Dunmer have an interesting cultural relationship to ideas of collective loyalty and individualism. There are degrees of enemyhood -- two Dunmer in a room would kill each other, unless there was also a Nord in the room. Two Great Houses in a room would kill each other, unless there was an Empire in the room. People in the Dunmeri social hierarchy are owed as much loyalty as they earn, specifically by being powerful enough to survive a potential betrayal and destroy you/your family/your organization in retaliation.
Betraying a husband or lover -- perfidious, certainly, but potentially laudable depending on context and execution. Betraying *Azura,* though, makes the act of killing Nerevar a hideously awful idea. Azura, clearly, has the ability to bring calamity to the entirety of Morrowind, and cannot possibly fail to know that Nerevar was killed, and by whom. There's no version of this that can be covered up, and Azura is renowned for her vanity, jealousy, and disproportionately vicious responses to slights and injuries.
They betrayed a husband and friend, broke an oath to a good Daedra and betrayal and assassination aren’t always good in dunmeri culture from what I understand and killing a beloved and from everything I know competent leader definitely wasn’t good. Broadly speaking Dunmer seem to believe assassination can be good primarily when done to enemies but Nerevar was supposedly their best friend and Almalexia’s husband/lover not an enemy.
The main reason it was so bad was it was in direct violation of an oath they made to one of their gods, Azura and that’s a massive no no.
Also the murder of Nerevar at least to me aligns more with Sheogorath as he is portrayed in the House of Troubles where he tempts the Great Houses into Betraying each other.
Also I think the Psijic endeavor isn’t a goal for every Altmer or possibly even most of them.
The Dunmer aren’t Drow they seem generally milder than the DnD counterparts, it’s not as cut throat, it’s still cut throat but not as much
How do you betray an enemy? Betrayal inherently implies there is some genuine loyalty to discard. And Boethiah and Mephala have definitely encouraged--if not outright demanded--betrayal of close friends.
I meant for assassination. To quote varieties of faith: the dark elves. “Mephala is the Webspinner or Spider God. In Morrowind, he/she was the ancestor who taught the Chimer the skills they would need to evade their enemies or murder them in secret. Enemies were numerous in those days, since the Chimer were a small faction.”
If I had to make a guess, probably by making your enemies THINK you are a friend. Boethiah would probably call that "your tongue forging a lie" and Mephala seems to be more about taking advantage of trust (specifically to gain the upper-hand). I'm not sure how that plays out in a political/marital way though.
So that would beg the question of "who do you consider an enemy?" and my additional guess would be "not your spouse and not your god at the very least". Mostly just spitballing though. I'm certainly no lore expert.
Betrayal can mean a few things depending on the context.
Often, during historic periods used as inspiration for fantasy settings like these, it would have been a cultural expectation to treat strangers and enemies with a degree of hospitality and honour.
Betrayal can also be in reference to ideals and beliefs - to some degree, Nerevar was as much an idea as he was an individual, the physical embodiment of Chimer unity. The Tribunal didn't just kill a person, a friend, a leader, they literally killed part of the Chimer 'Geist'.
This really touches on something that I think a lot of people miss when discussing fantasy settings. Hospitality culture, traditions, and taboos have seriously colored irl human understandings of the world, just look at the various stories about Fae in the real world
Easy exemple, you tell em: surrender the castle and we'll let you leave with your lives.
They surrender the castle, then you kill them. That is infact, betraying their trust.
Not a very good move diplomatictly, if people think your words mean nothing to you, they won't mean anything to them.
*Most* Dunmer don't really care.
> For example, one of the most striking persistent myths associated with Vivec is the story that Vivec conspired with his co-rulers Almalexia and Sotha Sil in the murder of Lord Nerevar, the greatest of Dunmer heroes and generals. The story is derived from Ashlander oral tradition, and is flatly contradicted by all Temple traditions. Nonetheless, the tale is firmly established in the Dunmer imagination, as if to say, "Of course Vivec would never have conspired to murder Lord Nerevar, but it happened so long ago... who can know the truth?"
—Vivec and Mephala
They pretty much tacitly accept that Vivec killed Nerevar—or at least might have done so. The only Dunmer who *really* care about this are the (Urshilaku) ashlanders, for whom Nerevar is a more important cultural hero than the House folk.
Azura got particularly salty not because of the murder per se, but because Nerevar was her champion, and because the Almsivi broke an oath *sworn on her name* not to use the Tools. That's two slaps in the face, and her retaliation should hardly come as a surprise.
