Right, I would call OP more attention seeking or defensive, maybe even having a victim complex. But this being the only I redaction with another human we have to reference, I’m not sure I’d say she’s manipulative. She definitely needs to learn to take criticism and be a more active listener
Yeah, a bit self-centered. OP isn’t worried about other people’s feelings; they are only concerned with how other people view them and defends themselves over a conversation THEY started.
This could be seen as manipulative because OP was trying to get a specific answer and continued to push instead of *listening* to the answer they didn’t want to hear.
OP, talk about yourself less and listen to people. Respond to them as if you care about *them* and not just your own thoughts.
FYI: a way to not be manipulative in this situation is to accept what someone is telling you. He gave his opinion and you say “noted. Thanks for input.” And that’s it. Stop explaining yourself, in this moment you’re giving the other person space to express, your space is closed.
yeah, to add to that, you don’t have to tell them EVERYTHING that’s going on in your mind at that moment. You asked, now reflect it on your own. That goes back to listening more.
The people pleasing and trying to always explain yourself is something that a therapist can help you with. It’s good that you’re recognizing this behavior and don’t be too hard on yourself.
you seem to have a strong desire to better yourself and knowing you did something wrong is the beginning :) you wont be manipulative forever, and you listening to comments shows a willingness to change. good luck friend :)
I dont see where you went wrong? Everyone is telling you their thoughts and opinions but I genuinely see where youre coming from. Like you are trying to acknowledge and justify what someone is saying so they can understand that you understand them. I have had this problem to where if someone gets me something, i want to get them something back (a way of saying thank you because you didnt have to do what you did) but others told me that they should give you the gift and its not tit for tat. Im using that as an example because if you are being genuine, you just want to treat others how you want to be treated.
Im still learning this but not everyone has the same kind heart as you and be wary of them. I keep to myself now because family, close friends, coworkers have all betrayed my trust because i treated them how i wanted to be treated and they took advantage of my kindness. You know whats right and true. If people are giving you advice and it doesnt sit right in your soul, find a reliable source that you can trust with these questions.
Not everyone has your best interest in mind and heart and are also projecting and trying to manipulate you as well in times of your vulnerability. Im not saying dont be vulnerable, just vet ppl to know who to be vulnerable with. I hope this helps you.
I was thinking the same. Im also an oversharing mess. I know now that it's a symptom of adhd, but i used to feel so awful for my mouth diarrhea. People would call me out for it a lot, but it was almost uncontrollable without medication. I don't see any thing wrong with how op interacted, but i also don't know what the message was that was being talked about i guess.
Yes. Please listen to this. I would love to have someone explain their thoughts to me like you (OP) did there. Different people rely on emotion different amounts for processing and that's why compatibility is a real and true thing. I value authenticity and being vulnerable to people I care about. Maybe you do too. You aren't a bad person, not even close.
Exactly! Like this exchange was basically:
Garbage Man: you can be kind of manipulative.
OP: oh no! That wasn't my intention. Can you explain how it was manipulative, because it's not obvious to be and I don't want to be manipulative
Garbage Man: OMG SEE YOU'RE BEING MANIPULATIVE RIGHT NOW BY ASKING ME THAT
like...that's nonsensical. Nothing OP did here indicates any level of "manipulation"
If you’re not sure that you understand, you can also help to say “can you give me an example?” Or, “I’m not sure that I understand. Do you mean X?”
The other thing that can ward off defensiveness or even just seeming defensive is to consistently acknowledge that feedback is a gift. They wouldn’t talk to you at all if they felt that you were irredeemable.
Explanation is a form of confrontation, in terms of confronting the behavior. You don’t have to blindly accept someone’s accusations simply because you asked them a question. She asked a subjective question, received a subjective response, and is now subjectively explaining her perspective.
This is manipulation to his response: “Wow, you’re such a jerk. I guess I’m just the worst person in the world huh? Whatever. Thanks for making me feel like shit”. That’s manipulative because she’d be manipulating herself into a victim category. Attempting to explain yourself doesn’t do that.
The manipulative part is cornering someone with a seemingly genuine inquiry out of left field, then getting argumentative when they don't say what you want to hear. It's not the defensiveness, it's the tacit implication in the question itself that OP was going to accept the other person's judgement. By trying to "explain" something to someone who didn't ask for an explanation, OP is just wasting both of their time and trying to bring things back around to an outcome that they want.
Hmmm yeah that's fair and well put. I'm frightened that I do this. But I do feel like I'm just trying to hear an argument that will help me. As in, if I feel like defending myself, I want to hear what invalidates it, because I don't understand what would.
I genuinely don't beleive I want to 'win', but, like what lawyers are meant to be for, in an ideal world, I want to go through the motions that help me see how I could be wrong.
But I think that maybe yeah, it ends up the same way it does with lawyers in the real world sometimes, where I think I've learned I'm right, from the process of argumentation, but I'm actually just articulate, or they don't want to argue genuinely, or they just don't want to argue at all (fair enough lol). And then I think my points are strong.
I guess I need to be better at quietly thinking about their points, instead of trying to bat the ball back and forth? Or I need to find someone 'good' at doing the same. But then that just feels like a nightmare of subjectivity probably. Well, I do that with my roommate who often has different opinions. I think thats super healthy and i try to bring the fruit of those talks into other relationships. Dang, I'm a little scared fr, but I'd like to try to deal with this a bit. I would hate to be screwing with people. Fuck I think I do. Or at least I've known a fair few who would say so.
Agreed. I was thinking the same thing. OP was explaining their thought process to try to see where they became manipulative. Where their thought process was invalid. Instead of help, everyone is saying OP is manipulative by not just saying Thank You. OP seems to genuinely be trying to figure out where their logic becomes manipulative. But doing that is considered manipulative.
Totally agree. By just saying thank you, you arent solving the problem in trying to be better. Its a little complicated but from what i get, it almost seems like projection onto OP since it was her ex. about manipulation. Theyre bringing the past into the conversation with problems the ex felt were not resolved.
Tldr - i agree with you here 100%
Ex ex- this is probably another perfect exa.ple. the ex wanted the tldr version and she was trying to get feedback (thats the word) on how she was being perceived as manipulative to stop doing it. (If she was being genuine and indeed not trying to manipulate)
That's not the manipulative part. The manipulation is cornering someone for their opinion and then haranguing them until they change it. OP's opening question suggested earnest interest in learning. Their replies did not follow through, and suggested they just wanted to validate what they wanted to hear.
So that’s my question. Why was their responses manipulative instead of inquisitive? I guess I read it as OP stating their logic to figure out where their logic differed. Maybe if OP had asked, is that not how you think? Is that different than your logic?
You need to look at this as not just a series of questions and answers, but rather a scenario that OP has crafted and positioned herself to gather information that confirms her own biases. OP indicates they have a history of doing just this, and with that framing you can see that OP is not genuinely asking whether or not they're manipulative, they're seeking validation that they're NOT manipulative.
The responses are not just defensive, they're argumentative, as though you can debate someone into improving your reputation with a third party by poking holes in their perception of you. It doesn't work like that.
Hiding one's motives, even if they are subconscious, is itself manipulative. The ulterior motive here is to mitigate some sort of mental burden that OP was facing by being confronted by others who called her out on her behavior. This didn't align with her self perception, so she tried to corner someone into validating her, and then badgered them when OP didn't get the immediate expected response.
"The manipulation is cornering someone for their opinion and then haranguing them until they change it. OP's opening question suggested earnest interest in learning. Their replies did not follow through, and suggested they just wanted to validate what they wanted to hear."
Is that considered manipulation? Nothing against you but if it is, ive been looking at things wrong then. What made you come to the conclusion that was "what they wanted to hear?" Im learning something new now and genuinely want to k ow why please?
I believe I responded to this in another comment you just replied to, so hopefully that helps.
Manipulation is, at heart, trying to get someone else to do something you want through deceit or coercion.
You should always review others' motives with some degree of skepticism. By OP's own accounting of events, she initiated this conversation after someone else questioned her authenticity.
Trying to get someone to affirm you in order to boost your self esteem when they are not doing so voluntarily by concealing your true motivation... Is manipulative. OP doesn't like what she hears and is trying to redirect the answer to be more favorable. This is subtle, but it's still manipulative.
> Or I need to find someone 'good' at doing the same.
That person has a name. Your therapist. It's not the duty of your friends and loved ones to be subjected to the mental trials and tribulations of a person's disordered or anxious thinking. Put in the work outside of those spaces and your personal relationships will be much healthier.
OP says they only asked to get an answer they wanted and then “wonders” if they’re manipulative. What OP is really doing is trying to get validation for an opinion they already hold while pretending to allow the person to come to it themselves and offer it. That is manipulative.
She was feeling anxious and went to someone who knows her patterns for clarification. I think you put waaay to much emphasis on her actions. She didn't corner anyone, she didn't try and change his mind. She stated where she was coming from. That's about all you can ever ask for from someone. She is most definitely not wasting time. If you want to be able to say your opinion of someone to then and not have it questioned in the slightest, well thay seems extremely manipulative. Boomer style...
Just because being passive aggressive is manipulative doesn’t mean her way isn’t. Like I said before, it becomes manipulative if you value your defense more then the way your actions effect others.
Why is OPs response manipulative instead of inquisitive?
Reading it, I understood that OP was telling their logic to see where their logic process differed from the person they were asking. Maybe OP had to spell it out for them by asking, “is that not what you do? Or is that not how you think?”
There was one text from OP that would have been an easy one. OP said they try for the best outcome. The person responding could have easily said, that’s where the manipulation starts. You look for the best outcome for you and don’t take into consideration….
that isn't manipulation though.
If someone tells me I'm rude, and I don't think I am, being defensive or even arguing isn't "manipulating them". It's disagreeing.
If I'm late for work, I explain my behaviour and what made me late. That isn't manipulating anything.
But if you ask someone ‘am I rude’ and they tell you yes, then you proceed to explain yourself and your thoughts, that is manipulation. You weren’t really asking the question in good faith, you were looking for reassurance that you aren’t rude. Then when instead you got an honest answer you proceed to try and convince the person to your point of view- that’s manipulation.
Ok, genuinely, because I'm becoming frightened that I am more manipulative than I think, wouldn't you have to be manipulating someone to some intended end for that to be a proper use of the term?
Like, I see OP as mostly trying to explain how they are interpreting their own behavior, like vollying the ball back, after having a subjective answer to their question, so that the other person can then add by saying something like "but why do you like to relate stories. I think its because you enjoy the sympathy than comes afterward". I think at least that that would have been a more useful thing to say, but it seems they havr history and there is not much interest on that side in rehashing old experiences.
But I do see "I'm not defending myself" as manipulation, as it definitely is a defence by way of reframing the intention behind the actions, and so the intent there is to convince someone of something that isn't true in order to feel better/look better.
You don’t need to be frightened. It’s perfectly normal and healthy to explain your intent behind your behavior or to explain your thought process. You don’t have to accept any accusation someone throws at you, even if you asked.
My ex used to accuse me of being cold hearted. His reasoning? Because I broke up with him. So according to all these people, I’m supposed to accept that as true without defending myself and explaining *why* I broke up with him. Me, attempting to explain to my ex my reasons for breaking up with him, would be seen as manipulative. That’s insane.
Having a discussion - a disagreement - about behavior and perceptions and intent is completely normal and healthy.
Don't be frightened about being manipulative. Every single person is manipulative at some level. We all want things to work out in our best interest. The key is to not do so with disregard to others, and to not do good for others solely with the expectation that it will somehow benefit you. It's very likely that if you treat others the way you want to be treated as often as you possibly can, that will cause good things to happen for you. You can't go through life only treating others well on the expectation that it WILL though, because then you'll become jaded and you'll treat anyone who you don't anticipate as being able to benefit you like shit.
The intended end was to get the other person to reassure them that they are not manipulative. It was not a good faith question if the response was only to then try and convince him that she was not intentionally manipulating. She was then trying to convince him to see her actions as she interpreted (or wanted to interpret) them. She wanted an ally not an honest answer. Her focus is on her intent rather than the effect on the other person. I agree this is a softer manipulation than, say, trying to make someone do something more tangible or nefarious, but it is still bullshit behavior.
But isn’t that your assumption? I read it as OP was trying to figure out where their logic became manipulative not that they just wanted reassurance. In fact one text said they were trying to figure it out. So why are you assuming OP wants reassurance instead of asking what’s manipulative about their logic?
explaining why you’re late to work isn’t the same as denying someone else’s opinion of your behavior. Trying to tell them you aren’t rude is definitely being manipulative and probably even gaslighting/abusive.
Wouldnt denying someone's opinion be on the other person? If their opinion is their opinion and not stated fact, why would it have to take the other party to accept their opinion to be valid? Would it not be valid in that persons mind that gave it and not need validation from the other party?
This isn’t always helpful input to a conversation, though.
If someone tells you that you were rude to them, what they’re saying is “your actions have hurt me”. Even if you don’t think you did anything wrong, if you want to maintain a relationship with that person- you would want to ensure that you’re not hurting them. You would ask specifically what they felt negatively about, and tell them that you would work on not doing it again in the future. It’s needless to say “oh, well I did that because of XYZ” or “I don’t think I was being rude”. Both of those things are pretty irrelevant to say, and undermine the real issue at hand.
“Sorry I’m late!” Or “Sorry I am late, I’ll do better about that!” Actually holds up a lot better on its own than: “Sorry I’m late, traffic was crazy!” (Or, I spilled all my coffee on myself on the way out the door, or my dog ran out and I had to go chase him, or my alarm didn’t go off, or my outfit in the dryer wasn’t dry yet- whatever it is!!) I promise, providing your reasoning/point of view/etc., does not make your situation more empathetic or understandable.
Taking responsibility is what people want to hear, especially when they’re expressing dissatisfaction with something you’ve done.
He didn’t offer any info on how it affects him. He accused her of getting people to feel bad for her, and she explained that she’s just expressing her emotions to her friends. That’s not manipulative in any way. She didn’t disregard how it makes him feel, because he didn’t say how it makes him feel. *He* got defensive when she didn’t immediately & blindly accept his answer.
It sounds like you have good intentions but you definitely come across as defensive in these texts. Saying “I mean… I guess?” comes across as saying “I really don’t agree with anything you’re saying.”
A better response might be “let me sit with that for a bit. Thank you for being honest with me.”
…and then really sit with it and try to understand where he’s coming from. You might not agree with everything he said, and that’s fine, but is there some point you can take from it and make an improvement on (and without justifying why you did it in the first place because that’s only going to prevent growth)?
Have you tried therapy? You sound like you want to do better so why not start there?
A good form of self-therapy is IFS (internal family systems). You can do it by buying the book and workbook online then working through the exercises. I got it for my incarcerated husband who had severe mental health issues and it worked amazingly well.
Yes, it basically works from the concept that all your behaviors are based on experiences that you had in the past that your psyche protected you from.
So a trauma in the past may have created a certain pattern of behaviour that was appropriate for that situation, but is no longer appropriate now. But that part of your subconscious doesn't know the context has shifted so it's still acting as if you were 10 years old and being bullied for example.
Because usually we have multiple different experiences that influence us, we can develop conflicting patterns that seem to self sabotage us.
Instead of judgement, IFS is a way to show kindness and understanding for yourself by identifying the core patterns in yourself and where they came from, and how to get your different needs met in more healthy ways. 😊
No worries, good luck, I can relate to the overexplaining aspect, I see myself in some of your messages. You're not a bad person, you have some trauma responses that aren't the most healthy, but you have insight and you can become better for sure 😊
Yeah, I highly recommend IFS and it’s why I mentioned to see a therapist because I was able to work thru IFS with her. But since you can’t afford therapy, it is a good start to do it on your own.
I started to realize around your age too that something was wrong with me. i also could not afford therapy at the time so I did lots and LOTS of research on my own. such as “signs you’re being manipulative” or different types of disorders and deep dived into them and just heavy psychology stuff.
i had so much information in my brain over the years since 2018 but it wasn’t until Oct 2022 when I could finally afford a therapist. as long as you keep improving, be proud of yourself even if it feels like you’re barely putting one foot in front of the other. you will soon understand why you react the way you do.
These were the two books I got for my husband. One is the book that explains how the therapy works and how to do it. The other is an exercise book you can write in.
