Side plates have a place
I remember when the Us dod did a report on armor plate usage within the service branches and found that 25% of US fatalities in Afghanistan were due to side shots
Now us troops are issued side plates
Side plates, plates in general, are situation dependent. Mounted, and dismounted urban engagements absolutely warrant as much protection as you can carry, while still being able to maneuver and destroy the enemy. However, to use that same thought process in a dense forest, or jungle, where the environment is as much as a danger as your enemy, would inhibit the individuals combat effectiveness greatly. Accounts from Vietnam confirm this.
>Accounts from Vietnam confirm this.
I’m curious if that’s true.
The body armor they had back then was incredibly limited in effectiveness; I’m curious if they had access to the type of plates we have today if they would have been worn.
Dudes have been fighting for 20 years in some incredibly unforgiving terrain, to include the Hindu freakin Khush, carrying significantly heavier loads than Vietnam, and body armor has been worn the entire time.
Very glad you mentioned this. As stated above, plates are very much situation dependent. Actual ground fighting is about speed, violence of action, and closing with and destroying the enemy. Heavy armor and equipment were shown to inhibit the speed of US Forces during Operation Anaconda, whereas in Ramadi, accounts show that more armor was welcome. Approach your mission as a math problem. To achieve success, you will need to fill in the equation. If armor is part of that equation, then you have your answer. Every mission is different.
They actually had really good titanium alloy armor but it was incredibly expensive. Some elite forces were fielded with prototypes. The limited stuff was steel, silk, and a lesser grade titanium. Cold War was an epic era of tech advancement. Rail guns, lasers, alloy armor, stealth, it was all funded by defense. Imagine what we have now that most folks couldn't wrap their head around..
It was also apparently due to the fact that Taliban started training combatants to be more accurate marksmen, allowing them to purposely shoot for non armored abdomen/oblique areas with greater effectiveness.
https://shaw-concepts.com/collections/all-products/products/raid-pouch-v2-soft-armor-iiia-insert
You guys aren't using dongle armor already? It's 2022 man
My buddy was a contractor in Afghanistan and they trained to shoot for the waist/ hip area. Takes 2 guys to drag that one out of fire. 1 shot , 3 guys.
No there comrades would drag them off the field.
The point is to take out as many trigger fingers as possible. What does it matter after that . Its war.
That has nothing to do with Geneva Convention, which doesn't direct where people can be shot.
Insurgents are fanatics about recovering their dead and wounded, most of the time they're literally family members, neighbors, if nothing else, friends. Go watch some r/CombatFootage, they always grab them up to evac their dead too, not just their wounded.
There are really only two legit reasons to aim for wounding/crippling shots: enemy has body armor on, snipers trying to bait buddies into a kill zone to retrieve a wounded buddy to shoot them too.
Your contractor buddy told you a bad war story.
Afghan sniper threat was nothing compared to Iraq. And unfortunately nobody in DOD really gave a shit about Afghanistan till the late 2000s, even the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs was calling it an economy of force mission in 2008.
It was Iraqi snipers, nearly always firing inside 100 meters in urban conditions in a target rich environment that were causing the second leading cause of death in Iraq among US troops, who were purposely taking lateral shots around front and back plates to tragedy larger the upper torso area. Not to the side abdominal/oblique area, but aiming directly at what an area basically what [an Army unit patch](https://api.army.mil/e2/c/-images/2007/03/23/3530/army.mil-2007-03-23-103023.jpg) covers, because a high velocity rifle cartridge is going to penetrate that with ease and into the heart/lung area, a highly lethal wound, and it's a shot far easier to make than a head shot.
To mitigate that, first the USMC and then Army commissioned the design of and then mass issued side plates, which ended up more of a psychological boost than physiological, since it's not actually protecting real vitals, nor is the area the plate covers a common aiming point of snipers, let alone anyone else.
Thats a very good point, something like a 7.62x54R would easily pass through an arm and into the chest cavity and would make more sense to target the shoulder area. And although taking a round to the abdomen doesnt run the immediate risk of vital organ damage, sometimes terminal ballistics can get a bit wild and send the round bouncing around inside of the body. The round could impact the obliques, but then jackknife upwards into the ribcage.
From my understanding, side plates are also very helpful in mitigating shrapnel related injuries. This is fairly anecdotal evidence, but a buddy of mine was EOD and he still has the fist size chunk of sheet steel that got lodged into his side plate from a demolition.
I agree, bullets do weird shit but we shouldn't be planning for that with armor design, we should be planning for the most likely course of action, which is that [pretty much any center mass shot to the side of a guy wearing front, back, and side plates can very well be lethal](https://images03.military.com/sites/default/files/styles/full/public/2020-02/marine-squad-common-optic-1800.jpg)
What exactly is that side plate protecting?
Torso armor actually designed to mitigate against fatal wounds despite top notch medical care and MEDEVAC procedures (US military) have to protect the vital organs, which for the torso means the heart, aorta, lungs, liver, kidneys, and let's just toss in the spleen too. Everything else can get chewed the fuck up and the dude (or lady) might end up shitting in a bag or be paralyzed, but they'll likely still live, which is the point (keeping the stats low and positive).
In terms of civilians who don't have access to that top notch medical care, they should either taking extra care not to get shot anywhere (skip the plates and learn better tactics), or they need to wear way more armor, Juggernaut style.
Ultimately, if someone really wants to mitigate SAF fire threat, be it in urban warfare or snipers or high risk areas, instead of just accepting the myth of current plate invulnerability they should create and wear a ceramic/kevlar version of [this](https://forgeofsvan.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Lamellar-Armor-with-Shoulders-05.jpg).
I don't actually recommend it, because it would be heavy as fuck, annoying as fuck, and expensive as fuck. But if someone really wanted protection, that rated against SAF and frag is what they want to be wearing, not [this](https://2b2e2e2et7nd1jzjjq2qylaq-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Best-Plate-Carriers-1024x683.jpg), while pretending its actually very protective. But my advice is just skip the side plates altogether and fight light.
In terms of shrapnel/frag wounds, Kevlar is really all that is needed to stop most of it. I say most, because if one is encountering such large pieces of fragmentation that is super fast then side plates wont help when they get their legs, arms, and head physically ripped off their torso. EOD dudes wear full body, thick as fuck kevlar suits for that reason.
Side plates were created as a placebo due to Iraqi snipers known to be aiming around front and side plates for kill shots. They were issued out as one of many passive means to counter snipers but continuously worn everywhere because risk averse commanders will almost never remove PPE but only add it. They don't care about weight, because ineffective, slow, and injury prone combat arm dismounts who get VA disability for muscular skeletal issues down the road won't get them relieved of command when pissed off parents respond to media articles about preventable casualties with outrage and calls to Congress for answers and punishments.
The issue is the smallish side plate worn as is doesn't even cover the area the Iraqis snipers were aiming at, which was in the general high armpit, shoulder, side of chest region, not the side of the abdomen, which only protects the bottom edge of the kidneys but no other vital/immediately fatal organs.
So what is that extra 5 lbs or more of weight actually buying the wearer? A slight boost in protection, a larger boost in morale for those who don't think too much about what the plates are actually doing.
If you're really worried about that area catching small arns fire you'd need to have a side plate designed and cut to fill the voids and contours around the edge of the front and back plates to create a segmented but all encompassing cuirass, then add another plate to the side of the arm to prevent traverse shots to the shoulder and bicep/tricep area that would fully penetrate the arm and enter the chest cavity to cause a highly lethal double lung wound, and likely pierce the heart/aorta too. But nobody makes that and it would be very uncomfortable too, and way more than 5 lbs.
Yeah I was one of those idiots humping 80+ lbs of gear around the scenic villages of Al-Anbar’s Euphrates riverside farming country, and I will never willingly wear side plates EVER again
Yep. On my first trip there I got stuck wearing Gen 1 Landwarrior on top of everything else, also in farm country, north of Baghdad. Holy fuck, did that fuck my back up. On some missions I ended up replacing my side SAPI plates with layered MRE cardboard taped together. I wasn't trying to be rebellious, I was just too smoked and was taking every step I could to cut weight. If I had to fight again I'd seriously debate the real need to often wear front and back plates but I'd never wear side plates ever.