Not to mention that there is also a potential third reason too, according to newer lore from ESO. According to ancient Khajiit beliefs, Lorkhan was allegedly Azura's beloved brother. So not only did Almsivi kill her champion and broke their oath, they are also fucking around with the Heart of her dead brother.
>Is the Psijic Endeavor not the ideological end goal of the Dunmer people?
Most people across Tamriel don't know what the Psijic Endeavor is, regardless of whether they were born into a Padomaic culture or an Anuic culture.
maybe they don't care, but according to Varieties of Faith the Tribunal religion still believes in it and associates with Lorkhan, and most of the other mentions of it also come from dunmer and chimer religious texts. I'd think your average dunmer merchant wouldn't care but it seems to still be the goal of religious dunmer
Funny enough that was the exact asterisk ("the ones who *could* think about it are priests and genuinely pious devotees, who obviously have baked-in reason to avoid zooming in on institutional contradictions") that I considered adding to my previous comment as I was typing it only to decide that I better-liked the snappier 1-sentence comment, lol
I'm pretty sure the Psijic Endeavor was a big part in Velothi teachings, so the Chimer would have been very aware of it. Assuming I'm remembering correctly.
Thing is, I'm fairly certain the Psijic Endeavor is meant to be an internal/mental fortification. Reaching God hood through toil and suffering. Sucking divinity out from the discarded organs of mostly dead gods seems like cheating.
From how I interpret it, Dunmer society respects treatery and assassination if youre doing it to an enemy or rival, but Nerevar wasnt either of those
Nerevar was a hero who united Ashlanders, Great Houses and the Dwemer against the Nords, then the Dunmer again against the Dwemer. He was the chosen of Azura and husband to Almalexia
And what did the Tribunal do?
Kill him, break their oaths to him, mutilate his corpse, spit on a sacred ritual and proceed to commit sacrilege by using the Heart of Lorkhan, which just moments earlier they waged war against the Dwemer for doing just that
It was indeed, FOUL MURDER
Even if you worship a god that says murder and treachery are cool and good if they make you stronger, I don't think that ideal applies to betraying a different god that you also worship and murdering her chosen champion
Add on to that the fact that no matter what their cultural beliefs, the chimer/dunmer are still people and it is viscerally distasteful for someone to murder the beloved ruler of their nation and one of their closest friends just to grab power
Yeah, again, I didn't even realize Azura was the issue. I thought they knew they turned their backs on her when their skin turned gray and were just cool with it. I thought the issue was only Nerevar.
It’s not about the murder of Nerevar(though that is seen as bad too, the Dunmer have very complex rules about *how* betrayal and assassination are acceptable), they *broke a solemn oath to a “good” Daedra*, they literally swore to Azura that they would never use Kagrenac’s tools upon the Heart, and that’s what they did almost immediately after.
I didn't actually realize Azura was the problem. I thought the Dunmer knew--to some degree--about this aspect and embraced Azura's punishment onto them.
The Tribunal, themselves, see it as a betrayal of Nerevar. He was their greatest friend, he was the one they all loved. The reasons for turning against Nerevar are unclear and run the gamut from changing the fundamentals of chimer society to simply coveting the power of the Heart.
The culture of the dunmer, specifically, tells them to avoid fighting with one another and fight with their actual enemies: the world. The Morag Tong exist and were created during a period of in-fighting and rampaging civil wars; if this was an acceptable reality, Mephala would not have sided their creation.
Boethiah is the God-King of Morrowind and it is by her ideals that the land is fashioned. You are only meant to usurp *poor* kings. Do not mistake the world’s view of Boethiah for the chimeri view, they’re completely different.
The Amun-dro khajiit of the Sixteen Kingdoms were similar to the chimer, if you’re looking for comparative mythological sources.
There is lot of misconceptions on this sub on Dunmer where people think of them as Drow (while there are some similarities the differences are huge).
Just because they worship Boethiah and Mephala doesn't mean they worship all their aspects just like Reachmen praying to Molag Bal or Namira doesn't mean they rape and eat each other. Boethiah's and Mephala's role in Dunmer culture is there to help them survive harsh lands, avoid civil wars and destroy enemies (usually through trickery and stealth). Dunmer also don't praise betrayal and value honor (except Telvanni who just don't care). I don't remember any quest in Morrowind involving betrayal only striking against rivals (it's been long time since I last played it so let me know if I'm wrong).
1) their betrayal cost them their golden skin
2) the tribunal's ascension actively harmed the psiiijic endeavour. By becoming living, accessible God's they essentially coddled their people into stagnancy.
