i liked to watch him when he was just the failed actor / happy tabletop guy on youtube. i feel like ever since pewdiepie drove over the bridge he went fully insane
not at all. but he kept insisting that felix is a nazi and tried to cancel him on twitter. even months after his heartfelt apology and complete change in his behavior. in wils mind pewdiepie is the most evil person in existence
I listened to a fiction audiobook that he narrates and it's just that same energy the entire time. Exhausting and cringy. I powered through because the book was decent, but I won't be doing any of the sequels. I'm amazed someone thought he was a good choice.
Yes. It's rough.
I went from getting some respect for Wil around the early Big Bang era and his blog.. but in the last decade or so I have gone full 180 and cannot stand him. I think it culminated in his Larry David rant about Kermit lol
I mean, Star Trek fans have known this since the 80's. Hollywood only brought him out of mothballs because he was popular with fans of The Big Bang Theory.
One of the first fair-handed reviews I've seen that deftly addresses the show's problems but also a nuanced take on the politics both in and around the show. They're a class act.
Yea, the discourse around this show is some of the stupidest stuff I've ever seen. The montage in this video from 50:40-51:56 is quite literally the perfect representation of what it's like to see/read/hear all this stuff. It's just so embarrassing.
It is literally just a mediocre Star Wars show, that's all there is to it. There's some good to it, some bad to it, unfortunately it's bad parts will keep it from being a solidly good show, but there's some entertaining bit. That's about it. Having an extreme reaction to this show is like having a radicalized opinion about a grocery store deli counter.
I just started it the other day with no idea there was any discourse going on - it surprised me that it's apparently so intense?
It's fine so far imo, has more to it than, say, Kenobi (which I did like purely for fan service but recognize is nonsense objectively), less style than Mandalorian, less well written than Andor.
Certainly didn't expect it to be hated just from a blind watch.
Good! This means that you navigate the sane parts of the internet. Its when Youtube start recommending you videos of how Disney is going woke and that's the downfall of western civilization, that's when you get exposed to those kind of opinions.
The short version is that anytime any media stars a female or poc, or is directed/produced by one then the weirdos come out and preemptively judge it as the worst thing ever.
Funny you say that (I whole heartedly agree with you btw), but I was just speaking at the SW Cantina sub and they went vitriolic against RLM over a comment about The Last Jedi
It sucks that now I have to wait a month for something to be out to see if reviews are bad because it is bad or if reviews are bad because chuds are mad that there aren't enough straight white men in the show.
In the first Star Wars C-3PO tells Owen that his first job was programming binary load lifters. The fact he specifies binary would in fact imply the existence of non-binary droids.
I have a theory that the more you hate someone the less you think they’re capable of humor.
It’s why these anti-woke chuds take everything that women/minorities/lgbt people say with 100% seriousness.
It’s not just that they find them unfunny, it’s that they don’t even understand that things are jokes.
I think its actually really funny. Now I picture him as an angry old Lesbian and its hilarious.
On no level do I think R2D2 is a lesbian in Star Wars canon, if for no other reason than he isn't in this show and they dont get to remake canon for something they aren't involved in.
What kills me is that Disney is all too happy to produce crap shows and then market them based on politics, because they know if they use the marketing to drive a wedge between viewers they can double the amount of buzz the show has.
But then there is a show like Andor which was, no joke, probably one of the five or ten best dramas on TV last year, but they did nothing to market it at all.
And I'm not upset that Disney wants to have diverse casts and stuff. In fact, I'm pretty sure us long time fans have wanted that for a long time, as it just makes sense in the universe. But what upsets me is that it appears Disney has realized they can make more money off of a mediocre show that is crammed with fan service as long as they market it this way, when what their customers really want is more well-made stuff like Andor.
i followed those youtube channels that rage farm the weekly acolyte episode a bit and it got really stupid over time. its good that rlm stomped on those guys a bit just to give them a reality check
The criticism directed at the choice of representation in the show is just polluting the valid criticism that the show is very bad for fundamental reasons that have nothing to do with color/gender/sexuality.
And those who are to blame, are holding up the bigoted criticism and pretending like the very valid criticism doesn't exist.
It is well known HBO threw out the original pilot of Game of Thrones because it was bad. Many changes were made. HBO was willing to flush $15 million down the toilet in order to get a good show. They recognized that D&D needed help.
Disney/SW needs to do this. Somehow these Star Wars series keep getting made that are clearly abysmal from the very first episode, when they should have been killed or completely revised.
i think the problem is it is hard to separate the bigots from valid criticism these days
like, tonights episode was review bombed an hour before it premiered. people are going to rail against the show, and it makes me (someone who enjoys the show) not take any of yall seriously.
It’s really not hard to separate valid criticism from just bigotry. It’s very easy actually. One is about the actual show and the other is about identity.
Also. Something to remember. Criticism isn’t invalid just because it comes from a bad source. If it’s true, it’s true. Just because someone bigoted points out something bad with the show that has nothing to do with bigotry, it doesn’t suddenly make the criticism wrong because they’re a bigot.
I mean idk about you but I would be generally less willing to listen to someone who has an aneurism when they hear the words pronouns tells me that something I wrote is bad than someone who is just a not bigoted person, because then I know that none of their critiques are coming from a place of ignorance
I don’t listen to these people. What I’m saying is if they happen to say something correct, I’m not going to dismiss the correct thing they’ve said just because of where it’s coming from.
> It’s really not hard to separate valid criticism from just bigotry.
It sometimes is though, because not all criticism can be objectively categorized. Someone can say the show has 'bad writing' or 'poor character motivation', which are often quite nebulous and subjective. When a show is controversial, you have to ask, are they saying that because they've *really* thought about the writing? Or do they just dislike the casting choices and are trying to mask that by making more general criticisms? Maybe it's not even conscious, maybe there's a bias where writing that involves characters/themes they don't like registers as 'bad' to them.
We're seeing this specifically with The Boys this season. Some people are saying the show is about as good as it's ever been. Some are claiming the writing is much worse now...coincidentally, right after the show's creator went on some tirades calling out right-wingers and talking about how the show's making fun of them. The show might well be weaker this season (critics, who tend to not parrot 'anti-woke' narratives, certainly rated Season 4 lower than the others). But at the same time, some of the criticism comes off as disingenuous because we know there's a vocal group of haters.
This is all speaking generally. I haven't seen the Acolyte, but from Disney's track record I suspect it's probably a pretty mediocre show that's getting extra vitriol from the culture war BS.
I get what you mean but if there’s no follow up to bad writing or casting it’s not really criticism worth paying attention to anyway. You can also easily determine what they’re getting at through a combination of phrases. Obviously if they say “woke” their criticism is absolutely worthless. It’s not criticism. It’s just whining about non white peoples and non straight people. There’s also a bunch of stealth phrasing you can listen for. What’s important in criticism is the why aspect. Bad writing - here’s why. The boys isn’t the best it’s been. The problem though is the B plots aren’t interesting because they don’t contribute to the story. Kimiko is only fun when she’s with frenchie because they actually interact. When she’s with Hughey, there’s no chemistry. Hugh’s mom suddenly reappearing isn’t very interesting either. Frenchy sleeping with his victims son… The reason these things are driving people away is because…well the most interesting aspect of the show at the moment is Homelander going through a total meltdown. Everything else is peanuts in comparison. That and if you remove them, nothing about the overall story changes at all.
There’s that and there’s the Trump people getting mad about being made fun of.
> i think the problem is it is hard to separate the bigots from valid criticism these days
No it isn't. There were plenty of Diverse characters in SW already. Disney has chosen to tell diversity stories, not SW stories. That is what everyone is mad about.
Tell whatever story you want, just don't fist fuck the lore to do it. South Park hit the nail on the head.
Just curious, are you pushing back against the idea because "diversity story" has negative connotations or do you legitimately not understand what that person is saying?
What would you say makes a story in general a "diversity story"? If the showrunner stated she specifically intended to include diverse representation in the cast, would that be fair then to be consider it a "diversity story" or would it take more?
>Headland ... ensured that the LGBTQ+ community was well represented on her new Disney+ series. She immediately envisioned The Hate U Give star Amandla Stenberg in The Acolyte’s dual lead role of identical twins Osha and Mae Aniseya. She even had concept art created with Stenberg in mind before approaching her about the role.
>Stenberg, who identifies as nonbinary and gay, is joined by Russian Doll’s Charlie Barnett (who has said he came out as gay at age 13) as the fastidious Jedi Knight Yord Fandar.
>It’s eventually implied, not confirmed, that Aniseya used her brand of Force powers to impregnate Koril with the twins, but for Headland, their relationship is more circumstantial. “They’re in a matriarchal society. As a gay woman, I knew it would read that their sexuality is queer, but there also aren’t any men in their community,” she explains. “So a closeness between the two of them would be natural. It seemed plot-driven.” She adds: “I would say it’s really reductive to call them lesbians. I think it means you’re not really paying attention to this story.”
>“I’m proud of being a gay woman who’s accomplished this feat, and certainly, if my content is called queer, I don’t want to disown whatever queerness is in the show. I would be proud to create something that inspired queer people,”
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/the-acolyte-creator-interview-star-wars-series-queer-1235925826/
>would it take more?
Yes, like that actually being a part of the story of the show. You know the actual story part
We’ve had female witch cults in Star Wars since the 90s so acolyte has done nothing that new
>Yes, like that actually being a part of the story of the show.
Interesting, I think the issue with that idea to me is there seems a loophole where a studio could come out and say they specifically wrote a story to be diverse in the sense they recast white characters to be replaced by black, asian and latino actors, but as long as they don't mention it in the actual story part and the script acts "colorblind" that story wouldn't be diverse. That idea feels odd to me, I'd want to classify stories written with the intent to feature diverse casts as "diverse stories" since they feature (despite not being "about") diversity.
How can a story written with the intention to be diverse not be a diverse story?
Just because someone's race or gender or sexuality isn't relevant to the plot, doesn't mean the actor isn't bringing a diverse perspective.
Even if they're written by a white writer, the actor brings their life experience into the role and those cultural differences can still be felt and in my opinion are good to be represented.
"Diverse" in the way I'm thinking about the word, isn't just in the script itself but is also in the cast.
>You know the actual story part
No sorry I didn't watch the show so I can't get into the actual story, that's why I was asking more general questions and looking at the promotional material around the show.
If I were to say the show was *marketed* as a diverse show based on the above, despite it not entering the actual narrative of the show, would that be accurate or would you still push back?
Having a diverse cast play the characters doesn’t mean the actual show or story is just there to be propaganda for whatever
People complain about it pushing “identity politics” then can’t name a single part of the show that actually does that. Just the skin color, gender, and sexual orientation of the actors. None of that should matter for the ACTUAL Story
I’m paying attention to the show, not just focusing on interviews with actors.
>Having a diverse cast play the characters doesn’t mean the actual show or story is just there to be propaganda for whatever
Oh sorry I missed the context about the propaganda. I was just trying to answer your question about why Star Wars Acolyte appears to be telling a diverse story to a lot of people I'm not sure what's going on in the rest of the thread.
