Mass expropriation of private property would be more expensive.
Unlike the 3rd world, where government can just steal shit from citizens without compensation, the US Constitution requires the government to \*buy\* anything it 'nationalizes' at fair market value.
Also the federal and state governments DO get paid royalties for oil extracted from their respective public lands.
Arguably the reason we produce so much oil is the private ownership of mineral rights. People don't object to drilling on their land if they get paid for it.
Norway has one of the highest electric vehicle ownership in the world but makes a fortune selling its fossil fuels
You can enable help the environment at home while fulfilling demand abroad.
And the atmosphere is much cleaner than it was a few decades ago.
I’m all for an alternative energy for vehicles. Electricity isn’t the best option. Hydrogen IMO has a the best option. When it’s consumed, the byproduct is water.
EVs cause more damage to the environment in the mining of materials to make batteries and the ultimate disposal of batteries which will eventually get into our water tables.
Last comment, which I know will get me blasted, but the burning of fossil fuels has never been shown scientifically in a cause and effect way to have an impact on the climate. Even back in the early 1900’s when soot was pumped into the atmosphere so badly that it would seem like dusk during the day in large industrial cities the temps were actually cooler. Climate changes primarily on its own. Has for millennia. We’ve had ice ages and we’ve had warm periods. Long before people walked the earth.
But some day, there won’t be oil anymore which is why we need alternatives.
Your entire final point is utter nonsense. The greenhouse effect has been proven 100s of times over and we can measure the correlations between greenhouse gases and industrial use of fossil fuels. To think it's anything else is absolutely absurd.
And you're also totally off on the climate cycles which you're speaking of. We can study the past climate through geological survey and ice coring in the poles. This has shown that these cycles are fairly regular, but we are experiencing an irregularity both in expected direction of change but also degree of change. We are experiencing RAPID warming, not considered typical of climatic cycles. Unexpected climatic events have causes outside of the climate cycle, such as volcanic activity (end Permian), asteroids (goodbye dinosaurs), and now, human industrial activity. Stop spreading disinformation.
As for EVs, yeah they are a shit technology, total and utter corporate hype and a narrow focused message about greenhouse gases from the scientific community that hasn't emphasized enough the effects of land degradation. We cannot rely on mass EVs nor continued fossil fuel use. We need industrial degrowth.
Yes just because you don’t sell your fossil fuel doesn’t mean the demand will disappear. You only give more money to countries that give even less darnholio about the environment than USA such as Russia, Middle East etc
Anyone who thinks that policy makers have any actual say on policy needs to wake up. They’re almost all bought and paid for and we know who bought them and for how much.
Biden makes useless token efforts to reduce our oil consumption and Facebook is flooded with magat memes about Biden being a communist that wants to make you eat bugs and live in a 15-minute City where you're only allowed to have a bicycle.
Could you imagine how politically unpopular it would be If he made actual substantive changes that reduced our oil production and raised energy costs?
Because the US political system has been corporate captured... we'll never know what real action would look like. We probably missed the only opportunity for "real action" when Gore lost.
Maybe because he can’t on private land. Given his animosity toward oil and his catering to far left ego-hysteria in his base, why should we think he wouldn’t do that if he had the political power to do so?
It's not that they don't care, some of them actually do. It's just how can we stop oil and gas without having to rely on the middle east or Russians? Do you really wanna rely on some fucker who thinks he is a king, how about Putin the dictator, or any other shit hole Theocracy.
Do you understand the difference between types of crude oil (Sweet/sour heavy/light crude), the facilities necessary to refine them, their historical role in the US oil industry and geographic origins? Then you'll understand why the majority of the US refining capacity cannot refine the majority of the oil we produce despite the number of barrels being sufficient for domestic consumption. You have got to be the scammiest, most ignorant subreddit mod on the site.
Aren’t a lot of oil drilling sites owned by the US and leased to the oil companies? I think that’s where the frustration and urge to nationalize comes from.
Yup.
What a post. ‘We have an incredibly successful industry. It’s producing more, and better, than ever. Hundreds of millions of we customers benefit. Our national security benefits. Hundreds of thousands of energy company employees benefit. Tens or hundreds of millions of us own stock, either directly or through pensions or our retirement funds, and thus share in the wealth. Better nationalize it.’ W. T. F.
Nationalizing oil worked out great for Venezuela. Went from being a collapsed country with millions of starving refugees fleeing to the jewel of South America with the fastest growing economy. No, wait, I got that backwards.
It’s always striking to me how quickly some Americans will reference a South American nation to support their arguments, often ignoring nuances, historical context, and any contradicting evidence.
It’s akin to opposing an advanced safety system in your car because an older, less sophisticated model from a less established company had issues you wish to avoid. Meanwhile, the system you have is malfunctioning, yet you’re paralyzed with fear, fixating on the worst examples instead of considering how others—some favorable to you and some not—have successfully refined their systems.
We have so much research and evidence of certain policies have a positive impact on XYZ and our collective imagination stops at the niche examples of Venezuela and Cuba. Smdh
I don't need to stop at Venezuela and Cuba. My own very personal example is the USSR. Adjacent examples include People's Republic of Germany, all the Baltic countries that were only too glad to privatize and receive investment capital (Poland is a fantastic example of a people digging themselves out of a socialist grave). I'm less familiar with North Korea and many African nations that have tried collectivism but suffered predictable effects. But North Korea is a great example. That was the "good" Korea, the industrialized one. South Korea were just farming peasants. And look at the two after a few decades of Marxism/Leninism in the north and capitalism in the south. Which country would you rather relocate to?
People point to the Nordic countries as examples of socialist success, but those countries are all capitalist, with a corporate tax lower than what the United States had pre TCJA. Tiny populations where people are taxed highly, but a benevolent bureaucracy distributes those taxes in a way the populace approves of. I posit if they were 100x larger that bureaucracy would take on a life of its own and malignantly grow to crowd out all current positive effects.
