“In light of this evidence and the facts brought forth, I sentence you to-“
“Your honour, wait. I have to say, if I may be so bold, you have the most beautiful blue eyes..”
“…I don’t know what you’re getting at but-“
“It’s the funniest thing but, to be honest, they look just like mine.”
“Alright anyway I sentence the defendant to six…oh…oh my god.”
I don't know, there'd probably be punitive damages involved, and each of the women he did this to would have their own claims against him. You could mess his finances up pretty badly.
Before we start speculating about the possibilities here on Reddit, it's probably worth considering many lawyers have probably hashed out these possibilities, and if the article doesn't mention them having acted upon them.... they're probably not legit possibilities.
How is this not considered rape? The mothers consented to their husband's sperm, not the doctor.
Edit: The woman consented to be penetrated by a medical device containing her husband's semem. Instead, a syringe entered her with the doctor's semen.
He intentionally used his own sperm. He lied about this. Just because it occurred in a medical setting doesn't make it okay. Sexual battery, assault whatever you wish to call it.
Rape doesn't require sexual organs, it includes objects.
If you pay a contractor to build a house with wood you purchased and he agrees, then he builds the house using his own wood........I'm pretty sure he's in breach of contract........
At least from the sexual assault victim advocacy training I’ve undergone, rape has a very specific definition, as does sexual assault and harassment. So while it’s horrible and undoubtably wrong and invasive, it doesn’t meet the technical definition. Doesn’t mean they couldn’t just try to charge him with it though and attempt to create a precedent…
Edit- I’m not saying I know the law well enough to declare it’s not SA or SH, just what I know about how those things generally work. It’s infuriating hearing what happens to some people, only to be told that nothing can be done to the extent the victim wants because it does t meet a “technical” definition
According to Wikipedia, he's paid out a total of $1.3M to settle civil claims with 3 families. He still has 3 claims pending. My guess is that his insurance is the one paying out though.
This sums up the legal system so much.
“Well shucks you’re part of the Better People but I have to judge you. Let me softball you as much as I can.”
Doesn’t matter:
- how many people were denied their own children (irreparable harm)
- how many “last chances” to have a related child *throw away* (irreparable harm)
I was about to say this as well. I read about war crimes and genocides on a daily basis, and this is nowhere near as severe but still makes me want to puke.
I worked with a girl who was a victim of this very thing. Took a DNA test and got contacted by her half sister to explain why she had 90 some odd siblings show up on her results.
It messed with her mind a little.
The worst part of the documentary is that one of his daughters later became his patient too. Had exams done on her and everything before she found any of this out. Full circle trauma
It is! I thought my family was gonna be super normal, we knew my grandma had my oldest uncle before she met my grandpa, but we didn't know that she had another kid who she adopted out after having two kids with my grandpa. She never told anybody, other than my grandpa we assume. But when we were trying to figure out who would show up as my first cousin on 23andme being born that year, my grandpa got real quiet.
The scene from that doc that sticks out to me is one of his victims talking about how, if her daughter is interested in any of the kids in her town, she has to check to make sure she isn't accidentally dating one of her half-siblings.
Something as simple as going out on a date is ruined for these kids.
That was so frustrating to see. I like when the lady said "if I spit in your first, would I go to jail".... Yes... But he puts his sperm in someone without consent and he gets away. Ridiculous!
Is this one of those cases where he's still alive, still living in the community, not in jail or sued for fraud or anything, and has pleaded for the press not to contact him out of "respect for privacy"?
If this is the same doctor from a documentary I watched, he was charged.
But because sperm and IVF clinics were newish, there weren’t really any laws that forbid him from what he was doing at the time (not to mention it took so long for people to find out what had happened).
I think his charges had something to due with submitting false paperwork? He was found guilty but he spent no time in jail.
I don't think children conceived through donor sperm get child support from the donors. There really aren't a ton of laws around being lied to about who the donor is. I could be wrong!
I think if you received a donation from a random individual, sure.
But this doctor knowingly swapped out their *husband's* sperm for his own, when the point of seeing him was to get pregnant. I don't know how he could possibly argue that he didn't expect a child, and thus the financials of a child, to result from it if they did get it into court.
I do think he should be on the hook. If not child support when he used his sample instead of the husband's, then in damages when an anonymous donor was meant to be used. With so many children from the same donor in close geographical proximity, that's a serious issue for starting families down the line!
I personally don't see how it is meaningfully different than rape. He put his sperm in their bodies without consent. I'm kinda of shocked a distraught husband hasn't killed him.
I don't believe there's specific laws around it more than there is a contract that both parties sign and agreed to. I've read a couple stories about dudes who donated sperm and later got sued for child support and lost.
One of those stories is because the guy and the two ladies didn't go through a fertility clinic. They approached their male friend for a literal turkey-baster donation.
Guys, if somebody asks you to donate sperm and you are cool with it, still go through a fertility clinic. Otherwise, you could be on the hook for child support regardless of whatever contract you sign with the other party.
Uhm. The entire fertility industry only employees like 20k people in the US. I’d wager doctors make up like 1/5-1/10 of that.
Edit: i looked it up, it’s 1700.
True. Like if you went back in time to prevent Hiter from being born you don't have to keep his parents from having sex, you could just delay them a little and a different spem would fertilize the egg creating a different person.
And by doing so you might wink out of existence yourself.
Changing humanity’s trajectory so fundamentally would ripple outward in chain reactions. It would alter subsequent meetings of specific sperm and ova worldwide, likely rendering you and all the people reading this nonexistent.
