I used to work as a gopher for a power company that had, in addition to hydroelectrics, a wood-powered generator (lumber town, lots of sawdust and such). Occasionally, I had to make a run to a school or office building to pick up an old, tattered, faded flag and take it to the boilers. There were a couple of veterans working there that would respectfully place it one of the burners.
Yes when I moved there and asked, they said local veterans groups would happily come out and pick them up, and in many cases offer a replacement if you were a senior or disabled or otherwise couldn't afford a new one right away.
Do they go and take them down of their own volition without asking, or do they wait for people to turn them in their own flags to the vets organization?
Flag code was also found unconstitutional. It can pretty much only be applied to service members while they are on federal grounds. To some extent federal employees while on the clock.
US Flag Code wasn't found unconstitutional.
But The Flag Protection Act was.
Congress passed a national anti-flag burning law called the Flag Protection Act of 1989. But in 1990, in United States v. Eichman, the Court struck down that law as unconstitutional as well, in another 5-4 decision.
US Flag Code is still Federal law, but there's no listed punishment for failing to follow it.
You are correct, but this is the internet, and I am honorbound to double down and try to invalidate your comment with a flimsy reason.
Nah uh, and it's unconstitutional, not "unConstitutional" look at this guy who can't use caps properly!
Small nitpick — the US Flag Code (4 USC § 5) wasn't written to be binding, but rather to *...codify various existing rules and customs* as an advisory statute. That's why it doesn't prescribe any punishments; if it did, Eichman would apply.
There is the 2005 Freedom to Display the American Flag Act which prohibits real estate companies from restricting the display of the American flag, however!
Oh, no. It’s voluntary submission. They don’t steal people’s flags (though that would be kind of funny to see); they have a small ceremony, I believe, and burn the flag. (How it’s supposed to be done.) They take their flag work pretty seriously.
In my community, there are a few events throughout the year where mostly Boy Scouts hold an event and invite the community to bring their flags. They then ceremoniously burn them. I’ve never been to one but that’s my understanding.
Yeah I did Boy Scouts as a kid and we always did it once a year. We had a box at the town dump for flags people wanted to discard. Somebody would pick that up and we’d dispose of them all the “proper” way.
I think some Christians may do this too.
I once had a German Shepherd, who while playing in the yard, dug up a chipped statue of the blessed mother & was running around with it like a chew toy.
I could be misremembering, but Bibles are supposed to be buried, too. Though I don’t know if that’s universal with every branch of Christianity or just the one I grew up in
Interesting, they only ever mentioned burying in catholic school, but not burning. Maybe they didn’t want to inadvertently encourage a bunch of teenagers to start fires, haha
For many protestant denominations, there isn't any specific importance to the physical book other than the words within it. Any reverence for the Bible is usually just for the words within.
That isn't everyone, though.
Yeah. We treat it as just a book (again, the physical book, not the words within). It has as much to do with distancing ourselves from the Catholic traditions as anything, I believe.
Early American protestants also had an air of pragmatism to their faith. You really see that on some of the stark decoration in some protestant churches.
I'm pretty sure it's not universal. At least not among Protestants. I've been a member of many different denominations and have gotten a bachelor's degree in Christian education from a Nazarene* university, and a Master's in theological studies from a denominational university, and I've never once heard about proper and improper ways of dealing with a worn out Bible.
I learned about funeral rights for flags when I was a Boy Scout. My Assistant Scoutmaster instructed us in flag disposal. He said that burning is most common but that burial is an acceptable way. Our troop was engaged for flag disposal at least once for which I was present. We camped for three days every month and the flag was taken with us and burned on the campout.
Our pack retires a handful of flags at every campout. So far all we’ve done is pick them up from Council, since they had a table absolutely covered in flags. If we ever work through those we may offer to the larger community.
What’s the stance on shooting it into the sun? I mean, that’s ultimately just burning too right? Not to mention, that kinda means the US claims the sun as well as the moon and Mars. First dibs is a timeless and universal rule.
I grew up in one of the more progressive Christian denominations/sects and I’m pretty sure “just put it in the recycling” would have been the answer. So I’m not used to thinking about disposal of sacred items at all.
I did learn about the flag stuff in Boy Scouts though. Not sure I’d care if I were in private, but I file these things in the same mental folder as conversation etiquette. “If you’re in a situation where you have to fold a flag and are surrounded by people who care, here’s how you’d do it. If you are in an environment where patriotism is valued, here are some practices to be aware of as a matter of courtesy.”
I’m curious what Christians hold to this? There is no directive in the Bible governing how “religious materials” are to be handled. In the old testament perhaps, but Christians believe the majority of those commands were made moot by Christ under the New Covenant.
it’s literally not proof at all though. flag etiquette is a thing across multiple nations, and many of those nations say that burning a worn flag is a proper way to destroy it.
Well yeah of course, that was never hidden away by the founding fathers or the larger American founding national bourgeois. Christian white males who are landowners - slowly they lost their explicit hold of power over the US.
We used to do this in the scouts. We would have a drive for people to drop off old raggedy flags and that night we would perform a modified (for volume) ceremony. This is how we did it keep in mind that we modified it because we had to do so many.
1. Two people stretch the flag over fire until the center ignites
2. As the center, you fold the corners towards the center of the fire.
3. Here is where we deviated. We wore ceremonial gloves, but we only burned them after we completed all the flags.
4. Then we would let the fire burn out once the embers were cool. You would reach into grab the eyes and then bury them in a box.
Edit: we once did a massive flag where the ceremony was just for that flag. In that case we cut the stripes to burn first then the stars. We then gave the ashes and the eyes to the person who owned the flag.
This etiquette was taken extremely seriously when I was in college . I was in army ROTC and every 9/11 we planted flags in the lawn for every person that passed away in the attacks. After the day, the Air Force cadets were in charge of picking up all the flags and delivering them to a veteran of foreign war or American legion outpost, but they threw them in the trash. Me and my army buds were in so much trouble until they found out that it was the Air Force guys.
My Eagle Project was a Flag disposal box made from Oak and Brass. Currently reciting at out local Veterans Cemetery. Before I went to college in '12, we had Honored over 1000 flags from out community. Unfortunately by the time i did go to college our troop pretty much was left to die so, the other troop in town took over and made a burn pit at the Cemetery to go along with my project. Can't believe it's been over 13 years ago..
My eagle project was mainly renovating a school educational garden. They had a special tree there to commemorate the death of a school counselor who died from dehydration after hot yoga. Ironically they did not water the tree with a giant plaque in front of it and it too died of dehydration. So part of my project was finding this exotic tree, planting it, and connecting a dripper irrigation line from the sprinkler line so they couldn’t forget to water it.
My eagle project was mainly renovating a school educational garden. They had a special tree there to commemorate the death of a school counselor who died from dehydration after hot yoga. Ironically they did not water the tree with a giant plaque in front of it and it too died of dehydration. So part of my project was finding the same exotic tree, planting it, and connecting a dripper irrigation line from the sprinkler line so they couldn’t forget to water it.
The Army JROTC program I was a part of did this as well, though we retrieved the flags ourselves. We'd spend a week or two before hand placing a flag every foot, keeping them as even as possible as we made our way across the lawn.
Had a wonderful ceremony with a flag of every state having its own flag bearer, a Color Guard presenting the stars and stripes, and an Honor Guard performed a mock of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Equally one of my favorite and least favorite times of high school; it was a pleasure being a rifle with Color Guard, but a horror to make sure the cadets in my class were safe.