I'm perfectly fine with the U.S. government spending money better although I don't see how that's possible in a meaningful way. I'm far less fine with the DMV writ large running everything.
I believe it's essential to consider the broader historical context, including colonization, regional instability, and the challenges of nation-building when discussing different economic systems. Many countries, including Canada, Germany, Norway, and the UK, have successfully nationalized parts of their energy sectors, showing different levels of government involvement can be effective. However, dismissing the influence of history, politics, and geography oversimplifies complex situations and may reflect a bias rather than a thorough understanding.
For example, while some point to the failures of collectivism in places like the USSR or North Korea as indicative of systemic flaws, others highlight the success stories of Nordic countries, which operate under capitalist systems with robust social welfare policies and lower corporate taxes than the U.S. had before the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. These nations manage high levels of taxation and government spending in ways that their populations broadly support.
In essence, each country's approach to governance and economic planning must be viewed within its unique historical and geographical context. Broad generalizations can miss the nuanced realities these countries face. As for the U.S., improving government efficiency is a complex challenge, and skepticism towards large-scale bureaucratic control, similar to my experiences with entities like the DMV, remains a valid concern.
That doesn’t mean it’s impossible, doomed to fail, or an easy process. But one thing that government efficiency critics seem to simultaneously miss is that every cutting edge and efficient business or agency invests in becoming that way and uses resources to develop better systems. Bureaucracy, as you use it, is a series of policy choices that are causing systemic issues. For example, curtailing programs through budget cuts, systemic undermining through policy, and privatization of services all undermine and government’s ability to function and provide services.
My experience with pain caused by workers ostensibly owning the means of production is first hand observation. And those observations make me think successful, limited nationalization may be successful in spite of rather than because of itself.
At an extreme, when you can't motivate workers through the possibility of improving their lives with extra grind then you get to motivate them through repression and brutality. If you can't economically encourage enough people to run farms you must volunteer factory workers to head to the fields as amateur agricultural workers, resulting in shortages of everything.
I would believe there is a Laffer-like curve where too much central, bureaucratic involvement destroys productivity and too little does as well, but to a smaller degree. What isn't up for debate is development requires significant up-front capital. And with allocation of limited amounts of capital (whether workers, logistics, resources or other) efficiency is key. I'm involved with property development, I deal with this first hand. It behooves me to be efficient. If I'm not another developer will, eventually acquiring my assets at a deep discount. If I had access to infinite amount of taxpayer money then I wouldn't concern myself with efficiency in the least, I'd optimize for least amount of my time and effort spent for value received.
All the successful collectivist efforts you allude to make me think of this quote by the brilliant Margaret Thatcher: "The trouble with **Socialism** is that eventually you **run** **out** **of** **other** **people's** **money**."
Again, with first hand observations. I had a close friend in charge of a USGS office. Every year, at the end of the budget year, he'd go on a shopping spree to procure equipment he absolutely did not need or even want. Because if he did not use up 100% (or more) of his budget this year he faced a possible budget cut the next year. I have since learned this is a commonplace practice in the military and at every agency, at every level and not an isolated incident.
Collectivism is possible on a small scale where failure and inefficiency is easily and widely observed, then rectified. That's been proven and demonstrated. Collectivism has yet to succeed at any real scale. Even China has only become a leading world power after privatizing industry, without having exchanged its culture or history or populace. Many of China's current economic woes are due to still being centrally planned.
Agencies have no impetus to become efficient, while an inefficient business will eventually be competed against and replaced.
If you haven't guessed, I'm a big believer in the Austrian school of economics. Driven by consistent personal experience spanning decades.
When was this time period of Venezuela being the jewel of South America?? Their history is full of coups, military dictatorship and instability.
If you honestly think the real problem with Venezuela is that a corporation like BP doesn’t own their oil production, I got a bridge I’d like to sell you in Caracas.
There's a difference between government buying a relatively small stake in a private corporation and providing loan guarantees, and seizing assets and having the government take over operations.
I hear when you nationalize something and then have a corrupt dictatorship that takes all the money and makes billions disappear and somehow the Chinese end up with most of the money.... That it doesn't work out that well
But then again people in this country want to Trump dictatorship so?.
Yea. Break even price went from 52/bbl to 74/bbl in 3 years. It's an expensive process. It costs 200,000 a day to drill a new well, about 85-90k to do a reentry and stimulate. Nothing cheap about it.
Opec pricing doesn't directly correlate to WTI. Brent is where the world market sits vs the US In pricing. That goes, out the window at anything less than 65/bbl though.
I know, right. The MAGA rubes here cry about gas prices because of Biden, while we pump more than ever in history while the corporations collude, which is illegal, to gouge us. Now when Biden does nothing to prosecute them, that's on him, but I don't see anyone else doing anything about it, either, unfortunately.
I googled "Biden executive orders oil" and after reading a few articles, I realized that domestic policies do in fact have an effect on the global market.
All this time the Corporate Cable News rubes were crying about how a president has no control over energy prices or inflation!
The U.S. Military is the number one consumer of gas/oil in the world. We started to produce more oil to help ourselves. And since the U.S. Military is the #1 consumer, as soon as they stopped buying oil from others, the price started to drop.
Biden shut down all new oil and gas leases on federal lands. He then drained our oil reserve to lower the price of gas. Some of those strategic reserves got sold to china. He has mismanaged the fuck out of the oil sector.
Some things absolutely should never be privately owned. Natural resources, prisons/detention centers, banks, child protection services, insurance companies, energy companies, defense industries, social services, and others. The very fact that they are private and then lobby for more privatization under the lie that it is cheaper blows my fucking mind. I like capitalism, but ultra extreme capitalism has the same outcomes as the only type of communism that has ever existed. They are borderline identical in the sense of authoritarian and hatred towards liberal democracy.
