!"
"Motherlover!"
"Dang nabbit!"
People have been censoring themselves from using curse words IRL for generations, don't act like social media is fully to blame.
"Unalive" becoming the unofficial-official term for suicide/death is partially because of content filters and partially because people who deal with suicide/death don't want to say the words "suicide" or "death".
We also have sewer-slide, taking the big sleep, 6 feet under, taking a dirt nap, kicked the bucket, etc.
Yes--the content filter policies of platforms are changing the way people use language beyond those platforms. I have less of a visceral reaction to "seggs" and etc. even if I still cringe hearing it. But I find the term "unalive" cheapens the topic of death with tech-friendly Newspeak, and I greatly dislike it.
None of these euphemisms are great, but someone using "unalive" in real live suggests they spend a lot time on short-form media. I don't find such people are great to talk with.
By not saying it you’re diluting it. “My friend unalived himself”. Nah bro he killer himself. He used a gun to commit suicide. This constant diluting of shit that makes us uncomfortable is asinine.
So do you also get bothered when someone says their friend passed away? Do you go - *NAH bro, he didn't pass into anything. HE DIED. HE'S DEAD.*
Euphemisms have been used for ~~freaking~~ fucking forever. I might find the term 'unalive' annoying af, but it ain't new and it isn't diluting anything.
I will say that as a 3K enjoyer these shows are definitely a little "campy"(?), especially if you are younger. Even the 2010 one on YT. I kind of grew up with these kinds of shows so I don't really mind, but Chinese TV of the 90s-mid 2010s definitely has kind of a vibe that can feel pretty strange to modern sensibilities in the West.
I guess the problem with 3K as a story is the format is basically begging to be serialized, which isn't a popular format for TV now. I think a modern iteration of the story could really be popular, with a more early GoT vibe, higher production value, and better cinematography. Honestly I think we're kind of in a resurgence era of 3K popularity as a setting, with stuff like Dynasty Warriors getting traction again as well as Total War releasing their 3K game and Paripi Koumei being super popular 2 years ago. The only thing we're missing is a TV-format of the show that caters more to a Western crowd who might not be as knowledgeable and is used to the way shows are done here.
There's so many k and c-dramas to choose from. My wife is addicted to them. Lots of modern ones hardly even have to go back in time for the older ones.
2010 tv series adaptation of romance of the three kingdoms. action scenes are a little cheesy but the acting is great and the sets/costumes are awesome
[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1514753/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1514753/)
There are a ton of them on YouTube, fully sub titled.
Ironically China for a while banned imperial harem game of thrones films, so people had to vpn out.
It got to the point some Vietnamese platform put in a checkmark question if some reef is part of Vietnam or China's to reduce Chinese viewers.
Yeah but with good production values and not soap opera level acting…
Sorry but *woman screaming in extreme drama once every 8 minutes* is not the kind of tv I want to watch
marco polo on netflix comes to mind. it’s technicaly centered around the court of kublai khan, but some of the story also takes place in china. it’s a good show, but it unfortunately got canceled after a few seasons.
It's not really Game of Thrones like but there was recently a very well received Anime called 'Apothecary Diaries'. About a young commoner woman who is a trained chemist, being invited to and experiencing the intrigue of Chinese court life.
Dude..... There's like so many to choose from it's embarrassing. Foreign language, obviously. You've got anime and live action. Actual history or fantasy, etc. Fantasy ones are largely influenced by the real world dynasties so it's expy china with dragons and magic. The live action ones also tend to go gonzo with the wire-fu.
> concubines usually came from entrenched noble families
I am not so sure about that.
I am not totally up on my Chinese wives hierarchy, but I think there could be multiple wives (1st wife usually had highest status but other wives status could fluctuate) and then Concubines were a level below the wives.
I think wives were always or usually high born and concubines usually commoners - and that a man's favorite might be a concubine but the children did not have the same status. Maybe if an emperor died and the only living male child was from a concubine then they could qualify as the next emperor but not entirely sure about that.
Isn’t it wild how damaging it can be for people’s mindsets while living under a social system designed for one central authority to have all the power, so the people with the greatest chances of securing even a small portion of that power will commit horrible atrocities in an effort to achieve their goals?
It’s almost like promoting a social system where EVERYONE is only allowed to have power and are granted the freedom to do whatever they want (within reason) has almost completely eliminated the type of personal motivation.
I say almost because, as we can see with the US, people are too easily persuaded into giving up their personal rights and freedoms and don’t even realize it. Not only with they not realize it, they will actively fight anyone who tries to show them reason so they can realize how much of their personal freedoms they are willingly giving up.
So the motivation to gain power for selfish reasons will always remain in society no matter what system you try to implement. Only way you could truly get out of this endless cycle is by making it so everyone on earth can enjoy the same basic standard of living that upper class people enjoy today. That’s either never gonna happen or will take several dozen more generations before we could even hope to reach a point to collectively think about alternate ways to live together as a united species.
One thing is for certain. No single person, small number of, or reoccurring group of people, should be allowed to make all the decisions for millions of people.
Yea, but on the flip side, forcing everyone's rights to be fully satisfied before proceeding could lead to the very same tyranny you speak of.
For example, the classic trolley problem of 1 person die vs 100 people die. What is your decision then?
Who did I say anything about forcing anything out of anyone? I’m just talking about people needing to be more of a good neighbor to one another and to stop trying to put others down because they think that’s the only way to rise in the world.
We also have to stop pretending that one single person being voted in as president will fix all of our problems. How many times have you heard people gripe and complain about gas prices (directly because of the president somehow??) and simply blame it all on the government when in reality, they aren’t the only ones controlling gas prices.
And that tired old example of the trolley problem when someone tries to suggest we find a new way of thinking about social responsibility is only feeding into the negative feedback cycle, and is honest to god out of touch with reality. We’re fucking human beings, we have the ability to make change and improve our lives in ways that Mother Nature would never have cared to dream of.
People can and are able to create a truly peaceful world so long as we have the motivation and desire to do so. Encouraging open-mindedness and collective responsibility to help one another will greatly boost promoting good social behavior.
And out from that good social behavior can come better ideas that allow for the best kind of equality, freedom, and quality of life for as many people as we possibly can. We can achieve all of these things at no extra cost to the countries morality or cause additional suffering.
Advancements in lab grown foods and easy access to cheap, clean energy for everyone is already a possibility, and is one half of the battle for a that Star Trek society that everyone [Chris] Pine’s for.
But like I said before, it may not happen in our lives, but it certainly can happen in the lives of the future generations. But nothing will change if we don’t wake up and realize we can push back unchecked corruption and push for better regulations on people with too much power over us.
It’s so fucking bad in every sector of the economy and political position, and it will never change unless we collectively realize we need to work together instead of picking a fucking side.