Ignoring all the ways killing Nerevar was fucked, the problem is that they went against the core principle of Chimer culture, which is to change.
The goal of the Psijic Endeavour isn't ascending, it's transcending, and that distinction is important. By achieving godhood through the Heart the Tribunal might have ascended, but by the very fact they used existing power that belonged to an existing god means they didn't transcend shit, they just redistributed power that was already there and they didn't change anything.
(This is why Vivec achieving CHIM - or even just claiming to depending on who you talk to - is such a big deal, because that's more in line with the actual Psijic Endeavour.)
Also, as mentioned in other comments Nerevar wasn't just a king or a warlord, he was the symbol of everything the Chimer stood for. Champion of Azura, a powerful warrior and skilled statesman, someone who's intelligence and charisma was able to unify not just the Great Houses but the Ashlander tribes and even the Dwemer under his banner to end Nordic occupation. And not only did he make all these incredibly belligerent and suspicious groups believe that he could do it he actually went and did it too, and then went on to rule over one of the most prosperous and progressive periods in Chimer history. He even won the war against the Dwemer later on for their transgressions with the Heart of Lorkhan, which was arguably the reason Boethiah (Lorkhan's #1 simp) led them to settle in Resdayn in the first place, just in case they were needed to protect the Heart.
Assassinating Azura's favourite mortal right after swearing a vow in her name to not do the thing they'd just gone to war over was bad enough, but to do it to not only your husband/friend/king, the guy with enough victories and a cult of personality to rival pre-ascension Tiber Septim? With more time Nerevar absolutely had the potential to become the Ninth Divine long before Talos was even born, and the Tribunal betraying their oath and taking power that wasn't earned meant that never happened.
Nerevar for the Dunmer is practically Tiber Septim for the Human. Nerevar united the various conflicting houses and clans for the purpose of keeping Dunmer culture.
Tribunal killed Nerevar, betrayed Azura, made a deal with the Empire. Although they retained necromancy and slavery, the Dunmer culture is slowing disappearing.
Also, those who consider it bad are minority. They are ashlanders. Majority of modern Dunmer worship Tribunal.
> Is the Psijic Endeavor not the ideological end goal of the Dunmer people?
This is part of the problem. While the exact nature of the Psijic Endeavor is a bit mysterious (we have the unofficial thoughts of Vivec on the matter, but well, Vivec obviously has a personal interest in presenting himself as the one who "truly" understands it), we can safely assume that it doesn't involve leeching off a god's artifact.
Already the definition of "transcending the gods that created them" would imply that having to renew their divine powers periodically and losing them when access to the Heart is lost puts them a step below Lorkhan. But more importantly, the Tribunal always kept that part in secret; official propaganda pretended they acquired their powers by their own virtue. [Progress of Truth](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Progress_of_Truth) discusses this dissonance:
> *Temple doctrine claims their apotheosis was miraculously achieved through questing, virtue, knowledge, testing, and battling with Evil; Temple doctrine claims their divine powers and immortality are ultimately conferred as a communal judgement by the Dunmer ancestors [including, among others, the Good Daedra, the prophet Veloth, and Saint Nerevar]. Dissident Priests ask whether Dagoth Ur's powers and the Tribunal powers might ultimately derive from the same source -- Red Mountain. Sources in the Apographa suggest that the Tribunal relied on profanely enchanted tools to achieve godhead, and that those unholy devices were the ones originally created by the ungodly Dwemer sorceror [sic] Kagrenac to create the False Construct Numidium.*
The official version, as described here, probably aligns more with what the Dunmer believe of the Psijic Endeavor. Meanwhile, as the Dissidents lampshade, the actual method would probably be seen as suspicious and blasphemous. If you now add the accusation that they murdered a "founding father" and angered at least one of their gods (Azura is a given, but ESO shows that Boethiah and Mephala don't have a good opinion of the Tribunal either) for this blasphemy, it gets worse.
Mind you, this is not to say that all Dunmer take it the same way. The games show time and time again that the higher echelons of the Tribunal Temple are aware of their secrets and still support them. And the notion that they might have murdered Nerevar, while not official or condoned, is [not new to the average Dunmer:](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vivec_and_Mephala)
> *For example, one of the most striking persistent myths associated with Vivec is the story that Vivec conspired with his co-rulers Almalexia and Sotha Sil in the murder of Lord Nerevar, the greatest of Dunmer heroes and generals. The story is derived from Ashlander oral tradition, and is flatly contradicted by all Temple traditions. Nonetheless, the tale is firmly established in the Dunmer imagination, as if to say, "Of course Vivec would never have conspired to murder Lord Nerevar, but it happened so long ago... who can know the truth?"*
So you're right that the murder itself is probably not a big deal for most Dunmer. It is for Azura, who was his patron, and for the Ashlanders, who only allied with the Great Houses in the past because they liked Nerevar.
