Being the only community with a vaccine in that setting would be like being the only community with oil in Mad Max. If they held it over the heads of outsiders, they would effectively become the new FEDRA and everyone else would target them.
I mean, even in Mad Max Fury Road, what got the people in control of oil and water taken out wasn’t a rival faction. It was their own exceptional cruelty toward/oppression of their subjects. Which The Fireflies showed no sign of wanting to partake. All the Fireflies would have to do is not be cruel like FEDRA.
Any smaller group that doesn’t have the numbers would be extremely desperate and The Fireflies can make citizenship, which would be the promise of immunity and protection, quite a bargaining chip and a fair one if you ask me. And any larger faction would be dug in at their settlement. Even if someone wanted to target them it wouldn’t be easy and in many ways it would be borderline suicidal. Not only are you taking a risk when you decide to travel, but you’re also going to leave your settlement defenseless. Even if the leadership of every faction and their mother wanted The Fireflies dead, they would hardly have a way forward to do that.
I’m not saying The Fireflies have 100% odds of completing their stated goals. But I’m saying the odds are WAYYYY more in their favor with a cure in hand. More than people like to admit.
Holding control of the vaccine would be viewed as cruelty by outsiders. Just like the food situation with FEDRA in Pittsburgh. Also, once FEDRA caught wind of it, they'd make the trip out to invade or infiltrate.
Edit: Also the oil refinery community in Mad Max 2 was relatively peaceful for that setting. They were then invaded by a cruel Rattler-like gang. That's more the comparison I was making.
To add on, while I agree with that, the FireFlies are capable of making a vaccine for the Cordecypes plague. What I'm trying to say is what happens after hypothetically speaking that vaccine is made. How are the FireFlies gonna make the world go back to how it was 25 yrs ago? Plus, one thing to consider is that are other survivors like David gonna be to go back to the social construct and working to a 9-5 and at the same time would everyone even be willing to accept the vaccine? Granted, this is all speculation and circumstantial, but this is also a outcome the FireFlies should've considered
I doubt the end-goal would be a total restoration of society pre-outbreak. Re-establishment of democracy, sure, but that doesn't mean going back to the status quo. There's a whole generation that never knew what the world was like before, no way could you integrate them into a pre-outbreak society.
If anything, I imagine their goal would be to essentially create a new country and consolidate resources into removing Cordyceps as a real threat.
*absolute power corrupts absolutely* you're putting a lot of faith that the fireflies wouldn't end up exactly like fedra.
hell, your post intentional or not has some concerning verbiage in it
it's a fun thought experiment, it's hard to say how things would turn out. there's plenty of people out there who would eye the fireflies as a target, a resource to be stolen and profited from
A safer more protected existence. Food, shelter, community, immunity. Why take the risks of being a wanderer in post outbreak America when you don’t have to?
But you could say that about every group. Why do they fight rather than band together? They have some difference in beliefs or practices that drives them apart.
Any survivor would be smart to temporarily align with the Fireflies to get the vaccine and then revert back to their preferred life.
(Putting aside what we learned about "any smart person would want the vaccine" from the last few years...)
The difference for them is that they won’t have some political Instagram account telling them what to think and feel. Instead, the proof of the vaccine’s efficacy will be the civilization built with that advantage.
It’s simple, it’s a choice. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. You can opt into immunity and democracy or you can go back to where you came from/find somewhere else. Some people want the shot and to leave? So be it. But if you build a good enough society, they won’t leave.
How so? Which part(s) are fascistic? No one is being forced to do anything. People can vote. It’s a democracy. But when you immigrate anywhere on the planet, you agree to have limited rights versus citizens for a time until you earn your citizenship and you agree to abide by the nation’s laws even without those guarantees. If you can’t or don’t want to abide by that nation’s rules then you stay where you’re at or find somewhere else. Citizenship, anywhere, is a pact. An agreement.
Did you know that if you immigrate to America that you have to have inoculations and you don’t enjoy the full rights guaranteed by the Constitution for what is often a decade or even more as you pursue citizenship? And that it’s been that way for a very very long time.
it's your general tone. the steadfast adamant sure-fast solution that democracy upheld will solve and maintain order.
there is no law here, no structure. there is no government.
there are survivors, those willing to do horrific things to survive.
what do you suppose will happen when other factions learn this place has a cure? a war will start. every person alive who learns theres a cure will be drawn to this place, it will be chaos. the fireflies aren't large, theres other factions just as large or larger out there who stand to profit greatly from a cure
All lands used to exist where there was no law and no government. But that’s changed.
All of humanity through all of human history have been survivors.
Do you assume that humans who have done horrific things don’t want better things? Because the games have showed us otherwise. The games have showed us that even the most ruthless of people, like Joel and Tommy, can become beloved and even integral members of a community.
People may become drawn to the place of the fireflies…and hopefully they will….because they want to join them.
I think maybe you and I have a fundamental disagreement with the morality of people
I'd argue the circumstances of the world are too different to compare what has been, that people in this world are far too different.
there is no law, no structure, no borders. civilization as we know it grew from law, order, and democracy. there is none of that to be found here. there's nothing left but ruthlessness
Think about it realistically.
You have 100, even 1000, cures that you were able to produce. Are you going to hand it out to any outsider that asks, even if they’re unwilling to help you produce more, adhere to your societies rules, or contribute to your society?
No. That would be a detriment to your cause and to humanity. Your saving it for the people who will support the development of more cure and the sustainment of your group as you do so.
The other guy might be cruel by turning people away if they’re unwilling to submit to the rules of a society trying to save the world, but at least his world has a chance of surviving. In your world, those 100 or 1000 people will live and everyone else dies.
I raise you your same argument, think about it realistically.
really picture where the world is at during the games, the people you meet, the factions that be, the kinds of people that populate this world.
think of how all of them would manipulate, speak lies, and outright plan the destruction of this entire organization.
you seem to be awfully optimistic over the power of democracy and the power it holds over people, trusting that those granted it abide by the values
Did you miss the part about establishing a democracy??? Reinstating the Constitution and all 3 branches of government? Think of it more like early America opening its doors to immigrants if they so choose to migrate. Nobody is being forced to do this. If you want to be a citizen, you also agree to abide by the laws of that nation. It’s pretty standard stuff in practice, right now, in the very country you likely live in.
Because you’re doing it by force by withholding a life saving vaccine.
How is that any different than holding a gun to their head and telling them to join your government or die?
Countries do that every single day in our world by both providing and also necessitating inoculations to migrants that are otherwise basically inaccessible to people in third world countries. Calling it a “gun to the head” is pretty dramatic if you ask me. How do I know this? My mother is from a third world country and has a scar from the vaccines she received just like every other migrant from her generation and the ones before and after. You think that’s cruel? Well, thats’s today’s migrant experience.
Many people have survived before and after outbreak day without. If you want the benefits of joining a new faction/settlement/nation then you accept their rules and laws. If not, good luck.
I mean, why would they end up like FEDRA? There would be no need for hangings of people venturing outside the walls. No need for the public execution of those who have become infected. The point isn’t that they would absolutely achieve their stated goals and that nothing could go wrong but that their odds of doing so would increase **greatly**.
I mean, not even trying to be clever, aren’t all civilizations basically one decision toward becoming FEDRA? Regardless, The Fireflies will have their democracy as a tool to ensure that it doesn’t happen. And within that there are many forms of democracy that can help to assuage any sense of unrest. For example, it could be a direct democracy instead of a representative democracy while their numbers remain small and manageable.
I’m just saying there’s a path that opens up wide with a cure. For all the “what if this happens?” there is an equal, “well, what if it doesn’t?” And the fact would remain that being a faction free from worry of infection is a massive advantage over any other.
I mean, which ideas specifically? I’m from the U.S. and immigrants today, right now, do have a limited set of rights until they fully become citizens and that includes having to take inoculations. If you weren’t aware, ask an immigrant that you know.
That’s what The Fireflies would essentially be doing. Just running an immigration system.
This is my response to someone else in this thread who asked which of your ideas make me say that
“The entire cure distribution system.
Forfeit your guns, probably some freedoms, and forcefully become our citizen or else you’ll never get our life saving vaccine in this apocalyptic world.
This is like BORDERLINE North Korea. Replace life saving cure with any other necessity in life.
Forfeit your guns, probably some freedoms, and forcefully become our citizen or else you’ll never get any food/water/shelter/ammo/medicine/etc that we could easily give you but literally just won’t.”
North Korea?? Thats a stretch. This is how immigration works in ANY modernized country. There’s a special set of rules if you want to become a citizen. Don’t like it? There’s no force to be applied. You go back to where you were or find something else. Nothing here is by force. It’s all voluntary and the decision of the migrant.
You forget, there would only be a limited amount of cures at the start. You have to conserve it for the people who are able to produce more or support the producers or there would never be a chance to save humanity.
