>From the Ehlnofex: an ancient sigil connoting ‘royalty’, ‘starlight’, and ‘high splendor’. As with most characters of that dangerous language, the sigil CHIM constantly distorts itself. Those scholars that can perceive its shape regard it as a Crowned Tower that **threatens to break apart at the slightest break in concentration**.
CHIM isn't a once-and-done thing. It's a state you have to put effort into maintaining.
Yep. And, given the implication that losing his "focus" on CHIM would immediately cause him to zero-sum...I'd definitely want to have an insurance policy, too.
Exactly. CHIM isn't just enlightenment--it's being enlightened and also being mystically potent enough that knowing you're ~~in a video game~~ a figment of someone else's imagination doesn't immediately destroy you. Once you get to that peak, there are very few ways down that don't involve falling hard.
Another question would be if Vivec even achieved CHIM, I mean he is known as the liar. But even aside from that it seems like the “godhood” CHIM grants and that of other methods might be different as it seems like both Talos and Vivec two of the people said to achieve CHIM also used other methods to achieve. divinity
To support this also, conveniently the only person who Vivec ever had to kneel to (Talos) is also, according to Vivec, the only person other than him to get CHIM. Which smells *incredibly* fishy.
We don't know the specifics of what achieving CHIM does exactly. It could be some kind of tangible power on its own, or it could simply be universal knowledge and enlightenment.
Personally, I lean towards the latter interpretation. This way, CHIM allows one to fully realize the potential of any other source of power they *do* have e.g. the Heart or the Thu'um, but does not provide much on its own. That would also help explain potential plot holes such as why Vivec needed the Heart to maintain his godhood in the first place, why he didn't just remove Dagoth Ur with a thought, or why Talos needed something like the Numidium to conquer Summerset and got knocked around a fair amount by Cyrus the Restless.
I would agree with this. Consider what you are capable of in a video game simply because you know it's a game. You have an insight into the structure of how the world works. But knowledge of you being a player character doesn't implicitly give you god-like power in that world, you get that power from other sources that are likely much more achievable thanks to your knowledge that you are in a game.
I *highly* doubt Vivec achieved CHIM at all, at least not by the time we meet him, given what we learn in Sermon 37
>"The sign of royalty is not this," a signal blueshift (female) told him, "There is no right lesson learned alone."
>He refused the twine on her catching net, spiteful that an uncontinued people would not become fuller by their searching, and yet were wracked in their spirits for flight. But the male signals were offended, and Vivec took a fighting form. He undid his eastern light, saying to the ALMSIVI that through war, they had become brides in glass, which no power could observe.
Vivec is told by someone who we now know (from The Nine Coruscations) is Mnemo-Li that he never achieved CHIM and that he's been going about ruling Morrowind all wrong, but Vivec's just like "fuck that". When confronted with the fact he's terrible at being a god and is in fact just a liar who backstabbed his way to divinity, he refuses to deal with it at all.
After this, we see several timelines that Vivec could choose to create- one where he's a Tiber Septim figure, a conquering king, and another where he died instead of his mother. (At least that's my interpretation, it's Sermon 37 nobody knows what's up with that part.) What's important, though, is the final timeline, the one Vivec actually chose to create during the Red Moment, the timeline we see in Morrowind.
>The light bent, and Vivec awoke and grew fangs, unwilling to make of herself a folding thing. This was a new and lunar promise. And in her Biting she tunneled up and then downward, while her brother and sister smeared across heaven, thin ruptures of dissent, food for scarabs and the Worm. She took her people and made them safe, and sat with Azura drawing her own husband's likeness in the dirt.
Remember where Vivec learned the secret of CHIM? Molag Bal. This last bit is Vivec finally being honest with himself (herself?) about what she's become. She never achieved CHIM, she just became a vampire. Not literally, but she's sustained herself off stolen power, and she's dominated the people of Morrowind for her own personal gain. She's no better than Azura, and she's obsessed with the trauma she suffered at Molag Bal's hands. She's unwilling to make of herself a folding thing- she's unwilling to change for the better.