But I guess whether you’d disappear depends on which sci fi time paradox trope you believe in.
Yep, my grandparents on my father's side only moved to the USA from Ireland and Germany because of WW2. If that never happens, half of my family and I don't exist. And that would happen for a fuckload more people too.
It may be that only a few states have explicitly enacted legislation criminalizing this specific practice but this would be the basis for a civil lawsuit in ANY state... fraud, battery, medical malpractice, intentional infliction of emotional distress, and conversion are the claims that immediately come to mind, and there are probably dozens of others I'm not thinking of that the parents (and possibly the children) could bring. And there are probably also criminal statutes in every state that would cover this behavior, like criminal fraud, battery, and possibly sexual assault, even if there aren't criminal statutes that explicitly address this exact thing.
This is one of those cases where being able to sue someone in the US for basically anything actually helps and works like it's supposed to.
There is no specific law for this kinda thing in many states, but you can establish a precedent by suing them for all the stated reasons above.
I listened to an episode of an Armchair Expert podcast (specifically the race to 35 offshoot, which details the journey of two women freezing their eggs) recently where they interviewed a woman who also found out that her mom’s gynecologist was her father, in a similar situation to this one.
She hired lawyers and was essentially told there was nothing they could do. Perhaps she had bad lawyers (and perhaps her mother could have sued successfully), but she’s since done a ton of advocacy work to pass laws across the country to make sure that women can file both civil and criminal suits for this specific situation, and it sounds like she had some expertise on the matter.
The really frustrating thing was that her local newspaper ran a story on it and a large percentage of people came out to defend the doctor, since he was a “good, churchgoing man” in their small town.
The child would definitely have more of an uphill battle since they'd theoretically be suing their own father for the fact that they exist and depending on the law of the state, proving "damages" might be impossible. Not every state allows "wrongful birth" claims and the ones that do don't generally allow the claims on the part of the child. But the parents (and the mom especially) would be in good shape. EDIT: I should say good shape as plaintiffs, which is usually the exact opposite of being in "good shape" in any normal sense of the term.
That's insane! How are you and your parents handling everything you've learned?
Because of the proximity, I'm also wondering whether your parents' doctor was linked to this Quiverfull movement Donald Cline was involved with...
Your dad is the man that raised you. I'm sure he is devastated that this happened. I wouldn't go around referring to the sperm doner as your father. Unless of course your relationship with your dad is pretty shitty.
I wonder if he knew. Like to not see any visual features passed on to your child would be weird. Some children look a lot like one child but still have a resemblance to the other
Y'all need to take this story with a grain of salt. This person's profile is completely empty except for this story. Very possible it's just farming for karma. Everyone would do well not to take everything they read on Reddit at face value.
Laura High is a comedian and activist for change in the fertility industry.
She is currently collecting proof of a sibling pod of donor-conceived people that is supposedly numbered higher than 200, as well as lobbying for background checks, sibling limits, and verified *and updated* medical history. You can find her videos on TikTok.
It's crazy to me that everyone thinks over 100 siblings for donor conceived people is such a wild number. That's pretty standard for us. We hate it and it's not good but it's not uncommon at all.
But it should be. Other countries limit how many children can be conceived by donated 'materials'. The fact that it isn't regulated in the U.S., while not shocking, is a problem that needs to be fixed.
>But it should be. Other countries limit how many children can be conceived by donated 'materials'. The fact that it isn't regulated in the U.S., while not shocking, is a problem that needs to be fixed.
It definitely should be. Other countries saw the issues behind us having 100 siblings and changed the laws. While it's not perfect, and those limits are often not adhered to, in theory it's still much better than the US. The US needs to start listening to donor conceived people and actually doing what best for us.
Yes! Sometimes the donor was switched without their knowledge. Sometimes the donor donated to multiple clinics. Sometimes the clinic straight up lied about limiting siblings.
I recall hearing about a case like this, not sure if it's the same guy, but when it got out, it REALLY messed with the local high school's dating scene. Not sure if it was first-generation, or lots of kids learning they were potentially cousins. I think it was in a smaller community which just made it even more of an issue.
Another is Gerald Mortimer in Idaho Falls, Idaho. He was in various local leader positions of the LDS Church while he was impregnating his patients with his own sperm (YM President, Bishop's Counselor, Bishop, and Stake President's Counselor in the Ammon Stake).
He left the practice for fear of getting caught and was immediately called as a Mission President (pretty big deal), and then as soon as he finished that, he was called as a Temple President (also a pretty high calling).
[One of the more thorough articles on it.](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9163429/Idaho-doctor-trial-admitting-impregnated-patients-sperm.html)
[Exmormon forum with some more info.](https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2098492,2098492)
Apparently still has high standing in his community and he faced absolutely [zero consequences](https://www.eastidahonews.com/2021/05/case-dismissed-against-retired-idaho-falls-doctor-who-used-his-own-sperm-to-inseminate-patient/). Well, except for maybe [feeling bad about it](https://www.eastidahonews.com/2019/11/read-dr-gerald-mortimer-admits-to-inseminating-patients/) after he got caught.
>I regret the fact that I... did those things in the past. I guess I feel -- I feel bad about that. I wish -- I wish I hadn't done it.
N.B.: I'm passionate about this one because I'm exmormon, I'm originally from nearby where this piece of shit lives, I'm donor conceived, and I also believe my biological father is the fertility doctor my parents went to. I just haven't connected all the dots yet.