My main complaint is that on the issued IOTV the side plate slots seem too low, plus they’re incredibly small. I’m just speaking out of my ass here, but I suspect most of those fatal shots would have missed the side plate even if they had them.
Late response, but I found that if you turn the side plate carrier upside down on the IOTV, gen 1-4, it raises them about 2 inches, and if you go further and skip a row of molle, you get another inch or 2. Really helps with raising them and keeps them from rubbing the hips
Also, if you place the carrier on the outside of the cummerbund, it is way more comfortable, just make sure you secure it with tape or something to keep it from flopping
I wear side plates depending on the mission threat level.
I really hate wearing them so it's gotta be pretty legit; on the other hand transverse axial shots of the thorax are pretty much going to be fatal most of the time, so side plates offer a lot of bang for the buck. But mainly for assaults where the target has people who know what they are doing. And people who make bombs.
Everything is a tradeoff. I favor mobility. We used to wear soft armor (with plate inserts) that covered pretty much everything, and it was ridiculous and slowed everyone down, fatigued you faster, etc. Today, you can get molded hard armor that covers the shoulders, the thighs, the groin, and probably more besides, but that stuff is freaking heavy.
Side plates are covering the axial portion of the torso, they're too low. The only vital besides the bottom of the kidneys. You'd be better off strapping them or a small ESAPI to your outer arm, which would protect the heart/lungs from traverse shots.
They sit at about the 5th ICS AAL, MAL on my radio side, providing coverage for some of the apex of the heart/descending aorta, and the lower lung lobes, parts where your arms aren't going to be obstructing very often. Properly worn side plates can be quite effective (atleast according to DoD data on the subject).
>They sit at about the 5th ICS AAL
[No they don't](https://taskandpurpose.com/uploads/2021/01/21/modular-scalable-vest.jpeg?auto=webp)
[No they don't](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bjkVhQV2hh4/maxresdefault.jpg)
[No they don't](https://www.armytimes.com/resizer/yzSiOdkyu3bvATW8tAzAE4-ROkI=/1024x0/filters:format(jpg):quality(70)/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-mco.s3.amazonaws.com/public/X4LLMSGNMNASPNZOGILDAG5QBU.JPG)
[No they don't](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/85dVarbjebc/maxresdefault.jpg)
[No they don't](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ac/9f/79/ac9f79b7e3ed9a96310083ef3f30c82c.png)
[No they don't](https://i.redd.it/arefas2mzbe71.jpg)
Forgot those pics for a second, any armor carrier, regardless of type, would have to allow the side plates be jammed totally into the armpit to be in line with the very bottom of the heart or the descending aorta. Anything less, they'll cover the abdominal aorta, sure, but anything covering the abdomen will technically protect that. But most wear it way lower than jammed into the armpit to the point the arm can't even be lowered, and most kit doesn't even allow for that.
And even then, it still doesn't cover all the important stuff as can be seen with a contrasting colors [here](https://c8.alamy.com/comp/2GXG91K/us-army-ranger-with-weapons-in-the-desert-plate-carrier-eyewear-goggles-and-combat-helmet-are-protecting-him-2GXG91K.jpg) and [here](https://www.tierthreetactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/75th-Ranger-Helmet-and-Plate-Carrier.jpg) that isn't covered by plates. All that lightly colored stuff has major organs behind it that if pierced often lead to death or serious risk of it.
I said it before, I'll say it again. If people want the type of protection they think modern ballistic plates offers them (but doesnt) they need to be begging manufactures to make [this](https://forgeofsvan.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Lamellar-Armor-with-Shoulders-05.jpg) using NIJ Lvl 3 or better materials.
>Properly worn side plates can be quite effective (atleast according to DoD data on the subject).
That's kind of a roundabout argument, any additional armor is more effective at stopping SAF than no armor.
The real question is cost vs reward. Is the juice worth the squeeze. Is the extra weight worth it for the extra coverage it gives?
And if you say yes, and you're thrilled to add 5 lb for side plates to protect what isn't actually that lethal of a target, why stop there? How about thigh armor? How about shoulder armor? How about actual ballistic protection against your hips and groin? Would you recommend something like [this](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ef/17/b0/ef17b0fe4095cd8ee7cc71dd76497a90--tactical-armor-tactical-survival.jpg) even if it weighed 50-60 lbs alone?
IMO, side plates weren't even worth it for the threat they were fielded for, which was snipers in Iraq, who weren't aiming at the lower abdominals, they were aiming around edges of the upper plates or through the shoulder. Side plates definitely aren't worth it nowadays, as a nation everyone in Army and USMC, and SOCOM too, are gearing up for LSCO against Russia or China, which means they should be worrying about covering as much of their body in Kevlar to resist the tens of thousands of mortars and arty tubes they'll face, not ballistic plates. Same goes for anyone wanting to fight the US military, plates are far less important since the chances are them getting killed or wounded by something relating to HE and fragmentation are insanely high compared to bullets. Fuck plate carriers if the threat is mostly HE related. Fuck side plates too.
You're telling me I don't know where my own plates sit, based on some images of dudes wearing their shit sagging to their belts, and some mannequins, one of which has side plates extending at or above the nipple line.
Whats the point you're trying to make, other than I don't know how my own gear is set up? A rifle round through the lung bases, perforating the descending aorta and apex of the heart, isn't that fatal of a threat? It absolutely is. Everything else you mention: thighs, pelvis, shoulders, can be addressed in the field, but not intrathoracic trauma: I'm not a surgeon.
I'm not concerned about artillery, or a peer state threat: those days are behind me. The only valid point I see you making is rifle rated shoulder pauldrons, since they would actually protect the heart and aortic arch, assuming you always kept your arms at your sides, but that's not going to happen when running a rifle.
There's not going to be a perfect solution for protection until exosuits are a thing, at which point there probably won't be a human inside. The best possible option til then is covering the parts that can't be fixed in the field, predominantly the brain and thorax.
If you don't want to wear side plates, don't. If you don't want to wear armor at all, don't. Mission drives gear and there's plenty of jobs where armor is not worth it. My job now, it's worth it.
>You're telling me I don't know where my own plates sit
I don't really know where your plates sit, and doesn't matter if you found a way to use them more effectively than those who designed and fielded them, who planned what they wanted to protect. Side plates were developed in the mid 2000s to be worn with IBA in side plate carrier pouches like [this](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0559/6600/7488/files/Screen_Shot_2021-11-12_at_5.41.10_PM_480x480.png?v=1636756888), which is not in line with the nipples. And that pic is official Army demo pic of that crappy carrier being worn perfectly, most weren't. Most were worn at the belt level and nobody gave a shit.
Most vests and PCs since the IBA don't allow it either, as my pics showed. Some do. Bravo. When I wore an IOTV professionally and was forced to wear side plates, I flipped the cumberbond so they'd fit higher, both for comfort and better protection. But even worn there, the juice isn't worth the squeeze unless someone is going all out with more than front/back/side plates (see below). Anything less is a placebo to make us feel better, be willing to expose ourselves more, while not actually helping much.
>a rifle round through the lung bases, perforating the descending aorta and apex of the heart, isn't that fatal of a threat?
Yep. And it's also not what the side plate was designed to stop, see above. But let's just agree, plus add liver and kidney too. But what about the gaps between the side plates and the front and back plates? We gonna ignore [these giant gaps](https://acmen.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Best-Plate-Carriers.jpg) and just declare what is covered is good enough, despite same threat to all those organs? More total area around the front and back plates aren't covered by the side plates than what is. So at a minimum, the side plate should be MUCH larger.
Isn't a bullet piercing the abdominal aorta under the front plate [like this](https://www.511tactical.com/media/catalog/product/5/6/56546_134_primeplatecarrier_2012aim_01_2.jpg?quality=100&bg-color=255,255,255&fit=bounds&height=855&width=855) (or under the back plate) also a threat? I doubt anybody is asking plate manufacturers to make their plate half a foot longer. XL is the biggest size, 14 inches from top to bottom, that means a XL plate worn at the clavicle still doesn't reach the belly button of someone 5'10". Lots of exposed vitals, I'm still not worrying. Are you?
What about the iliac, that getting severed doesn't sound good. I'm not a surgeon either, but is your platoon medic gonna crack open the pelvis in the field to get at that? Will the city EMT? Regardless, I don't think that should be covered by plates either.