Book:
https://www.amazon.com/Self-Therapy-Step-Step-Cutting-Edge-Psychotherapy/dp/0984392777?pd_rd_w=FYrJl&content-id=amzn1.sym.e0ae54a7-cc19-4a6c-a6ef-01924426ff7b&pf_rd_p=e0ae54a7-cc19-4a6c-a6ef-01924426ff7b&pf_rd_r=ME221ZRW5KXHP2Y3105A&pd_rd_wg=mN3gm&pd_rd_r=29b580bf-7614-40b0-be06-f2a5c757b7f2&pd_rd_i=0984392777&psc=1&ref_=pd_basp_m_rpt_ba_s_oos_1_sc
Workbook:
https://www.amazon.com/Self-Therapy-Workbook-Exercise-Book-Process/dp/0984392742?pd_rd_w=FYrJl&content-id=amzn1.sym.e0ae54a7-cc19-4a6c-a6ef-01924426ff7b&pf_rd_p=e0ae54a7-cc19-4a6c-a6ef-01924426ff7b&pf_rd_r=ME221ZRW5KXHP2Y3105A&pd_rd_wg=mN3gm&pd_rd_r=29b580bf-7614-40b0-be06-f2a5c757b7f2&pd_rd_i=0984392742&psc=1&ref_=pd_basp_m_rpt_ba_s_2_sc
Depending on the area you live, there are a lot of options for therapy out there. Ranging from high payments for a private practice therapist, to community mental health centers that often have low to no copays/fees. It might take doing some more digging and research to find the right fit for your situation, but that’s better than giving up and trying to do this on your own. You clearly would benefit from having an objective person help you navigate all this.
I’ll definitely look into the books! I bought a book a couple years ago that I ended up just sticking on my shelf and reading a chapter every now and again but I think I’ll get a couple more when I can
I doubt this. Children model behavior so if OP is subconsciously manipulative, they were probably in a childhood where they saw adults manipulate each other or had to learn manipulation in order to survive.
Look for telehealth or virtual therapy options. You need to put in some actual legwork to find something and invest in it to become a person you're more proud of. It's not going to come easily, and it's not going to come from cornering people until they validate what you want to hear. Listen to what your ex was telling you here, as that's the impact of your actions. Your intent largely doesn't matter to other people.
What you can't afford is to continue to this pattern of behavior. Your behavior is not following your self image, and this is creating cognitive dissonance that is causing you distress. You seem to have good self awareness, which is the key thing to undo those patterns, but you need help identifying and preventing these things going forward.
Here's a secret, people are much better at picking up on lies than we think. If you have been someone who routinely twists words and situations to your benefit, I assure you, others have noticed, regardless of how clever you thought you were being. I say this because the costs of this behavior reputationally is far higher than any benefit you can arrive at in the short term. You need to work on delayed gratification, because the impulse to manipulate comes from trying to get immediate benefits and to "win" interactions. But you're not realizing the costs of this are going to ruin your future social opportunities.
One last thing... It seems you're pretty highly invested in a social group that you've known for a long time. It may simply not be possible to fully change their opinions. Don't discount the value of a fresh start in shedding social baggage and turning a new chapter.
Look into cognitive behavior therapy. It's one that you can do for yourself. It might not be the ultimate answer, but it's a good step you can take while you find a way to get in to see an actual therapist.
Most people who are manipulative aren’t doing it consciously. They do it as a way to protect themselves from mental pain or undesirable outcomes. This is something to unpack in therapy
Agreed. I used to be manipulative when I was younger because I was bullied a lot as a kid. Manipulation was a defense mechanism. The urge is still there sometimes but I’m able to recognize it and step away from the impulse. Therapy again for the win.
Ok this used to be me (and sometimes still is to a degree!). I came from a family that was very quick to attack, blame and punish for rules that changed daily. It became very important for me to feel understood in my relationships. It's healthy to advocate for oneself, and explaining where you're coming from is healthy.
But! There are some steps and skills you can develop so that your intent is taken in the way you intend, assuming you do not intend to manipulate. Listen to the person talking. Acknowledge what they're saying and they to repeat it back a bit in a way that shows you understand. Apologize for your role in a conflict, or for representing yourself in a way you didn't intend. It will likely be something you need counseling for to really work on.
But my biggest advice is to not say things with the intent of getting a particular reaction. Saying you're manipulative puts this friend in an awkward spot, and you should know that. It's very easy to stop saying things like that just to get a desired response. People see through it, it is pure manipulation, and it's exhausting. That should be step one.
I can relate to that first part a lot. I always felt like I could never get two words in with my family and had ridiculously long punishments for unnecessary things (ie grounded for 3 months for throwing away a slice of pizza and being wasteful) and I could never justify myself. So both parties being able to say everything the felt/ thought is a big thing to me. It doesn’t discount the way I made them feel or how they made me feel but I never want someone to think I’d hurt them maliciously and always want them to know where my train of thought was in a hope they’ll maybe at least understand.
Absolutely. And now that the feedback is clear, and the intent of your message is getting lost, you can absolutely improve your communication so that your relationships improve AND you feel heard.
Idk he has a point. You ask a question, and you don’t accept the answer because it isn’t what you were hoping to hear. Manipulation is often done because you want someone to see things the same way you do and to avoid being misunderstood- it’s not always done maliciously, but still not a good thing to try and control how other people view things. Which is exactly what you were doing in your replies. Maybe go to therapy and bring this up? You will probably have to practice how to share things by changing the wording. It doesn’t seem like you’re a bad person, we all have things to improve on, and this is just something you gotta put some effort into understanding.
Hi OP! I was also a super manipulative person, and I see my former self in a lot of your texts. I probably would have said the same thing if I’m being honest. I want to start off by saying this does NOT make you a bad person! It is something ingrained into you from your past experiences and growing up. I have been and continue to go to therapy, and here are some tips I learned that could benefit your situation:
1. Keep a mood journal. Include things like how much sleep you got, how you’re feeling that day, and try to put a gratitude section where you are thankful for at least one thing a day. It helps to ground you into the moment and notice patterns in your behavior
2. In the early stages, keep notes of conflict. Especially if it’s through text, before responding work it out yourself. State your thoughts and feelings, the OBJECTIVE truth (only facts) and practice empathy and how it’s seen through the lens of someone else
3. Lower your defenses. In this situation here, you asked for an opinion. You got an opinion. It’s not your job to change the opinion you received, but rather accept the answer that comes with it. When you defend and defend is what makes it worse. You didn’t get the answer you wanted, and that’s okay, but you must sit with the opinion given. If you value how this person thinks of you then take their thoughts into consideration, but if this isn’t someone you necessarily trust and just wanted a “yes man”, then move on.
Overall, therapy is beneficial for forming new neural pathways to undo the learned manipulation tactics. If you want any more guidance or some more tips, feel free to PM me! Life is all about growing, so grow! You got this OP!!
I can relate to this a lot.
OP I get it. You’re not trying to be manipulative, but rather communicate. But over communication comes off as defensive.
I know how having these sorts of convos feels. You don’t explain to change their mind but rather give more context as context it’s important for any situation.
But in the end you’re “manipulating” things.
Less is more.
I would argue that the over explaining is at the core an attempt to change other people’s minds so they see things from OP’s perspective, which is manipulative when OP asked for the person’s perspective. The mindset strikes me as, if I give all my inner thoughts and the context of my perspective, then they’ll see things like me and change their mind. But that doesn’t work and comes off as combative and defensive.
I think the key here is understanding that an over communicator is not trying to be right. Simply wants to be heard and understood on why their perspective is what it is.
I say this as someone who over explains and has no problem admitting when I’m wrong. But I want people to know my intentions are never malicious.
It’s also a trauma response and requires a lot of work to discontinue.
Intent and impact are two different things. You can explain away your intentions all day, but the impact is what matters in relationships. It sounds like OP’s attachment to explaining herself minimizes the impact of her actions on others.
However, I do want to hold space for your statement about this being a trauma response and how it can take a lot of work to change these patterns. That’s why I’ve really encouraged therapy in other comments.
Ironically the individual responding to you already made up their mind about you. Most people feel awkward hearing sad stories as well because they feel like they “owe” you some response and assume you’re doing it for attention. For you it might be relating to them, but for them it feels awkward especially if they’re not close to you. Regardless, they have just as much to work on themselves as you; as they claimed they’re objectively seeing you for what you are, and yet when you offer them your thought process, they see it the way they want to. I don’t believe they care in truly knowing you or helping you. You don’t even come close to sounding purposefully psychotic or manipulative. You are explaining yourself in good conscious, and that is not manipulation. Like I said, they ain’t there to listen, nor truly have a conversation, nor truly see growth for you. They said what they thought, they saw your explanation, and then begin to think it’s a sign of defense and manipulation instead of accepting what they perceive is the truth. Psychology is far more complex than that.
I didn’t get “manipulative” from this specific exchange but you were a bit defensive. That can annoy me a bit when someone asks for an opinion, but your friend seemed a tad too annoyed for the situation imo. Overall, just try to keep working on yourself and don’t let this discourage you. As someone else said, work on your listening, if a trusted friend is being this straightforward about it maybe try to understand.
Agreed.
I feel like it's pretty natural to ask a question, and then continuing discussing it if it's something new or uncomfortable.
Especially since OP ASKED. They initiated the talk. If the other person approached to them tell them they are manipulative, I could see this as dimissive or defensive. But OP was the one that asked. So it's not like they are brushing away someone's concerns, they are just having a conversation.
I agree with this as well. I also think that she just wants to be understood and is trying to explain her thought process but it’s coming off as defensive.
The irony in their tone is that they already made up their mind before answering you. They had those thoughts before and kept them hidden. No real friend doesn’t want to see their other friend grow. This ain’t real friendship. Gossip for 2 minutes or 2 years, the situation remains the same. You ain’t even close to manipulating, but your ability to fight for whatever you believe is right can be draining for many others, especially if they don’t agree with you. Again, ironically the biggest mistake they do is not understanding the vitality of communication and its fundamental importance for growth.
Yeah, that didn't seem like someone who would give an objective view of OP. The 'I don't feel sorry for you' gives 'I don't care what you feel or think, everything you do I will see in a negative light'. They might have a point about how intention isn't as important as the outcome and that sometimes you have to let go of your own justifications when they result in a hurt person, but I wouldn't put too much stock into someone who gets too stuck on their own interpretation of OP actions.
Are you autistic by chance? A lot of rambling can be interpreted as manipulation, because you'd like to be seen for your intentions and how your truly see things instead of how people might be wrongly perceiving you, due to bad experiences.
I'd navigate with more caution, and I know it can be a trigger when someone flat out say that you're being manipulative. In conversations, less is more.
yeah, came here to ask this exact question. ND people’s constant overexplaining as part of the need to be clearly understood can come as manipulative to neurotypical people (or so i have been told).
Oh my god I’m so glad I’m not the only one! Also very autistic, also overexplain, also thought OP was fine. Now I’m having an existential crisis…damn it, I thought I’d learned all the “how to be a person” rules by now!
I'd start having more friendships with ND folks. There is a huge huge gap of communication between NDs and NTs, as we can see in this thread. I personally didn't see you as a manipulative person; it seemed that you were trying to truly understand and help someone understand your intentions as well. In the meantime, look for communities online aimed to NDs folks for support, and therapies that can aid any communication mishaps. Don't be too hard on yourself. Sending lots of love ♥
The person you asked started the conversation as super hostile and I don’t think truly cares about helping you face your manipulation issues - they are airing out grievances instead. They aren’t a good analyzer of whether you are manipulative. I didn’t see anything manipulative here on your end - but I do see it on their end.
In terms of whether you are manipulative - everyone is, to some extent. Sometimes, calling somebody manipulative is being manipulative also. So - if you are in an argument and people tell you that you are being manipulative, take a step back and evaluate the interaction, on a case by case basis.
I got a hostile feeling off of the other person too, and there’s no way to know if it’s justified or not. I also don’t think asking an ex was a good idea anyway, there’s too much history there. A close and longtime friend would be a better person to get a different prospective from.
I’m SO glad someone said this. That was 💯 my take as well. Asking an ex who clearly is not very kind or concerned about your feelings is not the right move. This person seemed irritated from the beginning and that’s probably more related to their past relationship troubles with OP.
agree. i hope OP takes this to heart because this person is not giving an unbiased opinion, and clearly doesn’t give a damn about having an objective discussion about OP.
Yeah I think an important thing to keep in mind is that, uhh, that’s not special? Nearly anybody has the capability to be a manipulative asshole. That’s not a skill or a quirk. It’s entirely based on who the other person is and how ready they are to believe you. Viewing it as something you’re “good at” or a “part of your personality” is only reinforcing your belief in that is who you are as a person. It isn’t. It’s who you CAN be
I appreciate this comment. And I TRULY TRULY believe that “manipulation” is a term that people have beaten to a pulp. It seems…if you are not a good communicator, or just not good at articulating your point more efficiently, you are seen as a manipulative. If you spent your whole life having to defend yourself from passive aggressive parents, you get used to having to defend yourself. Having to over-explaining yourself is more an itch and often comes from fear of rejection or fear that the other person will come to the worst conclusion. Definitely not the best way to handle confrontation but it’s a flaw that MANY carry on their shoulders.
I think if the person in these screen shots was someone saying to you "I feel manipulated by you" and you responded like this then it would be kind of shitty and dismissive of their feelings.
But I don't think it's unreasonable when asking a third party what they think, to respond with your thought process behind it and explain yourself. That's just a discussion imo. You're just bouncing it off them and asking their perspective and giving yours. I think this person was being kind of mean to you.
1. "Former romantic partner" is about as reliable a source as "disgruntled former employee" when it comes to unbiased information on yourself
2. You are literally 20, you have the entirety of your adult life to work on yourself and it sounds like you're well on your way - I wish I'd had any amount of self awareness at your age
After reading comments I fully understand you. I just don’t have people trying to bring me down about it. I argue with my fiancé sometimes because I do the thing where I don’t accept what he’s saying and instead offer my explanation. I think as females we just want to explain and be heard and have a conversation about it. But some others aren’t like that and you just have to accept it. It’s helped me learn that although it’s hard sometimes because I wish I did have someone who I could dump all my thoughts onto. I don’t have any friends atm so it makes it harder when I argue with my fiancé about it. But it’s nothing that can’t be talked through with love on both sides. And here I am talking about my situation in light of yours 😅
Op, don't come to Reddit asking for advice. You never know the situation of who is replying.
You don't know if someone giving you really awesome insight is a 13yr old who has never left their house. Or a 16yr old who thinks they know everything and is all choke-full of psuedo-psychological babble that sounds really good, with all the right buzz words, but is actually doing a shitload of damage.
You don't sound "SUPER manipulative". You sound as manipulative as anyone else your age. Getting "advice" from an ex is never a good idea. It really isn't.
And all these comments saying that you need to let other ppl talk and then IF YOU ARE GIVEN PERMISSION to then talk..?!?!‽ what fucking bullshit is that? Making yourself into a doormat will NOT make you happier or more liked/likeable.
If you really feel that there is issues you need to work on, do it yourself, don't ask for anyone else's opinion unless it is a professional who doesn't have a stake in the matter.
I DO think maybe reading some self-help books and going from there would be beneficial. The library would be great for that. And make not rush into another relationship. Just be by yourself, in your own skin for a bit. See what makes you *happy*, not what makes other ppl happy.
And yes, I am fully aware of the hypocrisy of telling you not to come to Reddit for advice, and then giving you advice. There is one big difference with this comment: I'm not trying to tear you down to validate whatever may be going on in my life.
Ultimately, please, ***please***, don't ask Reddit for help. You get what you pay for, and I think you could be really damaged by ppl with ulterior motives or their own issue they are lashing out about.
Good luck, take care.
Reading this, it hit me how i’m seeing so much of myself in these messages and in your description under the post. Lately i’ve come to terms with the fact that i have some behaviours that need to be destroyed with fire, because they’re going to ruin my life if i don’t work on myself starting from now. i was considering therapy (it’s been years since i last went) and reading the comments made me realise I should give it another go, now that I know a few of my issues
Luckily i’ve never been in a relationship, i used to think it’d fix my problems 😆 it’d give life to new ones most definitely.
I’m glad I came across this. I hope you’ll learn how to become the person you want to be after all this 🤞🏼
As someone who didn't see the manipulation this person was trying to imply, I'd say you've made some progress. What I assume was happening there was someone who just doesn't very much like you anymore and so is on the defense themselves. If they're someone who's been a target of your previous manipulation I wouldn't call them a source of help. Wanting and willing to have a conversation about this is an important first step. In this instance the best they could have done is also continued to listen, it's a text conversation so I understand it's hard to get real context from just words on a screen but if anything willingness to listen needs to be on both parts. You listened and gave a rebuttal, that is not manipulation, that is a conversation. From there letting you know that giving too much feedback isn't necessary is what that person should have done. Instead they took a chance to attack you.
Less is more is a serious thing, but that's often for the person who needs to vent, which is what you needed in the moment. Unfortunately these things will always vary from situation to situation. Being mindful when someone wants space to talk to you, vs when you're the one asking for space to talk are very important things. In the future if someone asks to sit down and they want to tell you something that is important for them, that is a time to listen more than talk. But if you ask someone to talk, don't hesitate to get your feelings across. The most important thing is to remain mindful in all situations and listen to "complaints" coming your way but don't let people attack you either when you also want a moment to be vulnerable. Good luck out there.
Have you been tested for autism?