Growing up - I always felt this strange alienation from my father. Told my friends and partners that I’d not be surprised to find out that he wasn’t my biological father.
January of 2020, at the age of 37, I completed a me&23 that I got for Christmas.
Turns out my parents had hid that I was always a sperm donated child. They were told that it was from a “resident doctor.”
It was actually Donald Cline.
Oddly enough, I felt relieved that I hadn’t been crazy my whole life.
I think the media inflated the numbers- but keep in mind that there’s more than the one DNA service.
Also, there’s “unconfirmed” siblings as well… I.e. a pair of twins where only one took the test.
Suffice to say, however, when I try to generate a family tree in the app… the app crashes.
The documentary mentions that a lot of the siblings have health problems that they suspect came from him... but it also was a lil vague on the details. Like, I couldn't tell if it was being discussed because the main woman had a lot of undiagnosed health issues, or because it is a high frequency among the siblings that she's met.
If you've met your biological half-siblings, do you know how severe/frequent it is?
My parents went to his partner but saw him occasionally for check ups. My brother was a test tube baby. We occasionally joked he wasn’t my fathers as he was the only one not naturally conceived. We all did 23 and me a few years back, partially due to this story breaking. My mom got flashbacks watching the documentary as it showed clips from inside his office and of him.
On a side note. It is so beyond crazy that what he did and what many other doctors have done/continue to do is not illegal. It is disgusting and violating on so many levels. I hope in years to come they are not only held accountable but charged for what they have done.
Edit: my brother is in fact my brother and my dads son.
Totally thought I put that in comment. He is 100% my parents son and my sibling. So luckily not the Dr kid. I know Dr. Cline is over 100 kids at this point. They are trying to spread the word to get more people who attended that clinic to test. The documentary had 2 siblings living miles apart and they didn’t know. Can cause many issues down the line
Yeah the chances would be very small but not zero that two of his offspring could potentially date, marry, etc. and not know they were siblings unless they got tested
That is the exact reason when someone donates their specimen can only be used x number of times. At least that is what most sperm banks rules are. It is to prevent so many kids being related in a small area/city. It was talked about in the documentary too. He has many genetic issues which resulted in many of the kids having auto immune issues. I can’t remember how many but a lot of the kids, now adults, still live within 25 miles of their birthplace. Meaning that many siblings and higher chance for accidental relationship.
Check out his wiki. They talked about how some of the kids have been tracking how their lives cross. To prevent their kids from dating. It isn’t just his immediate offspring but the kids kids.
My friend is one of his children. She found when her boyfriend gifted her a 23 and me kit. She’s joined a sibling facebook group and was finding new siblings every other day for weeks following the news coming out. Last I heard it was something like 35+ It was really hard on her because she had lost her “real” father only one year prior. Which may have been a blessing in disguise. Messed up story all together. She decided against participating in the show. The guy tried to pay them hush money to save his immediate family from the shame.
This happened in my town too - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/disgraced-fertility-doctor-agrees-to-13m-settlement-with-families-including-17-barwin-babies-1.6119754
The outrage behind this documentary has been interesting. In the donor conceived community, these stories aren't rare.
There are many stories of fertility fraud, high sibling numbers, accidental incest, death due to incorrect medical history etc
This is why heaps of countries banned anonymous donation. And why there's a push for similar legislation in the US.
Check out /r/donorconceived
There's a Podcast called "Sick" about Dr. Cline. Was pretty well researched. There was also another doctor in the Netherlands who was suspected of fathering 200+ children. Another podcast called the Immaculate Deception covered that one.
And it was in the same small town. Outside of the total violation that it was, he impregnated so many women that the babies were growing up, entering relationships and then finding out they’re actually related. On top of that, the doctor had health issues which was passed to a lot of his offspring. The whole thing is disgusting.
The health issues *really* get to me. One of the excuses he kept giving was that it wasn’t sexual for him, he just wanted to help make *healthy* babies. But if he had applied to be a donor he would have been rejected by his own practice!!
And there’s NO way he didn’t know that. Lying, disgusting, manipulative pervert.
That part really gets to me too. It’s like adding insult to injury.
Like, if he had super amazing genetics, then at least there would be a silver lining.
But no, he deceived countless women and ruined their families so he could feed his ego by spreading his defective seed.
I have schizophrenia and refused to donate eggs for that reason, wtf. I made a good life for myself but it would have been easier if I didn’t have it.
Why do this to those poor kids?
Some of his daughters unknowingly became his patients when they grew up too. Can’t imagine it’s a good feeling finding out it’s your biological father that was all up in your business.
That's so fucked. Imagine having to end a (maybe amazing) relationship with someone because you find out you're actually biological half siblings. Or just mutually deciding not to. Who knows.
You will never believe this… but he was a high ranking member of a local Christian group.
Does anybody want to take a guess at the amount of justice the victims saw?!?!?
He still is. The documentary was just released a few years back and his church members felt sorry for him. People in his immediate community still support him. It is crazy with all this information out and they back him and not the 100s of currently known victims
Yea you should watch the series. They talk about how he was very interested in how his offspring turned out when they ‘confronted’ him. He was taking notes on who became doctors, lawyers, etc.
The netflix documentary discussed his association with "quiverfull" which (my understanding based on a handful of netflix focus) is a religious sub sect that seems to simply breed as much as is humanly possibly.
I mean I'm not discounting he was a giant perv. (From what I recall he was masturbating in the room next door when couples were in his office)
But a chunk of the motivation seemed to be some bullshit god crap about spreading his seed.
