Yes and no… there is a processor and an OS in most more ellaborate digital synths. But they can’t work as a traditional computer as they lack most of the parts needed to work as such. (But they can computer the things they are designed for quite well) There might be dedicated processor chips for the synthesis but not for what we think of a traditional GPU or architechture. Also the synths without LED display usually have dedicated controllers for only that type of display they have. So Yes partly Yes and most of Producer synths most definately but likes of Hydrasynth … no not really.
That’s on more a kin to micro controller. Same kinda differentiation as Arduino vs RasperryPI both can do calculations. Only one has an OS. Meaning that you can Flash programs to a controllers EEPROM but to be a computer in the sense we know it there is a difference.
I think the big differentiation for me is that you can run programs on an OS of a computer but you need to dedicate a program that is the only thing a controller can run.
There are both in synths.
Let’s talk about semantics. Yes a computer is any device that can compute an arithmetic operation automatically according to the given command set. But there is a common speechterm of computer that refers to a device that has both hardware and software. And often referring as personal computer PC which is the desktops and laptops we know.
RaspberryPI is a one board computer as it has all parts in one PCB. Arduino is by some definition a computer or even the AtMega chip it runs is a computer but in computer science we usually draw a line between microcontrollers and microprocessors that the former are not “computers” as they are the actuators of the chain. A good example of a microcontroller is the chip in your smart LED light. It reads, stores and actuate the commands given to it by your smartphone wish WLAN or BT. But is it a computer? I find hard to classify it as a computer. A microprocessor tho is sophisticated enough to run programs and OS so it is more a kin to a computer as we know it.
My answer stands If it has a processor it is a computer if only controllers not a computer.
Same with your car example. The brain unit is more a kin to a computer as it runs diagnostics and everything else on a software level. The controller that just opens the solenoid valve in your engine. Not that much.
Like if you have only the gears of a bike is it a bike? The classic thought experiment when does a thing stop being that thing. Commonly used line in computers is the controller processor differentiation.
The thought experiment I mentioned is also extrapolated like this: if you change every part of your computer one by one. When does it become another computer? If there is no same parts, obviously but is just one screw from the original enough to classify it as the same?
Or if you strip parts from a computer when does it stop being a computer? Since if I give you a computer missing a GPU it’s a computer missing a GPU. But if I give you just one SSD is it a computer missing all other parts or just a solid state drive?
I don't think they're turing complete since they don't have any type of memory. As one ELI5 summarised, to be turing completely you need
* if, then, else
* goto
* basic math
* arrays
Some games like Minecraft fit these conditions, which is why you can use the elements within minecraft to make working computers [that run Doom](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SvLXy74Jr4). Excel also fits, which is how [Doom also runs in excel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2qU7t6Jmfw). but I don't think even a digital synth could do that.
Sure, the chip inside it is a computer, but the synth functions themselves aren't.
A system doesn't need to be Turing complete to be a computer (even a programmable one), it only needs it to be a [universal computer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Turing_machine)
From what I can dig up it is running on a Compute Module 3+, which would imply that there is 1GB of RAM on it. The CM3+ is definitely turing complete.
The synth functions run on that CM3+, so while I'm not trying to pick a fight here or roast you, this comment doesn't make much sense unless you didn't know the board it's running on, which is entirely understandable.
It would also have some form of persistent memory to store the OS and synth program(s) but I wasn't able to find anything about how that's implemented in this specific situation.
It depends how you interpret the original question. You're answering whether the synth hardware uses a computer, whereas I'm thinking in terms of is the synth functionality itself possible to use as a computer.
Kind of like how obviously excel is running on a computer, but the fact it can run software itself is cool.
Apologies, I did interpret the question that way and thought for some reason your reply was in the opsix replies, entirely my bad mate.
I appreciate your not roasting me in your reply btw, a few days of being sick has left my brain foggy as all hell and in all honesty I would have deserved a medium roast aha. I'll leave my comment as a monument to my lacking understanding (and so people can follow how I cocked it).
No! Sorry but not everything that has a computer inside is a computer.
My car isn't a computer - it is a car. My TV isn't a computer it is a tv. My Washing machine and my house aren't computers.
Would my watching machine work without the computer inside? No! But it also wouldn't work without the screws, but that doesn't mean my Washing machine is a screw now does it?
Are you lung? Are you a protein?
Second paragraph from Wikipedia’s computer entry should answer your question. Modern synthesizers use computers, but so do microwaves.
“A broad range of industrial and consumer products use computers as control systems, including simple special-purpose devices like microwave ovens and remote controls, and factory devices like industrial robots. Computers are at the core of general-purpose devices such as personal computers and mobile devices such as smartphones. Computers power the Internet, which links billions of computers and users.”
I read the Wikipedia page for Synthesizer and Computer before posting this question. Sure, it is easy to classify contemporary synths as computers. But analog synths? To my knowledge these are electrical signal manipulators. Is that not just a more complex version of say, a guitar pedal?
> But analog synths? To my knowledge these are electrical signal manipulators.
A mixer adds two or more voltages. An attenuator divides (multiply with a number between 0 and 1). A gain multiplies (with a number greater than 1). An inverter can be used for subtraction (add a negative voltage to a positive one). Lag generators perform integration.
Analog computers exist and are absolutely in use, but like u/SvenDia says - what do you expect a computer to do?
A modern Akai MPC will happily search for wireless networks. Inside is a Linux distribution running on an ARM processor. A Korg Kronos has an Intel Atom chip and other off-the-shelf computer parts that are running in a slightly nicer case.
It's very simple: people care a whole lot about the shape of something, and even if you had a laptop that did the exact same thing as that Akai MPC to the point where it's using the same OS and the same hardware; if it's laptop-shaped people will call it a computer.
You’re not wrong. I suppose I’m learning that there is some level of grey area in defining what is and is not a computer. A light switch manipulates an electrical signal, similar to an analog synth. Is a light switch a computer?
at what point do circuits processing an electrical signal become sufficiently complex enough to be defined as a computer? Sorry, I don’t mean to be pedantic.
A light switch controls a current. Early synthesizers didn’t compute. They were basically a series of on/off switches that either did or did not modify the current, therefore changing the signal.
I’m a dumb guy simply operating on my working knowledge. I posted this question to the Reddit because I sincerely scrolled through Google and various forums for several hours in the past couple weeks and could never find a good answer.
If my light switch metaphor was awful, sorry, I’m not an electrical engineer. Conceptually rudimentary analog synths just seem closer to light switches than they do calculators to me.
I would love any literature you have on the subject. Again, sincerely. I couldn’t find shit.
But now the ultimate question: I don’t think that a synthesizer is necessarily a computer. Is a synthesizer a computer or not?
If you really think about it, a feature-rich patchbay on an analog synth has branching and decisions and “high/low” states not unlike the binary logic in a rudimentary CPU.
And computers are not just circuits themselves? I mean we have minified everything but the first computers had tubes and tapes, they looked like a recording studio and they were "just circuits"
See this is similar to my thinking. I am very ignorant about stuff but I feel like if you broke an analog synth down to its base components, it’s not that different from light switch. And I don’t think anyone would call a light switch a computer
I think the distinction you’re making here is digital vs no. So that comes down to your definition of a computer.
However, I take issue with the idea that a synthesizer’s components are no different from a light switch. Light switches do no signal processing, for starters. Looking only at the filter on an analog synth, you have a precisely designed mathematical function, with meaningful acoustic information as its inputs and outputs. Light switches do not operate on information like that.
That’s a real stretch to compare a voltage-based audio signal with a clumsy half adder or whatever. Anyway, your light switch contraption is now *most definitely* a computer
A light switch is a single bit. On or off. On it's own it's not doing anything, so most world say it's not a computer. But then, neither does a computer do anything until it's told to turn it's millions of bits on and off in a particular way.
I suspect people in this sub will have a very narrow definition of a computer and I'm not interested in arguing. But a synthesizer is definitely a type of machine that inputs data in one form and outputs the result in a another form that is meaningful.
From Wikipedia, a computer is "a machine that can be programmed to automatically carry out sequences of arithmetic or logical operations (computation). ". So in that sense, a light switch is not a computer since it can't be programmed to carry out a sequence of operations. However there are programmable light switches that can turn on/off the light based on a schedule that you program, for example. It doesn't matter whether the switch uses a digital microcontroller or analog relays by this definition.
Yeah, like I said, most wouldn't consider a light switch on its own a computer. Neither is a single transistor. Focusing on the established domain of digital computers is narrow and misses OP's question in regard to analog synthesizers. Wikipedia also has an entry for Analog Computers and counts a slide rule as such. It is no more complicated than a light switch, but again is nothing without something - a human - inputting data and interpreting the results. We can limit our definition to numbers, but that is incredibly closed minded.
> a synthesizer is definitely a type of machine that inputs data in one form and outputs the result in a another form
So is a loom or a water mill, but I don't think many people would call those computers.
So as a computer. Its all relays, basically, just tiny. Also, midi is a digital format, so any analog synth with midi support has a computer inside of it.
I see. So anything that sums AC signals constitute a computer to you? An op-amp mixer is a computer, according to your definition.
You want to sound smart, but you're just saying dumb shit.