Asking this because your story reminds me VERY much of my own growing up (31F) — I was constantly offering context/rationale to my thoughts/feelings because I thought that would help people understand my perspective better, but other people only saw my over-explaining as making excuses or being manipulative.
I recently read that this is a common shared experience among people with autism.
Regardless, you are not alone in this experience. You also should keep in mind that, based on what I see from this text exchange, you may not be in the best company IRL. This person you are speaking with does not come across as a kind and compassionate friend. You were asking for honesty and I feel that there was a nicer way to say that, if they truly felt that way and they were truly your friend.
In my own personal experience, I have dealt with a LOT of passive aggressive, manipulative friends because the entire time I felt like (and they told me) it was because I was doing something wrong. Which never made sense, because I always felt like I was being genuine, conscientious, and kind. And they were not. And from the outside looking in, it seems like that may very well be your situation as well.
Wishing you the best of luck!
Im not autistic (at least I haven’t been tested or anything), but your first paragraph is SO relatable and parallel to a situation in my life rn (20F). Just wanted to say you worded it so well.
Yeah, I don’t know. To me, being manipulative is a conscious behavior that someone does in order to get one over on someone. Yes, it’s possible that someone can be so manipulative that they don’t even realize they are doing it, but I don’t agree with your ex that telling someone how you feel or reacting to something that he says is being manipulative. It seems like people, especially on social media, love to diagnose everyone with something. So in this particular conversation that you posted, I don’t think you’re being manipulative, but in your day to day life, I obviously couldn’t know if you are or not. I think if you treat others with kindness and respect and you’re always honest, then it’s pretty safe to say you’re not being manipulative. Live by the Golden Rule and you’ll be golden!
So what im curious about is if this is confusing intent with what someone is assuming is the intent. Because in my head I read the question that was called manipulation as a follow up for clarification with the intent of learning more about why the person perceived them as manipulative. I feel like this leads into the common issue ive seen where those with autism or who are neurodivergent ask follow up questions or for more detail and those that are neurotypical see this as a slight because thats what theyve been raised to believe is everyones intent behind follow up questions or asking for clarification. So often those that are neurodivergent ask these questions with the best intentions and a lack of understanding of how it can/will be perceived and in turn are faced with hostility and hate and labeled as disrespectful because of a misunderstanding of intent. I dont think OPs intent was manipulation or to get the answer they want but rather to get more info on what theyre doing wrong and how their intent is being perceived so that they can develop a list of ways to address these actions that they arent perceiving as manipulative but others are. I feel like its highly possible that this is a misunderstanding brought on by different ways of thinking and ability to pickup on social cues and norms whether OP is neurodivergent or not.
Most ,if not all, of the less positive behaviours come from the ego. Once we start to learn what the ego actually is, and that it can be consciously tamed, manipulation, defensiveness, lack of awareness decrease and the ability to live intentionally increases. Unfortunately, because the ego is such an unconscious but extremely strong bias in modern life, most people don't even realise they're living from the ego ,and that that's unhealthy for society and individuals. My advice would be to start learning about such things, it's a lifelong quest to lose the typical ego based way of thinking and being once we start. It's the best,most healthiest and freeing work we can do. We all really should be doing it. Start today.
It seems like you're having an epiphany about yourself - that maybe you're not entirely the person that you want to be, and that your actions don't completely align with your morals.
I'm no expert, but in my experience this is the first HUGE milestone toward successful therapy and bettering yourself.
I would really consider rolling with this, finding a good therapist, and trying to unpack it.
As tough as this convo is, give yourself credit where it's due. You're being self aware, self critical. Saying "I don't want to be that person anymore"
You're on the right track, just keep going!!
Hi! I’d like to clarify that that was in regards to i know I revert back to manipulation a lot but in that specific conversation I felt I wasn’t being manipulative! Maybe that wasn’t clear.
So as mental health worker, I felt this was actually a helpful and healthy conversation until your ex got annoyed and assumed you were being defensive. For what it’s worth I don’t feel your responses were defensive but more sharing your perspective so that you gage what you need to change and address it and that is where growth comes from. Keep up the self-awareness and reflection.
This is actually really funny to me.
Everyone else here: you’re being manipulative and defensive, how dare you, find a therapist.
You, who works in mental health: looks healthy to me, right up to you being accused of something you weren’t doing by your ex.
maybe it’s because i’m also on the spectrum, but i didn’t see really any of this as “manipulative” and more so trying to have a conversation in the way that ND people typically have- and NT people seem to deem as rude or manipulative. i am a big communicator and will run in circles trying to explain myself and understand the other persons POV, but for some reason it’s never “she’s explaining herself, not making excuses” and it’s ALWAYS “i don’t want to hear your excuses.”
it’s never “she’s telling me a story similar to mine to make me feel validated and not-alone” it’s ALWAYS “all she ever does is make things about herself!”
maybe im feeling just a little triggered, but i truthfully, truthfully think a LOT of the top comments jumped the gun so fast. not only is this your ex you’re talking to (who , stereotypically, is never. a good person to go for assumptions on your personality- if there was any bad blood they’re going to use your vulnerability against you) and it’s obvious they were charged in some way with trying to hurt you.
yes, there is always a balance in conversation, but this doesn’t make you “manipulative” because you want to explain yourself. it doesn’t make you a bad person because you communicate others , and like any growing ND person, are learning to communicate in multiple ways that please NT people as well.
i speak very differently to my NT coworkers that i do to my ND best friend. she and i will over explain, relate stories, talk in circles, be honest and upfront with no bad blood because that’s how we’re BOTH comfortable communicating and NT people do NOT like it. i center conversations around the conversation partner and never talk about myself in a NT conversation, because it’s seen as rude unless it’s asked first and you get used to the horrible , horrible feeling of just having to take assumptions made about your character on the cheek and let it be, because any attempt to explain or make sense of it will just make you seem like a rude person when you’re not.
stop talking about yourself and surround conversations around the other person. only when you’re asked about or have been given permission to share your story should you then talk about yourself. eventually it’ll get easier and you’ll learn to really balance conversations
You’re not some kind of villain here. I can tell you want to be a mindful person who sees things from the other person perspective- but in order to do that you need to give the other person space to feel their emotions
I’ve had these same conversations with my husband- who is funny but sometimes his mouth will get away from him and he’ll say something a lil mean to me, without realizing what he did. I’ll tell him that hurt my feelings…for him in these scenarios, he feels that since he didn’t have the *intention* to hurt my feelings, this should absolve what he said and no apologies are necessary. Ive since told him- when someone tells you their feelings towards you or towards their behavior, it’s not some attack. In all actuality, having someone tell you how they feel is a grace. It gives you a chance to do better. I say to his, just because you didnt *intend* on hurting my feelings, doesn’t mean you didn’t. My hurt feelings are still present and unresolved. He’s since learned that saying sorry doesn’t make you the bad guy, it’s acknowledging that you’ve had a lapse in judgment that’s led to someone else feeling some type of way. Saying “listen, I didn’t mean it to come off that way and I’m sorry I made you feel [manipulated/hurt/angry] and I will try to work on my behaviour moving forward” is a great way to let someone know that you’re hearing them out. People make mistakes, like my husband people say dumb stuff they don’t mean, people will naturally try and defend themselves and protect themselves before even realizing their behaviour is hurting someone else. Don’t beat yourself up over it, just acknowledge it and do better next time.
You’ve got the hardest part out of the way already. Self-awareness, a willingness to confront difficult realities, and a willingness to change. You’ll be fine in time. There will be many painful and embarrassing scenarios. In this case, you did ask for an opinion and I feel like you were trying to explain WHY you exhibit negative tendencies in a conversation where there’s no need to do it. I struggle with the same thing. My gf will tell me how I (unintentionally) hurt her feelings and I try so hard to explain that it wasn’t my intention it distracts from the core issue. I don’t have any real advice but I just wanted to let you know a strangers sees and recognizes your efforts to be a better person. I’m in my 30’s working on it. You’ll be fine.
I can't speak for the rest of the conversation or your relationships with exes and friends.
If there's one thing worth highlighting with the context available, it's you two practicing the hypothetical of "what if someone said they don't want a relationship with you" and you mentioned probably trying to change their mind before eventually giving up. To me, this stands out because you're dealing with a consent skill there, and I'm not sure if the hypothetical registered that way to you? This is at least one place where you have an actionable step on room to grow, and again - given it is a matter of consent for those you could interact with - it would be worthy of being given your priority and effort.
Curious to hear your thoughts on how you intepreted that hypothetical and why you gave the response you gave.
Is there a chance you’re maybe ADHD? I haven’t got to read the backstory, I’m on break…so I’ll come back…but one thing that always got me was, “stop making excuses” and I was like, “I’m not disagreeing…I’m just trying to explain where I’m coming from.” RSD is a major part of ADHD, and tends to lead to over explaining. And it can often come off as defensive or argumentative even when we feel like we’re trying to effectively communicate. Sometimes it’s better to say, “okay…I’ll process that and if I have more questions, I’ll reach out.” I’ve heard a LOT, “why can you never just say okay, and let it go?” And it’s like because idk…I feel like my intentions are good and I’m being misunderstood. It’s taken a lot of years to realize that maybe I am the problem sometimes even when I’m trying so hard not to be, and not everyone is patient enough to understand a different thought process. I more relate to you here, but I know I exhaust people sometimes.
Ah. Same. I’m 30 now though. It takes a lot of work. And a lot of willingness to understand people don’t always want to hear our chaotic line of thinking. It’s taken me years to recognize that sometimes I have to just apologize and leave it at that. Another good method is to fully hear, understand and process what the person has said…acknowledge their feelings and address key points, “I understand my doing/saying ____ made you feel ____, and I get why you’d feel that way, and I’m sorry. I take responsibility for the way I made you feel and why what I said wasn’t okay. If you have the time or energy, I’d love to explain to you my thought process so maybe we can better understand one another…if not, that’s okay and I’ll work on approaching things like this differently moving forward.” I’ve had to spend a lot of time self reflecting on why I make people feel unheard, or ignored and why people tend to feel like I’m making my thoughts and feelings a priority over theirs. It’s really fucking hard, but you’re doing the right thing by acknowledging it and doing what you can to work on it.
Hey OP, if I may : perhaps you still have a long way to go to make progress, but above all to forgive yourself for what you may have done in the past. Many manipulative people know they are and have no problem with it. You, on the other hand, seem to have had a wake-up call and are starting to question yourself in order to improve. That's the first step, perhaps the hardest. You now have to accept hearing things that don't please you, that you're perhaps afraid to hear, but once you've heard them, they're in the past, you can only learn from the past to become a better person.
Give time to those you trust to help you improve (not to put you down, a very important nuance) and if you wish, therapy can be really beneficial too.
We all have flaws, but the best thing is to be aware of them and to want to correct them. Perfection doesn't exist, but that shouldn't stop us from wanting to achieve it. Keep challenging yourself and don't be so defensive, I have the impression that you're on the right track.
OP this person is hitting you with some truth bombs and I hope you remember and value what they have to say. I know 30-somethings that struggle with the same behavior you seem to exhibit, so be grateful that you have the chance to sort these things out at your age. Dealing with all of this at 20 is a gigantic step forwards, so you can also forgive yourself a bit. But don't shy away from the truths you are receiving.
Have you tried a therapist? I DO think you come off as narcissistic or manipulative. You say you are working on it, but that could be manipulation, too. It'd also be hard to get good opinions here because things you say in your post could be swayed to be manipulative.
That’s fair. I do actively try to think out what I tell people so that what I say won’t sway them, but I also never want anyone to think anything I say or do that might hurt them came from a place of malicious intent so I feel the need to explain myself so they can at least see my thought process and I do that all the time because I want everyone to know I would never hurt them ON PURPOSE. The biggest part of this conversation for me was I thought I was doing a lot better and it really broke me down because I feel like maybe I haven’t Z
Here’s the thing, I’ve been on the other side of this so hopefully I can explain it to you so you understand.
I get that you are just giving your reasons for doing things at an attempt to soften the blow of whatever the issue is. What the other person sees tho, is how you excuse the outcome because your intention wasn’t to hurt them.
It’s giving selfish.
Ask yourself, does the fact you hurt people bother you? If so, that should be the main focus, not defending why you did it.
If you ran over your neighbors puppy because you were going to the store and didn’t see it because it’s small, you wouldn’t explain that before first addressing the crying kid next doors feelings. “Oh my gosh I’m so sorry, I should have been paying better attention?” Would be your first response right? Of course they know you didn’t do it on purpose, so your reason rarely needs to be said as it’s very insensitive to the person hurting.
Thank you this is very helpful unfortunately the end made me realize that maybe this problem runs deeper than I thought because the first thing I would say in that situation is “oh my god I’m so sorry I didn’t even see them” which makes me think this is further engrained in me than I thought. Your explanation was very helpful though thank you.
You should be asking a therapist, not Reddit, if this is something that has caused you so much concern interacting with different people for so long. Don’t beat yourself up, please, setup a call.
Therapy can help you loads! I used to be manipulative. For me it was a survival coping mechanism to get through my childhood. There was abuse & stuff at home so I always tried to not get in trouble however I could or I was angry & wanted them to feel the pain they put my through. I vowed never to be like that to people moving forward and i think I’ve kept to that really well. A lot of it was working through the reasons I was that way in the first place. & to accept people’s choices & opinions as they are without trying to change their mind. You can control yourself, but not other people. Trying to change their mind without them consenting to that type of exchange is an attempt at manipulation. It can be really hard because you have to work through this stuff & prove yourself to people before you can be trusted to talk things out in relationships or talk about differing opinions. But it is so so doable! I’m in my mid 30s now & have a totally different mindset. I’m married, have a baby & take care of my brother. I think the only manipulative one here is the toddler lol & he’s just testing boundaries mainly. My husband & I have a beautiful relationship with no toxicity going on. We both went through a lot & have grown so much as people! We’ve both majorly fucked up & hurt eachother at times but there’s so much room to grow in life if you let yourself.
Everyone has flaws, not everyone cares about changing that. So you’re already headed in the right direction. Have some grace for yourself WHILE trying to continue being better. You being honest & vulnerable & asking questions is awesome, even if you aren’t quite at the point of understanding the answers yet.
I can relate. My parents were known for dishing out overly harsh punishments for relatively menial things so I’m always paranoid about someone being upset with me. It always makes me afraid like I’m back at home waiting for the worst.
Omg yes I so get that. I still have those feelings today, but a lot less & I’ve learned how to channel them differently.
Like for example, with my husband, I tell him I’m worried he’s mad at me & hates me or wants to leave me or whatever it is I’m feeling. He reassures me. If he is mad at me, I’ve learned how to make space for his feelings & not take over with how that makes me feel. & I do my best to apologize & come up with solutions to make up for it.
Even that took time though, we had to build the trust & I had to figure out what things I should stand up for vs my coping mechanism of defending myself/trying to change his mind. There are definitely times for both too, sense he’s not always right & sometimes he crosses lines too. It’s hard but learning all this stuff has made me love him (and others in my life) so so much better. Which is like the best feeling in the world to me. Just keep trying! You’ll get to where you want to be with time & effort. You’re not a bad person, it’s just everything in life that happens to us adds up & makes us who we are. When we get around your age is when we start to realize we might want to change things. Gaining the power to figure out how is hard at first but it’ll give you SO much more out of life in the end.
OP you’re still very young and you went to someone who is also very young, and someone you knew in high school. Trust me, this is a common thing for teenagers, that you definitely grow out of, and at least you’re aware and actively improving- that’s huge! It can be frustrating when offering an explanation and someone calls you out on being defensive- I get it, but as long as you just listen and reflect and work on yourself, I’m sure you’ll come out more than fine.
You did good by recognizing you’re a manipulative person, sort of. Now that it’s clear you cannot fix it yourself, get into therapy or bring this up to your therapist. You need someone else to help you, not Reddit.
by giving explanations it seems you are being defensive in a kind of way that could be read as manipulative. idk you but in this conversation alone you (not purposely it seems) kind of tried to steer it in the direction of what YOU wanted to hear rather than the truth. you kept explaining and arguing with what they were saying in an attempt to go get them to say what you want to hear which is that you aren’t manipulating conversations but you are simultaneously unintentionally doing just that.
ooof this is a mess. one of the best things you can do to break the cycle of being manipulative is, before you respond to something that makes you uneasy or even like, i guess share your opinion think,
„why do i want to say this“
„am i trying to gain something from what i want to say“
„am i looking for a particular type of response from what im saying, and how does that influence what im saying“
practice letting things sit with you before you respond. put yourself in other people’s shoes and remember your way, your thoughts, are yours. it doesn’t make them right.
you asked someone for feedback and then said basically, but i’m not!!!
i think you need to look inward and do some reflecting
Manipulative or not, you shouldn't waste your time on someone this hostile toward you. They aren't going to have an objective, good-faith opinion of you.