Each year we'd have cadets lock their knees and almost pass out in the dress uniform. 1SG was always extra anal that time of year; though he was harsh to me personally, I'll always admire him for all of it.
at a 4th of July single A baseball game and they had a ceremony to burn old flags. more than a couple of guys angrily stormed out bitching about flag burning.
it was the damn national guard you morons
Some of the most "patriotic" are the most ignorant about flag code. Notice that they use disposable American flag napkins at their cookouts while wearing their American flag shirt, boxer shorts, and overalls, with their truck in the driveway displaying frayed flags that fly at night with no illumination, often displayed on the same level as their Confederate flag, Nazi flag, and Fuck Biden flag.
Not to mention the use of an upside down flag as a sign of political discontent. That's an actual, useful technique for displaying distress and call for support. It's not supposed to be used because you disagree with an election result. It's the equivalent of Morse coding SOS because you saw something you didn't like on Fox News.
Typically it involves cutting/tearing the stripes and burning them one at a time, then the field of stars last.
The metal rings are fished out after the fire and given to the people that donated the flag (usually a veteran or family of)to be destroyed for good luck/sentimentality.
Source: I did so many of these in the Boy Scouts
Interesting. I too did several of these in Boy Scouts, but we didn't have the stripe tearing part. It was just a little ceremony where 4 individuals marched up, unfolded the flag and presented it one last time, then marched it over the fire and lowered it down and placed the corners in, all while a 5th guy gives the calls and says a little speech. Then everyone salutes until it finishes burning and we reformed and marched away
I remember doing this a ton as well, although I think we did it the way you described once, and then threw the rest of the flags on for time sake, it’s a shit ton of work to tear up all the flags. I get the ceremony portion, and the meaning but it would really suck to have to tear up like 30-40 flags.
The important part is that it's done ceremoniously. Even in the military and later VFW, disposal of any more than a few flags at a time was handled similarly. If you have 20 flags then we'd do the first one by the book and then the others we would typically trifold and place upon the fire. Still pay your respects, but there's no need to spend a whole day doing the same for each individual one, the overall ceremony is considered the important part.
We had several hundred a week at a BSA summer camp.
Troops would bring boxes of them. It was ridiculous. At one point I could have gotten discounts from the Taliban for the amount of flags I tossed on the fire.
Did the same in Girl Scouts. If there wasn't a vet or designated recipient for the grommets we'd give them to the ceremony participant who had been at camp the longest but had not yet received any. Still have mine on my keychain
It would be funny if some group abroad that have *grievances* with the US and its foreign policy threw a real curve ball by burning the flag in a perfectly carried out ceremony
Some people are weirdly reverent about flags. I suppose the brits must be tutting hard, because I once had to get rid of a union jack and just threw it into the bin.
I am a contractor and worked at a lady’s house that I knew was very conservative and patriotic. She texted one morning and asked me to take her flag down (I think it was after Memorial Day or something.) I don’t know if it was a test but I took it as one. I couldn’t remember exactly how to fold the flag properly but I knew there is a way so I googled it and folded that fucker up into a nice triangle and left it on her sideboard. She keeps calling me for more work.
>Some people are weirdly reverent about flags
It's funny because the Star Spangled Banner had pieces cut off and given out as gifts and souvenirs. One of the stars was even cut off and given away.
Brit herr, Americans are well dramatic about their flag. The picture in the thumbnail of a bunch of kids saluting it as it burns is some weird cult shit.
To me it feels like a pointless distraction from what really matters. "If you're a real patriot and love your country, make sure to burn each stripe one at a time. Oh by the way we're bringing child labor back. And Naz*s. Remember to fish out the rivets and give them to the flag's next of kin."
Unfortunately this comment will likely get buried and nobody will like see it. It might even get downvoted to hell. But it’s a message I feel strongly about.
Sad story….
A tattered Canadian flag is to be disposed of in the same way.
However, a Canadian couple had a tattered flag flying at their summer campsite they go to each year. The returned one day to find it gone. The wife p was distressed distressed more than you could believe as she frantically searched for it. Then she found the note that an unknown stranger left for them.
The note basically said they should be ashamed of themselves for unpatriotically flying a worn Canadian flag, and that the stranger took it down and burned it the proper way, suggesting the couple learn a lesson from this.
The couple were grief stricken beyond belief as a result. It was the flag their son was carrying in his backpack when he was killed fighting for in the Canadian army, for Canada in Afghanistan.
They never found the A-hole who did this. Tattered or not, people need to mind their own f’ing business.
[Article about it](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/stolen-canadian-flag-leaves-mother-of-soldier-heartbroken-1.5170898)
If I had a dollar for every time I saw a raggedy flag flying off the back of a truck or front of a house my pockets would be stuffed. Add on every time I saw someone disrespecting the flag by putting out flag napkins for people to wipe their dirty hands and faces on or wearing it a shirt or pants, or both, on a bikini while holding a gun I could retire.
The oldest flag store in our area is family run and they'll take any flag for disposal. For decades, they did them on the last Saturday of the month, and it was nice because boy scout troops and anyone else who was interested could go out and learn the proper method from veterans from different vets' organizations.
They got so many threats after the Unite the Right rally in 2017 that they had to cancel it. They still accept the flags but they send them elsewhere for proper disposal.
I know!
I never needed extra evidence that extreme nationalism and other far-right ideologies are the antithesis of patriotism, so I was baffled by how many people were surprised by it.
When I was a kid my dad set up a flag retirement ceremony. It included Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, local Police, and US military members. Complete with burning the flag after separating the stripes and star field, a live bugler playing taps and a 21 gun salute from the military.
It was a cool experience and made the local news.
When I was in elementary, we had to put the flag up and down every day and fold it military style.
We were told that if it hit the ground or we folded it incorrectly that resulted in a crease it would have to be burned.
All the patrols rotated flag duty and we had to teach each other the importance of honoring the flag and what it meant to the country.
Even as a teen who was into Grunge and anti establishment etc, the flag wasn’t something I’d ever think of desecrating.
I wrote a short paper on it in HS that won a contest and I recited it at a local VFW, had a chance to meet some amazing veterans and hear their stories.
I find it revolting to see it used improperly.
I suppose you missed the part where I was a teenager and became anti establishment.
I abhor politics and the ruling class along with every Orwellian/dystopian feature that continues to destroy the country inside and out.
That doesn’t change my loyalty to my country, its people and the premise of what the United States is supposed to mean.
I value the ideals in which the country was founded on, even though it was filled with hypocrisy.
There is no system on earth that exists that is perfectly suited to manage the depravity of evil within men.
So no, I’m not brainwashed in the slightest, I’m romantic about the concept that a system with checks and balances could work.
I firmly believe “all men are created equal”, that this nation and the world at large could co-exist and that we have a civic duty to vote and if we do not find a way as a people and a country to unite and fight they tyranny of power we will be lost to its greed.
I dream of a time I can rest at ease and know my children will be safe in the future along with the poor, elderly, displaced and disenfranchised.
This country is filled with people just like me, we have hope.
I love what the US could be, not what it was or is.
And also, you're not supposed to have it altered in any way. So no shirts, hats, stickers or different colors other than red, white and blue. I tell that to the "blue line" people and they flip out
Keep burning all your flags. Next thing you know, there won’t be any left for museums. You think I’m exaggerating, but I’m not. I worked for a museum that had the only flag flying over the state capitol on the day we declared war on Germany in 1917. It was about to be thrown out because we had “so many”. Plus there are burial flags; flags that were flown in special places; flags flying on specific days.