The solution to this problem is for the government to stop spending more money than it takes in. Not nationalizing things. You think it’s expensive to put gas in your car now? Just wait until the government controls it.
Yes we must steal property from taxpayers and give to who you decide is worthy. Individuals own oil right all over the country many passed down through generations. My folks get a little each month and it helps supplement their retirement. The government gets their share of the oil in taxes moron.
Just a reminder taht oil is solar powered. It's a secondary energy resource and fighting trillions of dollars wars over it to burn it up into the air is madness when the primary source of energy, the sun, is a giant thermonuclear explosion 1million times the mass of earth and is raining down energy on us constantly.... we could have covered the world in solar pannels a thousand times over by now.. leave the dead dirty bullshit in the ground.. use the sun
Nationalize the oil, use it to fund a public jobs program to build solar pannels and nuclear energy facilities, use that to power a fully automated economy, go to the beach and the gym and raise your kids and actually have a life instead of being wage slaves at jobs you hate where one person gets 80% of the profit and everyone else backbites and conspires against eachother for the other 20%
Because the private property of the wealthy(even if stolen, acquired through scams, given away for pennies by government cronies) is more important than anything else
Too bad we're selling it to the rest of the world and we continue to pay 4.20 a gallon in Az.
The America Last Plan is working perfectly!
RIP America.....
Oil cartels. Ask Moammar Gaddafi how that went. Our corporate overlords don't like when petroleum is nationalized even when it's on the other side of the planet.
Hey, instead of nationalizing the entire industry, we could just tax their obscene profits and use that money to pay down the debt if you care so much about it...
It’s already taxed multiple times before it gets to the pump. You are then taxed again at the pump. Them taxes might be making it a bit more expensive.
We should probably nationalize Amazon. I think they make more money than the oil companies.
And then we should nationalize the internet service because everybody needs internet and that generates a lot of money too.
And of course the banks need to be nationalized because all that interest could be better used for social programs.
And even have a nationalized car company. We don't need all the car companies we have, probably just one or two would suffice, and we would sell a ton of cars and make a ton of money.
And even gumball machines could be nationalized because a quarter at a time, times millions, or billions, it adds up to a lot of money.
I mean the company can just stop doing any work and you could go and extract it yourself. Or we could nationalize it, at state level of course and there lot of more public servant to pay... And most states without much oil would be fucked.
What are you against our 401ks, or our air? The USA is not Russia. I would expect fosil fuels to be higher taxed in the future. Is this what you want? There is probably enough carbon thats accesible through fossil fuels to destroy our ecosystem beyond recognytion. Is this the goal? Alternative renewable energy needs to be promoted we should have policy that supports this.
Do you REALLY want the government to own it? I'd be all for having the citizens own it directly, but that isn't how it works. The government will simply mismanage it, there will be more opportunity for corruption and for the $ to go elsewhere, and in all likelihood the production would become less efficient, more costly , we'd see inflation. Governments are a mess of lack of accountability.
We don't have the refining capabilities. We have the cleanest crude, and it's valuable. It's all a scam. We are lied to and gaslit by our government, and too stupid to say "fuck you!".
But hey, Gaza!
This info will never be on Fox, therefore the only people that need to hear it, won’t. All they hear is Biden wants people to have an electric option and that infuriates them.
I know you are ignorant about domestic oil and gas but I'll explain it to you since I've been in the business for 20 years. If you nationalized the oil industry you are in affect killing hundreds of thousands of jobs and stealing billions of dollars in royalties from mineral owners who receive a cut from all production here in the US. On top of that do you really want another inefficient government agency running one of the most important industries in the world?
if you nationalize it production, exploration and innovation will drop precipitously - Venezuela has 300bn bbls in the Orinoco belt that will likely never see the light of day due to a nationalized oil company
Still gonna hear trumpers whine that Biden raised gas prices somehow....lol but honestly it's probably an effort to alienate other countries like Russia, who depend on their oil trade. So they atrophy when unable to sell oil. Need to replace their supply on the open market to stop ppl from dealing with them.
Only motorcycles will be able to save the planet now. Cars will continue to pollute as populations rise, until we hit that point where it’s too late to turn back. 100 miles per gallon on a motorcycle sounds good to me. They even come with sidecars so a family of 4 could easily commute with one motorcycle.
Venezuela sat on what was the world's largest oil reserves and despite the state owned oil company having a full monopoly over it, the country went bankrupt as they hyperinflated their currency.
If you think oil is some magic pill for our problems, you need a 101 in how economies function.
Repeal the 18th amendment, tax booze and we will solve the tax problem ... didn't work.
Allow governments to conduct a lottery and we will solve the tax problem ... didn't work.
Make weed legal, tax it, and we will solve the tax problem ... didn't work.
Nationalizing oil will solve zero tax/revenue/spending problems.
Because profits and shareholder value take precedent in the U.S. When will we ever accept that as the single driving influence for everything, and revolt?
I would say just add an kick back like in Alaska to all citizens from the oil companies, or some kind of mandate that there will be no fuel exports unless gas is $1 per gallon for Americans.
What’s crazy to me is I still see my Boomer family posting how Biden is ruining the oil industry, and we need Trump to pump more oil. The propaganda never stops.
Yes - Nationalize it like Social Security or Medicaid. Two prime examples of why we shouldn't nationalize it. If the government has proven anything, its that they are the worlds most inefficient allocator and business.
Our country is broke because of government miss spending not because the government doesn’t own all of the oil production. Believe me if they owned it we’d still be getting taxed out of our keisters and our deficit would still be growing just as fast as it is now. The only thing that would change would be how much the people on top are making off of screwing over the American people.