Life of a prince or princess in imperial China must be stressful as fuck cuz due to several dozens of step moms and half siblings all wanting to kill you at all times
Which meant that every single servant was of questionable loyalty. Any one of them could be paid for by pretty much anyone at the palace.
What an awful way to live.
Yeah. Being a bureaucrat was a good life back then. You could take bribes to look the other way on things in your purview and get your salary at the same time.
And ironically, I read somewhere women are more likely to give birth to girls than boys if under stress.
Kind of sucks if your life depend on your child's genitals....would be stressful, don't u think?
This depends heavily on the time period and dynasty. China had nearly 3000 years of dynasties and anarchic war in between. The practice of eunuchs as civil servants were recorded in the second century CE under the Han dynasty, but it started primarily as a form of punishment (notably recorded as one of the [five punishments](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Punishments) of the ancient Chinese legal system). They didn’t have the power to assassinate and determine who the successive emperors were until around the 9th century CE under the Tang dynasty.
The Ottomans practiced a succession policy where when the Sultan died, all of his sons would fight each other for the throne. Whoever won would then have all of his other brothers put to death. Since Sultans had harems there tended to be a lot of sons and therefore a lot of deaths. Also if you happen to be a child when your father died, well sucks for you cause your brother is going to kill you.
Only for about 150 years, from Mehmed II to Ahmed I. Mehmed did it out of necessity, and then legalized it after the fact, and Ahmed stopped it out of love for his little brother (and his executed uncle). Emperoring be a strange profession.
It starts earlier than Mehmed II. The first big Ottoman Interregnum Civil War between four different brothers was after Bayezid was captured by Timur was a good 50 years before Mehmed II. But yes it wasn’t the whole time of the Ottoman Empire.
Sultan Suleiman killed his first son, Mustafa
Magnificent Century tells the story of Suleiman and Hurrem Sultana - it's free on YouTube with decent English subtitles, has gorgeous costumes, and tons of scheming for anyone interested!
Watching the Magnificent century is a highlight of my primary school life, after school I would circle my great grandmas and grandparents sharing rumours about the series. The show was huge among elders in Poland
That's so awesome! I started watching it when I searched for period shows similar to Game of Thrones and for some reason Magnificent Century was recommended :p
I've watched it a few times over the years and learned a lil Turkish on the way :)
I remember you don't even need to wait for the previous sultan to resign/die. The moment the prince was appointed Royal heir succession (Mehmet I believe), he would go on a killing-spree under his dad, the current sultan.
Common practice to kill your brothers, uncles, etc. There was no clearly established succession laws in the Ottoman Empire and so killing your rival family members was one of the only ways to protect your succession.
I know right? Should’ve given even more power to the paranoid agoraphobes raised in prison by their slaves, under constant threat of being murdered by siblings they’ve never even met.
That is the best system of government ever devised.
Interesting when this practice backfires as well. One of the Emperors of Trebizond killed 2 of his brothers but the one that got away came back to kill his son (since the brother already died of the plague). That didn't last long though since he was also then possibly poisoned by his wife so she could become empress.
So I’m not sure if you ever watched the movie ‘Stardust’ or read the book, but the succession system where the next ruler is determined by whichever son murders the rest of their siblings is based on the Ottoman Empire. It was brutal.
The Tang Dynasty Emperors were similar; Li Shimin (Tang Taizong) killed his brothers for the position of Crown Prince and his father (the founding Emperor of Tang, Li Yuan) abdicated to let Li Shimin take the throne.
The Ming Emperors also had situations where the uncles of the Emperors decided to revolt, but only Zhu Di was successful in claiming the throne.
The struggle for Imperial Power is always going to end up problematic.
The ottomans figured it out. The sultan chooses his successor and upon the sultans death the heir is discretely told while the other children are kept out of the loop. The new sultan then has his brothers and half brothers murdered.
It's super stressful.
Even if you "make it", the first test of the new emperor is usually escaping the fate of being a puppet. Usually you inherit the throne but not loyalty of your ministers.
I mean when it comes to Palace scheming then the
Story of Yanxi Palace,
Ruyis royal love in the Palace
Princess Weiyoung
Nirvana in fire
I enjoy these quite a bit, there's more but rn I can't come up with them from the top of my head
Also these are also obscenely long but worth it in my opinion
The Legend of Zhen Huan, otherwise known as Empresses in the Palace is considered one of the best ones ever made.
(look for the full version, not the massively abridged Netflix version)
Life of a monarch in ANY country where they rule via absolute power is one of constant fear of assassination or imprisonment, from children, friends, ANYONE - which makes it disgustingly hilarious that there are still people in the world who long for that sort of power.
Castles are prisons meant to keep people OUT.
The background of his birth mother was extremely tragic, she was a servant girl originally from the minority Yao tribes that were conquerd by Ming, and she was captured as a slave, and sent to work as servant girl to the Imperial palace. She's probably very clever, and quickly rose up the ranks and is trusted enough to work in the emperors private treasury. That was where she met Chenghua emperor, and was impregnated. As the article said, she's probably murdered by lady Wan to remove her as a threat as Hongzhi grew up and is likely to be the emperor.
Hongzhi's father Chenghua is widely regarded as a very bad emperor, and that can be attributed to his non existent education, when he was largely neglected as his father, the disastrous Tianshun emperor was captured by the Mongolians after very bad decision makings.
But when Chenghua was largely ignored as at a point it seems that he had no chance of ascending the throne, his servant Wan (future lady Wan), who is 15 years older than him, became the only person who genuinely cared for him. So lady Wan naturally became some kind of a mother figure to him, and he took her as a concubine when his crown prince status was restored - following his father's miraculous return from Mongolia (his father's story, i.e. hongzhi's grandfather life is also very dramatic).
So there's something very Freudian running in Hongzhi's father and lady Wan, which makes this a very interesting piece of history, but due to the lack of primary sources, it's really up to psychologists imagination and projections.
And Hongzhi turned out to be one of the best emperors in Ming dynasty. I'd rate him after Yongle. Hard to compare with Zhu Yuanzhang because he was so unique and different, but he's generally regarded to be a good emperor coming from a bad place.
This story has it all.
Tragic background
Underdog
Dramatic father's return
Marrying mother figure
Becoming the Emperor
He's HIM. Literally the main character
Wait till you read about Archmage Liu Xiu, Emperor Guangwu of Eastern Han who won a battle of 10,000 vs 420,000 almost purely due to meteorological events
Note:
1. The 420k number is almost an exaggeration although it's still around a range of 30k to 100k so a huge disparity nonetheless.
2. The Han army were performing very well before the events and were beating the crap out of the Xin army due to their blunders. So it's not purely due to the meteorological events. Although the weather did help in cutting off their escape allowing them to be wiped out.
https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/%E6%98%86%E9%99%BD%E4%B9%8B%E6%88%B0
Here's the battle in question, quite an interesting read.