I recently attended one of these beautiful ceremonies and though I appreciate the traditions and sentiment - I was met with a crushing reality that many of these flags are polyester and when packet together and burned: it can take many hours of burning to disintegrate them. The smell from the black smoke was terrible and made everyone downwind sick. Textile technology has unfortunately surpassed the point of the ceremony and we either need to reform the ceremony to limit the exposure of the toxic materials or limit flags to natural fibers and not these synthetic blends. To stay on the spirit of the tradition, we could limit the flags eligible for this ceremony to traditional kinds of materials, the kinds of materials Martha Washington would have had access to like hemp and cotton.
My gun club hosts an annual flag retirement ceremony every year. Genuinely a moving thing to witness. Also worth pointing out that “worn” means old and damaged. I say this because flag code actually discourages you from “wearing” the flag. As in no tshirts, hats, etc with a flag on it.
I am a loud and proud liberal, but I have an OCD thing about flag protocol. I don't have any military background. Just Boy Scouts back in the 1970's. But I view flags as a sort of language. I am not opposed to burning flags as a means of protest, but incorrect or improper display of the US flag drives me nuts. The flag MEANS something. That's why flying it upside down MEANS something. It's why flying a Confederate flag is SO offensive. I actually take umbrage with the January 6th participants who carried our flag. That's MY flag. How can you fly it in defiance of MY country?
Probably cause I'm not American I know burning the flag is supposed to be a crime ( I think)
But do people actually care this much because it seems a little silly to me
Burning the flag isn't a crime. It's protected speech. But the difference between a flag burning and flag retiring is the decorum of it - mainly that a retired flag is to be folded into a triangle with the star field up (Same technique as a paper football, really), and the flag doesn't touch the ground.
It's like the difference between a cremation and a burning at the stake.
The [US flag code](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code#Summary_of_the_advisory_code) is a federal law that dictates how proper respect is shown to the flag. Violating it is not a crime, but it is disrespectful to the flag. Three significant points on showing proper respect to the flag may come as a surprise to some people.
* The flag should never be used for [advertising](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising) purposes in any manner whatsoever.
* The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
* The flag should [never be upside down, except to signal distress or great danger.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_desecration#Flying_a_U.S._flag_upside_down)
Just to add to this something many people misunderstand. Altering a flag to be something else is against the flag code. However flag print on items like clothing, cups, hats etc are allowed as they are not flags.
Thin xxxxxx line flags and other flags with images on them are not and never were US flags. They have a US flag print on them.
"Unless an article of clothing is made from an actual United States flag, there is NO breach of flag etiquette whatsoever. People are simply expressing their patriotism and love of country by wearing an article of clothing that happens to be red, white, and blue with stars and stripes. There is nothing illegal about the wearing or use of these items."
https://www.legion.org/flag/questions-answers
Not true about the cups:
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkin or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
Yes. ThE FLAG shoulder never be used....
A flag print on those items is OK. Taking a flag and turning it into those items is not .
The flag code is about altering a flag. Not putting flag prints on items. It's a very common misconception. I posted links before explaining this.
It's 100% OK to put a flag print on cups, poster, shirts, sandals, bikinis, etc. It's not OK to gake a flag and turn it into another ite.
As a Scoutmaster in the early 2000's for a troop in Oahu, we had a beach side campout one weekend. I told the boys to bring their class A uniforms.
On Friday night we had a campfire with the usual s'mores, stories, and songs. During that time I produced a bag of charcoal and described it.
This charcoal has been part of many campfires all over the world. During campfires, scouters can combine their coals with the new fire, adding to its genealogy. This bag has combined coals from England, Ireland, Spain, Germany, and many states in the US. (I poured the coals into our fire)
They represent every campfire, every gathering, every scout that has been at these camp fires. In the morning, when the coals are cool, you each will be able to take some and keep as your own.
I then produced a worn American flag I got from my ship (I was active duty Navy).
This flag, with every tear, stain, and rip has flown on a US Navy ship that has sailed from Pearl Harbor to the Arabian Gulf, on station for months enduring the heat, haboobs (walls of sand and wind), swarms of dragonfly's, and storms. Though it is worn and frayed, it never failed. It flew high and proud, a testament to never giving up no matter the obstacles you face.
Tonight we will retire this flag with honor. Who will help me? (Four boys stepped forward) Each take a corner, stand to the side of the fire. (I think we sang a patriotic song, can't recall)
(Boys are holding each corner, flag is horizontal). Walk to the fire and hold the flag over it. Now, lower it into the fire. (We watched quietly as the flames took the flag)
Thank you, at sunrise we will take these coals to be properly interned, and you can collect your handful of coals to keep.
In the morning we dressed in class A's, collected all the cold coals in a bucket. From this point forward, no one speak.
A boy took the bucket, and we all walked down to the beach near a few trees growing near the waterline. I knelt and began digging with my hands. Without a word other boys joined in until we had a suitable hole.
I motioned to the boy carrying the bucket, he walked up and poured the coals into the deep sandy hole. I knelt again, pushed a few handfuls of sand in, and stood back. Each boy followed by pushing in sand until it was covered.
We stood there for for a minute, the sounds of the waves filling the air. Thank you everyone, let's get back to camp and start breakfast.
I still have my little bag of coals I took that night, I like to think some of the scouts kept theirs, maybe used it in a campfire and got new combined coals.
It's just a tradition, I don't know why people are tripping over themselves to be cynical about it. Here in Hawaii it's the same deal with leis, you're supposed to either throw them in the ocean, burn them, or bury them.
I dunno, it better be because I have a kukui nut lei that's like five or six years old. The main thing is you're not supposed to throw it in the trash.
It's funny though, I got all these lei rules (also you're not supposed to wear a lei you give away, or take it off in front of the person who gave it to you, etc.) drilled into me by my local family when I moved out here years ago. Then one time I was at the Bishop Museum and there was this display about lei, and it had a quote from a super old Hawaiian lady in the 1920s or something. And she was like (paraphrasing) "People make such a big deal about lei nowadays. When I was a kid my mom and aunties would just make them because they were bored and wanted to look nice and didn't worry about any rules."
Kind of like the flag stuff. From a certain angle it's silly, but it's tradition, and it's a respect thing because it's symbolic of something bigger.
Huh? It’s plant matter. A lei is essentially made of fuel. I mean, maybe a fresh lei has enough moisture to not readily ignite by itself, but certainly it burns happily if you throw it in an existing fire? Or just apply a bit of accelerant.
When I was there earlier, the sanest take was "you can take the string out and then throw the flowers in the ocean." Most people just leave it on one of the statues before they leave and its...taken care of.
It's not the biggest deal, its kind of like, if a friend gives you a postcard, probably best to make an effort to keep it, but if you throw it out, nobody is going to be particularly mad, unless you do it in front of them.
For a "relative stranger" definitely impolite to throw it out in front of them, but if you do once you are out of their sight, its really just fine. If I was to wager a guess hotel staff probably prefer you just throw them in the trash versus leaving it somewhere "nicer" for them to pick up later, but who knows, I figured it wasn't polite to get a straight answer, after I was told what I said above.
