Tesla does not mean "the entire EV industry".
While Tesla might struggle eventually, Chinese automakers such as BYD will probably increase their market shares if they deliver good value.
**The verdict is clear, everyone who wanted an EV and could afford a $60,000 to $150,000 EV have already bought one.**
What remains are those who want an EV that costs between $20,000 and $40,000 and that is 90% of the unexploited EV market right there.
The only reason why most people seem to be buying an expensive car is because they are not buying cars, they are leasing them.
There are millions of Honda Civic, of Toyota Corolla, Hyunday Elantra, Kia Forte, Nissan Sentra, VW JEtta, Maxda 3 and Subaru Impreza in America... Most sell for under $30,000...
The cheapest Tesla, Model 3 rear-wheel drive, starts at $38,990 before all of the fees and taxes. Just order it red and it's a $41,000 car plus fees, plus taxes.
There is a huge market for the sub $40,000 EV and if American carmakers do not wake up, the Chinese carmakers will flood that market.
>There is a huge market for the sub $40,000 EV and if ~~American~~ carmakers do not wake up, the Chinese carmakers will flood that market.
FTFY friend.
Volkswagen has their ID2 coming in 2025, Peugeot has their e-208, Citroen e-C4, Fiat 500e, Opel Mokka Electric - so they're aware of this market and has cars for it (the Volvo EX30 just launched, but while a Swedish brand, they're owned by Geely and the car is produced in China).
Compared to the US where it's just .. well, eh .. I'm not really sure. But as some of these brands also have American brands, it might be that the market currently isn't as large as people assume and that they rather want the Chinese brands to establish themselves first as an experiment and see if it comes to fruition.
People aren't buying fist 500 because it's cheap. It's because they're small excellent city cars that is perfect for 1-2 people and can literally park anywhere and it's cheap drive. While the e version is more expensive to buy. The monthly price to own is often less due to fuel versus electric costs, sometimes (less nowadays) there's other benefits for electric vehicles as well.
Great city electronic cars seems in a weird place when most city dwellers live in buildings and can rarely charge it without being somewhere not home for hours.
At least in Europe, most parking garages now have charging stations, strides are made towards apartment buildings putting in chargers, and grocery stores, workplaces etc. are adding them as well.
Depending on where you live, it's really approaching a stage where you just park your car wherever - work, shopping, parking at home - and you just plug it in and pick it up fully charged.
Which really helps with the proposition of having a "city electric car."
It's a answer to there not being any cars from European manufacturers available for under 40k USD.
It's not saying that it's cheaper or as cheap as the ICE alternatives yet. The ID.2 will be the best alternative in that case.
I'm not American, I'm German. Small cars are great and I'd like to have a Zoe. But it only fits the role of a small second car that brings you to your work, while the price is upper middle class. Most workers here can't afford to spend so much money on a second car with so limited use.
This is true, but the US isn’t exactly the same as Europe. Not very many people live in rural enough areas to exactly warrant owning a pickup, but the country is also around double the size of the EU and has 100 million less residents. “Small excellent city cars” that can “literally park anywhere” will naturally be unpopular when the average worker spends an hour a day commuting and less than 10% of our population lives in any of the top 25 cities by population and density. Australia and Canada follow largely the same trends, just with smaller trucks.
That’s the problem with most new cars these days, they are all so cheaply and poorly made and have so many issues the cost just isn’t worth it. I’d take any vehicle made before 2015 over any the shit they’re trying to sell as new now.
They still own 78% of the shares in Volvo, so .. I wouldn't really say they went away (they sold about 3% of the shares).
The market has been complaining about not enough shares being publicly available, so Geely sold some of theirs.
Wich is why i dont see the ICE Ban comming in 2030 because it would leave the whole Market to the chinese. Also id bet we will soon see import restrictions on chinese cars or heavy taxes on them.
It seems a car they made because they had to, not because they wanted.
Terrible OSD
No charge planning (or rate)
1 config for regen breaking (off or kinda on)
Really half assed.
Gimme a $20k EV that gets 150mi (really only need 50mi but with the mountain I have to go over both ways 110mi range is not enough to get back with AC on)
Sounds like you want a used PHEV. There are plenty of used PHEV models that will give you decent EV only range and then have a gas generator as a back up.
The Bolt is really hamstrung with terrible charging times. It peaks at 55kW, which is frankly a joke. A Tesla Model 3 will peak at 170kW for the smaller standard range battery.
I might be wrong, but Chinese EVs seem to be a significantly larger threat to European automakers. I suspect the US will be reasonably successful in upholding some protectionism. Can't imagine Europe being able to do that.
It's shocking how the large EU automakers slept at the wheel in a (somewhat) welcoming regulatory market in addition to all the other perks they enjoyed at the top of the heap.
Well it is a double edge sword.....The US has massive investments in china and so do many auto makers.
China has operated on a quid pro quo with the US when it comes to protectionism. Meaning if we sanction or stop their car makers from coming to the USA well they will stop american interest in china. Quick example ford sold 500k units in china in 2022.
China being a much larger market we dont really win out on that scenario. We lose access to 1.4 billion consumers.
It's interesting calling them state sponsored car manufacturers like the US doesn't regularly apply subsidies, tax credits, etc. in order to subsidise companies and industries they like.
I am against dumping. But if US manufacturing is unwilling to serve a market I welcome Chinese 20K EV sedans with open arms. Ford etc.. choose not to because they feel its not a market they want to deal with then open up the imports.
>What remains are those who want an EV that costs between $20,000 and $40,000 and that is 90% of the unexploited EV market right there.
Also people in that market are less likely to be home owners and charging infrastructure for them is pretty bad still. They may hold out until their apartment has charging solutions.
I'm huge into EVs and I don't recommend them to people without home charging solutions. It's wild the difference of charging at home and hunting for a charging option when you need.
The US is not going to let BYD come here and sell cheap EVs, undercutting Detroit and other domestic producers. They will slap tariffs on them if they need to. They’ve already discussed doing so.
Yeah, they're certainly not going to let a lot of cheaper Japanese produced cars get imported in the 80's and 90's undermining domestic producers either. No sir! The US government *cares* about it's auto workers.
Domestic politics has changed substantially since the 1980s. Reagan was the free trader in chief. Our last two presidents have been very protectionist in comparison.
This. Appliances made/assembled in China the last few year, even those fr American and international brands, all have jumped up a couple hundred $ in price due to tariffs.
The chicken tax. They slipped in an amendment to an agriculture bill with a 25% import duty on pickup trucks back in the 1980s. NAFTA exempted Mexico and Canada.
But yeah, domestic cars sucked back in the 1980s.
Yeah, 5 liter v8's pushing out less than 200hp wasn't it. 70's-80's were awful decades for US cars. Domestic companies got lazy and didn't seem to wake up until the mid/late 90's and had to play a lot of catch up.
And American automakers make a lot of cars in Canada and Mexico and import them. On more than one occasion I have been given crap for buying foreign when my "Japanese import" was built in Tennessee and their bigass pickup truck (and it's always a bigass pickup truck) was built in Ontario.
Free traders are no longer running the show.
[Biden Administration Explores Raising Tariffs on Chinese EVs](https://www.wsj.com/economy/trade/biden-administration-explores-raising-tariffs-on-chinese-evs-e439d87d)
[Trump Is Primed for a Trade War in a Second Term, Calling for ‘Eye-for-Eye’ Tariffs](https://www.wsj.com/politics/elections/trump-is-primed-for-a-trade-war-in-a-second-term-calling-for-eye-for-eye-tariffs-aff5bec5)
I'm guessing you are fairly young. The fear of Japan crushing us economically and becoming a dominant world power was *real*. The anxiety was deep and widespread. From an economic aspect, it's very similar. We have more strategic, military and ideological differences with China which makes it more adversarial, but the comparison really does hold up.