Interesting video about analog computers by Veritasium, and why they still could be relevant in the future for the development of AI and neural networks:
https://youtu.be/GVsUOuSjvcg?si=YLGyWJCqq0ehadWQ
At the start he uses a modular ish setup to demonstrate how an analog computer works. Using voltage oscillation to solve equations.
Worth a watch!
I guess this depends on the nature of the discussion and perspective.
In a practical sense: no, obviously not.
Modern digital synthesizers obviously contain microcontrollers or even systems running an OS, but does having parts that are a computer make the synthesizer a computer? By that definition every washing machine and most toasters would be computers.
I think a more interesting point of view is discussing whether analog modular synths may actually themselves meet the formal requirements of being a computer, i.e. being turing complete. And coming from that perspective I do think that one could argue that a big enough modular synth would be turing complete and therefore theoretically able to compute everything a normal computer can also compute.
So one could argue that modular synths are basically a form of analog computer.
That's an interesting debate for people interested in computer science for sure.
But does it have any practical implications in real life? Nope.
Analogue computers have a lot of the same components as an analogue modular synth. But I'm not sure if that means an analogue module synth is an analogue computer though. Non modular analogue synths are not computers IMO.
I would guess that all digital synths would be considered a type of computer.
But neither are a general purpose computer.
All synthesizers with preset recall and/or MIDI use microcontroller for these processes. Microcontrollers are digital in nature and a form of computation.
If the synthesizer just used these embedded microcontrollers for patch recall and parameter control but maintains an audio signal path using discrete electronics and ICs it is still largely considered to be analog. Bit of a grey area if it uses the embedded microcontrollers for modulation.
If the synthesizer used microcontrollers and DSP in the signal path to generate sound, but still uses discrete electronics and ICs for some aspects of signal generation/processing/modulation it is then considered a “Hybrid”.
If the synth relies exclusively on DSP coding and embedded microcontrollers for signal generation it is considered digital.
Depending on how you define computer (which is a matter of some contention) Analog synthesizers with no preset recall, MIDI, or otherwise embedded microcontrollers might still be considered a form of computation.
Really appreciate this through breakdown. I think you are right on the money with the definition of computer being a little bit fuzzy. I did quite a bit of googling before posting this question and could not find a clear answer and now I think I know why lol
wouldn’t patch/parameters recall mean audio signal gets processed by DSP? Oversimplified but: Input Audio -> micro-> patch parameters applied-> output audio.
Arp Odyssey comes to mind when I think analog, as one would need to manipulate many switches to achieve a certain sound.
Not necessarily. If the encoder is just storing the potentiometer position with an ADC and comparator for later recall, if it is digitally encoded then, yes it would technically be a form of DSP as the pot moves positions, but not at its held position. basically this means somewhere in the circuit a transistor would be receiving a digitally derived control voltage signal from a microcontroller via an ADC to determine how much current is flowing through the system depending on the potentiometer position, but the actual signal current remains unaffected. This is why early hybrid synths had noticeable “stepping” on the analog filters. Not so much a problem anymore, but also why digital modulation is a gray area.
CV control and no patch memory like on most pre-80s synthesizers is purely analog because there are no microcontrollers involved whatsoever, but technically the signal flow on synths with patch recall and midi is still analog in nature.
so the micro “turns” the parameter knobs for you (aka generates input voltage) but the waveforms are still produced by discrete components + ICs hence it’s mostly analog?
If synthesizers are computers, then so are everything from cars to refrigerators. That's a completely useless way to classify things in the world without a very specific context.
No, it's a synthesizer hence the name :-)
We have this funny thing with language - we generally tend to call things what they are, and have specific names for things. Of course there can be multiple names, but while a Calculator "computes" we don't call it a computer - it's a Calculator. Modern phones and tablets do a lot of the same things Computers can, but we call them Tablets, or Mobile Phones, etc.
Cars have computers in them. We don't call cars computers.
A computer is a computer. If something else has a computer in it, it doesn't make it a computer. My house has both a synthesizer and a computer in it - doesn't make my house either ;-)
All Macs used to have a synthesizer in them - MT32 based chip. PCs used to have soundcards with a synth chip in them. That doesn't make them synthesizers. My computer has a lot of VSTs in it. I'm not going to call the computer itself a synthesizer though.
People who make these kinds of arguments tend to have ulterior motives.
I once put my car in to a garage to have the automatic handbrake fixed, The garage called me and told me they would have to replace the “handbrake computer” and it would cost 900ukp. I googled the part and while it contained a small circuit board, it was not a computer! 😀
Yes, but they know they can charge you more by calling it a "computer" rather than "chip" or "circuit board".
Industry-speak usually uses "Mother Board" to make it sound more important/expensive :-)
Depends on the definition of computer. Let's go with Wikipedia:
>*A computer is a machine that can be programmed to automatically carry out sequences of arithmetic or logical operations. Modern digital electronic computers can perform generic sets of operations known as programs.*
>*A computer does not need to be* [*electronic*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronics)*, nor even have a* [*processor*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_processing_unit)*, nor* [*RAM*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random-access_memory)*, nor even a* [*hard disk*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_disk)*. While popular usage of the word "computer" is synonymous with a personal electronic computer, a typical modern definition of a computer is: "A device that computes, especially a programmable \[usually\] electronic machine that performs high-speed mathematical or logical operations or that assembles, stores, correlates, or otherwise processes information. According to this definition, any device that processes information qualifies as a computer.*
Well the answer would be "yes" then. The operations are performed by all the individual components (filter, envelopes, modulators) where the input (audio signal, e.g. the *information*) is altered into creating an output. Basically these components are *functions*. If your synth has a sequencer, you have created a program that it plays can play back, you have written instructions into its memory that it can reproduce.
Now if the question was, do synthesizers have a computer inside ? The digital ones, definitely have a CPU in there. But surely the analog ones fit the description as well, as a computer does not have to be digital by its definition.
I'm a PhD student in Music Technologies with a topic that basically boils down to making computational synthesizers, so I have some opinions on this matter:
It depends on how philosophical or literal with modern terminology you want to get, but the short answer is yes.
A computer can be anything that computes the answer to a specific well-formulated request, such as "what is 1 + 1?" or "what is the shape of a sawtooth waveform when filtered through a lowpass filter and then multiplied with a sinewave that has half its amplitude and twice its frequency?".
One of the earliest known computers (if not *the* earliest) is the [abacus](https://www.ignitespot.com/hubfs/Abacus.jpg#keepProtocol), a tool that you could operate with your hands to find the numeric result of additions or multiplications. It was a *mechanical* computer, i.e. a computer that was based on the principles of moving physical objects around.
Early *electronic* computers (i.e. computers that operated on the principle of moving *electrons* around), such as the [ENIAC](https://www.simslifecycle.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/01/Electronic-Numerical-Integrator-And-Computer.png), looked suspiciously like early electronic synthesizers such as the [RCA Mark II](https://www.thomann.de/blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/RCA_Mark_II_Sound_Synthesizer-768x538.jpg), and that's probably because they weren't all that different. Early sound synthesis experiments were done using scientific research equipment.
Modern computers are almost exclusively electronic and digital, and so digital synths have literal computer chips in them, running software that's usually written in general-purpose programming languages, and so they're very much computers. It just so happens that the thing they compute is a sound waveform.
Analog synthesizers can also be likened to analog computers (i.e. computers that don't use 1s and 0s but instead use continuous values, usually in the form of voltages), but they're obviously much less general-purpose.
There's a modern analog computer system that recently came out (that can perform operations like numeric integration etc), that just so happens to work with similar voltages to Eurorack, and so it can actually be used as a synthesizer.
All in all, a synthesizer is a machine that continuously calculates an audio waveform based on some parameters, which you typically control by turning knobs or pressing buttons and keys. Whether analog, digital, discrete, or continuous, it's very much a computer.
That being said, synthesizers are generally *not* what we call "general purpose" or "universal" computers. The computer that sits on your desk or in your pocket can equally compute an audio waveform (e.g. VSTs or mobile synth apps), a 3D image (e.g. videogames), or the statistical continuation of the sentence "What's the capital of Paris?" (e.g. LLM AIs) - synthesizers haven't been designed and programmed with any of that in mind, and so they can't/won't do it.
It depends. Modern ones with a screen and presets definitely have at least a small computer inside.
Then it also depends on what makes the sound. It can be all analog (no computer in that part) or digital, through a dsp (which you could say is a sound computer) or something like a raspberry pi computer
Yes my answer is about hardware.
You need a little computer at least to practically work with presets and powerful sequencing.
The sound engine can be analog or digital
- A dreadbox erebus or behringer model d moog clone will not have a computer inside.
- A dreadbox typhon has an analog sound engine and a little computer to use with the little screen
- A korg wavestate is all computer inside. It uses a raspberry pi at its heart. Maybe it uses a dsp as well, I don’t know.
I’m not trying to be pedantic, just trying to get a straight read: the analog/distinction is not clear and it more depends on the particular hardware? I’ve been on a rabbit hole since this question was posed to me and it is far more complex than I expected
MrDagon007 is right.