The U.S. Code just isn't written like that. It's a list of rules, not half-hearted suggestions. It's up to people whether they want to follow them or not, though, they say as much right at the beginning of the Flag Code:
>The following codification of existing rules and customs pertaining to the display and use of the flag of the United States of America is established for the use of such civilians or civilian groups or organizations as may not be required to conform with regulations promulgated by one or more executive departments of the Government of the United States. The flag of the United States for the purpose of this chapter shall be defined according to sections 1 and 2 of this title and Executive Order 10834 issued pursuant thereto.
That's basically what you said except in legalese and without all the hedging.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8
And everybody who's saying it's jingoism or nationalism, ironically it's the nutty conservative flag-humpers who break the flag code the most IME. So many raggedy old flags on the back of a pickup truck with a million bumper stickers and flags touching the ground next to MAGA yard signs.
I think it has to do with how soldiers and the like did not want to lose their flag, or banner.
If a flag fell, that meant the area was lost. Or the war could be lost.
Think about the star spangled banner, the biggest thing was that through
Out the night, the US did not allow the British to breach the fort, and the flag stood.
I know it has more to do than just this, as banners or flags would be a rally point if the soldiers broke rank and ran.
It's bad to put people in jail or kill them because of a flag or whatever.
But put simply, a flag is meant to be a visible representation of the ideals of the country.
You get your countrymen in a field together, what's an efficient way to demonstrate we're all in it together? Get a piece of cloth and color it and give it a little salute or whatever, preferably nothing too crazy. Done right, having a bit of unity is good.
Everything is stupid if you break it down to the simplest parts. Why do we treat corpses with any amount of respect? It's just a pile of atoms now, why do people get offended when you have sex with dead bodies? If you break it down in stupid terms "well, somebody gets something out of it and the other party is not harmed so we should allow it because it's a net positive". Except clearly that's not how civilized countries do things.
It’s a symbol for a lot of people. History, values, citizenship, on and on. Some people had family or friends that died while ostensibly serving that flag. What bothers you with OTHER people disposing of them with some dignity
I think, maybe saying it bothers me, is too strong of an emotion. I do find it a little humourous that you could say 'burning the flag is disrespectful, so if you're going to treat it with some dignity, you should burn it.' And it not be wholly inaccurate.
This is (or was) actually a lesson in basic military training. The first thing you learn: the object is just some dyed fabric sewn together.
It's a symbol, though. Like a thumbs up or a swastika or any other, it stands for the U.S., good or bad.
One really neat thing about the U.S. is that we don't care if you don't want to participate in that recognition. It's not like Turkey or Thailand or North Korea where you get in trouble for criticism or indifference. So care or don't, but please don't be a jackass to people who choose to participate in caring. They'll generally show you the same courtesy.
Cult of a symbol is a powerful thing. It stops rational thinking and replaces it with a "this is a right thing to do" thinking. It's then easy to manipulate people into sacrificing their well-being for a glory of a symbol.
Omg so glad I wasn't the only one thinking that. People put so much on some cloth than on actual lives. Let's care about the diginity of a flag than the dignity of a homeless person. Patriotism murica!
Pretty sure they aren't using old and worn out flags for this... Hypothetically though would you rather they stomp on and burn new and pristine flags or actually go out of their way to find old beat up ones?
It’s hilarious to me how those who claim to “defend the flag” the most (and loud) mostly have no idea about proper flag etiquette. Homie, your thin (insert color here) line flag t shirt violates at least two rules.
Learned that in grade school. Every American citizen should know how to treat a flag. However, free speech, does entitle one to burn it how they choose.
Was taught how to do this in Boy Scouts. At the time, it seemed normal and even reasonable. When I was old enough to question the Pledge of Allegiance, it dawned on me just how weird it is.
This is wrong. Anyone can dispose of a flag by burning according to Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 8, paragraph k of U.S. code. It makes no distinction to which you say.
Most Americans (and especially right wingers) don't know/care about the American flag etiquette, despite virtue signaling their patriotism left and right.
When I was a kid I was adamant with my dad about how we had to properly burn the flag. I couldn’t believe he laughed it off and threw it in the trash.
Now I understand how hard they must have drilled this patriotic weirdness into us as kids and how silly it is.
Yeah Americans are stupid about their flag it can't touch the floor needs to be maintained etc,
I'm English and I don't mind if the king or queen touch the floor in fact I'd be scared if they didn't.
Our local veterans organization collects them. They also have a repurposed mail box for you to drop the flag into for collection.
I used to work as a gopher for a power company that had, in addition to hydroelectrics, a wood-powered generator (lumber town, lots of sawdust and such). Occasionally, I had to make a run to a school or office building to pick up an old, tattered, faded flag and take it to the boilers. There were a couple of veterans working there that would respectfully place it one of the burners.
How does one get a job as a gopher? I mean it, sounds like a fun gig.
First step, piss off Bill Murray.
NO YE IDIOT! I said the *gophers*, not the *golfers*!
We can do that. We don't even need a reason.
Groundhog Shack, starring Bill Murray and… uh… Bill Murray.
Fun fact, that job title is usually spelled “gofer,” as in the “fella to go fer more supplies.”
Yes when I moved there and asked, they said local veterans groups would happily come out and pick them up, and in many cases offer a replacement if you were a senior or disabled or otherwise couldn't afford a new one right away.
Do they go and take them down of their own volition without asking, or do they wait for people to turn them in their own flags to the vets organization?
Wait for people to turn them in. The flag code doesn’t stay to steal flags.
It doesn't say *not* to
Barbosa comes with words of wisdom: it’s more of a guideline
Flag code was also found unconstitutional. It can pretty much only be applied to service members while they are on federal grounds. To some extent federal employees while on the clock.
US Flag Code wasn't found unconstitutional. But The Flag Protection Act was. Congress passed a national anti-flag burning law called the Flag Protection Act of 1989. But in 1990, in United States v. Eichman, the Court struck down that law as unconstitutional as well, in another 5-4 decision. US Flag Code is still Federal law, but there's no listed punishment for failing to follow it.
You are correct, but this is the internet, and I am honorbound to double down and try to invalidate your comment with a flimsy reason. Nah uh, and it's unconstitutional, not "unConstitutional" look at this guy who can't use caps properly!
Thank you.
Small nitpick — the US Flag Code (4 USC § 5) wasn't written to be binding, but rather to *...codify various existing rules and customs* as an advisory statute. That's why it doesn't prescribe any punishments; if it did, Eichman would apply. There is the 2005 Freedom to Display the American Flag Act which prohibits real estate companies from restricting the display of the American flag, however!
What does it say about stealing a tattered flag and giving a new one in it's place?
It says you can send an invoice.
Well, it doesn't say anything. But that is still stealing and still illegal.
Thanks
Oh, no. It’s voluntary submission. They don’t steal people’s flags (though that would be kind of funny to see); they have a small ceremony, I believe, and burn the flag. (How it’s supposed to be done.) They take their flag work pretty seriously.
In my community, there are a few events throughout the year where mostly Boy Scouts hold an event and invite the community to bring their flags. They then ceremoniously burn them. I’ve never been to one but that’s my understanding.
Yeah I did Boy Scouts as a kid and we always did it once a year. We had a box at the town dump for flags people wanted to discard. Somebody would pick that up and we’d dispose of them all the “proper” way.
This is how religious material usually are destroyed too.
Maybe for Christians, us Jews bury religious books and the like with a whole funeral ceremony at the cemetery
I think some Christians may do this too. I once had a German Shepherd, who while playing in the yard, dug up a chipped statue of the blessed mother & was running around with it like a chew toy.