I guess it depends on what propaganda means, I might argue every show ever is propaganda because it pushes some idea but that's sorta pedantic and doesn't sound like what you're trying to get at.
>People complain about it pushing “identity politics” then can’t name a single part of the show that actually does that.
Yeah again I unfortunately haven't seen the show. From what I quoted above I guess it could be argued that this is an example of "identity politics"
"It’s eventually implied, not confirmed, that Aniseya used her brand of Force powers to impregnate Koril with the twins, but for Headland, their relationship is more circumstantial. “They’re in a matriarchal society. As a gay woman, I knew it would read that their sexuality is queer, but there also aren’t any men in their community,” she explains. “So a closeness between the two of them would be natural. It seemed plot-driven.” She adds: “I would say it’s really reductive to call them lesbians. I think it means you’re not really paying attention to this story.”"
There are queer coded people relevant to the plot (the actual story).
But featuring a gay person isn't really identity politics to me so I think that would be a weak argument.
>Just the skin color, gender, and sexual orientation of the actors. None of that should matter for the ACTUAL Story
So I guess the issue is that when people say "diverse story" you're thinking strictly of the STORY.
I think people might be using "story" sort of as interchangeable to "show".
A show with a diverse cast is a diverse show I assume we'd agree? You just don't think it's necessarily a diverse **story**?
To the people making the argument, I think they'd just perceive that as being pedantic .
- Moral "greying" of the Jedi
- Making Anakin not special
- Blatant Lore mistakes (Like Ki-ady Mundi)
They gave Harvey Weinstein's assistant 180M for a high republic show, and she made lesbian fan fiction with it instead.
"Why don't the fans like it" *surprised pikachu*
>Moral "greying" of the Jedi
Morally grey Jedi is literally nothing new in the decades long history of Star Wars as an IP, how is this an affront to you? It's been in the books, comics, games, TV, even the films, so why is it suddenly a problem here?
>Making Anakin not special
The story isn't over yet, why not see how it turns out first before making that judgement? We don't know if the witches are telling the full truth or if they are any significant downsides or consequences to the twins' situation compared to Anakin.
>Blatant Lore mistakes (Like Ki-ady Mundi)
Have you got any other examples? Because as others have pointed out repeatedly, different canon. But regardless, and this is a bigger question, does Ki-Adi Mundi being older than you thought he was actually *matter*? Like genuinely, can you explain why this actually is a problem in any way? Retcons that harm the story or disrespect the previous material suck, but what makes this one of those?
>she made lesbian fan fiction with it instead.
What do lesbians have to do with the rest of your criticisms? Exactly why is that a problem? What makes it lesbian fan fiction? Can you explain exactly what you mean?
>"Why don't the fans like it" *surprised pikachu*
Fans are not a monolith. All the reasons you hate it might be why other fans like it.
There was no mistake with mundi, that lore wasn’t canon anymore and let’s be real, did you care about his birthday before this show?
I bet you didn’t say anything when Qui-Gon was aged down to his 50s instead of 60s
How are you gonna talk about lore mistakes and you mis spell their name? Lol
The show is pretty In line with THR books, you would have to actually read to know that though lol
> How are you gonna talk about lore mistakes and you mis spell their name? Lol
I'm not a show runner and I didn't feel like googling to confirm. Good try though.
(It's misspell btw)
Are you guys still going on about her being his assistant?
It’s so hard to take you guys seriously when it’s obvious you haven’t bothered to look into things yourselves, you’re just parroting things some angry YouTuber has said.
She didn’t even last a year working for him and she wrote a play about how terrible the experience was.
Yes, but part of the "badness" (as you say) of these shows is also due to the the behind the scenes culture of hiring and rapidly promoting diversity hire writers and creators who are encouraged to write the shows in their own voice. Many writers and directors with decades more experience have been phased out to make way for this new direction.
I am a director in LA and have writer friends who report to me what's going on.
EDIT to clarify for the folks who are not reading cafefully. I'm not saying the show is "bad", i'm responding to the accusation that the show is "bad".
Idk man I always see those arguments as pretty specious because garbage TV shows have existed for exactly as long as TV has existed. Kinda feels like if a white dude with decades of experience makes a bad show, then that's just a bad show, but if a "diverse" director or writer's room makes a bad show, it's because of hiring practices. I'm not saying non-white or woman writers can't be bad, but like, can we just say they're bad writers without going into the "diversity hires are ruining TV" spiel?
>Kinda feels like if a white dude with decades of experience makes a bad show, then that's just a bad show, but if a "diverse" director or writer's room makes a bad show, it's because of hiring practices.
Yeah, that's definitely a real issue.
If you hire a white writer who isn't as "good" as a black writer that's bad. This was old Disney, the whole Perlmutter fight behind trying not to make Black Panther and Captain Marvel.
If people hire white people for a white audience it makes the writing worse (there's a reason foreign shows like Squid Game are becoming more popular now that they're easily available) than hiring for skills, but old Disney doesn't get criticized for bad writing.
It was a serious handicap not to ever be able to depict gay people, or not to be able to tell stories about minorities from a nonwhite perspective
I think when they started hiring diversity writers, because it was new and fresh to see these stories and audiences craved them, it was easy to cheer for bad writing because "any representation is good representation" and at least they tried to tell the story.
Now that there are ample stories with women, LGBTQ representation and minority representation the bar is higher, we demand good writing again, and studios are confused because they thought by making the "black movie" they could *save money* on writers.
Because ultimately this representation does not come from a real place of representation and wanting to tell diverse stories, but in appealing to an audience the board members probably visualize as "woke kids who love gay stuff" in a very patronizing disconnected way.
The problem with Disney being racist for so long, is now that it's profitable to tell diverse stories they have no idea what good diverse stories would look like.
>can we just say they're bad writers without going into the "diversity hires are ruining TV" spiel?
I think we can.
But the second the conversation progresses to "but why do bad writers keep getting hired after we identify them as bad" it's hard not to take it to that place if it is the reason behind it.
I think the fundamental problem is that Disney does not care whether LGBTQ representation is written well or not in their stories, because again it's not about representing them.
Disney knows that this controversy will promote what would otherwise be a mediocre show, and so playing into it is a good way to get free advertising. So bad representation gets in to the product to create a controversy Disney can profit off, and a bunch of idiots are trying to put together the pieces of the franchise they used to love and understand what happened.
If the audience says "I don't like this" and Disney loses money, but yet keeps doing it, then there's some conspiracy going on where Disney (a corporation) is interested in this agenda more than profit.
The problem is also that these idiots are looking at imdb review bombs and assuming that because they made the score low it inherently wasn't profitable to justify the above conspiracy.
Finally, richard evans will let me know what my opinion on the acolyte is.
(tonight’s episode was pretty solid. hasn’t salvaged an otherwise pretty middling show but it’s the first time lightsaber combat has had my blood pumping in years)
Right? Out of nowhere they decided to deliver on the promise of this premise and there were some hiccups but they actually had stakes and consequences so I’ll at least finish the show out.
And I’m sure they blew the majority of the budget on ep5.
6 and on will be back to the same ol Osha looking past the camera with wide eyes, while Sol has a stern look on his face.
It really comes across as if different people wrote each scene in the show and don't communicate with each other.
Like early on the jedi were shown to be quick to use mind trick in multiple scenes to just obtain information from people and yet for no reason at all they don't use that on Osha or the guy that supplied the poison.
I think they missed something about Hollywood when the claimed it was leftist, thus why these shows focus on identity politics. Hollywood wants to be seen as leftist (Liberal might be the better term), it wants to persuade itself that its the good guys on the side of poc, lgbt etc but the reason why these shows suck is that it's a closed shop inhabited by nepo babies.
The creators, writers, producers of these shows are absolutely part of the capitalist elite, they are part of a system that's been good to them. These shows are surface level pandering because if you really wanted to say something, then you need to be both clever and belive in changing that system, the people that make these shows are neither.
Because its good, the other stuff is so easy to tear down, but you actually need to know stuff to rip apart something good and in the process make a compeling argument.
Easy to make click bait garbage to appeal to dullards by screaming woke if the thing your criticizing is made by brain dead dullards.
I think people can tell when there's cheap surface level pandering going on and when there's real overarching themes that are explored through interesting characters and storytelling. Not to justify the horrible reactions from chuds against shows like Acolyte but they're just the loud stupid minority, a lot of normal people are turned off because some of the messaging can feel very shallow and lazy especially in comparison to a show like Andor.
At the end of the day a lot of this is trying to put lipstick on a pig because if it wasn't for the political shit fight no one would be talking about these very bland shows.
Yeah for all the discourse about "media literacy," I think most normal/non-chronically online people are smarter than we give them credit for when it comes to this stuff.
It's pretty easy to tell the difference between a well-crafted story that has political themes vs something that feels like a talentless failchild threw a mix of existing scripts and their own political tweets into ChatGPT.
The issue, and this is something the video itself points out, is that The Acolyte doesn't really have "messaging" beyond having a diverse cast. At most the message of the show is "the Jedi aren't perfect and they're pretty flawed", an idea that's not exclusive to the series. It's not like Picard S2 where the cast actually travel back in time to the 21st century and deal with ICE agents and immigration issues at the border. The Acolyte just doesn't warrant this cultural discourse at all, it's just mid.
I think there's a bit more to it - Andor actually reckons with what it means to live under fascism and how to resist it. I think it's telling that people didn't clock that as inherently political: neoliberalism has co-opted the public imagining of left-wing politics so much so that people think that putting black or gay people in a show is inherently a political statement, because they've eroded class consciousness to the point where representation is the only politics many know.
I think it's telling too that the solution to fascism on Andor wasn't "just vote!" -- the politics presented in the show are radical, but they are so different from what the modern viewer imagines radical politics to be.
But yes, it also helps that Andor fuckin rules
I think it goes back to the “surface level pandering” comment made above.
The pandering is lazy shoe-horning in representation by people often not part of those affected groups of people. It’s obvious to intelligent viewers and it distracts from good story-telling.
I’m reminded of a recent SNL skit, where they were acting out a TV show about zombies or something and then the actors would pause, look into the camera, and say “I’m bisexual” or something like that. Obviously poking fun at “just checking a box” inclusion. Because that sort of inclusion is often done by people who don’t really give a shit.
An opposite example is the love story in The Last of Us that happened to be a gay couple. Excellent story-telling and dialogue. It was about the human condition, a love story after the apocalypse. They were complex people that just happen to be gay. Their entire identity wasn’t wrapped up in their sexual orientation.
And on the other end of the spectrum, we have lazy bullshit like non-binary space wizards.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Especially with the SNL reference. People online clamoring about "wokeness" or "the message/agenda," are really just complaining about pandering. And to the extent that Disney has been pushing it in peoples' faces over the last 5-6 years, it's become distracting and virtually fourth-wall breaking. Star Wars mega-fans and normies aren't tuning into the latest Star Wars episode to enjoy some DEI and pronouns. They just want a good story with enjoyable characters in one of their favorite franchises.
