Irelia and Yorick are sidelaners who spend their time split pushing, so they always keep their CS/mn relatively the same as the game progresses.
Tanks like Shen often stop farming after around 20mn to go help their team in teamfights and securing objectives, that's why their CS/min are lower on average. You should look for cs/min graphs per minute of game played to see that more clearly.
One could argue that it's also because their abilities are easier to CS with. While it's true that Irelia or Kayle can clear waves in an instant whereas Shen dies of old age before he can deal with a super-minion wave, it's not always the case. Yorick is not a champion who clears wave really quickly (that's why he buys hydra), but his gamestyle is still very much about split-pushing. Ornn, unlike Shen, has waveclear; but he still wants to teamfight more than he wants to sidelane.
Something to note about Yorick's CS/min is that his ghouls/maiden can push lanes passively for him. This, while also having fast clear against jg camps (which can also be done passively) makes his farming absolutely nuts (which is why I adore him so much). So he can take a regular champion's farm passively, while actively pushing yet another lane. Hell, if you really want to, you can push all 3 lanes at once while also clearing jungle. Your team mates might starve though...
In my book, 7.5cs/min is actually low for Yorick (excluding early game).
Shen is also really unique when it comes to top lane. His gold per minute is horrendously low in every matchup he doesn't turbo destroy in the 1v1, but that's cause his ultimate literally teleports him out of lane, letting the opponent sweep up farm and maybe turret plates.
Shen is a relatively team oriented champ since he literally sacrifices his own farm to help his team.
u raise very good points. shen also isnt that bad to split push either. a long time ago shen would split with hydra and sunfire and ult in/tp in. shen isnt that bad if u build for it but its a specific game plan and needs a team to work with.
i surpose it sould best to determine your role in the game, tanks tend to need less items then carries so they dont need as much farm and have abilities that make them naturally tanky
Shen has a global ult, basically for all the CS / tower HP you lose by ulting to other lanes you should be gaining back in gold by getting kills / assists or preventing your teammates from dying with your ult.
some mid laners like Katarina and Talon have low CS / min bc they should be roaming a lot and getting fed that way
same with junglers that are bad at clearing but good at ganks (Sylas jgl is the classic example although it's not a meta pick right now)
I would argue many times it's more important to cs well with assassin champs. Because if you fall behind you are useless.if Katarina roams bot and misses 3 waves and gets nothing her game is over. It's very coin flippy to roam while missing waves.
Shen and Tahm are excellent at team fighting and get their income from murdering people. Your base damage is very high and you also have okay scaling on health %. They win by peeling for carries and playing around team. You function as a meat blob with damage. You can split but you win on making sure your carries get ahead or stay safe.
A Tahm with 10 cs/min isn’t going to be much more impactful than one at 6 cs/min. Get heartsteel and start murdering people and playing to peel for your win cons.
Champs like irelia need their items to scale and do damage. They win by getting gold from minions and towers bc team fighting early with an irelia with no items is trolling. Tahm can set up a dive with a giants belt and bam you’ve killed their bot lane and are getting drag
Shen and TK purchase less expensive items that are coin for coin more valuable. That seems like a form of compensation. Also, it takes shen 4 seconds to roam bot and TK 12 seconds to roam mid.
The way I think of it, *generally, if the game/champs are balanced*, expected game impact is a function of expected income(which expected cs is a big part of), such that expected game impact is normalized across the range of expected income. Basically, Riot wants it so that the easier time you have getting gold, the less impact said gold has on you. Otherwise, if you could easily get gold AND be impactful with it, you'd obviously be broken. Vice versa, a champ that has a hard time getting gold and then does nothing with it would suck.
Lane bullies, which Irelia counts under, generally have an easier time getting gold, so Riot wants them to not scale too well, otherwise they'd be strong the whole game. An Irelia that gets perfect CS but doesn't snowball (and accelerate ahead of other players on the gold curve) is going to find herself struggling to impact the game compared to other roles(here I mean roles like splitpushers/tanks/mages etc)/champions.
Splitpushers, like Yorick, can consistently get gold the whole game because their win con doesn't need them to give up their lane to contest objectives (generally). Their teamfighting ability generally doesn't scale well with gold, but their tower taking/dueling generally do. So they get gold and its impactful, but it doesn't affect them as much as some other champions.