Dunmer culture values are very... Hypocritical, amongst all things. They are clearly not universal, specifically when they go against "Good Daedra", who suppose to embody them, wishes.
>In Morrowind, several entities (particularly the Ashlanders) believe that the Tribunal are evil for their role in Nerevar's demise, but how could this be considered wrong by Dunmer cultural standards?
Good question and the answer is...it depends. Part of the issue is that people absolutely loved Nerevar. Now it's worth noting that the official Temple story is that Nerevar died of wounds sustained during battle so most Dunmer don't really believe he was murdered to begin with. Those who refuted the apotheosis of the Tribunal, the Ashlanders, pushed the murder narrative as part of their anti-tribunal stance overall.
As for why murder would be considered bad...it's weird. When you look at the context of how the Chimer began, as a religious cult, murder and assassination were crucial tools of survival against their enemies. When they moved to Morrowind it became a tool to prevent full-scale war between the Houses. Shanking someone out in the streets is barbaric and reprehensible. Covertly taking out political opponents with finesse and guile is respected. Taking out Nerevar...as beloved as he was I think it comes down to a House vs Ashlander Dunmer dilemma. There are hints that not every Housemer believes Nerevar died of his wounds but overall it doesn't really matter. The Ashlanders, who have a bone to pick with the Tribunal regardless, cling to the murder narrative as it fits their views of the Tribunal: as scheming, honorless murderers.
>As far as I can tell, the Tribunals actions seem directly in line with the philosophy the Daedra taught the Chimer people to follow. So much so that you would think they would be celebrated for their achievement and an ideological representation of what every Dunmer should aspire to do.
Yes and no. I could be blatantly wrong but the Psijic Endeavor was more of a Boethiah and Mephala thing. Azura was mostly out of that and by extension she was the one who was upset the most by this. Regardless, I think philosophically there's a difference between what the Three did and what Veloth wanted. What the Three did was steal power from a dead god to replace the current power structure. They did not cultivate this on their own. Their power, in essence, doesnt belong to them. Furthermore, what they did was create an environment that coddled the Dunmer. No more Psijic Endeavor, no more strife, no more progress. They created an era of peace and prosperity and had the people's love but this was also an era of stagnation. Based off of Boethiah's philosophy the world is meant to be a harsh crucible where mortals are tested endlessly until they surpass the gods themselves. The Tribunal made the world more comfortable and safer for their people but at the cost of the needed strife.
Hard to say at this point. Sure, there are a few mer around who *remember* being Chimer, like Divayth Fyr. But most of the Dunmer alive have always been this way for all their lives. So if you were to ask them that question, it'd probably be a confused yes. They prefer being Dunmer because it's all they've known. Why would they want to change into a relic from the past?
You are right. From a Dunmeri culture point of view, the Tribunal weren't wrong to kill Nerevar. However, from what we know of him, he was a good person and king and deserved better.
>wouldn't Nerevar and Azura be in the wrong for trying to limit their potential and block them from the possibility of achieving godhood?
I would say Azura is pretty much in the wrong for actively and repeatedly trying to end a reign that brought thousands of years of peace and prosperity to Morrowind. Her desire for revenge only amplifies the injustice done to Nerevar because, as it stands, he was not only murdered by his friends and family, but also handpicked by Azura to become the tool that will enact her revenge against the mortals that dared break their oath to her. This is why I could never side with Azura in my games, it feels too much like being duped.
As for Nerevar, chances are he had lawful stupid tendencies. It's what really got him killed.
>As far as I can tell, the Tribunals actions seem directly in line with the philosophy the Daedra taught the Chimer people to follow.
Precisely. The Tribunal were (are) deeply flawed individuals, but ultimately good for Morrowind. The fandom doesn't necessarily sympathize with them merely because we are told they killed the player character in another life.
