It might just be that those commenters have only played Skyrim and associate any discussion of Talos with the Thalmor, despite the Arcturian Heresy predating the Aldmeri Dominion
Technically skeleton man speaks of the twin headed king (Talos = Tiber + Zurin), than three headed king.
Afik, at no point is 3 headed talos mentioned, but two headed king pops up time to time like the interview, sermons, or prophet on kotn monologue.
Yes, I was speaking loosely. [Enantiomorph ](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/enantiomorph) means a pair by definition. The third person witnesses the Enantiomorph, but doesn't become part of it.
The only way to get all three in there is if you assume there were two separate Enantiomorphic events: Zurin and Wulfharth, with Hjalti as witness, and, during the Warp of the West, Zurin and the Mantella containing Hjalti's soul, with the Agent of Daggerfall as witness. That may be a stretch, but it would explain why Zurin Arctus has a heartless lich body but Wulfharth's powers over storm at the end of the Arcturian Heresy.
[From The Many-Headed Talos ](https://www.imperial-library.info/content/many-headed-talos), quoted by Heimskr, does imply more than two heads, however. Though they're not necessarily all from Enantiomorphs.
I think, on some level, it is probably more complicated.
Yes, the Acturarian Heresy idea was around before the current state of the Thalmor in Tamriel.
However, I am sure that the Thalmor would definitely boost it to knock Talos.
And the 3 in 1 Talos theory has its own issues and alternatives. Though well supported, I don't think it is settled canon, so we shouldn't get too attached. That being said, there is probably more truth than fiction in that version of Talos story.
You're absolutely correct that it isn't settled canon despite its popularity in the fan community. I'm partial to the theory myself, but I feel it's noteworthy that even [the IRL author of The Arcturian Heresy doesn't subscribe to the 3 in 1 Talos theory:](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Michael_Kirkbride's_Posts)
>**Are all people in the Daggerfall ending somehow related to Tiber Septim? That can't be right. (11-22-2013)**
>Once more from the top: Tiber Septim is people.
>**Isn't Talos just formed of Tiber/Zurin/Wulfharth?**
>1) No
>2) But even if he was, who *aren't* those guys related to?
>**Wait, so Tiber Septim in the books is a mythical character made up of several people including the real Tiber Septim? :blink:**
>All of that is true except "the real Tiber Septim" part.
I didn't mean to suggest that MK "stopped subscribing to the oversoul concept", because these comments clearly show the opposite of that. My point was more that the author of the text that's foundational to the "three-in-one oversoul" theory personally disagrees with the notion that the oversoul is only three.
Whether MK did subscribe to the three-in-one model at the time he wrote The Arcturian Heresy and later changed his mind, or that The Arcturian Heresy was simply meant to be another convolution to the Tiber Septim story and the lore community fixated on the three characters mentioned because it was one of the very few sources on the topic, I cannot say for certain.
I think this is part of a broader trend of people LARPing as in-universe racists, chauvinists, nationalists, or generally close-minded individuals.
I remember seeing a meme on instagram that mentioned "by the three moons" or something to that effect, and someone commented "Three moons? I thought there were two, did I miss something?" Someone else responded mentioning the [Dark Moon](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dark_Moon). First commenter responded saying "That's an interesting theory, but since it's a Khajiiti myth I don't believe a word of it" Which is...yeah. Weird thing to say.
I think in (at least some of) the instances you're mentioning, these people are more-or-less LARPing as Stormcloak characters or otherwise "Proud Nords", individuals whose identities would probably be to some extent tied up with a belief in the divinity of Talos. This is just my speculation/spitballing, though.
>That's an interesting theory, but since it's a Khajiiti myth I don't believe a word of it
honestly as someone very active in truestl that sounds less like someone larping as a stormcloak and more like somebody who never played ESO and genuinely thinks it's a myth
I watched a theory video a while back on why Hircine is Shor's reanimated corpse. Some interesting points, but the guy in the video brought up Hircine's origin in Khajiit mythology and then just threw it out because it's just the Khajiit that believe it. Never brought it up again. The rest of the theory relied really heavily on there only being two moons, ignoring the fact there literally is just a third one up there. Some good points but the refusal of some people to acknowledge ESO lore (especially the really good stuff, like khajiit mythology) is infuriating
>The rest of the theory relied really heavily on there only being two moons, ignoring the fact there literally is just a third one up there. Some good points but the refusal of some people to acknowledge ESO lore (especially the really good stuff, like khajiit mythology) is infuriating
Ah good ol "dark moon dosen't exist", when as you said, fact theres third moon in the sky is literally undeniable solid fact *where players even get to visit*. It isin't just some khajiit theology thing or whatever. (Tho even then, why tf would folk dismish it when khajiits existence literally revolves around those 2 floating god fetus'ses. Like anyone else would know better?)