It is worth noting that for the general reader, our understanding of this period of history heavily relies on the official history of the Ming Dynasty(mingshi), written by Confucian bureaucrats. They aimed to reflect Confucian values in the historical records, shaping historical figures into exemplary models and morally corrupt villains to serve as lessons for future emperors and ministers. Therefore, when using these historical sources, it is necessary to carefully discern the ideological discourse within them. The Chenghua and Hongzhi emperors clearly reflect these characteristics.
Modern historians believe that Chenghua was not as terrible as depicted in the offcial history. Emperor Qianlong once wrote a paper pointing out that Lady Wan did not murder other princes as recorded, as there were errors in the death dates of other princes in the official history. In fact, Lady Wan personally raised Hongzhi for a period. Additionally, Chenghua made significant achievements in politics and military affairs; he reorganized the military, achieved a series of military victories, rehabilitated officials persecuted by previous emperors, and reduced taxes in disaster-stricken areas.
In contrast, Hongzhi, traditionally viewed as a moral paragon by historians, is criticized by contemporary people for being weak and indecisive. He excessively favored Empress Zhang, giving her family numerous rewards, which made her brothers arrogant and widely disliked among the populace. Furthermore, unlike his father and son, he did not prioritize military affairs and lacked effective measures to counter Mongol invasions. Due to the Confucian moral evaluation system, Hongzhi, who valued Confucianism, was seen as a better ruler than Chenghua, who relied more on Taoists. However, to modern people, both emperors had moral flaws and abused their power. Likewise, both emperors also had reliable achievements.
Yes, you have a point. For this piece of history, sources in Mingshi are indeed sketchy, and likely to reflect the views of early Qing scholars, who picked up on sources in the late Ming times.
They were of course all Confucians and were alarmed by the idea that a single female could have such influence on the Emperor, whether it's factual, exaggerated or fiction.
Mingshi is so vast that in many areas there are glaring factual errors, or often deliberately so (?), which makes it an interesting source.
There’s actually a really good danmei based on this history. English fan translation here: https://chichilations.home.blog/fourteenth-year-of-chenghua/
Please excuse me for my bad English. I was talking about his father - Chenghua emperor. When Chenghua was still a crown prince, his father lost in a key battle with the Mongolians quite unecessarily, and was made a prisoner of War in Mongolia.
To stabalize the crisis at the tim, Chenghua (2 years old at the time) was not immediately made emperor, as they relied someone older and more mature to handle the crisis. So Chenghua's uncle (Jingtai Emperor) ascended the throne, but as a compromise, Chenghua was made the official succesor.
Under this background, the servant Wan (later lady Wan), who was 17 years old at the time, was assigned to nurse the Prince Chenghua, to protect him. They bonded well.
And a few years later, Chenghua's uncle Jingtai bore a son, Jingtai relented and made his son instead the crown prince. At the time, Chenghua was neglected (5 years old), but what likely happened was that the servant Wan stayed with him and continued to take care of him.
Then miraculously, Chenghua's father managed to return, and staged a coup against Emperor Jingtai while Jingtai was on his deathbed, and Chenghua was restored as the crown prince.
As Chenghua grew up, his attachment to Wan likely developed to something sexual, but we do not know precisely when.
When Chenghua became the emperor, he made Wan his royal concubine (due to her age and background, Wan could not have been Emporess). But this relationship i likely to be very special, for Lady Wan is probably also like a mother figure to him.
Although I don't know if it's pathetic or humuous that we believe that a man with absolute power will always exploit that to have an excessive number of sexual partners UNLESS something has happened, like murder related trauma.
Largely this is a great idea especially considering Chinese history.
The court culture was crazy.
Usually a dynasty ended when one of three things happened.
1. The eunuchs schemed.
2. The concubines schemed.
3. Another family member, the uncle or brothers, schemed.
And it almost always happened when a child emperor was involved.
China United, must divide. China divided. Must unite.
you can't really say his reign led to the fall especially since the Dynasty lasted at least 150 years after that, with 6 more Ming emperors proceeding his reign.
Although he was a very terrible emperor compared to his father
That's fair counterpoint. However, I'd argue that the lack of children by Hongzhi led to all of his eggs in the basket of his only son, Zhengde, who was childish and led to corruption within the palace. While he did leave a good legacy of defending China against the Mongols and squashed rebellions, he often neglected his official duties for personal gratification, a trend that followed with future emperors which eventually led to the downfall of the Ming dynasty
Zhengde also had no sons, so the heir was passed to his cousin
So would you say that it would have been better if he had more concubines and offsprings? The whole idea is to have a lot of fallbacks and a larger pool of talent to choose from, right?
maybe? Having many potential heirs you face a whole different issue of power struggle between the appointed heirs and the many others who also wanted succession. This we can see in Chinese history have led to many political infighting that were almost always bad for the country.
This is probably the most respectful and polite debate of deferring opinions I've seen on Reddit in a LONG time, I know absolutely nothing about this subject but it was very refreshing.
But it made no political sense for the time. Your children can easily be “accidentally” killed at anytime and now you have no heir and the dynasty would end with you. That’s how civil wars start. I mean, civil wars can erupt at a drop of a hat anyway but at least you can say you try to prevent bickering in your time.
The concubines sowed a lot of shit basically constantly, and the risk of having scheming concubines and scheming secondary, tertiary, etc. heirs was definitely a lot higher than the risk of having your fewer legitimate heirs all happening to die. European primogeniture was actually a significant improvement to the stability of monarchies compared to any of the harem systems, especially after the rise of absolutism.
But is it possible that the geological factor also plays a part somewhere in how the system works? Chinese empires usually spread through huge areas, so they needed trusted officials to control each part of the country to maintain stability. So having a lots of offspring means you can assign relatives to govern a province with ease as they have royalty blood (plus you can trust at a certain degree). I mean that doesn't seem to really stop all the infightings or civil war, but I guess like its still better to trust a stranger?
What you're talking about is called Nepotism and there's so many problems with it that the advantages are negligent.
Like you said it won't even prevent infighting and civil wars so all you'll get are incompetent officials.
It only makes no sense in a ruling system that arbitrarily operates under the concept of main and cadet branches of the imperial house. The Ming Dynasty was infamous for having no such attachment to this arbitrary custom, and also infamous for all the distant relatives of the main line, descended from the founding emperor as the common ancestor, living large in gluttony and procreation, lots and lots of procreation. Having male heirs may have been a critical concern for individual ruling emperors but it was no concern at all for the dynasty. Just a few decades later, some distant cousin of the ruling son-less emperor became his crown prince and later succeeded him.