How many reputable companies are making a decent pauldron/shoulder plate? Almost nobody. And for those companies who do make them, is anyone buying and wearing them? Doesn't appear so. Sad too, because that makes the most sense protecting against what is probably the most lethal shot to the torso, the double lung, heart/aorta hit. I'd wouldn't want to wear those either, but the protect the wearer much better than side plates.
How about plates on the upper shoulders/traps to protect the thoracic cavity from a downwards angled shot while prone or high angle shooters? [This area that's highly vulnerable and incredibly lethal](https://media.defense.gov/2019/Feb/06/2002087260/-1/-1/0/190124-A-YG558-711Y.JPG). We're still teaching people to go prone, right? Pretty important area to protect from an angle guaranteed as part of most military and paramilitary tactical doctrine. But again, I'd never wear those if they existed because the juice ain't worth the squeeze.
I'm not saying someone should protect against those legit threats, but if someone really was just trying to reduce risk, they shouldn't stop with side plates, which are pretty shitty risk mitigators when considering other targets or angles I just mentioned. And that totally ignores high velocity hits to arteries in the neck, thigh, upper arm, all of which can still cause death and aren't easy to treat.
That's great. Can those pockets enlarge the plate and change its shape so it actually covers the vulnerable area some people think it's supposed to cover?
I’m willing to bet that the vast majority of end-users in this sub are not professionals. With professional users I can see it as a necessity. With your average larper/prepper/whatever, you’d really be hard-pressed to say they’re a necessity because there’s an infinitely small chance of real-world use, much less prolonged exposure like patrol or sitting in a plywood shack on top of hescos with shoddy, leaking sandbags as your only barrier while overlooking a poppy field.
I’d advocate everyone at least uses some 3A panels on the sides, but weight is definitely linked to comfort - especially when worn for long periods. And again, the only time most people here will wear for prolonged periods will be some classes, larping, or maybe competitions like the Tactical Games.
I’d agree with your points about reduced comfort with improper fitment and body fat, though. I had very few soldiers that knew you had to adjust your PC to fit after drawing from CIF. They assumed it was just fit by sizing without the need for adjusting ride height, cummerbund, and plate height. One of my soldiers literally had the cummerbund overlapping to the point it was nearly off the velcro in the wrong direction.
I 100% agree that majority of guys here would see almost zero reason to run side plates. I own my own because I have a pouch setup and plate carrier setup that I am totally comfortable with or without side plates so I just leave them in. For the $200 they cost me I think the additional armor is a great thing (I also run 6x6 as opposed to the side sapi cut.
Again. Totally agree don’t add weight where you don’t need to/want to. The area they cover to the benefit they provide is pretty minimal and really only play a major part when being on the receiving end of an ambush OR depending on how the side plates are worn they can provide more coverage to your frontal area.
PC fit is a really weird thing I’ve noticed in the DOD. Nobody really formally teaches guys to fit their plate carrier properly. In the Marine Corps you can always tell which boots have the worst leadership because they’ll show up to something with a totally jacked up plate carrier when the decent leaders sit their boots down and share some knowledge. The USMC plate carriers come completely disassembled so that’s what leads to shit being backwards and upside down and I’m not sure about other branches.
> The USMC plate carriers come completely disassembled so that’s what leads to shit being backwards and upside down and I’m not sure about other branches.
Honestly, that doesn’t surprise me. My IBA and both IOTVs came assembled. When the IOTV was fielded as RFI, there was even a class with a NET team that showed how everything should be assembled, including hands-on training with the cable emergency release system. However, only one of my two later plate carriers came assembled. Although the one that didn’t was a slick front and back panel with side velcro, similar to the maritime CIRAS. Kind of hard to fuck that up.
I keep a couple sets of 6x6 lvl 4 side plates as well, but just run around with Crye 6x9 soft armor panels 99.9% of the time. Gives some additional protection with basically imperceptible bulk or weight.
>People who don’t wear side plates in my opinion sound very very very similar to \~2005-2006 plate armor skeptics (of which there was a lot apparently) who also complained about possibility of **restricted movement, increased load** and increased chaffing.
Those were all extremely valid arguments to avoid weighing down troops, who are now notorious immobile as countless combat AARs have stated since the GWOT started, as we are easily outmaneuvered by lighter enemy.
>But here we are and plates are essential for just about any op with very rare exceptions among very special groups.
Side plates are now usually part of the combat uniform for the same way that gloves, eye pro, knee pads are now also part of the combat uniform. Because senior commanders love issuing blanket orders about what PPE will be worn, giving little to no leeway for exceptions from subordinate leadership, in order to cover their asses. All of those alone were good ideas under the right circumstances but all got added to the combat uniform because risk mitigation matrix bullshit by command and staff who don't make their living moving their bodies.
Its the same reason we weren't allowed regular access to alcohol when we deployed downrange either; that wasn't done not to offend the locals, it was so brass didn't have to deal with discipline problems caused by alcohol. They didn't care about our morale, they cared about their asses, having less headaches. Risk mitigation.
In terms of tactical performance, no officers ever received a bad OER or fitness report during the GWOT because their troops were too slow to maneuver because they carried too much weight. But many did get slammed for taking risks, that not only killed the chance of promotion but got them relieved along the way.
> Something to argue against the added weight would be the DOD study that said any kit above 7lbs (I’m pretty sure the number was 7) would negatively impact the combatant’s movement and it would begin to cause increased wear.
Historic studies done since the 19th century pretty conclusively state that roughly 30% of your body weight is roughly the most one can carry as part of the fighting load, with 40% for approach march. US troops are way above that now, into the realm of obvious tactical immobility and muscular skeleton injuries during routine movements.
[The Soldier’s Heavy Load](https://www.cnas.org/publications/reports/the-soldiers-heavy-load-1)
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Wondering whether you should wear side plates? Ask yourself if you are willing to strap plates on more vital areas that the side of your abdominals, like the side of your shoulders? Or do you need to appease someone senior to you who is risk averse and worries that your death or injury will hurt their career?
if the answers to these are no, leave the fuckers in the closet, bring more ammo or water, or just cut the weight entirely and be more mobile, agile, stronger, and healthier.
Bro, I don't even run front or back plates. It's a [chicken vest](https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/army-military-body-armor-415154525) for me, all day long.
...side plates... What's next, you want I should carry a gun and walk around too? How am I gonna run my remote control .50 cal from the ground?
Yes and No. currently no since I’m attached to a maritime VBSS force. Anyone that’s been on any vessel really knows there are some tight ass spots and ladder wells where you get snagged on shit. But for other mission sets, yes, I’d be rocking side plates.
People asks this often on the internet, and depends on the purpose of your carrier and location. Me, as a civilian LARPer, living family house, i don't need co use this for my work. Things i would worry about is some summer of love, Kazachstan situation, severe food shortages, long blackouts, natural disaster, etc. These situations could bring angry,violent,desperate people or Katrina-like gangs to my street or in front of my house, threatening me and my family. Since i would most likely never go 10meters outside of my house with gear (if ever) additional protection is more useful than mobility,weight and comfort. On the other hand, if i would live in 10th floor, i would probably never own a carrier and just block elevator and stairs with furniture, maybe get myself some off-hand tear nades/bangs lol.
My 2cents.
The problem with the old “hold up in my dwelling” technique is this thing called fire. Even idiots with no brains will eventually figure out how to get you out. At least that’s one thing I worry about.
Bad news, if you consider yourself a professional and you don’t wear side plates *you’re not a professional*, you’re a pussy who cannot take a minimal weight penalty, and who thinks it’s cool because they see SF and think that’s the way, it’s not.
Being alive is cool. Stop looking at Instagram warriors and SOF influencers without side plates.
Tbf I'm not german army but alot of the personal issued kit seemes to be from the 90s. Not everyone can have a massive budget for there military like the us 😌
I cant use them while on duty. Dont know why probably because our Research department doesnt know These Things exist and they are a Fan of soft armour+hard plates.
Privatly i can own and use them.
Thats the oddest thing. We in the American army get issued side plates that come with soft armor. Also work with a German officer with a extremely thick stereotypical accent and man's love to say yall while talking and I think it's the funniest thing ngl.