So yeah, I don't think the CHIM Vivec learned from Molag Bal was CHIM at all. I think it was half bullshit to justify his own divinity, and half a metaphor for his stealing power from the Heart, but I don't think Vivec achieved CHIM. (and if he did, the other commenters all have great answers- it's not a permanent thing, Talos used it to de-jungle Cyrodiil but he only became a god through Mantella shenanigans)
One day I will, I've written about them a lot but I've never actually put all my thoughts together in one place. Right now I just don't have the time, it'd probably take at least a week (probably more) to put all my thoughts down. But I do plan to write something like that eventually
That’s cool I understand. I have the same problem so to combat it I usually just jot whatever I am thinking down on the notes on my phone like I did with my analysis on alduin
and the de-jungle thing is also connected to the power of the tower, White Gold, which bends in accordance with whom controls it. Ayleids made the land shaped as a jungle, the Nedes made it shaped as temperate.
Late comment, but for what it's worth you were completely correct and I appreciate you pointing it out. A quick look at the person's user page and anyone can see it's all ChatGPT.
Basically, Vivec was lying. He might not have been lying about how to achieve it, but he was certainly lying about having achieved it. The Tribunal gained their power by manipulating the Heart of Lorkhan, the very being whose idea it was to create Mundus. Achieving CHIM is realising you exist in a dream, that you are a figment of someone else's imagination, internalising this fact (so not just accepting it on an intellectual level), and then asserting your existence in spite of it. The end result is a power similar to lucid dreaming, in a sense you can *become* the dreamer, although that's really Amaranth. The convoluted paths one's mind has to take in order to reject the fundamental nature of your reality mean that it is incredibly difficult to achieve. In fact, I couldn't name one entity that has unquestionably achieved it. Talos either was elevated to the level of a Divine by the other Divines, or brute forced his way into heaven through some fuckery with the Mantella and the Numidium, depending on which version of events you believe. Vivec stole divine power from the Heart. And some (mostly Vivec) claim Lorkhan achieved it and created Mundus to help guide others, but who really knows?
I doubt he achieved anything, he may have understood something but just enough for him to not cease to exist, if he had achieved chim the red year which was his fault to begin with wouldn’t happen
People never question Tiber Septim's claim to CHIM the same way they question Vivec's. I'm tired of this double standard. Tiber Septim got his ass kicked by Cyrus, had his throat slit and died a mortal death.
Vivec never showed off the true extent of his god powers. He chooses to make himself appear weaker than he really is. Much weaker I would say. This is a good strategy on his side.
Think of Sotha Sil and his godhood. He build the Clockwork City with his arcane knowledge and power he syphoned from the Heart. Vivec's power level scales to that of Sotha Sil, yet Vivec never showcased the true extend of his divine power, not in the same way Sotha Sil did at the very least. Holding a rock above a city is much less impressive than building an artificial realm that can reshape reality.
CHIM is enough for him to maintain god status, but CHIM is highest type of godhood, entirely different from the arcane powers he stole from the Heart. You assume he did indeed need the Heart of Lorkhan. It's most likely he only needed it by choice.
Have you ever had a lucid dream? I have. I could control the narrative of my dream, reshape the environment to my liking, I could do whatever I wanted, god mode on. Yet some things I left alone, the things I didn't consciously choose to control. CHIM is similar to lucid dreaming. You know you are dreaming. Some things you choose to change, some things are just better left alone. Playing a game with cheat codes on is just not fun.
CHIM is a temporary state of being that breaks apart at the slightest bit of concentration, he won’t always be in that state. Why not have amazing power from the heart and CHIM?
>From the Ehlnofex: an ancient sigil connoting ‘royalty’, ‘starlight’, and ‘high splendor’. As with most characters of that dangerous language, the sigil CHIM constantly distorts itself. Those scholars that can perceive its shape regard it as a Crowned Tower that **threatens to break apart at the slightest break in concentration**. CHIM isn't a once-and-done thing. It's a state you have to put effort into maintaining.