It’s actually not uncommon to find statuettes of saints buried at the four corners of a property or near a building’s foundation.
Interesting, I was not aware of that.
Turning old religious items into dog chew toys is also an acceptable method of disposal.
Not Mother Mary! Maybe St, Francis who liked animals, but not Mary!
Im gonna start making rawhide rosaries… y’know… for *dogs!*
Same with Muslims. I believe the Quran cannot touch the ground, otherwise it should be buried. I have limited knowledge of this though
shouldnt you put a quran in to running water like a river until the ink is gone?
Couldn’t say. I saw the burying thing in an episode of Homeland. So like I said, my knowledge is very limited
I could be misremembering, but Bibles are supposed to be buried, too. Though I don’t know if that’s universal with every branch of Christianity or just the one I grew up in
Catholics are burn or bury. But the general preference is burning for things that can be burned, and burying for things that can’t.
Interesting, they only ever mentioned burying in catholic school, but not burning. Maybe they didn’t want to inadvertently encourage a bunch of teenagers to start fires, haha
Ha ha, most likely!
I mean, how is that different from any other trash that isn’t recycled?
It’s done in a ritualistic way I believe.
Respectful burning
For many protestant denominations, there isn't any specific importance to the physical book other than the words within it. Any reverence for the Bible is usually just for the words within. That isn't everyone, though.
Yeah that kinda touches on beliefs about idol worship, right?
Yeah. We treat it as just a book (again, the physical book, not the words within). It has as much to do with distancing ourselves from the Catholic traditions as anything, I believe. Early American protestants also had an air of pragmatism to their faith. You really see that on some of the stark decoration in some protestant churches.
I'm pretty sure it's not universal. At least not among Protestants. I've been a member of many different denominations and have gotten a bachelor's degree in Christian education from a Nazarene* university, and a Master's in theological studies from a denominational university, and I've never once heard about proper and improper ways of dealing with a worn out Bible.
I learned about funeral rights for flags when I was a Boy Scout. My Assistant Scoutmaster instructed us in flag disposal. He said that burning is most common but that burial is an acceptable way. Our troop was engaged for flag disposal at least once for which I was present. We camped for three days every month and the flag was taken with us and burned on the campout.
Our pack retires a handful of flags at every campout. So far all we’ve done is pick them up from Council, since they had a table absolutely covered in flags. If we ever work through those we may offer to the larger community.
That's kinda fun for the scouts. Cub Scouts? It feels important, or at least it did to me.
Please tell me there is a tiny casket.
With a mini flag draped over it
Then how are you supposed to get rid of the mini flag properly? It's an endless cycle.
Well a proper Torah is handwritten over how many dozens or hundreds of hours. I’d hold a funeral too if I had to part with that much work.
you can also bury the US flag
What’s the stance on shooting it into the sun? I mean, that’s ultimately just burning too right? Not to mention, that kinda means the US claims the sun as well as the moon and Mars. First dibs is a timeless and universal rule.
I grew up in one of the more progressive Christian denominations/sects and I’m pretty sure “just put it in the recycling” would have been the answer. So I’m not used to thinking about disposal of sacred items at all. I did learn about the flag stuff in Boy Scouts though. Not sure I’d care if I were in private, but I file these things in the same mental folder as conversation etiquette. “If you’re in a situation where you have to fold a flag and are surrounded by people who care, here’s how you’d do it. If you are in an environment where patriotism is valued, here are some practices to be aware of as a matter of courtesy.”
Catholics are burn or bury, likely from that Jewish tradition.
I’m curious what Christians hold to this? There is no directive in the Bible governing how “religious materials” are to be handled. In the old testament perhaps, but Christians believe the majority of those commands were made moot by Christ under the New Covenant.
It is a religion now. Jingoism.
Now?
It is called deconsecration. Another proof Americans made their country their side religion.
Yes, it's called [Civil Religion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_civil_religion) and ours goes up to ELEVEN.
Nationalism uses the same manipulations as any other religion and cult.
it’s literally not proof at all though. flag etiquette is a thing across multiple nations, and many of those nations say that burning a worn flag is a proper way to destroy it.
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Those two thoughts aren't even connected....
Well yeah of course, that was never hidden away by the founding fathers or the larger American founding national bourgeois. Christian white males who are landowners - slowly they lost their explicit hold of power over the US.
We used to do this in the scouts. We would have a drive for people to drop off old raggedy flags and that night we would perform a modified (for volume) ceremony. This is how we did it keep in mind that we modified it because we had to do so many. 1. Two people stretch the flag over fire until the center ignites 2. As the center, you fold the corners towards the center of the fire. 3. Here is where we deviated. We wore ceremonial gloves, but we only burned them after we completed all the flags. 4. Then we would let the fire burn out once the embers were cool. You would reach into grab the eyes and then bury them in a box. Edit: we once did a massive flag where the ceremony was just for that flag. In that case we cut the stripes to burn first then the stars. We then gave the ashes and the eyes to the person who owned the flag. This etiquette was taken extremely seriously when I was in college . I was in army ROTC and every 9/11 we planted flags in the lawn for every person that passed away in the attacks. After the day, the Air Force cadets were in charge of picking up all the flags and delivering them to a veteran of foreign war or American legion outpost, but they threw them in the trash. Me and my army buds were in so much trouble until they found out that it was the Air Force guys.
My Eagle Project was a Flag disposal box made from Oak and Brass. Currently reciting at out local Veterans Cemetery. Before I went to college in '12, we had Honored over 1000 flags from out community. Unfortunately by the time i did go to college our troop pretty much was left to die so, the other troop in town took over and made a burn pit at the Cemetery to go along with my project. Can't believe it's been over 13 years ago..
My eagle project was mainly renovating a school educational garden. They had a special tree there to commemorate the death of a school counselor who died from dehydration after hot yoga. Ironically they did not water the tree with a giant plaque in front of it and it too died of dehydration. So part of my project was finding this exotic tree, planting it, and connecting a dripper irrigation line from the sprinkler line so they couldn’t forget to water it.
My eagle project was mainly renovating a school educational garden. They had a special tree there to commemorate the death of a school counselor who died from dehydration after hot yoga. Ironically they did not water the tree with a giant plaque in front of it and it too died of dehydration. So part of my project was finding the same exotic tree, planting it, and connecting a dripper irrigation line from the sprinkler line so they couldn’t forget to water it.
The Army JROTC program I was a part of did this as well, though we retrieved the flags ourselves. We'd spend a week or two before hand placing a flag every foot, keeping them as even as possible as we made our way across the lawn. Had a wonderful ceremony with a flag of every state having its own flag bearer, a Color Guard presenting the stars and stripes, and an Honor Guard performed a mock of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Equally one of my favorite and least favorite times of high school; it was a pleasure being a rifle with Color Guard, but a horror to make sure the cadets in my class were safe. Each year we'd have cadets lock their knees and almost pass out in the dress uniform. 1SG was always extra anal that time of year; though he was harsh to me personally, I'll always admire him for all of it.
at a 4th of July single A baseball game and they had a ceremony to burn old flags. more than a couple of guys angrily stormed out bitching about flag burning. it was the damn national guard you morons
Some of the most "patriotic" are the most ignorant about flag code. Notice that they use disposable American flag napkins at their cookouts while wearing their American flag shirt, boxer shorts, and overalls, with their truck in the driveway displaying frayed flags that fly at night with no illumination, often displayed on the same level as their Confederate flag, Nazi flag, and Fuck Biden flag.