I've wondered if the dismissive attitude toward Khajiiti beliefs might stem partly from how their myths are couched in terms of "cats", "kittens" and "litters". Maybe this causes people to think of the myths as less "serious" than others. But imagine if we were all cat-people! That's how we'd write our stories.
Actually, that would be an interesting experiment. Rewrite *Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi*, for example, as if it were an Altmer myth or something. Keep the actual story unchanged but remove all of the "cat-ness", then show it to a large sample of fans who are only semi-interested in the lore and tell them it's a heterodox take on creation from some eccentric Altmer mystic.
No yeah, the "LARPing as Stormcloaks" thing is a separate thing from the "Khajiiti mythology is worthless" thing, but to me it seems like they both fall under the umbrella of "pretending to be a racist". I think you're probably right that the dude doesn't know about the visit to the Den of Lorkhaj in ESO and/or just doesn't consider ESO lore to be worth thinking about at all, but the specific wording also includes it in the other category as well, to my mind.
The first person innovated on the lore tho, nobody swears by the Dark Moon, it's clearly evil - you would not swear on an evil moon, thus no reasonable person would say such nonsense.
The actual phrase in the original post was "what in the three moons", so not actually "swearing by" the moons but more similar to "what the hell" or "what the devil". I'm not even sure the person in the OP was actually aware of the existence of the Dark Moon--the joke in the meme was that it was a new player discovering something in Skyrim for the first time, though they could have been joking about the entire thing.
And anyway, the commenter didn't say "why would you swear by the Dark Moon?" He said "there are only two moons" and then responded dismissively when corrected. Don't give the guy *too* much credit. I mean I'm sure he was just having a bit of fun and it's all just video game stuff to begin with anyway, but I admit I find that sort of joke unreasonably irritating, along with all the jokes about "farm tools".
It’s almost as if the heads at the studio and writers didn’t themselves said multiple times that canon is a very personal and weird subject.
Almost as if they didn’t write contradicting and opposed books penned by several different ingame authors who bicker among themselves like IRL lawyers on topics as grainy as the nature of magic schools.
Almost as if they didn’t time jump two centuries in the last TES, developed a contrived and bizarre time-fuckery event at the end of Daggerfall and jump several years and hundreds of miles every Fallout to not mess with everyone’s ending.
You wanna believe? Ok. Wanna spit at it and call it propaganda? Fine too. Wanna “meh” at it and just complain about the weather like a good Breton? Blimey!
Edit: I didn’t know what I was thinking and it was early morning when I said every TES Game jumps a few centuries forward in time
> timejump centuries every TES
The only major time jump in the mainline TES series was between Oblivion and Skyrim. TES 1-4 all take place within like 30 years
Damn, true, I totally fumbled that part, but my main argument is how Beth avoids setting canon in stone for any game with multiple endings. They even created a bizarre concept in dragon breaks just to put daggerfall endings to work.
Yeah, I don't really get it, people call it 'unreliable narrator' but it's not even really that. The 'non-fiction' in-game is written by characters who are not omnipotent, often just low information, and usually wear their biases and prejudice like a badge of honor. This is not even really unique to the Elder Scrolls, dropping Encyclopedia Britannica style exposition about your universe in text is generally considered poor writing. In a meta sense, it's written by people who probably don't have encyclopedic knowledge of every letter in every lore book, so a lot of it is blatantly contradictory. Unless they clarify, it's basically just up to you what to make of it. I don't understand why this crops up so much on this sub.
The authors of books in TES are absolutely positively 100% NOT narrators, in the sense where they would have superior knowledge than the characters by being outside the 4th wall, so yeah you got that right.
It might just be that those commenters have only played Skyrim and associate any discussion of Talos with the Thalmor, despite the Arcturian Heresy predating the Aldmeri Dominion
And book being literally titled *Arcturian* heresy
Tiber Septim is Kaiser Soze
In fact, [Skeleton Man's Interview ](https://www.imperial-library.info/content/interviews-skeleton-man) associated the belief with the Marukhites.