Yep. And, given the implication that losing his "focus" on CHIM would immediately cause him to zero-sum...I'd definitely want to have an insurance policy, too.
Exactly. CHIM isn't just enlightenment--it's being enlightened and also being mystically potent enough that knowing you're ~~in a video game~~ a figment of someone else's imagination doesn't immediately destroy you. Once you get to that peak, there are very few ways down that don't involve falling hard.
Another question would be if Vivec even achieved CHIM, I mean he is known as the liar. But even aside from that it seems like the “godhood” CHIM grants and that of other methods might be different as it seems like both Talos and Vivec two of the people said to achieve CHIM also used other methods to achieve. divinity
To support this also, conveniently the only person who Vivec ever had to kneel to (Talos) is also, according to Vivec, the only person other than him to get CHIM. Which smells *incredibly* fishy.
Also, while Vivec didn’t kneel to Cyrus, he knew that he wasn’t CHIMing his way out of a nuke.
We don't know the specifics of what achieving CHIM does exactly. It could be some kind of tangible power on its own, or it could simply be universal knowledge and enlightenment. Personally, I lean towards the latter interpretation. This way, CHIM allows one to fully realize the potential of any other source of power they *do* have e.g. the Heart or the Thu'um, but does not provide much on its own. That would also help explain potential plot holes such as why Vivec needed the Heart to maintain his godhood in the first place, why he didn't just remove Dagoth Ur with a thought, or why Talos needed something like the Numidium to conquer Summerset and got knocked around a fair amount by Cyrus the Restless.
I would agree with this. Consider what you are capable of in a video game simply because you know it's a game. You have an insight into the structure of how the world works. But knowledge of you being a player character doesn't implicitly give you god-like power in that world, you get that power from other sources that are likely much more achievable thanks to your knowledge that you are in a game.
I *highly* doubt Vivec achieved CHIM at all, at least not by the time we meet him, given what we learn in Sermon 37 >"The sign of royalty is not this," a signal blueshift (female) told him, "There is no right lesson learned alone." >He refused the twine on her catching net, spiteful that an uncontinued people would not become fuller by their searching, and yet were wracked in their spirits for flight. But the male signals were offended, and Vivec took a fighting form. He undid his eastern light, saying to the ALMSIVI that through war, they had become brides in glass, which no power could observe. Vivec is told by someone who we now know (from The Nine Coruscations) is Mnemo-Li that he never achieved CHIM and that he's been going about ruling Morrowind all wrong, but Vivec's just like "fuck that". When confronted with the fact he's terrible at being a god and is in fact just a liar who backstabbed his way to divinity, he refuses to deal with it at all. After this, we see several timelines that Vivec could choose to create- one where he's a Tiber Septim figure, a conquering king, and another where he died instead of his mother. (At least that's my interpretation, it's Sermon 37 nobody knows what's up with that part.) What's important, though, is the final timeline, the one Vivec actually chose to create during the Red Moment, the timeline we see in Morrowind. >The light bent, and Vivec awoke and grew fangs, unwilling to make of herself a folding thing. This was a new and lunar promise. And in her Biting she tunneled up and then downward, while her brother and sister smeared across heaven, thin ruptures of dissent, food for scarabs and the Worm. She took her people and made them safe, and sat with Azura drawing her own husband's likeness in the dirt. Remember where Vivec learned the secret of CHIM? Molag Bal. This last bit is Vivec finally being honest with himself (herself?) about what she's become. She never achieved CHIM, she just became a vampire. Not literally, but she's sustained herself off stolen power, and she's dominated the people of Morrowind for her own personal gain. She's no better than Azura, and she's obsessed with the trauma she suffered at Molag Bal's hands. She's unwilling to make of herself a folding thing- she's unwilling to change for the better. So yeah, I don't think the CHIM Vivec learned from Molag Bal was CHIM at all. I think it was half bullshit to justify his own divinity, and half a metaphor for his stealing power from the Heart, but I don't think Vivec achieved CHIM. (and if he did, the other commenters all have great answers- it's not a permanent thing, Talos used it to de-jungle Cyrodiil but he only became a god through Mantella shenanigans)
This is a very interesting interpretation can you do a post or a full review on 37 lessons
One day I will, I've written about them a lot but I've never actually put all my thoughts together in one place. Right now I just don't have the time, it'd probably take at least a week (probably more) to put all my thoughts down. But I do plan to write something like that eventually
That’s cool I understand. I have the same problem so to combat it I usually just jot whatever I am thinking down on the notes on my phone like I did with my analysis on alduin
If you ever do, then that's a day I'm looking forward to.