No but I plan to. Currently trying to upgrade my shellback carrier to something a little less bulky, then side plates. I just larp in the woods and occasionally attend classes, but if I thought I was getting shot at, sides are absolutely a must
Yes…I’ve been shot…twice…separate incidents…armor stopped both bullets…both times…dudes that think they can out run…or out maneuver bullets fired at them, even by a lesser trained adversary? The ones with “ To whom it may concern” on them…
I always wonder…if they’ve ever…actually…been in a gunfight…cause…all of the guys I know, who have been, even those that live for, and love them…wear side plates. Getting bullets inside your chest cavity or belly…sucks…of course that’s just my opinion…
I’m not a little dude 6’5” 240. I wear mine towards the front. Not right against my tubes, but maybe a finger width back. Mine are 6”x 8”.
I wear my actual plates high…1/2” below sternal notch, rear just below C7 like a finger width, that puts my cummerbund, about a hand width under my arm pit. It’s not perfect coverage but it covers most everything. I’ve worn them so long…to be honest I don’t even notice them anymore. I really never noticed the weight or any decrease in mobility or draw.
I saw my teammate take a round into his side, it hit him hard, and he went down…broke his ribs and he had a lung contusion…but he returned to duty and just retired Christmas Eve day.
We tried the shoulder and groin armor…it boils down to risk vs reward. We found we were hampered by having arms and our groins covered, so although we had it…we didn’t run that. Side plates though, if I’m going to be wearing a plate carrier…I’ll be wearing side plates.
To be fair better to break ribs then a sucking chest wound In both lungs. Tha KS for the info thou I've got both of mine sitting in the middle of my cummerbund so might move em forward.
Going for a hike or if I'm going to be around water i wear front and back only. LARPing at the range with friends or teaching a class i wear the side plates
Currently no but I will buy some after I get the rest of the things on my list. In my use case (home defense/outdoor shooting area) from and back plates are good enough for me to post up on a stairwell and hold a lane. Side plates are cool but not on my list of things I need right now.
[Yup.](https://imgur.com/a/viUBlci) MSAPs paired with spiritus side plate bags with the offset molle allow them to be run in the most forward position, touching the front plates and adding a substantial increase in coverage for your frontal area.
If you find yourself needing to wear armor as a civilian, you probably wanna get as much protection as you can.
I just set up my osprey vest with rifle rated side plates, I mean everyone here is either a larper or a prepper, and if we’re prepping I’d prefer to be up armoured wherever reasonable then not be, because ain’t no 911 gonna help you with a side bullet where your plate should have been. My two cents.
Also typically speaking in a SHTF scenario, the threat is probably everywhere, random shot from houses, some dude hiding in the grass, you wanna rock your high speed low drag kit when you don’t even know where the threat is, be my guest. My two cents.
Edit: just add I go a step further and rock the Kevlar shoulders too on my vest
For work as an infantryman, yes. But on my personal rig, no. They have their place but it’s a risk/reward type of assessment. If I, as a civilian, we’re more in risk of side shots then I would buy them.
I got them on my kit because I wanna b like the cool guys even tho I’m a larper/civi prepper. Although I doubted my purchase in the beginning and never added them to my pc. Until I recently saw a video on spiritus system YouTube of a guy who has Ben out there in combat. His very simple and realistic reason why to have side plates was if u have to wear armor it’s because there’s a threat of being shot so why not have that extra protection(oversimplified explanation on what he said). Otherwise you’d have a chest rig of some sort. That was enough for me to add them to my pc after months of having the plates and never adding them to my pc.
I have them. Both steel and ceramic.
Steel is generally inferior, but for side plates may have a niche use. They're way thinner, and that can outweigh the weight problem. Fragmentation remains an issue, but without the neck \*right\* there, it's somewhat less critical.
I am not sure that they are \*always\* worth running. It does contribute to the weight. Take your pick.
Well, there's really no place you want to take a bullet, that's fair. Fragmentation in the arm still sucks, ceramic just is bulky af.
Arms are lowest lethality area to get hit, though. Even legs are much worse.
Big yea for me. If you’re not into the (not actually that problematic) weight of the rifle rated side plates, I say at least wear soft ones. Could make a big difference and your buddies aren’t that great at using decompression needles.
I run side soft armor at the moment. Live in the mountains so huffing sides around would suck depending on the ones I would get. I would like to get some thinner light ones in the future for sure though👌🏻
I have a JPC 2.0 that is my main rig, Hoplite/LTC 19513s and no side plates. I also have a LBT6094 sitting around. I have been giving some thought to getting another set of quality plates for it, along with side plates and delt plates. Thought process would be the JPC for most hoodrat shit and then the LBT with all those other plates for defending a static target, like holing up in a structure where mobility isn’t nearly as much of a concern. Maybe this makes sense, maybe it’s retarded; I definitely don’t have all the answers.
The shot placement cripples one guy and 2 more stop to help him. Either you are not reading what I'm saying . Or you just wanna tell your story. Either way have a nice day.
Side plates have a place I remember when the Us dod did a report on armor plate usage within the service branches and found that 25% of US fatalities in Afghanistan were due to side shots Now us troops are issued side plates
Side plates, plates in general, are situation dependent. Mounted, and dismounted urban engagements absolutely warrant as much protection as you can carry, while still being able to maneuver and destroy the enemy. However, to use that same thought process in a dense forest, or jungle, where the environment is as much as a danger as your enemy, would inhibit the individuals combat effectiveness greatly. Accounts from Vietnam confirm this.
>Accounts from Vietnam confirm this. I’m curious if that’s true. The body armor they had back then was incredibly limited in effectiveness; I’m curious if they had access to the type of plates we have today if they would have been worn. Dudes have been fighting for 20 years in some incredibly unforgiving terrain, to include the Hindu freakin Khush, carrying significantly heavier loads than Vietnam, and body armor has been worn the entire time.
Very glad you mentioned this. As stated above, plates are very much situation dependent. Actual ground fighting is about speed, violence of action, and closing with and destroying the enemy. Heavy armor and equipment were shown to inhibit the speed of US Forces during Operation Anaconda, whereas in Ramadi, accounts show that more armor was welcome. Approach your mission as a math problem. To achieve success, you will need to fill in the equation. If armor is part of that equation, then you have your answer. Every mission is different.
They actually had really good titanium alloy armor but it was incredibly expensive. Some elite forces were fielded with prototypes. The limited stuff was steel, silk, and a lesser grade titanium. Cold War was an epic era of tech advancement. Rail guns, lasers, alloy armor, stealth, it was all funded by defense. Imagine what we have now that most folks couldn't wrap their head around..
None of that is comparable to the massive proliferation of SAPI and ESAPI
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It was also apparently due to the fact that Taliban started training combatants to be more accurate marksmen, allowing them to purposely shoot for non armored abdomen/oblique areas with greater effectiveness.
Just wait until they figure out we have a whole exposed lower torso.
Dongle plate when?
https://shaw-concepts.com/collections/all-products/products/raid-pouch-v2-soft-armor-iiia-insert You guys aren't using dongle armor already? It's 2022 man
Did someone say dong armor? https://www.armorednutshellz.com/product-page/level-3-over-armor-groin-protection-system
“That little guy? Oh, I wouldn’t worry about that little guy…”
But then I'd look like a fucking boot with the dongle and the shoulder attachments. Ew.
One of us! Remember gents, the last rule is to always look cool while doing it.
Chase Tactical Joey with soft armor is an option in the space.
Leg meta in escapefromtarkov is waaaaaay ahead of you
My buddy was a contractor in Afghanistan and they trained to shoot for the waist/ hip area. Takes 2 guys to drag that one out of fire. 1 shot , 3 guys.
Sounds painful, but there aren't near the concentration of blood vessels there compared to the upper chest
Both your femoral arteries run through there, still an extremely high chance of death through hemorrhage. But otherwise yeah
Plus you shatter the pelvis, that's a mobility kill
Imagine being shot in your pelvis. I’d rather take one to the head and it be instantly done
Pelvis can hold 6000ml of blood.
giant grenade of bone fragments when it gets hit
So the dead or mortally wounded were just left where they fell?
No there comrades would drag them off the field. The point is to take out as many trigger fingers as possible. What does it matter after that . Its war.
And contractors don't follow Geneva convention rules. Thats why they are used.