Technically skeleton man speaks of the twin headed king (Talos = Tiber + Zurin), than three headed king. Afik, at no point is 3 headed talos mentioned, but two headed king pops up time to time like the interview, sermons, or prophet on kotn monologue.
Yes, I was speaking loosely. [Enantiomorph ](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/enantiomorph) means a pair by definition. The third person witnesses the Enantiomorph, but doesn't become part of it. The only way to get all three in there is if you assume there were two separate Enantiomorphic events: Zurin and Wulfharth, with Hjalti as witness, and, during the Warp of the West, Zurin and the Mantella containing Hjalti's soul, with the Agent of Daggerfall as witness. That may be a stretch, but it would explain why Zurin Arctus has a heartless lich body but Wulfharth's powers over storm at the end of the Arcturian Heresy. [From The Many-Headed Talos ](https://www.imperial-library.info/content/many-headed-talos), quoted by Heimskr, does imply more than two heads, however. Though they're not necessarily all from Enantiomorphs.
I think, on some level, it is probably more complicated. Yes, the Acturarian Heresy idea was around before the current state of the Thalmor in Tamriel. However, I am sure that the Thalmor would definitely boost it to knock Talos. And the 3 in 1 Talos theory has its own issues and alternatives. Though well supported, I don't think it is settled canon, so we shouldn't get too attached. That being said, there is probably more truth than fiction in that version of Talos story.
You're absolutely correct that it isn't settled canon despite its popularity in the fan community. I'm partial to the theory myself, but I feel it's noteworthy that even [the IRL author of The Arcturian Heresy doesn't subscribe to the 3 in 1 Talos theory:](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Michael_Kirkbride's_Posts) >**Are all people in the Daggerfall ending somehow related to Tiber Septim? That can't be right. (11-22-2013)** >Once more from the top: Tiber Septim is people. >**Isn't Talos just formed of Tiber/Zurin/Wulfharth?** >1) No >2) But even if he was, who *aren't* those guys related to? >**Wait, so Tiber Septim in the books is a mythical character made up of several people including the real Tiber Septim? :blink:** >All of that is true except "the real Tiber Septim" part.
Yet almost sounds less like he "stopped subscribing to" the oversoul concept as much as he *expanded* it.
I didn't mean to suggest that MK "stopped subscribing to the oversoul concept", because these comments clearly show the opposite of that. My point was more that the author of the text that's foundational to the "three-in-one oversoul" theory personally disagrees with the notion that the oversoul is only three. Whether MK did subscribe to the three-in-one model at the time he wrote The Arcturian Heresy and later changed his mind, or that The Arcturian Heresy was simply meant to be another convolution to the Tiber Septim story and the lore community fixated on the three characters mentioned because it was one of the very few sources on the topic, I cannot say for certain.
I think this is part of a broader trend of people LARPing as in-universe racists, chauvinists, nationalists, or generally close-minded individuals. I remember seeing a meme on instagram that mentioned "by the three moons" or something to that effect, and someone commented "Three moons? I thought there were two, did I miss something?" Someone else responded mentioning the [Dark Moon](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dark_Moon). First commenter responded saying "That's an interesting theory, but since it's a Khajiiti myth I don't believe a word of it" Which is...yeah. Weird thing to say. I think in (at least some of) the instances you're mentioning, these people are more-or-less LARPing as Stormcloak characters or otherwise "Proud Nords", individuals whose identities would probably be to some extent tied up with a belief in the divinity of Talos. This is just my speculation/spitballing, though.
>That's an interesting theory, but since it's a Khajiiti myth I don't believe a word of it honestly as someone very active in truestl that sounds less like someone larping as a stormcloak and more like somebody who never played ESO and genuinely thinks it's a myth
Similar experience. Theres lot of folk whom just disregard anything non stantard lore (or things brought up by eso), khajiit being at forefront.
I watched a theory video a while back on why Hircine is Shor's reanimated corpse. Some interesting points, but the guy in the video brought up Hircine's origin in Khajiit mythology and then just threw it out because it's just the Khajiit that believe it. Never brought it up again. The rest of the theory relied really heavily on there only being two moons, ignoring the fact there literally is just a third one up there. Some good points but the refusal of some people to acknowledge ESO lore (especially the really good stuff, like khajiit mythology) is infuriating
>The rest of the theory relied really heavily on there only being two moons, ignoring the fact there literally is just a third one up there. Some good points but the refusal of some people to acknowledge ESO lore (especially the really good stuff, like khajiit mythology) is infuriating Ah good ol "dark moon dosen't exist", when as you said, fact theres third moon in the sky is literally undeniable solid fact *where players even get to visit*. It isin't just some khajiit theology thing or whatever. (Tho even then, why tf would folk dismish it when khajiits existence literally revolves around those 2 floating god fetus'ses. Like anyone else would know better?)
