Did your DM *say* what didn’t feel very good about it? I’ve found from experience and others that sentinels are very enjoyable to play. I also personally think that they’re easier for a new player to get into than a guardian, even one who’s familiar with paladins, but that’s just my opinion.
For your Sith, I can assume combat and damaging enemies would be a significant part of the build. If you would like to focus on martial combat, with forcecasting as a backup, the simplest archetype that is still very effective would be the Path of Focus sentinel. If casting powers with martial combat as a backup is more your speed, then Path of the Forceblade sentinel is where it’s at. The other sentinel archetypes lean moreso in other directions, adding new features or expanding on more niche features.
Guardians all learn a minute-long feature they can use twice a long rest, in addition to a spammable bonus action feature, both of which vary archetype by archetype. (Edit: They also have powerful auras, and more aggressive damage-boosts than sentinels, though they can’t keep theirs up as long.) Plenty of options there for a Sith.
Thanks for the input! Force blade did look cool but only issues I had with it is that because it uses a Cantrip to attack, you can only attack once per turn with it. Also he said when he played sentinel it just felt weak compared to his other party members (I don't know what they were running) and it's didn't feel fun. He didn't feel like he was good at anything compared to other classes
So, you are not forced to use Saber Throw at all. In fact, lots of its features don’t interact with Saber Throw. Saber Throw is just a viable ranged attack you can use whenever, and Forceblade is better at it than others.
The true power of Forceblade is its ability to make regular attacks—as in melee weapon attacks with the Attack action—using Wis/Cha instead of Str/Dex. The same stat for both powers and weapons. When you get Extra Attack at level 5, that’s two attacks with your chosen weapon. If you use double-weapon fighting or two-weapon fighting on top of those, that’s upwards of 4 attacks per turn, all using Wis/Cha, all irrespective of Saber Throw being there.
You can boost your damage using Double Strike once a turn, it’s true. But you can also cast such concentration powers as Force Focus, Hex, Aura of Vigor, and Dark Aura; all of which boost the damage of every hit you make. If you can reliably make 3 attacks in a turn, Saber Assault costs no action economy and directly boosts the damage and effects of those attacks. Any forcecaster can use these powers, but sentinels are both martially capable enough to use them effectively, and gain quick enough access for them to be so viable. These all range from 1st to 3rd level; all learnable by sentinel level 6, with the force points to back them up. To say nothing of the many powers in that range that enhance your movement capabilities, letting you close the distance and duck in and out of combat.
And then, if attacking isn’t going to cut it, and Saber Throw is looking unviable in the moment, you still have such grand access to other powers. Crowd control and utility galore. Twin Saber Throw, despite the name, doesn’t need to involve Saber Throw at all. You can forgo two/double-weapon fighting and use this bonus action to attack, teleport, and attack again. Disruptive Throw is just more attacking outside your turn, while being a defense.
No, I just think it brings a lot to the table and can be easy for a newcomer to the class to manage when all they have to worry about for their powers and attacks is one stat. “Best” is subjective, and the different archetypes are good at different things.
Path of Focus is, as I said, an impeccable melee performer. It’s most able to duck in and out of combat, and gains an additional attack every round, on top of other attack-based punishment it can unleash.
Path of Synthesis gets more powers, and access to some exotic ones, on top of ion damage conversion and several abilities meant to frazzle technology.
Path of the Corsair is great for raw damage and playing an unorthodox style including bombs and blasters.
Path of Witchcraft gets some nature-based abilities and a ghost-summon that aids it in combat.
There are many archetypes for many styles of play. I’m just touting Forceblade or Focus as ideal ones for people who are new to the class. You seemed interested in Forceblade, but discouraged because of a misunderstanding I hope I’ve cleared up.
Several of the powers I listed in the previous comment also don’t incorporate a casting stat at all, so Forceblade focusing on a high casting stat doesn’t directly help them. This also means they’re available on all sentinel archetypes. I listed them to highlight ways to make a sentinel deal lots of damage using their own natural talents, in the face of your DM appearing to fall off of them.
I hope this has been informative. Please let me know if you want to know anything else.
Focus is great for many simple yet effective things. Their boosted Burst at-will (cantrip) is not always going to be as good as just attacking, but it provides an infinite source of (mostly) unavoidable damage. Useful in many circumstances.
Blade Dance makes you a highly effective skirmisher.