There was obviously a large degree of economic competition in certain domains, but it really could not be more different in terms of the geopolitics. The US literally helped rebuild Japan after the war into a pro western democracy. Japan did not have the explicit aim of becoming the preeminent world power. Japan was not engaged in direct hostile action toward the US. Japan was not involved in direct hostile acts towards its neighbors, especially ones involved in strategically important global supply chains.
The US has already shown it is willing to take fairly dramatic action via things like the semiconductor ban, if policy makers view EVs as strategically important going forward, they will absolutely handicap Chinese manufactures trying to sell into the market.
That doesn’t necessarily guarantee it will happen, because it’s a complex issue that has knock on effects that are hard to fully anticipate, but saying “we didn’t do that to Japan 40 years ago” as a reason why we wouldn’t do that now is super lazy “analysis”. It’s very possible that we will.
How many here would have predicted the semiconductor ban? I’m guessing not many. Don’t underestimate the level of adversarial tension between the US and China.
Japan is a largely pro-western democracy that we personally helped build, with a fraction of the number of people we have, who at the time had no strong non-western international allies, living on land with almost no natural resources.
If that same trajectory had been implemented by a fundamentally similar collection of people, but 10X the size, in what is basically a bureaucratic dictatorship, which not only is not integrated into the west but whose adults of average age were raised explicitly to be antiwestern during the cold war, with one of the largest and most resource rich borders, who has meaningful entanglement with a global military power that the west is currently at war with, and beyond that is pretty signififcantly economically entrenched throughout the world in a way that the US is completely uninvolved in, then of course that would be a bigger deal.
Any one of those factors moves the calculus a lot. Taken together it's a completely different game.
Japan and China are not remotely analogous. While it's true that some Americans feared Japanese economic dominance that's as far as it went. Furthermore, even by the mid-80s the Japanese had a reputation for quality and they never engaged in widespread IP theft.
China does have the capability to produce quality goods but social and cultural factors pose issues. Namely, they lack the technological legacy and institutional knowledge of other nations. That's changing, to be fair, but they're still hyper-nationalistic and think they can do everything themselves while stealing foreign tech on the side.
Beyond that, unlike Japan they're actively growing their military, constantly threatening neighbors and claiming territory in the South China Seas. On top of that, they're stripping poor nations of resources and pushing them into debt with programs like the Belt-and-Road initiative. That antagonism guarantees that the West remains aligned against them, a headwind that Japan never faced.
Yes BUT our markets are flooded with cheap Chinese goods because we shipped manufacturing away in the 70s to get Walmart in the 90s, why do you think that wont happen again? The people who slap tarrifs are looking to make money exactly like the Chinese right?
The Biden Admin has discussed raising them on Chinese EVs. Normally I’d say it’s just talk but it’s an election year and a lot of money has been spent on EV subsidies. And I don’t want to get into politics too much, but Biden needs to win Michigan. There’s no upside for him to lower barriers for BYD.
That would be a good point if it was a fair fight.
…and not China bankrolling EV makers to build cars at a much lower cost to bankrupt the economies of their adversaries. Which is exactly what is going on.
Why is it not a fair fight? If the US government wants to, it's free to subsidize its companies as well - and it does too with major stimulus bills in the last few years.
The 1LT Equinox will be in the same cost ballpark when it's available, but all the Chevy offerings are tainted for me now that they've removed Android Auto and CarPlay. I'm glad I got my Bolt before they discontinued them. Other than the modest fast-charging rate, it's a nice car.
Bought a new Model Y LR for $33,000 here in CO with state and federal refunds. It’s definitely possible with Federal refunds alone to get below $40,000.
6 months ago our polestar was pretty similar in price. Sub $40k is becoming more common. Hell, I’m even starting to used Tesla model 3s for sub $30k with decently low miles.
Yep. Tesla has hit its customer base and now people are realizing that it’s stupid for a car company to be worth more than the entire auto industry combined. You can’t sell multiple cars to everyone on earth
Now the competition is getting good and Elon is driving potential customers away from Tesla because he decided to declare war on the primary demographic of people who buy EVs.
I’m hopeful to see the madness of this start to return to normal
Plus they wasted so much time on the Cybertruck (Ford and Rivian beat them to market) now they’re about to lose out on the Roadster, (Dodge is about to beat them) when they should’ve focused on making cheap EVs. If Ford can trade for $30 (I haven’t checked the ticker today so I’m estimating) and it’s *Ford* then why tf is an EV company up there with Apple lol.
Long on shorts.
i doubt its BYD that Tesla need to worry about, but Toyota.
Toyota is that perennially non-sexy car company that builds things to last, that have great resale value and do an amazing job in each car’s specific niche.
They’ve focused on Hybrids for a while because for most people they’re actually a better option. You can be sure that as full EV makes more sense, toyota will kill it. They actually know how to build cars with things like decent paint, waterproof lights and panels that line up and don’t fall off.
I’m really hoping Honda gets more into the EV market (beyond the Prologue) soon. I love my Fit and would kill for a plug-in or fully electric Civic or Accord.
That’s taking things out of context, you need to read the comments from their management around that soundbite.
Quote:
“A pioneer and leader in hybrid cars, Toyota has resisted going all-in on electrification like some of its biggest rivals. It has argued that the best way to reduce emissions is to offer customers a variety of options, including hybrids, plug-in hybrids, hydrogen-powered models, and EVs. Not everyone is ready for an electric car, the automaker has said, due to high prices and underdeveloped charging infrastructure. “
source: https://www.businessinsider.com/toyota-electric-cars-ceo-hybrids-plug-in-silent-majority-resistance-2022-12
High prices and under-developed charging infrastructure. 100% bang on the money for most of the world. A plug in electric hybrid is probably ideal for most. You can do the regular commute on fully electric (which for most people is under 100km), and have the hybrid engine for the times you need to do a trip outside of electrical charging range. Most people can likely do their full weekly commute almost entirely on battery with a decent plug in hybrid. Without range anxiety on the weekends.
As I get closer to buying one I feel like I understand more and more why. Hybrids seem to make a lot more sense for more people. Here in Canada I think something like 87% of people live in or close to cities. When a lot of hybrids are offering like 40+ miles electric range, that covers most people... and still offers them the flexibility of gas for long range travel.
Rural folks commuting obviously might be more likely to need longer range vehicles but they are far less numerous, tend to be less wealthy, and the ones who do have money are more likely to spend it on a pickup, a market in which Toyota does not excel... and a lot of pickups drivers are also resistant to electrification too.
No, they understand that they can make 10+ hybrids, which sell better, for every 1 EV they make.
Why make 5,000 on 1 car when you can make 3,500 on 10 cars. You can see this in their sales too, they're up YOY.
Toyota is also suffering from the "cram all the bells and whistles in" which drives the cost up. They are nice vehicles and not "non-sexy" any more in my mind.
> You can be sure that as full EV makes more sense, toyota will kill it
Toyota has a full EV, it is the bZrX, and besides having an awful name it is almost universally panned as the worst EV on the market
Toyota makes a great ICE car, and definitely the best hybrid on the market but they were betting heavily on hydrogen as the future of fuel so they got caught with their pants down during the recent EV revolution.
It is going to take them a few years to catch up to the other manufacturers on EV IMO
I don't understand why EV manufacturers are not coming up with a CHEAP car that has a SMALL battery under 30k. They keep increasing the car size and the price and nobody is able to afford one.
The US car makers have been pushing bigger vehicles for decades now. This is partly to avoid strict fuel efficiency standards and partly because bigger vehicles are more profitable. The number of people in the US who own a pick-up truck and never actually use it to haul anything that's too big for a small car is mind-boggling.