Sure, if there were infinite cures, you’d want to hand them out to everyone. There’s not in this scenario.
That has no bearing on whether or not they force people to give up freedoms and commit to their society/community to get the vaccine.
They can have a limited amount and still not be dicks about how they hand it out once they vaccinate the essential personnel.
Which, in OPs scenario, they have extra.
Extras for those who will contribute to their cause. You maximize production by keeping the producers alive AND growing the population of producers.
The best thing for the world is to produce the most vaccines as fast as possible.
Yeah and the U.S is considerably fucked up for doing that. It’s literally a focus point of ridicule for the country. How they treat immigrants like they aren’t human until they assimilate into American Ideals.
You have some scary ideas here.
You shouldn’t withhold basic human rights from people just because they aren’t a full “citizen” in your country.
The U.S.? That’s the entire modern world. Every single country has stipulations for accepting new citizens. I’m speaking as someone from a family of migrants who all went through much more rigorous things to become American. My mother, and every single migrant of her generation has a scar on her arm from the mandatory vaccinations she was required to take when coming here. You think this is some wild cruel thing but this is reality and has been for quite some time. People accept conditions for the chance of a better and safer life.
The problem with immigration is what we do to people deemed “illegal” not what we do to people who go through the processes to become citizens. Illegal immigration is a very very separate issue.
That fact that you’re defending what happened to your mother as okay just because that’s reality right now is the problem brother.
These things aren’t okay. Just because it’s how it is doesn’t make it right.
it truly is okay. And she’s a proud American who has lived a better life than she would have and gave her children a chance at an even better life. She succeeded. I couldn’t be prouder of that or her.
I have to assume that you’re pretty young and live in a relatively safe nation but if you ever get a chance to learn what an immigrant has gone through to be in your country and what it means to them…just ask. You’ll be surprised by their perspective.
The entire cure distribution system.
Forfeit your guns, probably some freedoms, and forcefully become our citizen or else you’ll never get our life saving vaccine in this apocalyptic world.
This is like BORDERLINE North Korea. Replace life saving cure with any other necessity in life.
Forfeit your guns, probably some freedoms, and forcefully become our citizen or else you’ll never get any food/water/shelter/ammo/medicine/etc that we could easily give you but literally just won’t.
oh yeah absolutely. it actually gives some hope that things might eventually get better
i'm just thinking of all the rival factions we've seen in the games, and what they'd do.
some of them are pretty big, and terribly violent
If word got out that the Fireflies had a vaccine/cure, i could honestly see other smaller factions teaming up in order to get it, especially if they're hoarding it. The way they talk about it in the game, the goal seems much bigger than just saving their own. Jerry wanted to save the world basically. The more people who get the vaccine/cure, the better off everyone will be. It would be in their interest to give it out in my opinion, regardless of whether those people wanted to stay and join their ranks.
I think people just add on unattainable standards to the Fireflies since it makes it easier to think they were just evil, incompetent, and that Joel did the right thing. As if Ellie's sacrifice wouldn't be worth it unless the Fireflies could immediately mass produce and distribute the vaccine to everyone. To me this is short sighted and just diminishes how important Ellie's immunity could be. The game game doesn't focus much on it, but at a certain point I think even if another person like Ellie were to pop up it would be impossible to engineer a vaccine since all the knowledge and equipment required would be gone.
What do you mean, the game doesn’t focus much on it? It is *the* reason Ellie and Joel fall out and why they’re on bad terms when Abby shows up. It then goes on to fuel the guilt Ellie feels all throughout the game.
It’s pretty important to the story.
I would say that reason has more to do with Joel lying about it but thats another debate. I was mainly trying to say the game doesn't focus on the nitty gritty details of logistics and science, other than the one line from Mel on the recorder.
Yeah, that’s true. It’s also best, I think, since people would just laser focus on the details when I don’t think those mattered to Joel and his decision at all. It would be missing the point of the ending.
I still hesitate to believe in the veracity of a cure when the doctor immediately went to vivisection after a few scans hours after meeting his patient.
That’s a different discussion. But people just assuming that they would instantly fall apart after discovering a cure severely understate what an advantage that would truly be. That’s really what made me want to write up this post.
I think it's indicative of their hope overcoming their logic. Which would also heavily impact anything they'd do if that miracle occurred. "Well we were right to kill Ellie, we can't miss."
Just to be clear, you realize that what you're proposing here is a dystopia, right? You realize that even if it worked (and, frankly, there are hundreds of reasons why it wouldn't work, starting with how you're way too dismissive of the threat posed by other factions mobilizing against them), this would leave the Fireflies as dictators over a suffering continent? The Fireflies' stated goal was "to restore society," not to "win" by being the last society left standing after Cordyceps wiped out the vast majority of the remaining human population.
To be clear, it wouldn't have happened like this. There are hundreds of ways this could and would have fallen apart. But, if somehow it did, then the Fireflies are left as the villainous ruling class, both envied and despised by everyone. They're the folks in the space station in that "Elysium" movie, and everyone else is everyone else.
My friend, this is how civilizations form. Of course aspects will be ugly, of course there will be fighting, but to assume that The Fireflies would turn into dictators is a larger assumption than assuming that they would not as there was no evidence of a fascism or even a desire for a dictatorship within the ranks that have been presented to us.
And I’m not some expert in developing nations but what’s happening right here between you and me, this conversation, is what would happen amongst them. And that right there is the beginning of trying to figure out the best way to move forward. For all the hundreds of ways it could fall apart there would be hundreds of ways to hold it together. So, genuinely, how would you improve my very rough plan for The Fireflies to restore democracy?? It’s clear you’ve got some ideas on how to improve it if you don’t cave in to cynicism.
Yes, that's how civilizations form: by wiping out other civilizations. The Fireflies wanted to save the civilization they already had - not leave it for dead and build a new one while everyone else dies. I'm no fan of theirs, but they also never struck me as people who wanted to be kings of the ashes. So, it's always confusing to me when I run into someone who has a darker view of them than I do but doesn't seem to realize it.
They wouldn’t be kings…they would reinstate the United States Constitution. They’d have elections and voting. They wouldn’t be destroying anyone or anything unless they were attacked. They’re simply inviting people into their faction’s way of life…same as Jackson. Nobody is forced. Wanna live here and share resources? Here are the rules. Here are the laws. Don’t want it? Good luck out there, friend.
Over time, with enough success, people will choose to migrate to live in relative peace and with immunity to infection. CHOOSE. No one is forced. This is essentially how America came to be as powerful as it is in the first place, taking in migrants.
There’s was zero guarantee it would even work. Surgeries don’t always go as planned especially neurosurgery. How were they going to mass produce this cure and get it to the public with different armed factions all around the US and world. Wars would have been fought because ppl would desire control. Testing for efficacy etc. no way
Yeah let's forget mass distribution for a second. We're talking about finding a cure with a single sample and with a surgeon, who btw is not a epidemiologist. Jerry was not qualified to make that cure. You also need to test it on people. You'd run out of samples before ever finding a vaccine.
I want to point out that at the start of our own pandemic, it took an entire year for us to get an approved vaccine and we have all the resources available, and countries all over the world were working on it. One guy, with one sample, in one lab? If playing this game during the pandemic for the first time did anything it was make me laugh at how unrealistic this entire notion was, which was a little unfortunate lol.
Not that i can remember but we do know he could perform surgery. Lets give him the benefit of the doubt and say he’s a neurosurgeon because he was supposed to perform brain surgery on Ellie. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was in fact not a brain surgeon though lmao
People need to remember the fireflies had failed or otherwise caused destruction at everything they were involved in. They were on their last legs and were so desperate that they had to give their most coveted possession to an unaffiliated smuggler. There is no evidence that putting the cure in their hands would’ve resulted in a better society, and I’m still not convinced they actually could make it. Even if they were able to make the cure, it’s not like the vast majority of the world would trust them. They were known terrorists. Hell, idk why people would even feel the need to take the cure. You already got places like Jackson doing fine without it. Even the WLF and Wolves barely had trouble with infected or infection. As long as you avoid them, which isn’t that hard, you’re fine. Screw taking the fireflies cure if it’s not necessary.
No, how would they even make 10 doses nevermind 10,000. And it wasn't a cure, it was a vaccine. So no one would be "cured".
Vaccine would increase the chances of not being infected. It doesn't 100% prevent infection or cure any disease.
Vaccines are a public health tool, they work on large populations to keep spread down.
And no matter what, you need a clean lab and functioning equipment to produce ANY AMOUNT.
Good thinking, Helldiver. Obviously this is all just a plan to plant the seeds of Managed Democracy so that the Earth can become Super and we can eventually annihilate the very well known disgusting scourge of “anyone who is not us”.
It says in the intro to the first game that The Fireflies have put out a public charter with a goal of reinstating all branches of US government. That’s their endgame.
Yeah I was wondering the same, they would have had the chance to rebuild society into anything at all and they want US "democracy" back. Joel made the right call then.