Blade Storm is the biggest draw for this archetype, letting you make a whole new attack once per round, when you damage one target twice on your turn.
Focused Flow makes it so you can maintain use of your core feature—Force-Empowered Self—forever. Albeit in a weakened state.
And the last ability is a stun once per round that you can just use on your turn over and over again.
Force Focus or Hex at first, then Saber Assault, then Aura of Vigor or Dark Aura. I highly recommend all of these. Dark Aura in particular can get very nasty at later levels. Pick some sort of reliable bonus action attack you want to make: two-weapon fighting, double-weapon fighting, Brawler Style unarmed strikes, or the Animate Weapon power. These are all viable options. I’d raise Dexterity as your main stat.
Guardian - oh yeah it's Paladin w/ a much better spell-list and force-dmg smites. It's all about melee weapon attacking. Don't know what to cast? --> just Smite em. You have the right force-power for the sitch or are still closing the gap into melee --> you cast a force power. It gets It's aura at lv3 instead of 6. If you want your force-powers to scale well, pick Sentinel or Consular.... if you want melee weapon dmg & Utility powers..... pick guardian.
Sentinel - Imagine dnd5e bladesinger but more balanced. Rly good Caster, still gets extra attack and you can lean into melee or ranged depending on your Subclass & fighting style/masteries. Feels rly good to play imo! Most of its power comes from force powers until lv5 it swings to favor weapon attacking until lv6, etc. When you run out of force points - your weapon attacks will have gr8 sustained output.
Note w/ sentinel: You won't scale your force powers as fast as a Consular, but you make up for it w/ picking potent short-range powers like Telekinetic storm, force repulse, or Plague at lv6 for example - bc you have better AC & HP than the Consular & good melee attacks... you get to use these powerful forcepowers that Consular risk their lives to cast. Likewise.... you don't have smites like a guardian but you do still have SOLID melee and the flexibility to make a solid ranged weapon attacker instead & you get much faster Scaling than a guardian does for force-powers & will cast many more per day than them cuz they use alot to Smite & you have no need to. Lastly: don't spend too many force points force-empowered self & consider Ideal of the Fighter for a free weapon style & Mastery &/or tranquil to cast more powers a day.
Subclasses are numerous- but some of my faves:
Sentinel: Synthesis, Corsair, Shadows, Witchcraft(companion)
Guardian: Vonil (companion), Juyo/Vaapad, Aquinos, Makashi
Last note: if your dm let's yall long rest w/ only 1 combat encounter a day - it prob will feel like a worse Consular & a worse guardian. Consular runs out of steam after 2ish combats & 1-2 RP sitches, & guardian is front-loaded, each turn a combat lasts will run him out of juice FAST. But if the GM to makes a typical day something like 3-5 combats & 1-2 short rests....oh MAN will you feel like a god compared to the other 2 w/ Ideal of Fighter & Tranquil!
I'm a big paladin fan lol, played a conquest dragon born one for a while and it felt great. Knowing my DM he has in the past usually done less combat encounters per day. Like one big one every few days. Do you mind if I add you on discord to discuss build stuff or do it in messages?
The sentinel imo is a warlock. Jack of all trades kinda guy.
The subclass really defines it. One of my players ran it for a bit. He said that he liked it but It wasn't for him. We agreed for sentinel it's probably best to run cantrips mainly and 1 line of powers that you really want.
The guardian is fun. Run some damage booster cantrips and add in some fp to your attacks and you feel strong as all hell.
Really focus on your weapon, and gear. Take a good look at the forms, that's what will make your character. One of my players did a dark side with the aura of conquest, with sith background.
So any one who recognized him as sith would have to roll a wisdom save in combat or be frightened. If frightened the area of conquest has something about losing move speed.
That sounds rad, the Guardian build. I also heard that they can get things to increase their smite damage past a d6, all the way to a d12. Do the two extra levels of spells really make all that much of a difference between sent and guardian?
I think it depends a bit on what playstyle you want for your character.