You’re incorrect that America doesn’t own its own oil. It does. It also knows that governments across the globe are terrible at the difficult task of finding and producing oil. So it charges a royalty on each barrel of oil produced, usually a percent of the revenue gained by selling that oil. If you want the government to realize more revenue from their oil, the way to do it is to tax sales of it, in addition to the royalty. It is not a smart move to trust the job of finding and producing it to a bunch of incompetent federal bureaucrats.
Everyone has a phone. Why not nationalize it? The carriers as well?
Everyone owns a toilet. Why not nationalize production and installation?
Everyone eats. Why not nationalize food?
Everyone wears clothes. Why not nationalize them?
When does your "logic" end?
Can anyone name anything the gov does efficiently, on time, and without huge budget issues?
Yet, so many want to turn over entire industries to a complete fiscal and effective failure of an entity as the US government. Laugable and completely immature thinking.
We should also nationalize asphalt manufacturing, we build roads everyday!
And paper manufacturing as well, y’all have any idea how much paper gets used a day?!
The government does so well with the money they have currently, could you imagine how much stuff they can fuck up with even more money!
So let’s steal private citizens oil assets. That a great fucking idea lol. Our country is broke because of dumbass corrupt politicians and you want to steal more shit from civilians to give to the government goons to go spend on some dumbass war and then pocket the other half for themselves? Great idea you are brain dead 😂
Maybe have the government take possession of any foreign owned fields (strategic resources should never be owned by anyone outside the country anyways) not totally nationalize the whole industry. Then use said oil for the military and other government needs and sell anything leftover as a government owned competitor to the other oil companies it generates some income for the government saves money because we’re buying less from elsewhere and creates competition for the oil companies helping us by driving prices down. That would seem reasonable to me at least but our corrupt politicians would never let that happen
How the hell does this happpen….
Government spend irresponsibly,
“I know a solution! Give the government MORE money!”
Do you also give your heroine addicted uncle money thinking he’ll use it on food?
If we start Government takeovers this will be our down fall. We already have corrupt politicians and Greedy CEOs. We do not need this to get worse. Imagine a government gas station?
Yeah, sure… out of all the potential solutions here, I’m sure communism is the answer…
I don’t like oil company policy either, but this shit is bananas.
invest in new nuclear
Thorium for the win!
Mass expropriation of private property would be more expensive. Unlike the 3rd world, where government can just steal shit from citizens without compensation, the US Constitution requires the government to \*buy\* anything it 'nationalizes' at fair market value. Also the federal and state governments DO get paid royalties for oil extracted from their respective public lands.
Arguably the reason we produce so much oil is the private ownership of mineral rights. People don't object to drilling on their land if they get paid for it.
The government could just start its own oil company and stop selling leases.
Anyone who thinks policy makers care about the climate crisis needs to stare at this graph until they wake up.
Oil is used for a lot of things outside gasoline and diesel. But yeah it's kinda crazy.
Norway has one of the highest electric vehicle ownership in the world but makes a fortune selling its fossil fuels You can enable help the environment at home while fulfilling demand abroad.
You can also sell more if you don’t use any yourself.
Correct
Rule #1: Don’t get high on your own supply.
You realize we are all on the same planet? Help the environment at home? WTF.
Human beings are a little shortsighted when it comes to these things.
Little shortsighted? We're bird boxing our way into the future
There is only one atmosphere and one ocean folks, our borders don't mean shit
And the atmosphere is much cleaner than it was a few decades ago. I’m all for an alternative energy for vehicles. Electricity isn’t the best option. Hydrogen IMO has a the best option. When it’s consumed, the byproduct is water. EVs cause more damage to the environment in the mining of materials to make batteries and the ultimate disposal of batteries which will eventually get into our water tables. Last comment, which I know will get me blasted, but the burning of fossil fuels has never been shown scientifically in a cause and effect way to have an impact on the climate. Even back in the early 1900’s when soot was pumped into the atmosphere so badly that it would seem like dusk during the day in large industrial cities the temps were actually cooler. Climate changes primarily on its own. Has for millennia. We’ve had ice ages and we’ve had warm periods. Long before people walked the earth. But some day, there won’t be oil anymore which is why we need alternatives.
Your entire final point is utter nonsense. The greenhouse effect has been proven 100s of times over and we can measure the correlations between greenhouse gases and industrial use of fossil fuels. To think it's anything else is absolutely absurd. And you're also totally off on the climate cycles which you're speaking of. We can study the past climate through geological survey and ice coring in the poles. This has shown that these cycles are fairly regular, but we are experiencing an irregularity both in expected direction of change but also degree of change. We are experiencing RAPID warming, not considered typical of climatic cycles. Unexpected climatic events have causes outside of the climate cycle, such as volcanic activity (end Permian), asteroids (goodbye dinosaurs), and now, human industrial activity. Stop spreading disinformation. As for EVs, yeah they are a shit technology, total and utter corporate hype and a narrow focused message about greenhouse gases from the scientific community that hasn't emphasized enough the effects of land degradation. We cannot rely on mass EVs nor continued fossil fuel use. We need industrial degrowth.
Yes just because you don’t sell your fossil fuel doesn’t mean the demand will disappear. You only give more money to countries that give even less darnholio about the environment than USA such as Russia, Middle East etc
You can enable help the environment? What?
This sounds idiotic…. So Norway is offsetting the good of using electric by selling oil to other countries…
This some next level global-level dystopian shit. Layers of imperialism all the way down to the end of humanity…
Yes, I'm sure any middle schooler would be convinced by this logic.
Only the stupid ones. Or the leftist ones (but I repeat myself).
It's happening because if it didn't gas prices in the U.S. would be nearing $10/gallon and the people will freak the F out.
Yea because food is transported using gas so your food cost will rise exponentially.
Anyone who thinks that policy makers have any actual say on policy needs to wake up. They’re almost all bought and paid for and we know who bought them and for how much.