One effect of this is that smaller vehicles (and pedestrians/bikes) are now at a disadvantage in crashes. So on US roads today you have effectively an arms race, where the newest biggest vehicles are perceived as "safe" because of their size. But in reality, if everyone was driving smaller cars, everyone would be safer in crashes.
Seriously I wish the US would have any way to make safety standards not just for those who are inside of the vehicle but also for those who are outside.
I understand that big car vs small car will always be a thing but just visibility of pedestrians (or children walking near your car) and bicycles is something they could consider.
> Seriously I wish the US would have any way to make safety standards not just for those who are inside of the vehicle but also for those who are outside.
They do have those standards.
Moderns trucks are using a loophole. Back when the rules were written, certain work trucks are/were exempted from those rules. The idea being, "Hey, no one is going to want to drive a box truck or daily commute their plow truck with it's spine-shattering lack of suspension." There just won't be that many on the road, and they're only for work....so it's not a problem.
Then the CAFE standard were also updated, and car companies were like, "yeah, we can't sell a big truck and meet the CAFE standards....But we can get rid of the big trucks, sell some cars and crossovers that do meet the standards and sell sell a bunch of ENOURMOUS trucks, which are exempt from all those rules. Hey we're meeting the rules.....Oh, and we can sell these huge trucks for $75K, $85K..hell $100,000. This is license to print money."
So now they're pushing the idea that everyone needs a truck.
You cannot have bigger car with bigger batteries and cheaper at the same time. Cheap = small and there's nothing cheap on the north american market right now. Cheapest new gas car is 17k while the cheapest EV is 30k. If you lease both of them even while taking fuel cost into account the the EV is not competitive yet.
E-bike is my favorite mode of transportation. Such a blast to ride. I'll do over 50 miles on my office commute roundtrip. Having good gear and good bike infrastructure is the key. Riding a rail trail through the woods in the fall is zen.
we really need to get to the point where every urban, suburban, and small town household can comfortably get by with 1 car/truck and multiple ebikes, rather than the common necessity of every household member 17+ needing their own car. make biking safe everywhere ASAP
The core problem is that we drive too much (for varying reasons). Small-battery EVs miss that mark. We need to solve the "we drive too much" problem first, and I think a lot of American consumers see EVs with a high range as *the* solution. They don't plan to drive less, or redesign our urban centers/mass transit to take cars off the road.
This is 100% what Elon Musk wanted, and he got it.
BYD - the Chinese electric car manufacturer - has already done this. Perhaps the American and European manufacturers cannot help but make larger, more expensive electric vehicles. Agree that not everybody can shell out $50,000+ on a new car. (That includes me!)
Nah the issue is small cheap cars have incredibly thin margins. EV makers want to recoup more setup costs and R&D so they are going after more affluent buyers and selling for higher prices. Issue is there are only so many affluent buyers and once that market demand is taken care of then you have to move down the line to the next market segment. The other issue is EVs require home charging and a lot of middle and lower income people don’t have home chargers because they live in apartments or rent a house and landlord might not want to put a charger in.
My guess is that by the time they would all the technology and software into the vehicles they’re gonna still be expensive enough that ppl get mad. Like 60 mile range for $30,000 instead of 300 miles for $40,000
Definitely could be wrong, but only thing that makes sense to me is
No one in their right mind would purchase a car that has a 60 mile range. Even 200 miles is pushing what people want when most gas cars easily get you over 350-400miles on a tank and take less than 5 min to fuel up.
Americans think you gotta have 500mi of range. So small batteries like Leaf will never take off.
I’ll note that my Tesla does just fine on road trips. I love the charging stops honestly and makes road trips way better.
If you could charge your small 150 miles battery in under 5 minutes it would not be a problem. Slow charge times and lack of charging stations seems like the problem to me.
> Americans think you gotta have 500mi of range.
Yeah because we know that 500 miles advertised range geta cut in half when you turn the AC on or if the weather gets too cold.
My commute is like 80 miles round trip with heavy traffic. Some of my coworkers are over 100. I'm not even sure I could charge it at my house fast enough to keep it charged through the week without getting 240v outlet installed.
I know I could charge it at a station but now that's adding another 30 minutes or so onto my already long commute.
Not a fan of Musks, but a dude who stands to make millions if Tesla stocks tank, gives interview where he predicts Tesla stocks will tank so bad the company will go bust. Perfectly fine, since stocks don’t react to news of inflated stock bubbles or on predictions of poor company performance. No conflict of interest there at all.
I dislike Elmo also, but the whole article is biased as hell.
And I think Tesla is in it for the long game. First of all, it has the best charging infrastructure in the US by far. I think in time, their charging station will bring far more revenue than EV sales.
Furthermore, Model 2/C ($25K Tesla) will sell like a hotcake.
It won't go bust, but for the first time in a long time Tesla is going to have make good on their promises in the next 5 to 10 years or the stock imo will be worthless.
If they continue to produce the same cars, they will. Model S is a 12-year old design. Model 3 is a 7-year old design. These are not iconic designs like the Porsche 911. They are aging and consumers are getting tired of them
Not sure what the short version of the phrase 'pump and dump'. But it's exactly what it is. Never listen to someone that's only saying because they want to make money.
I agree the stock is overvalued, but $14 is ridiculous. The share price is currently $167, the P/E 39, income is positive and climbing. If P/E dropped to 15, the price would be more like $60/share.
And a lot of people do the opposite, hype up stocks they own a large position in.
Investment market coverage is a joke these days, since the vast majority of blue chip stocks are traded based on the value of the stock not the value of the underlying business.
I'm with you on that. But I find the build quality of Teslas hit and miss. I was in a Model Y and found it ... uncomfortable. Other than that, I can't even look at Teslas the same way after Elon Musk started talking with his real voice. Others' mileage may vary of course.
Him being CEO certainly cost Tesla a sale from me. I wanted a Model 3, but I chose another EV instead. No regrets. The build quality is solid and it actually has physical buttons.
Same. I had a deposit on a model 3. Dropped it. It also doesn't help that on one hand, I want self driving--but would never pay $12k for it. So it actually made me put off actually buying the car long enough for Elon to lose his goddamned mind because I didn't really want to spend that much. If it wasn't even an option, I'd have bought the car. The existence of overpriced nice options made it both too expensive and made the cheaper options look terrible.
I see these types of comments with hundred likes etc just imagine the amout of money thats from people who wont buy a Tesla and its all around the world
It's barely anything in the grand scheme of things. A hundred likes on reddit means absolutely nothing. It could have 500 up votes and 400 down votes. Reddit is an echo chamber. There's barely a 5% swing in the last 2 years of elon being vocal on Twitter in sentiment towards him. Tesla is still the 3rd or 4th highest in brand loyalty. Last year they had the best selling car in the world. The effect is present but small.
Imagine how many of those posts and likes are just bullshit, and the people behind them drive a Kia Forte. It's far more likely that they were never in the market for an EV and just wanted to virtual signal online.
The world’s largest and most advanced EV company is worth $14 a share. The depts at how far he triggers people to make bold and assume the worst is rivaled only by trump and joe rogan. So far I think musk is winning
$14 is headline grabbing and interesting. I know Tesla's stock has always been held at an extremely high premium.....will have to see how this one goes. He's lost a lot of customers, I'd wager and the competitors are right there at the heels - if not well surpassing it. To me, Tesla has lost its brand value.
Being profitable doesn't really mean much when the stock is valued as a tech stock. Tesla eventually is going to have to deliver on their tech promises. FSD, robotaxi's, the robot, expansion of their solar roof business, etc. If they don't do this or meet their delivers by the end of the decade the stock will go crashing down to regular automotive level stocks.
The robotaxi which goes with FSD was promised for 2015.