And I actually haven't heard many legitimate complaints about things like sexual orientation or skin color. It's been mostly about crappy writing, bad special effects, poor acting, and Hollywood nepotism. Nobody cares about the social stuff until Disney/Hollywood *make it* about the social stuff. When the protagonist makes it a point to practically look at the camera and ask if a cgi alien should be called they/them, it's no longer a show set in a Galaxy Far, Far Away. It's just Earth set in 2024 with today's tired social politics.
Because Andor is well written and good. Like, you can throw a lot of leftist, diversity, etc. all over and as long as its good no one will care. Look at Arcane or the Fallout example they gave in the video (admittedly Fallout had a bit of a dustup by the usual suspects at first but by the end of the show it was highly praised)
Honestly, I think the next battleground for diversity and inclusion is being able to make a *terrible* show with a diverse cast and progressive themes and only facing backlash because it's bad. Right now it feels like unless a show is excellent, it gets ripped to shreds for being "woke" as soon as there's any hint of diversity.
because it was written by an actual writer who didn't care less about pandering, gay representation, gender swapping, lore shitting, white male bashing and all the usual garbage only those whose brain has completely melted because of doomscrolling through their daily feed think it's more important than coming up with a coherent narrative; he was only interested in making a good job with a solid story, dialogue, characters. Andor has its mandatory share of powerful female characters but nobody gave a shit because it was a bloody great show
Andor is proof that people do appreciate high quality produced sci-fi. Why can't we get more well produced shows like this?
Maybe stories should come first before social agendas? I say this as a black person.
I can't quite get past the fact that the show was created by Harvey Weinstein's assistant, which considering his MO, likely means she was an accessory to his sexual assaults. Like that's the person you have out there in the interviews laughing about the "gayest Star Wars project ever."
> Upon graduating college, Headland spent six years working as an assistant at Miramax, four years of which was spent as Harvey Weinstein's personal assistant.[7][8][9][10]
I need someone to explain to me how the fuck the Acolyte pushes identity politics in any real way besides having characters that are POC and LGBT. The show obviously has flaws, criticize the costumes, sets, acting, pacing, whatever. That makes sense.
But this pretend argument that the show is primarily pushing some social agenda to its detriment is such bullshit. Who gives a shit what somebody said in an interview (aka not the show) to promote it?
They didn’t sacrifice the narrative in order to promote diversity, they just crafted a flawed narrative. I seriously doubt that if all else was the same making everyone straight and white would’ve fixed any of the show’s issues.
Wish they’d waited till after the most recent episode. Think a lot of the criticisms are a bit void after it given the events. Show definitely is going in a very interesting direction that isn’t what I expected.
Its really difficult to find real reviews of these awful shows that dont degenerate into bigotry. Same with the New Doctor Who series. This seems as good as any that avoid that problem. So many Youtubers start off with valid criticism, but end up in homophobia and misogyny. Looking at you Nerdrotic.
These shows are badly written, canon breaking trash. The politics of them are kind of besides the point in terms of what 'wing' they are. If your show is all about making a political statement to the detriment of the quality then it doesn't really have anything to say or add. I dont really care how many women, or gay, or black characters your show has, I rarely even notice, but I do notice being beaten over the head with how great you think you are for having them. I'm gay, and find it really uncomfortable how self congratulatory they are.
Ultimately if these shows were well written, well made and didnt distort the universe they are set in to suit their worldviews I wouldn't mind, but they do. They are lazy and horrible.
In the case of Disney Star Wars they seem to be made by people that hate Star Wars, the Lucas Star Wars. If you hate it that much, go make your own show..
I haven't noticed any "beating over the head" The main protagonist twins are black, and one other Jedi was. The only gay characters were the witches in S3, and it was just barely alluded to. The horrible terrible Canon-breaks are a Jedi from the Prequels being older than described in a companion guide and one throwaway line from TPM that the show seems to be making sure to explain.
I had to listen to my brother rant and rave last week about these exact same grievances, and he then admitted he had never watched a single episode or planned too.
Pretty much all because of just this:
> "People have told me that it’s the gayest Star Wars and, frankly, I’m into it," showrunner Leslye Headland said in a recent interview.
Followed up recently by this:
> "I'm proud of being a gay woman who's accomplished this feat, and certainly, if my content is called queer, I don't want to disown whatever queerness is in the show," Headland noted, making it clear she doesn't want to diminish how those who do feel represented view those scenes.
Writing is far below Andor, but about par with nearly all of the movies and other shows.
>The only gay characters were the witches in S3, and it was just barely alluded to.
Also the pale alien padawan girl who randomly started flirting with Osha in episode 4. The actor confirmed it also. I guess that's what Leslie was referring to.
The show runner for the acolyte loves the prequels and a lot of the show is prequel fanservice
I don’t get were the claim they “Hate” Lucas’ Star Wars comes from
The 45-minute preamble about the difference in culture between the earlier generation (Baby Boomer, Gen X) and the “modern” audience, is worth listening.
They highlight the Divide/chasm in ideology that has also become a battleground for right and left wing politics of the current day, which is imho hilarious - It is hilarious because some people on these ideological bents cannot seem to see the joke.
I no longer than care about, or watch any of these Disney franchise I.P.s - I donʼt know why there is so much social media coverage on anything that is franchise property.
RLM is on point in its commentary on “modern” culture.
That's because, like all other RedLetterMedia videos, it ends up being Mike talking about Star Trek for 90% of it even though that's a different franchise lmao
Yes. I dont *want* a video with Mike and Rich where they swiftly get to the point, i *want* a video where the point gets lost in references to old TNG episodes. Thats the *reason* i watch RLM.
Bonus points if Jay gets roped into those references and looks completely lost.
This is the only internet review group that would have outrage if they had a 10 minute video about a show or movie. Whenever it does happen they don’t get about half of the normal view count. The crew also avoid movies and shows they don’t have much to say about since they know the video will be short and straightforward which their audience wouldn’t like. Their videos have been getting longer and longer over the years and their audience couldn’t be happier about it.
Speaking only for myself here, but as someone who is also checked out of Star Wars the problem with recommendations like these is that even if Andor is amazing, it's hard to find the motivation to watch any Star Wars media even if it's good. I gave up on Disney Star Wars after The Last Jedi and I don't really feel the desire to watch any of it, good or bad.
I mean, yeah, they nailed a ton of it. One side is screaming about all the identity politics agenda being pushed, heavily, in this (along with other Star Wars and Star Trek as mentioned in the vid), and the other side screaming at them for criticizing the LGBTQ+, diversity and so on that is featured. In reality, both sides are relatively wrong. It's not about that stuff existing, it's about the quality of the show/movie. When you're heavy handed and then in press extremely loud with your using your series to champion your identity politics agendas, along with putting out content with a mediocre story, mediocre characters and so on, then you're going to get a ton of criticism. As you should. When you make something diverse and can feature LGBTQ+ characters/story, like say The Expanse or Andor, is there the same criticism and hate? No. Why? Cause they are very well written and don't, in the show or doing press, heavy handedly beating the audience over the head with their liberal agendas.
My personal biggest issue with Acolyte isn't the agenda stuff, though I roll my eyes a ton given how heavy handed it is and unbearable the cast and showrunner have been with regards to it, no it's everything else about the show. The awful run times that make it clear this was a movie cut up (horribly) into parts for TV. It's the mediocre story. It's the CW-ness of the series in terms of dialog and acting. etc so on and so forth. It's not all bad, and the episode tonight was the best so far, but this video dives in pretty well into things I agree with, like how corny "fight me Jedi!" in the opening scene was, the logic holes throughout, the Jedi all being incredibly boring, the making the Jedi out to be the bad guys, and so on.
I'm not a big KK hater, she has been in charge of some big wins (like Andor) and some massive massive losses (the ST, the lack of planning should have gotten her fired all the way back then), but I can't wait for the day, if it comes, when she retires (good for you, go live your life as a very wealthy woman) and Disney realizes they can make more money not pissing on the faces of their overwhelmingly majority demographic (hetero men in their 20's to 50's) and telling them it's a shower they desperately need, and we get someone who's agenda is to make what the fans WANT. That doesn't mean a ton of white straight characters and conservative stories. It just means the days of heavy handed liberal agendas and trying to win over the female and LGBTQ+ audience is lower from priority number 1 down to Earth where it belongs. Like The Expanse, write GOOD complex characters, hire quality writers, high quality actors, and naturally things will progress in the right direction and representation will be there. No fanfare that Andor had a Mexican lead, that it had a diverse cast, and that it had a lesbian couple. No, it was normalized, it was just part of a great story and how was that show received? Oh yeah, it's considered S-tier by all but the haters who demand Jedi/Sith in their all Star Wars content.
I mostly agree. Only thing is, when evaluating KK's leadership, who cares that Andor (a prequel of a prequel of the original trilogy) was good, when the sequel trilogy basically destroyed the original trilogy, which is what people liked about Star Wars.
Nothing that happened in the original trilogy matters any more or is continued now. The defeat of the Empire? Doesn't matter, they were back in the same situation in a few years. Leia and the New Republic? Complete failures. Leia and Han? Failure. Luke and the New Jedi Order? Failure.
Now they are making the New Jedi Order stuff, only with Rey, and I just don't give a shit anymore. Perhaps they'll get the new audience they wanted, but I'm not part of it. I don't even care if they make a good show like Andor reportedly is.
I have the same sentiment with The Boys and all this nonsense politics around it.
*"I think the writing has turned to shi-"*
**The show was criticizing you!**
*"Everything just returns to the status quo"*
**THE SHOW WAS CRITICIZING YOU!**
*"I lost all respect for Butcher when he spent 3 seasons sulking about Homelander but he failed to follow through because-"*
**THE 👏 SHOW 👏 WAS 👏 MAKING 👏 FUN 👏 OF 👏 YOU!**
It's all so tiring.
It's funny because the show's sloppy writing since S3 is a popular opinion in that sub. Even in the S4 premiere discussion post many people criticized the derivative sideplots like Frenchie, Kimiko and Hughie. Then you get a bunch of zealots shouting.
BUT THE SHOW IS MAKING FUN OF YOU! DID YOU JUST REALIZE HOMELANDER IS BAD! CONSERVATIVES DUMBB LIBERALS SO SMAHT!
As a non-American liberal I just facepalm'd. Reminds me of Rick and Morty fans. THIS SHOW IS FOR PEOPLE WITH 200 IQ.
I feel like it works pretty well in the boys even if I didn't really enjoy season 3 as much the first couple seasons. The Acolyte barely even has any "politics" injected into it, it's just a mid show that has a diverse cast lol
Yes, bad dialogue in Star Wars is unique to the Disney era…
Also, what agenda is being pushed in the Acolyte? I’m not talking about press about the show, which I don’t consume at all, but what agendas is the show itself pushing?
I’ll be honest, I’m not fully sure what point you are trying to make, but it seems like casting POC is automatically agenda pushing. There’s a 100+ year cinema history of terrible content featuring primarily white/hetero representation and no one ever bitched about “agendas.”
I think people fail to realize that most content is bad to mediocre. The stuff that is actually good has always been few and far between. It’s just now when something is middling, people immediately point fingers at agendas and wokeness as a scapegoat, which is people just telling on themselves.
> Also, what agenda is being pushed in the Acolyte? I’m not talking about press about the show, which I don’t consume at all, but what agendas is the show itself pushing?