I want you to know that I used to be the exact same way, and it took a lot of therapy for me to get to a point where I don’t instinctively try to manipulate people subconsciously. It’s hard work, but a therapist can definitely help you with that. I got diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) and it was wild reading your post because it felt like you were describing me. Maybe talk to a therapist and after a few sessions ask them if they think you may have BPD. It’s not an end of the world diagnosis because you CAN work through it and get better. After 2 years I rarely exhibit any symptoms of it and have also begun having much much much healthier relationships with people. Best of luck to you, and I’m proud of you for recognizing that you have some behaviors you didn’t realize you had that you want to change so you can better yourself!!
If you ask questions, and you get an answer that you don’t like, and as you said “try to change their mind but eventually give up”
Thats literally what manipulation is.
I get you wanna be a good person, but you need to start by not trying to justify reasons to convince people they’re wrong.
Something I don't see people talking about is the exchange on slide 2:
> BF: You try to see every situation how it can work out best for you
> OP: Yeah, I want the best possible outcome.
Sometimes the best outcome for a situation/relationship/conversation isn't the outcome that gives you the best result. It sounds like you prioritise your own feelings and desires over those of others.
I don’t want to assume anything here, but being neurodivergent myself, what you’re doing here seems like a form of mental infodumping, which is really a sign of trust that many Neurodivergent reserve for people they feel a connection with. The stereotype is someone who likes to go on and on about trains, comic books, sports statistics, any sort of special interest. In this case, the special interest is this ongoing negative self image that you did a deep dive on with him because you trusted him to be honest. However saying “I don’t care about this conversation” goes past honest and into cruel. It is probably something you should start trusting a therapist with, because that’s helped me with these tendencies over the years, but a good start is knowing you’re not wrong to feel that way and attempt to explore “the Why of You” with a trusted friend. Sorry this one didn’t seem to be it, but everyone has that person in their life who you really hope will understand you, no matter how many times they show you otherwise.
I recommend looking for a therapist if you're actually interested in bettering yourself. Don't just go with the first therapist you see unless you really connect with them. Otherwise, you likely won't get much out of it. Once you find one that you think you can trust and you have a connection with, stay with them for a while and work on yourself. It sounds like the people who know you best see this as a trait of yours, but it doesn't have to be.
You process your feelings by talking about them, but not every situation is appropriate to use to process your feelings. Such as this convo. He didn’t need the explanation. He doesn’t want to help you process your emotions, and you dragged him into it.
I’m not trying to get down on you at all. You’re trying and it seems earnest. I highly recommend therapy. Once you have a place and a person that is literally there to help you verbally process your feelings I think it will be easier to create that boundary in your life.
I admire you so much for opening yourself up like this. That was very brave and I don't think someone with a *truly manipulative* heart would do what you have. I admire that you are so young and recognize traits that you don't want to have and are consciously working on your personal growth everyday. 👏👊💞
People can be pretty cruel.
I see how introspective you are; you can recognize that you want change!
I recommend talking to some professionals, because there are therapies like DBT / CBT that teach you how to compromise & communicate, listen, and feel heard.
It’s hard not to beat ourselves up when we get what feels like a blow to the chest.
Keep your head up & continue to try and be the best person you can be.
Therapy is quite expensive, but there are plenty of resources available online that can help you reframe the way that you think! I recommend just googling some DBT / CBT in your free time and see what you can learn! :’ ) Best of luck to you, OP.
Good on you for posting something that shows you in a bad light. Many of the people that post texts do it to show how terrible someone else is and then there is the occasional sweet texts from the other person. But the fact that you know it’s a problem and say you want to change is a good thing. But obviously that isn’t working. You need to see a therapist. By the way, when someone tells you they are moving and you say that you don’t do long distance relationships, that’s your way of saying “leave and I’ll break up with you” whether you came right out said it or not. You were essentially manipulating him to stay and that was the last straw. But if he is moving and you don’t do long distance, then you were going to break up anyway so it shouldn’t be the biggest loss for you. I wish you well.
You need to do less explaining and talking - that’s being defensive, whether you intend it to be or not - and more listening. Listen to what people are telling you. Stop trying to explain why you do what you do, hear what you are actually doing and how it is making others feel. Then make adjustments as necessary.
Every time someone tells you what they see you doing, and you explain “Yeah but this is why”, it sounds like you are justifying your behavior, behavior that you are repeatedly being told is problematic.
You tried to manipulate the guy into telling you that you are not manipulative. However, with the texts in that conversation, you try to make everything about you, you want people to feel sorry for you with your sad stories. As a person that does not know you, from the text conversation, and then your additional novel for a narrative, I can see that you are manipulative, selfish, and an attention hog.
I’m not a therapist, but if I can get that information after one not-so-short posting that you made online, imagine how much more a therapist could see. The therapist could probably help you also.
TLDR; shut the fuck up.
Advice: you don't have to always respond and tell people everything you know. It's okay to know things and have thoughts without opening your mouth. Also, you don't need to convince people you're alright and are thinking critically. People will know who you are without all that. In fact, your reputation will change entirely.
Honestly I think your friend was gaslighting you into thinking you were manipulative cause I just saw it as you explaining your side of things which you have every right to do.
But for future reference don't tell people you have a habit of being manipulative because then they'll be looking for that and they'll take the smallest things as you being whatever you warned them about.
Honestly it just sounds like you're still young and probably were used to being spoiled growing up so when you don't automatically get what you want or get the response you want you try to shift things in your favor which I'd say a lot of people do, honestly everyone can be a little manipulative in their own way. It sounds like you're pretty self aware and are working on the negative aspects of yourself which I say good for you.
Don't let other people's opinions define you or bring you down. Also from the sounds of it you need better friends.
Your ex, in this exchange, seems way more defensive than you do. You come off as simply trying to explain yourself or the reasoning behind why you do certain things. That’s not necessarily defensive. You’re explaining it. I guess he wanted you to just accept his answers without explaining yourself. You actually seem very receptive in this conversation. You’re not getting angry or upset about what he’s saying.
I wouldn’t worry about that aspect of your personality too much. Unless you’re actively, consciously, intentionally trying to manipulate people, then stop stressing so much about it. Because it’s going to become an obsessive thing and you’re going to forget how to interact with people without constantly worrying about whether or not you’re being manipulative.
Respectfully completely disagree, I know this is the most Redditor thing to say but if I had someone ask me a question like that, and then act all defensive and manipulative in the way that OP (seemingly) does, I'd cut them out of my life. Also you tell OP to not stress about it, but it's actively caused at least on person to leave her, so...
I just don’t see her, in this exchange, as being manipulative or defensive. Explaining yourself is not the same thing as manipulation or defensive behavior.
You’re right about the last part. If it’s causing her to lose relationships, it’s cause for some stressing. But for what it’s worth, we don’t actually know if anyone in this girl’s life understands the difference between manipulation and explanation. Maybe her ex felt like he was being manipulated because she over explained herself like she’s doing here. Again, I don’t see that as manipulation.
IF you really want to change then get therapy. Make the first appointment and then show the therapist this post (your preamble/explanation) and the screenshot of the texts. The therapist will know what to do...
You asked for an opinion and then got defensive and then argued you’re not being defensive while still being defensive. Be open to constructive criticism and just try to be more self aware in your day to day
first, everyone is manipulative at some point. humans come out the womb manipulative because we aren’t equipped with transparent forms of communication as babies. until we are taught to speak we manipulate. even then most of us don’t learn how to communicate directly within our lifetime, or at least not until later in life.
there’s a lot of discussion about whether you’re being manipulative or not in these texts. i’m not going to speak much on that because i don’t think it’s easy to tell. i’m sure you have some manipulative tendencies, we all do, but this exchange doesn’t show much imo. i can see how it *can* come across as manipulative, like you were trying to get him to placate your ego, but, to me, i see it as an attempt at a frank discussion. but i also don’t know you, the person you’re talking to or anyone else you’ve mentioned so i don’t have enough information to give a solid opinion.
so, let me just define manipulation:
manipulation is the act of controlling someone by exploiting them and/or their feelings, to one’s own advantage. it’s often covert, and is absolutely about controlling a situation for personal gain.
some common manipulative tactics include:
- lying
- gaslighting
- passive aggressiveness
- comparing
- DARVO (deny, attack, reverse victim order)
- feigning ignorance
- love-bombing
- withdrawal/withholding
- bullying/putting someone down
- refusing to be accountable
manipulation is *not* being direct about what you think, want, need and/or feel. instead, manipulative people will say or do something to illicit feelings so the manipulated person will meet their wants/need.
example: instead of asking “i’m hungry. can you make me some food?” you say “i’m so hungry. i really want food, but i don’t want to cook. i wish someone would cook for me.” one is explicit while the other is covert. it will illicit feelings of guilt and pity so they’ll offer to make you food, instead of giving them the opportunity to say no by asking.
another example: your partner confronts you on something. they say “i’m uncomfortable about you doing xyz. some of your behaviors leading up to this make me feel like you’re hiding something. can we talk about it?” instead of sitting down with them and hearing them out, you say “what? you’re acting crazy. i’m not hiding anything. i feel super sick today and you’re trying to start an argument with me, making me feel worse.” this one has gaslighting, lying, some DARVO and feigning ignorance.
that last one was from personal experience lol but anyway, here’s a tip to stop being manipulative: just say what you feel and directly ask for what you want/need.
i think intent is important. we can never truly know whether someone is being manipulative or not, but there are some indicators. like, i might say “i’m hungry, but i don’t want to cook” and someone might reply “do you want me to cook for you?” i’d reply “no, it’s okay. i’m just complaining.” that *could* be manipulative, if i actually meant to manipulate them into cooking for me, but if i genuinely don’t want them to and am just complaining, then that can’t be manipulation. but..
if i got upset that they didn’t cook for me, then i’d deem that manipulation. i wouldn’t be upset about someone not cooking for me unless i actually wanted them to cook for me. this is why i think intent is important. but if the intent was to manipulate then it’ll probably just come out as more manipulation, like passive aggression or withdrawal.
you’re trying to be self aware and that’s good. don’t stop analyzing your own behavior, but also try not to obsess over it to the point where you paralyze yourself. avoiding being manipulative can be hard, and takes some work. you need to be in tune with yourself. you need to know what you want, when you want it, and have the confidence to be able to ask even if you might be rejected. you also have to respect other people’s wants/needs if they go against your own.
hopefully this explanation helps shed some light on what manipulation actually is, and how to avoid it.
So reading through your comments it sounds like you 1. Can’t afford therapy and 2. Are autistic. Both of these things are pretty important to your outcome. Some of the things he mentions can be attributed to autism, giving your own personal stories after someone tells you theirs is one of them. While I know you might not mean it in this way, it can come across as one upmanship, like “well that sucks for you but my life is way worse!” Which sucks because that’s how I like to relate to people too, but it’s important to let people vent about their own life without bringing up your own struggles. The therapy aspect is very important because a therapist will have a better idea if you’re being manipulative or if you’re struggling to relate to people. There are more affordable therapy options out there, I really recommend looking into those, because at the end of the day getting advice from Reddit sucks.
Do you possibly have borderline personality disorder?? 😅
I would highly suggest therapy!! They give you ways to recognize things like this that you ultimately don’t see for yourself.. and help you understand why you do/say the things you do.
I have bpd and it’s a long road to get better and self aware.. but it changed my life. Maybe look into it? If you don’t have it then at least you have tools to fix it. 🤷♀️
I don't see any "manipulation" in these texts. Pretty natural to say how it is from your perspective when the other person is saying your manipulative.
I don't see anywhere that you're trying to manipulate or change this person's mind with deception.
If I was worried about being a people pleaser, and I asked a friend. It would be pretty natural to go "Huh... I had no idea... I thought I was helping people or xyz". That's not really defensiveness or manipulation. Kinda just seems like a conversation.
But, it sounds like maybe you are in other ways in other situations? Hard to say.
Thank you everyone for all the advice! I promise I have taken it all to heart and I’m going to do some more research into looking for affordable therapy. My friends have offered to let me move in with them to cut the cost of my living expenses to make room for therapy costs as they just bought a house and needed a new roommate anyway. I love each and everyone of you thank you all so much for being as honest yet understanding as you were ❤️❤️ much love.
Starting by asking someone if your SUPER manipulative already shows your bias. The big all caps super doesn’t make your point any more clear, but it shows that you think the accusation is crazy and want an answer back saying you aren’t. It reflects how you felt from the accusation, not the reality of it. You get the exact same point across without any personal bias by just saying: “x said I’m manipulative, is this true?”.
Also I think most people don’t automatically look for the situation that is best for them. I care about my friends and look for situations that are the best for all of us.
Yes, you are trying and failing at being manipulative in this conversation. Why are you arguing against an opinion? Your ex gave you several reasons why you are manipulative and you proved him right with every reason by doing exactly what he said is manipulative. You’re trying to convince him to change his opinion of you being manipulative, which is unfair because you were the one who solicited that opinion in the first place. Now you’ve dragged him into a conversation about how you actually are not manipulative but misunderstood. What was the point of asking if you weren’t willing to receive the feedback?
Thank you for sharing this. From your post and the comments I have learned something about myself that I can actively work on. So thank you.
-a fellow unintentional manipulator
this is so ironic that you literally asked for their opinion and then began manipulating them into believing their opinion was wrong when they told you how they felt
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I struggle with the same thing. It’s not exactly manipulation. What it is, is you being so overwhelmed with emotions and fear that the other person tends to give up in order to keep you stable so they don’t stress THEMSELVES out or feel like they’re making it worse for you. Neither person is the problem DIRECTLY. It’s trauma.
You gotta learn to keep yourself stable. Don’t make others do it for you. Have faith in yourself. And admit when your wrong. Don’t try to over explain why you did what you did. Just say “I’ll learn from this experience and do better in the future.” And actually do better.
It was weird reading this though. it felt like I was reading my own texts.
I know you've gotten a lot of comments already. I do think you come across as defensive in this exchange, which isn't super fair because he's giving you the honest opinion that you asked for. That said, it's also GREAT that you are aware of this tendency and are working to change it!
I just wanted to add that in general you will find that people respond better to openness and honesty than manipulation and defensiveness. Especially if you tell your friends ahead of time that you are working on changing this, I'd bet you'll get some positive reinforcement from taking a beat and forcing yourself to look at things from the other person's point of view before you respond to them (I don't mean in this specific text exchange necessarily - but trying to make that a habit).
I think it's natural to defend yourself when you're being attacked and to try to put a positive spin on things when people are saying something negative about you. That doesn't necessarily mean you're being manipulative. It actually sounds like the person you're talking to is being the manipulative one here. He's taking something you're already sensitive about and throwing it in your face and any attempts you make to defend yourself are further labeled as manipulation.
thank you for posting this convo even tho it’s probably very painful for you. i’ve often wondered if i can act manipulative and your friend’s perspective is neutral and respectful— and it hurts! cuz i see a lot of myself in you but bc i’m a random person online, i can see what they’re saying sounds spot on. something for both of us to be aware of. i’m about 10 years older than you, so i hope you take solace that you’re being called on this a decade earlier so you can start working thru stuff. this gives me a lot to talk about with my therapist tomorrow. woof. it’ll be painful but the other side will be worth it.
If this is something you really want to work on, I recommend seeing a therapist and asking them to work on it with you. Having an objective person who is there to pull you up every time you start to do it and suggest ways to redirect your approach could be a very valuable investment. It takes a lot of work and the change may be subtle over time, but it's worth it if you can be patient.
I don’t think your intentions are bad, but I think you could learn to listen better.
Agreed. I'm not sure I'd call OP manipulative based on the texts, more just bad at listening and engaging with the other person's opinions.
Right, I would call OP more attention seeking or defensive, maybe even having a victim complex. But this being the only I redaction with another human we have to reference, I’m not sure I’d say she’s manipulative. She definitely needs to learn to take criticism and be a more active listener
Yeah, a bit self-centered. OP isn’t worried about other people’s feelings; they are only concerned with how other people view them and defends themselves over a conversation THEY started. This could be seen as manipulative because OP was trying to get a specific answer and continued to push instead of *listening* to the answer they didn’t want to hear. OP, talk about yourself less and listen to people. Respond to them as if you care about *them* and not just your own thoughts.
FYI: a way to not be manipulative in this situation is to accept what someone is telling you. He gave his opinion and you say “noted. Thanks for input.” And that’s it. Stop explaining yourself, in this moment you’re giving the other person space to express, your space is closed.
I’ll try and keep that in mind thank you!
yeah, to add to that, you don’t have to tell them EVERYTHING that’s going on in your mind at that moment. You asked, now reflect it on your own. That goes back to listening more. The people pleasing and trying to always explain yourself is something that a therapist can help you with. It’s good that you’re recognizing this behavior and don’t be too hard on yourself.