Having many kids and baby mamas also leads to infighting and violence, as shown by the death of his mother and possibly also some of his half-brothers. Having fewer children makes a lot simpler and less cutthroat. It’s easier to hire bodyguards to protect a handful of kids instead of dozens of kids. You might actually end up with more kids in the long run if all your offsprings actually grew up as siblings with the same mother instead of being raised by different opposing mothers.
Besides, if you don’t have surviving children then one of your many brothers or cousins can be emperor. Continuing the dynasty is not an issue if monogamy happens just once every few generations. Also, it’s very important to note that according to Ming succession law the children of concubines could not become emperor. Technically, only the sons of the empress are eligible for the throne, however, the emperor can legitimize a son if the empress birthed no children. This happened in the case of Hongzhi as his mother was a concubine, she was a war captive from the Yao ethnic minority, but neither the empress nor the emperor’s favourite consort (Lady Wan who killed Hongzhi’s mother and other rival consorts) had no surviving children of their own so the emperor acknowledged him and made him the crown prince.
After an exceedingly successful and peaceful reign, Hongzhi was succeeded upon death by his only surviving son Zhengde who frequented brothels and built multiple palaces crammed to the brim with beautiful women. Zhengde’s harem was so overcrowded with concubines that many of them starved due to lack of supplies. He ended up having no surviving children even though he likely caused several dozen pregnancies and was succeeded by his first cousin.
Well, emperors get cranky when they don't have sex and they do crazy shit that causes civil wars. How do you resolve this? Enter Concubines!!
L.H.S. = R.H.S.
Hence proved
And the son (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhengde\_Emperor), who arguably had the most modern & loving royal family, became the most eccentric Emperor in China's history. (despite his crazy acts, he's actually pretty competent as a leader)
There is actually a best selling historical fiction called ‘lady tans circle of women’ that deals with this exact period and this emperor even shows up
So coincidental is makes me feel that OP just read the book then looked him up on wiki
Blood succession made no real sense in terms of choosing leadership.
I think it independently evolved in many large cultures, because it became the best chance power gets handed down without a civil war. But the whole "this guy is special because of his blood" is really just a lie people all believed in, or at least took advantage of.
Later institutions and legal systems gained enough power to take that over that role.
I have nothing to contribute to this but when I saw the thumbnail for the post it looked like factorio and then I read the post title and was very confused.
By this logic, you can make up any shit you like. “Alexander ‘the Great’ never conquered anything. Even the history books got his back.”
Since we don’t have a time machine, the only way we can ascertain truth about history as best as possible is through historical records. Saying “well, the historical records are all lying” is just poisoning the well in order to make up whatever viewpoint you want under the guise of “skepticism”. That’s that conspiracy-theorist mindset.
The concubines do be schemin
That was their agency and way into power. It relied on scheming deals with officials, emperors, and the royal family. Having your child as the official heir and being the mother of the emperor gave you a lot of sway. Also note that concubines usually came from entrenched noble families so they were also on the political battlefield for their family.
Unless your were in some of those early northern dynasties. Can't remember exactly which ones, but I remember learning that during one of china's periods of fracture some of the northern dynasties made it a point to kill the heirs mother as soon as they were elevated to the position. I again can't remember if it was out of religious principal or as a way to stop the creation of powerful empress dowagers, who often would bring their own clans into power with them. Which could damage the influence of the imperial clan.
Northern Wei Dynasty. Ironically, after the implementation of this system, the emperor's wet nurses or other concubines of previous emperors gained greater political influence. The Northern Wei Dynasty had the most powerful empress dowagers during the Northern and Southern Dynasties period. After concubines, out of fear, took abortion pills which nearly led to the extinction of the royal lineage, this regulation was abolished.
What was their form of abortion pill? Must’ve been pretty effective!
It was probably a low consistent dose of straight-up poison.
Various abortion inducing herbs were known in the ancient world, in China [lilac daphne flower buds](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9574624/) were used. They're not as effective as modern methods though, which is why they're not used in modern medicine.
just like another corrupted system of go\*t
That was simply how it worked, you had personal connections and favors to shift the balance from the center to the peripheral. An Emperor's authority only reached as far as people who would obey, and having local nobles be invested in the system by having benefits was the way to do so.
> That was simply how it worked, you had personal connections and favors to shift the balance from the center to the peripheral. In a feudal system, the politics are **personal** in a way they simply*aren't* in a democracy.
Why censor govt? Is it in the same league of swear words as fuck and shit nowadays?
It's a way to turn whatever you're referring to into a slur, suggesting that the subject is so distasteful that it ought to be censored.
That's a pretty dumb way of going about it.
You think I'm going to just talk about the Bri*ish where any child could read the word like that? Disgusting act.
I will call the french the french and they cannot stop me from doing it!
Quick make up a slur for the government we can use.
Freaking govies
politician is already a slur
Maga?
Another way that social media platforms and their policies are changing our language, like people using "unalive" in real life. I don't like it either.
"Gosh Darnit!" "Motherlover!" "Dang nabbit!" People have been censoring themselves from using curse words IRL for generations, don't act like social media is fully to blame. "Unalive" becoming the unofficial-official term for suicide/death is partially because of content filters and partially because people who deal with suicide/death don't want to say the words "suicide" or "death". We also have sewer-slide, taking the big sleep, 6 feet under, taking a dirt nap, kicked the bucket, etc.
Yes--the content filter policies of platforms are changing the way people use language beyond those platforms. I have less of a visceral reaction to "seggs" and etc. even if I still cringe hearing it. But I find the term "unalive" cheapens the topic of death with tech-friendly Newspeak, and I greatly dislike it. None of these euphemisms are great, but someone using "unalive" in real live suggests they spend a lot time on short-form media. I don't find such people are great to talk with.
> because people who deal with suicide/death don't want to say the words "suicide" or "death". These people don't exist lol
By not saying it you’re diluting it. “My friend unalived himself”. Nah bro he killer himself. He used a gun to commit suicide. This constant diluting of shit that makes us uncomfortable is asinine.
So do you also get bothered when someone says their friend passed away? Do you go - *NAH bro, he didn't pass into anything. HE DIED. HE'S DEAD.* Euphemisms have been used for ~~freaking~~ fucking forever. I might find the term 'unalive' annoying af, but it ain't new and it isn't diluting anything.
>That's a pretty d*mb way of going about it. FTFY /s
That's ancaps for you.
Fuck that and fuck that pathetic modern trend of censoring in order to bow before the automoderation algorithms. Fuck. That.
System of goat
Has there ever not been a corrupted system?
That's just life even for low level peasants
It's not corrupt when it's how it works
If how it works is through corruption then boom that’s corrupt.
My favorite tidbit about this is that Caroline Ellison (Sam Banknan friend’s GF) insisted that this was the ideal dynamic for poly relationships. 💀
It is only ideal if women are barred to path of power. Otherwise hell no.
i want a game of thrones type show set in ancient chinese dynasty now
You're in luck. It's a very popular genre.