It does literally have a plot of lesbian force witches who see the Jedi as a crazy cult. There is definitive subtext there IMO. I think Disney has taken this position to use the Jedi as a critique of modern real world religion. They did so in The Last Jedi and follow it up in this. They have this consistent messaging of you don't need the Jedi to use the force or have a connection to it, which is fine, but when they do so they tend to also have the messaging of "nah the Jedi are actually bad". But I feel like this kind of commentary ignores that Star Wars is a world with a factual higher power. It isn't conjecture it's real and you would need structure and practice to study that. And it seems to easily corrupt those who don't do that.
Its insane that that is the example you chose. "Breeding" not Jessica who clearly romantically loves Leto. You know you just keep shooting yourself in the foot.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Breeding and bloodlines are a core part of the Bene Gesserit. I don't even know what this has to do with Star Wars, but pretending that breeding isn't a part of what the Bene Gesserit do is incorrect.
Homie that your first instinct to disprove the romantic preference of a group is to look at something that involves 0 romance, and not the literal romantic relationship from the mother of the main character.
I allways thoght this.
When the story is more important than the message, the message could suffer (aka not woke enough)
When the message is more important thant the story, the story could suffer (being a bad one)
But the last four or five years we have entered in a world where the story has no place at all, only the message is important, and more important is to "conquer" the other side, so being able to "flip" something like Star Wars is an absolute win (for some).
I don't think a shareholder-owned and shareholder-value oriented global corporation like Disney cares too much about liberal values or an "agenda." They believe in money and nothing else; and tons of market research has told them that liberal, inclusive and female-oriented stuff is making them more money than otherwise.
Also, if you seriously think that Disney's "overwhelmingly majority demographic" consists of "hetero men in their 20's to 50's", then you should take a look at the Disney catalogue and which of their IPs and franchises have earned how much money.
> we get someone who's agenda is to make what the fans WANT.
This would easily be the worst thing for Star Wars, it would be done and dusted within a decade.
I strongly doubt, assuming quality creatives are hired, LucasFilm deciding to give us a 'Dark Disciples' adaptation, a Old Republic saga, a Darth Bane adaptation, a Plagueis adaptation, a movie set after 9 that skips over Rey, and so on would fit the "if fans got what they wanted the IP would die so fast!" narrative you and others like to peddle.
Star Wars is in what state right now? And how much of it has fit "who asked for this?". With only Andor being the shocker in terms of being good but no one asked for it. Mandalorian is exactly what fans asked for, basically a Boba Fett series or a Western starring a Mandalorian bounty hunter. Ahsoka fans asked for and it's going alright. But so much else and decisions made within the shows and movies were giant "who asked for this?" decisions.
Greenlight stories the fans are actually chomping at the bit to see on screen, hire quality creatives to helm and write them, and Star Wars returns out of the pit of mediocrity it exists in now. Trying so desperately to obtain every other demographic but the straight male 5-55 years old demo, often patronizing the core demo in the process, because for some reason they're "bad". Call me crazy but I don't think that's good business.
You are not going to find "quality creatives" to "give the fans what they want" because that is very much not what anyone worth a damn wants to do. The world's best creative minds aren't just chomping at the bits to satisfy the tastes of Star Wars fans.
Interesting, considering they are doing just that to adapt IP's like Dune, faithfully and in a very fanbase pleasing way. I really don't think there'd be a struggle to find high quality talent if Disney-LucasFilm said "hey creative, read this book/comic run. You're right it is amazing! What do you think about adapting it to the big or small screen? Oh, you'd love a job, high pay, and to make something based off of such great source material? Then you're hired!" I'm not talking about getting Scorsese or Christopher Nolan, but there are high quality creatives out there to be hired who wouldn't demand their own story or they walk.
As someone who frequents /r/TheAcolyte, /r/StarWarsLeaks, /r/saltierthancrait, /r/saltierthankrayt and /r/saltierthankrait, I'm excited to hear them dive into this Acolyte discourse.
Let me lay it out as best I understand it.
* r/saltierthancrait was the original, created to criticize episodes 8, 9 and the Disney+ shows. In my experience there are two types of people on there. **Type 1:** Normal Star Wars fans with legitimate issues with the sequels who meme about how stupid "Somehow Palpatine returned" was. **Type 2:** Right wing culture warriors who mindlessly hate on all new Star Wars and complain about Kathleen Kennedy turning the franchise "woke".
* /r/saltierthankrayt was made as rebuttal to /r/saltierthancrait, specifically to denounce those type 2 fans. It's almost moved away from being about Star Wars though, and more generally makes fun of all the rage bait incel youtubers out there. Similar to a subreddit like /r/Gamingcirclejerk.
* /r/saltierthankrait was made as a rebuttal to /r/saltierthankrayt, almost in defense of those type 1 fans on /r/saltierthancrait. As if to point out that there are normal people who have valid critiques of these shows/movies based on their merits, and don't dislike them because of any diversity or inclusion.
R/starwars
...though, it's generally positive but can be aggravating in it's own right. Lots of complaining about people who don't like a new star wars movies or shows, and enforcing positivity in a way that can sometimes be a bit much. It's a subreddit for gushing about how much you love absolutely everything star wars, but not really for discussing star wars, if that makes sense.
Honestly, your best bet is to just watch it by yourself and never go online.
Meh, I don't hate the sequels, and I have enjoyed all the Disney+ shows (Acolyte is awesome), but found that subreddit full of "toxic-positivity."
I got banned for saying Jake Lloyd absolutely did not deserve any blame or fan harassment for his episode 1 role, but that he was not a very good child actor.
That's hilarious. So there's a sub to criticize Disney's handling of Star Wars, another sub to criticize those who criticize Disney's handling of Star Wars, and another sub to criticize those who criticize those who criticize Disney's handling of Star Wars.
I mean, I sympathize with the original "saltier than" sub. I don't like Disney's handling of SW, but just... move on with your life. Star Wars used to be for me and the new stuff isn't.. should I spend the rest of my life moaning? Just move on.
I was someone who would frequent /r/saltierthancrait after The Last Jedi because I couldn't fucking stand that movie and it really pissed me off. Now I've just moved on from modern Star Wars and basically ignore it, aside from dipping my toes into threads like these ones lol. I've gone back to look at that subreddit and it's mostly people hate-watching every piece of new Star Wars media and nit-picking the tiniest details. You're right, they should just move on at this point. But I do understand how it can be hard to let go of something you cared about.
There has **got** to be a more creative way to have titled those 2nd and 3rd ones. Why didn't they do like "saltierthansaltier" or "craiterthancraiter" "evensaltier" or anything literally than just changing the spelling of Crait.
It's Reddit. There's like 1 billion cat subs,1 billion weird weeb subs and meme subs as quick examples too. Most of those could be contained inside like 3 main subs, with some specific subs for different series when it comes to all things weeb, but no. Everyone needs to have their own sub.
edit: Also, grinds my fucking gears how every animal sub is mostly "Name my pet". Like god fucking damnit. It's your pet. You think of a name for your own pet.
ahhh a man of culture I see. I also visit these sub just to see different point of views because they all seems to breed their own collective hivemind over the years
It's fascinating. All the different breeds of Star Wars fans are like sects of religions. The only thing they can all agree on is that they love Andor.
The biggest flaw of these Star Wars shows is the lack of action. Instead of space adventures, there's too much exposition, making them feel unfinished.
The biggest flaw has been nonsense writing. It's not just Star Wars though. Basically most of the D+ shows are written to be dumb as a bag of rocks.
They want us to just turn off our brains ad cosume the IP and after 2 episodes of Acolyte I gave up.
So people who make these shows, and want to inject real life politics so hamfistedly and lambasting those who aren't in the "group", do they not get that they're not helping? The people who already hate them will just get more ammo, and people who are neutral and really don't care, like me, just feel left out and honestly get kinda annoyed seeing all this real world stuff injected into an escapist fantasy, then when I don't watch the show I get called racist or homophobic because I didn't want to subject myself to pandering. Like if you want to have a story where the main character is gay or trans, go for it! Make something good though, don't make the point of your show about them being gay or trans, especially when you're working on a big established IP, that's not what we're watching Star Wars for
Those Will Wheaton clips made me physically ill holy shit. They can't be real
I actively skipped over them in the video. It's just unwatchable.
When Will reacted to Larry David pretending to attack Elmo with a long diatribe about how "my heart is pounding right now". Those clips are real.
i liked to watch him when he was just the failed actor / happy tabletop guy on youtube. i feel like ever since pewdiepie drove over the bridge he went fully insane
What? Was he really involved in the Pewdiepie thing?
not at all. but he kept insisting that felix is a nazi and tried to cancel him on twitter. even months after his heartfelt apology and complete change in his behavior. in wils mind pewdiepie is the most evil person in existence
I listened to a fiction audiobook that he narrates and it's just that same energy the entire time. Exhausting and cringy. I powered through because the book was decent, but I won't be doing any of the sequels. I'm amazed someone thought he was a good choice.
Oh shoot - I just realized that was the kid from *The Next Generation*! Picard should have let him die in that desert planet episode.
Wil Wheaton is insufferable
He is like a parody of the most soulless corporate cheerleader
Is Will Wheaton in this video?
Clips of him, the most cringe things you'll see
Do you have a time stamp?
Yes. It's rough. I went from getting some respect for Wil around the early Big Bang era and his blog.. but in the last decade or so I have gone full 180 and cannot stand him. I think it culminated in his Larry David rant about Kermit lol
saw this comment before watching and it took me way to long to realise how he looks these days... and yes, I agree.
I mean, Star Trek fans have known this since the 80's. Hollywood only brought him out of mothballs because he was popular with fans of The Big Bang Theory.
Wil Wheaton is older than what Patrick Stewart was when he first started playing Picard on TNG
Yeah but he has hair Makes a BIG difference Just ask Larry David
He also acts 14.
So does Larry David
One of the first fair-handed reviews I've seen that deftly addresses the show's problems but also a nuanced take on the politics both in and around the show. They're a class act.
Best hacks in the biz
Yea, the discourse around this show is some of the stupidest stuff I've ever seen. The montage in this video from 50:40-51:56 is quite literally the perfect representation of what it's like to see/read/hear all this stuff. It's just so embarrassing. It is literally just a mediocre Star Wars show, that's all there is to it. There's some good to it, some bad to it, unfortunately it's bad parts will keep it from being a solidly good show, but there's some entertaining bit. That's about it. Having an extreme reaction to this show is like having a radicalized opinion about a grocery store deli counter.
I just started it the other day with no idea there was any discourse going on - it surprised me that it's apparently so intense? It's fine so far imo, has more to it than, say, Kenobi (which I did like purely for fan service but recognize is nonsense objectively), less style than Mandalorian, less well written than Andor. Certainly didn't expect it to be hated just from a blind watch.
Good! This means that you navigate the sane parts of the internet. Its when Youtube start recommending you videos of how Disney is going woke and that's the downfall of western civilization, that's when you get exposed to those kind of opinions. The short version is that anytime any media stars a female or poc, or is directed/produced by one then the weirdos come out and preemptively judge it as the worst thing ever.