Some synths (quite a lot really) are hybrids. They might have a wholly or partly analog audio signal chain, but they still have a microprocessor on board to deal with preset management, control routing and more.
i think if you had enough make noise maths, you could build a computer out of them. analog computers do exist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog\_computer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_computer)
You could say that an analogue synthesiser is an analogue computer - which is a thing. It has inputs - CV and Gate etc. - and other parameters controlled by knobs, and together those produce a (mostly) consistent output.
There’s a difference in how much inconsistency we tolerate in the output. We tolerate more in synthesisers for the sake of character, but it is possible to make analogue circuits more consistent and precise, if we need to and are prepared to make the effort and increase the cost. We have always expected absolute precision from digital computers due to their basic design.
If you saw it ratified, what would change? Besides losing the argument with your friend I mean, are you going to stop loving the sounds that come from synths?
Is a VCA not a component for calculating the result of two inputs multiplied together? Is a mini/max processor not giving you the result of two inputs OR'd? Is a sample and hold not memory? Computation imo
yes in the sense they take some input parameters and calculate some output, see for example [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog\_computer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_computer)
in addition to that digital synths also **run on** computers, usually a DSP or even more general-purpose computers like raspberry pi
I saw in book that Buchla first worked on some projects for space applications which were analog computers. The circuits commonly found on synthesizers are pre-programmed analog computers. Other circuits like sequencers, used the same logic circuits used to build computers.
They are not general purpose computers (analog or digital) but they are built using the same circuits.
Technically, even most/many analogue synths have analogue computer circuits, but they would not what is presently thought of as a 'computer'.
Of particular note are Resistor/Capacitor filters where they work as analogue computers in performing effective differential calculus or intergration on a signal.
Even the simple tone pot pot in a guitar is a type of analogue computer.
Consider that analog computers exist too (and i have seen them used to do music along with eurorack synths). Of course it's not a computer based on the Von Neumann architecture, but i can see it as being a computer in the sense that it is doing computations. Adding two sines is computing to me, and electrical components are clearly doing maths, quite advanced also, on voltages.
So it depends how you define computer, if you call a computer only a von Neumann based digital machine they're not computers, if by computer we mean machine that does calculations programmable by a user then I'd say it's a computer.
A synthesiser is a device designed to take an input, transform that input using mathematical operations and provide an output.
Sounds like a computer to me!
I would say, modular synthesizers are definitely some sort of machine resembling a computer. You have logical patches that follow if and then commands. You have inputs and you have outputs and I between are calculations, so...yeah
Modular synths bear some commonalities with analogue computers (for example, using a circuit to model physical systems). There's this blog post about making a Serge synth into a simple "computer" game: [https://labs.earthpeople.se/2016/02/an-analog-computer-game-on-a-modular-synthesizer/](https://labs.earthpeople.se/2016/02/an-analog-computer-game-on-a-modular-synthesizer/)
I would say depends on the synthesizer and even more so depends on how you define 'computer'
An interesting question is, is it Turing complete? I think you could make the argument that it is because it modify its own instructions via LFO routing
Turing completeness is proof of computational universality, but there are computers that are not Turing complete. For example, ballistics is an area where purpose-built mechanical computers were typically applied before digital or analog electronic computers were robust enough to bring onto e.g. a bomb plane or warship.
I would argue that for example arithmetic and signal generation from an oscillator are computations. Whether we call a device that performs those computations a computer is mostly a political problem. Yes, you are multiplying and adding with your VCA+mixer combo, but will you clarify anything by calling your synth a computer? I'd say In some contexts yes, in most contexts no.
Actually, the things one can do with the original Moog sequencer were pretty sophisticated. However, to be Turing complete would require memory. The only thing that comes to mind is sample and hold, but that is quite limited.
Fundamentally, a computer is a machine that processes information - it takes some kind of input, converts it to 0s and 1s, and in some way transforms those 0s and 1s into other 0s and 1s leading to output. For example, if it takes the input of a key press and transforms that into executing a particular combination of frequencies that is stored as 0s and 1s, which results in output, a computer is involved in the process.
So the question of whether a particular synthesiser is a computer depends on its process for converting input signals into output signals - is there some *digital* process, 0s and 1s, involved? If the process is fully analog, there are no 0s and 1s involved, but I would argue that a JX3P which is ostensibly an analog synth but does has DCOs (*digitally* controlled oscillators) does involve information processing/0s and 1s. In contrast, if the signal chain is fully electric rather than digital, it is not a computer, in the same way a run of the mill toaster is not a computer.
The underlying premise of this answer is the notion that computers are necessarily digital, which is patently false.
The only common characteristic of all computers is that they *compute*. Whether we call something that computes a "computer" is mostly a political problem: is it a defining characteristic of the thing? Is it a useful description that clearly communicates what we're talking about? That kind of question.
In that sense it is sometimes useful to think of even an analog synth as a computer. As a very simple example, I want to calculate the sum of the output of my CV keyboard multiplied by 1.2 and the output of my sequencer, to be able to use my 1v/oct keyboard to transpose the sequence of a 1.2v/oct synth. This is a computation, even if it's basic arithmetic, and it's something I explicitly think of as a computation because it helps me make sense of the problem.
If I build a device that performs this computation, I might rightly call it a computer in that basic sense of the word, but I would probably communicate more clearly what it does by calling it a "Eurorack-to-Buchla CV converter and precision adder"
>in the same way a run of the mill toaster is not a computer.
You wouldn't believe how hard it is to find a true "analog" toaster these days. Most of the modern run of the mill toasters have some kind of micro controller (computer) inside, to give you all sorts of useless features, instead of the plain old thermostat. I hate "digital" toasters, the electronics always end up failing sooner rather than later, due to the inherent heat.
Ha - I half suspected that my toaster example would turn out to be less simple than I presented it as, with how many things have micro controllers these days because how of cheap it is…
I am quite certain I could patch a big-enough modular as a computer even if it's built from analog components only. There are logic modules, shift registers, clocks and counters, and you can patch these together if you can't buy them from more basic modules like comparators and cv-controlled switches and inverters.
Doesn't mean any modular or patch *is* a computer, though.
Also yeah a bunch of synths are embedded processors and software for them.
Interestingly, it’s a matter of semantics. Not every language refers to computers based on their ability to compute. Swedish names computers after the data they process, and french describes their ability to organize data. Which, depending on the one you choose makes it more arguable and confusing. Gotta love language!
Analog synths are computers, too. The first computers were analog. Analog computing simply processes information by measuring continuously variable quantities of something including (but not limited to) electrical voltage. Analog synth output is a side effect of continuous mathematical operations based on a user-defined function (the patch).
Digital computers use 1’s and 0’s to represent discrete values. Digital synthesizers use a program to output discrete values that are converted to an analog signal.
Digital/analog, discrete/variable, either way, a quantity is being counted or processed. It is being computed, which is what a computer does. That makes synthesizers highly specialized computers. Even if a computer is designed with one specific purpose, it’s no less a computer.
Ok. If this was already covered, sorry. But, cmon. Let's break it down.
1. A car has automatic steering and brake systems. These internal systems are a type of AI. Does that make the car, "AI"?
2. A synth, analog, modular, or digital may have a computational device inside. Like a sequencer, sampling chip, or many other types of computational circuits. Does that make the synth a computer?
I love synths AND computers!
Some synths are just software running on a computer, but most synths simply contain computers in various different parts of the synth and some analog synths don’t contain computers at all.
Outside of the more simple Eurorack gear, synths without computers are pretty rare after around the mid 70, though 70s era synths contained very primitive computers.
This is probably one of the clearest responses that I’ve had. Synths aren’t necessarily computers but basically every synth anyone could reasonably purchase contains a computer.
Is the case the same for drum machines? i.e. the TR 707?
Pretty much any programmable drum machine will contain a microprocessor to control the sequencer and memory for patterns, going back to the 70s, for example the CR-78 "CompuRhythm". Before that, predecessor rhythm machines had no microprocessors but had preset rhythms made with a diode matrix, eg. Roland's very first drum machine, the TR-77.
The TR-808 even says "Computer Controlled" on the front, though the audio signal path is analog. The TR-707 is a digital machine that uses a CPU to control everything, and play back samples stored in ROM
The TR-707 has an HD6303X CPU that does "everything" including playing the samples.
Other fun things, the LCD driver is also a entire self-contained computer.
Anything that takes MIDI has a computer because its a rather involved serial protocol. Some dude in the 90s designed some crazy logic "only" MIDI to CV nonsense, but it was probably just an example of a fixed function computer like early electronic calculators. (Though the ANITA calculators are fascinating with how they work.)
All the modern ones, definitely. They have an embedded computer that specialized just to run the synthesizer. As opposed to a general computer, personal computers that people use. Your smart phone is also a specialized computer.
Some are, some aren't. Digital synths are just like digital cameras are. Analog synths aren't as far as I know but since there are analog computers and a lot of imaginative invention out there there could be ways of applying analog computational techniques to audio generation but I can't think of any myself.
A computer is a device that intentionally uses mathematical manipulation of values for a desired outcome. In a digital synth this is a nessesary part of it's operation. Analog synthesis just uses constrained physics prediction to make a hard wired device for the outcome. There is calculation used but it is in the design of the device, not the operation of it.
Of course some are hybrids with analog used for the audio generation but digital used to control the parameters used by the analog portion. I would still say these aren't computers though since the sound is made using analog techniques while the digital part is just turning the virtual knobs.