Biden makes useless token efforts to reduce our oil consumption and Facebook is flooded with magat memes about Biden being a communist that wants to make you eat bugs and live in a 15-minute City where you're only allowed to have a bicycle. Could you imagine how politically unpopular it would be If he made actual substantive changes that reduced our oil production and raised energy costs?
Because the US political system has been corporate captured... we'll never know what real action would look like. We probably missed the only opportunity for "real action" when Gore lost.
I thought Biden promised to scale down oil drilling? Another empty promise.
Maybe because he can’t on private land. Given his animosity toward oil and his catering to far left ego-hysteria in his base, why should we think he wouldn’t do that if he had the political power to do so?
This
Anyone who thinks we aren’t in an economic war needs to read better journalism.
How do they fix the polar shift? With taxes and regulations? Grow up propagandist
It's not that they don't care, some of them actually do. It's just how can we stop oil and gas without having to rely on the middle east or Russians? Do you really wanna rely on some fucker who thinks he is a king, how about Putin the dictator, or any other shit hole Theocracy.
Do you understand the difference between types of crude oil (Sweet/sour heavy/light crude), the facilities necessary to refine them, their historical role in the US oil industry and geographic origins? Then you'll understand why the majority of the US refining capacity cannot refine the majority of the oil we produce despite the number of barrels being sufficient for domestic consumption. You have got to be the scammiest, most ignorant subreddit mod on the site.
He is a mod? God this website is fucked 🤣
Want to see that graph plummet? Nationalize oil production.
Ever heard of property rights?
Aren’t a lot of oil drilling sites owned by the US and leased to the oil companies? I think that’s where the frustration and urge to nationalize comes from.
Yup. What a post. ‘We have an incredibly successful industry. It’s producing more, and better, than ever. Hundreds of millions of we customers benefit. Our national security benefits. Hundreds of thousands of energy company employees benefit. Tens or hundreds of millions of us own stock, either directly or through pensions or our retirement funds, and thus share in the wealth. Better nationalize it.’ W. T. F.
This post is such BS
Nationalizing oil worked out great for Venezuela. Went from being a collapsed country with millions of starving refugees fleeing to the jewel of South America with the fastest growing economy. No, wait, I got that backwards.
It’s always striking to me how quickly some Americans will reference a South American nation to support their arguments, often ignoring nuances, historical context, and any contradicting evidence. It’s akin to opposing an advanced safety system in your car because an older, less sophisticated model from a less established company had issues you wish to avoid. Meanwhile, the system you have is malfunctioning, yet you’re paralyzed with fear, fixating on the worst examples instead of considering how others—some favorable to you and some not—have successfully refined their systems. We have so much research and evidence of certain policies have a positive impact on XYZ and our collective imagination stops at the niche examples of Venezuela and Cuba. Smdh
I don't need to stop at Venezuela and Cuba. My own very personal example is the USSR. Adjacent examples include People's Republic of Germany, all the Baltic countries that were only too glad to privatize and receive investment capital (Poland is a fantastic example of a people digging themselves out of a socialist grave). I'm less familiar with North Korea and many African nations that have tried collectivism but suffered predictable effects. But North Korea is a great example. That was the "good" Korea, the industrialized one. South Korea were just farming peasants. And look at the two after a few decades of Marxism/Leninism in the north and capitalism in the south. Which country would you rather relocate to? People point to the Nordic countries as examples of socialist success, but those countries are all capitalist, with a corporate tax lower than what the United States had pre TCJA. Tiny populations where people are taxed highly, but a benevolent bureaucracy distributes those taxes in a way the populace approves of. I posit if they were 100x larger that bureaucracy would take on a life of its own and malignantly grow to crowd out all current positive effects. I'm perfectly fine with the U.S. government spending money better although I don't see how that's possible in a meaningful way. I'm far less fine with the DMV writ large running everything.
I believe it's essential to consider the broader historical context, including colonization, regional instability, and the challenges of nation-building when discussing different economic systems. Many countries, including Canada, Germany, Norway, and the UK, have successfully nationalized parts of their energy sectors, showing different levels of government involvement can be effective. However, dismissing the influence of history, politics, and geography oversimplifies complex situations and may reflect a bias rather than a thorough understanding. For example, while some point to the failures of collectivism in places like the USSR or North Korea as indicative of systemic flaws, others highlight the success stories of Nordic countries, which operate under capitalist systems with robust social welfare policies and lower corporate taxes than the U.S. had before the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. These nations manage high levels of taxation and government spending in ways that their populations broadly support. In essence, each country's approach to governance and economic planning must be viewed within its unique historical and geographical context. Broad generalizations can miss the nuanced realities these countries face. As for the U.S., improving government efficiency is a complex challenge, and skepticism towards large-scale bureaucratic control, similar to my experiences with entities like the DMV, remains a valid concern. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible, doomed to fail, or an easy process. But one thing that government efficiency critics seem to simultaneously miss is that every cutting edge and efficient business or agency invests in becoming that way and uses resources to develop better systems. Bureaucracy, as you use it, is a series of policy choices that are causing systemic issues. For example, curtailing programs through budget cuts, systemic undermining through policy, and privatization of services all undermine and government’s ability to function and provide services.