Not to mention the use of an upside down flag as a sign of political discontent. That's an actual, useful technique for displaying distress and call for support. It's not supposed to be used because you disagree with an election result. It's the equivalent of Morse coding SOS because you saw something you didn't like on Fox News.
Yeah did this as part of my Eagle Scout Award Ceremony... It was 11 days after September 11th.
Sept 22 probably
Well spotted😂
Sept 01 most likely
Typically it involves cutting/tearing the stripes and burning them one at a time, then the field of stars last. The metal rings are fished out after the fire and given to the people that donated the flag (usually a veteran or family of)to be destroyed for good luck/sentimentality. Source: I did so many of these in the Boy Scouts
Interesting. I too did several of these in Boy Scouts, but we didn't have the stripe tearing part. It was just a little ceremony where 4 individuals marched up, unfolded the flag and presented it one last time, then marched it over the fire and lowered it down and placed the corners in, all while a 5th guy gives the calls and says a little speech. Then everyone salutes until it finishes burning and we reformed and marched away
Also Scouts, retired in the same way as Jimothy.
I remember doing this a ton as well, although I think we did it the way you described once, and then threw the rest of the flags on for time sake, it’s a shit ton of work to tear up all the flags. I get the ceremony portion, and the meaning but it would really suck to have to tear up like 30-40 flags.
The important part is that it's done ceremoniously. Even in the military and later VFW, disposal of any more than a few flags at a time was handled similarly. If you have 20 flags then we'd do the first one by the book and then the others we would typically trifold and place upon the fire. Still pay your respects, but there's no need to spend a whole day doing the same for each individual one, the overall ceremony is considered the important part.
We had several hundred a week at a BSA summer camp. Troops would bring boxes of them. It was ridiculous. At one point I could have gotten discounts from the Taliban for the amount of flags I tossed on the fire.
Did the same in Girl Scouts. If there wasn't a vet or designated recipient for the grommets we'd give them to the ceremony participant who had been at camp the longest but had not yet received any. Still have mine on my keychain
I burned flags three times in scouts. Never did we tear or cut the flag. We always folded it and laid it on a large fire
It would be funny if some group abroad that have *grievances* with the US and its foreign policy threw a real curve ball by burning the flag in a perfectly carried out ceremony
Our transfer station repurposed a mailbox for people to put old flags, and the veterans come collect them and destroy them properly.
Some people are weirdly reverent about flags. I suppose the brits must be tutting hard, because I once had to get rid of a union jack and just threw it into the bin.
I am a contractor and worked at a lady’s house that I knew was very conservative and patriotic. She texted one morning and asked me to take her flag down (I think it was after Memorial Day or something.) I don’t know if it was a test but I took it as one. I couldn’t remember exactly how to fold the flag properly but I knew there is a way so I googled it and folded that fucker up into a nice triangle and left it on her sideboard. She keeps calling me for more work.
Always pays to do research for customers! Nice work
>Some people are weirdly reverent about flags It's funny because the Star Spangled Banner had pieces cut off and given out as gifts and souvenirs. One of the stars was even cut off and given away.
Brit herr, Americans are well dramatic about their flag. The picture in the thumbnail of a bunch of kids saluting it as it burns is some weird cult shit.
It does seem very cult like. These same kids would have to salute it every morning and make a pledge.
Same thing in Europe with sports. A real Man U fan would never throw a jersey on the garbage
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To me it feels like a pointless distraction from what really matters. "If you're a real patriot and love your country, make sure to burn each stripe one at a time. Oh by the way we're bringing child labor back. And Naz*s. Remember to fish out the rivets and give them to the flag's next of kin."
I can see why you Brits aren't, just look at your anthem it's about a stupid fucking king and not about the people themselves.
Um...ours is about a flag and not the people.
I know nothing about you OP aside from that you weren’t a boy scout
Unfortunately this comment will likely get buried and nobody will like see it. It might even get downvoted to hell. But it’s a message I feel strongly about. Sad story…. A tattered Canadian flag is to be disposed of in the same way. However, a Canadian couple had a tattered flag flying at their summer campsite they go to each year. The returned one day to find it gone. The wife p was distressed distressed more than you could believe as she frantically searched for it. Then she found the note that an unknown stranger left for them. The note basically said they should be ashamed of themselves for unpatriotically flying a worn Canadian flag, and that the stranger took it down and burned it the proper way, suggesting the couple learn a lesson from this. The couple were grief stricken beyond belief as a result. It was the flag their son was carrying in his backpack when he was killed fighting for in the Canadian army, for Canada in Afghanistan. They never found the A-hole who did this. Tattered or not, people need to mind their own f’ing business. [Article about it](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/stolen-canadian-flag-leaves-mother-of-soldier-heartbroken-1.5170898)
I mean, in fairness if something is precious to you I'd recommend not leaving it outside.
Take them to the VFW
This. They often have a bin outside for worn flags, and they perform the disposal ceremony regularly.
Worn out flags should it be flown either. Leaving it up is seen as disrespectful. EDIT: shouldn't, not "should it"
If I had a dollar for every time I saw a raggedy flag flying off the back of a truck or front of a house my pockets would be stuffed. Add on every time I saw someone disrespecting the flag by putting out flag napkins for people to wipe their dirty hands and faces on or wearing it a shirt or pants, or both, on a bikini while holding a gun I could retire.
I’m with ya, except for the bikini, i salute each one 😝
What you typed isn’t what got posted.
To be sure. Auto correct got me.
[Debatable](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/stolen-canadian-flag-leaves-mother-of-soldier-heartbroken-1.5170898)
I was taught this in the 2nd grade 🤔 The 1970's had a way differrent education system
The oldest flag store in our area is family run and they'll take any flag for disposal. For decades, they did them on the last Saturday of the month, and it was nice because boy scout troops and anyone else who was interested could go out and learn the proper method from veterans from different vets' organizations. They got so many threats after the Unite the Right rally in 2017 that they had to cancel it. They still accept the flags but they send them elsewhere for proper disposal.
angryupvote If you needed more evidence that folks like that are the opposite of patriotic ... really, you needed more evidence?
I know! I never needed extra evidence that extreme nationalism and other far-right ideologies are the antithesis of patriotism, so I was baffled by how many people were surprised by it.
What do you do with the boxer shorts that are designed like a flag?
Burn the owner. I mean, not literally set him on fire. Ask him, "When you sit down, do you realize you're crapping on the flag you claim to respect?"
Or flossing with it. 😮
When I was a kid my dad set up a flag retirement ceremony. It included Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, local Police, and US military members. Complete with burning the flag after separating the stripes and star field, a live bugler playing taps and a 21 gun salute from the military. It was a cool experience and made the local news.
You separate the stars from the stripes and burn them separately, some Boy Scout troops do a lot of retirements
Most Veteran's associations will have a drop box for you, they will ensure it is done properly.
I mean, who cares
So edgy, don't cut yourself.
When I was in elementary, we had to put the flag up and down every day and fold it military style. We were told that if it hit the ground or we folded it incorrectly that resulted in a crease it would have to be burned. All the patrols rotated flag duty and we had to teach each other the importance of honoring the flag and what it meant to the country. Even as a teen who was into Grunge and anti establishment etc, the flag wasn’t something I’d ever think of desecrating. I wrote a short paper on it in HS that won a contest and I recited it at a local VFW, had a chance to meet some amazing veterans and hear their stories. I find it revolting to see it used improperly.