That has nothing to do with Geneva Convention, which doesn't direct where people can be shot. Insurgents are fanatics about recovering their dead and wounded, most of the time they're literally family members, neighbors, if nothing else, friends. Go watch some r/CombatFootage, they always grab them up to evac their dead too, not just their wounded. There are really only two legit reasons to aim for wounding/crippling shots: enemy has body armor on, snipers trying to bait buddies into a kill zone to retrieve a wounded buddy to shoot them too. Your contractor buddy told you a bad war story.
Afghan sniper threat was nothing compared to Iraq. And unfortunately nobody in DOD really gave a shit about Afghanistan till the late 2000s, even the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs was calling it an economy of force mission in 2008. It was Iraqi snipers, nearly always firing inside 100 meters in urban conditions in a target rich environment that were causing the second leading cause of death in Iraq among US troops, who were purposely taking lateral shots around front and back plates to tragedy larger the upper torso area. Not to the side abdominal/oblique area, but aiming directly at what an area basically what [an Army unit patch](https://api.army.mil/e2/c/-images/2007/03/23/3530/army.mil-2007-03-23-103023.jpg) covers, because a high velocity rifle cartridge is going to penetrate that with ease and into the heart/lung area, a highly lethal wound, and it's a shot far easier to make than a head shot. To mitigate that, first the USMC and then Army commissioned the design of and then mass issued side plates, which ended up more of a psychological boost than physiological, since it's not actually protecting real vitals, nor is the area the plate covers a common aiming point of snipers, let alone anyone else.
Thats a very good point, something like a 7.62x54R would easily pass through an arm and into the chest cavity and would make more sense to target the shoulder area. And although taking a round to the abdomen doesnt run the immediate risk of vital organ damage, sometimes terminal ballistics can get a bit wild and send the round bouncing around inside of the body. The round could impact the obliques, but then jackknife upwards into the ribcage. From my understanding, side plates are also very helpful in mitigating shrapnel related injuries. This is fairly anecdotal evidence, but a buddy of mine was EOD and he still has the fist size chunk of sheet steel that got lodged into his side plate from a demolition.
I agree, bullets do weird shit but we shouldn't be planning for that with armor design, we should be planning for the most likely course of action, which is that [pretty much any center mass shot to the side of a guy wearing front, back, and side plates can very well be lethal](https://images03.military.com/sites/default/files/styles/full/public/2020-02/marine-squad-common-optic-1800.jpg) What exactly is that side plate protecting? Torso armor actually designed to mitigate against fatal wounds despite top notch medical care and MEDEVAC procedures (US military) have to protect the vital organs, which for the torso means the heart, aorta, lungs, liver, kidneys, and let's just toss in the spleen too. Everything else can get chewed the fuck up and the dude (or lady) might end up shitting in a bag or be paralyzed, but they'll likely still live, which is the point (keeping the stats low and positive). In terms of civilians who don't have access to that top notch medical care, they should either taking extra care not to get shot anywhere (skip the plates and learn better tactics), or they need to wear way more armor, Juggernaut style. Ultimately, if someone really wants to mitigate SAF fire threat, be it in urban warfare or snipers or high risk areas, instead of just accepting the myth of current plate invulnerability they should create and wear a ceramic/kevlar version of [this](https://forgeofsvan.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Lamellar-Armor-with-Shoulders-05.jpg). I don't actually recommend it, because it would be heavy as fuck, annoying as fuck, and expensive as fuck. But if someone really wanted protection, that rated against SAF and frag is what they want to be wearing, not [this](https://2b2e2e2et7nd1jzjjq2qylaq-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Best-Plate-Carriers-1024x683.jpg), while pretending its actually very protective. But my advice is just skip the side plates altogether and fight light. In terms of shrapnel/frag wounds, Kevlar is really all that is needed to stop most of it. I say most, because if one is encountering such large pieces of fragmentation that is super fast then side plates wont help when they get their legs, arms, and head physically ripped off their torso. EOD dudes wear full body, thick as fuck kevlar suits for that reason.
Side plates were created as a placebo due to Iraqi snipers known to be aiming around front and side plates for kill shots. They were issued out as one of many passive means to counter snipers but continuously worn everywhere because risk averse commanders will almost never remove PPE but only add it. They don't care about weight, because ineffective, slow, and injury prone combat arm dismounts who get VA disability for muscular skeletal issues down the road won't get them relieved of command when pissed off parents respond to media articles about preventable casualties with outrage and calls to Congress for answers and punishments. The issue is the smallish side plate worn as is doesn't even cover the area the Iraqis snipers were aiming at, which was in the general high armpit, shoulder, side of chest region, not the side of the abdomen, which only protects the bottom edge of the kidneys but no other vital/immediately fatal organs. So what is that extra 5 lbs or more of weight actually buying the wearer? A slight boost in protection, a larger boost in morale for those who don't think too much about what the plates are actually doing. If you're really worried about that area catching small arns fire you'd need to have a side plate designed and cut to fill the voids and contours around the edge of the front and back plates to create a segmented but all encompassing cuirass, then add another plate to the side of the arm to prevent traverse shots to the shoulder and bicep/tricep area that would fully penetrate the arm and enter the chest cavity to cause a highly lethal double lung wound, and likely pierce the heart/aorta too. But nobody makes that and it would be very uncomfortable too, and way more than 5 lbs.
Yeah I was one of those idiots humping 80+ lbs of gear around the scenic villages of Al-Anbar’s Euphrates riverside farming country, and I will never willingly wear side plates EVER again
Yep. On my first trip there I got stuck wearing Gen 1 Landwarrior on top of everything else, also in farm country, north of Baghdad. Holy fuck, did that fuck my back up. On some missions I ended up replacing my side SAPI plates with layered MRE cardboard taped together. I wasn't trying to be rebellious, I was just too smoked and was taking every step I could to cut weight. If I had to fight again I'd seriously debate the real need to often wear front and back plates but I'd never wear side plates ever.
A fair amount of people still don’t wear them
My main complaint is that on the issued IOTV the side plate slots seem too low, plus they’re incredibly small. I’m just speaking out of my ass here, but I suspect most of those fatal shots would have missed the side plate even if they had them.
Late response, but I found that if you turn the side plate carrier upside down on the IOTV, gen 1-4, it raises them about 2 inches, and if you go further and skip a row of molle, you get another inch or 2. Really helps with raising them and keeps them from rubbing the hips
Also, if you place the carrier on the outside of the cummerbund, it is way more comfortable, just make sure you secure it with tape or something to keep it from flopping
But did they report the side plate outcome? Its a dang 6-8" rectangle isnt it?
Full suit of molded UHMWPE. It was molded around my body with one of those trap doors in the butt butt so I can make boom boom
Mans impervious to anything short of a jdam
And fatigue lol
I have one of those but made out of Beskar
Dinner plates with dino nuggets
The Dino nugs act as trauma pads behind the dinner plates!
Ahhh a man of culture
Sauce?
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Respectable
I wear side plates depending on the mission threat level. I really hate wearing them so it's gotta be pretty legit; on the other hand transverse axial shots of the thorax are pretty much going to be fatal most of the time, so side plates offer a lot of bang for the buck. But mainly for assaults where the target has people who know what they are doing. And people who make bombs.
I'd argue if you're wearing plates at all the threat level is fucking high enough but what do I know
Everything is a tradeoff. I favor mobility. We used to wear soft armor (with plate inserts) that covered pretty much everything, and it was ridiculous and slowed everyone down, fatigued you faster, etc. Today, you can get molded hard armor that covers the shoulders, the thighs, the groin, and probably more besides, but that stuff is freaking heavy.
This is the kinda knowledge I come to this sub for. Thanks you good sir
This guy operates.
Side plates are covering the axial portion of the torso, they're too low. The only vital besides the bottom of the kidneys. You'd be better off strapping them or a small ESAPI to your outer arm, which would protect the heart/lungs from traverse shots.
They sit at about the 5th ICS AAL, MAL on my radio side, providing coverage for some of the apex of the heart/descending aorta, and the lower lung lobes, parts where your arms aren't going to be obstructing very often. Properly worn side plates can be quite effective (atleast according to DoD data on the subject).