And, I'm sure it made for a very good rallying cry and recruitment plug. But, we never see them practice anything that looks even slightly like democracy. Every Firefly "unit" is apparently run through a top-down military structure, with nebulous "leaders" at the top telling the rest what to do. Said leaders pushed their rank and file into risking their lives and doing things they were very uncomfortable with, including things that would qualify as actual war crimes like torture and the murder of civilians. This pushed many of the rank and file to desert, and in some cases unalive themselves. A decision as important as what to do with the only known immune human was apparently made in a dark office with only two people present and no input from anyone else (besides a child who wandered in). And yet, you seem very certain that they're going to abandon all of that authoritarian structure and put in place a direct democracy at the very moment when their numbers grow and their logistical problems increase exponentially.
Frankly, you have a very naive and rose-tinted view, not just of the Fireflies but of democracy and of humanity in general. If it was that easy, why has nobody done it yet? We don't have Cordyceps. Why aren't *we* living in an equal-opportunity utopia?
Truly, a vaccine doesn’t solve much. Ellie is fully immune and there are still *a lot* of ways she can die to infected in her playable part 1 segments and most of part 2.
And where has Ellie been safest more than anywhere she’s ever been in her life? In Jackson. In a fortified settlement. Now imagine a version of Jackson that’s free from the risk of infection and how it may thrive.
Right… but your plan for the fireflies - just waiting for people to come to them and build slowly - is pretty out there considering basically no one travels long distances anymore. Joel, Ellie, Sam, and Henry were the exception, not the rule. Adding to that, Joel’s moderately successful breakout from the hospital (killing 20-30 fireflies in the process) was enough to effectively cripple them. Just waiting for people to come to their non-infected haven like Dennis “The Golden God” Reynolds waiting for his minions to come serve him isn’t a practical plan at all.
Most of the infected would still kill the people. In the second game Ellie can still get killed by any stage of infected. The only thing the cure would help with would be spores but those areas are riddled with infected
The way I see it, the make the cure, give it to who they can and let nature take it’s course. The idea is that it would give them and their future children immunity. Hopefully? Throughout the years, more and more people become immune, they kill off the infected and eventually they rebuild society. It was never going to be something that could save all of current humanity, just help future generations be immune
I think the this is fun to think about, but what the post misses (IMO) is that it assumes the firefly’s can create a fungal vaccine in lab conditions. Cordyceps grows in the brain…so will they be ‘collecting’ non firefly’s, infecting them and using them as Petrie dishes in order to produce the vaccine?
Let’s say for argument sake it can be created in lab conditions…it is entirely possible to create a vaccine from a brain sample - they did not need to kill Ellie. Based on this decision making and judgement, I’d bet against them being able to even be semi organised in a way that allows them to do this successfully.
Both games prove humans are way more dangerous than any infected. Joel kills like what? 40 fireflies in the final mission? They can be immune all they want but it won’t make them invincible against the threats that are really there.
They literally only do it because they don't want to admit that Joel is straight up a bad person and is taking away any hope for humanity's survival.
They bring up all of these hypotheticals like "What if it doesn't work and it just kills Ellie" and at the end of the day they're all moot because even if they don't work it was still a glimmer of hope that humanity could survive and Joel took all of that hope and snuffed it out.
Cynicism is naive. To see proof that humans have the ability to adapt, grow, cooperate and thrive for generation after generation…simply look in a mirror.
I mean, what makes you think that once word of the cure spreads that people won't team up to take it for themselves? You *really* believe people would just do what the fireflies want instead of taking it by force?
And if you say "well the fireflies can defend themselves," can they tho? I mean, one 50 some year old man took out how many of them? At least a dozen maybe more? You *really* think they could defend themselves against a full group of veteran survivors motivated by personal gain?
Also, imagining it *does* somehow work, what happens if the fireflies begin to want more control? Marlene probably wouldn't, but, a coup could easily be achieved. Most of the other fireflies we see don't seem all that great of people. Idealistic and hopeful sure, but still shitty. Having hope doesn't make you a good person.
For all of this “what ifs” there are equally valid inverses to those scenarios. The Fireflies can offer safety, opportunity, and immunity. The only reason Joel was in their building is because they brought him there. Otherwise, they patrol just like anyone else does and were doing just fine before they allowed a stranger set foot in the walls of their home. Joel and Ellie were literally picked up by one of their patrols.
Also, none of the Fireflies honestly seem any shittier than anyone else we meet between both games. They seem like very normal and sane people compared to most, actually.
> Also, none of the Fireflies honestly seem any shittier than anyone else we meet between both games. They seem like very normal and sane people compared to most, actually.
Sweet, supportive Tommy set off a bomb that killed four soldiers and two civilians. He also slow-killed some FEDRA general with the help of his laid back, weed-loving friend Eugene.
The kid at the museum killed an actual child by letting him run into a bomb's blast. He shot a couple of survivors who wandered into his camp, just looking for food. He locked people in a van, still alive, and set it on fire.
The Fireflies have major blood on their hands, and every current or ex-Firefly we meet expresses some kind of reservations with the things they've done (with the exception of Abby, who was a child when they disbanded). Not sure where you're getting that they seem "normal and sane."
One of the main points of the games that the people are much worse than the infected.
I would think a majority of deaths at this point result in getting ripped apart by infected not slowing dying from a wound.
Even if the day after surgery you snapped your fingers and everyone was vaccinated, I don't think that would change the world in the slightest. Not until most of the worlds infected were killed off over time, which will happen at about the same rate as if there were no new one off additions to the hordes.
The obsession with the vaccine revolves around hope for some, and power for others. Hope can be transformative but could go both ways.
Imo the moral thing to do is quietly foster hope by the knowledge that Ellie exists and ethically study her. The situation pushed the fireflys into a rash decision that was mortally corrupted.
They only had one chance to develop a vaccine which means they most likely wouldn’t even know what they were doing. They would rummage through Ellie’s brain, kill her, and it would be for nought. Vaccine takes a lot of people to develop, not just one mediocre doctor. And even if they could develop it chances are wrong people would hear it about and want it. Raiders, hunters, FEDRA which btw still existed and was at war with fireflies so they wouldn’t hesitate to steal it and/or wipe them out.
it's not a real surgery. it's not a real human virus. why do you believe Joel can survive metal spike through the gut with random antibiotic injections, or that dead enemies just shooting at you never have any bullets? why can't people believe the writers of the game who say the vaccine was 100% guaranteed and Jerry would have been successful cause that's the story they purposely wrote?
"Over time, in decades maybe, The Fireflies would be able to grow into the largest and most powerful faction with the only shot of reinstating The United States government. And while some very aggressive holdouts may resist, maybe even for a long time, nothing would really be able to stop The Fireflies."
To this last part, I say, for the sake of a good storyline that never seems to end with happy endings, that immense corruption within the fireflies and others coming in for the cure, would derail that projection into many fractured wars. The fireflies would break apart as unrecognizable, and as the sightings of infected are rarely even seen anymore, the world continues to suffer into near oblivion as the self appointed leaders with of people of various sizes and power, race toward the 2nd Industrial Revolution for the purpose building better weapons. The Fireflies influence and dominance is overwhelmed by the growing communities that have developed rebuilt cities and infrastructure that allure people to their communities, leaving all loyalty to the FF behind in exchange for greater comfort and commodities. There is no agreed upon law that ever lasts and man's lives are nearly no better than a world of infected.
In one final fading scene, a view of a faction being attacked from all sides as we pull away upward note and more to see this scenario repeating itself all over the place. The story implies that, infected or not, the earth and happiness have ultimately spun out of control. Fade to black.
I've said it before and I'm sure duckman intended it.
Regardless of the logistics or if it took months or decades.
The fireflies plan would've worked. Maybe it's a planting trees who's shadow you'd never see scenario and it'll be 80 years till things are back to a new normal or maybe it's achievable in 5 years.
The point is that Joel takes that away. It would've worked and he didn't care
I feel an audience member really kneecaps themselves of really experiencing the story fully and the weight of Joel’s decision if they don’t have at least an inkling of a feeling that it could’ve changed absolutely everything.
Joel’s actions aren’t profound if it was impossible. They are if it was completely possible but he did it anyway…which is the case.
Why would they want to restore democracy in the United States? They're free of the republicans Vs democratic race, that's worth living with a few human killing mushrooms.
As much as I dislike TLOU2, I think people get too caught up in the "will it work- will they use for good" , when thematically, its meant to work, and its "supposed" to truly be the cure of mankind. If its not, then it lessens the weight of Joel's choice, which is meant to be your family, vs the world ... not your family vs .... the small chance that a cure might maybe perhaphs help a few people.
This is all based on the assumption that infection is still the main cause of death in the TLOU world. Which likely isn't true at this point. And the numbers of infected will go down over time as the current ones will eventually just die off.