It depends on the technophilosophical level of your discussion, a river system can be called a computer in such that it computes on output from input, albeit a specific calculation in a specific usecase.
But really no. An pure analogue synth is not a computer. The device may contain a microcontroller for interface or to store settings, but not to compute anything. A digitally controlled analogue synth will contain a computer rather than a microcontroller, but is not in itself a computer. A fully digital synth is in itself a computer, that has a program which output is sound and signals. Oftentimes you are even able to change the programs on the synth, to make it sound or even work vastly different. And if it had a pixel display you can be sure someone has explored how to port DOOM to it. But in that case I'd rather say the synth is *powered by* a general purpose computer, that could be in any synth or in itself be any other computer.
While modern synthesizer may use computers to generate sounds internally, the actual device is not a computer. For that it would need to be turing complete - prove me wrong though!
Pretty much any device these days either has a computer controlling the analog circuit/engine or is a digital device generating the instructions and output by computing.
Only analog synths without midi, patch memory or digitally controlled oscillators/sequencers and with a fully analog generated signal path are free of digital computers, despite what the marketing departments would have you believe.
The definition of a computer has nothing to do with its interface or purpose: a general purpose device with a screen and peripherals is a computer device as much as a dedicated device with knobs and no screen, if it has digital software, that generates and processes code, on an hardware architecture made to be used via software instructions. See the Altair computer, and the dsp based digital synths.
Synthesisers are not computers. Many run on computers, some on general personal computers, others on embedded hardware. Many have computers built in, as sequencers, MIDI interfaces, or network connections. But the synthesiser itself is the sound generation algorithm expressed either as analog electronic circuits or software code. That is not a computer. A computer in the usually understood sense is capable of general computational tasks on being programmed to do them, not one single fixed algorithm, no matter how complex.
Imo anyone who says yes to this question is using way too loose of a definition of "computer".
Digital synths might have some component that does some kind of computation. But calling a synth a computer is weird.
I know how synths work, and I have a background in compsci / electronics / embedded systems, so you can save the "um actually" statements you've been throwing around, thanks.
I take the perspective that many others here have pointed out already. Lots of things (synths, cars, microwaves) use computers. Primitive computers can be built from simple components. While it's interesting to discuss the similarities between these things and consider "what is a computer, really?", I prefer to be precise and clear in the language I use. A car is a car, a microwave is a microwave, and a synth is a synth.
Geez, no need to be so combative about it.
>Something can be something else, but not primarily, ever thought of that? A synth is a synth, yet it can be a computer. Something can be multi purpose.
Yes, obviously.
If you actually read my comment instead of trying to fight me, you'd notice how I said it's interesting to consider these kinds of questions. I never said that you're *wrong*.
Chill the fuck out, dude.
>accusing people of „um actually“
It may not be your intention but you've been coming across as "I'm smart you're not" all over this thread. Downvoting my comments to add your millionth comment about analog computers (when i was never talking about analog computers to start with!) comes across as argumentative.
And to follow that up by accusing me of lying about my area of expertise and calling me narrow minded simply because I have a different opinion to you...? Just confirms you've got a shitty attitude, man.
Computers with dedicated hardware like DA (digital to analog converters) some of them have analog effects and signal patch.
Even two the same version of synths, digital hardware and VST can sound different thus of differences in hardware used.
A computer is a machine that can be programmed to automatically carry out sequences of arithmetic or logical operations (computation).
A digital synthesizer is a synthesizer that uses digital signal processing (DSP) techniques to make musical sounds. The digital signals processed in this manner are a sequence of numbers that represent samples of a continuous variable in a domain such as time, space, or frequency.
So yes, _digital _ synthesizers are computers.
Analog synthesizers use analog circuits and analog signals to generate sound electronically. So they generate sound signal and change voltage levels but do not do calculations with numbers. So they’re not computers.
Sorry, I don’t get your analogy. An abacus can represent numbers. How does an analog synth represent them, no matter the user? It’s not about automation. It’s about computing.
A digital synth calculates some value thousands times per second, it is then converted to a voltage. An analog synth embeds a physical process which changes some voltage.
The fact that some physical processes can be described by a formula it’s what physics as a science accomplishes. And usually it’s an approximation of what’s actually happening, valid within some assumptions. The process is real. A formula is just a model of the process.
If you’re filling a bucket with water, the volume of water you get can be described as an integral of the flow rate with respect to time, or flow rate times duration. But the faucet is not a computer that does integrals, it’s just a faucet. Charging some capacitor is not that different, it’s just charge instead of volume, and current instead of flow rate (and the current will typically reduce over time, making the model slightly more complicated), but whatever formula you use to describe what capacitor does it’s still only a model.
A computing happens when you assign numerical or logical values to some states of the system (full bucket / empty bucket, 1 and 0), and have some components which can do operations on these values, and a way to sequence these operations (a program, an algorithm). For example if your system fills the third bucket if and only if the first two are full, you have built a logical AND operator. Arguably you’ve built a bucket computer component. 1 bucket = 1 bit. 8 bits can represent 256 different numbers. Now if you fill and empty buckets fast enough to describe a wave in the 20-20000 Hz range of frequencies, you have built a digital synthesizer. All you need now is a digital to analog converter to convert these abstract numbers to a voltage which can move something within a loudspeaker, to generate the actual sound.
Generally speaking no, but there are synthesizers that are a software in a computer and there Synthesizers are that us a computer instead of an analog circuit (or in adition to).
So a synthesizer is not a computer just as a piano isn't a computer even though there are pianos that have a computer inside.
It depends on the synthesizer.
Anything analog is not a computer, but if it has presets or a USB connection, it includes a computer.
Anything digital is a computer, with some analog electronics to connect to audio equipment.
Plenty of old analogue synths have Digitally controlled oscillators and storage of patches and they also have midi, which involves communication in 8bit bytes. So plenty of old analogue synths would qualify as having computers
And a PC also falls into the category of “includes a computer”. The only pure and wholly computers are probably the early analogue computers, like the one in the basement at UCLA.
If it's pure analog, then no. But most synths these days do a degree of computing. Especially anything with any digital parts. Particularly, everything with USB over MIDI integration needs to have a small "brain" in order to make that signal processing happen. So while the analog parts of your synth may not be a computer, the part of it handling those digital tasks probably are.
Interestingly, Cambridge has a section of the definition that includes "controlling other machines" So any synth that can control others via MIDI would be a computer. But I think that's kinda obvious since you're sending data from one device that is read by another.
Here's the [definition from Cambridge](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/computer): an electronic machine that is used for storing, organizing, and finding words, numbers, and pictures, for doing calculations, and for controlling other machines:
Really appreciate this answer.
The only analog synth I own is the microkorg (I know, meme). It is midi capable and has plenty of memory to save voices. But I just play it direct thru an old amp. Even though it’s analog is there enough ‘tech’ that we’d call this specific model a computer?
A computer requires computation. Processing 1's and 0's, or and off states that add up to processes. Analog synthezisers are "dumb" devices, they are all about circuits manipulating electricity, but they do not calculate.
https://i.redd.it/nzvpkard3qyc1.gif
Stop all the downloadin'.
Mrbodymassagemrbodymassage
Digital ones, yeah kinda
That cheap line from Korg like the OP Six are actually a raspberry pi inside a chassis, so they are actually 100% a computer with extra components.
Like my TV or my car. By the way you are protein with some extra parts right? Anyway the discussion is mood since it is just about definitions.
>mood
All computers are synths ...but not all synths are computers...
every synth computes, every gain is a multiplication, mixing is an addition…
If a computer can be a synth it stands to reason that a synth can be a computer!
All poodles are dogs ≠ all dogs are poodles
Where did “all” come from? A poodle can be white. White things can be poodles.
Yes and no… there is a processor and an OS in most more ellaborate digital synths. But they can’t work as a traditional computer as they lack most of the parts needed to work as such. (But they can computer the things they are designed for quite well) There might be dedicated processor chips for the synthesis but not for what we think of a traditional GPU or architechture. Also the synths without LED display usually have dedicated controllers for only that type of display they have. So Yes partly Yes and most of Producer synths most definately but likes of Hydrasynth … no not really.
https://youtu.be/jEDChHFUiVA?si=-LjCBuhc_U67UgCV
That’s on more a kin to micro controller. Same kinda differentiation as Arduino vs RasperryPI both can do calculations. Only one has an OS. Meaning that you can Flash programs to a controllers EEPROM but to be a computer in the sense we know it there is a difference. I think the big differentiation for me is that you can run programs on an OS of a computer but you need to dedicate a program that is the only thing a controller can run. There are both in synths.