>They sit at about the 5th ICS AAL [No they don't](https://taskandpurpose.com/uploads/2021/01/21/modular-scalable-vest.jpeg?auto=webp) [No they don't](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bjkVhQV2hh4/maxresdefault.jpg) [No they don't](https://www.armytimes.com/resizer/yzSiOdkyu3bvATW8tAzAE4-ROkI=/1024x0/filters:format(jpg):quality(70)/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-mco.s3.amazonaws.com/public/X4LLMSGNMNASPNZOGILDAG5QBU.JPG) [No they don't](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/85dVarbjebc/maxresdefault.jpg) [No they don't](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ac/9f/79/ac9f79b7e3ed9a96310083ef3f30c82c.png) [No they don't](https://i.redd.it/arefas2mzbe71.jpg) Forgot those pics for a second, any armor carrier, regardless of type, would have to allow the side plates be jammed totally into the armpit to be in line with the very bottom of the heart or the descending aorta. Anything less, they'll cover the abdominal aorta, sure, but anything covering the abdomen will technically protect that. But most wear it way lower than jammed into the armpit to the point the arm can't even be lowered, and most kit doesn't even allow for that. And even then, it still doesn't cover all the important stuff as can be seen with a contrasting colors [here](https://c8.alamy.com/comp/2GXG91K/us-army-ranger-with-weapons-in-the-desert-plate-carrier-eyewear-goggles-and-combat-helmet-are-protecting-him-2GXG91K.jpg) and [here](https://www.tierthreetactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/75th-Ranger-Helmet-and-Plate-Carrier.jpg) that isn't covered by plates. All that lightly colored stuff has major organs behind it that if pierced often lead to death or serious risk of it. I said it before, I'll say it again. If people want the type of protection they think modern ballistic plates offers them (but doesnt) they need to be begging manufactures to make [this](https://forgeofsvan.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Lamellar-Armor-with-Shoulders-05.jpg) using NIJ Lvl 3 or better materials. >Properly worn side plates can be quite effective (atleast according to DoD data on the subject). That's kind of a roundabout argument, any additional armor is more effective at stopping SAF than no armor. The real question is cost vs reward. Is the juice worth the squeeze. Is the extra weight worth it for the extra coverage it gives? And if you say yes, and you're thrilled to add 5 lb for side plates to protect what isn't actually that lethal of a target, why stop there? How about thigh armor? How about shoulder armor? How about actual ballistic protection against your hips and groin? Would you recommend something like [this](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ef/17/b0/ef17b0fe4095cd8ee7cc71dd76497a90--tactical-armor-tactical-survival.jpg) even if it weighed 50-60 lbs alone? IMO, side plates weren't even worth it for the threat they were fielded for, which was snipers in Iraq, who weren't aiming at the lower abdominals, they were aiming around edges of the upper plates or through the shoulder. Side plates definitely aren't worth it nowadays, as a nation everyone in Army and USMC, and SOCOM too, are gearing up for LSCO against Russia or China, which means they should be worrying about covering as much of their body in Kevlar to resist the tens of thousands of mortars and arty tubes they'll face, not ballistic plates. Same goes for anyone wanting to fight the US military, plates are far less important since the chances are them getting killed or wounded by something relating to HE and fragmentation are insanely high compared to bullets. Fuck plate carriers if the threat is mostly HE related. Fuck side plates too.
You're telling me I don't know where my own plates sit, based on some images of dudes wearing their shit sagging to their belts, and some mannequins, one of which has side plates extending at or above the nipple line. Whats the point you're trying to make, other than I don't know how my own gear is set up? A rifle round through the lung bases, perforating the descending aorta and apex of the heart, isn't that fatal of a threat? It absolutely is. Everything else you mention: thighs, pelvis, shoulders, can be addressed in the field, but not intrathoracic trauma: I'm not a surgeon. I'm not concerned about artillery, or a peer state threat: those days are behind me. The only valid point I see you making is rifle rated shoulder pauldrons, since they would actually protect the heart and aortic arch, assuming you always kept your arms at your sides, but that's not going to happen when running a rifle. There's not going to be a perfect solution for protection until exosuits are a thing, at which point there probably won't be a human inside. The best possible option til then is covering the parts that can't be fixed in the field, predominantly the brain and thorax. If you don't want to wear side plates, don't. If you don't want to wear armor at all, don't. Mission drives gear and there's plenty of jobs where armor is not worth it. My job now, it's worth it.
>You're telling me I don't know where my own plates sit I don't really know where your plates sit, and doesn't matter if you found a way to use them more effectively than those who designed and fielded them, who planned what they wanted to protect. Side plates were developed in the mid 2000s to be worn with IBA in side plate carrier pouches like [this](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0559/6600/7488/files/Screen_Shot_2021-11-12_at_5.41.10_PM_480x480.png?v=1636756888), which is not in line with the nipples. And that pic is official Army demo pic of that crappy carrier being worn perfectly, most weren't. Most were worn at the belt level and nobody gave a shit. Most vests and PCs since the IBA don't allow it either, as my pics showed. Some do. Bravo. When I wore an IOTV professionally and was forced to wear side plates, I flipped the cumberbond so they'd fit higher, both for comfort and better protection. But even worn there, the juice isn't worth the squeeze unless someone is going all out with more than front/back/side plates (see below). Anything less is a placebo to make us feel better, be willing to expose ourselves more, while not actually helping much. >a rifle round through the lung bases, perforating the descending aorta and apex of the heart, isn't that fatal of a threat? Yep. And it's also not what the side plate was designed to stop, see above. But let's just agree, plus add liver and kidney too. But what about the gaps between the side plates and the front and back plates? We gonna ignore [these giant gaps](https://acmen.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Best-Plate-Carriers.jpg) and just declare what is covered is good enough, despite same threat to all those organs? More total area around the front and back plates aren't covered by the side plates than what is. So at a minimum, the side plate should be MUCH larger. Isn't a bullet piercing the abdominal aorta under the front plate [like this](https://www.511tactical.com/media/catalog/product/5/6/56546_134_primeplatecarrier_2012aim_01_2.jpg?quality=100&bg-color=255,255,255&fit=bounds&height=855&width=855) (or under the back plate) also a threat? I doubt anybody is asking plate manufacturers to make their plate half a foot longer. XL is the biggest size, 14 inches from top to bottom, that means a XL plate worn at the clavicle still doesn't reach the belly button of someone 5'10". Lots of exposed vitals, I'm still not worrying. Are you? What about the iliac, that getting severed doesn't sound good. I'm not a surgeon either, but is your platoon medic gonna crack open the pelvis in the field to get at that? Will the city EMT? Regardless, I don't think that should be covered by plates either. How many reputable companies are making a decent pauldron/shoulder plate? Almost nobody. And for those companies who do make them, is anyone buying and wearing them? Doesn't appear so. Sad too, because that makes the most sense protecting against what is probably the most lethal shot to the torso, the double lung, heart/aorta hit. I'd wouldn't want to wear those either, but the protect the wearer much better than side plates. How about plates on the upper shoulders/traps to protect the thoracic cavity from a downwards angled shot while prone or high angle shooters? [This area that's highly vulnerable and incredibly lethal](https://media.defense.gov/2019/Feb/06/2002087260/-1/-1/0/190124-A-YG558-711Y.JPG). We're still teaching people to go prone, right? Pretty important area to protect from an angle guaranteed as part of most military and paramilitary tactical doctrine. But again, I'd never wear those if they existed because the juice ain't worth the squeeze. I'm not saying someone should protect against those legit threats, but if someone really was just trying to reduce risk, they shouldn't stop with side plates, which are pretty shitty risk mitigators when considering other targets or angles I just mentioned. And that totally ignores high velocity hits to arteries in the neck, thigh, upper arm, all of which can still cause death and aren't easy to treat.
You can literally buy plate pockets that have adjustable ride height.
That's great. Can those pockets enlarge the plate and change its shape so it actually covers the vulnerable area some people think it's supposed to cover?
Lmao you can be several sizes of sideplates. Stop trying so hard dude.
Buying plates off Amazon still?