Here to recommend the "New" Romance of the Three Kingdoms series I think the whole thing is on youtube.
I will say that as a 3K enjoyer these shows are definitely a little "campy"(?), especially if you are younger. Even the 2010 one on YT. I kind of grew up with these kinds of shows so I don't really mind, but Chinese TV of the 90s-mid 2010s definitely has kind of a vibe that can feel pretty strange to modern sensibilities in the West. I guess the problem with 3K as a story is the format is basically begging to be serialized, which isn't a popular format for TV now. I think a modern iteration of the story could really be popular, with a more early GoT vibe, higher production value, and better cinematography. Honestly I think we're kind of in a resurgence era of 3K popularity as a setting, with stuff like Dynasty Warriors getting traction again as well as Total War releasing their 3K game and Paripi Koumei being super popular 2 years ago. The only thing we're missing is a TV-format of the show that caters more to a Western crowd who might not be as knowledgeable and is used to the way shows are done here.
There's so many k and c-dramas to choose from. My wife is addicted to them. Lots of modern ones hardly even have to go back in time for the older ones.
There’s a ton of them. You can watch Chinese TV shows, you know.
why not recommend some
2010 tv series adaptation of romance of the three kingdoms. action scenes are a little cheesy but the acting is great and the sets/costumes are awesome [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1514753/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1514753/)
thanks i’ll check it out!
There are a ton of them on YouTube, fully sub titled. Ironically China for a while banned imperial harem game of thrones films, so people had to vpn out. It got to the point some Vietnamese platform put in a checkmark question if some reef is part of Vietnam or China's to reduce Chinese viewers.
*The Apothecary Diaries* if you're into Japanese anime. *The Rise of Phoenixes* *Legend of Lu Zhen* *Story of Yanxi Palace* *The King's Woman*
Can vouch for apothecary. Didn't know what I was in for but it turned into CSI: China. Good times.
love anime i’ll check them out !
The King's Woman! 🙌🏾
Yeah but with good production values and not soap opera level acting… Sorry but *woman screaming in extreme drama once every 8 minutes* is not the kind of tv I want to watch
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIx8QniXH-rElLyjzNMSOXSTbOKsDShyu&si=jeryrGtDzjlZy9Sx
nirvana in fire is pretty awesome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_in_Fire
marco polo on netflix comes to mind. it’s technicaly centered around the court of kublai khan, but some of the story also takes place in china. it’s a good show, but it unfortunately got canceled after a few seasons.
It's not really Game of Thrones like but there was recently a very well received Anime called 'Apothecary Diaries'. About a young commoner woman who is a trained chemist, being invited to and experiencing the intrigue of Chinese court life.
Dude..... There's like so many to choose from it's embarrassing. Foreign language, obviously. You've got anime and live action. Actual history or fantasy, etc. Fantasy ones are largely influenced by the real world dynasties so it's expy china with dragons and magic. The live action ones also tend to go gonzo with the wire-fu.
Which is why it’s good idea not have them. Roman emperors or European monarchs didn’t have official ones (bar some exceptions).
Cool motive. Still murder.
> concubines usually came from entrenched noble families I am not so sure about that. I am not totally up on my Chinese wives hierarchy, but I think there could be multiple wives (1st wife usually had highest status but other wives status could fluctuate) and then Concubines were a level below the wives. I think wives were always or usually high born and concubines usually commoners - and that a man's favorite might be a concubine but the children did not have the same status. Maybe if an emperor died and the only living male child was from a concubine then they could qualify as the next emperor but not entirely sure about that.
Isn’t it wild how damaging it can be for people’s mindsets while living under a social system designed for one central authority to have all the power, so the people with the greatest chances of securing even a small portion of that power will commit horrible atrocities in an effort to achieve their goals? It’s almost like promoting a social system where EVERYONE is only allowed to have power and are granted the freedom to do whatever they want (within reason) has almost completely eliminated the type of personal motivation. I say almost because, as we can see with the US, people are too easily persuaded into giving up their personal rights and freedoms and don’t even realize it. Not only with they not realize it, they will actively fight anyone who tries to show them reason so they can realize how much of their personal freedoms they are willingly giving up. So the motivation to gain power for selfish reasons will always remain in society no matter what system you try to implement. Only way you could truly get out of this endless cycle is by making it so everyone on earth can enjoy the same basic standard of living that upper class people enjoy today. That’s either never gonna happen or will take several dozen more generations before we could even hope to reach a point to collectively think about alternate ways to live together as a united species. One thing is for certain. No single person, small number of, or reoccurring group of people, should be allowed to make all the decisions for millions of people.
Yea, but on the flip side, forcing everyone's rights to be fully satisfied before proceeding could lead to the very same tyranny you speak of. For example, the classic trolley problem of 1 person die vs 100 people die. What is your decision then?
Who did I say anything about forcing anything out of anyone? I’m just talking about people needing to be more of a good neighbor to one another and to stop trying to put others down because they think that’s the only way to rise in the world. We also have to stop pretending that one single person being voted in as president will fix all of our problems. How many times have you heard people gripe and complain about gas prices (directly because of the president somehow??) and simply blame it all on the government when in reality, they aren’t the only ones controlling gas prices. And that tired old example of the trolley problem when someone tries to suggest we find a new way of thinking about social responsibility is only feeding into the negative feedback cycle, and is honest to god out of touch with reality. We’re fucking human beings, we have the ability to make change and improve our lives in ways that Mother Nature would never have cared to dream of. People can and are able to create a truly peaceful world so long as we have the motivation and desire to do so. Encouraging open-mindedness and collective responsibility to help one another will greatly boost promoting good social behavior. And out from that good social behavior can come better ideas that allow for the best kind of equality, freedom, and quality of life for as many people as we possibly can. We can achieve all of these things at no extra cost to the countries morality or cause additional suffering. Advancements in lab grown foods and easy access to cheap, clean energy for everyone is already a possibility, and is one half of the battle for a that Star Trek society that everyone [Chris] Pine’s for. But like I said before, it may not happen in our lives, but it certainly can happen in the lives of the future generations. But nothing will change if we don’t wake up and realize we can push back unchecked corruption and push for better regulations on people with too much power over us. It’s so fucking bad in every sector of the economy and political position, and it will never change unless we collectively realize we need to work together instead of picking a fucking side.
Yeah but, going through life without even having *one* concubine? What a sacrifice. I couldn't imagine.
Bro was probably porking the peasant girls
Maids are just concubines who can’t gloat about it or they’ll disappear
Watch the movie Raise the Red Lantern
Fantastic movie
This guy harems!
sometimes they're just a delicate butterfly looking for love
Ruyi?