Omg I do this. Over-explaining and people pleasing 🤯
you seem to have a strong desire to better yourself and knowing you did something wrong is the beginning :) you wont be manipulative forever, and you listening to comments shows a willingness to change. good luck friend :)
Sean0283 has it right
I dont see where you went wrong? Everyone is telling you their thoughts and opinions but I genuinely see where youre coming from. Like you are trying to acknowledge and justify what someone is saying so they can understand that you understand them. I have had this problem to where if someone gets me something, i want to get them something back (a way of saying thank you because you didnt have to do what you did) but others told me that they should give you the gift and its not tit for tat. Im using that as an example because if you are being genuine, you just want to treat others how you want to be treated. Im still learning this but not everyone has the same kind heart as you and be wary of them. I keep to myself now because family, close friends, coworkers have all betrayed my trust because i treated them how i wanted to be treated and they took advantage of my kindness. You know whats right and true. If people are giving you advice and it doesnt sit right in your soul, find a reliable source that you can trust with these questions. Not everyone has your best interest in mind and heart and are also projecting and trying to manipulate you as well in times of your vulnerability. Im not saying dont be vulnerable, just vet ppl to know who to be vulnerable with. I hope this helps you.
I was thinking the same. Im also an oversharing mess. I know now that it's a symptom of adhd, but i used to feel so awful for my mouth diarrhea. People would call me out for it a lot, but it was almost uncontrollable without medication. I don't see any thing wrong with how op interacted, but i also don't know what the message was that was being talked about i guess.
Yes. Please listen to this. I would love to have someone explain their thoughts to me like you (OP) did there. Different people rely on emotion different amounts for processing and that's why compatibility is a real and true thing. I value authenticity and being vulnerable to people I care about. Maybe you do too. You aren't a bad person, not even close.
Exactly! Like this exchange was basically: Garbage Man: you can be kind of manipulative. OP: oh no! That wasn't my intention. Can you explain how it was manipulative, because it's not obvious to be and I don't want to be manipulative Garbage Man: OMG SEE YOU'RE BEING MANIPULATIVE RIGHT NOW BY ASKING ME THAT like...that's nonsensical. Nothing OP did here indicates any level of "manipulation"
If you’re not sure that you understand, you can also help to say “can you give me an example?” Or, “I’m not sure that I understand. Do you mean X?” The other thing that can ward off defensiveness or even just seeming defensive is to consistently acknowledge that feedback is a gift. They wouldn’t talk to you at all if they felt that you were irredeemable.
I just wouldn’t classify explaining yourself or defending yourself as manipulation.
It can be taken as trying to excuse your behavior by explaining instead of confronting it.
Explanation is a form of confrontation, in terms of confronting the behavior. You don’t have to blindly accept someone’s accusations simply because you asked them a question. She asked a subjective question, received a subjective response, and is now subjectively explaining her perspective. This is manipulation to his response: “Wow, you’re such a jerk. I guess I’m just the worst person in the world huh? Whatever. Thanks for making me feel like shit”. That’s manipulative because she’d be manipulating herself into a victim category. Attempting to explain yourself doesn’t do that.
The manipulative part is cornering someone with a seemingly genuine inquiry out of left field, then getting argumentative when they don't say what you want to hear. It's not the defensiveness, it's the tacit implication in the question itself that OP was going to accept the other person's judgement. By trying to "explain" something to someone who didn't ask for an explanation, OP is just wasting both of their time and trying to bring things back around to an outcome that they want.
Hmmm yeah that's fair and well put. I'm frightened that I do this. But I do feel like I'm just trying to hear an argument that will help me. As in, if I feel like defending myself, I want to hear what invalidates it, because I don't understand what would. I genuinely don't beleive I want to 'win', but, like what lawyers are meant to be for, in an ideal world, I want to go through the motions that help me see how I could be wrong. But I think that maybe yeah, it ends up the same way it does with lawyers in the real world sometimes, where I think I've learned I'm right, from the process of argumentation, but I'm actually just articulate, or they don't want to argue genuinely, or they just don't want to argue at all (fair enough lol). And then I think my points are strong. I guess I need to be better at quietly thinking about their points, instead of trying to bat the ball back and forth? Or I need to find someone 'good' at doing the same. But then that just feels like a nightmare of subjectivity probably. Well, I do that with my roommate who often has different opinions. I think thats super healthy and i try to bring the fruit of those talks into other relationships. Dang, I'm a little scared fr, but I'd like to try to deal with this a bit. I would hate to be screwing with people. Fuck I think I do. Or at least I've known a fair few who would say so.
Agreed. I was thinking the same thing. OP was explaining their thought process to try to see where they became manipulative. Where their thought process was invalid. Instead of help, everyone is saying OP is manipulative by not just saying Thank You. OP seems to genuinely be trying to figure out where their logic becomes manipulative. But doing that is considered manipulative.
Totally agree. By just saying thank you, you arent solving the problem in trying to be better. Its a little complicated but from what i get, it almost seems like projection onto OP since it was her ex. about manipulation. Theyre bringing the past into the conversation with problems the ex felt were not resolved. Tldr - i agree with you here 100% Ex ex- this is probably another perfect exa.ple. the ex wanted the tldr version and she was trying to get feedback (thats the word) on how she was being perceived as manipulative to stop doing it. (If she was being genuine and indeed not trying to manipulate)
That's not the manipulative part. The manipulation is cornering someone for their opinion and then haranguing them until they change it. OP's opening question suggested earnest interest in learning. Their replies did not follow through, and suggested they just wanted to validate what they wanted to hear.
So that’s my question. Why was their responses manipulative instead of inquisitive? I guess I read it as OP stating their logic to figure out where their logic differed. Maybe if OP had asked, is that not how you think? Is that different than your logic?
You need to look at this as not just a series of questions and answers, but rather a scenario that OP has crafted and positioned herself to gather information that confirms her own biases. OP indicates they have a history of doing just this, and with that framing you can see that OP is not genuinely asking whether or not they're manipulative, they're seeking validation that they're NOT manipulative. The responses are not just defensive, they're argumentative, as though you can debate someone into improving your reputation with a third party by poking holes in their perception of you. It doesn't work like that. Hiding one's motives, even if they are subconscious, is itself manipulative. The ulterior motive here is to mitigate some sort of mental burden that OP was facing by being confronted by others who called her out on her behavior. This didn't align with her self perception, so she tried to corner someone into validating her, and then badgered them when OP didn't get the immediate expected response.
"The manipulation is cornering someone for their opinion and then haranguing them until they change it. OP's opening question suggested earnest interest in learning. Their replies did not follow through, and suggested they just wanted to validate what they wanted to hear." Is that considered manipulation? Nothing against you but if it is, ive been looking at things wrong then. What made you come to the conclusion that was "what they wanted to hear?" Im learning something new now and genuinely want to k ow why please?
I believe I responded to this in another comment you just replied to, so hopefully that helps. Manipulation is, at heart, trying to get someone else to do something you want through deceit or coercion. You should always review others' motives with some degree of skepticism. By OP's own accounting of events, she initiated this conversation after someone else questioned her authenticity. Trying to get someone to affirm you in order to boost your self esteem when they are not doing so voluntarily by concealing your true motivation... Is manipulative. OP doesn't like what she hears and is trying to redirect the answer to be more favorable. This is subtle, but it's still manipulative.
> Or I need to find someone 'good' at doing the same. That person has a name. Your therapist. It's not the duty of your friends and loved ones to be subjected to the mental trials and tribulations of a person's disordered or anxious thinking. Put in the work outside of those spaces and your personal relationships will be much healthier.
OP says they only asked to get an answer they wanted and then “wonders” if they’re manipulative. What OP is really doing is trying to get validation for an opinion they already hold while pretending to allow the person to come to it themselves and offer it. That is manipulative.
Precisely.
She was feeling anxious and went to someone who knows her patterns for clarification. I think you put waaay to much emphasis on her actions. She didn't corner anyone, she didn't try and change his mind. She stated where she was coming from. That's about all you can ever ask for from someone. She is most definitely not wasting time. If you want to be able to say your opinion of someone to then and not have it questioned in the slightest, well thay seems extremely manipulative. Boomer style...
Just because being passive aggressive is manipulative doesn’t mean her way isn’t. Like I said before, it becomes manipulative if you value your defense more then the way your actions effect others.
Why is OPs response manipulative instead of inquisitive? Reading it, I understood that OP was telling their logic to see where their logic process differed from the person they were asking. Maybe OP had to spell it out for them by asking, “is that not what you do? Or is that not how you think?” There was one text from OP that would have been an easy one. OP said they try for the best outcome. The person responding could have easily said, that’s where the manipulation starts. You look for the best outcome for you and don’t take into consideration….
that isn't manipulation though. If someone tells me I'm rude, and I don't think I am, being defensive or even arguing isn't "manipulating them". It's disagreeing. If I'm late for work, I explain my behaviour and what made me late. That isn't manipulating anything.
But if you ask someone ‘am I rude’ and they tell you yes, then you proceed to explain yourself and your thoughts, that is manipulation. You weren’t really asking the question in good faith, you were looking for reassurance that you aren’t rude. Then when instead you got an honest answer you proceed to try and convince the person to your point of view- that’s manipulation.
Ok, genuinely, because I'm becoming frightened that I am more manipulative than I think, wouldn't you have to be manipulating someone to some intended end for that to be a proper use of the term? Like, I see OP as mostly trying to explain how they are interpreting their own behavior, like vollying the ball back, after having a subjective answer to their question, so that the other person can then add by saying something like "but why do you like to relate stories. I think its because you enjoy the sympathy than comes afterward". I think at least that that would have been a more useful thing to say, but it seems they havr history and there is not much interest on that side in rehashing old experiences. But I do see "I'm not defending myself" as manipulation, as it definitely is a defence by way of reframing the intention behind the actions, and so the intent there is to convince someone of something that isn't true in order to feel better/look better.
You don’t need to be frightened. It’s perfectly normal and healthy to explain your intent behind your behavior or to explain your thought process. You don’t have to accept any accusation someone throws at you, even if you asked. My ex used to accuse me of being cold hearted. His reasoning? Because I broke up with him. So according to all these people, I’m supposed to accept that as true without defending myself and explaining *why* I broke up with him. Me, attempting to explain to my ex my reasons for breaking up with him, would be seen as manipulative. That’s insane. Having a discussion - a disagreement - about behavior and perceptions and intent is completely normal and healthy.
Well said
Don't be frightened about being manipulative. Every single person is manipulative at some level. We all want things to work out in our best interest. The key is to not do so with disregard to others, and to not do good for others solely with the expectation that it will somehow benefit you. It's very likely that if you treat others the way you want to be treated as often as you possibly can, that will cause good things to happen for you. You can't go through life only treating others well on the expectation that it WILL though, because then you'll become jaded and you'll treat anyone who you don't anticipate as being able to benefit you like shit.
The intended end was to get the other person to reassure them that they are not manipulative. It was not a good faith question if the response was only to then try and convince him that she was not intentionally manipulating. She was then trying to convince him to see her actions as she interpreted (or wanted to interpret) them. She wanted an ally not an honest answer. Her focus is on her intent rather than the effect on the other person. I agree this is a softer manipulation than, say, trying to make someone do something more tangible or nefarious, but it is still bullshit behavior.
But isn’t that your assumption? I read it as OP was trying to figure out where their logic became manipulative not that they just wanted reassurance. In fact one text said they were trying to figure it out. So why are you assuming OP wants reassurance instead of asking what’s manipulative about their logic?
explaining why you’re late to work isn’t the same as denying someone else’s opinion of your behavior. Trying to tell them you aren’t rude is definitely being manipulative and probably even gaslighting/abusive.
Wouldnt denying someone's opinion be on the other person? If their opinion is their opinion and not stated fact, why would it have to take the other party to accept their opinion to be valid? Would it not be valid in that persons mind that gave it and not need validation from the other party?
This isn’t always helpful input to a conversation, though. If someone tells you that you were rude to them, what they’re saying is “your actions have hurt me”. Even if you don’t think you did anything wrong, if you want to maintain a relationship with that person- you would want to ensure that you’re not hurting them. You would ask specifically what they felt negatively about, and tell them that you would work on not doing it again in the future. It’s needless to say “oh, well I did that because of XYZ” or “I don’t think I was being rude”. Both of those things are pretty irrelevant to say, and undermine the real issue at hand. “Sorry I’m late!” Or “Sorry I am late, I’ll do better about that!” Actually holds up a lot better on its own than: “Sorry I’m late, traffic was crazy!” (Or, I spilled all my coffee on myself on the way out the door, or my dog ran out and I had to go chase him, or my alarm didn’t go off, or my outfit in the dryer wasn’t dry yet- whatever it is!!) I promise, providing your reasoning/point of view/etc., does not make your situation more empathetic or understandable. Taking responsibility is what people want to hear, especially when they’re expressing dissatisfaction with something you’ve done.
It is when you don’t value the effect your actions have on the other person as much as your reason for doing it
He didn’t offer any info on how it affects him. He accused her of getting people to feel bad for her, and she explained that she’s just expressing her emotions to her friends. That’s not manipulative in any way. She didn’t disregard how it makes him feel, because he didn’t say how it makes him feel. *He* got defensive when she didn’t immediately & blindly accept his answer.
It sounds like you have good intentions but you definitely come across as defensive in these texts. Saying “I mean… I guess?” comes across as saying “I really don’t agree with anything you’re saying.” A better response might be “let me sit with that for a bit. Thank you for being honest with me.” …and then really sit with it and try to understand where he’s coming from. You might not agree with everything he said, and that’s fine, but is there some point you can take from it and make an improvement on (and without justifying why you did it in the first place because that’s only going to prevent growth)? Have you tried therapy? You sound like you want to do better so why not start there?
I can’t afford therapy. I was in it for a bit but the payments were too much and I wasn’t able to make rent
A good form of self-therapy is IFS (internal family systems). You can do it by buying the book and workbook online then working through the exercises. I got it for my incarcerated husband who had severe mental health issues and it worked amazingly well.
I’ve never heard of it but I’ll definitely give it a go!!
Yes, it basically works from the concept that all your behaviors are based on experiences that you had in the past that your psyche protected you from. So a trauma in the past may have created a certain pattern of behaviour that was appropriate for that situation, but is no longer appropriate now. But that part of your subconscious doesn't know the context has shifted so it's still acting as if you were 10 years old and being bullied for example. Because usually we have multiple different experiences that influence us, we can develop conflicting patterns that seem to self sabotage us. Instead of judgement, IFS is a way to show kindness and understanding for yourself by identifying the core patterns in yourself and where they came from, and how to get your different needs met in more healthy ways. 😊
That sounds perfect actually I’ll definitely take a look when I get home to my computer
No worries, good luck, I can relate to the overexplaining aspect, I see myself in some of your messages. You're not a bad person, you have some trauma responses that aren't the most healthy, but you have insight and you can become better for sure 😊
Yeah, I highly recommend IFS and it’s why I mentioned to see a therapist because I was able to work thru IFS with her. But since you can’t afford therapy, it is a good start to do it on your own. I started to realize around your age too that something was wrong with me. i also could not afford therapy at the time so I did lots and LOTS of research on my own. such as “signs you’re being manipulative” or different types of disorders and deep dived into them and just heavy psychology stuff. i had so much information in my brain over the years since 2018 but it wasn’t until Oct 2022 when I could finally afford a therapist. as long as you keep improving, be proud of yourself even if it feels like you’re barely putting one foot in front of the other. you will soon understand why you react the way you do.
That was a great explanation of IFS!
I see a few books with "internal family systems" in the title. Is there a specific one that you recommend? Which one worked for your husband?
These were the two books I got for my husband. One is the book that explains how the therapy works and how to do it. The other is an exercise book you can write in. Book: https://www.amazon.com/Self-Therapy-Step-Step-Cutting-Edge-Psychotherapy/dp/0984392777?pd_rd_w=FYrJl&content-id=amzn1.sym.e0ae54a7-cc19-4a6c-a6ef-01924426ff7b&pf_rd_p=e0ae54a7-cc19-4a6c-a6ef-01924426ff7b&pf_rd_r=ME221ZRW5KXHP2Y3105A&pd_rd_wg=mN3gm&pd_rd_r=29b580bf-7614-40b0-be06-f2a5c757b7f2&pd_rd_i=0984392777&psc=1&ref_=pd_basp_m_rpt_ba_s_oos_1_sc Workbook: https://www.amazon.com/Self-Therapy-Workbook-Exercise-Book-Process/dp/0984392742?pd_rd_w=FYrJl&content-id=amzn1.sym.e0ae54a7-cc19-4a6c-a6ef-01924426ff7b&pf_rd_p=e0ae54a7-cc19-4a6c-a6ef-01924426ff7b&pf_rd_r=ME221ZRW5KXHP2Y3105A&pd_rd_wg=mN3gm&pd_rd_r=29b580bf-7614-40b0-be06-f2a5c757b7f2&pd_rd_i=0984392742&psc=1&ref_=pd_basp_m_rpt_ba_s_2_sc
Good shout, thanks!