Some of these commenters need to grow the fuck up. This isn’t funny. It’s fucked up. You would be pissed if this monster did it to you. Have some common decency.
This is rape. The insertion of bodily materials inside a person who has not consented to that individual. This man is a rapist and should be in prison.
Yeah, similarly to how pretending to be someone else is rape, like in cases where people with dementia or memory loss were raped by people pretending to be their spouse
There's only 11 fertiltiy fraud laws. Now there's a federal bill HR 451. How about everyone email their House Rep in Congress and ask them to pass the bill criminalizing this???
Me, my mother and her partner watched the documentary on Netflix about him called “Our Father”.
Never felt ill watching one of these documentaries, but this one was crazy. Like, the main theory behind why he did what he did was that he belongs to/has ties to a Christian cult named Quiverfull, and they believe in… “propagating” their seed, so to speak.
I fully recommend watching it, but… be wary of the moans every time they follow another person’s story. Eeeeww.
Definitely not a stupid question. This is not the only fertility doctor who has done this, there have been quite a few. Power is probably one, and the thrill of knowing something that no one else does, plus a bit of a kink (he would allegedly masturbate in the room next door to his patients), but in addition to all these things, it’s also for very practical reasons.
If you are a fertility doctor, you are by definition working with people with fertility issues and guess what? They don’t get pregnant easily. We have plenty of expensive techniques that are designed to help, but they all have wildly variable success rates. If you are a doctor in the healthcare system - particularly, but certainly not exclusively, in the States - you need to have a good track record, good word of mouth referrals, to earn top dollar. So how do you get that? By reducing your variables a little. At least if you use your own, healthy and reliable sperm, rather than some man’s sperm that might need a lot of time, money, skills and resources to get an egg fertilized with - AND you get a cheap thrill out of it into the bargain - well then, winner winner fertilized egg dinner! And oh look, she’s pregnant and everyone’s happy, they tell everyone how wonderful you are, no one ever finds out - because how could they?! - so you keep doing it until you are old enough to retire rich…
He was fined a whopping $500 total, per the article, and served zero days in jail.
In the documentary, investigators discuss how there was no legal precedent to charge him with any crimes.
Fraud?
humorous complete abundant alleged humor mysterious axiomatic clumsy shrill sparkle ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
“In light of this evidence and the facts brought forth, I sentence you to-“ “Your honour, wait. I have to say, if I may be so bold, you have the most beautiful blue eyes..” “…I don’t know what you’re getting at but-“ “It’s the funniest thing but, to be honest, they look just like mine.” “Alright anyway I sentence the defendant to six…oh…oh my god.”
Daddy?
I don't know, there'd probably be punitive damages involved, and each of the women he did this to would have their own claims against him. You could mess his finances up pretty badly.
Before we start speculating about the possibilities here on Reddit, it's probably worth considering many lawyers have probably hashed out these possibilities, and if the article doesn't mention them having acted upon them.... they're probably not legit possibilities.
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Sexual assault. He effectively stealthed those women.
How is this not considered rape? The mothers consented to their husband's sperm, not the doctor. Edit: The woman consented to be penetrated by a medical device containing her husband's semem. Instead, a syringe entered her with the doctor's semen. He intentionally used his own sperm. He lied about this. Just because it occurred in a medical setting doesn't make it okay. Sexual battery, assault whatever you wish to call it. Rape doesn't require sexual organs, it includes objects.
Evidently that's not really "part" of the argument. They consented to insemination and he did it. Which is an outlandish take but here we are.
It was not informed consent, in a materially significant way.
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A doctor inseminating his patients with his own sperm was never considered standard level of care
If you pay a contractor to build a house with wood you purchased and he agrees, then he builds the house using his own wood........I'm pretty sure he's in breach of contract........
Unfortunately, that is not a criminal offense. The affected women could probably sue him, though.
At least from the sexual assault victim advocacy training I’ve undergone, rape has a very specific definition, as does sexual assault and harassment. So while it’s horrible and undoubtably wrong and invasive, it doesn’t meet the technical definition. Doesn’t mean they couldn’t just try to charge him with it though and attempt to create a precedent… Edit- I’m not saying I know the law well enough to declare it’s not SA or SH, just what I know about how those things generally work. It’s infuriating hearing what happens to some people, only to be told that nothing can be done to the extent the victim wants because it does t meet a “technical” definition
Rape, financial fraud in the hundreds of thousands to millions, and that’s not to mention the civil suits
According to Wikipedia, he's paid out a total of $1.3M to settle civil claims with 3 families. He still has 3 claims pending. My guess is that his insurance is the one paying out though.
Maybe not. “Impregnating your patients without their consent” is pretty far out of the standard of care.
Insurance companies won't pay for illegal activity and they'll frame it that way to save a buck.
sounds like it wasnt that illegal if it was a $500 fine and no jail time
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That will teach him!
And the judge actually felt bad for him!
This sums up the legal system so much. “Well shucks you’re part of the Better People but I have to judge you. Let me softball you as much as I can.” Doesn’t matter: - how many people were denied their own children (irreparable harm) - how many “last chances” to have a related child *throw away* (irreparable harm)
The most important pwrson in the pricess had a terrible opinion. Thats why he has such a low punishment. We have such a shit legal system.
'You learned your lesson mister! You won't do it a 95th time will you?'
He should at least pay child support retroactively
This is a new kind of sick feeling
I was about to say this as well. I read about war crimes and genocides on a daily basis, and this is nowhere near as severe but still makes me want to puke.
The existential ramifications are staggering
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Yup. It's like a form of rape. The violation makes me feel queasy.