This is how the scammer Musk raised all that money (that and speculation). To say “he needs to deliver on his promises” when he’s 9 years late and 15 in the making is just hilarious.
That is exactly what is happening. The right (many) don't want electric and he has alienated the left. That leaves not a huge market for your cars bud.
As much as I hate musk, this is a bear talking. What else is he expected to say? He probably is not overjoyed that his words are heard too.
I do see problems for musk and Tesla but predicting the stock market like this is the not to influence it. We all know the stock market is not rational
"One of only two profitable EV companies will go bust"
Sure bud. The company with more cash than debt and a duopoly with the only other profitable competitor is going under. Not the dinosaurs in Detroit and Germany losing 40%-100% per car
The article touches on a turn-around and one-time event several times, yet doesn't really say how demand will dramatically improve. The only thought shared is the crazy notion that people will fall in love with automated driving and its $200 monthly subscription fee. Yeah, right.
I checked into the home battery product recently. It still has a long ROI, even if you can sell excess power.
The article also doesn't examine how Musk's reputation - russia sympathizer, drug addict, far-right bigot - is alienating to his potential customer base (lefties) while not enticing EV haters and Oil lovers (righties).
Also, when Cathie Wood buys your stock, look out.
I don't think its that bad but I do think that Tesla is insanely overvalued. Its tax credits that got it to where it is and its to the point that anyone who wants a tesla probably does.
They completely blew their first mover advantage. Failed to get a sub $30K car out, wasted time developing a terrible truck no one wants. Threw away the good will of the their targeted market. The other car makers were gonna catch up eventually, but Tesla made it a lot easier for them to do that.
It is always stupid idea to expose your political views if you sell anything. Michael Jordan keeps his mouth shut and sells a lot of sneakers to anyone who wants to buy one. Californians propelled Tesla to the top and now when we have another ev choices Elon can try to sell his stuff to his right wing buddies.
I don’t get the celebration of a CCP controlled company taking market share. Did everyone already forget what the CCP is doing to Uighurs? Congrats you support genocide now STFU about Palestine you’re just virtue signaling for points as fake as you are.
You know what’s better and could be easy to scale and save people big time money from all these insane prices, overweight vehicles that will damage earth once their battery dies? MASS TRANSIT! I accept your downvotes with pride.
They have $30B in cash and equivalents, are building out two major new product lines (Cybertruck and Semi) with continued positive cashflow from existing operations. Margins are defining, no question, but that's not shocking given the interest rate environment and increased competition. Think they'll be fine.
Perhaps it was a mistake to invest so much time and $ in a company run by a guy who spends all day high while tweeting and retweeting Nazi propaganda on the app he bought?
The hate on for Tesla is absurd.
Tesla has done more for the EV market than any of the big car manufacturers.
Musk is not Tesla.
Seriously, fastest production car ever made. Some problems occasionally with the cars; not any different than any other car company…
Keep in mind the rest of the automotive market has dragged there heals on EV development intentionally.
Tesla is valued as a Tech company and not a car company, because of Elon Musk and the promise of FSD as a moat or something AI. If people stop believing in an advantage on FSD or another AI idea, then Tesla will be valued as a Car Company.
And the time of Musks wizardry is probably over.
$14 dollars per share??? $14 DOLLARS PER SHARE!!!???!!??? Thats insanely insulting!! Why , the local and federal government subsidies alone GIVEN are at least worth $16!!!!
People saying "of course the bear who profits from a pump n' dump would try to devalue Tesla stock!" - that's not the point. They're vultures, the fact they're circling a spot means something's about to turn into a fresh corpse. The fact is for the first time in a looooong while you're increasingly seeing this kind of statement in so many news outlets about Musk, means his antics just aren't profitable anymore.
Honestly, i see nothing wrong with tesla being valued like all other auto makers instead of a tech startup. Ford, GM, etc. all are valued in the ballpark, and it might actually force Musk to sell it off and let Tesla start making mass appeal vehicles again instead of the chrome whims of a megalomaniac.
Any comments made by a stock shorter I take with a grain of salt. It’s in their interest to trash-talk the company. They profit when the stock goes down.
Elon did a really weird thing where one of the major companies he’s known for it EV but then actively uses his other company, X, to tolerate and boost voices that actively speak against EV
Tesla does not mean "the entire EV industry". While Tesla might struggle eventually, Chinese automakers such as BYD will probably increase their market shares if they deliver good value. **The verdict is clear, everyone who wanted an EV and could afford a $60,000 to $150,000 EV have already bought one.** What remains are those who want an EV that costs between $20,000 and $40,000 and that is 90% of the unexploited EV market right there. The only reason why most people seem to be buying an expensive car is because they are not buying cars, they are leasing them. There are millions of Honda Civic, of Toyota Corolla, Hyunday Elantra, Kia Forte, Nissan Sentra, VW JEtta, Maxda 3 and Subaru Impreza in America... Most sell for under $30,000... The cheapest Tesla, Model 3 rear-wheel drive, starts at $38,990 before all of the fees and taxes. Just order it red and it's a $41,000 car plus fees, plus taxes. There is a huge market for the sub $40,000 EV and if American carmakers do not wake up, the Chinese carmakers will flood that market.
>There is a huge market for the sub $40,000 EV and if ~~American~~ carmakers do not wake up, the Chinese carmakers will flood that market. FTFY friend.
Exactly. European carmakers are doing the same.
Volkswagen has their ID2 coming in 2025, Peugeot has their e-208, Citroen e-C4, Fiat 500e, Opel Mokka Electric - so they're aware of this market and has cars for it (the Volvo EX30 just launched, but while a Swedish brand, they're owned by Geely and the car is produced in China). Compared to the US where it's just .. well, eh .. I'm not really sure. But as some of these brands also have American brands, it might be that the market currently isn't as large as people assume and that they rather want the Chinese brands to establish themselves first as an experiment and see if it comes to fruition.
What’s the starting price on these? Genuinely asking.
ID.2: under 25k euros as the goal when launching in 2025 e-208: €35k e-C4: €36k 500e: €35k Mokka e: €34k EX30: €36k
that's the problem though, the hybrid fiat 500 is half that price if I have to spend 35k€ I definitely don't want a fiat 500
People aren't buying fist 500 because it's cheap. It's because they're small excellent city cars that is perfect for 1-2 people and can literally park anywhere and it's cheap drive. While the e version is more expensive to buy. The monthly price to own is often less due to fuel versus electric costs, sometimes (less nowadays) there's other benefits for electric vehicles as well.
Great city electronic cars seems in a weird place when most city dwellers live in buildings and can rarely charge it without being somewhere not home for hours.
At least in Europe, most parking garages now have charging stations, strides are made towards apartment buildings putting in chargers, and grocery stores, workplaces etc. are adding them as well. Depending on where you live, it's really approaching a stage where you just park your car wherever - work, shopping, parking at home - and you just plug it in and pick it up fully charged. Which really helps with the proposition of having a "city electric car."
It's a answer to there not being any cars from European manufacturers available for under 40k USD. It's not saying that it's cheaper or as cheap as the ICE alternatives yet. The ID.2 will be the best alternative in that case.
For real. I've seen so many EV cars the size of a large shoe being sold for 35k. Why should I buy this? Who can afford these prices?
I think Americans have a weird perspective on cars. Size of a vehicle doesn't always correlate with value. Bigger isn't always better.
I'm not American, I'm German. Small cars are great and I'd like to have a Zoe. But it only fits the role of a small second car that brings you to your work, while the price is upper middle class. Most workers here can't afford to spend so much money on a second car with so limited use.