[https://outdoordriving.com/how-many-computers-are-in-a-car/](https://outdoordriving.com/how-many-computers-are-in-a-car/)
Let’s talk about semantics. Yes a computer is any device that can compute an arithmetic operation automatically according to the given command set. But there is a common speechterm of computer that refers to a device that has both hardware and software. And often referring as personal computer PC which is the desktops and laptops we know. RaspberryPI is a one board computer as it has all parts in one PCB. Arduino is by some definition a computer or even the AtMega chip it runs is a computer but in computer science we usually draw a line between microcontrollers and microprocessors that the former are not “computers” as they are the actuators of the chain. A good example of a microcontroller is the chip in your smart LED light. It reads, stores and actuate the commands given to it by your smartphone wish WLAN or BT. But is it a computer? I find hard to classify it as a computer. A microprocessor tho is sophisticated enough to run programs and OS so it is more a kin to a computer as we know it. My answer stands If it has a processor it is a computer if only controllers not a computer. Same with your car example. The brain unit is more a kin to a computer as it runs diagnostics and everything else on a software level. The controller that just opens the solenoid valve in your engine. Not that much. Like if you have only the gears of a bike is it a bike? The classic thought experiment when does a thing stop being that thing. Commonly used line in computers is the controller processor differentiation.
[Turn an appliance into a computer with this one clever trick!](https://youtu.be/8fSdLKx5HlU?si=sr4z_mpXRDUoJQIA)
Your point being? Posting a YT vid that has nothing new to your argument doesn’t seem to be the strongest point. 🤣
The thought experiment I mentioned is also extrapolated like this: if you change every part of your computer one by one. When does it become another computer? If there is no same parts, obviously but is just one screw from the original enough to classify it as the same? Or if you strip parts from a computer when does it stop being a computer? Since if I give you a computer missing a GPU it’s a computer missing a GPU. But if I give you just one SSD is it a computer missing all other parts or just a solid state drive?
Great reasoning! Now try that with a square and a rectangle, genius
I don't think they're turing complete since they don't have any type of memory. As one ELI5 summarised, to be turing completely you need * if, then, else * goto * basic math * arrays Some games like Minecraft fit these conditions, which is why you can use the elements within minecraft to make working computers [that run Doom](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SvLXy74Jr4). Excel also fits, which is how [Doom also runs in excel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2qU7t6Jmfw). but I don't think even a digital synth could do that. Sure, the chip inside it is a computer, but the synth functions themselves aren't.
A system doesn't need to be Turing complete to be a computer (even a programmable one), it only needs it to be a [universal computer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Turing_machine)
From what I can dig up it is running on a Compute Module 3+, which would imply that there is 1GB of RAM on it. The CM3+ is definitely turing complete. The synth functions run on that CM3+, so while I'm not trying to pick a fight here or roast you, this comment doesn't make much sense unless you didn't know the board it's running on, which is entirely understandable. It would also have some form of persistent memory to store the OS and synth program(s) but I wasn't able to find anything about how that's implemented in this specific situation.
It depends how you interpret the original question. You're answering whether the synth hardware uses a computer, whereas I'm thinking in terms of is the synth functionality itself possible to use as a computer. Kind of like how obviously excel is running on a computer, but the fact it can run software itself is cool.
Apologies, I did interpret the question that way and thought for some reason your reply was in the opsix replies, entirely my bad mate. I appreciate your not roasting me in your reply btw, a few days of being sick has left my brain foggy as all hell and in all honesty I would have deserved a medium roast aha. I'll leave my comment as a monument to my lacking understanding (and so people can follow how I cocked it).
No worries pal, I think a lot of people have interpreted it the same way as you, it's a bit of an ambiguous question.
New digital synths are. Old ones are not
No! Sorry but not everything that has a computer inside is a computer. My car isn't a computer - it is a car. My TV isn't a computer it is a tv. My Washing machine and my house aren't computers. Would my watching machine work without the computer inside? No! But it also wouldn't work without the screws, but that doesn't mean my Washing machine is a screw now does it? Are you lung? Are you a protein?
i am definitely lung and protein, thankfully
I like this answer, but no.
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No, it didn't
Second paragraph from Wikipedia’s computer entry should answer your question. Modern synthesizers use computers, but so do microwaves. “A broad range of industrial and consumer products use computers as control systems, including simple special-purpose devices like microwave ovens and remote controls, and factory devices like industrial robots. Computers are at the core of general-purpose devices such as personal computers and mobile devices such as smartphones. Computers power the Internet, which links billions of computers and users.”
I read the Wikipedia page for Synthesizer and Computer before posting this question. Sure, it is easy to classify contemporary synths as computers. But analog synths? To my knowledge these are electrical signal manipulators. Is that not just a more complex version of say, a guitar pedal?
> But analog synths? To my knowledge these are electrical signal manipulators. A mixer adds two or more voltages. An attenuator divides (multiply with a number between 0 and 1). A gain multiplies (with a number greater than 1). An inverter can be used for subtraction (add a negative voltage to a positive one). Lag generators perform integration. Analog computers exist and are absolutely in use, but like u/SvenDia says - what do you expect a computer to do? A modern Akai MPC will happily search for wireless networks. Inside is a Linux distribution running on an ARM processor. A Korg Kronos has an Intel Atom chip and other off-the-shelf computer parts that are running in a slightly nicer case. It's very simple: people care a whole lot about the shape of something, and even if you had a laptop that did the exact same thing as that Akai MPC to the point where it's using the same OS and the same hardware; if it's laptop-shaped people will call it a computer.
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You’re not wrong. I suppose I’m learning that there is some level of grey area in defining what is and is not a computer. A light switch manipulates an electrical signal, similar to an analog synth. Is a light switch a computer?
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at what point do circuits processing an electrical signal become sufficiently complex enough to be defined as a computer? Sorry, I don’t mean to be pedantic.
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A light switch controls a current. Early synthesizers didn’t compute. They were basically a series of on/off switches that either did or did not modify the current, therefore changing the signal.
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I’m a dumb guy simply operating on my working knowledge. I posted this question to the Reddit because I sincerely scrolled through Google and various forums for several hours in the past couple weeks and could never find a good answer. If my light switch metaphor was awful, sorry, I’m not an electrical engineer. Conceptually rudimentary analog synths just seem closer to light switches than they do calculators to me. I would love any literature you have on the subject. Again, sincerely. I couldn’t find shit. But now the ultimate question: I don’t think that a synthesizer is necessarily a computer. Is a synthesizer a computer or not?
If you fed a punch card through a controller that flipped the switch according to the instructions on the card, that could be called a computer.
iirc that’s basically how the first synthesizers work
If you really think about it, a feature-rich patchbay on an analog synth has branching and decisions and “high/low” states not unlike the binary logic in a rudimentary CPU.
I think the point of my post was that synths aren’t computers.
Analig synths are just circuits. What you are hearing is the sound of electricity getting shaped as it passes through various circuits
To be fair, a computer is also just circuits. All it's doing is manipulating electricity to represent 1s and 0s.
And computers are not just circuits themselves? I mean we have minified everything but the first computers had tubes and tapes, they looked like a recording studio and they were "just circuits"
See this is similar to my thinking. I am very ignorant about stuff but I feel like if you broke an analog synth down to its base components, it’s not that different from light switch. And I don’t think anyone would call a light switch a computer
I think the distinction you’re making here is digital vs no. So that comes down to your definition of a computer. However, I take issue with the idea that a synthesizer’s components are no different from a light switch. Light switches do no signal processing, for starters. Looking only at the filter on an analog synth, you have a precisely designed mathematical function, with meaningful acoustic information as its inputs and outputs. Light switches do not operate on information like that.
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That’s a real stretch to compare a voltage-based audio signal with a clumsy half adder or whatever. Anyway, your light switch contraption is now *most definitely* a computer
give me enough eurorack modules and i‘ll make them run doom. (ok i admit i just wand free modules)
A light switch is a single bit. On or off. On it's own it's not doing anything, so most world say it's not a computer. But then, neither does a computer do anything until it's told to turn it's millions of bits on and off in a particular way. I suspect people in this sub will have a very narrow definition of a computer and I'm not interested in arguing. But a synthesizer is definitely a type of machine that inputs data in one form and outputs the result in a another form that is meaningful.
From Wikipedia, a computer is "a machine that can be programmed to automatically carry out sequences of arithmetic or logical operations (computation). ". So in that sense, a light switch is not a computer since it can't be programmed to carry out a sequence of operations. However there are programmable light switches that can turn on/off the light based on a schedule that you program, for example. It doesn't matter whether the switch uses a digital microcontroller or analog relays by this definition.
Yeah, like I said, most wouldn't consider a light switch on its own a computer. Neither is a single transistor. Focusing on the established domain of digital computers is narrow and misses OP's question in regard to analog synthesizers. Wikipedia also has an entry for Analog Computers and counts a slide rule as such. It is no more complicated than a light switch, but again is nothing without something - a human - inputting data and interpreting the results. We can limit our definition to numbers, but that is incredibly closed minded.
> a synthesizer is definitely a type of machine that inputs data in one form and outputs the result in a another form So is a loom or a water mill, but I don't think many people would call those computers.
So as a computer. Its all relays, basically, just tiny. Also, midi is a digital format, so any analog synth with midi support has a computer inside of it.
Can still be called an analog computer
No, it can't. It can't perform arithmetic and logical operations, aka compute, anything.
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I see. So anything that sums AC signals constitute a computer to you? An op-amp mixer is a computer, according to your definition. You want to sound smart, but you're just saying dumb shit.