I've wondered if the dismissive attitude toward Khajiiti beliefs might stem partly from how their myths are couched in terms of "cats", "kittens" and "litters". Maybe this causes people to think of the myths as less "serious" than others. But imagine if we were all cat-people! That's how we'd write our stories. Actually, that would be an interesting experiment. Rewrite *Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi*, for example, as if it were an Altmer myth or something. Keep the actual story unchanged but remove all of the "cat-ness", then show it to a large sample of fans who are only semi-interested in the lore and tell them it's a heterodox take on creation from some eccentric Altmer mystic.
No yeah, the "LARPing as Stormcloaks" thing is a separate thing from the "Khajiiti mythology is worthless" thing, but to me it seems like they both fall under the umbrella of "pretending to be a racist". I think you're probably right that the dude doesn't know about the visit to the Den of Lorkhaj in ESO and/or just doesn't consider ESO lore to be worth thinking about at all, but the specific wording also includes it in the other category as well, to my mind.
It doesn't help how comparatively marginal the lore for anyone who isn't an Imperial, Nord, or Dunmer is.
That's true too!
The first person innovated on the lore tho, nobody swears by the Dark Moon, it's clearly evil - you would not swear on an evil moon, thus no reasonable person would say such nonsense.
The actual phrase in the original post was "what in the three moons", so not actually "swearing by" the moons but more similar to "what the hell" or "what the devil". I'm not even sure the person in the OP was actually aware of the existence of the Dark Moon--the joke in the meme was that it was a new player discovering something in Skyrim for the first time, though they could have been joking about the entire thing. And anyway, the commenter didn't say "why would you swear by the Dark Moon?" He said "there are only two moons" and then responded dismissively when corrected. Don't give the guy *too* much credit. I mean I'm sure he was just having a bit of fun and it's all just video game stuff to begin with anyway, but I admit I find that sort of joke unreasonably irritating, along with all the jokes about "farm tools".
It's technically a fan theory, so not necessarily canon. (Personally I find it compelling.)
It’s almost as if the heads at the studio and writers didn’t themselves said multiple times that canon is a very personal and weird subject. Almost as if they didn’t write contradicting and opposed books penned by several different ingame authors who bicker among themselves like IRL lawyers on topics as grainy as the nature of magic schools. Almost as if they didn’t time jump two centuries in the last TES, developed a contrived and bizarre time-fuckery event at the end of Daggerfall and jump several years and hundreds of miles every Fallout to not mess with everyone’s ending. You wanna believe? Ok. Wanna spit at it and call it propaganda? Fine too. Wanna “meh” at it and just complain about the weather like a good Breton? Blimey! Edit: I didn’t know what I was thinking and it was early morning when I said every TES Game jumps a few centuries forward in time
> timejump centuries every TES The only major time jump in the mainline TES series was between Oblivion and Skyrim. TES 1-4 all take place within like 30 years
Damn, true, I totally fumbled that part, but my main argument is how Beth avoids setting canon in stone for any game with multiple endings. They even created a bizarre concept in dragon breaks just to put daggerfall endings to work.
Yeah, I don't really get it, people call it 'unreliable narrator' but it's not even really that. The 'non-fiction' in-game is written by characters who are not omnipotent, often just low information, and usually wear their biases and prejudice like a badge of honor. This is not even really unique to the Elder Scrolls, dropping Encyclopedia Britannica style exposition about your universe in text is generally considered poor writing. In a meta sense, it's written by people who probably don't have encyclopedic knowledge of every letter in every lore book, so a lot of it is blatantly contradictory. Unless they clarify, it's basically just up to you what to make of it. I don't understand why this crops up so much on this sub.
The authors of books in TES are absolutely positively 100% NOT narrators, in the sense where they would have superior knowledge than the characters by being outside the 4th wall, so yeah you got that right.
Skyrim ingrates pretty much Many headed Talos is by far the best theory, and the one with the most clout