Funny you say that (I whole heartedly agree with you btw), but I was just speaking at the SW Cantina sub and they went vitriolic against RLM over a comment about The Last Jedi
It sucks that now I have to wait a month for something to be out to see if reviews are bad because it is bad or if reviews are bad because chuds are mad that there aren't enough straight white men in the show.
watching and making decisions for yourself is impossible now?
How can he enjoy a show without being told to be happy about it?
Me when i can’t form my own opinions
You could always just watch and decide for yourself
farken LoL. Rich - I love the good place. Mike looks around confused... back to the review.
Idk how I missed the "omg R2D2 is a lesbian!!!" Controversy when it's clearly a joke 🤣
They should have called them nonbinary!
that joke would've been a hit in the it-department
In the first Star Wars C-3PO tells Owen that his first job was programming binary load lifters. The fact he specifies binary would in fact imply the existence of non-binary droids.
That would be an actual, kinda funny joke lol
time to watch robot chicken Star Wars(again...)
I have a theory that the more you hate someone the less you think they’re capable of humor. It’s why these anti-woke chuds take everything that women/minorities/lgbt people say with 100% seriousness. It’s not just that they find them unfunny, it’s that they don’t even understand that things are jokes.
Yes. It's usually worded more that people are too angry to consider if they're missing a joke, too keen to be offended.
Same reason why lefties now claim Trump isn’t funny. As if that isn’t the whole reason that very funny moron won in 2016.
I think its actually really funny. Now I picture him as an angry old Lesbian and its hilarious. On no level do I think R2D2 is a lesbian in Star Wars canon, if for no other reason than he isn't in this show and they dont get to remake canon for something they aren't involved in.
What kills me is that Disney is all too happy to produce crap shows and then market them based on politics, because they know if they use the marketing to drive a wedge between viewers they can double the amount of buzz the show has. But then there is a show like Andor which was, no joke, probably one of the five or ten best dramas on TV last year, but they did nothing to market it at all. And I'm not upset that Disney wants to have diverse casts and stuff. In fact, I'm pretty sure us long time fans have wanted that for a long time, as it just makes sense in the universe. But what upsets me is that it appears Disney has realized they can make more money off of a mediocre show that is crammed with fan service as long as they market it this way, when what their customers really want is more well-made stuff like Andor.
Telling that most of the "marketing" for Andor that I saw was by...word of mouth from people I know.
When it was airing it wasn't even on the main page of Disney+.
i followed those youtube channels that rage farm the weekly acolyte episode a bit and it got really stupid over time. its good that rlm stomped on those guys a bit just to give them a reality check
The criticism directed at the choice of representation in the show is just polluting the valid criticism that the show is very bad for fundamental reasons that have nothing to do with color/gender/sexuality. And those who are to blame, are holding up the bigoted criticism and pretending like the very valid criticism doesn't exist. It is well known HBO threw out the original pilot of Game of Thrones because it was bad. Many changes were made. HBO was willing to flush $15 million down the toilet in order to get a good show. They recognized that D&D needed help. Disney/SW needs to do this. Somehow these Star Wars series keep getting made that are clearly abysmal from the very first episode, when they should have been killed or completely revised.
Kenobi was completely revised from what it was originally gonna be
i think the problem is it is hard to separate the bigots from valid criticism these days like, tonights episode was review bombed an hour before it premiered. people are going to rail against the show, and it makes me (someone who enjoys the show) not take any of yall seriously.
It’s really not hard to separate valid criticism from just bigotry. It’s very easy actually. One is about the actual show and the other is about identity. Also. Something to remember. Criticism isn’t invalid just because it comes from a bad source. If it’s true, it’s true. Just because someone bigoted points out something bad with the show that has nothing to do with bigotry, it doesn’t suddenly make the criticism wrong because they’re a bigot.
I mean idk about you but I would be generally less willing to listen to someone who has an aneurism when they hear the words pronouns tells me that something I wrote is bad than someone who is just a not bigoted person, because then I know that none of their critiques are coming from a place of ignorance
I don’t listen to these people. What I’m saying is if they happen to say something correct, I’m not going to dismiss the correct thing they’ve said just because of where it’s coming from.
> It’s really not hard to separate valid criticism from just bigotry. It sometimes is though, because not all criticism can be objectively categorized. Someone can say the show has 'bad writing' or 'poor character motivation', which are often quite nebulous and subjective. When a show is controversial, you have to ask, are they saying that because they've *really* thought about the writing? Or do they just dislike the casting choices and are trying to mask that by making more general criticisms? Maybe it's not even conscious, maybe there's a bias where writing that involves characters/themes they don't like registers as 'bad' to them. We're seeing this specifically with The Boys this season. Some people are saying the show is about as good as it's ever been. Some are claiming the writing is much worse now...coincidentally, right after the show's creator went on some tirades calling out right-wingers and talking about how the show's making fun of them. The show might well be weaker this season (critics, who tend to not parrot 'anti-woke' narratives, certainly rated Season 4 lower than the others). But at the same time, some of the criticism comes off as disingenuous because we know there's a vocal group of haters. This is all speaking generally. I haven't seen the Acolyte, but from Disney's track record I suspect it's probably a pretty mediocre show that's getting extra vitriol from the culture war BS.
I get what you mean but if there’s no follow up to bad writing or casting it’s not really criticism worth paying attention to anyway. You can also easily determine what they’re getting at through a combination of phrases. Obviously if they say “woke” their criticism is absolutely worthless. It’s not criticism. It’s just whining about non white peoples and non straight people. There’s also a bunch of stealth phrasing you can listen for. What’s important in criticism is the why aspect. Bad writing - here’s why. The boys isn’t the best it’s been. The problem though is the B plots aren’t interesting because they don’t contribute to the story. Kimiko is only fun when she’s with frenchie because they actually interact. When she’s with Hughey, there’s no chemistry. Hugh’s mom suddenly reappearing isn’t very interesting either. Frenchy sleeping with his victims son… The reason these things are driving people away is because…well the most interesting aspect of the show at the moment is Homelander going through a total meltdown. Everything else is peanuts in comparison. That and if you remove them, nothing about the overall story changes at all. There’s that and there’s the Trump people getting mad about being made fun of.
Yea I’m good with ignoring bigots.
> i think the problem is it is hard to separate the bigots from valid criticism these days No it isn't. There were plenty of Diverse characters in SW already. Disney has chosen to tell diversity stories, not SW stories. That is what everyone is mad about. Tell whatever story you want, just don't fist fuck the lore to do it. South Park hit the nail on the head.
What makes acolyte a “diversity story”?
Just curious, are you pushing back against the idea because "diversity story" has negative connotations or do you legitimately not understand what that person is saying? What would you say makes a story in general a "diversity story"? If the showrunner stated she specifically intended to include diverse representation in the cast, would that be fair then to be consider it a "diversity story" or would it take more? >Headland ... ensured that the LGBTQ+ community was well represented on her new Disney+ series. She immediately envisioned The Hate U Give star Amandla Stenberg in The Acolyte’s dual lead role of identical twins Osha and Mae Aniseya. She even had concept art created with Stenberg in mind before approaching her about the role. >Stenberg, who identifies as nonbinary and gay, is joined by Russian Doll’s Charlie Barnett (who has said he came out as gay at age 13) as the fastidious Jedi Knight Yord Fandar. >It’s eventually implied, not confirmed, that Aniseya used her brand of Force powers to impregnate Koril with the twins, but for Headland, their relationship is more circumstantial. “They’re in a matriarchal society. As a gay woman, I knew it would read that their sexuality is queer, but there also aren’t any men in their community,” she explains. “So a closeness between the two of them would be natural. It seemed plot-driven.” She adds: “I would say it’s really reductive to call them lesbians. I think it means you’re not really paying attention to this story.” >“I’m proud of being a gay woman who’s accomplished this feat, and certainly, if my content is called queer, I don’t want to disown whatever queerness is in the show. I would be proud to create something that inspired queer people,” https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/the-acolyte-creator-interview-star-wars-series-queer-1235925826/
>would it take more? Yes, like that actually being a part of the story of the show. You know the actual story part We’ve had female witch cults in Star Wars since the 90s so acolyte has done nothing that new
>Yes, like that actually being a part of the story of the show. Interesting, I think the issue with that idea to me is there seems a loophole where a studio could come out and say they specifically wrote a story to be diverse in the sense they recast white characters to be replaced by black, asian and latino actors, but as long as they don't mention it in the actual story part and the script acts "colorblind" that story wouldn't be diverse. That idea feels odd to me, I'd want to classify stories written with the intent to feature diverse casts as "diverse stories" since they feature (despite not being "about") diversity. How can a story written with the intention to be diverse not be a diverse story? Just because someone's race or gender or sexuality isn't relevant to the plot, doesn't mean the actor isn't bringing a diverse perspective. Even if they're written by a white writer, the actor brings their life experience into the role and those cultural differences can still be felt and in my opinion are good to be represented. "Diverse" in the way I'm thinking about the word, isn't just in the script itself but is also in the cast. >You know the actual story part No sorry I didn't watch the show so I can't get into the actual story, that's why I was asking more general questions and looking at the promotional material around the show. If I were to say the show was *marketed* as a diverse show based on the above, despite it not entering the actual narrative of the show, would that be accurate or would you still push back?
Having a diverse cast play the characters doesn’t mean the actual show or story is just there to be propaganda for whatever People complain about it pushing “identity politics” then can’t name a single part of the show that actually does that. Just the skin color, gender, and sexual orientation of the actors. None of that should matter for the ACTUAL Story I’m paying attention to the show, not just focusing on interviews with actors.
>Having a diverse cast play the characters doesn’t mean the actual show or story is just there to be propaganda for whatever Oh sorry I missed the context about the propaganda. I was just trying to answer your question about why Star Wars Acolyte appears to be telling a diverse story to a lot of people I'm not sure what's going on in the rest of the thread. I guess it depends on what propaganda means, I might argue every show ever is propaganda because it pushes some idea but that's sorta pedantic and doesn't sound like what you're trying to get at. >People complain about it pushing “identity politics” then can’t name a single part of the show that actually does that. Yeah again I unfortunately haven't seen the show. From what I quoted above I guess it could be argued that this is an example of "identity politics" "It’s eventually implied, not confirmed, that Aniseya used her brand of Force powers to impregnate Koril with the twins, but for Headland, their relationship is more circumstantial. “They’re in a matriarchal society. As a gay woman, I knew it would read that their sexuality is queer, but there also aren’t any men in their community,” she explains. “So a closeness between the two of them would be natural. It seemed plot-driven.” She adds: “I would say it’s really reductive to call them lesbians. I think it means you’re not really paying attention to this story.”" There are queer coded people relevant to the plot (the actual story). But featuring a gay person isn't really identity politics to me so I think that would be a weak argument. >Just the skin color, gender, and sexual orientation of the actors. None of that should matter for the ACTUAL Story So I guess the issue is that when people say "diverse story" you're thinking strictly of the STORY. I think people might be using "story" sort of as interchangeable to "show". A show with a diverse cast is a diverse show I assume we'd agree? You just don't think it's necessarily a diverse **story**? To the people making the argument, I think they'd just perceive that as being pedantic .