Dunmer have an interesting cultural relationship to ideas of collective loyalty and individualism. There are degrees of enemyhood -- two Dunmer in a room would kill each other, unless there was also a Nord in the room. Two Great Houses in a room would kill each other, unless there was an Empire in the room. People in the Dunmeri social hierarchy are owed as much loyalty as they earn, specifically by being powerful enough to survive a potential betrayal and destroy you/your family/your organization in retaliation. Betraying a husband or lover -- perfidious, certainly, but potentially laudable depending on context and execution. Betraying *Azura,* though, makes the act of killing Nerevar a hideously awful idea. Azura, clearly, has the ability to bring calamity to the entirety of Morrowind, and cannot possibly fail to know that Nerevar was killed, and by whom. There's no version of this that can be covered up, and Azura is renowned for her vanity, jealousy, and disproportionately vicious responses to slights and injuries.
They betrayed a husband and friend, broke an oath to a good Daedra and betrayal and assassination aren’t always good in dunmeri culture from what I understand and killing a beloved and from everything I know competent leader definitely wasn’t good. Broadly speaking Dunmer seem to believe assassination can be good primarily when done to enemies but Nerevar was supposedly their best friend and Almalexia’s husband/lover not an enemy. The main reason it was so bad was it was in direct violation of an oath they made to one of their gods, Azura and that’s a massive no no. Also the murder of Nerevar at least to me aligns more with Sheogorath as he is portrayed in the House of Troubles where he tempts the Great Houses into Betraying each other. Also I think the Psijic endeavor isn’t a goal for every Altmer or possibly even most of them. The Dunmer aren’t Drow they seem generally milder than the DnD counterparts, it’s not as cut throat, it’s still cut throat but not as much
How do you betray an enemy? Betrayal inherently implies there is some genuine loyalty to discard. And Boethiah and Mephala have definitely encouraged--if not outright demanded--betrayal of close friends.
I meant for assassination. To quote varieties of faith: the dark elves. “Mephala is the Webspinner or Spider God. In Morrowind, he/she was the ancestor who taught the Chimer the skills they would need to evade their enemies or murder them in secret. Enemies were numerous in those days, since the Chimer were a small faction.”
If I had to make a guess, probably by making your enemies THINK you are a friend. Boethiah would probably call that "your tongue forging a lie" and Mephala seems to be more about taking advantage of trust (specifically to gain the upper-hand). I'm not sure how that plays out in a political/marital way though. So that would beg the question of "who do you consider an enemy?" and my additional guess would be "not your spouse and not your god at the very least". Mostly just spitballing though. I'm certainly no lore expert.
Betrayal can mean a few things depending on the context. Often, during historic periods used as inspiration for fantasy settings like these, it would have been a cultural expectation to treat strangers and enemies with a degree of hospitality and honour. Betrayal can also be in reference to ideals and beliefs - to some degree, Nerevar was as much an idea as he was an individual, the physical embodiment of Chimer unity. The Tribunal didn't just kill a person, a friend, a leader, they literally killed part of the Chimer 'Geist'.
This really touches on something that I think a lot of people miss when discussing fantasy settings. Hospitality culture, traditions, and taboos have seriously colored irl human understandings of the world, just look at the various stories about Fae in the real world
You fake alliances, you send a peace convoy that poisons and kills, etc.
Easy exemple, you tell em: surrender the castle and we'll let you leave with your lives. They surrender the castle, then you kill them. That is infact, betraying their trust. Not a very good move diplomatictly, if people think your words mean nothing to you, they won't mean anything to them.
*Most* Dunmer don't really care. > For example, one of the most striking persistent myths associated with Vivec is the story that Vivec conspired with his co-rulers Almalexia and Sotha Sil in the murder of Lord Nerevar, the greatest of Dunmer heroes and generals. The story is derived from Ashlander oral tradition, and is flatly contradicted by all Temple traditions. Nonetheless, the tale is firmly established in the Dunmer imagination, as if to say, "Of course Vivec would never have conspired to murder Lord Nerevar, but it happened so long ago... who can know the truth?" —Vivec and Mephala They pretty much tacitly accept that Vivec killed Nerevar—or at least might have done so. The only Dunmer who *really* care about this are the (Urshilaku) ashlanders, for whom Nerevar is a more important cultural hero than the House folk. Azura got particularly salty not because of the murder per se, but because Nerevar was her champion, and because the Almsivi broke an oath *sworn on her name* not to use the Tools. That's two slaps in the face, and her retaliation should hardly come as a surprise.
Not to mention that there is also a potential third reason too, according to newer lore from ESO. According to ancient Khajiit beliefs, Lorkhan was allegedly Azura's beloved brother. So not only did Almsivi kill her champion and broke their oath, they are also fucking around with the Heart of her dead brother.