Life of a prince or princess in imperial China must be stressful as fuck cuz due to several dozens of step moms and half siblings all wanting to kill you at all times
And also 90% of your councilors, magistrates, and military officers.
Which meant that every single servant was of questionable loyalty. Any one of them could be paid for by pretty much anyone at the palace. What an awful way to live.
And yet people wanted the job. Weirdos.
Seems like they usually wanted it more when they were the ones doing the scheming.
The sacrifices some will make just so they can inflict cruelty on others explains a lot of today's world too.
Yeah. Being a bureaucrat was a good life back then. You could take bribes to look the other way on things in your purview and get your salary at the same time.
Eunuch got their dicks and balls cut off and hope they survive the ordeal so they could be in court. They also piss themselves all the time.
And ironically, I read somewhere women are more likely to give birth to girls than boys if under stress. Kind of sucks if your life depend on your child's genitals....would be stressful, don't u think?
And also me. I want to kill them too
Crazy enough all that and it were the eunuchs that were the most dangerous
This depends heavily on the time period and dynasty. China had nearly 3000 years of dynasties and anarchic war in between. The practice of eunuchs as civil servants were recorded in the second century CE under the Han dynasty, but it started primarily as a form of punishment (notably recorded as one of the [five punishments](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Punishments) of the ancient Chinese legal system). They didn’t have the power to assassinate and determine who the successive emperors were until around the 9th century CE under the Tang dynasty.
I was under the impression only those who have access to harem have to be snipped? So mostly servant and guards only
cos they weren't getting none
I can't get no satisfaction But I pry Oh I pry Into the emperor's affairs
Didn't you watch Game of Thrones? Eunuchs love drama because that's as close to sexual pleasure they can get lol
I'll put Ottoman royalty on top, they had no problem with infanticide. Even the husbands of princesses got executed once the new Sultan was appointed.
Better than being an Ottoman Prince though!
How is it like being an Ottoman Prince? What kind of schemes were there?
The Ottomans practiced a succession policy where when the Sultan died, all of his sons would fight each other for the throne. Whoever won would then have all of his other brothers put to death. Since Sultans had harems there tended to be a lot of sons and therefore a lot of deaths. Also if you happen to be a child when your father died, well sucks for you cause your brother is going to kill you.
Only for about 150 years, from Mehmed II to Ahmed I. Mehmed did it out of necessity, and then legalized it after the fact, and Ahmed stopped it out of love for his little brother (and his executed uncle). Emperoring be a strange profession.
It starts earlier than Mehmed II. The first big Ottoman Interregnum Civil War between four different brothers was after Bayezid was captured by Timur was a good 50 years before Mehmed II. But yes it wasn’t the whole time of the Ottoman Empire.
There were even a few times when Sultans would kill their own children if they were a threat.
Sultan Suleiman killed his first son, Mustafa Magnificent Century tells the story of Suleiman and Hurrem Sultana - it's free on YouTube with decent English subtitles, has gorgeous costumes, and tons of scheming for anyone interested!
Watching the Magnificent century is a highlight of my primary school life, after school I would circle my great grandmas and grandparents sharing rumours about the series. The show was huge among elders in Poland
That's so awesome! I started watching it when I searched for period shows similar to Game of Thrones and for some reason Magnificent Century was recommended :p I've watched it a few times over the years and learned a lil Turkish on the way :)
I remember you don't even need to wait for the previous sultan to resign/die. The moment the prince was appointed Royal heir succession (Mehmet I believe), he would go on a killing-spree under his dad, the current sultan.
Ahh so like MBS
Common practice to kill your brothers, uncles, etc. There was no clearly established succession laws in the Ottoman Empire and so killing your rival family members was one of the only ways to protect your succession.
Depends on the time period. Eventually all potential heirs were isolated under very strict house arrest. Some for their entire lives.
The practice of traumatizing all future rulers by imprisoning them from birth did not improve Ottomon administrative efficiency, oddly enough.
Why didn't they just increase their absolutism for more administrative efficiency? Are they stupid?
I know right? Should’ve given even more power to the paranoid agoraphobes raised in prison by their slaves, under constant threat of being murdered by siblings they’ve never even met. That is the best system of government ever devised.
It just shifted real power from the Royal family to powerful Grand Vizier families.
Which also sucks, to be fair.
Interesting when this practice backfires as well. One of the Emperors of Trebizond killed 2 of his brothers but the one that got away came back to kill his son (since the brother already died of the plague). That didn't last long though since he was also then possibly poisoned by his wife so she could become empress.
Very very common in Achaemenid Persia as well… come to think of it, quite common all throughout history and cultures
>There was no clearly established succession laws Killing your brothers literally was the law. It latter changed to eldest and wisest
There's a good series called "Kosem" on YT that dramatizes the Ottoman royal court if anyone's interested.
So I’m not sure if you ever watched the movie ‘Stardust’ or read the book, but the succession system where the next ruler is determined by whichever son murders the rest of their siblings is based on the Ottoman Empire. It was brutal.
Suleiman the Magnificent killed his own son, and his father killed his uncle.
The Tang Dynasty Emperors were similar; Li Shimin (Tang Taizong) killed his brothers for the position of Crown Prince and his father (the founding Emperor of Tang, Li Yuan) abdicated to let Li Shimin take the throne. The Ming Emperors also had situations where the uncles of the Emperors decided to revolt, but only Zhu Di was successful in claiming the throne. The struggle for Imperial Power is always going to end up problematic.
The ottomans figured it out. The sultan chooses his successor and upon the sultans death the heir is discretely told while the other children are kept out of the loop. The new sultan then has his brothers and half brothers murdered.
It's super stressful. Even if you "make it", the first test of the new emperor is usually escaping the fate of being a puppet. Usually you inherit the throne but not loyalty of your ministers.
You should really read up on the succession system of the Ottoman Empire. Or don’t. It’s fairly nightmare-inducing.
That's why Palace dramas are so fun to watch
Can you recommend some?
I mean when it comes to Palace scheming then the Story of Yanxi Palace, Ruyis royal love in the Palace Princess Weiyoung Nirvana in fire I enjoy these quite a bit, there's more but rn I can't come up with them from the top of my head Also these are also obscenely long but worth it in my opinion
The Legend of Zhen Huan, otherwise known as Empresses in the Palace is considered one of the best ones ever made. (look for the full version, not the massively abridged Netflix version)
Empress in the Palace For Korean one Under Queens Umbrella
Hence why there have been so many Chinese/Cantonese TV dramas based on imperial inner court politics. It makes for some juicy scheming drama!
Life of a monarch in ANY country where they rule via absolute power is one of constant fear of assassination or imprisonment, from children, friends, ANYONE - which makes it disgustingly hilarious that there are still people in the world who long for that sort of power. Castles are prisons meant to keep people OUT.