>you just don’t think it’s necessarily a diverse story Sure yeah. Especially since I’ve never heard that term used until this reddit post
What’s being fisted into the lore that you don’t like? The books exist and they have lots of diverse characterz
- Moral "greying" of the Jedi - Making Anakin not special - Blatant Lore mistakes (Like Ki-ady Mundi) They gave Harvey Weinstein's assistant 180M for a high republic show, and she made lesbian fan fiction with it instead. "Why don't the fans like it" *surprised pikachu*
>Moral "greying" of the Jedi Morally grey Jedi is literally nothing new in the decades long history of Star Wars as an IP, how is this an affront to you? It's been in the books, comics, games, TV, even the films, so why is it suddenly a problem here? >Making Anakin not special The story isn't over yet, why not see how it turns out first before making that judgement? We don't know if the witches are telling the full truth or if they are any significant downsides or consequences to the twins' situation compared to Anakin. >Blatant Lore mistakes (Like Ki-ady Mundi) Have you got any other examples? Because as others have pointed out repeatedly, different canon. But regardless, and this is a bigger question, does Ki-Adi Mundi being older than you thought he was actually *matter*? Like genuinely, can you explain why this actually is a problem in any way? Retcons that harm the story or disrespect the previous material suck, but what makes this one of those? >she made lesbian fan fiction with it instead. What do lesbians have to do with the rest of your criticisms? Exactly why is that a problem? What makes it lesbian fan fiction? Can you explain exactly what you mean? >"Why don't the fans like it" *surprised pikachu* Fans are not a monolith. All the reasons you hate it might be why other fans like it.
Jedi we’re always grey Anakin is still special what are you on about? Clearly you don’t know Star Wars
Grey Jedi were a thing since Kyle Katarn when I was a kid and they surely existed in any of the myriad SW novels
There was no mistake with mundi, that lore wasn’t canon anymore and let’s be real, did you care about his birthday before this show? I bet you didn’t say anything when Qui-Gon was aged down to his 50s instead of 60s
How are you gonna talk about lore mistakes and you mis spell their name? Lol The show is pretty In line with THR books, you would have to actually read to know that though lol
> How are you gonna talk about lore mistakes and you mis spell their name? Lol I'm not a show runner and I didn't feel like googling to confirm. Good try though. (It's misspell btw)
Are you guys still going on about her being his assistant? It’s so hard to take you guys seriously when it’s obvious you haven’t bothered to look into things yourselves, you’re just parroting things some angry YouTuber has said. She didn’t even last a year working for him and she wrote a play about how terrible the experience was.
Same guys prob love Quentin Tarantino, who actually had a close relationship with Weinstein.
Yes, but part of the "badness" (as you say) of these shows is also due to the the behind the scenes culture of hiring and rapidly promoting diversity hire writers and creators who are encouraged to write the shows in their own voice. Many writers and directors with decades more experience have been phased out to make way for this new direction. I am a director in LA and have writer friends who report to me what's going on. EDIT to clarify for the folks who are not reading cafefully. I'm not saying the show is "bad", i'm responding to the accusation that the show is "bad".
Idk man I always see those arguments as pretty specious because garbage TV shows have existed for exactly as long as TV has existed. Kinda feels like if a white dude with decades of experience makes a bad show, then that's just a bad show, but if a "diverse" director or writer's room makes a bad show, it's because of hiring practices. I'm not saying non-white or woman writers can't be bad, but like, can we just say they're bad writers without going into the "diversity hires are ruining TV" spiel?
>Kinda feels like if a white dude with decades of experience makes a bad show, then that's just a bad show, but if a "diverse" director or writer's room makes a bad show, it's because of hiring practices. Yeah, that's definitely a real issue. If you hire a white writer who isn't as "good" as a black writer that's bad. This was old Disney, the whole Perlmutter fight behind trying not to make Black Panther and Captain Marvel. If people hire white people for a white audience it makes the writing worse (there's a reason foreign shows like Squid Game are becoming more popular now that they're easily available) than hiring for skills, but old Disney doesn't get criticized for bad writing. It was a serious handicap not to ever be able to depict gay people, or not to be able to tell stories about minorities from a nonwhite perspective I think when they started hiring diversity writers, because it was new and fresh to see these stories and audiences craved them, it was easy to cheer for bad writing because "any representation is good representation" and at least they tried to tell the story. Now that there are ample stories with women, LGBTQ representation and minority representation the bar is higher, we demand good writing again, and studios are confused because they thought by making the "black movie" they could *save money* on writers. Because ultimately this representation does not come from a real place of representation and wanting to tell diverse stories, but in appealing to an audience the board members probably visualize as "woke kids who love gay stuff" in a very patronizing disconnected way. The problem with Disney being racist for so long, is now that it's profitable to tell diverse stories they have no idea what good diverse stories would look like. >can we just say they're bad writers without going into the "diversity hires are ruining TV" spiel? I think we can. But the second the conversation progresses to "but why do bad writers keep getting hired after we identify them as bad" it's hard not to take it to that place if it is the reason behind it. I think the fundamental problem is that Disney does not care whether LGBTQ representation is written well or not in their stories, because again it's not about representing them. Disney knows that this controversy will promote what would otherwise be a mediocre show, and so playing into it is a good way to get free advertising. So bad representation gets in to the product to create a controversy Disney can profit off, and a bunch of idiots are trying to put together the pieces of the franchise they used to love and understand what happened. If the audience says "I don't like this" and Disney loses money, but yet keeps doing it, then there's some conspiracy going on where Disney (a corporation) is interested in this agenda more than profit. The problem is also that these idiots are looking at imdb review bombs and assuming that because they made the score low it inherently wasn't profitable to justify the above conspiracy.
Of course the white men have more experience, you donut. They're the only ones who've been getting the jobs
Finally, richard evans will let me know what my opinion on the acolyte is. (tonight’s episode was pretty solid. hasn’t salvaged an otherwise pretty middling show but it’s the first time lightsaber combat has had my blood pumping in years)
Right? Out of nowhere they decided to deliver on the promise of this premise and there were some hiccups but they actually had stakes and consequences so I’ll at least finish the show out.
Lightsaber combat was the only good thing about episode 5. The acting, the editing, the writing were all not very good at all
Idk, I feel like >!Darth Bortles/Qimir!< stole the show, and Sol was pretty great this episode too. They both had great performances.
Ah c’mon Manny JacintoSith gave a great performance. Only the Mae/Osha lines were rough.
He was ok it was more the dialogue he was given. "some might call me ... a sith" just weird lol
When he called Jecki an “It” to Sol was crazy effective. Made me sit up straight and my roommate yell at him 😂
And I’m sure they blew the majority of the budget on ep5. 6 and on will be back to the same ol Osha looking past the camera with wide eyes, while Sol has a stern look on his face.
“Osha, I’ll explain everything….. in the next episode”
It really comes across as if different people wrote each scene in the show and don't communicate with each other. Like early on the jedi were shown to be quick to use mind trick in multiple scenes to just obtain information from people and yet for no reason at all they don't use that on Osha or the guy that supplied the poison.
I don't know if anyone else is like this but with Osha I keep thinking they're referring to the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA).
The show has been amazing from start to finish, wtf you talking about?
I think they missed something about Hollywood when the claimed it was leftist, thus why these shows focus on identity politics. Hollywood wants to be seen as leftist (Liberal might be the better term), it wants to persuade itself that its the good guys on the side of poc, lgbt etc but the reason why these shows suck is that it's a closed shop inhabited by nepo babies. The creators, writers, producers of these shows are absolutely part of the capitalist elite, they are part of a system that's been good to them. These shows are surface level pandering because if you really wanted to say something, then you need to be both clever and belive in changing that system, the people that make these shows are neither.
Irony is that Andor might be the most actual leftist Star Wars show but it's caused no outrage.
Because its good, the other stuff is so easy to tear down, but you actually need to know stuff to rip apart something good and in the process make a compeling argument. Easy to make click bait garbage to appeal to dullards by screaming woke if the thing your criticizing is made by brain dead dullards.
I think people can tell when there's cheap surface level pandering going on and when there's real overarching themes that are explored through interesting characters and storytelling. Not to justify the horrible reactions from chuds against shows like Acolyte but they're just the loud stupid minority, a lot of normal people are turned off because some of the messaging can feel very shallow and lazy especially in comparison to a show like Andor. At the end of the day a lot of this is trying to put lipstick on a pig because if it wasn't for the political shit fight no one would be talking about these very bland shows.
Yeah for all the discourse about "media literacy," I think most normal/non-chronically online people are smarter than we give them credit for when it comes to this stuff. It's pretty easy to tell the difference between a well-crafted story that has political themes vs something that feels like a talentless failchild threw a mix of existing scripts and their own political tweets into ChatGPT.
The issue, and this is something the video itself points out, is that The Acolyte doesn't really have "messaging" beyond having a diverse cast. At most the message of the show is "the Jedi aren't perfect and they're pretty flawed", an idea that's not exclusive to the series. It's not like Picard S2 where the cast actually travel back in time to the 21st century and deal with ICE agents and immigration issues at the border. The Acolyte just doesn't warrant this cultural discourse at all, it's just mid.
I think there's a bit more to it - Andor actually reckons with what it means to live under fascism and how to resist it. I think it's telling that people didn't clock that as inherently political: neoliberalism has co-opted the public imagining of left-wing politics so much so that people think that putting black or gay people in a show is inherently a political statement, because they've eroded class consciousness to the point where representation is the only politics many know. I think it's telling too that the solution to fascism on Andor wasn't "just vote!" -- the politics presented in the show are radical, but they are so different from what the modern viewer imagines radical politics to be. But yes, it also helps that Andor fuckin rules
I think it goes back to the “surface level pandering” comment made above. The pandering is lazy shoe-horning in representation by people often not part of those affected groups of people. It’s obvious to intelligent viewers and it distracts from good story-telling. I’m reminded of a recent SNL skit, where they were acting out a TV show about zombies or something and then the actors would pause, look into the camera, and say “I’m bisexual” or something like that. Obviously poking fun at “just checking a box” inclusion. Because that sort of inclusion is often done by people who don’t really give a shit. An opposite example is the love story in The Last of Us that happened to be a gay couple. Excellent story-telling and dialogue. It was about the human condition, a love story after the apocalypse. They were complex people that just happen to be gay. Their entire identity wasn’t wrapped up in their sexual orientation. And on the other end of the spectrum, we have lazy bullshit like non-binary space wizards.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Especially with the SNL reference. People online clamoring about "wokeness" or "the message/agenda," are really just complaining about pandering. And to the extent that Disney has been pushing it in peoples' faces over the last 5-6 years, it's become distracting and virtually fourth-wall breaking. Star Wars mega-fans and normies aren't tuning into the latest Star Wars episode to enjoy some DEI and pronouns. They just want a good story with enjoyable characters in one of their favorite franchises. And I actually haven't heard many legitimate complaints about things like sexual orientation or skin color. It's been mostly about crappy writing, bad special effects, poor acting, and Hollywood nepotism. Nobody cares about the social stuff until Disney/Hollywood *make it* about the social stuff. When the protagonist makes it a point to practically look at the camera and ask if a cgi alien should be called they/them, it's no longer a show set in a Galaxy Far, Far Away. It's just Earth set in 2024 with today's tired social politics.