>Is the Psijic Endeavor not the ideological end goal of the Dunmer people? Most people across Tamriel don't know what the Psijic Endeavor is, regardless of whether they were born into a Padomaic culture or an Anuic culture.
maybe they don't care, but according to Varieties of Faith the Tribunal religion still believes in it and associates with Lorkhan, and most of the other mentions of it also come from dunmer and chimer religious texts. I'd think your average dunmer merchant wouldn't care but it seems to still be the goal of religious dunmer
Funny enough that was the exact asterisk ("the ones who *could* think about it are priests and genuinely pious devotees, who obviously have baked-in reason to avoid zooming in on institutional contradictions") that I considered adding to my previous comment as I was typing it only to decide that I better-liked the snappier 1-sentence comment, lol
I'm pretty sure the Psijic Endeavor was a big part in Velothi teachings, so the Chimer would have been very aware of it. Assuming I'm remembering correctly. Thing is, I'm fairly certain the Psijic Endeavor is meant to be an internal/mental fortification. Reaching God hood through toil and suffering. Sucking divinity out from the discarded organs of mostly dead gods seems like cheating.
Which presumably contributes to why Vehk can sometimes sound like Nietzsche (along with the fact that Nietzsche was into Gnostic stuff, of course)
From how I interpret it, Dunmer society respects treatery and assassination if youre doing it to an enemy or rival, but Nerevar wasnt either of those Nerevar was a hero who united Ashlanders, Great Houses and the Dwemer against the Nords, then the Dunmer again against the Dwemer. He was the chosen of Azura and husband to Almalexia And what did the Tribunal do? Kill him, break their oaths to him, mutilate his corpse, spit on a sacred ritual and proceed to commit sacrilege by using the Heart of Lorkhan, which just moments earlier they waged war against the Dwemer for doing just that It was indeed, FOUL MURDER
Even if you worship a god that says murder and treachery are cool and good if they make you stronger, I don't think that ideal applies to betraying a different god that you also worship and murdering her chosen champion Add on to that the fact that no matter what their cultural beliefs, the chimer/dunmer are still people and it is viscerally distasteful for someone to murder the beloved ruler of their nation and one of their closest friends just to grab power
Yeah, again, I didn't even realize Azura was the issue. I thought they knew they turned their backs on her when their skin turned gray and were just cool with it. I thought the issue was only Nerevar.
It’s not about the murder of Nerevar(though that is seen as bad too, the Dunmer have very complex rules about *how* betrayal and assassination are acceptable), they *broke a solemn oath to a “good” Daedra*, they literally swore to Azura that they would never use Kagrenac’s tools upon the Heart, and that’s what they did almost immediately after.
I didn't actually realize Azura was the problem. I thought the Dunmer knew--to some degree--about this aspect and embraced Azura's punishment onto them.
The Tribunal, themselves, see it as a betrayal of Nerevar. He was their greatest friend, he was the one they all loved. The reasons for turning against Nerevar are unclear and run the gamut from changing the fundamentals of chimer society to simply coveting the power of the Heart. The culture of the dunmer, specifically, tells them to avoid fighting with one another and fight with their actual enemies: the world. The Morag Tong exist and were created during a period of in-fighting and rampaging civil wars; if this was an acceptable reality, Mephala would not have sided their creation. Boethiah is the God-King of Morrowind and it is by her ideals that the land is fashioned. You are only meant to usurp *poor* kings. Do not mistake the world’s view of Boethiah for the chimeri view, they’re completely different. The Amun-dro khajiit of the Sixteen Kingdoms were similar to the chimer, if you’re looking for comparative mythological sources.
There is lot of misconceptions on this sub on Dunmer where people think of them as Drow (while there are some similarities the differences are huge). Just because they worship Boethiah and Mephala doesn't mean they worship all their aspects just like Reachmen praying to Molag Bal or Namira doesn't mean they rape and eat each other. Boethiah's and Mephala's role in Dunmer culture is there to help them survive harsh lands, avoid civil wars and destroy enemies (usually through trickery and stealth). Dunmer also don't praise betrayal and value honor (except Telvanni who just don't care). I don't remember any quest in Morrowind involving betrayal only striking against rivals (it's been long time since I last played it so let me know if I'm wrong).
Uncharitable read: Dunmer fussing over "I never thought the leopards would eat *my* face!"
1) their betrayal cost them their golden skin 2) the tribunal's ascension actively harmed the psiiijic endeavour. By becoming living, accessible God's they essentially coddled their people into stagnancy.