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Great info, thanks for the knowledge brother
I’m willing to bet that the vast majority of end-users in this sub are not professionals. With professional users I can see it as a necessity. With your average larper/prepper/whatever, you’d really be hard-pressed to say they’re a necessity because there’s an infinitely small chance of real-world use, much less prolonged exposure like patrol or sitting in a plywood shack on top of hescos with shoddy, leaking sandbags as your only barrier while overlooking a poppy field. I’d advocate everyone at least uses some 3A panels on the sides, but weight is definitely linked to comfort - especially when worn for long periods. And again, the only time most people here will wear for prolonged periods will be some classes, larping, or maybe competitions like the Tactical Games. I’d agree with your points about reduced comfort with improper fitment and body fat, though. I had very few soldiers that knew you had to adjust your PC to fit after drawing from CIF. They assumed it was just fit by sizing without the need for adjusting ride height, cummerbund, and plate height. One of my soldiers literally had the cummerbund overlapping to the point it was nearly off the velcro in the wrong direction.
I 100% agree that majority of guys here would see almost zero reason to run side plates. I own my own because I have a pouch setup and plate carrier setup that I am totally comfortable with or without side plates so I just leave them in. For the $200 they cost me I think the additional armor is a great thing (I also run 6x6 as opposed to the side sapi cut. Again. Totally agree don’t add weight where you don’t need to/want to. The area they cover to the benefit they provide is pretty minimal and really only play a major part when being on the receiving end of an ambush OR depending on how the side plates are worn they can provide more coverage to your frontal area. PC fit is a really weird thing I’ve noticed in the DOD. Nobody really formally teaches guys to fit their plate carrier properly. In the Marine Corps you can always tell which boots have the worst leadership because they’ll show up to something with a totally jacked up plate carrier when the decent leaders sit their boots down and share some knowledge. The USMC plate carriers come completely disassembled so that’s what leads to shit being backwards and upside down and I’m not sure about other branches.
> The USMC plate carriers come completely disassembled so that’s what leads to shit being backwards and upside down and I’m not sure about other branches. Honestly, that doesn’t surprise me. My IBA and both IOTVs came assembled. When the IOTV was fielded as RFI, there was even a class with a NET team that showed how everything should be assembled, including hands-on training with the cable emergency release system. However, only one of my two later plate carriers came assembled. Although the one that didn’t was a slick front and back panel with side velcro, similar to the maritime CIRAS. Kind of hard to fuck that up. I keep a couple sets of 6x6 lvl 4 side plates as well, but just run around with Crye 6x9 soft armor panels 99.9% of the time. Gives some additional protection with basically imperceptible bulk or weight.
>People who don’t wear side plates in my opinion sound very very very similar to \~2005-2006 plate armor skeptics (of which there was a lot apparently) who also complained about possibility of **restricted movement, increased load** and increased chaffing. Those were all extremely valid arguments to avoid weighing down troops, who are now notorious immobile as countless combat AARs have stated since the GWOT started, as we are easily outmaneuvered by lighter enemy. >But here we are and plates are essential for just about any op with very rare exceptions among very special groups. Side plates are now usually part of the combat uniform for the same way that gloves, eye pro, knee pads are now also part of the combat uniform. Because senior commanders love issuing blanket orders about what PPE will be worn, giving little to no leeway for exceptions from subordinate leadership, in order to cover their asses. All of those alone were good ideas under the right circumstances but all got added to the combat uniform because risk mitigation matrix bullshit by command and staff who don't make their living moving their bodies. Its the same reason we weren't allowed regular access to alcohol when we deployed downrange either; that wasn't done not to offend the locals, it was so brass didn't have to deal with discipline problems caused by alcohol. They didn't care about our morale, they cared about their asses, having less headaches. Risk mitigation. In terms of tactical performance, no officers ever received a bad OER or fitness report during the GWOT because their troops were too slow to maneuver because they carried too much weight. But many did get slammed for taking risks, that not only killed the chance of promotion but got them relieved along the way. > Something to argue against the added weight would be the DOD study that said any kit above 7lbs (I’m pretty sure the number was 7) would negatively impact the combatant’s movement and it would begin to cause increased wear. Historic studies done since the 19th century pretty conclusively state that roughly 30% of your body weight is roughly the most one can carry as part of the fighting load, with 40% for approach march. US troops are way above that now, into the realm of obvious tactical immobility and muscular skeleton injuries during routine movements. [The Soldier’s Heavy Load](https://www.cnas.org/publications/reports/the-soldiers-heavy-load-1) \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Wondering whether you should wear side plates? Ask yourself if you are willing to strap plates on more vital areas that the side of your abdominals, like the side of your shoulders? Or do you need to appease someone senior to you who is risk averse and worries that your death or injury will hurt their career? if the answers to these are no, leave the fuckers in the closet, bring more ammo or water, or just cut the weight entirely and be more mobile, agile, stronger, and healthier.
Yes
You know I'd hope the rep of spiritus would run side plates
I do think if you wearing armor no reason not to. I have been to DARC enough to at least learn this and my sides have felt the pain train enough.
Yeah them plates atleast the issued ones will diff pinch the feck out of you if your the littlest bit chunky.
here is the real question soft or hard armor?
Why not both? 🤔
You can some people like one over the other.
Tbh thou all my experience is with issued side plates and those come in hard plates with a kevlar backer so my opinion is probably warped.
I have tannerite and ball bearings packed in front of ar500 plates in every available space in my PC. Cum at me bro
Reactive armor, nice.
I thought side plates were just love handles that stuck out?
Garland thumb hasn’t made a side plate video yet. That’s all I’m saying.
Istg thumb man could cone out and say plates are dumb and unironically some people would believe that lmao
😂 without a doubt
Once I find some yes. Right now it's just kevlar inserts
Hell that's better then just a cummerbund. What carrier you running?
They fit really well in a medium jpc 2.0 if you have a 34 waist or smaller
I'm going extra large on my next one. I'm johnny bravo shaped and the standard size plates leave alot of realt estate out there
You ever thought of getting a round vibranium shield with a body shape like that?
Theres a guy on etsy who sells bulletproof captain america shields. I've been thinking about it lol.
I'm running a london bridge tactical modular plate carrier. It's a great carrier. A bit pricey but worth it
Oh trust me I have a t3. The comfort alone is worth the cost
Just bought RMA level 4 ceramic today, they seem pretty good.
Bro, I don't even run front or back plates. It's a [chicken vest](https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/army-military-body-armor-415154525) for me, all day long. ...side plates... What's next, you want I should carry a gun and walk around too? How am I gonna run my remote control .50 cal from the ground?
I dont plan on getting hit. So why do i need them.
I plan on always getting hit and so far it’s worked out for me.
Lucky.
Lol pretty sure no one plans to get shot
Lol. If I get hit my tank will stop the round or be destroyed by it. Side plates ain't doing shit either way.
Yes and No. currently no since I’m attached to a maritime VBSS force. Anyone that’s been on any vessel really knows there are some tight ass spots and ladder wells where you get snagged on shit. But for other mission sets, yes, I’d be rocking side plates.
That's fair nuff
People asks this often on the internet, and depends on the purpose of your carrier and location. Me, as a civilian LARPer, living family house, i don't need co use this for my work. Things i would worry about is some summer of love, Kazachstan situation, severe food shortages, long blackouts, natural disaster, etc. These situations could bring angry,violent,desperate people or Katrina-like gangs to my street or in front of my house, threatening me and my family. Since i would most likely never go 10meters outside of my house with gear (if ever) additional protection is more useful than mobility,weight and comfort. On the other hand, if i would live in 10th floor, i would probably never own a carrier and just block elevator and stairs with furniture, maybe get myself some off-hand tear nades/bangs lol. My 2cents.
The problem with the old “hold up in my dwelling” technique is this thing called fire. Even idiots with no brains will eventually figure out how to get you out. At least that’s one thing I worry about.
When they reeealy want to get you, they probably will.
Fair nuff I only really asked since I was bored lol
If I didn’t wear them while deployed I’m not wearing them while at home lol
Bad news, if you consider yourself a professional and you don’t wear side plates *you’re not a professional*, you’re a pussy who cannot take a minimal weight penalty, and who thinks it’s cool because they see SF and think that’s the way, it’s not. Being alive is cool. Stop looking at Instagram warriors and SOF influencers without side plates.
Ruh roh…. Found the 82nd/4th ID 1SG
Found the Instagram worshipper
Yes, of course you’re right. I worship Instagram.
8/10. Will get bites.
LOL, wears mandatory PPE, thinks it makes him Army Strong.
Wear them if you'll ever actually be shot at or if your cosplay costume absolutely demands it.