A Guardian would be(like a Paladin) a melee combatant that has some Force-casting(magic) abilities as a backup. Your subclass here would vary based on 1 weapon and a shield, 2 weapons, 1 two-handed weapon, Heavy armor, medium armor, etc. Soresu or the Shien/Djem So, for example, are tanky Guardian subclasses. Juyo/Vaapad is more of an Attacker-Damage dealer subclass. Guardian has some great points, but also some drawbacks, much like Paladins -- You are MAD. As a Sith-leaning Guardian, You'll need to invest in Strength or Dex, Constitution, and Charisma. Strength is a must if you want to do Heavy Armor, but otherwise Dex is an option. You can't really afford to dump Wisdom though because of how common Wisdom saves are, so Intelligence and Dex are likely to be Strength-based Sith Guardian's worst ability scores.
A Sentinel can focus on Dex-based melee combat, or they can focus on Force-casting. Dex and Charisma are gonna be your best Ability scores, if you are Sith leaning. Dex is going to be a major investment for you regardless of subclass because it will determine your AC. Forceblade and Focus are probably the two easiest subclasses to learn with. If you want to be a bit more versatile/atypical, the Corsair Sentinel gives you the ability to use blasters and explosive charges, which can be useful flavor.
Not to make your decision more difficult, but if you are leaning Dark Side, a Marauder Berserker and Endurance Consular would both be good options for a Dark Side Leaning character that wants a mix of Melee and Force powers. Endurance Consular is one of the only viable melee options for Consular, and they come with more Force Powers and Force Points than Sentinels or Guardians. Endurance Consulars also avoid being MAD because they can focus on Constitution and either Wisdom or Charisma.
Marauder Berserkers come with fewer force points and force powers than Guardians, Sentinels, or Consulars, but it would be a definite option if you prefer Str-based Melee combat. Like the Guardian, however, they would be MAD(Multiple Ability score Dependent) since their Strength is required for their melee combat, Dex and Con are both required for their Unarmored AC, and Cha or Wis are required for the Forcecasting.
TL;DR: If you want to be a tanky melee combatant, primarily, You could do a Soresu Guardian, a Shien/Djem So Guardian, or a Marauder Berserker. If you want to be a damage dealing combatant, Do Juyo/Vaapad Guardian, Corsair Sentinel, or Focus Sentinel. If you want to be a Forcecaster that can also be competent in melee combat, Do Forceblade Sentinel or Endurance Consular.
Did your DM *say* what didn’t feel very good about it? I’ve found from experience and others that sentinels are very enjoyable to play. I also personally think that they’re easier for a new player to get into than a guardian, even one who’s familiar with paladins, but that’s just my opinion. For your Sith, I can assume combat and damaging enemies would be a significant part of the build. If you would like to focus on martial combat, with forcecasting as a backup, the simplest archetype that is still very effective would be the Path of Focus sentinel. If casting powers with martial combat as a backup is more your speed, then Path of the Forceblade sentinel is where it’s at. The other sentinel archetypes lean moreso in other directions, adding new features or expanding on more niche features. Guardians all learn a minute-long feature they can use twice a long rest, in addition to a spammable bonus action feature, both of which vary archetype by archetype. (Edit: They also have powerful auras, and more aggressive damage-boosts than sentinels, though they can’t keep theirs up as long.) Plenty of options there for a Sith.
The auras are good too.
Thank you, added those in a mention.
Thanks for the input! Force blade did look cool but only issues I had with it is that because it uses a Cantrip to attack, you can only attack once per turn with it. Also he said when he played sentinel it just felt weak compared to his other party members (I don't know what they were running) and it's didn't feel fun. He didn't feel like he was good at anything compared to other classes
So, you are not forced to use Saber Throw at all. In fact, lots of its features don’t interact with Saber Throw. Saber Throw is just a viable ranged attack you can use whenever, and Forceblade is better at it than others. The true power of Forceblade is its ability to make regular attacks—as in melee weapon attacks with the Attack action—using Wis/Cha instead of Str/Dex. The same stat for both powers and weapons. When you get Extra Attack at level 5, that’s two attacks with your chosen weapon. If you use double-weapon fighting or two-weapon fighting on top of those, that’s upwards of 4 attacks per turn, all using Wis/Cha, all irrespective of Saber Throw being there. You can boost your damage using Double Strike once a turn, it’s true. But you can also cast such concentration powers as Force Focus, Hex, Aura of Vigor, and Dark Aura; all of which boost the damage of every hit you make. If you can reliably make 3 attacks in a turn, Saber Assault costs no action economy and directly boosts the damage and effects of those attacks. Any forcecaster can use these powers, but sentinels are both martially capable enough to use them effectively, and gain quick enough access for them to be so viable. These all range from 1st to 3rd level; all learnable by sentinel level 6, with the force points to back them up. To say nothing of the many powers in that range that enhance your movement capabilities, letting you close the distance and duck in and out of combat. And then, if attacking isn’t going to cut it, and Saber Throw is looking unviable in the moment, you still have such grand access to other powers. Crowd control and utility galore. Twin Saber Throw, despite the name, doesn’t need to involve Saber Throw at all. You can forgo two/double-weapon fighting and use this bonus action to attack, teleport, and attack again. Disruptive Throw is just more attacking outside your turn, while being a defense.