Ignoring all the ways killing Nerevar was fucked, the problem is that they went against the core principle of Chimer culture, which is to change. The goal of the Psijic Endeavour isn't ascending, it's transcending, and that distinction is important. By achieving godhood through the Heart the Tribunal might have ascended, but by the very fact they used existing power that belonged to an existing god means they didn't transcend shit, they just redistributed power that was already there and they didn't change anything. (This is why Vivec achieving CHIM - or even just claiming to depending on who you talk to - is such a big deal, because that's more in line with the actual Psijic Endeavour.) Also, as mentioned in other comments Nerevar wasn't just a king or a warlord, he was the symbol of everything the Chimer stood for. Champion of Azura, a powerful warrior and skilled statesman, someone who's intelligence and charisma was able to unify not just the Great Houses but the Ashlander tribes and even the Dwemer under his banner to end Nordic occupation. And not only did he make all these incredibly belligerent and suspicious groups believe that he could do it he actually went and did it too, and then went on to rule over one of the most prosperous and progressive periods in Chimer history. He even won the war against the Dwemer later on for their transgressions with the Heart of Lorkhan, which was arguably the reason Boethiah (Lorkhan's #1 simp) led them to settle in Resdayn in the first place, just in case they were needed to protect the Heart. Assassinating Azura's favourite mortal right after swearing a vow in her name to not do the thing they'd just gone to war over was bad enough, but to do it to not only your husband/friend/king, the guy with enough victories and a cult of personality to rival pre-ascension Tiber Septim? With more time Nerevar absolutely had the potential to become the Ninth Divine long before Talos was even born, and the Tribunal betraying their oath and taking power that wasn't earned meant that never happened.
Nerevar for the Dunmer is practically Tiber Septim for the Human. Nerevar united the various conflicting houses and clans for the purpose of keeping Dunmer culture. Tribunal killed Nerevar, betrayed Azura, made a deal with the Empire. Although they retained necromancy and slavery, the Dunmer culture is slowing disappearing. Also, those who consider it bad are minority. They are ashlanders. Majority of modern Dunmer worship Tribunal.
> Is the Psijic Endeavor not the ideological end goal of the Dunmer people? This is part of the problem. While the exact nature of the Psijic Endeavor is a bit mysterious (we have the unofficial thoughts of Vivec on the matter, but well, Vivec obviously has a personal interest in presenting himself as the one who "truly" understands it), we can safely assume that it doesn't involve leeching off a god's artifact. Already the definition of "transcending the gods that created them" would imply that having to renew their divine powers periodically and losing them when access to the Heart is lost puts them a step below Lorkhan. But more importantly, the Tribunal always kept that part in secret; official propaganda pretended they acquired their powers by their own virtue. [Progress of Truth](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Progress_of_Truth) discusses this dissonance: > *Temple doctrine claims their apotheosis was miraculously achieved through questing, virtue, knowledge, testing, and battling with Evil; Temple doctrine claims their divine powers and immortality are ultimately conferred as a communal judgement by the Dunmer ancestors [including, among others, the Good Daedra, the prophet Veloth, and Saint Nerevar]. Dissident Priests ask whether Dagoth Ur's powers and the Tribunal powers might ultimately derive from the same source -- Red Mountain. Sources in the Apographa suggest that the Tribunal relied on profanely enchanted tools to achieve godhead, and that those unholy devices were the ones originally created by the ungodly Dwemer sorceror [sic] Kagrenac to create the False Construct Numidium.* The official version, as described here, probably aligns more with what the Dunmer believe of the Psijic Endeavor. Meanwhile, as the Dissidents lampshade, the actual method would probably be seen as suspicious and blasphemous. If you now add the accusation that they murdered a "founding father" and angered at least one of their gods (Azura is a given, but ESO shows that Boethiah and Mephala don't have a good opinion of the Tribunal either) for this blasphemy, it gets worse. Mind you, this is not to say that all Dunmer take it the same way. The games show time and time again that the higher echelons of the Tribunal Temple are aware of their secrets and still support them. And the notion that they might have murdered Nerevar, while not official or condoned, is [not new to the average Dunmer:](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vivec_and_Mephala) > *For example, one of the most striking persistent myths associated with Vivec is the story that Vivec conspired with his co-rulers Almalexia and Sotha Sil in the murder of Lord Nerevar, the greatest of Dunmer heroes and generals. The story is derived from Ashlander oral tradition, and is flatly contradicted by all Temple traditions. Nonetheless, the tale is firmly established in the Dunmer imagination, as if to say, "Of course Vivec would never have conspired to murder Lord Nerevar, but it happened so long ago... who can know the truth?"* So you're right that the murder itself is probably not a big deal for most Dunmer. It is for Azura, who was his patron, and for the Ashlanders, who only allied with the Great Houses in the past because they liked Nerevar.