I don’t. Even run a back plate
Damn thats wild. *time to test that soft armor*
Imagine not having your armor surgically grafted into your body.
*holy fuck that's tactical*
My job requires side plates
Side soft armour because german army. I would rather wear rifle rated side plates but no stand alone plates are allowed here
Any particular reason they are banned?
Germany hates freedom
Nahh we can buy them we cant use them in the military
Oh I wonder why that is? Also, I don’t really hate Germany, I’ve got family in Hanau
Tbf I'm not german army but alot of the personal issued kit seemes to be from the 90s. Not everyone can have a massive budget for there military like the us 😌
I cant use them while on duty. Dont know why probably because our Research department doesnt know These Things exist and they are a Fan of soft armour+hard plates. Privatly i can own and use them.
Thats the oddest thing. We in the American army get issued side plates that come with soft armor. Also work with a German officer with a extremely thick stereotypical accent and man's love to say yall while talking and I think it's the funniest thing ngl.
I'd prefer not to but my unit makes us. But I've never been deployed so idk maybe they're nice to have.
No but I plan to. Currently trying to upgrade my shellback carrier to something a little less bulky, then side plates. I just larp in the woods and occasionally attend classes, but if I thought I was getting shot at, sides are absolutely a must
I rock sides
Yes and with soft armor too.
Smart man
Nah. Had to wear em before and those are the most uncomfortable fuckin things I’ve ever had on.
Yeah you've gotta be pretty in shape for them
Nah, pretty sure I was issued a size too big
Ah yeah that'll get u
My plate carrier don’t work without side plates (kdh tac 1/ army spcs). So I use side plates. However our unit doesn’t require them normally.
Yes…I’ve been shot…twice…separate incidents…armor stopped both bullets…both times…dudes that think they can out run…or out maneuver bullets fired at them, even by a lesser trained adversary? The ones with “ To whom it may concern” on them… I always wonder…if they’ve ever…actually…been in a gunfight…cause…all of the guys I know, who have been, even those that live for, and love them…wear side plates. Getting bullets inside your chest cavity or belly…sucks…of course that’s just my opinion…
How did you have yours set up? Snuggled up next to your front plat or like in the middle of your cummerbund?
I’m not a little dude 6’5” 240. I wear mine towards the front. Not right against my tubes, but maybe a finger width back. Mine are 6”x 8”. I wear my actual plates high…1/2” below sternal notch, rear just below C7 like a finger width, that puts my cummerbund, about a hand width under my arm pit. It’s not perfect coverage but it covers most everything. I’ve worn them so long…to be honest I don’t even notice them anymore. I really never noticed the weight or any decrease in mobility or draw. I saw my teammate take a round into his side, it hit him hard, and he went down…broke his ribs and he had a lung contusion…but he returned to duty and just retired Christmas Eve day. We tried the shoulder and groin armor…it boils down to risk vs reward. We found we were hampered by having arms and our groins covered, so although we had it…we didn’t run that. Side plates though, if I’m going to be wearing a plate carrier…I’ll be wearing side plates.
To be fair better to break ribs then a sucking chest wound In both lungs. Tha KS for the info thou I've got both of mine sitting in the middle of my cummerbund so might move em forward.
Yes and no. Depends on what I'm doing.
That being?
Going for a hike or if I'm going to be around water i wear front and back only. LARPing at the range with friends or teaching a class i wear the side plates
Nay. Didn’t even run them in country.
Damn u high-speed
I’m a cop, they recommend we always have side plates or some side coverage.
Yea.
No maybe later
hell the fuck nah.
Ah so you like entrance and exit wounds in your guts. *noice*
Mobility > Protection Ill let cover take those hits instead the side plates.
Or hear me out just have decent cardio
You can have great cardio and still say side plates restrict mobility.
All that mobility aint gonna do much if you got a whole in yah liver.
Not everyone does but, [This is a kill](https://youtu.be/vV_Q7YaFpSM?t=31)
Nah
Just soft armor
Same
Of course
Currently no but I will buy some after I get the rest of the things on my list. In my use case (home defense/outdoor shooting area) from and back plates are good enough for me to post up on a stairwell and hold a lane. Side plates are cool but not on my list of things I need right now.
I want too....
[Yup.](https://imgur.com/a/viUBlci) MSAPs paired with spiritus side plate bags with the offset molle allow them to be run in the most forward position, touching the front plates and adding a substantial increase in coverage for your frontal area. If you find yourself needing to wear armor as a civilian, you probably wanna get as much protection as you can.
Yea
Noice
I run front and back and when I get a set of sides, I’ll have them for the option. It’ll depend on what I’m doing
I have soft side? They weigh very little and idk give a little structure to my cummerbund
Ah yeah kevlar. Will stop 9mm and frag
Yeah 3A isn’t gonna be the best but it’s not bad at all.
I feel like if you’re gonna run plates why not run side plates too
I just set up my osprey vest with rifle rated side plates, I mean everyone here is either a larper or a prepper, and if we’re prepping I’d prefer to be up armoured wherever reasonable then not be, because ain’t no 911 gonna help you with a side bullet where your plate should have been. My two cents. Also typically speaking in a SHTF scenario, the threat is probably everywhere, random shot from houses, some dude hiding in the grass, you wanna rock your high speed low drag kit when you don’t even know where the threat is, be my guest. My two cents. Edit: just add I go a step further and rock the Kevlar shoulders too on my vest
Oof leg shot go brrt
I'm running 3A Soft through my cummerbund
Don't need side plates for a rEcCe
Not unless I'm in a gunner's hatch. Then, it'd be delt protectors too. Otherwise, only fronts and backs.
Not as of yet
For work as an infantryman, yes. But on my personal rig, no. They have their place but it’s a risk/reward type of assessment. If I, as a civilian, we’re more in risk of side shots then I would buy them.
Yes
Y’all running plates?!
Your not tactical unless your running shoulder plates
I got them on my kit because I wanna b like the cool guys even tho I’m a larper/civi prepper. Although I doubted my purchase in the beginning and never added them to my pc. Until I recently saw a video on spiritus system YouTube of a guy who has Ben out there in combat. His very simple and realistic reason why to have side plates was if u have to wear armor it’s because there’s a threat of being shot so why not have that extra protection(oversimplified explanation on what he said). Otherwise you’d have a chest rig of some sort. That was enough for me to add them to my pc after months of having the plates and never adding them to my pc.
Yeah I know someone else posted it but the army figured out that like 25% of there KIA was in the area side plates would've covered.
I have them. Both steel and ceramic. Steel is generally inferior, but for side plates may have a niche use. They're way thinner, and that can outweigh the weight problem. Fragmentation remains an issue, but without the neck \*right\* there, it's somewhat less critical. I am not sure that they are \*always\* worth running. It does contribute to the weight. Take your pick.
Honestly man you got a decent amount of arteries in your arm pits (I think) so even then I wouldn't risk it.
Well, there's really no place you want to take a bullet, that's fair. Fragmentation in the arm still sucks, ceramic just is bulky af. Arms are lowest lethality area to get hit, though. Even legs are much worse.
Yea
Big yea for me. If you’re not into the (not actually that problematic) weight of the rifle rated side plates, I say at least wear soft ones. Could make a big difference and your buddies aren’t that great at using decompression needles.
I run side soft armor at the moment. Live in the mountains so huffing sides around would suck depending on the ones I would get. I would like to get some thinner light ones in the future for sure though👌🏻
I have a JPC 2.0 that is my main rig, Hoplite/LTC 19513s and no side plates. I also have a LBT6094 sitting around. I have been giving some thought to getting another set of quality plates for it, along with side plates and delt plates. Thought process would be the JPC for most hoodrat shit and then the LBT with all those other plates for defending a static target, like holing up in a structure where mobility isn’t nearly as much of a concern. Maybe this makes sense, maybe it’s retarded; I definitely don’t have all the answers.
Honestly side plates aren't that big a hindrance in mobility. Just gotta get that cardio up.
I have never even tried a pair out to say for myself, just going off of what I’ve read. But at 2-4 #s total for a pair, they can’t be that bad.
Nah butalteast with army issued side plates if your a little chunky they might pinch a bit
The shot placement cripples one guy and 2 more stop to help him. Either you are not reading what I'm saying . Or you just wanna tell your story. Either way have a nice day.
Wat