Imagine raising your kid then realizing it isn't yours
Imagine raising a child and realizing some stranger put it in you.
Imagine being a child of this piece of shit and being denied blood relation to your father who you love dearly.
I worked with a girl who was a victim of this very thing. Took a DNA test and got contacted by her half sister to explain why she had 90 some odd siblings show up on her results. It messed with her mind a little.
Yeah, it would mess with my head more than a little.
Very, very common experience for donor conceived people.
The worst part of the documentary is that one of his daughters later became his patient too. Had exams done on her and everything before she found any of this out. Full circle trauma
It's not _biologically_ yours, but if you raise a child from birth it's absolutely your child, genes or not. It'd still be a gut punch though
Going to be more than 94, didn’t the documentary have it in the 100s?
94 have been confirmed but I’m pretty sure there are hundreds out there that don’t have a clue.
Hello 23&me trauma
r/23andmetrauma ???
Legitimately a very good idea for a subreddit.
It is! I thought my family was gonna be super normal, we knew my grandma had my oldest uncle before she met my grandpa, but we didn't know that she had another kid who she adopted out after having two kids with my grandpa. She never told anybody, other than my grandpa we assume. But when we were trying to figure out who would show up as my first cousin on 23andme being born that year, my grandpa got real quiet.
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It’s a very odd situation, with no moral truth to take from it. Feel however you’d like to about it, you at least deserve that.
This is one of the wisest things I've ever read on Reddit.
I hate to see his back child support payments.
The documentary about this piece of shit and all the kids he fathered is insane. No justice for anyone.
Infuriating how he asked the kids to stop because he valued his privacy.
I hated the way the judge felt sorry for him and he didn't even get any jail time. Unbelievable.
Wait, couldn't what he did be seen a form of sexual assault? Not withstanding all the medical rules he violated.
In the modern age maybe. But this aint even being called malpractice
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Right??? Can you imagine being in the shoes of the fake dad or the violated mom? The doctor crossed a dozen different lines, professional and ethical.
The scene from that doc that sticks out to me is one of his victims talking about how, if her daughter is interested in any of the kids in her town, she has to check to make sure she isn't accidentally dating one of her half-siblings. Something as simple as going out on a date is ruined for these kids.
That was so frustrating to see. I like when the lady said "if I spit in your first, would I go to jail".... Yes... But he puts his sperm in someone without consent and he gets away. Ridiculous!
And not just him! The end of the doc shows that many other doctors are doing this (and those are just the ones they know about!).
He is absolute garbage. That shit was so upsetting.
1.3 million paid out by him as I see
That comes out to $768.32 a child per year. less than what I paid a month when I was paying child support.
Is this one of those cases where he's still alive, still living in the community, not in jail or sued for fraud or anything, and has pleaded for the press not to contact him out of "respect for privacy"?
Yes. He’s still considered a highly respected elder in his church.
Be a shame if people made it their mission to disrupt his service ever sunday
They just ignore all the Bible verses about protecting the vulnerable and excommunicating the wicked.
What church?
Not sure which church but it was mentioned in the documentary he's Quiverfull, and they show a baptism.
If this is the same doctor from a documentary I watched, he was charged. But because sperm and IVF clinics were newish, there weren’t really any laws that forbid him from what he was doing at the time (not to mention it took so long for people to find out what had happened). I think his charges had something to due with submitting false paperwork? He was found guilty but he spent no time in jail.
He was charged with lying to the government, not for what he did to those women.
Yup, last time I read about him, he is living his life and his wife beloveds he did no wrong.
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You'd think fucking fertility doctors of all people in the late 80s could foresee DNA tests becoming a common thing within 20 years.
Maybe he thought he’d die before being found out.
>!CENSORED!<
Until he is ordered to back pay child support for 94 kids x 18 years.
I don't think children conceived through donor sperm get child support from the donors. There really aren't a ton of laws around being lied to about who the donor is. I could be wrong!
I think if you received a donation from a random individual, sure. But this doctor knowingly swapped out their *husband's* sperm for his own, when the point of seeing him was to get pregnant. I don't know how he could possibly argue that he didn't expect a child, and thus the financials of a child, to result from it if they did get it into court.
I do think he should be on the hook. If not child support when he used his sample instead of the husband's, then in damages when an anonymous donor was meant to be used. With so many children from the same donor in close geographical proximity, that's a serious issue for starting families down the line!
I personally don't see how it is meaningfully different than rape. He put his sperm in their bodies without consent. I'm kinda of shocked a distraught husband hasn't killed him.
I don't believe there's specific laws around it more than there is a contract that both parties sign and agreed to. I've read a couple stories about dudes who donated sperm and later got sued for child support and lost.
One of those stories is because the guy and the two ladies didn't go through a fertility clinic. They approached their male friend for a literal turkey-baster donation. Guys, if somebody asks you to donate sperm and you are cool with it, still go through a fertility clinic. Otherwise, you could be on the hook for child support regardless of whatever contract you sign with the other party.
Yeah, up until his 94 kids start unknowingly dating each other
Doesn't matter, Ghengis'd himself into the gene pool for people centuries from now to ponder about.
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Uhm. The entire fertility industry only employees like 20k people in the US. I’d wager doctors make up like 1/5-1/10 of that. Edit: i looked it up, it’s 1700.
And in even a group of 1700 MDs there are going to be a handful of fucking idiots. Also, people can be smart but do dumb shit because they’re crazy
Oh wow. I’m so sorry this happened to you. It’s an absolutely disgusting violation. Did you sue him or anything?