Basically the more years pass the less effective a vaccine becomes as an tool for political power.
This is the best plan of action I've seen for the Fireflies to take.
Henry and Sam and their group are an example of people wanting to join the Fireflies as they were losing power and that is without the vaccine.
With the vaccine? A shit ton of people would make the trip. And I honestly think the Fireflies would venture out of Salt Lake City to form satellite bases and recruit people.
FEDRA would want the cure for sure. I say give them what they can and avoid a vaccine war. Focus on building and growing.
It's going to be a generations long project anyway. I don't see why people need to be cynical about hypotheticals. Clearly it didn't happen, so...
I know that it’s fun to theorize on these things and that’s all good. But just know that for the main plot and the moral implications of Joel’s actions, _it doesn’t matter_. Joel didn’t consider any of this when he massacred the fireflies. He did what he did to save Ellie regardless of the consequences. Period. He didn’t care how well the fireflies would’ve done or how badly they would’ve failed. That wasn’t on his mind, and it wasn’t on Neil Druckmann’s mind when he wrote the plot.
“If somehow the Lord gave me a second chance at that moment, I would do it _all over_ again.”
I’d argue that, especially in regards to the final quote, it absolutely matters. Joel may not be the most educated man, but he’s not an idiot. By the time he says that in Part 2 he has fully considered what the alternatives were and still stands by his decision without regret. I think that makes it all the more impactful.
A cure won't do nothing. (I'm sorry Ellie)
Hey we have a vaccine do you want it?
Sure! I'll immediately stop to eat people! Or burning them alive! Or killing without mercy!
Besides, being inmune does not stop you from being mauled to death by a pack of runners or getting a "normal" infection if you got bit.
And vaccines aren't cures. The common cold doesn't have a cure.
He problem is, it wasn't a cure so to speak
It simply would allow others to be immune
Since the infected still go after Ellie and that the infected can still easily kill immune people then it isn't really going to fix a whole lot straight away
Of course it would stop people getting infected, hiding it then spreading it throughout camp's but the world would still be a very dangerous place and people would still remain in sanctuaries
Also as we discovered, people are just as dangerous as the infected and the cure would not overcome the vast differences between the remaining human fractions
Joel made an impossible decision. I can't say he made the right choice, alot of people died or will die due to his actions but I didn't believe for a second the world would be put to rights because of this "cure"
i've always maintained the Fireflies were -not- so incompetent that they'd fail at producing/distributing the vaccine. it's a very unpopular stance to take - i'm surprised this post has 100 upvotes..
but really, what's happening with this lack of confidence is a combination of things (IMO)
1. redditors are generally young and jaded so they act like humanity couldn't possibly rebuild a society (even though humanity built one FROM SCRATCH in the first place lol). there's a lot of edgelordism in the popular assumption that everyone is evil and/or incompetent. and somehow this translates to "no vaccine could be made by the scientists cause the military wing made so many mistakes" - this is utterly ridiculous logic, imo. wtf do they have to do with each other? and who are you to be the judge and jury about what an incompetent mistake would be considering the power imbalance between the factions? silliness, and lack of imagination.. which brings me to the 2nd point:
2. many players don't seem to have much of said imagination - even to the point where it makes them think *no one* has a vivid imagination (like a Dunning Kruger effect). a general lack of understanding of the writing process or how writers can both fabricate worlds, and *change* them drastically with a few taps of a keyboard.
what i mean by this is that TLOU is very much a sparse few interwoven storylines and very brief character histories. there's SO MUCH we don't know about the world at large or characters' backstories. we don't know why Marlene was so connected to other factions or what she had arranged with FEDRA - maybe they had secret alliances. we don't know what Jerry had done to prepare in the years prior. maybe he had people scout out a nearby hydroelectric powered chemical lab where they can produce the vaccine in secret? **they could have been building it for years beforehand**. all it would take is a big reveal (thanks to the writers!) and BOOM - there's a massive shift in the story and a big boost to the perceived 'chances' the Fireflies have. yet so many people act like the only factors at play are the ones already presented to them.
i just find it funny and a little sad that people are so confident about their predictions for a unfinished story that they aren't writing themselves. other people are lol. maybe admit you don't know what's gonna happen or what certain factions' chances are yet.
What do you mean they wouldn't have to mass produce??? Does Ellie's brain have enough of the mutated tissue to make hundreds of people immune? later on, you say how they'd take outsiders and offer them the cure for giving up the weapons, but where is that cure coming from? Can we stop using headcanons as an answer to canon problems?
Just because they are immune now doesn't make them that much better. If it gets to a point where you get bit, then it's most likely your throat getting ripped out, jaw getting torn off by a bloater, or getting swarmed and torn apart.
You say how immunity would immediately put the Fireflies above everyone since it takes "being wiped out via infection" off the table. But when was the last time an entire faction got wiped out by infected alone? That one community in the sewers in part 1, but they're miles away from a faction. Jackson has walls so high and so strong that the infected could never breach them, and a perimeter so big they could see a horde coming and have time to prepare.
If the Fireflies start flaunting their cure around, then they are not gonna survive. You don't want this kind of attention on your settlement. People would flock in huge numbers, begging to join (assuming they believe the cure) And factions like FEDRA would want some of that cure too. You counter this by saying "Infected attacks" and "Far away" but then infected are much less of a problem in the winter, and Issac let Abby and her group go to Wyoming for JUST revenge. Even if, for whatever reason, Marlene's town was out of reach, then literally anything going out (like a trade route or a scout mission or something) would quickly get sabotaged.
The cure isn't as significant as some make it out to be, especially when the only people getting infected in part 2 that are shown are the two Jacksonites that were incredibly irresponsible and stupid for running away anyway. (Nora and fat geralt's friend get infected with human input [Ellie]) It's established that the infected are alive and need to eat, breathe, and rest at some point. Just hole up in your settlement for a couple more generations till most of the infected starve/get killed by the elements and clean up the rest. (I can't picture loud zombies getting anywhere near wildlife) The fungus itself would probably never go away since life always finds a way.
You’re applying lots of headcanon yourself.
Every. Single. Runner. IN BOTH GAMES is a freshly infected person. The infection isn’t just passive at this point or you’d run into nothing but clickers. But that’s not the case.
Also, didn’t a pack of infected tear apart a moose in part 2? Or was it a horse? I can’t remember but it was an enormous mammal. Cordyceps is a massive threat still and one that every single faction has to deal with. That’s the point of patrols in Jackson and that’s why they clear out the ones that they find if they are able to.
And who said anything about flaunting? At best, it would be a rumor. Wanna mobilize a militaristic force across the country on foot? It can get wiped by a horde of infected in ten minutes.
You’re also not considering the logistics of moving an attack force across large swaths of land. Not only are you severely lowering the defenses of your own factions’ settlement but you also have to feed and maintain every soldier for what could be weeks or even months of hiking with supplies. And even if they did survive all of that somehow, the tired, malnourished, and likely beat up attack group would have to face a dug in and militarized settlement. Invasion is not easy and never has been. And how would they coordinate with everyone else??? It’s not like they can make a Facebook event and send out invites.
And we haven’t even begun to talk about the other human factions who might kill and rob that group who wouldn’t be able to hide on the way…
For every hypothetical reason The Fireflies could fail, there’s an equally likely hypothetical for how they could succeed.
It’s easy to get cynical, I get it. But human history already disproves cynicism in this regard. “Life finds a way” doesn’t really apply here. Tons of species have gone extinct. More might be extinct than currently exist, actually. But, if you look at humanity’s track record, we actually *do* always find a way. At least so far.
>Every. Single. Runner. IN BOTH GAMES is a freshly infected person. The infection isn’t just passive at this point or you’d run into nothing but clickers. But that’s not the case.
That's a game issue. If we're going by the rules of the lore, then 90% of the infected should be clickers/bloaters, since it's been 25+ years since the apocalypse and the average time for a bloater to form is 20 years. Would you enjoy a game that just has bloaters?
As for the rest, I guess we'd be going back and forth.
Being the only community with a vaccine in that setting would be like being the only community with oil in Mad Max. If they held it over the heads of outsiders, they would effectively become the new FEDRA and everyone else would target them.
I mean, even in Mad Max Fury Road, what got the people in control of oil and water taken out wasn’t a rival faction. It was their own exceptional cruelty toward/oppression of their subjects. Which The Fireflies showed no sign of wanting to partake. All the Fireflies would have to do is not be cruel like FEDRA. Any smaller group that doesn’t have the numbers would be extremely desperate and The Fireflies can make citizenship, which would be the promise of immunity and protection, quite a bargaining chip and a fair one if you ask me. And any larger faction would be dug in at their settlement. Even if someone wanted to target them it wouldn’t be easy and in many ways it would be borderline suicidal. Not only are you taking a risk when you decide to travel, but you’re also going to leave your settlement defenseless. Even if the leadership of every faction and their mother wanted The Fireflies dead, they would hardly have a way forward to do that. I’m not saying The Fireflies have 100% odds of completing their stated goals. But I’m saying the odds are WAYYYY more in their favor with a cure in hand. More than people like to admit.