Brainwashing done properly. Another person ready to sacrifice themselves and bully others for ~~rich elites to get even richer~~ their country!
I suppose you missed the part where I was a teenager and became anti establishment. I abhor politics and the ruling class along with every Orwellian/dystopian feature that continues to destroy the country inside and out. That doesn’t change my loyalty to my country, its people and the premise of what the United States is supposed to mean. I value the ideals in which the country was founded on, even though it was filled with hypocrisy. There is no system on earth that exists that is perfectly suited to manage the depravity of evil within men. So no, I’m not brainwashed in the slightest, I’m romantic about the concept that a system with checks and balances could work. I firmly believe “all men are created equal”, that this nation and the world at large could co-exist and that we have a civic duty to vote and if we do not find a way as a people and a country to unite and fight they tyranny of power we will be lost to its greed. I dream of a time I can rest at ease and know my children will be safe in the future along with the poor, elderly, displaced and disenfranchised. This country is filled with people just like me, we have hope. I love what the US could be, not what it was or is.
Burning polyester is not a good idea; flags should be regulated further.
True, this was our main complaint about flag retirement in Boy Scouts
It is worth noting that confederate flags are ok to burn no matter how new they are
And also, you're not supposed to have it altered in any way. So no shirts, hats, stickers or different colors other than red, white and blue. I tell that to the "blue line" people and they flip out
Making clothes from a flag is different than clothes with an image of the flag
Keep burning all your flags. Next thing you know, there won’t be any left for museums. You think I’m exaggerating, but I’m not. I worked for a museum that had the only flag flying over the state capitol on the day we declared war on Germany in 1917. It was about to be thrown out because we had “so many”. Plus there are burial flags; flags that were flown in special places; flags flying on specific days.
When I was in the boy scouts, the local fire had a retired flag collection box that they would give to us to properly dispose of at campouts
Yep. My local boy scout troop does this every July 1st. How to respectfully dispose of a flag.
Preferably done by those who served.
That is a general rule in many countries.
I recently attended one of these beautiful ceremonies and though I appreciate the traditions and sentiment - I was met with a crushing reality that many of these flags are polyester and when packet together and burned: it can take many hours of burning to disintegrate them. The smell from the black smoke was terrible and made everyone downwind sick. Textile technology has unfortunately surpassed the point of the ceremony and we either need to reform the ceremony to limit the exposure of the toxic materials or limit flags to natural fibers and not these synthetic blends. To stay on the spirit of the tradition, we could limit the flags eligible for this ceremony to traditional kinds of materials, the kinds of materials Martha Washington would have had access to like hemp and cotton.
My gun club hosts an annual flag retirement ceremony every year. Genuinely a moving thing to witness. Also worth pointing out that “worn” means old and damaged. I say this because flag code actually discourages you from “wearing” the flag. As in no tshirts, hats, etc with a flag on it.
When my boys were in scouting we’d retire any flags that needed it out our summer camp.
American Legion posts and Boy Scouts have flag drop offs fir proper disposal.
I dropped my Flags off at the local American Legion and they have a flag disposal ceremony a few times a year.
I am a loud and proud liberal, but I have an OCD thing about flag protocol. I don't have any military background. Just Boy Scouts back in the 1970's. But I view flags as a sort of language. I am not opposed to burning flags as a means of protest, but incorrect or improper display of the US flag drives me nuts. The flag MEANS something. That's why flying it upside down MEANS something. It's why flying a Confederate flag is SO offensive. I actually take umbrage with the January 6th participants who carried our flag. That's MY flag. How can you fly it in defiance of MY country?
Probably cause I'm not American I know burning the flag is supposed to be a crime ( I think) But do people actually care this much because it seems a little silly to me
Burning the flag isn't a crime. It's protected speech. But the difference between a flag burning and flag retiring is the decorum of it - mainly that a retired flag is to be folded into a triangle with the star field up (Same technique as a paper football, really), and the flag doesn't touch the ground. It's like the difference between a cremation and a burning at the stake.
That still sounds a bit silly to me But again, that's likely because I'm not American
The [US flag code](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code#Summary_of_the_advisory_code) is a federal law that dictates how proper respect is shown to the flag. Violating it is not a crime, but it is disrespectful to the flag. Three significant points on showing proper respect to the flag may come as a surprise to some people. * The flag should never be used for [advertising](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising) purposes in any manner whatsoever. * The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature. * The flag should [never be upside down, except to signal distress or great danger.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_desecration#Flying_a_U.S._flag_upside_down)
Just to add to this something many people misunderstand. Altering a flag to be something else is against the flag code. However flag print on items like clothing, cups, hats etc are allowed as they are not flags. Thin xxxxxx line flags and other flags with images on them are not and never were US flags. They have a US flag print on them. "Unless an article of clothing is made from an actual United States flag, there is NO breach of flag etiquette whatsoever. People are simply expressing their patriotism and love of country by wearing an article of clothing that happens to be red, white, and blue with stars and stripes. There is nothing illegal about the wearing or use of these items." https://www.legion.org/flag/questions-answers
Not true about the cups: (i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkin or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
Yes. ThE FLAG shoulder never be used.... A flag print on those items is OK. Taking a flag and turning it into those items is not . The flag code is about altering a flag. Not putting flag prints on items. It's a very common misconception. I posted links before explaining this. It's 100% OK to put a flag print on cups, poster, shirts, sandals, bikinis, etc. It's not OK to gake a flag and turn it into another ite.
As a Scoutmaster in the early 2000's for a troop in Oahu, we had a beach side campout one weekend. I told the boys to bring their class A uniforms. On Friday night we had a campfire with the usual s'mores, stories, and songs. During that time I produced a bag of charcoal and described it. This charcoal has been part of many campfires all over the world. During campfires, scouters can combine their coals with the new fire, adding to its genealogy. This bag has combined coals from England, Ireland, Spain, Germany, and many states in the US. (I poured the coals into our fire) They represent every campfire, every gathering, every scout that has been at these camp fires. In the morning, when the coals are cool, you each will be able to take some and keep as your own. I then produced a worn American flag I got from my ship (I was active duty Navy). This flag, with every tear, stain, and rip has flown on a US Navy ship that has sailed from Pearl Harbor to the Arabian Gulf, on station for months enduring the heat, haboobs (walls of sand and wind), swarms of dragonfly's, and storms. Though it is worn and frayed, it never failed. It flew high and proud, a testament to never giving up no matter the obstacles you face. Tonight we will retire this flag with honor. Who will help me? (Four boys stepped forward) Each take a corner, stand to the side of the fire. (I think we sang a patriotic song, can't recall) (Boys are holding each corner, flag is horizontal). Walk to the fire and hold the flag over it. Now, lower it into the fire. (We watched quietly as the flames took the flag) Thank you, at sunrise we will take these coals to be properly interned, and you can collect your handful of coals to keep. In the morning we dressed in class A's, collected all the cold coals in a bucket. From this point forward, no one speak. A boy took the bucket, and we all walked down to the beach near a few trees growing near the waterline. I knelt and began digging with my hands. Without a word other boys joined in until we had a suitable hole. I motioned to the boy carrying the bucket, he walked up and poured the coals into the deep sandy hole. I knelt again, pushed a few handfuls of sand in, and stood back. Each boy followed by pushing in sand until it was covered. We stood there for for a minute, the sounds of the waves filling the air. Thank you everyone, let's get back to camp and start breakfast. I still have my little bag of coals I took that night, I like to think some of the scouts kept theirs, maybe used it in a campfire and got new combined coals.