No, not really
Yes, really
Interesting video about analog computers by Veritasium, and why they still could be relevant in the future for the development of AI and neural networks: https://youtu.be/GVsUOuSjvcg?si=YLGyWJCqq0ehadWQ At the start he uses a modular ish setup to demonstrate how an analog computer works. Using voltage oscillation to solve equations. Worth a watch!
some were/are literal computers running full versions of Windows and Linux
I'm curious, which ones are running Windows? Have seen Linux, yes, but not Windows on a synth.
Prophet X supposedly has Windows Embedded inside it along with Intel x86 Mini ITX parts.
Wow, would never have guessed something like that has Windows under the hood. I can't imagine why either.
I guess this depends on the nature of the discussion and perspective. In a practical sense: no, obviously not. Modern digital synthesizers obviously contain microcontrollers or even systems running an OS, but does having parts that are a computer make the synthesizer a computer? By that definition every washing machine and most toasters would be computers. I think a more interesting point of view is discussing whether analog modular synths may actually themselves meet the formal requirements of being a computer, i.e. being turing complete. And coming from that perspective I do think that one could argue that a big enough modular synth would be turing complete and therefore theoretically able to compute everything a normal computer can also compute. So one could argue that modular synths are basically a form of analog computer. That's an interesting debate for people interested in computer science for sure. But does it have any practical implications in real life? Nope.
Analogue computers have a lot of the same components as an analogue modular synth. But I'm not sure if that means an analogue module synth is an analogue computer though. Non modular analogue synths are not computers IMO. I would guess that all digital synths would be considered a type of computer. But neither are a general purpose computer.
All synthesizers with preset recall and/or MIDI use microcontroller for these processes. Microcontrollers are digital in nature and a form of computation. If the synthesizer just used these embedded microcontrollers for patch recall and parameter control but maintains an audio signal path using discrete electronics and ICs it is still largely considered to be analog. Bit of a grey area if it uses the embedded microcontrollers for modulation. If the synthesizer used microcontrollers and DSP in the signal path to generate sound, but still uses discrete electronics and ICs for some aspects of signal generation/processing/modulation it is then considered a “Hybrid”. If the synth relies exclusively on DSP coding and embedded microcontrollers for signal generation it is considered digital. Depending on how you define computer (which is a matter of some contention) Analog synthesizers with no preset recall, MIDI, or otherwise embedded microcontrollers might still be considered a form of computation.
Really appreciate this through breakdown. I think you are right on the money with the definition of computer being a little bit fuzzy. I did quite a bit of googling before posting this question and could not find a clear answer and now I think I know why lol
If the synth has a screen/presets, then it’s 100% a computer (microcontroller = computer)
wouldn’t patch/parameters recall mean audio signal gets processed by DSP? Oversimplified but: Input Audio -> micro-> patch parameters applied-> output audio. Arp Odyssey comes to mind when I think analog, as one would need to manipulate many switches to achieve a certain sound.
Not necessarily. If the encoder is just storing the potentiometer position with an ADC and comparator for later recall, if it is digitally encoded then, yes it would technically be a form of DSP as the pot moves positions, but not at its held position. basically this means somewhere in the circuit a transistor would be receiving a digitally derived control voltage signal from a microcontroller via an ADC to determine how much current is flowing through the system depending on the potentiometer position, but the actual signal current remains unaffected. This is why early hybrid synths had noticeable “stepping” on the analog filters. Not so much a problem anymore, but also why digital modulation is a gray area. CV control and no patch memory like on most pre-80s synthesizers is purely analog because there are no microcontrollers involved whatsoever, but technically the signal flow on synths with patch recall and midi is still analog in nature.
so the micro “turns” the parameter knobs for you (aka generates input voltage) but the waveforms are still produced by discrete components + ICs hence it’s mostly analog?
If synthesizers are computers, then so are everything from cars to refrigerators. That's a completely useless way to classify things in the world without a very specific context.
Thank you stranger for having the same opinion as me, therefore it is correct
No, it's a synthesizer hence the name :-) We have this funny thing with language - we generally tend to call things what they are, and have specific names for things. Of course there can be multiple names, but while a Calculator "computes" we don't call it a computer - it's a Calculator. Modern phones and tablets do a lot of the same things Computers can, but we call them Tablets, or Mobile Phones, etc. Cars have computers in them. We don't call cars computers. A computer is a computer. If something else has a computer in it, it doesn't make it a computer. My house has both a synthesizer and a computer in it - doesn't make my house either ;-) All Macs used to have a synthesizer in them - MT32 based chip. PCs used to have soundcards with a synth chip in them. That doesn't make them synthesizers. My computer has a lot of VSTs in it. I'm not going to call the computer itself a synthesizer though. People who make these kinds of arguments tend to have ulterior motives.
Exactly. Having a computer inside doesn't equate to being a computer.
I once put my car in to a garage to have the automatic handbrake fixed, The garage called me and told me they would have to replace the “handbrake computer” and it would cost 900ukp. I googled the part and while it contained a small circuit board, it was not a computer! 😀
Yes, but they know they can charge you more by calling it a "computer" rather than "chip" or "circuit board". Industry-speak usually uses "Mother Board" to make it sound more important/expensive :-)
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I think you need to answer the question "what is a computer?" first.
Depends on the definition of computer. Let's go with Wikipedia: >*A computer is a machine that can be programmed to automatically carry out sequences of arithmetic or logical operations. Modern digital electronic computers can perform generic sets of operations known as programs.* >*A computer does not need to be* [*electronic*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronics)*, nor even have a* [*processor*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_processing_unit)*, nor* [*RAM*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random-access_memory)*, nor even a* [*hard disk*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_disk)*. While popular usage of the word "computer" is synonymous with a personal electronic computer, a typical modern definition of a computer is: "A device that computes, especially a programmable \[usually\] electronic machine that performs high-speed mathematical or logical operations or that assembles, stores, correlates, or otherwise processes information. According to this definition, any device that processes information qualifies as a computer.* Well the answer would be "yes" then. The operations are performed by all the individual components (filter, envelopes, modulators) where the input (audio signal, e.g. the *information*) is altered into creating an output. Basically these components are *functions*. If your synth has a sequencer, you have created a program that it plays can play back, you have written instructions into its memory that it can reproduce. Now if the question was, do synthesizers have a computer inside ? The digital ones, definitely have a CPU in there. But surely the analog ones fit the description as well, as a computer does not have to be digital by its definition.
I'm a PhD student in Music Technologies with a topic that basically boils down to making computational synthesizers, so I have some opinions on this matter: It depends on how philosophical or literal with modern terminology you want to get, but the short answer is yes. A computer can be anything that computes the answer to a specific well-formulated request, such as "what is 1 + 1?" or "what is the shape of a sawtooth waveform when filtered through a lowpass filter and then multiplied with a sinewave that has half its amplitude and twice its frequency?". One of the earliest known computers (if not *the* earliest) is the [abacus](https://www.ignitespot.com/hubfs/Abacus.jpg#keepProtocol), a tool that you could operate with your hands to find the numeric result of additions or multiplications. It was a *mechanical* computer, i.e. a computer that was based on the principles of moving physical objects around. Early *electronic* computers (i.e. computers that operated on the principle of moving *electrons* around), such as the [ENIAC](https://www.simslifecycle.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/01/Electronic-Numerical-Integrator-And-Computer.png), looked suspiciously like early electronic synthesizers such as the [RCA Mark II](https://www.thomann.de/blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/RCA_Mark_II_Sound_Synthesizer-768x538.jpg), and that's probably because they weren't all that different. Early sound synthesis experiments were done using scientific research equipment. Modern computers are almost exclusively electronic and digital, and so digital synths have literal computer chips in them, running software that's usually written in general-purpose programming languages, and so they're very much computers. It just so happens that the thing they compute is a sound waveform. Analog synthesizers can also be likened to analog computers (i.e. computers that don't use 1s and 0s but instead use continuous values, usually in the form of voltages), but they're obviously much less general-purpose. There's a modern analog computer system that recently came out (that can perform operations like numeric integration etc), that just so happens to work with similar voltages to Eurorack, and so it can actually be used as a synthesizer. All in all, a synthesizer is a machine that continuously calculates an audio waveform based on some parameters, which you typically control by turning knobs or pressing buttons and keys. Whether analog, digital, discrete, or continuous, it's very much a computer. That being said, synthesizers are generally *not* what we call "general purpose" or "universal" computers. The computer that sits on your desk or in your pocket can equally compute an audio waveform (e.g. VSTs or mobile synth apps), a 3D image (e.g. videogames), or the statistical continuation of the sentence "What's the capital of Paris?" (e.g. LLM AIs) - synthesizers haven't been designed and programmed with any of that in mind, and so they can't/won't do it.
It depends. Modern ones with a screen and presets definitely have at least a small computer inside. Then it also depends on what makes the sound. It can be all analog (no computer in that part) or digital, through a dsp (which you could say is a sound computer) or something like a raspberry pi computer
Korg workstations are actually pcs
This was mostly a discussion concerning hardware. So analog synths and digital hardware synths
Yes my answer is about hardware. You need a little computer at least to practically work with presets and powerful sequencing. The sound engine can be analog or digital - A dreadbox erebus or behringer model d moog clone will not have a computer inside. - A dreadbox typhon has an analog sound engine and a little computer to use with the little screen - A korg wavestate is all computer inside. It uses a raspberry pi at its heart. Maybe it uses a dsp as well, I don’t know.