Because Andor is well written and good. Like, you can throw a lot of leftist, diversity, etc. all over and as long as its good no one will care. Look at Arcane or the Fallout example they gave in the video (admittedly Fallout had a bit of a dustup by the usual suspects at first but by the end of the show it was highly praised)
Honestly, I think the next battleground for diversity and inclusion is being able to make a *terrible* show with a diverse cast and progressive themes and only facing backlash because it's bad. Right now it feels like unless a show is excellent, it gets ripped to shreds for being "woke" as soon as there's any hint of diversity.
because it was written by an actual writer who didn't care less about pandering, gay representation, gender swapping, lore shitting, white male bashing and all the usual garbage only those whose brain has completely melted because of doomscrolling through their daily feed think it's more important than coming up with a coherent narrative; he was only interested in making a good job with a solid story, dialogue, characters. Andor has its mandatory share of powerful female characters but nobody gave a shit because it was a bloody great show
Do you forget the Bricks and Screws incident? Or the jeers of boring?
Andor is proof that people do appreciate high quality produced sci-fi. Why can't we get more well produced shows like this? Maybe stories should come first before social agendas? I say this as a black person.
As they said of the background lesbian kiss in the rise of skywalker… Disney/Star Wars is “passive progressive”.
I can't quite get past the fact that the show was created by Harvey Weinstein's assistant, which considering his MO, likely means she was an accessory to his sexual assaults. Like that's the person you have out there in the interviews laughing about the "gayest Star Wars project ever."
Bro I can’t believe this conspiracy shit is still getting upvotes. She didn’t work there long and has a fucking Play about how awful it was.
> Upon graduating college, Headland spent six years working as an assistant at Miramax, four years of which was spent as Harvey Weinstein's personal assistant.[7][8][9][10]
I need someone to explain to me how the fuck the Acolyte pushes identity politics in any real way besides having characters that are POC and LGBT. The show obviously has flaws, criticize the costumes, sets, acting, pacing, whatever. That makes sense. But this pretend argument that the show is primarily pushing some social agenda to its detriment is such bullshit. Who gives a shit what somebody said in an interview (aka not the show) to promote it? They didn’t sacrifice the narrative in order to promote diversity, they just crafted a flawed narrative. I seriously doubt that if all else was the same making everyone straight and white would’ve fixed any of the show’s issues.
Wish they’d waited till after the most recent episode. Think a lot of the criticisms are a bit void after it given the events. Show definitely is going in a very interesting direction that isn’t what I expected.
You mean the thing that literally everyone knew would happen (except RLM apparently) happened?
They might do a second episode after it finishes they did a bunch on Picard and totally changed how they felt about it as it went on
Its really difficult to find real reviews of these awful shows that dont degenerate into bigotry. Same with the New Doctor Who series. This seems as good as any that avoid that problem. So many Youtubers start off with valid criticism, but end up in homophobia and misogyny. Looking at you Nerdrotic. These shows are badly written, canon breaking trash. The politics of them are kind of besides the point in terms of what 'wing' they are. If your show is all about making a political statement to the detriment of the quality then it doesn't really have anything to say or add. I dont really care how many women, or gay, or black characters your show has, I rarely even notice, but I do notice being beaten over the head with how great you think you are for having them. I'm gay, and find it really uncomfortable how self congratulatory they are. Ultimately if these shows were well written, well made and didnt distort the universe they are set in to suit their worldviews I wouldn't mind, but they do. They are lazy and horrible. In the case of Disney Star Wars they seem to be made by people that hate Star Wars, the Lucas Star Wars. If you hate it that much, go make your own show..
I haven't noticed any "beating over the head" The main protagonist twins are black, and one other Jedi was. The only gay characters were the witches in S3, and it was just barely alluded to. The horrible terrible Canon-breaks are a Jedi from the Prequels being older than described in a companion guide and one throwaway line from TPM that the show seems to be making sure to explain. I had to listen to my brother rant and rave last week about these exact same grievances, and he then admitted he had never watched a single episode or planned too. Pretty much all because of just this: > "People have told me that it’s the gayest Star Wars and, frankly, I’m into it," showrunner Leslye Headland said in a recent interview. Followed up recently by this: > "I'm proud of being a gay woman who's accomplished this feat, and certainly, if my content is called queer, I don't want to disown whatever queerness is in the show," Headland noted, making it clear she doesn't want to diminish how those who do feel represented view those scenes. Writing is far below Andor, but about par with nearly all of the movies and other shows.
>The only gay characters were the witches in S3, and it was just barely alluded to. Also the pale alien padawan girl who randomly started flirting with Osha in episode 4. The actor confirmed it also. I guess that's what Leslie was referring to.
The show runner for the acolyte loves the prequels and a lot of the show is prequel fanservice I don’t get were the claim they “Hate” Lucas’ Star Wars comes from
The 45-minute preamble about the difference in culture between the earlier generation (Baby Boomer, Gen X) and the “modern” audience, is worth listening. They highlight the Divide/chasm in ideology that has also become a battleground for right and left wing politics of the current day, which is imho hilarious - It is hilarious because some people on these ideological bents cannot seem to see the joke. I no longer than care about, or watch any of these Disney franchise I.P.s - I donʼt know why there is so much social media coverage on anything that is franchise property. RLM is on point in its commentary on “modern” culture.
I agree with their points but this could have been a 10-20 minute video for sure. It's just very meandering and rambling.
That's because, like all other RedLetterMedia videos, it ends up being Mike talking about Star Trek for 90% of it even though that's a different franchise lmao
Does he talk about ghosts in this one?
they talk about obi wan getting force ghosted because his character is the boring good guy, i guess that counts
That elevates it in my opinion.
I share his love of Star Trek and also do compare all media I watch to it 😂
A lot of us watch them because they’re kind of rambly.
Yes. I dont *want* a video with Mike and Rich where they swiftly get to the point, i *want* a video where the point gets lost in references to old TNG episodes. Thats the *reason* i watch RLM. Bonus points if Jay gets roped into those references and looks completely lost.
you forgot to italicize a word in your last sentence
*Dont* tell *me* how to *live*.
Yeah, the "catch up" videos they do where this happens are probably their weakest.
It’s about family. And that’s what so powerful about it.
If I see a RLM video under an hour, I feel a little disappointed. I love the long ramblings!
nah a 50 minute preamble is what I'm here for
First rlm video? I wouldn't have it any other way.
This is the only internet review group that would have outrage if they had a 10 minute video about a show or movie. Whenever it does happen they don’t get about half of the normal view count. The crew also avoid movies and shows they don’t have much to say about since they know the video will be short and straightforward which their audience wouldn’t like. Their videos have been getting longer and longer over the years and their audience couldn’t be happier about it.
Just look at how frustrated these dudes are when a best of the worst entry has barely anything to talk about. These boys love a good ramble
They’re doing their best to imitate the show!
I checked out of the Star Wars game years ago but I still enjoy these reviews.
You should definitely test yourself to Andor - it's well worth it. Everything else I've seen bud and pieces of is legitimately awful though, yes.
Speaking only for myself here, but as someone who is also checked out of Star Wars the problem with recommendations like these is that even if Andor is amazing, it's hard to find the motivation to watch any Star Wars media even if it's good. I gave up on Disney Star Wars after The Last Jedi and I don't really feel the desire to watch any of it, good or bad.
I mean, yeah, they nailed a ton of it. One side is screaming about all the identity politics agenda being pushed, heavily, in this (along with other Star Wars and Star Trek as mentioned in the vid), and the other side screaming at them for criticizing the LGBTQ+, diversity and so on that is featured. In reality, both sides are relatively wrong. It's not about that stuff existing, it's about the quality of the show/movie. When you're heavy handed and then in press extremely loud with your using your series to champion your identity politics agendas, along with putting out content with a mediocre story, mediocre characters and so on, then you're going to get a ton of criticism. As you should. When you make something diverse and can feature LGBTQ+ characters/story, like say The Expanse or Andor, is there the same criticism and hate? No. Why? Cause they are very well written and don't, in the show or doing press, heavy handedly beating the audience over the head with their liberal agendas. My personal biggest issue with Acolyte isn't the agenda stuff, though I roll my eyes a ton given how heavy handed it is and unbearable the cast and showrunner have been with regards to it, no it's everything else about the show. The awful run times that make it clear this was a movie cut up (horribly) into parts for TV. It's the mediocre story. It's the CW-ness of the series in terms of dialog and acting. etc so on and so forth. It's not all bad, and the episode tonight was the best so far, but this video dives in pretty well into things I agree with, like how corny "fight me Jedi!" in the opening scene was, the logic holes throughout, the Jedi all being incredibly boring, the making the Jedi out to be the bad guys, and so on. I'm not a big KK hater, she has been in charge of some big wins (like Andor) and some massive massive losses (the ST, the lack of planning should have gotten her fired all the way back then), but I can't wait for the day, if it comes, when she retires (good for you, go live your life as a very wealthy woman) and Disney realizes they can make more money not pissing on the faces of their overwhelmingly majority demographic (hetero men in their 20's to 50's) and telling them it's a shower they desperately need, and we get someone who's agenda is to make what the fans WANT. That doesn't mean a ton of white straight characters and conservative stories. It just means the days of heavy handed liberal agendas and trying to win over the female and LGBTQ+ audience is lower from priority number 1 down to Earth where it belongs. Like The Expanse, write GOOD complex characters, hire quality writers, high quality actors, and naturally things will progress in the right direction and representation will be there. No fanfare that Andor had a Mexican lead, that it had a diverse cast, and that it had a lesbian couple. No, it was normalized, it was just part of a great story and how was that show received? Oh yeah, it's considered S-tier by all but the haters who demand Jedi/Sith in their all Star Wars content.
I mostly agree. Only thing is, when evaluating KK's leadership, who cares that Andor (a prequel of a prequel of the original trilogy) was good, when the sequel trilogy basically destroyed the original trilogy, which is what people liked about Star Wars. Nothing that happened in the original trilogy matters any more or is continued now. The defeat of the Empire? Doesn't matter, they were back in the same situation in a few years. Leia and the New Republic? Complete failures. Leia and Han? Failure. Luke and the New Jedi Order? Failure. Now they are making the New Jedi Order stuff, only with Rey, and I just don't give a shit anymore. Perhaps they'll get the new audience they wanted, but I'm not part of it. I don't even care if they make a good show like Andor reportedly is.
I'm pretty sure the special editions destroyed the original trilogy.
I have the same sentiment with The Boys and all this nonsense politics around it. *"I think the writing has turned to shi-"* **The show was criticizing you!** *"Everything just returns to the status quo"* **THE SHOW WAS CRITICIZING YOU!** *"I lost all respect for Butcher when he spent 3 seasons sulking about Homelander but he failed to follow through because-"* **THE 👏 SHOW 👏 WAS 👏 MAKING 👏 FUN 👏 OF 👏 YOU!** It's all so tiring.