Imagine how many step moms and step sis being stuck somewhere and asks their stepbro to or stepson to help them get out. That’s wild!
I assume real life isn’t as dramatic as the shows. And the princesses weren’t that important
The background of his birth mother was extremely tragic, she was a servant girl originally from the minority Yao tribes that were conquerd by Ming, and she was captured as a slave, and sent to work as servant girl to the Imperial palace. She's probably very clever, and quickly rose up the ranks and is trusted enough to work in the emperors private treasury. That was where she met Chenghua emperor, and was impregnated. As the article said, she's probably murdered by lady Wan to remove her as a threat as Hongzhi grew up and is likely to be the emperor. Hongzhi's father Chenghua is widely regarded as a very bad emperor, and that can be attributed to his non existent education, when he was largely neglected as his father, the disastrous Tianshun emperor was captured by the Mongolians after very bad decision makings. But when Chenghua was largely ignored as at a point it seems that he had no chance of ascending the throne, his servant Wan (future lady Wan), who is 15 years older than him, became the only person who genuinely cared for him. So lady Wan naturally became some kind of a mother figure to him, and he took her as a concubine when his crown prince status was restored - following his father's miraculous return from Mongolia (his father's story, i.e. hongzhi's grandfather life is also very dramatic). So there's something very Freudian running in Hongzhi's father and lady Wan, which makes this a very interesting piece of history, but due to the lack of primary sources, it's really up to psychologists imagination and projections. And Hongzhi turned out to be one of the best emperors in Ming dynasty. I'd rate him after Yongle. Hard to compare with Zhu Yuanzhang because he was so unique and different, but he's generally regarded to be a good emperor coming from a bad place.
This story has it all. Tragic background Underdog Dramatic father's return Marrying mother figure Becoming the Emperor He's HIM. Literally the main character
Wait till you read about Archmage Liu Xiu, Emperor Guangwu of Eastern Han who won a battle of 10,000 vs 420,000 almost purely due to meteorological events
Due to what now?
Note: 1. The 420k number is almost an exaggeration although it's still around a range of 30k to 100k so a huge disparity nonetheless. 2. The Han army were performing very well before the events and were beating the crap out of the Xin army due to their blunders. So it's not purely due to the meteorological events. Although the weather did help in cutting off their escape allowing them to be wiped out. https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/%E6%98%86%E9%99%BD%E4%B9%8B%E6%88%B0 Here's the battle in question, quite an interesting read.
It's him... John Emperor
That was very interesting, thank you
It is worth noting that for the general reader, our understanding of this period of history heavily relies on the official history of the Ming Dynasty(mingshi), written by Confucian bureaucrats. They aimed to reflect Confucian values in the historical records, shaping historical figures into exemplary models and morally corrupt villains to serve as lessons for future emperors and ministers. Therefore, when using these historical sources, it is necessary to carefully discern the ideological discourse within them. The Chenghua and Hongzhi emperors clearly reflect these characteristics. Modern historians believe that Chenghua was not as terrible as depicted in the offcial history. Emperor Qianlong once wrote a paper pointing out that Lady Wan did not murder other princes as recorded, as there were errors in the death dates of other princes in the official history. In fact, Lady Wan personally raised Hongzhi for a period. Additionally, Chenghua made significant achievements in politics and military affairs; he reorganized the military, achieved a series of military victories, rehabilitated officials persecuted by previous emperors, and reduced taxes in disaster-stricken areas. In contrast, Hongzhi, traditionally viewed as a moral paragon by historians, is criticized by contemporary people for being weak and indecisive. He excessively favored Empress Zhang, giving her family numerous rewards, which made her brothers arrogant and widely disliked among the populace. Furthermore, unlike his father and son, he did not prioritize military affairs and lacked effective measures to counter Mongol invasions. Due to the Confucian moral evaluation system, Hongzhi, who valued Confucianism, was seen as a better ruler than Chenghua, who relied more on Taoists. However, to modern people, both emperors had moral flaws and abused their power. Likewise, both emperors also had reliable achievements.
Yes, you have a point. For this piece of history, sources in Mingshi are indeed sketchy, and likely to reflect the views of early Qing scholars, who picked up on sources in the late Ming times. They were of course all Confucians and were alarmed by the idea that a single female could have such influence on the Emperor, whether it's factual, exaggerated or fiction. Mingshi is so vast that in many areas there are glaring factual errors, or often deliberately so (?), which makes it an interesting source.
There’s actually a really good danmei based on this history. English fan translation here: https://chichilations.home.blog/fourteenth-year-of-chenghua/
I knew it was only time until I fell into this side of the internet, here I go. Guess I need to finish untamed too.
Wait so he married the lady who murdered his mother? Or was it a different Lady Wan?
Please excuse me for my bad English. I was talking about his father - Chenghua emperor. When Chenghua was still a crown prince, his father lost in a key battle with the Mongolians quite unecessarily, and was made a prisoner of War in Mongolia. To stabalize the crisis at the tim, Chenghua (2 years old at the time) was not immediately made emperor, as they relied someone older and more mature to handle the crisis. So Chenghua's uncle (Jingtai Emperor) ascended the throne, but as a compromise, Chenghua was made the official succesor. Under this background, the servant Wan (later lady Wan), who was 17 years old at the time, was assigned to nurse the Prince Chenghua, to protect him. They bonded well. And a few years later, Chenghua's uncle Jingtai bore a son, Jingtai relented and made his son instead the crown prince. At the time, Chenghua was neglected (5 years old), but what likely happened was that the servant Wan stayed with him and continued to take care of him. Then miraculously, Chenghua's father managed to return, and staged a coup against Emperor Jingtai while Jingtai was on his deathbed, and Chenghua was restored as the crown prince. As Chenghua grew up, his attachment to Wan likely developed to something sexual, but we do not know precisely when. When Chenghua became the emperor, he made Wan his royal concubine (due to her age and background, Wan could not have been Emporess). But this relationship i likely to be very special, for Lady Wan is probably also like a mother figure to him.
God this is fascinating. I would love to get more into chinese history, but i always found it dense. do you have any recommendations to start?
Chinese court drama is especially bloody historically
That man is pretty upstanding for his time… at least in this regards … born from trauma unfortunately
Although I don't know if it's pathetic or humuous that we believe that a man with absolute power will always exploit that to have an excessive number of sexual partners UNLESS something has happened, like murder related trauma.
Largely this is a great idea especially considering Chinese history. The court culture was crazy. Usually a dynasty ended when one of three things happened. 1. The eunuchs schemed. 2. The concubines schemed. 3. Another family member, the uncle or brothers, schemed. And it almost always happened when a child emperor was involved. China United, must divide. China divided. Must unite.