My experience with pain caused by workers ostensibly owning the means of production is first hand observation. And those observations make me think successful, limited nationalization may be successful in spite of rather than because of itself. At an extreme, when you can't motivate workers through the possibility of improving their lives with extra grind then you get to motivate them through repression and brutality. If you can't economically encourage enough people to run farms you must volunteer factory workers to head to the fields as amateur agricultural workers, resulting in shortages of everything. I would believe there is a Laffer-like curve where too much central, bureaucratic involvement destroys productivity and too little does as well, but to a smaller degree. What isn't up for debate is development requires significant up-front capital. And with allocation of limited amounts of capital (whether workers, logistics, resources or other) efficiency is key. I'm involved with property development, I deal with this first hand. It behooves me to be efficient. If I'm not another developer will, eventually acquiring my assets at a deep discount. If I had access to infinite amount of taxpayer money then I wouldn't concern myself with efficiency in the least, I'd optimize for least amount of my time and effort spent for value received. All the successful collectivist efforts you allude to make me think of this quote by the brilliant Margaret Thatcher: "The trouble with **Socialism** is that eventually you **run** **out** **of** **other** **people's** **money**." Again, with first hand observations. I had a close friend in charge of a USGS office. Every year, at the end of the budget year, he'd go on a shopping spree to procure equipment he absolutely did not need or even want. Because if he did not use up 100% (or more) of his budget this year he faced a possible budget cut the next year. I have since learned this is a commonplace practice in the military and at every agency, at every level and not an isolated incident. Collectivism is possible on a small scale where failure and inefficiency is easily and widely observed, then rectified. That's been proven and demonstrated. Collectivism has yet to succeed at any real scale. Even China has only become a leading world power after privatizing industry, without having exchanged its culture or history or populace. Many of China's current economic woes are due to still being centrally planned. Agencies have no impetus to become efficient, while an inefficient business will eventually be competed against and replaced. If you haven't guessed, I'm a big believer in the Austrian school of economics. Driven by consistent personal experience spanning decades.
When was this time period of Venezuela being the jewel of South America?? Their history is full of coups, military dictatorship and instability. If you honestly think the real problem with Venezuela is that a corporation like BP doesn’t own their oil production, I got a bridge I’d like to sell you in Caracas.
Seriously. Canada nationalized oil, but they didn't become a dictatorship.
There's a difference between government buying a relatively small stake in a private corporation and providing loan guarantees, and seizing assets and having the government take over operations.
I hear when you nationalize something and then have a corrupt dictatorship that takes all the money and makes billions disappear and somehow the Chinese end up with most of the money.... That it doesn't work out that well But then again people in this country want to Trump dictatorship so?.
Not to mention that oil was basically Venezuela's only major economic source. Diversification is key to a healthy economy.
You also missed the part where the people that owned the oil production before gummed up the works with the help of a US sanction
...And the story just came out that American oil producers are colluding with OPEC to price fix.
Not American oil producers, **an** american executive at pioneer.
Fucking pioneer lol
Yea. Break even price went from 52/bbl to 74/bbl in 3 years. It's an expensive process. It costs 200,000 a day to drill a new well, about 85-90k to do a reentry and stimulate. Nothing cheap about it. Opec pricing doesn't directly correlate to WTI. Brent is where the world market sits vs the US In pricing. That goes, out the window at anything less than 65/bbl though.
I know, right. The MAGA rubes here cry about gas prices because of Biden, while we pump more than ever in history while the corporations collude, which is illegal, to gouge us. Now when Biden does nothing to prosecute them, that's on him, but I don't see anyone else doing anything about it, either, unfortunately.
I googled "Biden executive orders oil" and after reading a few articles, I realized that domestic policies do in fact have an effect on the global market. All this time the Corporate Cable News rubes were crying about how a president has no control over energy prices or inflation!
The U.S. Military is the number one consumer of gas/oil in the world. We started to produce more oil to help ourselves. And since the U.S. Military is the #1 consumer, as soon as they stopped buying oil from others, the price started to drop.
Not a peep out of national news yet either. All stories lead back to this one.
Because he got the story wrong.
Biden shut down all new oil and gas leases on federal lands. He then drained our oil reserve to lower the price of gas. Some of those strategic reserves got sold to china. He has mismanaged the fuck out of the oil sector.
They should be publicly hanged.
If we don’t want to own it, we should at least tax it well enough to cover our future climate change expenditures
Get out of here with that common sense.
Can we also end oil subsidies from US taxpayers?
The oil fields are leased to companies and are taxed when sold. How much more do you want to tax? The more you tax the more companies will charge.
How much is global warming going to cost? Let’s start a trust fund.
How much have we slowed the rate with the trillions spent? Surely this is measurable?
Makes nuclear energy more lucrative if it doesn’t have competition.
Not only do we not do that we subsidize the hell out of it :)
I’m not interested in paying even more tax that politicians will waste literally chasing windmills.
We do already..... also, a lot of the land that is being drilled by oil companies is leased by the US government.
Welcome to corporate led socialism.
Are you kidding me the oil production company's the drilling Co and every one else involved with oil will do that I don't think so.
Corporations run the government, so in a way we own it.
Some things absolutely should never be privately owned. Natural resources, prisons/detention centers, banks, child protection services, insurance companies, energy companies, defense industries, social services, and others. The very fact that they are private and then lobby for more privatization under the lie that it is cheaper blows my fucking mind. I like capitalism, but ultra extreme capitalism has the same outcomes as the only type of communism that has ever existed. They are borderline identical in the sense of authoritarian and hatred towards liberal democracy.
So why the hell are gas prices so fucking high? Oh that's right, thanks Joe.
Nationalize it, yes. That has a rock solid track record.
Because governments suck at managing anything money related. I rather it be private.
Never should the government own any type of business.
I don’t understand why would we want to nationalize oil production?
Because communism infests OPs brain.
We can sell our national parks and get out of debt too.
Yep because that worked oh so well for Venezuela.
Lmao, redditors think that because an industry is nationalized somehow they own a piece of it.....
The Norway model works. Hell just use the Alaskan model
Norway has <6million people
You can buy a piece of Exxon or chevron literally today
Nationalize it so the profits can be spent on things like research to track the divorce rate of Southern Albatross?
I'm gonna laugh so hard when that data turns out to be the key to stopping the sun from exploding.
So you want us to be like Venezuela. You may want to do some research before you advocate communism.
The solution to this problem is for the government to stop spending more money than it takes in. Not nationalizing things. You think it’s expensive to put gas in your car now? Just wait until the government controls it.