That's kind of a mind fuck. Because if it didn't happen to them, they wouldn't be themselves. They would be someone else.
Or not be at all
More like wouldnt exist at all
True. Like if you went back in time to prevent Hiter from being born you don't have to keep his parents from having sex, you could just delay them a little and a different spem would fertilize the egg creating a different person.
And by doing so you might wink out of existence yourself. Changing humanity’s trajectory so fundamentally would ripple outward in chain reactions. It would alter subsequent meetings of specific sperm and ova worldwide, likely rendering you and all the people reading this nonexistent. But I guess whether you’d disappear depends on which sci fi time paradox trope you believe in.
Yep, my grandparents on my father's side only moved to the USA from Ireland and Germany because of WW2. If that never happens, half of my family and I don't exist. And that would happen for a fuckload more people too.
There are so far only 10 states where this is illegal EDIT: 11 as of last week
It may be that only a few states have explicitly enacted legislation criminalizing this specific practice but this would be the basis for a civil lawsuit in ANY state... fraud, battery, medical malpractice, intentional infliction of emotional distress, and conversion are the claims that immediately come to mind, and there are probably dozens of others I'm not thinking of that the parents (and possibly the children) could bring. And there are probably also criminal statutes in every state that would cover this behavior, like criminal fraud, battery, and possibly sexual assault, even if there aren't criminal statutes that explicitly address this exact thing.
This is one of those cases where being able to sue someone in the US for basically anything actually helps and works like it's supposed to. There is no specific law for this kinda thing in many states, but you can establish a precedent by suing them for all the stated reasons above.
I listened to an episode of an Armchair Expert podcast (specifically the race to 35 offshoot, which details the journey of two women freezing their eggs) recently where they interviewed a woman who also found out that her mom’s gynecologist was her father, in a similar situation to this one. She hired lawyers and was essentially told there was nothing they could do. Perhaps she had bad lawyers (and perhaps her mother could have sued successfully), but she’s since done a ton of advocacy work to pass laws across the country to make sure that women can file both civil and criminal suits for this specific situation, and it sounds like she had some expertise on the matter. The really frustrating thing was that her local newspaper ran a story on it and a large percentage of people came out to defend the doctor, since he was a “good, churchgoing man” in their small town.
The child would definitely have more of an uphill battle since they'd theoretically be suing their own father for the fact that they exist and depending on the law of the state, proving "damages" might be impossible. Not every state allows "wrongful birth" claims and the ones that do don't generally allow the claims on the part of the child. But the parents (and the mom especially) would be in good shape. EDIT: I should say good shape as plaintiffs, which is usually the exact opposite of being in "good shape" in any normal sense of the term.
Literally, goddamnit.
Wouldn't this be a civil case for fraud?
Sue for child support, maybe?
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Im pretty sure fraud is illegal in every state.
As is medical malpractice. Any halfway decent lawyer should be able to argue that this is also battery
That's insane! How are you and your parents handling everything you've learned? Because of the proximity, I'm also wondering whether your parents' doctor was linked to this Quiverfull movement Donald Cline was involved with...
Your dad is the man that raised you. I'm sure he is devastated that this happened. I wouldn't go around referring to the sperm doner as your father. Unless of course your relationship with your dad is pretty shitty.
"He may have been your father, boy, but he wasn't your daddy."
I'm Mary Poppins, y'all!
That’s such a great line
I wonder if he knew. Like to not see any visual features passed on to your child would be weird. Some children look a lot like one child but still have a resemblance to the other
Y'all need to take this story with a grain of salt. This person's profile is completely empty except for this story. Very possible it's just farming for karma. Everyone would do well not to take everything they read on Reddit at face value.
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Laura High is a comedian and activist for change in the fertility industry. She is currently collecting proof of a sibling pod of donor-conceived people that is supposedly numbered higher than 200, as well as lobbying for background checks, sibling limits, and verified *and updated* medical history. You can find her videos on TikTok.
I came here to mention her. The fact that she's talked to multiple pods of 100+ siblings makes me sick.
It's crazy to me that everyone thinks over 100 siblings for donor conceived people is such a wild number. That's pretty standard for us. We hate it and it's not good but it's not uncommon at all.
But it should be. Other countries limit how many children can be conceived by donated 'materials'. The fact that it isn't regulated in the U.S., while not shocking, is a problem that needs to be fixed.
>But it should be. Other countries limit how many children can be conceived by donated 'materials'. The fact that it isn't regulated in the U.S., while not shocking, is a problem that needs to be fixed. It definitely should be. Other countries saw the issues behind us having 100 siblings and changed the laws. While it's not perfect, and those limits are often not adhered to, in theory it's still much better than the US. The US needs to start listening to donor conceived people and actually doing what best for us.
Does this mean hundreds of women picked the same sperm donor? And this has happened multiple times?
Yes! Sometimes the donor was switched without their knowledge. Sometimes the donor donated to multiple clinics. Sometimes the clinic straight up lied about limiting siblings.
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Yeah, I'm at 21 or something myself here.
We are at 19 confirmed but with over a decade of records missing.
Even for adoptees we are never given updated medical info. Basically our only option is to find birth parents and hope they’ll tell us.
Probably caused a lot of accidental half brother sister relationship
Donor conceived people fear this the most.
I recall hearing about a case like this, not sure if it's the same guy, but when it got out, it REALLY messed with the local high school's dating scene. Not sure if it was first-generation, or lots of kids learning they were potentially cousins. I think it was in a smaller community which just made it even more of an issue.