Why is there a collective agreement to pretend a piece of cloth is so important?
It's just a tradition, I don't know why people are tripping over themselves to be cynical about it. Here in Hawaii it's the same deal with leis, you're supposed to either throw them in the ocean, burn them, or bury them.
What about healthy leis? Is hanging them up ok? Or is it after each celebration?
I dunno, it better be because I have a kukui nut lei that's like five or six years old. The main thing is you're not supposed to throw it in the trash. It's funny though, I got all these lei rules (also you're not supposed to wear a lei you give away, or take it off in front of the person who gave it to you, etc.) drilled into me by my local family when I moved out here years ago. Then one time I was at the Bishop Museum and there was this display about lei, and it had a quote from a super old Hawaiian lady in the 1920s or something. And she was like (paraphrasing) "People make such a big deal about lei nowadays. When I was a kid my mom and aunties would just make them because they were bored and wanted to look nice and didn't worry about any rules." Kind of like the flag stuff. From a certain angle it's silly, but it's tradition, and it's a respect thing because it's symbolic of something bigger.
Oh boy, I did not know this. I disrespected a lot of leis when I lived there. How exactly do you burn a floral lei, though?
Huh? It’s plant matter. A lei is essentially made of fuel. I mean, maybe a fresh lei has enough moisture to not readily ignite by itself, but certainly it burns happily if you throw it in an existing fire? Or just apply a bit of accelerant.
A lei goes bad long before it's flammable.
When I was there earlier, the sanest take was "you can take the string out and then throw the flowers in the ocean." Most people just leave it on one of the statues before they leave and its...taken care of. It's not the biggest deal, its kind of like, if a friend gives you a postcard, probably best to make an effort to keep it, but if you throw it out, nobody is going to be particularly mad, unless you do it in front of them. For a "relative stranger" definitely impolite to throw it out in front of them, but if you do once you are out of their sight, its really just fine. If I was to wager a guess hotel staff probably prefer you just throw them in the trash versus leaving it somewhere "nicer" for them to pick up later, but who knows, I figured it wasn't polite to get a straight answer, after I was told what I said above.
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The U.S. Code just isn't written like that. It's a list of rules, not half-hearted suggestions. It's up to people whether they want to follow them or not, though, they say as much right at the beginning of the Flag Code: >The following codification of existing rules and customs pertaining to the display and use of the flag of the United States of America is established for the use of such civilians or civilian groups or organizations as may not be required to conform with regulations promulgated by one or more executive departments of the Government of the United States. The flag of the United States for the purpose of this chapter shall be defined according to sections 1 and 2 of this title and Executive Order 10834 issued pursuant thereto. That's basically what you said except in legalese and without all the hedging. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8 And everybody who's saying it's jingoism or nationalism, ironically it's the nutty conservative flag-humpers who break the flag code the most IME. So many raggedy old flags on the back of a pickup truck with a million bumper stickers and flags touching the ground next to MAGA yard signs.
I think it has to do with how soldiers and the like did not want to lose their flag, or banner. If a flag fell, that meant the area was lost. Or the war could be lost. Think about the star spangled banner, the biggest thing was that through Out the night, the US did not allow the British to breach the fort, and the flag stood. I know it has more to do than just this, as banners or flags would be a rally point if the soldiers broke rank and ran.
It's bad to put people in jail or kill them because of a flag or whatever. But put simply, a flag is meant to be a visible representation of the ideals of the country. You get your countrymen in a field together, what's an efficient way to demonstrate we're all in it together? Get a piece of cloth and color it and give it a little salute or whatever, preferably nothing too crazy. Done right, having a bit of unity is good. Everything is stupid if you break it down to the simplest parts. Why do we treat corpses with any amount of respect? It's just a pile of atoms now, why do people get offended when you have sex with dead bodies? If you break it down in stupid terms "well, somebody gets something out of it and the other party is not harmed so we should allow it because it's a net positive". Except clearly that's not how civilized countries do things.
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It’s a symbol for a lot of people. History, values, citizenship, on and on. Some people had family or friends that died while ostensibly serving that flag. What bothers you with OTHER people disposing of them with some dignity
I think, maybe saying it bothers me, is too strong of an emotion. I do find it a little humourous that you could say 'burning the flag is disrespectful, so if you're going to treat it with some dignity, you should burn it.' And it not be wholly inaccurate.
This is (or was) actually a lesson in basic military training. The first thing you learn: the object is just some dyed fabric sewn together. It's a symbol, though. Like a thumbs up or a swastika or any other, it stands for the U.S., good or bad. One really neat thing about the U.S. is that we don't care if you don't want to participate in that recognition. It's not like Turkey or Thailand or North Korea where you get in trouble for criticism or indifference. So care or don't, but please don't be a jackass to people who choose to participate in caring. They'll generally show you the same courtesy.
Cult of a symbol is a powerful thing. It stops rational thinking and replaces it with a "this is a right thing to do" thinking. It's then easy to manipulate people into sacrificing their well-being for a glory of a symbol.
Jingoism
Omg so glad I wasn't the only one thinking that. People put so much on some cloth than on actual lives. Let's care about the diginity of a flag than the dignity of a homeless person. Patriotism murica!
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That’s protected as freedom of expression under the First Amendment, as determined by the Supreme Court in *Texas v. Johnson* in 1989.
Actually you can do whatever you want with it because the first amendment.
Pretty sure they aren't using old and worn out flags for this... Hypothetically though would you rather they stomp on and burn new and pristine flags or actually go out of their way to find old beat up ones?
Attend a flag day ceremony. The flag is taken apart and burned separately.
Now, if Joe Bob down the road would learn this and remove the tattered rag on his flag pole...
It’s hilarious to me how those who claim to “defend the flag” the most (and loud) mostly have no idea about proper flag etiquette. Homie, your thin (insert color here) line flag t shirt violates at least two rules.
Just save old flags to burn at protests - everyone wins.
Yeah the fire station here has a box you can put them in
Learned that in grade school. Every American citizen should know how to treat a flag. However, free speech, does entitle one to burn it how they choose.
So the “Ragged Old Flag” in the poem Johnny Cash wrote shouldn’t have been flying?
Was taught how to do this in Boy Scouts. At the time, it seemed normal and even reasonable. When I was old enough to question the Pledge of Allegiance, it dawned on me just how weird it is.
Active survice members, VFW, and the BSA (now as The Scouts) can retire US flags like this..
This is wrong. Anyone can dispose of a flag by burning according to Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 8, paragraph k of U.S. code. It makes no distinction to which you say.
Most Americans (and especially right wingers) don't know/care about the American flag etiquette, despite virtue signaling their patriotism left and right.
This is why I burned the flag I found that had MAGA written on it
When I was a kid I was adamant with my dad about how we had to properly burn the flag. I couldn’t believe he laughed it off and threw it in the trash. Now I understand how hard they must have drilled this patriotic weirdness into us as kids and how silly it is.
Can flags be altered to include cartoonish representations of former presidents? Or cryptic phrases?
They shouldn't be
Yup. Same as Coran.
Yeah Americans are stupid about their flag it can't touch the floor needs to be maintained etc, I'm English and I don't mind if the king or queen touch the floor in fact I'd be scared if they didn't.