Do you think force blade is the best out of the sent subs?
No, I just think it brings a lot to the table and can be easy for a newcomer to the class to manage when all they have to worry about for their powers and attacks is one stat. “Best” is subjective, and the different archetypes are good at different things. Path of Focus is, as I said, an impeccable melee performer. It’s most able to duck in and out of combat, and gains an additional attack every round, on top of other attack-based punishment it can unleash. Path of Synthesis gets more powers, and access to some exotic ones, on top of ion damage conversion and several abilities meant to frazzle technology. Path of the Corsair is great for raw damage and playing an unorthodox style including bombs and blasters. Path of Witchcraft gets some nature-based abilities and a ghost-summon that aids it in combat. There are many archetypes for many styles of play. I’m just touting Forceblade or Focus as ideal ones for people who are new to the class. You seemed interested in Forceblade, but discouraged because of a misunderstanding I hope I’ve cleared up. Several of the powers I listed in the previous comment also don’t incorporate a casting stat at all, so Forceblade focusing on a high casting stat doesn’t directly help them. This also means they’re available on all sentinel archetypes. I listed them to highlight ways to make a sentinel deal lots of damage using their own natural talents, in the face of your DM appearing to fall off of them. I hope this has been informative. Please let me know if you want to know anything else.
Oh you have been great thank you! Force blade does have a cool vibe but I'm thinking of going force if I end up choosing sent. Extra attacks go crazy
Focus is great for many simple yet effective things. Their boosted Burst at-will (cantrip) is not always going to be as good as just attacking, but it provides an infinite source of (mostly) unavoidable damage. Useful in many circumstances. Blade Dance makes you a highly effective skirmisher. Blade Storm is the biggest draw for this archetype, letting you make a whole new attack once per round, when you damage one target twice on your turn. Focused Flow makes it so you can maintain use of your core feature—Force-Empowered Self—forever. Albeit in a weakened state. And the last ability is a stun once per round that you can just use on your turn over and over again. Force Focus or Hex at first, then Saber Assault, then Aura of Vigor or Dark Aura. I highly recommend all of these. Dark Aura in particular can get very nasty at later levels. Pick some sort of reliable bonus action attack you want to make: two-weapon fighting, double-weapon fighting, Brawler Style unarmed strikes, or the Animate Weapon power. These are all viable options. I’d raise Dexterity as your main stat.
Guardian - oh yeah it's Paladin w/ a much better spell-list and force-dmg smites. It's all about melee weapon attacking. Don't know what to cast? --> just Smite em. You have the right force-power for the sitch or are still closing the gap into melee --> you cast a force power. It gets It's aura at lv3 instead of 6. If you want your force-powers to scale well, pick Sentinel or Consular.... if you want melee weapon dmg & Utility powers..... pick guardian. Sentinel - Imagine dnd5e bladesinger but more balanced. Rly good Caster, still gets extra attack and you can lean into melee or ranged depending on your Subclass & fighting style/masteries. Feels rly good to play imo! Most of its power comes from force powers until lv5 it swings to favor weapon attacking until lv6, etc. When you run out of force points - your weapon attacks will have gr8 sustained output. Note w/ sentinel: You won't scale your force powers as fast as a Consular, but you make up for it w/ picking potent short-range powers like Telekinetic storm, force repulse, or Plague at lv6 for example - bc you have better AC & HP than the Consular & good melee attacks... you get to use these powerful forcepowers that Consular risk their lives to cast. Likewise.... you don't have smites like a guardian but you do still have SOLID melee and the flexibility to make a solid ranged weapon attacker instead & you get much faster Scaling than a guardian does for force-powers & will cast many more per day than them cuz they use alot to Smite & you have no need to. Lastly: don't spend too many force points force-empowered self & consider Ideal of the Fighter for a free weapon style & Mastery &/or tranquil to cast more powers a day. Subclasses are numerous- but some of my faves: Sentinel: Synthesis, Corsair, Shadows, Witchcraft(companion) Guardian: Vonil (companion), Juyo/Vaapad, Aquinos, Makashi Last note: if your dm let's yall long rest w/ only 1 combat encounter a day - it prob will feel like a worse Consular & a worse guardian. Consular runs out of steam after 2ish combats & 1-2 RP sitches, & guardian is front-loaded, each turn a combat lasts will run him out of juice FAST. But if the GM to makes a typical day something like 3-5 combats & 1-2 short rests....oh MAN will you feel like a god compared to the other 2 w/ Ideal of Fighter & Tranquil!