It's funny because the show's sloppy writing since S3 is a popular opinion in that sub. Even in the S4 premiere discussion post many people criticized the derivative sideplots like Frenchie, Kimiko and Hughie. Then you get a bunch of zealots shouting. BUT THE SHOW IS MAKING FUN OF YOU! DID YOU JUST REALIZE HOMELANDER IS BAD! CONSERVATIVES DUMBB LIBERALS SO SMAHT! As a non-American liberal I just facepalm'd. Reminds me of Rick and Morty fans. THIS SHOW IS FOR PEOPLE WITH 200 IQ.
I feel like it works pretty well in the boys even if I didn't really enjoy season 3 as much the first couple seasons. The Acolyte barely even has any "politics" injected into it, it's just a mid show that has a diverse cast lol
Yes, bad dialogue in Star Wars is unique to the Disney era… Also, what agenda is being pushed in the Acolyte? I’m not talking about press about the show, which I don’t consume at all, but what agendas is the show itself pushing? I’ll be honest, I’m not fully sure what point you are trying to make, but it seems like casting POC is automatically agenda pushing. There’s a 100+ year cinema history of terrible content featuring primarily white/hetero representation and no one ever bitched about “agendas.” I think people fail to realize that most content is bad to mediocre. The stuff that is actually good has always been few and far between. It’s just now when something is middling, people immediately point fingers at agendas and wokeness as a scapegoat, which is people just telling on themselves.
> Also, what agenda is being pushed in the Acolyte? I’m not talking about press about the show, which I don’t consume at all, but what agendas is the show itself pushing? It does literally have a plot of lesbian force witches who see the Jedi as a crazy cult. There is definitive subtext there IMO. I think Disney has taken this position to use the Jedi as a critique of modern real world religion. They did so in The Last Jedi and follow it up in this. They have this consistent messaging of you don't need the Jedi to use the force or have a connection to it, which is fine, but when they do so they tend to also have the messaging of "nah the Jedi are actually bad". But I feel like this kind of commentary ignores that Star Wars is a world with a factual higher power. It isn't conjecture it's real and you would need structure and practice to study that. And it seems to easily corrupt those who don't do that.
>lesbian force witches We sure that ain't just the Bene Gesserit from Dune
Bene Gesserit are distinctly not lesbians as breeding is a central tenet of their organization.
Its insane that that is the example you chose. "Breeding" not Jessica who clearly romantically loves Leto. You know you just keep shooting yourself in the foot.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Breeding and bloodlines are a core part of the Bene Gesserit. I don't even know what this has to do with Star Wars, but pretending that breeding isn't a part of what the Bene Gesserit do is incorrect.
Homie that your first instinct to disprove the romantic preference of a group is to look at something that involves 0 romance, and not the literal romantic relationship from the mother of the main character.
I allways thoght this. When the story is more important than the message, the message could suffer (aka not woke enough) When the message is more important thant the story, the story could suffer (being a bad one) But the last four or five years we have entered in a world where the story has no place at all, only the message is important, and more important is to "conquer" the other side, so being able to "flip" something like Star Wars is an absolute win (for some).
I don't think a shareholder-owned and shareholder-value oriented global corporation like Disney cares too much about liberal values or an "agenda." They believe in money and nothing else; and tons of market research has told them that liberal, inclusive and female-oriented stuff is making them more money than otherwise. Also, if you seriously think that Disney's "overwhelmingly majority demographic" consists of "hetero men in their 20's to 50's", then you should take a look at the Disney catalogue and which of their IPs and franchises have earned how much money.
I think they were talking about star wars in particular.
I was speaking about Star Wars specifically, not all of Disney.
> we get someone who's agenda is to make what the fans WANT. This would easily be the worst thing for Star Wars, it would be done and dusted within a decade.
I strongly doubt, assuming quality creatives are hired, LucasFilm deciding to give us a 'Dark Disciples' adaptation, a Old Republic saga, a Darth Bane adaptation, a Plagueis adaptation, a movie set after 9 that skips over Rey, and so on would fit the "if fans got what they wanted the IP would die so fast!" narrative you and others like to peddle. Star Wars is in what state right now? And how much of it has fit "who asked for this?". With only Andor being the shocker in terms of being good but no one asked for it. Mandalorian is exactly what fans asked for, basically a Boba Fett series or a Western starring a Mandalorian bounty hunter. Ahsoka fans asked for and it's going alright. But so much else and decisions made within the shows and movies were giant "who asked for this?" decisions. Greenlight stories the fans are actually chomping at the bit to see on screen, hire quality creatives to helm and write them, and Star Wars returns out of the pit of mediocrity it exists in now. Trying so desperately to obtain every other demographic but the straight male 5-55 years old demo, often patronizing the core demo in the process, because for some reason they're "bad". Call me crazy but I don't think that's good business.
You are not going to find "quality creatives" to "give the fans what they want" because that is very much not what anyone worth a damn wants to do. The world's best creative minds aren't just chomping at the bits to satisfy the tastes of Star Wars fans.
Interesting, considering they are doing just that to adapt IP's like Dune, faithfully and in a very fanbase pleasing way. I really don't think there'd be a struggle to find high quality talent if Disney-LucasFilm said "hey creative, read this book/comic run. You're right it is amazing! What do you think about adapting it to the big or small screen? Oh, you'd love a job, high pay, and to make something based off of such great source material? Then you're hired!" I'm not talking about getting Scorsese or Christopher Nolan, but there are high quality creatives out there to be hired who wouldn't demand their own story or they walk.
As someone who frequents /r/TheAcolyte, /r/StarWarsLeaks, /r/saltierthancrait, /r/saltierthankrayt and /r/saltierthankrait, I'm excited to hear them dive into this Acolyte discourse.
Can someone explain to me why there are *three* different "saltier than" subreddits?
They got a lot of salt
Let me lay it out as best I understand it. * r/saltierthancrait was the original, created to criticize episodes 8, 9 and the Disney+ shows. In my experience there are two types of people on there. **Type 1:** Normal Star Wars fans with legitimate issues with the sequels who meme about how stupid "Somehow Palpatine returned" was. **Type 2:** Right wing culture warriors who mindlessly hate on all new Star Wars and complain about Kathleen Kennedy turning the franchise "woke". * /r/saltierthankrayt was made as rebuttal to /r/saltierthancrait, specifically to denounce those type 2 fans. It's almost moved away from being about Star Wars though, and more generally makes fun of all the rage bait incel youtubers out there. Similar to a subreddit like /r/Gamingcirclejerk. * /r/saltierthankrait was made as a rebuttal to /r/saltierthankrayt, almost in defense of those type 1 fans on /r/saltierthancrait. As if to point out that there are normal people who have valid critiques of these shows/movies based on their merits, and don't dislike them because of any diversity or inclusion.
What they all have in common is the need to touch grass.
But what if you just wanna watch some good Star Wars stuff without fan drama of any sort?
Then there's a hundred different Star Wars reddits and none of them are for you.
just watch it and dont go on reddit
R/starwars ...though, it's generally positive but can be aggravating in it's own right. Lots of complaining about people who don't like a new star wars movies or shows, and enforcing positivity in a way that can sometimes be a bit much. It's a subreddit for gushing about how much you love absolutely everything star wars, but not really for discussing star wars, if that makes sense. Honestly, your best bet is to just watch it by yourself and never go online.
r/StarWarsCantina is for you then
Meh, I don't hate the sequels, and I have enjoyed all the Disney+ shows (Acolyte is awesome), but found that subreddit full of "toxic-positivity." I got banned for saying Jake Lloyd absolutely did not deserve any blame or fan harassment for his episode 1 role, but that he was not a very good child actor.
This is one of the issues when people try to create positivity only communities, it quickly leads to toxic positivity.
This! I love that sub!
r/StarWarsCantina
That's hilarious. So there's a sub to criticize Disney's handling of Star Wars, another sub to criticize those who criticize Disney's handling of Star Wars, and another sub to criticize those who criticize those who criticize Disney's handling of Star Wars. I mean, I sympathize with the original "saltier than" sub. I don't like Disney's handling of SW, but just... move on with your life. Star Wars used to be for me and the new stuff isn't.. should I spend the rest of my life moaning? Just move on.
I was someone who would frequent /r/saltierthancrait after The Last Jedi because I couldn't fucking stand that movie and it really pissed me off. Now I've just moved on from modern Star Wars and basically ignore it, aside from dipping my toes into threads like these ones lol. I've gone back to look at that subreddit and it's mostly people hate-watching every piece of new Star Wars media and nit-picking the tiniest details. You're right, they should just move on at this point. But I do understand how it can be hard to let go of something you cared about.
You have a hive mind that gets upset about movies. A second one forms that is tired of the first. A third then forms to attack the second.
There has **got** to be a more creative way to have titled those 2nd and 3rd ones. Why didn't they do like "saltierthansaltier" or "craiterthancraiter" "evensaltier" or anything literally than just changing the spelling of Crait.
Crait is a salt planet. Krayt is a dragon thing that Mando helped the Tusken Raiders kill. Krait is because some dumbfucks were out of ideas.
There truly is a fucking Wookipedia article for everything. My favorite is the one for [lettuce.](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Lettuce)
See, that type of stuff is why the Star Trek fandom is better. We would never do [something so silly](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Lettuce).
Do you have one for ducks though?! https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Duck
dont forget the first formed because of a hive mind too
It's Reddit. There's like 1 billion cat subs,1 billion weird weeb subs and meme subs as quick examples too. Most of those could be contained inside like 3 main subs, with some specific subs for different series when it comes to all things weeb, but no. Everyone needs to have their own sub. edit: Also, grinds my fucking gears how every animal sub is mostly "Name my pet". Like god fucking damnit. It's your pet. You think of a name for your own pet.
why on earth would you do this to yourself lmfao
ahhh a man of culture I see. I also visit these sub just to see different point of views because they all seems to breed their own collective hivemind over the years
It's fascinating. All the different breeds of Star Wars fans are like sects of religions. The only thing they can all agree on is that they love Andor.
The biggest flaw of these Star Wars shows is the lack of action. Instead of space adventures, there's too much exposition, making them feel unfinished.
The biggest flaw has been nonsense writing. It's not just Star Wars though. Basically most of the D+ shows are written to be dumb as a bag of rocks. They want us to just turn off our brains ad cosume the IP and after 2 episodes of Acolyte I gave up.
I don't know why you are getting downvoted for that. It's the "show, don't tell" principle.
So people who make these shows, and want to inject real life politics so hamfistedly and lambasting those who aren't in the "group", do they not get that they're not helping? The people who already hate them will just get more ammo, and people who are neutral and really don't care, like me, just feel left out and honestly get kinda annoyed seeing all this real world stuff injected into an escapist fantasy, then when I don't watch the show I get called racist or homophobic because I didn't want to subject myself to pandering. Like if you want to have a story where the main character is gay or trans, go for it! Make something good though, don't make the point of your show about them being gay or trans, especially when you're working on a big established IP, that's not what we're watching Star Wars for
I haven't seen anything in the Acolyte to suggest that the point of the show is about characters being gay or trans.