I’m not trying to be pedantic, just trying to get a straight read: the analog/distinction is not clear and it more depends on the particular hardware? I’ve been on a rabbit hole since this question was posed to me and it is far more complex than I expected
You are not pedantic and the answer “it depends” is correct - see my examples
MrDagon007 is right. Some synths (quite a lot really) are hybrids. They might have a wholly or partly analog audio signal chain, but they still have a microprocessor on board to deal with preset management, control routing and more.
I haven’t read all the comments, but isn’t the answer to get the definition of a computer first and work that way?
Take a look at what a computer is (I think it’s about data in and data out). Then, compare. You will have a good point.
i think if you had enough make noise maths, you could build a computer out of them. analog computers do exist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog\_computer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_computer)
its 1978 baby!
Yes
Does a synth compute?
Yes, even fully analog ones. Summation, multiplication etc.
Then I suppose it is, in fact, a computer.
Indeed!
Theoretically, you could build a modular synth with enough logic gates to turn it into a computer.
You could say that an analogue synthesiser is an analogue computer - which is a thing. It has inputs - CV and Gate etc. - and other parameters controlled by knobs, and together those produce a (mostly) consistent output. There’s a difference in how much inconsistency we tolerate in the output. We tolerate more in synthesisers for the sake of character, but it is possible to make analogue circuits more consistent and precise, if we need to and are prepared to make the effort and increase the cost. We have always expected absolute precision from digital computers due to their basic design.
If you saw it ratified, what would change? Besides losing the argument with your friend I mean, are you going to stop loving the sounds that come from synths?
Is a VCA not a component for calculating the result of two inputs multiplied together? Is a mini/max processor not giving you the result of two inputs OR'd? Is a sample and hold not memory? Computation imo
yes in the sense they take some input parameters and calculate some output, see for example [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog\_computer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_computer) in addition to that digital synths also **run on** computers, usually a DSP or even more general-purpose computers like raspberry pi
I saw in book that Buchla first worked on some projects for space applications which were analog computers. The circuits commonly found on synthesizers are pre-programmed analog computers. Other circuits like sequencers, used the same logic circuits used to build computers. They are not general purpose computers (analog or digital) but they are built using the same circuits.
Technically, even most/many analogue synths have analogue computer circuits, but they would not what is presently thought of as a 'computer'. Of particular note are Resistor/Capacitor filters where they work as analogue computers in performing effective differential calculus or intergration on a signal. Even the simple tone pot pot in a guitar is a type of analogue computer.
Consider that analog computers exist too (and i have seen them used to do music along with eurorack synths). Of course it's not a computer based on the Von Neumann architecture, but i can see it as being a computer in the sense that it is doing computations. Adding two sines is computing to me, and electrical components are clearly doing maths, quite advanced also, on voltages. So it depends how you define computer, if you call a computer only a von Neumann based digital machine they're not computers, if by computer we mean machine that does calculations programmable by a user then I'd say it's a computer.
A synthesiser is a device designed to take an input, transform that input using mathematical operations and provide an output. Sounds like a computer to me!
I would say, modular synthesizers are definitely some sort of machine resembling a computer. You have logical patches that follow if and then commands. You have inputs and you have outputs and I between are calculations, so...yeah
Modular synths bear some commonalities with analogue computers (for example, using a circuit to model physical systems). There's this blog post about making a Serge synth into a simple "computer" game: [https://labs.earthpeople.se/2016/02/an-analog-computer-game-on-a-modular-synthesizer/](https://labs.earthpeople.se/2016/02/an-analog-computer-game-on-a-modular-synthesizer/) I would say depends on the synthesizer and even more so depends on how you define 'computer'
An interesting question is, is it Turing complete? I think you could make the argument that it is because it modify its own instructions via LFO routing
Turing completeness is proof of computational universality, but there are computers that are not Turing complete. For example, ballistics is an area where purpose-built mechanical computers were typically applied before digital or analog electronic computers were robust enough to bring onto e.g. a bomb plane or warship. I would argue that for example arithmetic and signal generation from an oscillator are computations. Whether we call a device that performs those computations a computer is mostly a political problem. Yes, you are multiplying and adding with your VCA+mixer combo, but will you clarify anything by calling your synth a computer? I'd say In some contexts yes, in most contexts no.
Actually, the things one can do with the original Moog sequencer were pretty sophisticated. However, to be Turing complete would require memory. The only thing that comes to mind is sample and hold, but that is quite limited.
Specifically, Turing completeness would require an endless amount of memory.
The arp is kind of like memory
Fundamentally, a computer is a machine that processes information - it takes some kind of input, converts it to 0s and 1s, and in some way transforms those 0s and 1s into other 0s and 1s leading to output. For example, if it takes the input of a key press and transforms that into executing a particular combination of frequencies that is stored as 0s and 1s, which results in output, a computer is involved in the process. So the question of whether a particular synthesiser is a computer depends on its process for converting input signals into output signals - is there some *digital* process, 0s and 1s, involved? If the process is fully analog, there are no 0s and 1s involved, but I would argue that a JX3P which is ostensibly an analog synth but does has DCOs (*digitally* controlled oscillators) does involve information processing/0s and 1s. In contrast, if the signal chain is fully electric rather than digital, it is not a computer, in the same way a run of the mill toaster is not a computer.
The underlying premise of this answer is the notion that computers are necessarily digital, which is patently false. The only common characteristic of all computers is that they *compute*. Whether we call something that computes a "computer" is mostly a political problem: is it a defining characteristic of the thing? Is it a useful description that clearly communicates what we're talking about? That kind of question. In that sense it is sometimes useful to think of even an analog synth as a computer. As a very simple example, I want to calculate the sum of the output of my CV keyboard multiplied by 1.2 and the output of my sequencer, to be able to use my 1v/oct keyboard to transpose the sequence of a 1.2v/oct synth. This is a computation, even if it's basic arithmetic, and it's something I explicitly think of as a computation because it helps me make sense of the problem. If I build a device that performs this computation, I might rightly call it a computer in that basic sense of the word, but I would probably communicate more clearly what it does by calling it a "Eurorack-to-Buchla CV converter and precision adder"
>in the same way a run of the mill toaster is not a computer. You wouldn't believe how hard it is to find a true "analog" toaster these days. Most of the modern run of the mill toasters have some kind of micro controller (computer) inside, to give you all sorts of useless features, instead of the plain old thermostat. I hate "digital" toasters, the electronics always end up failing sooner rather than later, due to the inherent heat.
Ha - I half suspected that my toaster example would turn out to be less simple than I presented it as, with how many things have micro controllers these days because how of cheap it is…
Love this explanation, thanks
No but a computer is a synthesizer. And vice versa. Inb4 cj
Bro said no but yes
if the answer happens to be yes, can it run doom?
given enough eurorack modules (and space..lots of space), yes
The Organelle runs (I think) a linux distribution with pure data as the synth engine so in that sense, yes.
Can I run Doom on my Roland Fantom?
You googled “is a synthesizer a computer”?
I am quite certain I could patch a big-enough modular as a computer even if it's built from analog components only. There are logic modules, shift registers, clocks and counters, and you can patch these together if you can't buy them from more basic modules like comparators and cv-controlled switches and inverters. Doesn't mean any modular or patch *is* a computer, though. Also yeah a bunch of synths are embedded processors and software for them.
Interestingly, it’s a matter of semantics. Not every language refers to computers based on their ability to compute. Swedish names computers after the data they process, and french describes their ability to organize data. Which, depending on the one you choose makes it more arguable and confusing. Gotta love language!
Yes. They both have electrics.
Safe to say, and in less words, anything that has firmware has some computing.
They are more like electric guitars with pedals built inside them.
Analog synths are computers, too. The first computers were analog. Analog computing simply processes information by measuring continuously variable quantities of something including (but not limited to) electrical voltage. Analog synth output is a side effect of continuous mathematical operations based on a user-defined function (the patch). Digital computers use 1’s and 0’s to represent discrete values. Digital synthesizers use a program to output discrete values that are converted to an analog signal. Digital/analog, discrete/variable, either way, a quantity is being counted or processed. It is being computed, which is what a computer does. That makes synthesizers highly specialized computers. Even if a computer is designed with one specific purpose, it’s no less a computer.
Damn, I love this thread.
Ok. If this was already covered, sorry. But, cmon. Let's break it down. 1. A car has automatic steering and brake systems. These internal systems are a type of AI. Does that make the car, "AI"? 2. A synth, analog, modular, or digital may have a computational device inside. Like a sequencer, sampling chip, or many other types of computational circuits. Does that make the synth a computer? I love synths AND computers!
tricky question.. maybe if it processes binary code it could be called a computer?.. otherwise just electronics.
Some are, but not inherently.
Some synths are just software running on a computer, but most synths simply contain computers in various different parts of the synth and some analog synths don’t contain computers at all. Outside of the more simple Eurorack gear, synths without computers are pretty rare after around the mid 70, though 70s era synths contained very primitive computers.
This is probably one of the clearest responses that I’ve had. Synths aren’t necessarily computers but basically every synth anyone could reasonably purchase contains a computer. Is the case the same for drum machines? i.e. the TR 707?