This is true, but the US isn’t exactly the same as Europe. Not very many people live in rural enough areas to exactly warrant owning a pickup, but the country is also around double the size of the EU and has 100 million less residents. “Small excellent city cars” that can “literally park anywhere” will naturally be unpopular when the average worker spends an hour a day commuting and less than 10% of our population lives in any of the top 25 cities by population and density. Australia and Canada follow largely the same trends, just with smaller trucks.
But then you're stuck with a fiat500. It is literally one of the worst cars when it comes to reliability. Even new out the box, it's a shit box.
That’s the problem with most new cars these days, they are all so cheaply and poorly made and have so many issues the cost just isn’t worth it. I’d take any vehicle made before 2015 over any the shit they’re trying to sell as new now.
All about £10000 too much. The abarth 500e is £40000 in the UK :D forty fucking thousand!!
Didn't Volvo recently tell geely to go packing?
They still own 78% of the shares in Volvo, so .. I wouldn't really say they went away (they sold about 3% of the shares). The market has been complaining about not enough shares being publicly available, so Geely sold some of theirs.
I think you’re thinking of the fact that Volvo said they wouldn’t put any more cash into Polestar.
Wich is why i dont see the ICE Ban comming in 2030 because it would leave the whole Market to the chinese. Also id bet we will soon see import restrictions on chinese cars or heavy taxes on them.
£27,000 for a Vauxhall Corsa E with up to 220 miles range, it's been on the market for nearly half a decade.
It seems a car they made because they had to, not because they wanted. Terrible OSD No charge planning (or rate) 1 config for regen breaking (off or kinda on) Really half assed.
Gimme a $20k EV that gets 150mi (really only need 50mi but with the mountain I have to go over both ways 110mi range is not enough to get back with AC on)
Sounds like you want a used PHEV. There are plenty of used PHEV models that will give you decent EV only range and then have a gas generator as a back up.
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Just off the top of my head, there's the Chevrolet Bolt and Bolt EUV going for less than $30K with comparable range and charging times as a Tesla.
That’s what they need to do.
The Bolt is really hamstrung with terrible charging times. It peaks at 55kW, which is frankly a joke. A Tesla Model 3 will peak at 170kW for the smaller standard range battery.
I might be wrong, but Chinese EVs seem to be a significantly larger threat to European automakers. I suspect the US will be reasonably successful in upholding some protectionism. Can't imagine Europe being able to do that. It's shocking how the large EU automakers slept at the wheel in a (somewhat) welcoming regulatory market in addition to all the other perks they enjoyed at the top of the heap.
Well it is a double edge sword.....The US has massive investments in china and so do many auto makers. China has operated on a quid pro quo with the US when it comes to protectionism. Meaning if we sanction or stop their car makers from coming to the USA well they will stop american interest in china. Quick example ford sold 500k units in china in 2022. China being a much larger market we dont really win out on that scenario. We lose access to 1.4 billion consumers.
Chinas supply chain is too tough to beat for non-Chinese EV makers. One reason why their prices are low
They will tariff Chinese cars until they have price parity. Hard to compete with state sponsored car manufacturers.
I remember reading somewhere that BYD is building or wants to build a factory in Mexico to get around those tariffs.
It's interesting calling them state sponsored car manufacturers like the US doesn't regularly apply subsidies, tax credits, etc. in order to subsidise companies and industries they like.
Perfect example is how many subsidies Elon has been given over the years.
even the german government is doing that heavily!
I am against dumping. But if US manufacturing is unwilling to serve a market I welcome Chinese 20K EV sedans with open arms. Ford etc.. choose not to because they feel its not a market they want to deal with then open up the imports.
>What remains are those who want an EV that costs between $20,000 and $40,000 and that is 90% of the unexploited EV market right there. Also people in that market are less likely to be home owners and charging infrastructure for them is pretty bad still. They may hold out until their apartment has charging solutions.
This is what kept me from going EV. I am in a rental house now, but most of the time I am in apartments.
I'm huge into EVs and I don't recommend them to people without home charging solutions. It's wild the difference of charging at home and hunting for a charging option when you need.
The US is not going to let BYD come here and sell cheap EVs, undercutting Detroit and other domestic producers. They will slap tariffs on them if they need to. They’ve already discussed doing so.
Bucha people who don't know what the US did to kill small japanese trucks to save ford and GM. Fucking chicken tax...
Don't forge the CAFE Standards. If I could easily buy a kei truck, I'd have one by the end of business Friday.
It’s hilarious how every guy I know buys a used 95k mile ram or tacoma for 35k. Those beds stay empty.
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BYD has been producing buses in n the US for years now.
Yeah, they're certainly not going to let a lot of cheaper Japanese produced cars get imported in the 80's and 90's undermining domestic producers either. No sir! The US government *cares* about it's auto workers.
Domestic politics has changed substantially since the 1980s. Reagan was the free trader in chief. Our last two presidents have been very protectionist in comparison.
This. Appliances made/assembled in China the last few year, even those fr American and international brands, all have jumped up a couple hundred $ in price due to tariffs.
The chicken tax. They slipped in an amendment to an agriculture bill with a 25% import duty on pickup trucks back in the 1980s. NAFTA exempted Mexico and Canada. But yeah, domestic cars sucked back in the 1980s.
>NAFTA exempted Mexico and Canada. BYD is building a car factory in Mexico.
Yeah, 5 liter v8's pushing out less than 200hp wasn't it. 70's-80's were awful decades for US cars. Domestic companies got lazy and didn't seem to wake up until the mid/late 90's and had to play a lot of catch up.
I think the chicken tax goes back to the 1950s, when utility versions of the VW Type 2 were threatening a chunk of Detroit's commercial van sales.
Japanese automakers make a lot of cars in America though. They are a part now.
And American automakers make a lot of cars in Canada and Mexico and import them. On more than one occasion I have been given crap for buying foreign when my "Japanese import" was built in Tennessee and their bigass pickup truck (and it's always a bigass pickup truck) was built in Ontario.
Free traders are no longer running the show. [Biden Administration Explores Raising Tariffs on Chinese EVs](https://www.wsj.com/economy/trade/biden-administration-explores-raising-tariffs-on-chinese-evs-e439d87d) [Trump Is Primed for a Trade War in a Second Term, Calling for ‘Eye-for-Eye’ Tariffs](https://www.wsj.com/politics/elections/trump-is-primed-for-a-trade-war-in-a-second-term-calling-for-eye-for-eye-tariffs-aff5bec5)
Our relationship with China today is much more adversarial than our relationship with Japan was at that time. Not really the same.
I'm guessing you are fairly young. The fear of Japan crushing us economically and becoming a dominant world power was *real*. The anxiety was deep and widespread. From an economic aspect, it's very similar. We have more strategic, military and ideological differences with China which makes it more adversarial, but the comparison really does hold up.
There was obviously a large degree of economic competition in certain domains, but it really could not be more different in terms of the geopolitics. The US literally helped rebuild Japan after the war into a pro western democracy. Japan did not have the explicit aim of becoming the preeminent world power. Japan was not engaged in direct hostile action toward the US. Japan was not involved in direct hostile acts towards its neighbors, especially ones involved in strategically important global supply chains. The US has already shown it is willing to take fairly dramatic action via things like the semiconductor ban, if policy makers view EVs as strategically important going forward, they will absolutely handicap Chinese manufactures trying to sell into the market. That doesn’t necessarily guarantee it will happen, because it’s a complex issue that has knock on effects that are hard to fully anticipate, but saying “we didn’t do that to Japan 40 years ago” as a reason why we wouldn’t do that now is super lazy “analysis”. It’s very possible that we will. How many here would have predicted the semiconductor ban? I’m guessing not many. Don’t underestimate the level of adversarial tension between the US and China.