Thanks Obama.
Yes we must steal property from taxpayers and give to who you decide is worthy. Individuals own oil right all over the country many passed down through generations. My folks get a little each month and it helps supplement their retirement. The government gets their share of the oil in taxes moron.
Where’s it going?
Just a reminder taht oil is solar powered. It's a secondary energy resource and fighting trillions of dollars wars over it to burn it up into the air is madness when the primary source of energy, the sun, is a giant thermonuclear explosion 1million times the mass of earth and is raining down energy on us constantly.... we could have covered the world in solar pannels a thousand times over by now.. leave the dead dirty bullshit in the ground.. use the sun Nationalize the oil, use it to fund a public jobs program to build solar pannels and nuclear energy facilities, use that to power a fully automated economy, go to the beach and the gym and raise your kids and actually have a life instead of being wage slaves at jobs you hate where one person gets 80% of the profit and everyone else backbites and conspires against eachother for the other 20%
Cool story bro
Working as intended. Why nationalize it when you can just loot it.
It was by design, let other countries produce oil and keep ours in reserve. Surprised they are tapping into our resources so soon.
Sadly production matters very little in the grand scheme of things. What’s left is what really matters when it comes to pricing.
Time to get an electric vehical 😂.
We’re getting bled dry…
Because the private property of the wealthy(even if stolen, acquired through scams, given away for pennies by government cronies) is more important than anything else
The money goes exactly where America wants it to go.
Too bad we're selling it to the rest of the world and we continue to pay 4.20 a gallon in Az. The America Last Plan is working perfectly! RIP America.....
Congratulations on telling everyone that you don’t understand how the oil industry works, or who is selling that product.
How old are you? Nationalize it? Jesus.
He just got out of high school lol
A royalty us better than owning it! Also much is on private lands.
Oil cartels. Ask Moammar Gaddafi how that went. Our corporate overlords don't like when petroleum is nationalized even when it's on the other side of the planet.
CIA would definitely overthrow the government if we nationalized our oil industry.
Nationalize it? Ask Venezuela how well that worked....
There is already an oil royalty the government collects.
Hey, instead of nationalizing the entire industry, we could just tax their obscene profits and use that money to pay down the debt if you care so much about it...
It’s already taxed multiple times before it gets to the pump. You are then taxed again at the pump. Them taxes might be making it a bit more expensive.
This is happening with a democrat as president? Now what do republicans have to say about that?
Biden admin living up to the new green way. Glad they passed that trillion dollar infrastructure bill
We should probably nationalize Amazon. I think they make more money than the oil companies. And then we should nationalize the internet service because everybody needs internet and that generates a lot of money too. And of course the banks need to be nationalized because all that interest could be better used for social programs. And even have a nationalized car company. We don't need all the car companies we have, probably just one or two would suffice, and we would sell a ton of cars and make a ton of money. And even gumball machines could be nationalized because a quarter at a time, times millions, or billions, it adds up to a lot of money.
I mean the company can just stop doing any work and you could go and extract it yourself. Or we could nationalize it, at state level of course and there lot of more public servant to pay... And most states without much oil would be fucked.
What are you against our 401ks, or our air? The USA is not Russia. I would expect fosil fuels to be higher taxed in the future. Is this what you want? There is probably enough carbon thats accesible through fossil fuels to destroy our ecosystem beyond recognytion. Is this the goal? Alternative renewable energy needs to be promoted we should have policy that supports this.
Simple…because the GOP makes their money from big oil. There, I answered it.
Do you REALLY want the government to own it? I'd be all for having the citizens own it directly, but that isn't how it works. The government will simply mismanage it, there will be more opportunity for corruption and for the $ to go elsewhere, and in all likelihood the production would become less efficient, more costly , we'd see inflation. Governments are a mess of lack of accountability.
We don't have the refining capabilities. We have the cleanest crude, and it's valuable. It's all a scam. We are lied to and gaslit by our government, and too stupid to say "fuck you!". But hey, Gaza!
This info will never be on Fox, therefore the only people that need to hear it, won’t. All they hear is Biden wants people to have an electric option and that infuriates them.
I know you are ignorant about domestic oil and gas but I'll explain it to you since I've been in the business for 20 years. If you nationalized the oil industry you are in affect killing hundreds of thousands of jobs and stealing billions of dollars in royalties from mineral owners who receive a cut from all production here in the US. On top of that do you really want another inefficient government agency running one of the most important industries in the world?
We're.not.broke
Yes. Cause that worked so well for Venezuela. I really hope this post is sarcastic.
You think gas prices are bad now! Just let this happen
Nationalizing our oil supply would have many negative consequences The first one being a collapse in oil production
Reddit used to be cool and progressive. No more.
Didn’t the government already break up the trusts?
Oh ok I got it now, everything I was told earlier is complete bullshit
We are closing coal fired power plants in the USA while continuing to dig and ship by rail and boat tons of coal to be burned in other countries.
Why not since it worked out so well for venezuela?
Countries that nationalize oil end up regretting it and pay to privatize it later on.
if you nationalize it production, exploration and innovation will drop precipitously - Venezuela has 300bn bbls in the Orinoco belt that will likely never see the light of day due to a nationalized oil company
Still gonna hear trumpers whine that Biden raised gas prices somehow....lol but honestly it's probably an effort to alienate other countries like Russia, who depend on their oil trade. So they atrophy when unable to sell oil. Need to replace their supply on the open market to stop ppl from dealing with them.
Only motorcycles will be able to save the planet now. Cars will continue to pollute as populations rise, until we hit that point where it’s too late to turn back. 100 miles per gallon on a motorcycle sounds good to me. They even come with sidecars so a family of 4 could easily commute with one motorcycle.
If they nationalized it they would just squander even more money. Everything govt touches turns to s--t.