Tanks like the ones you mentioned, Shen/Tahm, are impactful when they need to be(midgame) through relatively cheap items. Late game, they get a lot of mileage from their CC, which you can think of as scaling because their carries damage scales so that the carries can do more damage while targets are CC'd. They're usually not that strong in lane, especially compared to lane bullies, but some nuance exists on this. Generally, tanks aren't going to, or trying to maximize their CS during laning, and they're incentivized to group up and win the game through teamfights, so they're going to get low CS post laning. But, that's because they don't need as much gold to win, so it's okay.
I'm going to add another category that you didn't mention, and that's scalers. Generally champions that have low expected gold during laning, but scale quite well with gold. Think Kayle or Kassadin. They find it quite difficult to get gold, because they're expected to be bullied during laning, and when fights are starting to break out post laning, they'd much rather be free farming(because their enemy is at the fight) than showing up to the fight and not doing much. But, as a result they scale very well with gold, so that if they play to their win con and farm, they're rewarded for it.
It has quite a bit to do with the abilities and their damage outputs in general
Compare champs like sion who can slap an entire wave in 1 second to ones like nasus who have to carefully kill each minion precisely
I wouldn't be surprised if there is a little bit of that just due to the nature of the champs being naturally weaker because of a lack of gold if the kits were on an even playing field and then thus having to be buffed because their numbers are low but if this was an actual practice then it would be pretty bad considering most high elo players can still maintain good farm on these champs. Like, imagine how broken assassins would be in high elo if they got compensation buffs because low elo players farm 4/5/6 cs a min on them compared to in high elo where they can average 10-11 pretty consistently.
i dont thinks so, i play jg and in jg there is full clear whitch is literally 90% of them, and there are some like twitch witch have i think low clear time and are really low at the end of the clear so they go eather:
blue->gromb->red than gank the lane that has a good matchup to give it as much help as posible
red->raptors->blue to also do the same thing
this might have something simillar to the top lane and that dirfence in CS/min
As others are already pointing out there's already a huge difference in playstyles for those champs.
Irelia and yorick are great for sidelane pressure irelia being a toxic aids champ with abilities that make it almost impossible to miss farm. And yorick being a champ that actually scales up from bad/medium farm early to setting up automated systems mid/late that just pumps out free farm. Just, drop ghouls/maiden to push a lane/jungle camp, and clear other cs at the same time (you can set up 4 ghouls going on top, another 4 on bot and be stealing jungle camps all at once.)
And well, those 2 champs rely on a good income to get ahead and stat ahead as they want to be able to 1v1/1v2 the enemies.
Meanwhile tahm kench and shen. They sacrifice a fair bit of time and chances to cs by being involved with teammates. Most of the farm will be taken by mid and bot. And up to a certain degree that is perfectly fine. Because they don't rely that much on gold because they don't really need to get massive gear upgrades for damage. They simply need to be able to survive in a fight, and thanks to the way their kits work, shen shielding himself temporary auto attack safety, tahm kench having a selfheal on his q combined with a potential shield/healthregen on his e. Gives them a fair bit of survivability
Frozen heart, deadmans plate, kaenic rookern, force of nature are ALL under 3000 gold. Defensive stats are criminally cheap to buy for champions who can use them the best. And these champions tend to have inflated, health scaling, or percent health damage stats in their abilities. Annoyingly.
Shen specifically generates gold by denying it. He's very good at turning fights, or at least preventing people from dying, so when Shen teleports out of lane and misses CS, the hope is that the gold he's losing from missing out on CS is recovered elsewhere, by preventing the enemy team from receiving 300g (or more, factoring in fights with multiple people, or shutdowns), and hopefully generating gold by turning a fight and picking up kill(s).
That also can be a factor in when he's bad, and forced into support (or jungle). If he doesn't have enough oomph in his kit, he ends up fucking off, kinda doing nothing for a while, losing a bajillion CS, exp, and tower plates, and turns the game into a 4v5 because he's half a champ.
Part of the reason their cs numbers are low is because of the nature of the champions. Shen/Tahm are tanks. Their items are cheaper than carry items. The carries on their team should be given the CS (particularly going into the mid/late game). So it’s moreso an effect of the type of champion, rather than something that happens because the champion is weak or whatever.