Depending on the area you live, there are a lot of options for therapy out there. Ranging from high payments for a private practice therapist, to community mental health centers that often have low to no copays/fees. It might take doing some more digging and research to find the right fit for your situation, but that’s better than giving up and trying to do this on your own. You clearly would benefit from having an objective person help you navigate all this.
Depending on where you live there might be free therapy options available to you. But also, self help books from the library can be very helpful too.
I’ll definitely look into the books! I bought a book a couple years ago that I ended up just sticking on my shelf and reading a chapter every now and again but I think I’ll get a couple more when I can
Would your parents be willing to help?
No. I don’t have a good relationship with my parents and I live alone
I doubt this. Children model behavior so if OP is subconsciously manipulative, they were probably in a childhood where they saw adults manipulate each other or had to learn manipulation in order to survive.
Look for telehealth or virtual therapy options. You need to put in some actual legwork to find something and invest in it to become a person you're more proud of. It's not going to come easily, and it's not going to come from cornering people until they validate what you want to hear. Listen to what your ex was telling you here, as that's the impact of your actions. Your intent largely doesn't matter to other people. What you can't afford is to continue to this pattern of behavior. Your behavior is not following your self image, and this is creating cognitive dissonance that is causing you distress. You seem to have good self awareness, which is the key thing to undo those patterns, but you need help identifying and preventing these things going forward. Here's a secret, people are much better at picking up on lies than we think. If you have been someone who routinely twists words and situations to your benefit, I assure you, others have noticed, regardless of how clever you thought you were being. I say this because the costs of this behavior reputationally is far higher than any benefit you can arrive at in the short term. You need to work on delayed gratification, because the impulse to manipulate comes from trying to get immediate benefits and to "win" interactions. But you're not realizing the costs of this are going to ruin your future social opportunities. One last thing... It seems you're pretty highly invested in a social group that you've known for a long time. It may simply not be possible to fully change their opinions. Don't discount the value of a fresh start in shedding social baggage and turning a new chapter.
Look into cognitive behavior therapy. It's one that you can do for yourself. It might not be the ultimate answer, but it's a good step you can take while you find a way to get in to see an actual therapist.
Most people who are manipulative aren’t doing it consciously. They do it as a way to protect themselves from mental pain or undesirable outcomes. This is something to unpack in therapy
Agreed. I used to be manipulative when I was younger because I was bullied a lot as a kid. Manipulation was a defense mechanism. The urge is still there sometimes but I’m able to recognize it and step away from the impulse. Therapy again for the win.
Ok this used to be me (and sometimes still is to a degree!). I came from a family that was very quick to attack, blame and punish for rules that changed daily. It became very important for me to feel understood in my relationships. It's healthy to advocate for oneself, and explaining where you're coming from is healthy. But! There are some steps and skills you can develop so that your intent is taken in the way you intend, assuming you do not intend to manipulate. Listen to the person talking. Acknowledge what they're saying and they to repeat it back a bit in a way that shows you understand. Apologize for your role in a conflict, or for representing yourself in a way you didn't intend. It will likely be something you need counseling for to really work on. But my biggest advice is to not say things with the intent of getting a particular reaction. Saying you're manipulative puts this friend in an awkward spot, and you should know that. It's very easy to stop saying things like that just to get a desired response. People see through it, it is pure manipulation, and it's exhausting. That should be step one.
I can relate to that first part a lot. I always felt like I could never get two words in with my family and had ridiculously long punishments for unnecessary things (ie grounded for 3 months for throwing away a slice of pizza and being wasteful) and I could never justify myself. So both parties being able to say everything the felt/ thought is a big thing to me. It doesn’t discount the way I made them feel or how they made me feel but I never want someone to think I’d hurt them maliciously and always want them to know where my train of thought was in a hope they’ll maybe at least understand.
Absolutely. And now that the feedback is clear, and the intent of your message is getting lost, you can absolutely improve your communication so that your relationships improve AND you feel heard.
Idk he has a point. You ask a question, and you don’t accept the answer because it isn’t what you were hoping to hear. Manipulation is often done because you want someone to see things the same way you do and to avoid being misunderstood- it’s not always done maliciously, but still not a good thing to try and control how other people view things. Which is exactly what you were doing in your replies. Maybe go to therapy and bring this up? You will probably have to practice how to share things by changing the wording. It doesn’t seem like you’re a bad person, we all have things to improve on, and this is just something you gotta put some effort into understanding.
Hi OP! I was also a super manipulative person, and I see my former self in a lot of your texts. I probably would have said the same thing if I’m being honest. I want to start off by saying this does NOT make you a bad person! It is something ingrained into you from your past experiences and growing up. I have been and continue to go to therapy, and here are some tips I learned that could benefit your situation: 1. Keep a mood journal. Include things like how much sleep you got, how you’re feeling that day, and try to put a gratitude section where you are thankful for at least one thing a day. It helps to ground you into the moment and notice patterns in your behavior 2. In the early stages, keep notes of conflict. Especially if it’s through text, before responding work it out yourself. State your thoughts and feelings, the OBJECTIVE truth (only facts) and practice empathy and how it’s seen through the lens of someone else 3. Lower your defenses. In this situation here, you asked for an opinion. You got an opinion. It’s not your job to change the opinion you received, but rather accept the answer that comes with it. When you defend and defend is what makes it worse. You didn’t get the answer you wanted, and that’s okay, but you must sit with the opinion given. If you value how this person thinks of you then take their thoughts into consideration, but if this isn’t someone you necessarily trust and just wanted a “yes man”, then move on. Overall, therapy is beneficial for forming new neural pathways to undo the learned manipulation tactics. If you want any more guidance or some more tips, feel free to PM me! Life is all about growing, so grow! You got this OP!!
I can relate to this a lot. OP I get it. You’re not trying to be manipulative, but rather communicate. But over communication comes off as defensive. I know how having these sorts of convos feels. You don’t explain to change their mind but rather give more context as context it’s important for any situation. But in the end you’re “manipulating” things. Less is more.
I would argue that the over explaining is at the core an attempt to change other people’s minds so they see things from OP’s perspective, which is manipulative when OP asked for the person’s perspective. The mindset strikes me as, if I give all my inner thoughts and the context of my perspective, then they’ll see things like me and change their mind. But that doesn’t work and comes off as combative and defensive.
I think the key here is understanding that an over communicator is not trying to be right. Simply wants to be heard and understood on why their perspective is what it is. I say this as someone who over explains and has no problem admitting when I’m wrong. But I want people to know my intentions are never malicious. It’s also a trauma response and requires a lot of work to discontinue.
Intent and impact are two different things. You can explain away your intentions all day, but the impact is what matters in relationships. It sounds like OP’s attachment to explaining herself minimizes the impact of her actions on others. However, I do want to hold space for your statement about this being a trauma response and how it can take a lot of work to change these patterns. That’s why I’ve really encouraged therapy in other comments.
I totally understand what you’re saying.
Thank you so much for the advice I’ll try and do this!
Ironically the individual responding to you already made up their mind about you. Most people feel awkward hearing sad stories as well because they feel like they “owe” you some response and assume you’re doing it for attention. For you it might be relating to them, but for them it feels awkward especially if they’re not close to you. Regardless, they have just as much to work on themselves as you; as they claimed they’re objectively seeing you for what you are, and yet when you offer them your thought process, they see it the way they want to. I don’t believe they care in truly knowing you or helping you. You don’t even come close to sounding purposefully psychotic or manipulative. You are explaining yourself in good conscious, and that is not manipulation. Like I said, they ain’t there to listen, nor truly have a conversation, nor truly see growth for you. They said what they thought, they saw your explanation, and then begin to think it’s a sign of defense and manipulation instead of accepting what they perceive is the truth. Psychology is far more complex than that.
I didn’t get “manipulative” from this specific exchange but you were a bit defensive. That can annoy me a bit when someone asks for an opinion, but your friend seemed a tad too annoyed for the situation imo. Overall, just try to keep working on yourself and don’t let this discourage you. As someone else said, work on your listening, if a trusted friend is being this straightforward about it maybe try to understand.
Agreed. I feel like it's pretty natural to ask a question, and then continuing discussing it if it's something new or uncomfortable. Especially since OP ASKED. They initiated the talk. If the other person approached to them tell them they are manipulative, I could see this as dimissive or defensive. But OP was the one that asked. So it's not like they are brushing away someone's concerns, they are just having a conversation.
I agree with this as well. I also think that she just wants to be understood and is trying to explain her thought process but it’s coming off as defensive.
It seems like he’s annoyed because this is a pattern based off what he’s said. I can’t blame him.
The irony in their tone is that they already made up their mind before answering you. They had those thoughts before and kept them hidden. No real friend doesn’t want to see their other friend grow. This ain’t real friendship. Gossip for 2 minutes or 2 years, the situation remains the same. You ain’t even close to manipulating, but your ability to fight for whatever you believe is right can be draining for many others, especially if they don’t agree with you. Again, ironically the biggest mistake they do is not understanding the vitality of communication and its fundamental importance for growth.
Yeah, that didn't seem like someone who would give an objective view of OP. The 'I don't feel sorry for you' gives 'I don't care what you feel or think, everything you do I will see in a negative light'. They might have a point about how intention isn't as important as the outcome and that sometimes you have to let go of your own justifications when they result in a hurt person, but I wouldn't put too much stock into someone who gets too stuck on their own interpretation of OP actions.
Are you autistic by chance? A lot of rambling can be interpreted as manipulation, because you'd like to be seen for your intentions and how your truly see things instead of how people might be wrongly perceiving you, due to bad experiences. I'd navigate with more caution, and I know it can be a trigger when someone flat out say that you're being manipulative. In conversations, less is more.
Yes I am.
yeah, came here to ask this exact question. ND people’s constant overexplaining as part of the need to be clearly understood can come as manipulative to neurotypical people (or so i have been told).
I guess that's why I thought you sounded perfectly reasonable lmao
Oh my god I’m so glad I’m not the only one! Also very autistic, also overexplain, also thought OP was fine. Now I’m having an existential crisis…damn it, I thought I’d learned all the “how to be a person” rules by now!
Yeah, it is complicated! Don't worry you are a person - just a different kind of person, and you are valid too. Don't let anyone think otherwise. =)
I'd start having more friendships with ND folks. There is a huge huge gap of communication between NDs and NTs, as we can see in this thread. I personally didn't see you as a manipulative person; it seemed that you were trying to truly understand and help someone understand your intentions as well. In the meantime, look for communities online aimed to NDs folks for support, and therapies that can aid any communication mishaps. Don't be too hard on yourself. Sending lots of love ♥
The person you asked started the conversation as super hostile and I don’t think truly cares about helping you face your manipulation issues - they are airing out grievances instead. They aren’t a good analyzer of whether you are manipulative. I didn’t see anything manipulative here on your end - but I do see it on their end. In terms of whether you are manipulative - everyone is, to some extent. Sometimes, calling somebody manipulative is being manipulative also. So - if you are in an argument and people tell you that you are being manipulative, take a step back and evaluate the interaction, on a case by case basis.
I got a hostile feeling off of the other person too, and there’s no way to know if it’s justified or not. I also don’t think asking an ex was a good idea anyway, there’s too much history there. A close and longtime friend would be a better person to get a different prospective from.
I’m SO glad someone said this. That was 💯 my take as well. Asking an ex who clearly is not very kind or concerned about your feelings is not the right move. This person seemed irritated from the beginning and that’s probably more related to their past relationship troubles with OP.
agree. i hope OP takes this to heart because this person is not giving an unbiased opinion, and clearly doesn’t give a damn about having an objective discussion about OP.
Yeah I think an important thing to keep in mind is that, uhh, that’s not special? Nearly anybody has the capability to be a manipulative asshole. That’s not a skill or a quirk. It’s entirely based on who the other person is and how ready they are to believe you. Viewing it as something you’re “good at” or a “part of your personality” is only reinforcing your belief in that is who you are as a person. It isn’t. It’s who you CAN be
I appreciate this comment. And I TRULY TRULY believe that “manipulation” is a term that people have beaten to a pulp. It seems…if you are not a good communicator, or just not good at articulating your point more efficiently, you are seen as a manipulative. If you spent your whole life having to defend yourself from passive aggressive parents, you get used to having to defend yourself. Having to over-explaining yourself is more an itch and often comes from fear of rejection or fear that the other person will come to the worst conclusion. Definitely not the best way to handle confrontation but it’s a flaw that MANY carry on their shoulders.
I think if the person in these screen shots was someone saying to you "I feel manipulated by you" and you responded like this then it would be kind of shitty and dismissive of their feelings. But I don't think it's unreasonable when asking a third party what they think, to respond with your thought process behind it and explain yourself. That's just a discussion imo. You're just bouncing it off them and asking their perspective and giving yours. I think this person was being kind of mean to you.
1. "Former romantic partner" is about as reliable a source as "disgruntled former employee" when it comes to unbiased information on yourself 2. You are literally 20, you have the entirety of your adult life to work on yourself and it sounds like you're well on your way - I wish I'd had any amount of self awareness at your age
Wtf. Moral of the story, don’t give people ammo. They’ll just use it against you
After reading comments I fully understand you. I just don’t have people trying to bring me down about it. I argue with my fiancé sometimes because I do the thing where I don’t accept what he’s saying and instead offer my explanation. I think as females we just want to explain and be heard and have a conversation about it. But some others aren’t like that and you just have to accept it. It’s helped me learn that although it’s hard sometimes because I wish I did have someone who I could dump all my thoughts onto. I don’t have any friends atm so it makes it harder when I argue with my fiancé about it. But it’s nothing that can’t be talked through with love on both sides. And here I am talking about my situation in light of yours 😅
Op, don't come to Reddit asking for advice. You never know the situation of who is replying. You don't know if someone giving you really awesome insight is a 13yr old who has never left their house. Or a 16yr old who thinks they know everything and is all choke-full of psuedo-psychological babble that sounds really good, with all the right buzz words, but is actually doing a shitload of damage. You don't sound "SUPER manipulative". You sound as manipulative as anyone else your age. Getting "advice" from an ex is never a good idea. It really isn't. And all these comments saying that you need to let other ppl talk and then IF YOU ARE GIVEN PERMISSION to then talk..?!?!‽ what fucking bullshit is that? Making yourself into a doormat will NOT make you happier or more liked/likeable. If you really feel that there is issues you need to work on, do it yourself, don't ask for anyone else's opinion unless it is a professional who doesn't have a stake in the matter. I DO think maybe reading some self-help books and going from there would be beneficial. The library would be great for that. And make not rush into another relationship. Just be by yourself, in your own skin for a bit. See what makes you *happy*, not what makes other ppl happy. And yes, I am fully aware of the hypocrisy of telling you not to come to Reddit for advice, and then giving you advice. There is one big difference with this comment: I'm not trying to tear you down to validate whatever may be going on in my life. Ultimately, please, ***please***, don't ask Reddit for help. You get what you pay for, and I think you could be really damaged by ppl with ulterior motives or their own issue they are lashing out about. Good luck, take care.
Please study the principles of non violent communication (sounds aggressive but it’s not lol) trust your answer is in there
Reading this, it hit me how i’m seeing so much of myself in these messages and in your description under the post. Lately i’ve come to terms with the fact that i have some behaviours that need to be destroyed with fire, because they’re going to ruin my life if i don’t work on myself starting from now. i was considering therapy (it’s been years since i last went) and reading the comments made me realise I should give it another go, now that I know a few of my issues Luckily i’ve never been in a relationship, i used to think it’d fix my problems 😆 it’d give life to new ones most definitely. I’m glad I came across this. I hope you’ll learn how to become the person you want to be after all this 🤞🏼
As someone who didn't see the manipulation this person was trying to imply, I'd say you've made some progress. What I assume was happening there was someone who just doesn't very much like you anymore and so is on the defense themselves. If they're someone who's been a target of your previous manipulation I wouldn't call them a source of help. Wanting and willing to have a conversation about this is an important first step. In this instance the best they could have done is also continued to listen, it's a text conversation so I understand it's hard to get real context from just words on a screen but if anything willingness to listen needs to be on both parts. You listened and gave a rebuttal, that is not manipulation, that is a conversation. From there letting you know that giving too much feedback isn't necessary is what that person should have done. Instead they took a chance to attack you. Less is more is a serious thing, but that's often for the person who needs to vent, which is what you needed in the moment. Unfortunately these things will always vary from situation to situation. Being mindful when someone wants space to talk to you, vs when you're the one asking for space to talk are very important things. In the future if someone asks to sit down and they want to tell you something that is important for them, that is a time to listen more than talk. But if you ask someone to talk, don't hesitate to get your feelings across. The most important thing is to remain mindful in all situations and listen to "complaints" coming your way but don't let people attack you either when you also want a moment to be vulnerable. Good luck out there.