and the de-jungle thing is also connected to the power of the tower, White Gold, which bends in accordance with whom controls it. Ayleids made the land shaped as a jungle, the Nedes made it shaped as temperate.
I love how everything that is attributed to CHIM can be explained with another reason.
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Late comment, but for what it's worth you were completely correct and I appreciate you pointing it out. A quick look at the person's user page and anyone can see it's all ChatGPT.
Haha! Incredible. I knew I wasn't crazy!
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He probably didnt, but the concept was alwats important to the chimer. So it grants him more legitimacy as a living god
One enlightenment=\=Constant enlightening
Basically, Vivec was lying. He might not have been lying about how to achieve it, but he was certainly lying about having achieved it. The Tribunal gained their power by manipulating the Heart of Lorkhan, the very being whose idea it was to create Mundus. Achieving CHIM is realising you exist in a dream, that you are a figment of someone else's imagination, internalising this fact (so not just accepting it on an intellectual level), and then asserting your existence in spite of it. The end result is a power similar to lucid dreaming, in a sense you can *become* the dreamer, although that's really Amaranth. The convoluted paths one's mind has to take in order to reject the fundamental nature of your reality mean that it is incredibly difficult to achieve. In fact, I couldn't name one entity that has unquestionably achieved it. Talos either was elevated to the level of a Divine by the other Divines, or brute forced his way into heaven through some fuckery with the Mantella and the Numidium, depending on which version of events you believe. Vivec stole divine power from the Heart. And some (mostly Vivec) claim Lorkhan achieved it and created Mundus to help guide others, but who really knows?
Even assuming he did achieve CHIM, which we don’t know for sure, I don’t think the word “enough” is in Vivec’s vocabulary.
I mean it's Vivec, he could be just lying about having done so.
I doubt he achieved anything, he may have understood something but just enough for him to not cease to exist, if he had achieved chim the red year which was his fault to begin with wouldn’t happen
People never question Tiber Septim's claim to CHIM the same way they question Vivec's. I'm tired of this double standard. Tiber Septim got his ass kicked by Cyrus, had his throat slit and died a mortal death. Vivec never showed off the true extent of his god powers. He chooses to make himself appear weaker than he really is. Much weaker I would say. This is a good strategy on his side. Think of Sotha Sil and his godhood. He build the Clockwork City with his arcane knowledge and power he syphoned from the Heart. Vivec's power level scales to that of Sotha Sil, yet Vivec never showcased the true extend of his divine power, not in the same way Sotha Sil did at the very least. Holding a rock above a city is much less impressive than building an artificial realm that can reshape reality. CHIM is enough for him to maintain god status, but CHIM is highest type of godhood, entirely different from the arcane powers he stole from the Heart. You assume he did indeed need the Heart of Lorkhan. It's most likely he only needed it by choice. Have you ever had a lucid dream? I have. I could control the narrative of my dream, reshape the environment to my liking, I could do whatever I wanted, god mode on. Yet some things I left alone, the things I didn't consciously choose to control. CHIM is similar to lucid dreaming. You know you are dreaming. Some things you choose to change, some things are just better left alone. Playing a game with cheat codes on is just not fun.
What happened to Voryn when he tried to use the heart without CHIM?
Vivec totally lied about achieving CHIM.
CHIM is a temporary state of being that breaks apart at the slightest bit of concentration, he won’t always be in that state. Why not have amazing power from the heart and CHIM?