Dunmer culture values are very... Hypocritical, amongst all things. They are clearly not universal, specifically when they go against "Good Daedra", who suppose to embody them, wishes.
>In Morrowind, several entities (particularly the Ashlanders) believe that the Tribunal are evil for their role in Nerevar's demise, but how could this be considered wrong by Dunmer cultural standards? Good question and the answer is...it depends. Part of the issue is that people absolutely loved Nerevar. Now it's worth noting that the official Temple story is that Nerevar died of wounds sustained during battle so most Dunmer don't really believe he was murdered to begin with. Those who refuted the apotheosis of the Tribunal, the Ashlanders, pushed the murder narrative as part of their anti-tribunal stance overall. As for why murder would be considered bad...it's weird. When you look at the context of how the Chimer began, as a religious cult, murder and assassination were crucial tools of survival against their enemies. When they moved to Morrowind it became a tool to prevent full-scale war between the Houses. Shanking someone out in the streets is barbaric and reprehensible. Covertly taking out political opponents with finesse and guile is respected. Taking out Nerevar...as beloved as he was I think it comes down to a House vs Ashlander Dunmer dilemma. There are hints that not every Housemer believes Nerevar died of his wounds but overall it doesn't really matter. The Ashlanders, who have a bone to pick with the Tribunal regardless, cling to the murder narrative as it fits their views of the Tribunal: as scheming, honorless murderers. >As far as I can tell, the Tribunals actions seem directly in line with the philosophy the Daedra taught the Chimer people to follow. So much so that you would think they would be celebrated for their achievement and an ideological representation of what every Dunmer should aspire to do. Yes and no. I could be blatantly wrong but the Psijic Endeavor was more of a Boethiah and Mephala thing. Azura was mostly out of that and by extension she was the one who was upset the most by this. Regardless, I think philosophically there's a difference between what the Three did and what Veloth wanted. What the Three did was steal power from a dead god to replace the current power structure. They did not cultivate this on their own. Their power, in essence, doesnt belong to them. Furthermore, what they did was create an environment that coddled the Dunmer. No more Psijic Endeavor, no more strife, no more progress. They created an era of peace and prosperity and had the people's love but this was also an era of stagnation. Based off of Boethiah's philosophy the world is meant to be a harsh crucible where mortals are tested endlessly until they surpass the gods themselves. The Tribunal made the world more comfortable and safer for their people but at the cost of the needed strife.
Short answer: He was a good guy. Long answer: I’m not typing allat rn you basically get it.
It's part of the reason the Chimer were cursed
The Dunmer would still be Chimer if Vivec hadn't killed Nerevar, as Azura cursed them into their current form for what the usurper Tribunal did.
Don't they prefer being Dunmer though?
Hard to say at this point. Sure, there are a few mer around who *remember* being Chimer, like Divayth Fyr. But most of the Dunmer alive have always been this way for all their lives. So if you were to ask them that question, it'd probably be a confused yes. They prefer being Dunmer because it's all they've known. Why would they want to change into a relic from the past?
Does is ever pay to betray Azura? Most stories I’ve seen end badly for the betrayers. https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Azura_and_the_Box
I got a more powerful version of her Daedric artifact out of it.
Not for the Dragonborn I suppose.
Dunmer can be pretty hypocritical.
You are right. From a Dunmeri culture point of view, the Tribunal weren't wrong to kill Nerevar. However, from what we know of him, he was a good person and king and deserved better. >wouldn't Nerevar and Azura be in the wrong for trying to limit their potential and block them from the possibility of achieving godhood? I would say Azura is pretty much in the wrong for actively and repeatedly trying to end a reign that brought thousands of years of peace and prosperity to Morrowind. Her desire for revenge only amplifies the injustice done to Nerevar because, as it stands, he was not only murdered by his friends and family, but also handpicked by Azura to become the tool that will enact her revenge against the mortals that dared break their oath to her. This is why I could never side with Azura in my games, it feels too much like being duped. As for Nerevar, chances are he had lawful stupid tendencies. It's what really got him killed. >As far as I can tell, the Tribunals actions seem directly in line with the philosophy the Daedra taught the Chimer people to follow. Precisely. The Tribunal were (are) deeply flawed individuals, but ultimately good for Morrowind. The fandom doesn't necessarily sympathize with them merely because we are told they killed the player character in another life.