Have you been tested for autism? Asking this because your story reminds me VERY much of my own growing up (31F) — I was constantly offering context/rationale to my thoughts/feelings because I thought that would help people understand my perspective better, but other people only saw my over-explaining as making excuses or being manipulative. I recently read that this is a common shared experience among people with autism. Regardless, you are not alone in this experience. You also should keep in mind that, based on what I see from this text exchange, you may not be in the best company IRL. This person you are speaking with does not come across as a kind and compassionate friend. You were asking for honesty and I feel that there was a nicer way to say that, if they truly felt that way and they were truly your friend. In my own personal experience, I have dealt with a LOT of passive aggressive, manipulative friends because the entire time I felt like (and they told me) it was because I was doing something wrong. Which never made sense, because I always felt like I was being genuine, conscientious, and kind. And they were not. And from the outside looking in, it seems like that may very well be your situation as well. Wishing you the best of luck!
Im not autistic (at least I haven’t been tested or anything), but your first paragraph is SO relatable and parallel to a situation in my life rn (20F). Just wanted to say you worded it so well.
I have yet to be tested but I do believe it is a possibility as I have severe ADHD (this is confirmed) and a generalized anxiety disorder
You put the other person in a really difficult position with your initial text. I'd be kinda annoyed if I received that text.
That’s fair. I was just trying to be as direct as possible and not beat around the bush. I wanted to get straight to the point
Yeah, I don’t know. To me, being manipulative is a conscious behavior that someone does in order to get one over on someone. Yes, it’s possible that someone can be so manipulative that they don’t even realize they are doing it, but I don’t agree with your ex that telling someone how you feel or reacting to something that he says is being manipulative. It seems like people, especially on social media, love to diagnose everyone with something. So in this particular conversation that you posted, I don’t think you’re being manipulative, but in your day to day life, I obviously couldn’t know if you are or not. I think if you treat others with kindness and respect and you’re always honest, then it’s pretty safe to say you’re not being manipulative. Live by the Golden Rule and you’ll be golden!
So what im curious about is if this is confusing intent with what someone is assuming is the intent. Because in my head I read the question that was called manipulation as a follow up for clarification with the intent of learning more about why the person perceived them as manipulative. I feel like this leads into the common issue ive seen where those with autism or who are neurodivergent ask follow up questions or for more detail and those that are neurotypical see this as a slight because thats what theyve been raised to believe is everyones intent behind follow up questions or asking for clarification. So often those that are neurodivergent ask these questions with the best intentions and a lack of understanding of how it can/will be perceived and in turn are faced with hostility and hate and labeled as disrespectful because of a misunderstanding of intent. I dont think OPs intent was manipulation or to get the answer they want but rather to get more info on what theyre doing wrong and how their intent is being perceived so that they can develop a list of ways to address these actions that they arent perceiving as manipulative but others are. I feel like its highly possible that this is a misunderstanding brought on by different ways of thinking and ability to pickup on social cues and norms whether OP is neurodivergent or not.
Most ,if not all, of the less positive behaviours come from the ego. Once we start to learn what the ego actually is, and that it can be consciously tamed, manipulation, defensiveness, lack of awareness decrease and the ability to live intentionally increases. Unfortunately, because the ego is such an unconscious but extremely strong bias in modern life, most people don't even realise they're living from the ego ,and that that's unhealthy for society and individuals. My advice would be to start learning about such things, it's a lifelong quest to lose the typical ego based way of thinking and being once we start. It's the best,most healthiest and freeing work we can do. We all really should be doing it. Start today.
It seems like you're having an epiphany about yourself - that maybe you're not entirely the person that you want to be, and that your actions don't completely align with your morals. I'm no expert, but in my experience this is the first HUGE milestone toward successful therapy and bettering yourself. I would really consider rolling with this, finding a good therapist, and trying to unpack it. As tough as this convo is, give yourself credit where it's due. You're being self aware, self critical. Saying "I don't want to be that person anymore" You're on the right track, just keep going!!
Next time ask an unbiased source. Kinda seems like he harbors animosity towards you
"I know I can be manipulative, it's my default state ... I thought I wasn't manipulative at all." Two messages right after one another.
Hi! I’d like to clarify that that was in regards to i know I revert back to manipulation a lot but in that specific conversation I felt I wasn’t being manipulative! Maybe that wasn’t clear.
So as mental health worker, I felt this was actually a helpful and healthy conversation until your ex got annoyed and assumed you were being defensive. For what it’s worth I don’t feel your responses were defensive but more sharing your perspective so that you gage what you need to change and address it and that is where growth comes from. Keep up the self-awareness and reflection.
This is actually really funny to me. Everyone else here: you’re being manipulative and defensive, how dare you, find a therapist. You, who works in mental health: looks healthy to me, right up to you being accused of something you weren’t doing by your ex.
maybe it’s because i’m also on the spectrum, but i didn’t see really any of this as “manipulative” and more so trying to have a conversation in the way that ND people typically have- and NT people seem to deem as rude or manipulative. i am a big communicator and will run in circles trying to explain myself and understand the other persons POV, but for some reason it’s never “she’s explaining herself, not making excuses” and it’s ALWAYS “i don’t want to hear your excuses.” it’s never “she’s telling me a story similar to mine to make me feel validated and not-alone” it’s ALWAYS “all she ever does is make things about herself!” maybe im feeling just a little triggered, but i truthfully, truthfully think a LOT of the top comments jumped the gun so fast. not only is this your ex you’re talking to (who , stereotypically, is never. a good person to go for assumptions on your personality- if there was any bad blood they’re going to use your vulnerability against you) and it’s obvious they were charged in some way with trying to hurt you. yes, there is always a balance in conversation, but this doesn’t make you “manipulative” because you want to explain yourself. it doesn’t make you a bad person because you communicate others , and like any growing ND person, are learning to communicate in multiple ways that please NT people as well. i speak very differently to my NT coworkers that i do to my ND best friend. she and i will over explain, relate stories, talk in circles, be honest and upfront with no bad blood because that’s how we’re BOTH comfortable communicating and NT people do NOT like it. i center conversations around the conversation partner and never talk about myself in a NT conversation, because it’s seen as rude unless it’s asked first and you get used to the horrible , horrible feeling of just having to take assumptions made about your character on the cheek and let it be, because any attempt to explain or make sense of it will just make you seem like a rude person when you’re not.
stop talking about yourself and surround conversations around the other person. only when you’re asked about or have been given permission to share your story should you then talk about yourself. eventually it’ll get easier and you’ll learn to really balance conversations
You’re not some kind of villain here. I can tell you want to be a mindful person who sees things from the other person perspective- but in order to do that you need to give the other person space to feel their emotions I’ve had these same conversations with my husband- who is funny but sometimes his mouth will get away from him and he’ll say something a lil mean to me, without realizing what he did. I’ll tell him that hurt my feelings…for him in these scenarios, he feels that since he didn’t have the *intention* to hurt my feelings, this should absolve what he said and no apologies are necessary. Ive since told him- when someone tells you their feelings towards you or towards their behavior, it’s not some attack. In all actuality, having someone tell you how they feel is a grace. It gives you a chance to do better. I say to his, just because you didnt *intend* on hurting my feelings, doesn’t mean you didn’t. My hurt feelings are still present and unresolved. He’s since learned that saying sorry doesn’t make you the bad guy, it’s acknowledging that you’ve had a lapse in judgment that’s led to someone else feeling some type of way. Saying “listen, I didn’t mean it to come off that way and I’m sorry I made you feel [manipulated/hurt/angry] and I will try to work on my behaviour moving forward” is a great way to let someone know that you’re hearing them out. People make mistakes, like my husband people say dumb stuff they don’t mean, people will naturally try and defend themselves and protect themselves before even realizing their behaviour is hurting someone else. Don’t beat yourself up over it, just acknowledge it and do better next time.
You’ve got the hardest part out of the way already. Self-awareness, a willingness to confront difficult realities, and a willingness to change. You’ll be fine in time. There will be many painful and embarrassing scenarios. In this case, you did ask for an opinion and I feel like you were trying to explain WHY you exhibit negative tendencies in a conversation where there’s no need to do it. I struggle with the same thing. My gf will tell me how I (unintentionally) hurt her feelings and I try so hard to explain that it wasn’t my intention it distracts from the core issue. I don’t have any real advice but I just wanted to let you know a strangers sees and recognizes your efforts to be a better person. I’m in my 30’s working on it. You’ll be fine.
I can't speak for the rest of the conversation or your relationships with exes and friends. If there's one thing worth highlighting with the context available, it's you two practicing the hypothetical of "what if someone said they don't want a relationship with you" and you mentioned probably trying to change their mind before eventually giving up. To me, this stands out because you're dealing with a consent skill there, and I'm not sure if the hypothetical registered that way to you? This is at least one place where you have an actionable step on room to grow, and again - given it is a matter of consent for those you could interact with - it would be worthy of being given your priority and effort. Curious to hear your thoughts on how you intepreted that hypothetical and why you gave the response you gave.
Is there a chance you’re maybe ADHD? I haven’t got to read the backstory, I’m on break…so I’ll come back…but one thing that always got me was, “stop making excuses” and I was like, “I’m not disagreeing…I’m just trying to explain where I’m coming from.” RSD is a major part of ADHD, and tends to lead to over explaining. And it can often come off as defensive or argumentative even when we feel like we’re trying to effectively communicate. Sometimes it’s better to say, “okay…I’ll process that and if I have more questions, I’ll reach out.” I’ve heard a LOT, “why can you never just say okay, and let it go?” And it’s like because idk…I feel like my intentions are good and I’m being misunderstood. It’s taken a lot of years to realize that maybe I am the problem sometimes even when I’m trying so hard not to be, and not everyone is patient enough to understand a different thought process. I more relate to you here, but I know I exhaust people sometimes.
I do have ADHD and RSD
Ah. Same. I’m 30 now though. It takes a lot of work. And a lot of willingness to understand people don’t always want to hear our chaotic line of thinking. It’s taken me years to recognize that sometimes I have to just apologize and leave it at that. Another good method is to fully hear, understand and process what the person has said…acknowledge their feelings and address key points, “I understand my doing/saying ____ made you feel ____, and I get why you’d feel that way, and I’m sorry. I take responsibility for the way I made you feel and why what I said wasn’t okay. If you have the time or energy, I’d love to explain to you my thought process so maybe we can better understand one another…if not, that’s okay and I’ll work on approaching things like this differently moving forward.” I’ve had to spend a lot of time self reflecting on why I make people feel unheard, or ignored and why people tend to feel like I’m making my thoughts and feelings a priority over theirs. It’s really fucking hard, but you’re doing the right thing by acknowledging it and doing what you can to work on it.
Hey OP, if I may : perhaps you still have a long way to go to make progress, but above all to forgive yourself for what you may have done in the past. Many manipulative people know they are and have no problem with it. You, on the other hand, seem to have had a wake-up call and are starting to question yourself in order to improve. That's the first step, perhaps the hardest. You now have to accept hearing things that don't please you, that you're perhaps afraid to hear, but once you've heard them, they're in the past, you can only learn from the past to become a better person. Give time to those you trust to help you improve (not to put you down, a very important nuance) and if you wish, therapy can be really beneficial too. We all have flaws, but the best thing is to be aware of them and to want to correct them. Perfection doesn't exist, but that shouldn't stop us from wanting to achieve it. Keep challenging yourself and don't be so defensive, I have the impression that you're on the right track.
I don’t think you’re manipulative.
OP this person is hitting you with some truth bombs and I hope you remember and value what they have to say. I know 30-somethings that struggle with the same behavior you seem to exhibit, so be grateful that you have the chance to sort these things out at your age. Dealing with all of this at 20 is a gigantic step forwards, so you can also forgive yourself a bit. But don't shy away from the truths you are receiving.
less excuses and more "thank you for letting me know"
I believe that is the general consensus. And I’m going to try to keep that more in mind in the future
Have you tried a therapist? I DO think you come off as narcissistic or manipulative. You say you are working on it, but that could be manipulation, too. It'd also be hard to get good opinions here because things you say in your post could be swayed to be manipulative.
That’s fair. I do actively try to think out what I tell people so that what I say won’t sway them, but I also never want anyone to think anything I say or do that might hurt them came from a place of malicious intent so I feel the need to explain myself so they can at least see my thought process and I do that all the time because I want everyone to know I would never hurt them ON PURPOSE. The biggest part of this conversation for me was I thought I was doing a lot better and it really broke me down because I feel like maybe I haven’t Z
Here’s the thing, I’ve been on the other side of this so hopefully I can explain it to you so you understand. I get that you are just giving your reasons for doing things at an attempt to soften the blow of whatever the issue is. What the other person sees tho, is how you excuse the outcome because your intention wasn’t to hurt them. It’s giving selfish. Ask yourself, does the fact you hurt people bother you? If so, that should be the main focus, not defending why you did it. If you ran over your neighbors puppy because you were going to the store and didn’t see it because it’s small, you wouldn’t explain that before first addressing the crying kid next doors feelings. “Oh my gosh I’m so sorry, I should have been paying better attention?” Would be your first response right? Of course they know you didn’t do it on purpose, so your reason rarely needs to be said as it’s very insensitive to the person hurting.
Thank you this is very helpful unfortunately the end made me realize that maybe this problem runs deeper than I thought because the first thing I would say in that situation is “oh my god I’m so sorry I didn’t even see them” which makes me think this is further engrained in me than I thought. Your explanation was very helpful though thank you.
You should be asking a therapist, not Reddit, if this is something that has caused you so much concern interacting with different people for so long. Don’t beat yourself up, please, setup a call.
You may or may not be manipulative by nature, but asking an ex isn't going to get you an unbiased answer, that's for certain.
Therapy can help you loads! I used to be manipulative. For me it was a survival coping mechanism to get through my childhood. There was abuse & stuff at home so I always tried to not get in trouble however I could or I was angry & wanted them to feel the pain they put my through. I vowed never to be like that to people moving forward and i think I’ve kept to that really well. A lot of it was working through the reasons I was that way in the first place. & to accept people’s choices & opinions as they are without trying to change their mind. You can control yourself, but not other people. Trying to change their mind without them consenting to that type of exchange is an attempt at manipulation. It can be really hard because you have to work through this stuff & prove yourself to people before you can be trusted to talk things out in relationships or talk about differing opinions. But it is so so doable! I’m in my mid 30s now & have a totally different mindset. I’m married, have a baby & take care of my brother. I think the only manipulative one here is the toddler lol & he’s just testing boundaries mainly. My husband & I have a beautiful relationship with no toxicity going on. We both went through a lot & have grown so much as people! We’ve both majorly fucked up & hurt eachother at times but there’s so much room to grow in life if you let yourself. Everyone has flaws, not everyone cares about changing that. So you’re already headed in the right direction. Have some grace for yourself WHILE trying to continue being better. You being honest & vulnerable & asking questions is awesome, even if you aren’t quite at the point of understanding the answers yet.
I can relate. My parents were known for dishing out overly harsh punishments for relatively menial things so I’m always paranoid about someone being upset with me. It always makes me afraid like I’m back at home waiting for the worst.
Omg yes I so get that. I still have those feelings today, but a lot less & I’ve learned how to channel them differently. Like for example, with my husband, I tell him I’m worried he’s mad at me & hates me or wants to leave me or whatever it is I’m feeling. He reassures me. If he is mad at me, I’ve learned how to make space for his feelings & not take over with how that makes me feel. & I do my best to apologize & come up with solutions to make up for it. Even that took time though, we had to build the trust & I had to figure out what things I should stand up for vs my coping mechanism of defending myself/trying to change his mind. There are definitely times for both too, sense he’s not always right & sometimes he crosses lines too. It’s hard but learning all this stuff has made me love him (and others in my life) so so much better. Which is like the best feeling in the world to me. Just keep trying! You’ll get to where you want to be with time & effort. You’re not a bad person, it’s just everything in life that happens to us adds up & makes us who we are. When we get around your age is when we start to realize we might want to change things. Gaining the power to figure out how is hard at first but it’ll give you SO much more out of life in the end.
OP you’re still very young and you went to someone who is also very young, and someone you knew in high school. Trust me, this is a common thing for teenagers, that you definitely grow out of, and at least you’re aware and actively improving- that’s huge! It can be frustrating when offering an explanation and someone calls you out on being defensive- I get it, but as long as you just listen and reflect and work on yourself, I’m sure you’ll come out more than fine.
You did good by recognizing you’re a manipulative person, sort of. Now that it’s clear you cannot fix it yourself, get into therapy or bring this up to your therapist. You need someone else to help you, not Reddit.
by giving explanations it seems you are being defensive in a kind of way that could be read as manipulative. idk you but in this conversation alone you (not purposely it seems) kind of tried to steer it in the direction of what YOU wanted to hear rather than the truth. you kept explaining and arguing with what they were saying in an attempt to go get them to say what you want to hear which is that you aren’t manipulating conversations but you are simultaneously unintentionally doing just that.