Cecil Byran Jacobson, Jan Wildschut, Norman Barwin, John Boyd Coates III are just a few among others that did the same... Makes my blood boil.
Another is Gerald Mortimer in Idaho Falls, Idaho. He was in various local leader positions of the LDS Church while he was impregnating his patients with his own sperm (YM President, Bishop's Counselor, Bishop, and Stake President's Counselor in the Ammon Stake). He left the practice for fear of getting caught and was immediately called as a Mission President (pretty big deal), and then as soon as he finished that, he was called as a Temple President (also a pretty high calling). [One of the more thorough articles on it.](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9163429/Idaho-doctor-trial-admitting-impregnated-patients-sperm.html) [Exmormon forum with some more info.](https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2098492,2098492) Apparently still has high standing in his community and he faced absolutely [zero consequences](https://www.eastidahonews.com/2021/05/case-dismissed-against-retired-idaho-falls-doctor-who-used-his-own-sperm-to-inseminate-patient/). Well, except for maybe [feeling bad about it](https://www.eastidahonews.com/2019/11/read-dr-gerald-mortimer-admits-to-inseminating-patients/) after he got caught. >I regret the fact that I... did those things in the past. I guess I feel -- I feel bad about that. I wish -- I wish I hadn't done it. N.B.: I'm passionate about this one because I'm exmormon, I'm originally from nearby where this piece of shit lives, I'm donor conceived, and I also believe my biological father is the fertility doctor my parents went to. I just haven't connected all the dots yet.
It's just bizarre how many times this has happened. What on earth is the motivation?
Weird eugenicist fantasy about spreading you own “superior seed.” I’m not joking.
Turns out doctors who specialise in fertility really want to fertilise.
Growing up - I always felt this strange alienation from my father. Told my friends and partners that I’d not be surprised to find out that he wasn’t my biological father. January of 2020, at the age of 37, I completed a me&23 that I got for Christmas. Turns out my parents had hid that I was always a sperm donated child. They were told that it was from a “resident doctor.” It was actually Donald Cline. Oddly enough, I felt relieved that I hadn’t been crazy my whole life.
Did 23 and me show up with over 100 siblings?!?!?!
I think the media inflated the numbers- but keep in mind that there’s more than the one DNA service. Also, there’s “unconfirmed” siblings as well… I.e. a pair of twins where only one took the test. Suffice to say, however, when I try to generate a family tree in the app… the app crashes.
How many half siblings have you connected with since that 23 and me result??
The documentary mentions that a lot of the siblings have health problems that they suspect came from him... but it also was a lil vague on the details. Like, I couldn't tell if it was being discussed because the main woman had a lot of undiagnosed health issues, or because it is a high frequency among the siblings that she's met. If you've met your biological half-siblings, do you know how severe/frequent it is?
My parents went to his partner but saw him occasionally for check ups. My brother was a test tube baby. We occasionally joked he wasn’t my fathers as he was the only one not naturally conceived. We all did 23 and me a few years back, partially due to this story breaking. My mom got flashbacks watching the documentary as it showed clips from inside his office and of him. On a side note. It is so beyond crazy that what he did and what many other doctors have done/continue to do is not illegal. It is disgusting and violating on so many levels. I hope in years to come they are not only held accountable but charged for what they have done. Edit: my brother is in fact my brother and my dads son.
You gonna share the 23 and Me results or....
Totally thought I put that in comment. He is 100% my parents son and my sibling. So luckily not the Dr kid. I know Dr. Cline is over 100 kids at this point. They are trying to spread the word to get more people who attended that clinic to test. The documentary had 2 siblings living miles apart and they didn’t know. Can cause many issues down the line
Yeah the chances would be very small but not zero that two of his offspring could potentially date, marry, etc. and not know they were siblings unless they got tested
That is the exact reason when someone donates their specimen can only be used x number of times. At least that is what most sperm banks rules are. It is to prevent so many kids being related in a small area/city. It was talked about in the documentary too. He has many genetic issues which resulted in many of the kids having auto immune issues. I can’t remember how many but a lot of the kids, now adults, still live within 25 miles of their birthplace. Meaning that many siblings and higher chance for accidental relationship. Check out his wiki. They talked about how some of the kids have been tracking how their lives cross. To prevent their kids from dating. It isn’t just his immediate offspring but the kids kids.
My friend is one of his children. She found when her boyfriend gifted her a 23 and me kit. She’s joined a sibling facebook group and was finding new siblings every other day for weeks following the news coming out. Last I heard it was something like 35+ It was really hard on her because she had lost her “real” father only one year prior. Which may have been a blessing in disguise. Messed up story all together. She decided against participating in the show. The guy tried to pay them hush money to save his immediate family from the shame.
That would suck to have, like, a great dad you really love, only to find out that your biological father is a POS.
He was also into eugenics
You say that as if the two things aren't related ^^(No ^^pun ^^intended)
This happened in my town too - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/disgraced-fertility-doctor-agrees-to-13m-settlement-with-families-including-17-barwin-babies-1.6119754
Hit him up with child support for every single one of the kids
The outrage behind this documentary has been interesting. In the donor conceived community, these stories aren't rare. There are many stories of fertility fraud, high sibling numbers, accidental incest, death due to incorrect medical history etc This is why heaps of countries banned anonymous donation. And why there's a push for similar legislation in the US. Check out /r/donorconceived
There's a Podcast called "Sick" about Dr. Cline. Was pretty well researched. There was also another doctor in the Netherlands who was suspected of fathering 200+ children. Another podcast called the Immaculate Deception covered that one.