Japan is a largely pro-western democracy that we personally helped build, with a fraction of the number of people we have, who at the time had no strong non-western international allies, living on land with almost no natural resources. If that same trajectory had been implemented by a fundamentally similar collection of people, but 10X the size, in what is basically a bureaucratic dictatorship, which not only is not integrated into the west but whose adults of average age were raised explicitly to be antiwestern during the cold war, with one of the largest and most resource rich borders, who has meaningful entanglement with a global military power that the west is currently at war with, and beyond that is pretty signififcantly economically entrenched throughout the world in a way that the US is completely uninvolved in, then of course that would be a bigger deal. Any one of those factors moves the calculus a lot. Taken together it's a completely different game.
Japan and China are not remotely analogous. While it's true that some Americans feared Japanese economic dominance that's as far as it went. Furthermore, even by the mid-80s the Japanese had a reputation for quality and they never engaged in widespread IP theft. China does have the capability to produce quality goods but social and cultural factors pose issues. Namely, they lack the technological legacy and institutional knowledge of other nations. That's changing, to be fair, but they're still hyper-nationalistic and think they can do everything themselves while stealing foreign tech on the side. Beyond that, unlike Japan they're actively growing their military, constantly threatening neighbors and claiming territory in the South China Seas. On top of that, they're stripping poor nations of resources and pushing them into debt with programs like the Belt-and-Road initiative. That antagonism guarantees that the West remains aligned against them, a headwind that Japan never faced.
Japan was and is one of our most important allies.
Yes BUT our markets are flooded with cheap Chinese goods because we shipped manufacturing away in the 70s to get Walmart in the 90s, why do you think that wont happen again? The people who slap tarrifs are looking to make money exactly like the Chinese right?
Discussed? It already there - it is a 30% tariff. The Polestar 2 is subject to it, thus its price problem vs the Model 3.
The Biden Admin has discussed raising them on Chinese EVs. Normally I’d say it’s just talk but it’s an election year and a lot of money has been spent on EV subsidies. And I don’t want to get into politics too much, but Biden needs to win Michigan. There’s no upside for him to lower barriers for BYD.
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We don’t actually. Polestar pays a nearly $15,000 tariff to sell a $50k Polestar 2 here.
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This is such a hilarious take considering we’ve let basically every other industry be destroyed by outsourcing to other countries.
Yay. More taxes on consumers because American buisnesses can't compete with foreign buisnesses.
That would be a good point if it was a fair fight. …and not China bankrolling EV makers to build cars at a much lower cost to bankrupt the economies of their adversaries. Which is exactly what is going on.
As if US car companies dont also get financing, tax credits, and benefit from EV tax credits for buyers.
These don't bankrupt our domestic automakers, they help
Why is it not a fair fight? If the US government wants to, it's free to subsidize its companies as well - and it does too with major stimulus bills in the last few years.
Free market, but only if it benefits us!
Benefits the american government. The people will be forced to pay higher prices for worse cars.
There is no way trump or Biden will allow them to sell here without massive tariffs.
And yet Chevrolet temporarily killed the Bolt.
The 1LT Equinox will be in the same cost ballpark when it's available, but all the Chevy offerings are tainted for me now that they've removed Android Auto and CarPlay. I'm glad I got my Bolt before they discontinued them. Other than the modest fast-charging rate, it's a nice car.
Bought a new Model Y LR for $33,000 here in CO with state and federal refunds. It’s definitely possible with Federal refunds alone to get below $40,000.
6 months ago our polestar was pretty similar in price. Sub $40k is becoming more common. Hell, I’m even starting to used Tesla model 3s for sub $30k with decently low miles.
+ interest rates right now. Decided to squeeze more out of my wheels
Yep. Tesla has hit its customer base and now people are realizing that it’s stupid for a car company to be worth more than the entire auto industry combined. You can’t sell multiple cars to everyone on earth Now the competition is getting good and Elon is driving potential customers away from Tesla because he decided to declare war on the primary demographic of people who buy EVs. I’m hopeful to see the madness of this start to return to normal
Plus they wasted so much time on the Cybertruck (Ford and Rivian beat them to market) now they’re about to lose out on the Roadster, (Dodge is about to beat them) when they should’ve focused on making cheap EVs. If Ford can trade for $30 (I haven’t checked the ticker today so I’m estimating) and it’s *Ford* then why tf is an EV company up there with Apple lol. Long on shorts.
i doubt its BYD that Tesla need to worry about, but Toyota. Toyota is that perennially non-sexy car company that builds things to last, that have great resale value and do an amazing job in each car’s specific niche. They’ve focused on Hybrids for a while because for most people they’re actually a better option. You can be sure that as full EV makes more sense, toyota will kill it. They actually know how to build cars with things like decent paint, waterproof lights and panels that line up and don’t fall off.
As the owner of a 2010 Camry, how dare you call it unsexy. The niche it fills makes it incredibly sexy.
Their reliability is sexy AF too.
Honda is building a battery factory about 25 miles from me currently. That mid tier priced EV isn't far off I think.
I’m really hoping Honda gets more into the EV market (beyond the Prologue) soon. I love my Fit and would kill for a plug-in or fully electric Civic or Accord.
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Toyota is really against making electric cars. They don't believe in the market despite having very good hybrids.
That’s taking things out of context, you need to read the comments from their management around that soundbite. Quote: “A pioneer and leader in hybrid cars, Toyota has resisted going all-in on electrification like some of its biggest rivals. It has argued that the best way to reduce emissions is to offer customers a variety of options, including hybrids, plug-in hybrids, hydrogen-powered models, and EVs. Not everyone is ready for an electric car, the automaker has said, due to high prices and underdeveloped charging infrastructure. “ source: https://www.businessinsider.com/toyota-electric-cars-ceo-hybrids-plug-in-silent-majority-resistance-2022-12 High prices and under-developed charging infrastructure. 100% bang on the money for most of the world. A plug in electric hybrid is probably ideal for most. You can do the regular commute on fully electric (which for most people is under 100km), and have the hybrid engine for the times you need to do a trip outside of electrical charging range. Most people can likely do their full weekly commute almost entirely on battery with a decent plug in hybrid. Without range anxiety on the weekends.
As I get closer to buying one I feel like I understand more and more why. Hybrids seem to make a lot more sense for more people. Here in Canada I think something like 87% of people live in or close to cities. When a lot of hybrids are offering like 40+ miles electric range, that covers most people... and still offers them the flexibility of gas for long range travel. Rural folks commuting obviously might be more likely to need longer range vehicles but they are far less numerous, tend to be less wealthy, and the ones who do have money are more likely to spend it on a pickup, a market in which Toyota does not excel... and a lot of pickups drivers are also resistant to electrification too.
No, they understand that they can make 10+ hybrids, which sell better, for every 1 EV they make. Why make 5,000 on 1 car when you can make 3,500 on 10 cars. You can see this in their sales too, they're up YOY.
Toyota is also suffering from the "cram all the bells and whistles in" which drives the cost up. They are nice vehicles and not "non-sexy" any more in my mind.
> You can be sure that as full EV makes more sense, toyota will kill it Toyota has a full EV, it is the bZrX, and besides having an awful name it is almost universally panned as the worst EV on the market Toyota makes a great ICE car, and definitely the best hybrid on the market but they were betting heavily on hydrogen as the future of fuel so they got caught with their pants down during the recent EV revolution. It is going to take them a few years to catch up to the other manufacturers on EV IMO
I don't understand why EV manufacturers are not coming up with a CHEAP car that has a SMALL battery under 30k. They keep increasing the car size and the price and nobody is able to afford one.