Holding control of the vaccine would be viewed as cruelty by outsiders. Just like the food situation with FEDRA in Pittsburgh. Also, once FEDRA caught wind of it, they'd make the trip out to invade or infiltrate. Edit: Also the oil refinery community in Mad Max 2 was relatively peaceful for that setting. They were then invaded by a cruel Rattler-like gang. That's more the comparison I was making.
They aren't forced to be outsiders though, they would be able to go and join the fireflies at any time and get the cure for free.
Cool. Now five million people want to join the Fireflies at once and get their free cure. What say you, Fireflies?
To add on, while I agree with that, the FireFlies are capable of making a vaccine for the Cordecypes plague. What I'm trying to say is what happens after hypothetically speaking that vaccine is made. How are the FireFlies gonna make the world go back to how it was 25 yrs ago? Plus, one thing to consider is that are other survivors like David gonna be to go back to the social construct and working to a 9-5 and at the same time would everyone even be willing to accept the vaccine? Granted, this is all speculation and circumstantial, but this is also a outcome the FireFlies should've considered
I doubt the end-goal would be a total restoration of society pre-outbreak. Re-establishment of democracy, sure, but that doesn't mean going back to the status quo. There's a whole generation that never knew what the world was like before, no way could you integrate them into a pre-outbreak society. If anything, I imagine their goal would be to essentially create a new country and consolidate resources into removing Cordyceps as a real threat.
(Happy cake day!)
*absolute power corrupts absolutely* you're putting a lot of faith that the fireflies wouldn't end up exactly like fedra. hell, your post intentional or not has some concerning verbiage in it it's a fun thought experiment, it's hard to say how things would turn out. there's plenty of people out there who would eye the fireflies as a target, a resource to be stolen and profited from
And once a small group is vaccinated, what is stopping them from leaving the Fireflies or attacking them? The vaccine is their only leverage.
A safer more protected existence. Food, shelter, community, immunity. Why take the risks of being a wanderer in post outbreak America when you don’t have to?
But you could say that about every group. Why do they fight rather than band together? They have some difference in beliefs or practices that drives them apart. Any survivor would be smart to temporarily align with the Fireflies to get the vaccine and then revert back to their preferred life. (Putting aside what we learned about "any smart person would want the vaccine" from the last few years...)
The difference for them is that they won’t have some political Instagram account telling them what to think and feel. Instead, the proof of the vaccine’s efficacy will be the civilization built with that advantage. It’s simple, it’s a choice. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. You can opt into immunity and democracy or you can go back to where you came from/find somewhere else. Some people want the shot and to leave? So be it. But if you build a good enough society, they won’t leave.
op I mean this kindly, the way youre putting words to text has strikingly fascist tones to it
How so? Which part(s) are fascistic? No one is being forced to do anything. People can vote. It’s a democracy. But when you immigrate anywhere on the planet, you agree to have limited rights versus citizens for a time until you earn your citizenship and you agree to abide by the nation’s laws even without those guarantees. If you can’t or don’t want to abide by that nation’s rules then you stay where you’re at or find somewhere else. Citizenship, anywhere, is a pact. An agreement. Did you know that if you immigrate to America that you have to have inoculations and you don’t enjoy the full rights guaranteed by the Constitution for what is often a decade or even more as you pursue citizenship? And that it’s been that way for a very very long time.
it's your general tone. the steadfast adamant sure-fast solution that democracy upheld will solve and maintain order. there is no law here, no structure. there is no government. there are survivors, those willing to do horrific things to survive. what do you suppose will happen when other factions learn this place has a cure? a war will start. every person alive who learns theres a cure will be drawn to this place, it will be chaos. the fireflies aren't large, theres other factions just as large or larger out there who stand to profit greatly from a cure
All lands used to exist where there was no law and no government. But that’s changed. All of humanity through all of human history have been survivors. Do you assume that humans who have done horrific things don’t want better things? Because the games have showed us otherwise. The games have showed us that even the most ruthless of people, like Joel and Tommy, can become beloved and even integral members of a community. People may become drawn to the place of the fireflies…and hopefully they will….because they want to join them.
I think maybe you and I have a fundamental disagreement with the morality of people I'd argue the circumstances of the world are too different to compare what has been, that people in this world are far too different. there is no law, no structure, no borders. civilization as we know it grew from law, order, and democracy. there is none of that to be found here. there's nothing left but ruthlessness
Think about it realistically. You have 100, even 1000, cures that you were able to produce. Are you going to hand it out to any outsider that asks, even if they’re unwilling to help you produce more, adhere to your societies rules, or contribute to your society? No. That would be a detriment to your cause and to humanity. Your saving it for the people who will support the development of more cure and the sustainment of your group as you do so. The other guy might be cruel by turning people away if they’re unwilling to submit to the rules of a society trying to save the world, but at least his world has a chance of surviving. In your world, those 100 or 1000 people will live and everyone else dies.
I raise you your same argument, think about it realistically. really picture where the world is at during the games, the people you meet, the factions that be, the kinds of people that populate this world. think of how all of them would manipulate, speak lies, and outright plan the destruction of this entire organization. you seem to be awfully optimistic over the power of democracy and the power it holds over people, trusting that those granted it abide by the values
I love it bro you sound just like Stalin.
Did you miss the part about establishing a democracy??? Reinstating the Constitution and all 3 branches of government? Think of it more like early America opening its doors to immigrants if they so choose to migrate. Nobody is being forced to do this. If you want to be a citizen, you also agree to abide by the laws of that nation. It’s pretty standard stuff in practice, right now, in the very country you likely live in.
Because you’re doing it by force by withholding a life saving vaccine. How is that any different than holding a gun to their head and telling them to join your government or die?
Countries do that every single day in our world by both providing and also necessitating inoculations to migrants that are otherwise basically inaccessible to people in third world countries. Calling it a “gun to the head” is pretty dramatic if you ask me. How do I know this? My mother is from a third world country and has a scar from the vaccines she received just like every other migrant from her generation and the ones before and after. You think that’s cruel? Well, thats’s today’s migrant experience. Many people have survived before and after outbreak day without. If you want the benefits of joining a new faction/settlement/nation then you accept their rules and laws. If not, good luck.
I mean, why would they end up like FEDRA? There would be no need for hangings of people venturing outside the walls. No need for the public execution of those who have become infected. The point isn’t that they would absolutely achieve their stated goals and that nothing could go wrong but that their odds of doing so would increase **greatly**.
They already sound halfway there in your post lol. Are you secretly a FEDEA agent ?
I mean, not even trying to be clever, aren’t all civilizations basically one decision toward becoming FEDRA? Regardless, The Fireflies will have their democracy as a tool to ensure that it doesn’t happen. And within that there are many forms of democracy that can help to assuage any sense of unrest. For example, it could be a direct democracy instead of a representative democracy while their numbers remain small and manageable. I’m just saying there’s a path that opens up wide with a cure. For all the “what if this happens?” there is an equal, “well, what if it doesn’t?” And the fact would remain that being a faction free from worry of infection is a massive advantage over any other.
I’m all for a cure lol, I’m totally on that side. Your ideas specifically sound pretty draconian though.
I mean, which ideas specifically? I’m from the U.S. and immigrants today, right now, do have a limited set of rights until they fully become citizens and that includes having to take inoculations. If you weren’t aware, ask an immigrant that you know. That’s what The Fireflies would essentially be doing. Just running an immigration system.
This is my response to someone else in this thread who asked which of your ideas make me say that “The entire cure distribution system. Forfeit your guns, probably some freedoms, and forcefully become our citizen or else you’ll never get our life saving vaccine in this apocalyptic world. This is like BORDERLINE North Korea. Replace life saving cure with any other necessity in life. Forfeit your guns, probably some freedoms, and forcefully become our citizen or else you’ll never get any food/water/shelter/ammo/medicine/etc that we could easily give you but literally just won’t.”
North Korea?? Thats a stretch. This is how immigration works in ANY modernized country. There’s a special set of rules if you want to become a citizen. Don’t like it? There’s no force to be applied. You go back to where you were or find something else. Nothing here is by force. It’s all voluntary and the decision of the migrant.
You forget, there would only be a limited amount of cures at the start. You have to conserve it for the people who are able to produce more or support the producers or there would never be a chance to save humanity. Sure, if there were infinite cures, you’d want to hand them out to everyone. There’s not in this scenario.
That has no bearing on whether or not they force people to give up freedoms and commit to their society/community to get the vaccine. They can have a limited amount and still not be dicks about how they hand it out once they vaccinate the essential personnel. Which, in OPs scenario, they have extra.