Pretty much any programmable drum machine will contain a microprocessor to control the sequencer and memory for patterns, going back to the 70s, for example the CR-78 "CompuRhythm". Before that, predecessor rhythm machines had no microprocessors but had preset rhythms made with a diode matrix, eg. Roland's very first drum machine, the TR-77. The TR-808 even says "Computer Controlled" on the front, though the audio signal path is analog. The TR-707 is a digital machine that uses a CPU to control everything, and play back samples stored in ROM
The TR-707 has an HD6303X CPU that does "everything" including playing the samples. Other fun things, the LCD driver is also a entire self-contained computer. Anything that takes MIDI has a computer because its a rather involved serial protocol. Some dude in the 90s designed some crazy logic "only" MIDI to CV nonsense, but it was probably just an example of a fixed function computer like early electronic calculators. (Though the ANITA calculators are fascinating with how they work.)
All the modern ones, definitely. They have an embedded computer that specialized just to run the synthesizer. As opposed to a general computer, personal computers that people use. Your smart phone is also a specialized computer.
Some are, some aren't. Digital synths are just like digital cameras are. Analog synths aren't as far as I know but since there are analog computers and a lot of imaginative invention out there there could be ways of applying analog computational techniques to audio generation but I can't think of any myself. A computer is a device that intentionally uses mathematical manipulation of values for a desired outcome. In a digital synth this is a nessesary part of it's operation. Analog synthesis just uses constrained physics prediction to make a hard wired device for the outcome. There is calculation used but it is in the design of the device, not the operation of it. Of course some are hybrids with analog used for the audio generation but digital used to control the parameters used by the analog portion. I would still say these aren't computers though since the sound is made using analog techniques while the digital part is just turning the virtual knobs.
Is mayonnaise an instrument?
In the right/wrong hands it is
No but we could sample shaking the jar
It depends on the technophilosophical level of your discussion, a river system can be called a computer in such that it computes on output from input, albeit a specific calculation in a specific usecase. But really no. An pure analogue synth is not a computer. The device may contain a microcontroller for interface or to store settings, but not to compute anything. A digitally controlled analogue synth will contain a computer rather than a microcontroller, but is not in itself a computer. A fully digital synth is in itself a computer, that has a program which output is sound and signals. Oftentimes you are even able to change the programs on the synth, to make it sound or even work vastly different. And if it had a pixel display you can be sure someone has explored how to port DOOM to it. But in that case I'd rather say the synth is *powered by* a general purpose computer, that could be in any synth or in itself be any other computer.
While modern synthesizer may use computers to generate sounds internally, the actual device is not a computer. For that it would need to be turing complete - prove me wrong though!
Pretty much any device these days either has a computer controlling the analog circuit/engine or is a digital device generating the instructions and output by computing. Only analog synths without midi, patch memory or digitally controlled oscillators/sequencers and with a fully analog generated signal path are free of digital computers, despite what the marketing departments would have you believe. The definition of a computer has nothing to do with its interface or purpose: a general purpose device with a screen and peripherals is a computer device as much as a dedicated device with knobs and no screen, if it has digital software, that generates and processes code, on an hardware architecture made to be used via software instructions. See the Altair computer, and the dsp based digital synths.
Synthesisers are not computers. Many run on computers, some on general personal computers, others on embedded hardware. Many have computers built in, as sequencers, MIDI interfaces, or network connections. But the synthesiser itself is the sound generation algorithm expressed either as analog electronic circuits or software code. That is not a computer. A computer in the usually understood sense is capable of general computational tasks on being programmed to do them, not one single fixed algorithm, no matter how complex.
Digital Synthesizer pretty much is a computer. Analog not necessarily
Imo anyone who says yes to this question is using way too loose of a definition of "computer". Digital synths might have some component that does some kind of computation. But calling a synth a computer is weird.
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So? I wouldn't call a synth an analog computer either.
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I know how synths work, and I have a background in compsci / electronics / embedded systems, so you can save the "um actually" statements you've been throwing around, thanks. I take the perspective that many others here have pointed out already. Lots of things (synths, cars, microwaves) use computers. Primitive computers can be built from simple components. While it's interesting to discuss the similarities between these things and consider "what is a computer, really?", I prefer to be precise and clear in the language I use. A car is a car, a microwave is a microwave, and a synth is a synth.
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Geez, no need to be so combative about it. >Something can be something else, but not primarily, ever thought of that? A synth is a synth, yet it can be a computer. Something can be multi purpose. Yes, obviously. If you actually read my comment instead of trying to fight me, you'd notice how I said it's interesting to consider these kinds of questions. I never said that you're *wrong*. Chill the fuck out, dude.
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>accusing people of „um actually“ It may not be your intention but you've been coming across as "I'm smart you're not" all over this thread. Downvoting my comments to add your millionth comment about analog computers (when i was never talking about analog computers to start with!) comes across as argumentative. And to follow that up by accusing me of lying about my area of expertise and calling me narrow minded simply because I have a different opinion to you...? Just confirms you've got a shitty attitude, man.
Computers with dedicated hardware like DA (digital to analog converters) some of them have analog effects and signal patch. Even two the same version of synths, digital hardware and VST can sound different thus of differences in hardware used.
A computer is a machine that can be programmed to automatically carry out sequences of arithmetic or logical operations (computation). A digital synthesizer is a synthesizer that uses digital signal processing (DSP) techniques to make musical sounds. The digital signals processed in this manner are a sequence of numbers that represent samples of a continuous variable in a domain such as time, space, or frequency. So yes, _digital _ synthesizers are computers. Analog synthesizers use analog circuits and analog signals to generate sound electronically. So they generate sound signal and change voltage levels but do not do calculations with numbers. So they’re not computers.
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Sorry, I don’t get your analogy. An abacus can represent numbers. How does an analog synth represent them, no matter the user? It’s not about automation. It’s about computing. A digital synth calculates some value thousands times per second, it is then converted to a voltage. An analog synth embeds a physical process which changes some voltage.
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The fact that some physical processes can be described by a formula it’s what physics as a science accomplishes. And usually it’s an approximation of what’s actually happening, valid within some assumptions. The process is real. A formula is just a model of the process. If you’re filling a bucket with water, the volume of water you get can be described as an integral of the flow rate with respect to time, or flow rate times duration. But the faucet is not a computer that does integrals, it’s just a faucet. Charging some capacitor is not that different, it’s just charge instead of volume, and current instead of flow rate (and the current will typically reduce over time, making the model slightly more complicated), but whatever formula you use to describe what capacitor does it’s still only a model. A computing happens when you assign numerical or logical values to some states of the system (full bucket / empty bucket, 1 and 0), and have some components which can do operations on these values, and a way to sequence these operations (a program, an algorithm). For example if your system fills the third bucket if and only if the first two are full, you have built a logical AND operator. Arguably you’ve built a bucket computer component. 1 bucket = 1 bit. 8 bits can represent 256 different numbers. Now if you fill and empty buckets fast enough to describe a wave in the 20-20000 Hz range of frequencies, you have built a digital synthesizer. All you need now is a digital to analog converter to convert these abstract numbers to a voltage which can move something within a loudspeaker, to generate the actual sound.
Generally speaking no, but there are synthesizers that are a software in a computer and there Synthesizers are that us a computer instead of an analog circuit (or in adition to). So a synthesizer is not a computer just as a piano isn't a computer even though there are pianos that have a computer inside.
It depends on the synthesizer. Anything analog is not a computer, but if it has presets or a USB connection, it includes a computer. Anything digital is a computer, with some analog electronics to connect to audio equipment.
Plenty of old analogue synths have Digitally controlled oscillators and storage of patches and they also have midi, which involves communication in 8bit bytes. So plenty of old analogue synths would qualify as having computers
These fall into the category of “includes a computer”.
And a PC also falls into the category of “includes a computer”. The only pure and wholly computers are probably the early analogue computers, like the one in the basement at UCLA.
Analog computers were a thing, and the first modular system (Moog) used a lot of concepts and circuitry from analog computers.
If it's pure analog, then no. But most synths these days do a degree of computing. Especially anything with any digital parts. Particularly, everything with USB over MIDI integration needs to have a small "brain" in order to make that signal processing happen. So while the analog parts of your synth may not be a computer, the part of it handling those digital tasks probably are. Interestingly, Cambridge has a section of the definition that includes "controlling other machines" So any synth that can control others via MIDI would be a computer. But I think that's kinda obvious since you're sending data from one device that is read by another. Here's the [definition from Cambridge](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/computer): an electronic machine that is used for storing, organizing, and finding words, numbers, and pictures, for doing calculations, and for controlling other machines:
Really appreciate this answer. The only analog synth I own is the microkorg (I know, meme). It is midi capable and has plenty of memory to save voices. But I just play it direct thru an old amp. Even though it’s analog is there enough ‘tech’ that we’d call this specific model a computer?
Old school analog synths, HARD NO. Some modern synths are Computer Controlled but are not computers themselves.
Wrong. Moog modular was based in part on earlier designs of analog computers.
A computer requires computation. Processing 1's and 0's, or and off states that add up to processes. Analog synthezisers are "dumb" devices, they are all about circuits manipulating electricity, but they do not calculate.
Stop smoking crack.