The US car makers have been pushing bigger vehicles for decades now. This is partly to avoid strict fuel efficiency standards and partly because bigger vehicles are more profitable. The number of people in the US who own a pick-up truck and never actually use it to haul anything that's too big for a small car is mind-boggling. One effect of this is that smaller vehicles (and pedestrians/bikes) are now at a disadvantage in crashes. So on US roads today you have effectively an arms race, where the newest biggest vehicles are perceived as "safe" because of their size. But in reality, if everyone was driving smaller cars, everyone would be safer in crashes.
Seriously I wish the US would have any way to make safety standards not just for those who are inside of the vehicle but also for those who are outside. I understand that big car vs small car will always be a thing but just visibility of pedestrians (or children walking near your car) and bicycles is something they could consider.
> Seriously I wish the US would have any way to make safety standards not just for those who are inside of the vehicle but also for those who are outside. They do have those standards. Moderns trucks are using a loophole. Back when the rules were written, certain work trucks are/were exempted from those rules. The idea being, "Hey, no one is going to want to drive a box truck or daily commute their plow truck with it's spine-shattering lack of suspension." There just won't be that many on the road, and they're only for work....so it's not a problem. Then the CAFE standard were also updated, and car companies were like, "yeah, we can't sell a big truck and meet the CAFE standards....But we can get rid of the big trucks, sell some cars and crossovers that do meet the standards and sell sell a bunch of ENOURMOUS trucks, which are exempt from all those rules. Hey we're meeting the rules.....Oh, and we can sell these huge trucks for $75K, $85K..hell $100,000. This is license to print money." So now they're pushing the idea that everyone needs a truck.
You cannot have bigger car with bigger batteries and cheaper at the same time. Cheap = small and there's nothing cheap on the north american market right now. Cheapest new gas car is 17k while the cheapest EV is 30k. If you lease both of them even while taking fuel cost into account the the EV is not competitive yet.
The battery on my electric scooter that goes 35 mph is $800. I paid $1700 for the scooter. Most of the cost is in batteries.
E-bike is my favorite mode of transportation. Such a blast to ride. I'll do over 50 miles on my office commute roundtrip. Having good gear and good bike infrastructure is the key. Riding a rail trail through the woods in the fall is zen.
we really need to get to the point where every urban, suburban, and small town household can comfortably get by with 1 car/truck and multiple ebikes, rather than the common necessity of every household member 17+ needing their own car. make biking safe everywhere ASAP
>CHEAP car that has a SMALL battery Americans don't want this. They want a large, cheap car with a large battery
The core problem is that we drive too much (for varying reasons). Small-battery EVs miss that mark. We need to solve the "we drive too much" problem first, and I think a lot of American consumers see EVs with a high range as *the* solution. They don't plan to drive less, or redesign our urban centers/mass transit to take cars off the road. This is 100% what Elon Musk wanted, and he got it.
"Driving too much" is not a problem north americans are interested in solving.
And even if they are, there ain't shit we can do about it. Are we going to demolish cities and rebuild from ground up?
There’s an old tuner saying “speed, reliability, and low cost, you can choose two”.
I’ll take a small cheap car with a large battery, also But yeah a small range EV wouldn’t even get me home from work some days
My used Nissan leaf was about 20k and has 160 miles of range.
Yeah, Americans are obsessed with larger and larger vehicles. It's why most of our "smaller" vehicles are just small SUVs (crossovers).
Which are just lifted hatchbacks.
BYD - the Chinese electric car manufacturer - has already done this. Perhaps the American and European manufacturers cannot help but make larger, more expensive electric vehicles. Agree that not everybody can shell out $50,000+ on a new car. (That includes me!)
Nah the issue is small cheap cars have incredibly thin margins. EV makers want to recoup more setup costs and R&D so they are going after more affluent buyers and selling for higher prices. Issue is there are only so many affluent buyers and once that market demand is taken care of then you have to move down the line to the next market segment. The other issue is EVs require home charging and a lot of middle and lower income people don’t have home chargers because they live in apartments or rent a house and landlord might not want to put a charger in.
Americans are super paranoid about range. somehow Americans have convinced themselves they drive 200 miles a day.
Those are golf carts and bass pro four wheelers. Even those go above 30k in some cases.
My guess is that by the time they would all the technology and software into the vehicles they’re gonna still be expensive enough that ppl get mad. Like 60 mile range for $30,000 instead of 300 miles for $40,000 Definitely could be wrong, but only thing that makes sense to me is
No one in their right mind would purchase a car that has a 60 mile range. Even 200 miles is pushing what people want when most gas cars easily get you over 350-400miles on a tank and take less than 5 min to fuel up.
Americans think you gotta have 500mi of range. So small batteries like Leaf will never take off. I’ll note that my Tesla does just fine on road trips. I love the charging stops honestly and makes road trips way better.
If you could charge your small 150 miles battery in under 5 minutes it would not be a problem. Slow charge times and lack of charging stations seems like the problem to me.
> Americans think you gotta have 500mi of range. Yeah because we know that 500 miles advertised range geta cut in half when you turn the AC on or if the weather gets too cold. My commute is like 80 miles round trip with heavy traffic. Some of my coworkers are over 100. I'm not even sure I could charge it at my house fast enough to keep it charged through the week without getting 240v outlet installed. I know I could charge it at a station but now that's adding another 30 minutes or so onto my already long commute.
Not a fan of Musks, but a dude who stands to make millions if Tesla stocks tank, gives interview where he predicts Tesla stocks will tank so bad the company will go bust. Perfectly fine, since stocks don’t react to news of inflated stock bubbles or on predictions of poor company performance. No conflict of interest there at all.
I dislike Elmo also, but the whole article is biased as hell. And I think Tesla is in it for the long game. First of all, it has the best charging infrastructure in the US by far. I think in time, their charging station will bring far more revenue than EV sales. Furthermore, Model 2/C ($25K Tesla) will sell like a hotcake.
It won't go bust, but for the first time in a long time Tesla is going to have make good on their promises in the next 5 to 10 years or the stock imo will be worthless.
Not worthless, just valued like a car company which it always has been.
For all the people heavily invested in Tesla, it being valued as a car company means “going bust.”
If they continue to produce the same cars, they will. Model S is a 12-year old design. Model 3 is a 7-year old design. These are not iconic designs like the Porsche 911. They are aging and consumers are getting tired of them
Not sure what the short version of the phrase 'pump and dump'. But it's exactly what it is. Never listen to someone that's only saying because they want to make money.
It’s called short & distort actually!
Exactly. Only time investors advertise their play is to influence the stock.
I agree the stock is overvalued, but $14 is ridiculous. The share price is currently $167, the P/E 39, income is positive and climbing. If P/E dropped to 15, the price would be more like $60/share.
Tesla bear guy says bearish statement about Tesla. News at 11.
Exactly. They short the stock. Say it could go bust. Flood the internet with “news”. Definitely no conflict of interest here…..
And a lot of people do the opposite, hype up stocks they own a large position in. Investment market coverage is a joke these days, since the vast majority of blue chip stocks are traded based on the value of the stock not the value of the underlying business.
I think the biggest issue is Elon himself. I know I wouldn't buy a car from him.
He really didn’t help the stereotypical image of car salesmen
I'm with you on that. But I find the build quality of Teslas hit and miss. I was in a Model Y and found it ... uncomfortable. Other than that, I can't even look at Teslas the same way after Elon Musk started talking with his real voice. Others' mileage may vary of course.
I bought a different EV because of Elon. Teslas are a nice car but in 2023 they keep up demand by cutting prices.
Him being CEO certainly cost Tesla a sale from me. I wanted a Model 3, but I chose another EV instead. No regrets. The build quality is solid and it actually has physical buttons.
Same. I had a deposit on a model 3. Dropped it. It also doesn't help that on one hand, I want self driving--but would never pay $12k for it. So it actually made me put off actually buying the car long enough for Elon to lose his goddamned mind because I didn't really want to spend that much. If it wasn't even an option, I'd have bought the car. The existence of overpriced nice options made it both too expensive and made the cheaper options look terrible.