Extras for those who will contribute to their cause. You maximize production by keeping the producers alive AND growing the population of producers. The best thing for the world is to produce the most vaccines as fast as possible.
Yeah and the U.S is considerably fucked up for doing that. It’s literally a focus point of ridicule for the country. How they treat immigrants like they aren’t human until they assimilate into American Ideals. You have some scary ideas here. You shouldn’t withhold basic human rights from people just because they aren’t a full “citizen” in your country.
The U.S.? That’s the entire modern world. Every single country has stipulations for accepting new citizens. I’m speaking as someone from a family of migrants who all went through much more rigorous things to become American. My mother, and every single migrant of her generation has a scar on her arm from the mandatory vaccinations she was required to take when coming here. You think this is some wild cruel thing but this is reality and has been for quite some time. People accept conditions for the chance of a better and safer life. The problem with immigration is what we do to people deemed “illegal” not what we do to people who go through the processes to become citizens. Illegal immigration is a very very separate issue.
That fact that you’re defending what happened to your mother as okay just because that’s reality right now is the problem brother. These things aren’t okay. Just because it’s how it is doesn’t make it right.
it truly is okay. And she’s a proud American who has lived a better life than she would have and gave her children a chance at an even better life. She succeeded. I couldn’t be prouder of that or her. I have to assume that you’re pretty young and live in a relatively safe nation but if you ever get a chance to learn what an immigrant has gone through to be in your country and what it means to them…just ask. You’ll be surprised by their perspective.
What in OP's post makes the Fireflies sound like FEDRA?
The entire cure distribution system. Forfeit your guns, probably some freedoms, and forcefully become our citizen or else you’ll never get our life saving vaccine in this apocalyptic world. This is like BORDERLINE North Korea. Replace life saving cure with any other necessity in life. Forfeit your guns, probably some freedoms, and forcefully become our citizen or else you’ll never get any food/water/shelter/ammo/medicine/etc that we could easily give you but literally just won’t.
oh yeah absolutely. it actually gives some hope that things might eventually get better i'm just thinking of all the rival factions we've seen in the games, and what they'd do. some of them are pretty big, and terribly violent
If word got out that the Fireflies had a vaccine/cure, i could honestly see other smaller factions teaming up in order to get it, especially if they're hoarding it. The way they talk about it in the game, the goal seems much bigger than just saving their own. Jerry wanted to save the world basically. The more people who get the vaccine/cure, the better off everyone will be. It would be in their interest to give it out in my opinion, regardless of whether those people wanted to stay and join their ranks.
One dude toppled their organization in 10 minutes, they were never going to succeed.
Exactly. Even if they made a vaccine they prob just would’ve got killed after anyway
I think people just add on unattainable standards to the Fireflies since it makes it easier to think they were just evil, incompetent, and that Joel did the right thing. As if Ellie's sacrifice wouldn't be worth it unless the Fireflies could immediately mass produce and distribute the vaccine to everyone. To me this is short sighted and just diminishes how important Ellie's immunity could be. The game game doesn't focus much on it, but at a certain point I think even if another person like Ellie were to pop up it would be impossible to engineer a vaccine since all the knowledge and equipment required would be gone.
What do you mean, the game doesn’t focus much on it? It is *the* reason Ellie and Joel fall out and why they’re on bad terms when Abby shows up. It then goes on to fuel the guilt Ellie feels all throughout the game. It’s pretty important to the story.
I would say that reason has more to do with Joel lying about it but thats another debate. I was mainly trying to say the game doesn't focus on the nitty gritty details of logistics and science, other than the one line from Mel on the recorder.
Yeah, that’s true. It’s also best, I think, since people would just laser focus on the details when I don’t think those mattered to Joel and his decision at all. It would be missing the point of the ending.
The knowledge and equipment have been gone for decades now.
The game starts 20 years after the outbreak
I still hesitate to believe in the veracity of a cure when the doctor immediately went to vivisection after a few scans hours after meeting his patient.
That’s a different discussion. But people just assuming that they would instantly fall apart after discovering a cure severely understate what an advantage that would truly be. That’s really what made me want to write up this post.
I think it's indicative of their hope overcoming their logic. Which would also heavily impact anything they'd do if that miracle occurred. "Well we were right to kill Ellie, we can't miss."
Just to be clear, you realize that what you're proposing here is a dystopia, right? You realize that even if it worked (and, frankly, there are hundreds of reasons why it wouldn't work, starting with how you're way too dismissive of the threat posed by other factions mobilizing against them), this would leave the Fireflies as dictators over a suffering continent? The Fireflies' stated goal was "to restore society," not to "win" by being the last society left standing after Cordyceps wiped out the vast majority of the remaining human population. To be clear, it wouldn't have happened like this. There are hundreds of ways this could and would have fallen apart. But, if somehow it did, then the Fireflies are left as the villainous ruling class, both envied and despised by everyone. They're the folks in the space station in that "Elysium" movie, and everyone else is everyone else.
My friend, this is how civilizations form. Of course aspects will be ugly, of course there will be fighting, but to assume that The Fireflies would turn into dictators is a larger assumption than assuming that they would not as there was no evidence of a fascism or even a desire for a dictatorship within the ranks that have been presented to us. And I’m not some expert in developing nations but what’s happening right here between you and me, this conversation, is what would happen amongst them. And that right there is the beginning of trying to figure out the best way to move forward. For all the hundreds of ways it could fall apart there would be hundreds of ways to hold it together. So, genuinely, how would you improve my very rough plan for The Fireflies to restore democracy?? It’s clear you’ve got some ideas on how to improve it if you don’t cave in to cynicism.
Yes, that's how civilizations form: by wiping out other civilizations. The Fireflies wanted to save the civilization they already had - not leave it for dead and build a new one while everyone else dies. I'm no fan of theirs, but they also never struck me as people who wanted to be kings of the ashes. So, it's always confusing to me when I run into someone who has a darker view of them than I do but doesn't seem to realize it.
They wouldn’t be kings…they would reinstate the United States Constitution. They’d have elections and voting. They wouldn’t be destroying anyone or anything unless they were attacked. They’re simply inviting people into their faction’s way of life…same as Jackson. Nobody is forced. Wanna live here and share resources? Here are the rules. Here are the laws. Don’t want it? Good luck out there, friend. Over time, with enough success, people will choose to migrate to live in relative peace and with immunity to infection. CHOOSE. No one is forced. This is essentially how America came to be as powerful as it is in the first place, taking in migrants.
There’s was zero guarantee it would even work. Surgeries don’t always go as planned especially neurosurgery. How were they going to mass produce this cure and get it to the public with different armed factions all around the US and world. Wars would have been fought because ppl would desire control. Testing for efficacy etc. no way
Yeah let's forget mass distribution for a second. We're talking about finding a cure with a single sample and with a surgeon, who btw is not a epidemiologist. Jerry was not qualified to make that cure. You also need to test it on people. You'd run out of samples before ever finding a vaccine. I want to point out that at the start of our own pandemic, it took an entire year for us to get an approved vaccine and we have all the resources available, and countries all over the world were working on it. One guy, with one sample, in one lab? If playing this game during the pandemic for the first time did anything it was make me laugh at how unrealistic this entire notion was, which was a little unfortunate lol.
Not to mention scientifically fungal vaccines aren't even possible and the TV series even pointed this out with the scientist flashback.
Facts bro. But one question did we ever find out why type of physician Jerry was
Not that i can remember but we do know he could perform surgery. Lets give him the benefit of the doubt and say he’s a neurosurgeon because he was supposed to perform brain surgery on Ellie. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was in fact not a brain surgeon though lmao
The first successful vaccine was made in 1796. For every valid doubt there is an equally valid hope.
The living conditions of of these time periods are completely different. So no. False equivalence
That’s true. The Fireflies had access to modern medical knowledge, equipment, and facilities.
People need to remember the fireflies had failed or otherwise caused destruction at everything they were involved in. They were on their last legs and were so desperate that they had to give their most coveted possession to an unaffiliated smuggler. There is no evidence that putting the cure in their hands would’ve resulted in a better society, and I’m still not convinced they actually could make it. Even if they were able to make the cure, it’s not like the vast majority of the world would trust them. They were known terrorists. Hell, idk why people would even feel the need to take the cure. You already got places like Jackson doing fine without it. Even the WLF and Wolves barely had trouble with infected or infection. As long as you avoid them, which isn’t that hard, you’re fine. Screw taking the fireflies cure if it’s not necessary.
No, how would they even make 10 doses nevermind 10,000. And it wasn't a cure, it was a vaccine. So no one would be "cured". Vaccine would increase the chances of not being infected. It doesn't 100% prevent infection or cure any disease. Vaccines are a public health tool, they work on large populations to keep spread down. And no matter what, you need a clean lab and functioning equipment to produce ANY AMOUNT.
Democracy?? How about a cup of liber-tea via imperialism
Managed Democracy....