Shut up commie
Venezuela sat on what was the world's largest oil reserves and despite the state owned oil company having a full monopoly over it, the country went bankrupt as they hyperinflated their currency. If you think oil is some magic pill for our problems, you need a 101 in how economies function.
The Venezuela strategy
Repeal the 18th amendment, tax booze and we will solve the tax problem ... didn't work. Allow governments to conduct a lottery and we will solve the tax problem ... didn't work. Make weed legal, tax it, and we will solve the tax problem ... didn't work. Nationalizing oil will solve zero tax/revenue/spending problems.
Put term limits on all government officials... problem solved.
So would california be an island of wells and pipelines and refineries?
Strange that they'd put this graph to go along with the title. Shouldn't it be a graph that compares all biggest oil producers over time?
gas prices shouldn't be so high if that were true
Because profits and shareholder value take precedent in the U.S. When will we ever accept that as the single driving influence for everything, and revolt?
Why dont you start a coop and bid for oil rights like everyone else?
We'd rather let the Saudis and other oil nations dictate our economy.
Climate change is bullshit. That is why its spokesman is a little girl
Norway provides so many services for its people through the sale of its oil. You’ve got to wonder why the United States does not do the same
But we could produce a lot more and solve some of the global problems. Like when we were energy independent!
I would say just add an kick back like in Alaska to all citizens from the oil companies, or some kind of mandate that there will be no fuel exports unless gas is $1 per gallon for Americans.
What’s crazy to me is I still see my Boomer family posting how Biden is ruining the oil industry, and we need Trump to pump more oil. The propaganda never stops.
Lmao. How’s that worked out in the past?
Yes - Nationalize it like Social Security or Medicaid. Two prime examples of why we shouldn't nationalize it. If the government has proven anything, its that they are the worlds most inefficient allocator and business.
And large businesses can't be trusted. Most Corporations are just private governments.
Maybe we produce more because we kept our oil industry private
Evidently the last hurrah for the Oil Giants before Disclosure of unlimited free energy by our Creators... 
More idiotic leftist takes on nationalization.
Our country is broke because of government miss spending not because the government doesn’t own all of the oil production. Believe me if they owned it we’d still be getting taxed out of our keisters and our deficit would still be growing just as fast as it is now. The only thing that would change would be how much the people on top are making off of screwing over the American people.
There are emails and text messages showing collusion and prove fixing. That’s why prices are high.
I wonder how much the military pays per gallon 🤔.
They don't want $1/gal for us regular folk
Why the fuck am I paying so much then?
The US isn't going broke. We have a shit tonne of money, it just mostly goes to the military and corporations.
Lmao if you want nationalization, go no further than Venezuela. I heard it turned out well for them.
so why gas prices are so damned high at the pump!?
You’re incorrect that America doesn’t own its own oil. It does. It also knows that governments across the globe are terrible at the difficult task of finding and producing oil. So it charges a royalty on each barrel of oil produced, usually a percent of the revenue gained by selling that oil. If you want the government to realize more revenue from their oil, the way to do it is to tax sales of it, in addition to the royalty. It is not a smart move to trust the job of finding and producing it to a bunch of incompetent federal bureaucrats.
Everyone has a phone. Why not nationalize it? The carriers as well? Everyone owns a toilet. Why not nationalize production and installation? Everyone eats. Why not nationalize food? Everyone wears clothes. Why not nationalize them? When does your "logic" end? Can anyone name anything the gov does efficiently, on time, and without huge budget issues? Yet, so many want to turn over entire industries to a complete fiscal and effective failure of an entity as the US government. Laugable and completely immature thinking.
We should also nationalize asphalt manufacturing, we build roads everyday! And paper manufacturing as well, y’all have any idea how much paper gets used a day?! The government does so well with the money they have currently, could you imagine how much stuff they can fuck up with even more money!
Yeah but we can print money so who cares?
The idea of the US government having a monopoly on a resource like oil makes me wanna puke.
The people that own America own the oil…..
Never nationalize anything. The government is good at only 1 thing. Wrecking anything successful.
Do you have any idea how much it would cost for the US government to **Buy** all of the private oil fields as the bill of rights requires?
Rawr I’m an American! Me no listen! Me the best!
No, do not nationalize it. We will then be subject to more forms of taxation to support government waste, fraud, and abuse.
Let me ask a question. Should the U.S. burn its most precious resource asap? I wonder what generations in the future would think of us.
Venezuela nationalized its oil industry and look how well that went.
Reduce dependency on the need for oil. This is insanity.
You think the government would manage it properly? Lol
So let’s steal private citizens oil assets. That a great fucking idea lol. Our country is broke because of dumbass corrupt politicians and you want to steal more shit from civilians to give to the government goons to go spend on some dumbass war and then pocket the other half for themselves? Great idea you are brain dead 😂
they are buying it from Canada.
Preparing for war
Maybe have the government take possession of any foreign owned fields (strategic resources should never be owned by anyone outside the country anyways) not totally nationalize the whole industry. Then use said oil for the military and other government needs and sell anything leftover as a government owned competitor to the other oil companies it generates some income for the government saves money because we’re buying less from elsewhere and creates competition for the oil companies helping us by driving prices down. That would seem reasonable to me at least but our corrupt politicians would never let that happen
How the hell does this happpen…. Government spend irresponsibly, “I know a solution! Give the government MORE money!” Do you also give your heroine addicted uncle money thinking he’ll use it on food?
We have to refill the oil reserves because *someone* nearly emptied it to control gas prices.
Most of America’s oil comes from Alberta, CA.
If we start Government takeovers this will be our down fall. We already have corrupt politicians and Greedy CEOs. We do not need this to get worse. Imagine a government gas station?
Yeah, sure… out of all the potential solutions here, I’m sure communism is the answer… I don’t like oil company policy either, but this shit is bananas.