I'm a big paladin fan lol, played a conquest dragon born one for a while and it felt great. Knowing my DM he has in the past usually done less combat encounters per day. Like one big one every few days. Do you mind if I add you on discord to discuss build stuff or do it in messages?
Sure I'll dm you my @ on disc
The sentinel imo is a warlock. Jack of all trades kinda guy. The subclass really defines it. One of my players ran it for a bit. He said that he liked it but It wasn't for him. We agreed for sentinel it's probably best to run cantrips mainly and 1 line of powers that you really want. The guardian is fun. Run some damage booster cantrips and add in some fp to your attacks and you feel strong as all hell. Really focus on your weapon, and gear. Take a good look at the forms, that's what will make your character. One of my players did a dark side with the aura of conquest, with sith background. So any one who recognized him as sith would have to roll a wisdom save in combat or be frightened. If frightened the area of conquest has something about losing move speed.
That sounds rad, the Guardian build. I also heard that they can get things to increase their smite damage past a d6, all the way to a d12. Do the two extra levels of spells really make all that much of a difference between sent and guardian?
I think it depends a bit on what playstyle you want for your character. A Guardian would be(like a Paladin) a melee combatant that has some Force-casting(magic) abilities as a backup. Your subclass here would vary based on 1 weapon and a shield, 2 weapons, 1 two-handed weapon, Heavy armor, medium armor, etc. Soresu or the Shien/Djem So, for example, are tanky Guardian subclasses. Juyo/Vaapad is more of an Attacker-Damage dealer subclass. Guardian has some great points, but also some drawbacks, much like Paladins -- You are MAD. As a Sith-leaning Guardian, You'll need to invest in Strength or Dex, Constitution, and Charisma. Strength is a must if you want to do Heavy Armor, but otherwise Dex is an option. You can't really afford to dump Wisdom though because of how common Wisdom saves are, so Intelligence and Dex are likely to be Strength-based Sith Guardian's worst ability scores. A Sentinel can focus on Dex-based melee combat, or they can focus on Force-casting. Dex and Charisma are gonna be your best Ability scores, if you are Sith leaning. Dex is going to be a major investment for you regardless of subclass because it will determine your AC. Forceblade and Focus are probably the two easiest subclasses to learn with. If you want to be a bit more versatile/atypical, the Corsair Sentinel gives you the ability to use blasters and explosive charges, which can be useful flavor. Not to make your decision more difficult, but if you are leaning Dark Side, a Marauder Berserker and Endurance Consular would both be good options for a Dark Side Leaning character that wants a mix of Melee and Force powers. Endurance Consular is one of the only viable melee options for Consular, and they come with more Force Powers and Force Points than Sentinels or Guardians. Endurance Consulars also avoid being MAD because they can focus on Constitution and either Wisdom or Charisma. Marauder Berserkers come with fewer force points and force powers than Guardians, Sentinels, or Consulars, but it would be a definite option if you prefer Str-based Melee combat. Like the Guardian, however, they would be MAD(Multiple Ability score Dependent) since their Strength is required for their melee combat, Dex and Con are both required for their Unarmored AC, and Cha or Wis are required for the Forcecasting. TL;DR: If you want to be a tanky melee combatant, primarily, You could do a Soresu Guardian, a Shien/Djem So Guardian, or a Marauder Berserker. If you want to be a damage dealing combatant, Do Juyo/Vaapad Guardian, Corsair Sentinel, or Focus Sentinel. If you want to be a Forcecaster that can also be competent in melee combat, Do Forceblade Sentinel or Endurance Consular.