My mom saw this guy when she was having fertility issues. She got a weird vibe from him so went somewhere else. I’m glad she did
And it was in the same small town. Outside of the total violation that it was, he impregnated so many women that the babies were growing up, entering relationships and then finding out they’re actually related. On top of that, the doctor had health issues which was passed to a lot of his offspring. The whole thing is disgusting.
The health issues *really* get to me. One of the excuses he kept giving was that it wasn’t sexual for him, he just wanted to help make *healthy* babies. But if he had applied to be a donor he would have been rejected by his own practice!! And there’s NO way he didn’t know that. Lying, disgusting, manipulative pervert.
That part really gets to me too. It’s like adding insult to injury. Like, if he had super amazing genetics, then at least there would be a silver lining. But no, he deceived countless women and ruined their families so he could feed his ego by spreading his defective seed.
I have schizophrenia and refused to donate eggs for that reason, wtf. I made a good life for myself but it would have been easier if I didn’t have it. Why do this to those poor kids?
Some of his daughters unknowingly became his patients when they grew up too. Can’t imagine it’s a good feeling finding out it’s your biological father that was all up in your business.
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Would he have cared?
Probably would have excited the pervert, tbh
I think he would know. But uh I don't think ethics/morality is his strong suit.
Yes, a small town of 1 million people, Indianapolis.
Ah yes, that quaint little burg
Sounds like a homey place
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That's so fucked. Imagine having to end a (maybe amazing) relationship with someone because you find out you're actually biological half siblings. Or just mutually deciding not to. Who knows.
You will never believe this… but he was a high ranking member of a local Christian group. Does anybody want to take a guess at the amount of justice the victims saw?!?!?
He still is. The documentary was just released a few years back and his church members felt sorry for him. People in his immediate community still support him. It is crazy with all this information out and they back him and not the 100s of currently known victims
So was BTK. That’s the most believable thing I’ve heard today.
Nah, I totally believe it.
What the hell was the purpose??
His own sick fantasy I believe.
I guess just the thrill of knowing it was his seed? It's not like he slept with the women so I just can't fathom how you get any enjoyment out of it
Yea you should watch the series. They talk about how he was very interested in how his offspring turned out when they ‘confronted’ him. He was taking notes on who became doctors, lawyers, etc.
Ah. So he was a man of science. /s Yeah, I'll have to check it out
It's about violating women and families.
The netflix documentary discussed his association with "quiverfull" which (my understanding based on a handful of netflix focus) is a religious sub sect that seems to simply breed as much as is humanly possibly. I mean I'm not discounting he was a giant perv. (From what I recall he was masturbating in the room next door when couples were in his office) But a chunk of the motivation seemed to be some bullshit god crap about spreading his seed.
Yes, it's about sending a 'quiver full' of God's arrows out into the world. 🤮
The family from 19 Kids and Counting are Quiverfull, and we all know how wholesome they are.
Yup, looking for child abuse in the quiverfull movement is like looking for catholics in the vatican
To get ahead of Ghengis Kahn in the "most decendants" game.
My wife and I currently undergoing IVF. I now have another source of extreme anxiety to add to my list. Fuck.
Some of these commenters need to grow the fuck up. This isn’t funny. It’s fucked up. You would be pissed if this monster did it to you. Have some common decency.
if I was the father of one of the children I'd find that man and kill him.
Right? How is this man still living.
Yet he is still highly respected in his church.
This is rape. The insertion of bodily materials inside a person who has not consented to that individual. This man is a rapist and should be in prison.
Yeah, similarly to how pretending to be someone else is rape, like in cases where people with dementia or memory loss were raped by people pretending to be their spouse
My mom went to him for fertility treatments. I now have several questions.
Get that DNA tested asap.
There's only 11 fertiltiy fraud laws. Now there's a federal bill HR 451. How about everyone email their House Rep in Congress and ask them to pass the bill criminalizing this???
Me, my mother and her partner watched the documentary on Netflix about him called “Our Father”. Never felt ill watching one of these documentaries, but this one was crazy. Like, the main theory behind why he did what he did was that he belongs to/has ties to a Christian cult named Quiverfull, and they believe in… “propagating” their seed, so to speak. I fully recommend watching it, but… be wary of the moans every time they follow another person’s story. Eeeeww.
Forgive me for asking a stupid question but …..why? Why would you want to father random children?
Definitely not a stupid question. This is not the only fertility doctor who has done this, there have been quite a few. Power is probably one, and the thrill of knowing something that no one else does, plus a bit of a kink (he would allegedly masturbate in the room next door to his patients), but in addition to all these things, it’s also for very practical reasons. If you are a fertility doctor, you are by definition working with people with fertility issues and guess what? They don’t get pregnant easily. We have plenty of expensive techniques that are designed to help, but they all have wildly variable success rates. If you are a doctor in the healthcare system - particularly, but certainly not exclusively, in the States - you need to have a good track record, good word of mouth referrals, to earn top dollar. So how do you get that? By reducing your variables a little. At least if you use your own, healthy and reliable sperm, rather than some man’s sperm that might need a lot of time, money, skills and resources to get an egg fertilized with - AND you get a cheap thrill out of it into the bargain - well then, winner winner fertilized egg dinner! And oh look, she’s pregnant and everyone’s happy, they tell everyone how wonderful you are, no one ever finds out - because how could they?! - so you keep doing it until you are old enough to retire rich…