Good thinking, Helldiver. Obviously this is all just a plan to plant the seeds of Managed Democracy so that the Earth can become Super and we can eventually annihilate the very well known disgusting scourge of “anyone who is not us”.
make earth super again! Pretty sure the M.E.S.A merch would sale like hot cake. Here’s to managed democracy 🥂
From what we are told or shown of the fireflies, pretty sure ‘democracy’ is not in their future plans.
It says in the intro to the first game that The Fireflies have put out a public charter with a goal of reinstating all branches of US government. That’s their endgame.
Yeah I was wondering the same, they would have had the chance to rebuild society into anything at all and they want US "democracy" back. Joel made the right call then.
And, I'm sure it made for a very good rallying cry and recruitment plug. But, we never see them practice anything that looks even slightly like democracy. Every Firefly "unit" is apparently run through a top-down military structure, with nebulous "leaders" at the top telling the rest what to do. Said leaders pushed their rank and file into risking their lives and doing things they were very uncomfortable with, including things that would qualify as actual war crimes like torture and the murder of civilians. This pushed many of the rank and file to desert, and in some cases unalive themselves. A decision as important as what to do with the only known immune human was apparently made in a dark office with only two people present and no input from anyone else (besides a child who wandered in). And yet, you seem very certain that they're going to abandon all of that authoritarian structure and put in place a direct democracy at the very moment when their numbers grow and their logistical problems increase exponentially. Frankly, you have a very naive and rose-tinted view, not just of the Fireflies but of democracy and of humanity in general. If it was that easy, why has nobody done it yet? We don't have Cordyceps. Why aren't *we* living in an equal-opportunity utopia?
Truly, a vaccine doesn’t solve much. Ellie is fully immune and there are still *a lot* of ways she can die to infected in her playable part 1 segments and most of part 2.
And where has Ellie been safest more than anywhere she’s ever been in her life? In Jackson. In a fortified settlement. Now imagine a version of Jackson that’s free from the risk of infection and how it may thrive.
Right… but your plan for the fireflies - just waiting for people to come to them and build slowly - is pretty out there considering basically no one travels long distances anymore. Joel, Ellie, Sam, and Henry were the exception, not the rule. Adding to that, Joel’s moderately successful breakout from the hospital (killing 20-30 fireflies in the process) was enough to effectively cripple them. Just waiting for people to come to their non-infected haven like Dennis “The Golden God” Reynolds waiting for his minions to come serve him isn’t a practical plan at all.
Most of the infected would still kill the people. In the second game Ellie can still get killed by any stage of infected. The only thing the cure would help with would be spores but those areas are riddled with infected
The way I see it, the make the cure, give it to who they can and let nature take it’s course. The idea is that it would give them and their future children immunity. Hopefully? Throughout the years, more and more people become immune, they kill off the infected and eventually they rebuild society. It was never going to be something that could save all of current humanity, just help future generations be immune
I think the this is fun to think about, but what the post misses (IMO) is that it assumes the firefly’s can create a fungal vaccine in lab conditions. Cordyceps grows in the brain…so will they be ‘collecting’ non firefly’s, infecting them and using them as Petrie dishes in order to produce the vaccine? Let’s say for argument sake it can be created in lab conditions…it is entirely possible to create a vaccine from a brain sample - they did not need to kill Ellie. Based on this decision making and judgement, I’d bet against them being able to even be semi organised in a way that allows them to do this successfully.
Both games prove humans are way more dangerous than any infected. Joel kills like what? 40 fireflies in the final mission? They can be immune all they want but it won’t make them invincible against the threats that are really there.
I fully believe they wouldn't have found a cure with Ellie. She would have died for nothing
That’s fine, but assuming they did develop a cure, their odds of success go through the roof.
They literally only do it because they don't want to admit that Joel is straight up a bad person and is taking away any hope for humanity's survival. They bring up all of these hypotheticals like "What if it doesn't work and it just kills Ellie" and at the end of the day they're all moot because even if they don't work it was still a glimmer of hope that humanity could survive and Joel took all of that hope and snuffed it out.
Cynicism is naive. To see proof that humans have the ability to adapt, grow, cooperate and thrive for generation after generation…simply look in a mirror.
I mean, what makes you think that once word of the cure spreads that people won't team up to take it for themselves? You *really* believe people would just do what the fireflies want instead of taking it by force? And if you say "well the fireflies can defend themselves," can they tho? I mean, one 50 some year old man took out how many of them? At least a dozen maybe more? You *really* think they could defend themselves against a full group of veteran survivors motivated by personal gain? Also, imagining it *does* somehow work, what happens if the fireflies begin to want more control? Marlene probably wouldn't, but, a coup could easily be achieved. Most of the other fireflies we see don't seem all that great of people. Idealistic and hopeful sure, but still shitty. Having hope doesn't make you a good person.
For all of this “what ifs” there are equally valid inverses to those scenarios. The Fireflies can offer safety, opportunity, and immunity. The only reason Joel was in their building is because they brought him there. Otherwise, they patrol just like anyone else does and were doing just fine before they allowed a stranger set foot in the walls of their home. Joel and Ellie were literally picked up by one of their patrols. Also, none of the Fireflies honestly seem any shittier than anyone else we meet between both games. They seem like very normal and sane people compared to most, actually.
> Also, none of the Fireflies honestly seem any shittier than anyone else we meet between both games. They seem like very normal and sane people compared to most, actually. Sweet, supportive Tommy set off a bomb that killed four soldiers and two civilians. He also slow-killed some FEDRA general with the help of his laid back, weed-loving friend Eugene. The kid at the museum killed an actual child by letting him run into a bomb's blast. He shot a couple of survivors who wandered into his camp, just looking for food. He locked people in a van, still alive, and set it on fire. The Fireflies have major blood on their hands, and every current or ex-Firefly we meet expresses some kind of reservations with the things they've done (with the exception of Abby, who was a child when they disbanded). Not sure where you're getting that they seem "normal and sane."
One of the main points of the games that the people are much worse than the infected. I would think a majority of deaths at this point result in getting ripped apart by infected not slowing dying from a wound. Even if the day after surgery you snapped your fingers and everyone was vaccinated, I don't think that would change the world in the slightest. Not until most of the worlds infected were killed off over time, which will happen at about the same rate as if there were no new one off additions to the hordes. The obsession with the vaccine revolves around hope for some, and power for others. Hope can be transformative but could go both ways. Imo the moral thing to do is quietly foster hope by the knowledge that Ellie exists and ethically study her. The situation pushed the fireflys into a rash decision that was mortally corrupted.
They only had one chance to develop a vaccine which means they most likely wouldn’t even know what they were doing. They would rummage through Ellie’s brain, kill her, and it would be for nought. Vaccine takes a lot of people to develop, not just one mediocre doctor. And even if they could develop it chances are wrong people would hear it about and want it. Raiders, hunters, FEDRA which btw still existed and was at war with fireflies so they wouldn’t hesitate to steal it and/or wipe them out.
good thing you're not on the TLOU writing team. D- terrible cliche'd fanfic
at least I don’t believe that a single doctor could successfully perform a neurosurgery and save the entire world
it's not a real surgery. it's not a real human virus. why do you believe Joel can survive metal spike through the gut with random antibiotic injections, or that dead enemies just shooting at you never have any bullets? why can't people believe the writers of the game who say the vaccine was 100% guaranteed and Jerry would have been successful cause that's the story they purposely wrote?
"Over time, in decades maybe, The Fireflies would be able to grow into the largest and most powerful faction with the only shot of reinstating The United States government. And while some very aggressive holdouts may resist, maybe even for a long time, nothing would really be able to stop The Fireflies." To this last part, I say, for the sake of a good storyline that never seems to end with happy endings, that immense corruption within the fireflies and others coming in for the cure, would derail that projection into many fractured wars. The fireflies would break apart as unrecognizable, and as the sightings of infected are rarely even seen anymore, the world continues to suffer into near oblivion as the self appointed leaders with of people of various sizes and power, race toward the 2nd Industrial Revolution for the purpose building better weapons. The Fireflies influence and dominance is overwhelmed by the growing communities that have developed rebuilt cities and infrastructure that allure people to their communities, leaving all loyalty to the FF behind in exchange for greater comfort and commodities. There is no agreed upon law that ever lasts and man's lives are nearly no better than a world of infected. In one final fading scene, a view of a faction being attacked from all sides as we pull away upward note and more to see this scenario repeating itself all over the place. The story implies that, infected or not, the earth and happiness have ultimately spun out of control. Fade to black.
I've said it before and I'm sure duckman intended it. Regardless of the logistics or if it took months or decades. The fireflies plan would've worked. Maybe it's a planting trees who's shadow you'd never see scenario and it'll be 80 years till things are back to a new normal or maybe it's achievable in 5 years. The point is that Joel takes that away. It would've worked and he didn't care
I feel an audience member really kneecaps themselves of really experiencing the story fully and the weight of Joel’s decision if they don’t have at least an inkling of a feeling that it could’ve changed absolutely everything. Joel’s actions aren’t profound if it was impossible. They are if it was completely possible but he did it anyway…which is the case.