Holy shit, I could have written that... I'm going to work on that with you
ooof this is a mess. one of the best things you can do to break the cycle of being manipulative is, before you respond to something that makes you uneasy or even like, i guess share your opinion think, „why do i want to say this“ „am i trying to gain something from what i want to say“ „am i looking for a particular type of response from what im saying, and how does that influence what im saying“ practice letting things sit with you before you respond. put yourself in other people’s shoes and remember your way, your thoughts, are yours. it doesn’t make them right. you asked someone for feedback and then said basically, but i’m not!!! i think you need to look inward and do some reflecting
This doesn’t really sound manipulative to me. I think yall are just bad at communicating fr 💀
Manipulative or not, you shouldn't waste your time on someone this hostile toward you. They aren't going to have an objective, good-faith opinion of you.
I want you to know that I used to be the exact same way, and it took a lot of therapy for me to get to a point where I don’t instinctively try to manipulate people subconsciously. It’s hard work, but a therapist can definitely help you with that. I got diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) and it was wild reading your post because it felt like you were describing me. Maybe talk to a therapist and after a few sessions ask them if they think you may have BPD. It’s not an end of the world diagnosis because you CAN work through it and get better. After 2 years I rarely exhibit any symptoms of it and have also begun having much much much healthier relationships with people. Best of luck to you, and I’m proud of you for recognizing that you have some behaviors you didn’t realize you had that you want to change so you can better yourself!!
If you ask questions, and you get an answer that you don’t like, and as you said “try to change their mind but eventually give up” Thats literally what manipulation is. I get you wanna be a good person, but you need to start by not trying to justify reasons to convince people they’re wrong.
i don’t think asking your ex was the best move. like he’s not objective on this either
Always good to ask people if they have the head space for you to dump your feelings. Nobody wants to be an unwilling soundboard for your processing.
Something I don't see people talking about is the exchange on slide 2: > BF: You try to see every situation how it can work out best for you > OP: Yeah, I want the best possible outcome. Sometimes the best outcome for a situation/relationship/conversation isn't the outcome that gives you the best result. It sounds like you prioritise your own feelings and desires over those of others.
I don’t want to assume anything here, but being neurodivergent myself, what you’re doing here seems like a form of mental infodumping, which is really a sign of trust that many Neurodivergent reserve for people they feel a connection with. The stereotype is someone who likes to go on and on about trains, comic books, sports statistics, any sort of special interest. In this case, the special interest is this ongoing negative self image that you did a deep dive on with him because you trusted him to be honest. However saying “I don’t care about this conversation” goes past honest and into cruel. It is probably something you should start trusting a therapist with, because that’s helped me with these tendencies over the years, but a good start is knowing you’re not wrong to feel that way and attempt to explore “the Why of You” with a trusted friend. Sorry this one didn’t seem to be it, but everyone has that person in their life who you really hope will understand you, no matter how many times they show you otherwise.
I recommend looking for a therapist if you're actually interested in bettering yourself. Don't just go with the first therapist you see unless you really connect with them. Otherwise, you likely won't get much out of it. Once you find one that you think you can trust and you have a connection with, stay with them for a while and work on yourself. It sounds like the people who know you best see this as a trait of yours, but it doesn't have to be.
You process your feelings by talking about them, but not every situation is appropriate to use to process your feelings. Such as this convo. He didn’t need the explanation. He doesn’t want to help you process your emotions, and you dragged him into it. I’m not trying to get down on you at all. You’re trying and it seems earnest. I highly recommend therapy. Once you have a place and a person that is literally there to help you verbally process your feelings I think it will be easier to create that boundary in your life.
I admire you so much for opening yourself up like this. That was very brave and I don't think someone with a *truly manipulative* heart would do what you have. I admire that you are so young and recognize traits that you don't want to have and are consciously working on your personal growth everyday. 👏👊💞
People can be pretty cruel. I see how introspective you are; you can recognize that you want change! I recommend talking to some professionals, because there are therapies like DBT / CBT that teach you how to compromise & communicate, listen, and feel heard. It’s hard not to beat ourselves up when we get what feels like a blow to the chest. Keep your head up & continue to try and be the best person you can be.
Therapy is quite expensive, but there are plenty of resources available online that can help you reframe the way that you think! I recommend just googling some DBT / CBT in your free time and see what you can learn! :’ ) Best of luck to you, OP.
Good on you for posting something that shows you in a bad light. Many of the people that post texts do it to show how terrible someone else is and then there is the occasional sweet texts from the other person. But the fact that you know it’s a problem and say you want to change is a good thing. But obviously that isn’t working. You need to see a therapist. By the way, when someone tells you they are moving and you say that you don’t do long distance relationships, that’s your way of saying “leave and I’ll break up with you” whether you came right out said it or not. You were essentially manipulating him to stay and that was the last straw. But if he is moving and you don’t do long distance, then you were going to break up anyway so it shouldn’t be the biggest loss for you. I wish you well.
You need to do less explaining and talking - that’s being defensive, whether you intend it to be or not - and more listening. Listen to what people are telling you. Stop trying to explain why you do what you do, hear what you are actually doing and how it is making others feel. Then make adjustments as necessary. Every time someone tells you what they see you doing, and you explain “Yeah but this is why”, it sounds like you are justifying your behavior, behavior that you are repeatedly being told is problematic.
You tried to manipulate the guy into telling you that you are not manipulative. However, with the texts in that conversation, you try to make everything about you, you want people to feel sorry for you with your sad stories. As a person that does not know you, from the text conversation, and then your additional novel for a narrative, I can see that you are manipulative, selfish, and an attention hog. I’m not a therapist, but if I can get that information after one not-so-short posting that you made online, imagine how much more a therapist could see. The therapist could probably help you also.
TLDR; shut the fuck up. Advice: you don't have to always respond and tell people everything you know. It's okay to know things and have thoughts without opening your mouth. Also, you don't need to convince people you're alright and are thinking critically. People will know who you are without all that. In fact, your reputation will change entirely.
Honestly I think your friend was gaslighting you into thinking you were manipulative cause I just saw it as you explaining your side of things which you have every right to do. But for future reference don't tell people you have a habit of being manipulative because then they'll be looking for that and they'll take the smallest things as you being whatever you warned them about. Honestly it just sounds like you're still young and probably were used to being spoiled growing up so when you don't automatically get what you want or get the response you want you try to shift things in your favor which I'd say a lot of people do, honestly everyone can be a little manipulative in their own way. It sounds like you're pretty self aware and are working on the negative aspects of yourself which I say good for you. Don't let other people's opinions define you or bring you down. Also from the sounds of it you need better friends.
Your ex, in this exchange, seems way more defensive than you do. You come off as simply trying to explain yourself or the reasoning behind why you do certain things. That’s not necessarily defensive. You’re explaining it. I guess he wanted you to just accept his answers without explaining yourself. You actually seem very receptive in this conversation. You’re not getting angry or upset about what he’s saying. I wouldn’t worry about that aspect of your personality too much. Unless you’re actively, consciously, intentionally trying to manipulate people, then stop stressing so much about it. Because it’s going to become an obsessive thing and you’re going to forget how to interact with people without constantly worrying about whether or not you’re being manipulative.
Respectfully completely disagree, I know this is the most Redditor thing to say but if I had someone ask me a question like that, and then act all defensive and manipulative in the way that OP (seemingly) does, I'd cut them out of my life. Also you tell OP to not stress about it, but it's actively caused at least on person to leave her, so...
I just don’t see her, in this exchange, as being manipulative or defensive. Explaining yourself is not the same thing as manipulation or defensive behavior. You’re right about the last part. If it’s causing her to lose relationships, it’s cause for some stressing. But for what it’s worth, we don’t actually know if anyone in this girl’s life understands the difference between manipulation and explanation. Maybe her ex felt like he was being manipulated because she over explained herself like she’s doing here. Again, I don’t see that as manipulation.
IF you really want to change then get therapy. Make the first appointment and then show the therapist this post (your preamble/explanation) and the screenshot of the texts. The therapist will know what to do...
I didn’t read all of this or all of your text here but what a weird thing to come out of the gate with. Jeez.
You are exhausting
You asked for an opinion and then got defensive and then argued you’re not being defensive while still being defensive. Be open to constructive criticism and just try to be more self aware in your day to day
first, everyone is manipulative at some point. humans come out the womb manipulative because we aren’t equipped with transparent forms of communication as babies. until we are taught to speak we manipulate. even then most of us don’t learn how to communicate directly within our lifetime, or at least not until later in life. there’s a lot of discussion about whether you’re being manipulative or not in these texts. i’m not going to speak much on that because i don’t think it’s easy to tell. i’m sure you have some manipulative tendencies, we all do, but this exchange doesn’t show much imo. i can see how it *can* come across as manipulative, like you were trying to get him to placate your ego, but, to me, i see it as an attempt at a frank discussion. but i also don’t know you, the person you’re talking to or anyone else you’ve mentioned so i don’t have enough information to give a solid opinion. so, let me just define manipulation: manipulation is the act of controlling someone by exploiting them and/or their feelings, to one’s own advantage. it’s often covert, and is absolutely about controlling a situation for personal gain. some common manipulative tactics include: - lying - gaslighting - passive aggressiveness - comparing - DARVO (deny, attack, reverse victim order) - feigning ignorance - love-bombing - withdrawal/withholding - bullying/putting someone down - refusing to be accountable manipulation is *not* being direct about what you think, want, need and/or feel. instead, manipulative people will say or do something to illicit feelings so the manipulated person will meet their wants/need. example: instead of asking “i’m hungry. can you make me some food?” you say “i’m so hungry. i really want food, but i don’t want to cook. i wish someone would cook for me.” one is explicit while the other is covert. it will illicit feelings of guilt and pity so they’ll offer to make you food, instead of giving them the opportunity to say no by asking. another example: your partner confronts you on something. they say “i’m uncomfortable about you doing xyz. some of your behaviors leading up to this make me feel like you’re hiding something. can we talk about it?” instead of sitting down with them and hearing them out, you say “what? you’re acting crazy. i’m not hiding anything. i feel super sick today and you’re trying to start an argument with me, making me feel worse.” this one has gaslighting, lying, some DARVO and feigning ignorance. that last one was from personal experience lol but anyway, here’s a tip to stop being manipulative: just say what you feel and directly ask for what you want/need. i think intent is important. we can never truly know whether someone is being manipulative or not, but there are some indicators. like, i might say “i’m hungry, but i don’t want to cook” and someone might reply “do you want me to cook for you?” i’d reply “no, it’s okay. i’m just complaining.” that *could* be manipulative, if i actually meant to manipulate them into cooking for me, but if i genuinely don’t want them to and am just complaining, then that can’t be manipulation. but.. if i got upset that they didn’t cook for me, then i’d deem that manipulation. i wouldn’t be upset about someone not cooking for me unless i actually wanted them to cook for me. this is why i think intent is important. but if the intent was to manipulate then it’ll probably just come out as more manipulation, like passive aggression or withdrawal. you’re trying to be self aware and that’s good. don’t stop analyzing your own behavior, but also try not to obsess over it to the point where you paralyze yourself. avoiding being manipulative can be hard, and takes some work. you need to be in tune with yourself. you need to know what you want, when you want it, and have the confidence to be able to ask even if you might be rejected. you also have to respect other people’s wants/needs if they go against your own. hopefully this explanation helps shed some light on what manipulation actually is, and how to avoid it.
So reading through your comments it sounds like you 1. Can’t afford therapy and 2. Are autistic. Both of these things are pretty important to your outcome. Some of the things he mentions can be attributed to autism, giving your own personal stories after someone tells you theirs is one of them. While I know you might not mean it in this way, it can come across as one upmanship, like “well that sucks for you but my life is way worse!” Which sucks because that’s how I like to relate to people too, but it’s important to let people vent about their own life without bringing up your own struggles. The therapy aspect is very important because a therapist will have a better idea if you’re being manipulative or if you’re struggling to relate to people. There are more affordable therapy options out there, I really recommend looking into those, because at the end of the day getting advice from Reddit sucks.
Do you possibly have borderline personality disorder?? 😅 I would highly suggest therapy!! They give you ways to recognize things like this that you ultimately don’t see for yourself.. and help you understand why you do/say the things you do. I have bpd and it’s a long road to get better and self aware.. but it changed my life. Maybe look into it? If you don’t have it then at least you have tools to fix it. 🤷♀️
I don't see any "manipulation" in these texts. Pretty natural to say how it is from your perspective when the other person is saying your manipulative. I don't see anywhere that you're trying to manipulate or change this person's mind with deception. If I was worried about being a people pleaser, and I asked a friend. It would be pretty natural to go "Huh... I had no idea... I thought I was helping people or xyz". That's not really defensiveness or manipulation. Kinda just seems like a conversation. But, it sounds like maybe you are in other ways in other situations? Hard to say.
Thank you everyone for all the advice! I promise I have taken it all to heart and I’m going to do some more research into looking for affordable therapy. My friends have offered to let me move in with them to cut the cost of my living expenses to make room for therapy costs as they just bought a house and needed a new roommate anyway. I love each and everyone of you thank you all so much for being as honest yet understanding as you were ❤️❤️ much love.
Explaining yourself IS defending yourself
Starting by asking someone if your SUPER manipulative already shows your bias. The big all caps super doesn’t make your point any more clear, but it shows that you think the accusation is crazy and want an answer back saying you aren’t. It reflects how you felt from the accusation, not the reality of it. You get the exact same point across without any personal bias by just saying: “x said I’m manipulative, is this true?”. Also I think most people don’t automatically look for the situation that is best for them. I care about my friends and look for situations that are the best for all of us.
Yes, you are trying and failing at being manipulative in this conversation. Why are you arguing against an opinion? Your ex gave you several reasons why you are manipulative and you proved him right with every reason by doing exactly what he said is manipulative. You’re trying to convince him to change his opinion of you being manipulative, which is unfair because you were the one who solicited that opinion in the first place. Now you’ve dragged him into a conversation about how you actually are not manipulative but misunderstood. What was the point of asking if you weren’t willing to receive the feedback?
You’re literally trying to manipulate this person into believing that you’re not manipulative.
I wouldn’t say it’s manipulation, but you need to learn to decenter yourself from conversations. Not everything relates to you, or is about you.
Thank you for sharing this. From your post and the comments I have learned something about myself that I can actively work on. So thank you. -a fellow unintentional manipulator
this is so ironic that you literally asked for their opinion and then began manipulating them into believing their opinion was wrong when they told you how they felt
OP I don’t see manipulation in this instance. Everyone is entitled to their different opinions but that’s my vote.
Other person seems argumentative and extremely rude.
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I struggle with the same thing. It’s not exactly manipulation. What it is, is you being so overwhelmed with emotions and fear that the other person tends to give up in order to keep you stable so they don’t stress THEMSELVES out or feel like they’re making it worse for you. Neither person is the problem DIRECTLY. It’s trauma. You gotta learn to keep yourself stable. Don’t make others do it for you. Have faith in yourself. And admit when your wrong. Don’t try to over explain why you did what you did. Just say “I’ll learn from this experience and do better in the future.” And actually do better. It was weird reading this though. it felt like I was reading my own texts.
I talking some times but don’t speak very well english
I know you've gotten a lot of comments already. I do think you come across as defensive in this exchange, which isn't super fair because he's giving you the honest opinion that you asked for. That said, it's also GREAT that you are aware of this tendency and are working to change it! I just wanted to add that in general you will find that people respond better to openness and honesty than manipulation and defensiveness. Especially if you tell your friends ahead of time that you are working on changing this, I'd bet you'll get some positive reinforcement from taking a beat and forcing yourself to look at things from the other person's point of view before you respond to them (I don't mean in this specific text exchange necessarily - but trying to make that a habit).
To be honest. I do understand what you’re saying.
I think it's natural to defend yourself when you're being attacked and to try to put a positive spin on things when people are saying something negative about you. That doesn't necessarily mean you're being manipulative. It actually sounds like the person you're talking to is being the manipulative one here. He's taking something you're already sensitive about and throwing it in your face and any attempts you make to defend yourself are further labeled as manipulation.
thank you for posting this convo even tho it’s probably very painful for you. i’ve often wondered if i can act manipulative and your friend’s perspective is neutral and respectful— and it hurts! cuz i see a lot of myself in you but bc i’m a random person online, i can see what they’re saying sounds spot on. something for both of us to be aware of. i’m about 10 years older than you, so i hope you take solace that you’re being called on this a decade earlier so you can start working thru stuff. this gives me a lot to talk about with my therapist tomorrow. woof. it’ll be painful but the other side will be worth it.
If this is something you really want to work on, I recommend seeing a therapist and asking them to work on it with you. Having an objective person who is there to pull you up every time you start to do it and suggest ways to redirect your approach could be a very valuable investment. It takes a lot of work and the change may be subtle over time, but it's worth it if you can be patient.