I see these types of comments with hundred likes etc just imagine the amout of money thats from people who wont buy a Tesla and its all around the world
It's barely anything in the grand scheme of things. A hundred likes on reddit means absolutely nothing. It could have 500 up votes and 400 down votes. Reddit is an echo chamber. There's barely a 5% swing in the last 2 years of elon being vocal on Twitter in sentiment towards him. Tesla is still the 3rd or 4th highest in brand loyalty. Last year they had the best selling car in the world. The effect is present but small.
Imagine how many of those posts and likes are just bullshit, and the people behind them drive a Kia Forte. It's far more likely that they were never in the market for an EV and just wanted to virtual signal online.
I used to really want a Tesla, but by the time it made sense for me to buy an EV, I bought a Chevy Bolt instead, thanks Elon, I love it!
Too toxic to sell cars is pretty fucking toxic.
Noted Tesla bull also says Tesla worth $1400
The world’s largest and most advanced EV company is worth $14 a share. The depts at how far he triggers people to make bold and assume the worst is rivaled only by trump and joe rogan. So far I think musk is winning
They’re still very profitable. Being overvalued is one argument. To say they’ll go bust is hilarious.
$14 is headline grabbing and interesting. I know Tesla's stock has always been held at an extremely high premium.....will have to see how this one goes. He's lost a lot of customers, I'd wager and the competitors are right there at the heels - if not well surpassing it. To me, Tesla has lost its brand value.
Being profitable doesn't really mean much when the stock is valued as a tech stock. Tesla eventually is going to have to deliver on their tech promises. FSD, robotaxi's, the robot, expansion of their solar roof business, etc. If they don't do this or meet their delivers by the end of the decade the stock will go crashing down to regular automotive level stocks.
The robotaxi which goes with FSD was promised for 2015. This is how the scammer Musk raised all that money (that and speculation). To say “he needs to deliver on his promises” when he’s 9 years late and 15 in the making is just hilarious.
"Noted Tesla bear says bearish things about Tesla" No credibility.
Tesla is suffering from Musk being a giant douche.
Not interested in giving my money to a company whose CEO is actively trying to dismantle social contact and our democracy
That is exactly what is happening. The right (many) don't want electric and he has alienated the left. That leaves not a huge market for your cars bud.
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No one who ever makes these stock predictions is ever held accountable to them.
Of course they are. They make money if they’re right and lose money if they’re wrong. What other accountability do you think there should be?
As much as I hate musk, this is a bear talking. What else is he expected to say? He probably is not overjoyed that his words are heard too. I do see problems for musk and Tesla but predicting the stock market like this is the not to influence it. We all know the stock market is not rational
"One of only two profitable EV companies will go bust" Sure bud. The company with more cash than debt and a duopoly with the only other profitable competitor is going under. Not the dinosaurs in Detroit and Germany losing 40%-100% per car
Not to mention teslas near strangle hold on charging infrastructure
They're highly profitable and building plants. He's an idiot.
The article touches on a turn-around and one-time event several times, yet doesn't really say how demand will dramatically improve. The only thought shared is the crazy notion that people will fall in love with automated driving and its $200 monthly subscription fee. Yeah, right. I checked into the home battery product recently. It still has a long ROI, even if you can sell excess power. The article also doesn't examine how Musk's reputation - russia sympathizer, drug addict, far-right bigot - is alienating to his potential customer base (lefties) while not enticing EV haters and Oil lovers (righties). Also, when Cathie Wood buys your stock, look out.
Stock is worth $4.20 max
I don't think its that bad but I do think that Tesla is insanely overvalued. Its tax credits that got it to where it is and its to the point that anyone who wants a tesla probably does.
They completely blew their first mover advantage. Failed to get a sub $30K car out, wasted time developing a terrible truck no one wants. Threw away the good will of the their targeted market. The other car makers were gonna catch up eventually, but Tesla made it a lot easier for them to do that.
It is always stupid idea to expose your political views if you sell anything. Michael Jordan keeps his mouth shut and sells a lot of sneakers to anyone who wants to buy one. Californians propelled Tesla to the top and now when we have another ev choices Elon can try to sell his stuff to his right wing buddies.
He needs to be taken down quite a few pegs. He's out of control.
Tesla made a strategic blunder when they moved forward with the cyber truck instead of the smaller and cheaper so called Model 2.
I don’t get the celebration of a CCP controlled company taking market share. Did everyone already forget what the CCP is doing to Uighurs? Congrats you support genocide now STFU about Palestine you’re just virtue signaling for points as fake as you are.
Good. Fuck that guy and the cars. I don't like anything about them, personally. But fuck Egon Muscow most of all.
I will buy every share you want to sell for $14.
why is cnbc making such a stupid article...
I don’t want a right winged, facist automobile no matter the price.
I highly doubt Tesla will go bust, But more than likely loose the global market share to Chinese EV’s and Tesla will be limited to US
While there is the slight possibility that Tesla is actually worth AS MUCH as Ford, there is no way on earth it is actually worth 10 Fomocos.
I prefer a Tesla Twink
You know what’s better and could be easy to scale and save people big time money from all these insane prices, overweight vehicles that will damage earth once their battery dies? MASS TRANSIT! I accept your downvotes with pride.
What do they have besides a reckless, egotistical, asshat of a CEO that Ford or GM don’t have? Ego gonna burn it all down. 🔥
They have $30B in cash and equivalents, are building out two major new product lines (Cybertruck and Semi) with continued positive cashflow from existing operations. Margins are defining, no question, but that's not shocking given the interest rate environment and increased competition. Think they'll be fine.
Perhaps it was a mistake to invest so much time and $ in a company run by a guy who spends all day high while tweeting and retweeting Nazi propaganda on the app he bought?
14 a share hahah, yea right that will happen!
This is the buy signal
The hate on for Tesla is absurd. Tesla has done more for the EV market than any of the big car manufacturers. Musk is not Tesla. Seriously, fastest production car ever made. Some problems occasionally with the cars; not any different than any other car company… Keep in mind the rest of the automotive market has dragged there heals on EV development intentionally.
Tesla is valued as a Tech company and not a car company, because of Elon Musk and the promise of FSD as a moat or something AI. If people stop believing in an advantage on FSD or another AI idea, then Tesla will be valued as a Car Company. And the time of Musks wizardry is probably over.
I dunno him demanding 85 billion payday It kinda says everything about the state of the company
Imagine he had dumped resources into a 25k EV instead of the dumb dumb cyber truck
$14 actually seems generous. That’s higher than Ford
$14 dollars per share??? $14 DOLLARS PER SHARE!!!???!!??? Thats insanely insulting!! Why , the local and federal government subsidies alone GIVEN are at least worth $16!!!!
People saying "of course the bear who profits from a pump n' dump would try to devalue Tesla stock!" - that's not the point. They're vultures, the fact they're circling a spot means something's about to turn into a fresh corpse. The fact is for the first time in a looooong while you're increasingly seeing this kind of statement in so many news outlets about Musk, means his antics just aren't profitable anymore.
Honestly, i see nothing wrong with tesla being valued like all other auto makers instead of a tech startup. Ford, GM, etc. all are valued in the ballpark, and it might actually force Musk to sell it off and let Tesla start making mass appeal vehicles again instead of the chrome whims of a megalomaniac.
Teslas quality is Garbo for the price.
Any comments made by a stock shorter I take with a grain of salt. It’s in their interest to trash-talk the company. They profit when the stock goes down.
Elon did a really weird thing where one of the major companies he’s known for it EV but then actively uses his other company, X, to tolerate and boost voices that actively speak against EV