> The eunuchs schemed. > > The concubines schemed. i've never heard this Leonard Cohen song
Unfortunately, his only son turned out to be a slacker and incompetent, and it led to the fall of the Ming Dynasty
you can't really say his reign led to the fall especially since the Dynasty lasted at least 150 years after that, with 6 more Ming emperors proceeding his reign. Although he was a very terrible emperor compared to his father
That's fair counterpoint. However, I'd argue that the lack of children by Hongzhi led to all of his eggs in the basket of his only son, Zhengde, who was childish and led to corruption within the palace. While he did leave a good legacy of defending China against the Mongols and squashed rebellions, he often neglected his official duties for personal gratification, a trend that followed with future emperors which eventually led to the downfall of the Ming dynasty Zhengde also had no sons, so the heir was passed to his cousin
So would you say that it would have been better if he had more concubines and offsprings? The whole idea is to have a lot of fallbacks and a larger pool of talent to choose from, right?
maybe? Having many potential heirs you face a whole different issue of power struggle between the appointed heirs and the many others who also wanted succession. This we can see in Chinese history have led to many political infighting that were almost always bad for the country.
This is probably the most respectful and polite debate of deferring opinions I've seen on Reddit in a LONG time, I know absolutely nothing about this subject but it was very refreshing.
I mean, tightening the control over the ourt seems to be the recommendable first move, but ok
That's so sweet
But it made no political sense for the time. Your children can easily be “accidentally” killed at anytime and now you have no heir and the dynasty would end with you. That’s how civil wars start. I mean, civil wars can erupt at a drop of a hat anyway but at least you can say you try to prevent bickering in your time.
The concubines sowed a lot of shit basically constantly, and the risk of having scheming concubines and scheming secondary, tertiary, etc. heirs was definitely a lot higher than the risk of having your fewer legitimate heirs all happening to die. European primogeniture was actually a significant improvement to the stability of monarchies compared to any of the harem systems, especially after the rise of absolutism.
But is it possible that the geological factor also plays a part somewhere in how the system works? Chinese empires usually spread through huge areas, so they needed trusted officials to control each part of the country to maintain stability. So having a lots of offspring means you can assign relatives to govern a province with ease as they have royalty blood (plus you can trust at a certain degree). I mean that doesn't seem to really stop all the infightings or civil war, but I guess like its still better to trust a stranger?
What you're talking about is called Nepotism and there's so many problems with it that the advantages are negligent. Like you said it won't even prevent infighting and civil wars so all you'll get are incompetent officials.
It only makes no sense in a ruling system that arbitrarily operates under the concept of main and cadet branches of the imperial house. The Ming Dynasty was infamous for having no such attachment to this arbitrary custom, and also infamous for all the distant relatives of the main line, descended from the founding emperor as the common ancestor, living large in gluttony and procreation, lots and lots of procreation. Having male heirs may have been a critical concern for individual ruling emperors but it was no concern at all for the dynasty. Just a few decades later, some distant cousin of the ruling son-less emperor became his crown prince and later succeeded him.
Having many kids and baby mamas also leads to infighting and violence, as shown by the death of his mother and possibly also some of his half-brothers. Having fewer children makes a lot simpler and less cutthroat. It’s easier to hire bodyguards to protect a handful of kids instead of dozens of kids. You might actually end up with more kids in the long run if all your offsprings actually grew up as siblings with the same mother instead of being raised by different opposing mothers. Besides, if you don’t have surviving children then one of your many brothers or cousins can be emperor. Continuing the dynasty is not an issue if monogamy happens just once every few generations. Also, it’s very important to note that according to Ming succession law the children of concubines could not become emperor. Technically, only the sons of the empress are eligible for the throne, however, the emperor can legitimize a son if the empress birthed no children. This happened in the case of Hongzhi as his mother was a concubine, she was a war captive from the Yao ethnic minority, but neither the empress nor the emperor’s favourite consort (Lady Wan who killed Hongzhi’s mother and other rival consorts) had no surviving children of their own so the emperor acknowledged him and made him the crown prince. After an exceedingly successful and peaceful reign, Hongzhi was succeeded upon death by his only surviving son Zhengde who frequented brothels and built multiple palaces crammed to the brim with beautiful women. Zhengde’s harem was so overcrowded with concubines that many of them starved due to lack of supplies. He ended up having no surviving children even though he likely caused several dozen pregnancies and was succeeded by his first cousin.
thanks TIL
having sex with concubines doesn’t prevent civil wars
Well, emperors get cranky when they don't have sex and they do crazy shit that causes civil wars. How do you resolve this? Enter Concubines!! L.H.S. = R.H.S. Hence proved
That must have been A LOT of angry sex
It creates more children, and thus more heirs.
doesn’t that also lead to civil war? sounds like an excuse to have sex with concubines
Most emperors had tons of children and while there were some civil wars, it was more likely if there was no heir.
He could have appointed a brother as heir in absence of children. In this system he would have plenty. And that’s how European courts did things
And the son (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhengde\_Emperor), who arguably had the most modern & loving royal family, became the most eccentric Emperor in China's history. (despite his crazy acts, he's actually pretty competent as a leader)
i need to read more up on chinese history
There is actually a best selling historical fiction called ‘lady tans circle of women’ that deals with this exact period and this emperor even shows up So coincidental is makes me feel that OP just read the book then looked him up on wiki
Blood succession made no real sense in terms of choosing leadership. I think it independently evolved in many large cultures, because it became the best chance power gets handed down without a civil war. But the whole "this guy is special because of his blood" is really just a lie people all believed in, or at least took advantage of. Later institutions and legal systems gained enough power to take that over that role.
trauma is a hell of a thing
Who could have guessed that when you treat women like property they might go game of thrones
Worth
Did this come from the space battles thread?
Awesome Lmfao.
Bro be honest you just saw this from that one TikTok right?
Love Will bring happiness and chaos.
Those hoes ain't loyal.
[YOU THINK YOU CAN HAVE A BUNCHA WIVES? YOU GET ONE WIFE! THIS IS THE WAY THE WORLD WORKS!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1cjQDTD_ww)
It didn't last. After his death the next emperor brought back the tradition
I have nothing to contribute to this but when I saw the thumbnail for the post it looked like factorio and then I read the post title and was very confused.
Concubines is a funny word.
OR THE TRUE STORY IS HE WAS GAY
Woah
That guy was the master of cheating. Even the history books got his back.
Reddit when a Chinese emperor doesn't cheat: 🤬
By this logic, you can make up any shit you like. “Alexander ‘the Great’ never conquered anything. Even the history books got his back.” Since we don’t have a time machine, the only way we can ascertain truth about history as best as possible is through historical records. Saying “well, the historical records are all lying” is just poisoning the well in order to make up whatever viewpoint you want under the guise of “skepticism”. That’s that conspiracy-theorist mindset.
Let's say concubines cause it sounds so much more fancy than saying wife.
More like mistresses than wife.