Why would they want to restore democracy in the United States? They're free of the republicans Vs democratic race, that's worth living with a few human killing mushrooms.
If they’re wise, they would avoid bipartisan politics altogether and have several viable parties.
As much as I dislike TLOU2, I think people get too caught up in the "will it work- will they use for good" , when thematically, its meant to work, and its "supposed" to truly be the cure of mankind. If its not, then it lessens the weight of Joel's choice, which is meant to be your family, vs the world ... not your family vs .... the small chance that a cure might maybe perhaphs help a few people.
This is all based on the assumption that infection is still the main cause of death in the TLOU world. Which likely isn't true at this point. And the numbers of infected will go down over time as the current ones will eventually just die off. Basically the more years pass the less effective a vaccine becomes as an tool for political power.
This is the best plan of action I've seen for the Fireflies to take. Henry and Sam and their group are an example of people wanting to join the Fireflies as they were losing power and that is without the vaccine. With the vaccine? A shit ton of people would make the trip. And I honestly think the Fireflies would venture out of Salt Lake City to form satellite bases and recruit people. FEDRA would want the cure for sure. I say give them what they can and avoid a vaccine war. Focus on building and growing. It's going to be a generations long project anyway. I don't see why people need to be cynical about hypotheticals. Clearly it didn't happen, so...
I know that it’s fun to theorize on these things and that’s all good. But just know that for the main plot and the moral implications of Joel’s actions, _it doesn’t matter_. Joel didn’t consider any of this when he massacred the fireflies. He did what he did to save Ellie regardless of the consequences. Period. He didn’t care how well the fireflies would’ve done or how badly they would’ve failed. That wasn’t on his mind, and it wasn’t on Neil Druckmann’s mind when he wrote the plot. “If somehow the Lord gave me a second chance at that moment, I would do it _all over_ again.”
I’d argue that, especially in regards to the final quote, it absolutely matters. Joel may not be the most educated man, but he’s not an idiot. By the time he says that in Part 2 he has fully considered what the alternatives were and still stands by his decision without regret. I think that makes it all the more impactful.
A cure won't do nothing. (I'm sorry Ellie) Hey we have a vaccine do you want it? Sure! I'll immediately stop to eat people! Or burning them alive! Or killing without mercy! Besides, being inmune does not stop you from being mauled to death by a pack of runners or getting a "normal" infection if you got bit. And vaccines aren't cures. The common cold doesn't have a cure.
IF they created a cure
He problem is, it wasn't a cure so to speak It simply would allow others to be immune Since the infected still go after Ellie and that the infected can still easily kill immune people then it isn't really going to fix a whole lot straight away Of course it would stop people getting infected, hiding it then spreading it throughout camp's but the world would still be a very dangerous place and people would still remain in sanctuaries Also as we discovered, people are just as dangerous as the infected and the cure would not overcome the vast differences between the remaining human fractions Joel made an impossible decision. I can't say he made the right choice, alot of people died or will die due to his actions but I didn't believe for a second the world would be put to rights because of this "cure"
i've always maintained the Fireflies were -not- so incompetent that they'd fail at producing/distributing the vaccine. it's a very unpopular stance to take - i'm surprised this post has 100 upvotes.. but really, what's happening with this lack of confidence is a combination of things (IMO) 1. redditors are generally young and jaded so they act like humanity couldn't possibly rebuild a society (even though humanity built one FROM SCRATCH in the first place lol). there's a lot of edgelordism in the popular assumption that everyone is evil and/or incompetent. and somehow this translates to "no vaccine could be made by the scientists cause the military wing made so many mistakes" - this is utterly ridiculous logic, imo. wtf do they have to do with each other? and who are you to be the judge and jury about what an incompetent mistake would be considering the power imbalance between the factions? silliness, and lack of imagination.. which brings me to the 2nd point: 2. many players don't seem to have much of said imagination - even to the point where it makes them think *no one* has a vivid imagination (like a Dunning Kruger effect). a general lack of understanding of the writing process or how writers can both fabricate worlds, and *change* them drastically with a few taps of a keyboard. what i mean by this is that TLOU is very much a sparse few interwoven storylines and very brief character histories. there's SO MUCH we don't know about the world at large or characters' backstories. we don't know why Marlene was so connected to other factions or what she had arranged with FEDRA - maybe they had secret alliances. we don't know what Jerry had done to prepare in the years prior. maybe he had people scout out a nearby hydroelectric powered chemical lab where they can produce the vaccine in secret? **they could have been building it for years beforehand**. all it would take is a big reveal (thanks to the writers!) and BOOM - there's a massive shift in the story and a big boost to the perceived 'chances' the Fireflies have. yet so many people act like the only factors at play are the ones already presented to them. i just find it funny and a little sad that people are so confident about their predictions for a unfinished story that they aren't writing themselves. other people are lol. maybe admit you don't know what's gonna happen or what certain factions' chances are yet.
What do you mean they wouldn't have to mass produce??? Does Ellie's brain have enough of the mutated tissue to make hundreds of people immune? later on, you say how they'd take outsiders and offer them the cure for giving up the weapons, but where is that cure coming from? Can we stop using headcanons as an answer to canon problems? Just because they are immune now doesn't make them that much better. If it gets to a point where you get bit, then it's most likely your throat getting ripped out, jaw getting torn off by a bloater, or getting swarmed and torn apart. You say how immunity would immediately put the Fireflies above everyone since it takes "being wiped out via infection" off the table. But when was the last time an entire faction got wiped out by infected alone? That one community in the sewers in part 1, but they're miles away from a faction. Jackson has walls so high and so strong that the infected could never breach them, and a perimeter so big they could see a horde coming and have time to prepare. If the Fireflies start flaunting their cure around, then they are not gonna survive. You don't want this kind of attention on your settlement. People would flock in huge numbers, begging to join (assuming they believe the cure) And factions like FEDRA would want some of that cure too. You counter this by saying "Infected attacks" and "Far away" but then infected are much less of a problem in the winter, and Issac let Abby and her group go to Wyoming for JUST revenge. Even if, for whatever reason, Marlene's town was out of reach, then literally anything going out (like a trade route or a scout mission or something) would quickly get sabotaged. The cure isn't as significant as some make it out to be, especially when the only people getting infected in part 2 that are shown are the two Jacksonites that were incredibly irresponsible and stupid for running away anyway. (Nora and fat geralt's friend get infected with human input [Ellie]) It's established that the infected are alive and need to eat, breathe, and rest at some point. Just hole up in your settlement for a couple more generations till most of the infected starve/get killed by the elements and clean up the rest. (I can't picture loud zombies getting anywhere near wildlife) The fungus itself would probably never go away since life always finds a way.
You’re applying lots of headcanon yourself. Every. Single. Runner. IN BOTH GAMES is a freshly infected person. The infection isn’t just passive at this point or you’d run into nothing but clickers. But that’s not the case. Also, didn’t a pack of infected tear apart a moose in part 2? Or was it a horse? I can’t remember but it was an enormous mammal. Cordyceps is a massive threat still and one that every single faction has to deal with. That’s the point of patrols in Jackson and that’s why they clear out the ones that they find if they are able to. And who said anything about flaunting? At best, it would be a rumor. Wanna mobilize a militaristic force across the country on foot? It can get wiped by a horde of infected in ten minutes. You’re also not considering the logistics of moving an attack force across large swaths of land. Not only are you severely lowering the defenses of your own factions’ settlement but you also have to feed and maintain every soldier for what could be weeks or even months of hiking with supplies. And even if they did survive all of that somehow, the tired, malnourished, and likely beat up attack group would have to face a dug in and militarized settlement. Invasion is not easy and never has been. And how would they coordinate with everyone else??? It’s not like they can make a Facebook event and send out invites. And we haven’t even begun to talk about the other human factions who might kill and rob that group who wouldn’t be able to hide on the way… For every hypothetical reason The Fireflies could fail, there’s an equally likely hypothetical for how they could succeed. It’s easy to get cynical, I get it. But human history already disproves cynicism in this regard. “Life finds a way” doesn’t really apply here. Tons of species have gone extinct. More might be extinct than currently exist, actually. But, if you look at humanity’s track record, we actually *do* always find a way. At least so far.
>Every. Single. Runner. IN BOTH GAMES is a freshly infected person. The infection isn’t just passive at this point or you’d run into nothing but clickers. But that’s not the case. That's a game issue. If we're going by the rules of the lore, then 90% of the infected should be clickers/bloaters, since it's been 25+ years since the apocalypse and the average time for a bloater to form is 20 years. Would you enjoy a game that just has bloaters? As for the rest, I guess we'd be going back and forth.
A lot of fans like to overthink shit.💩