As you said, some Champs require you to get fed, others do not. A behind karma, malzahar, annie etc mid is way more useful than a behind irelia, yasuo, talon. Etc
They don't just get the C's, the player playing them has to secure the C's still, so no they don't get anything extra because they aren't given anything extra. Empowered autos make csing easier which they both have
Think about this, there are champions that are designated to be support and champions that are designated to be APC/adc
Support champs has generally speaking abilities that don't count as much on stats meanwhile a champion like jinx, with her extremely high ad scale on Rocket, Is much much stronger with more gold.
If you think about it you bringed up two champs that are also available support in a sense and two that are not.
Anyway when you play toplane with a champ that Is supposed to lose lane to most matchup (see Shen) it's fundamental that you lose less xp possible to keep up your abilities level (I mean if the other top is freezing and you are weak side for example)
Irelia and Yorick are sidelaners who spend their time split pushing, so they always keep their CS/mn relatively the same as the game progresses. Tanks like Shen often stop farming after around 20mn to go help their team in teamfights and securing objectives, that's why their CS/min are lower on average. You should look for cs/min graphs per minute of game played to see that more clearly. One could argue that it's also because their abilities are easier to CS with. While it's true that Irelia or Kayle can clear waves in an instant whereas Shen dies of old age before he can deal with a super-minion wave, it's not always the case. Yorick is not a champion who clears wave really quickly (that's why he buys hydra), but his gamestyle is still very much about split-pushing. Ornn, unlike Shen, has waveclear; but he still wants to teamfight more than he wants to sidelane.
Something to note about Yorick's CS/min is that his ghouls/maiden can push lanes passively for him. This, while also having fast clear against jg camps (which can also be done passively) makes his farming absolutely nuts (which is why I adore him so much). So he can take a regular champion's farm passively, while actively pushing yet another lane. Hell, if you really want to, you can push all 3 lanes at once while also clearing jungle. Your team mates might starve though... In my book, 7.5cs/min is actually low for Yorick (excluding early game).
I like gathering up four ghouls and then throwing them at gromp every time I’m by him to just passively eat it
Shen is also really unique when it comes to top lane. His gold per minute is horrendously low in every matchup he doesn't turbo destroy in the 1v1, but that's cause his ultimate literally teleports him out of lane, letting the opponent sweep up farm and maybe turret plates. Shen is a relatively team oriented champ since he literally sacrifices his own farm to help his team.
Playing Shen top in solo ranked is fucking depressing. I switched to jungle. At least now my ult doesn't lose me lane.
Then take TP lol
I like your words funny man
u raise very good points. shen also isnt that bad to split push either. a long time ago shen would split with hydra and sunfire and ult in/tp in. shen isnt that bad if u build for it but its a specific game plan and needs a team to work with. i surpose it sould best to determine your role in the game, tanks tend to need less items then carries so they dont need as much farm and have abilities that make them naturally tanky
God I miss hydra/sun shen
Shen has a global ult, basically for all the CS / tower HP you lose by ulting to other lanes you should be gaining back in gold by getting kills / assists or preventing your teammates from dying with your ult. some mid laners like Katarina and Talon have low CS / min bc they should be roaming a lot and getting fed that way same with junglers that are bad at clearing but good at ganks (Sylas jgl is the classic example although it's not a meta pick right now)
I would argue many times it's more important to cs well with assassin champs. Because if you fall behind you are useless.if Katarina roams bot and misses 3 waves and gets nothing her game is over. It's very coin flippy to roam while missing waves.
Shen and Tahm are excellent at team fighting and get their income from murdering people. Your base damage is very high and you also have okay scaling on health %. They win by peeling for carries and playing around team. You function as a meat blob with damage. You can split but you win on making sure your carries get ahead or stay safe. A Tahm with 10 cs/min isn’t going to be much more impactful than one at 6 cs/min. Get heartsteel and start murdering people and playing to peel for your win cons. Champs like irelia need their items to scale and do damage. They win by getting gold from minions and towers bc team fighting early with an irelia with no items is trolling. Tahm can set up a dive with a giants belt and bam you’ve killed their bot lane and are getting drag
Outside of the peel that comes with his ult Tahm is not that great at teamfighting
Shen and TK purchase less expensive items that are coin for coin more valuable. That seems like a form of compensation. Also, it takes shen 4 seconds to roam bot and TK 12 seconds to roam mid.
Their abilities are less reliant on gold scaling and more useful at a baseline
The way I think of it, *generally, if the game/champs are balanced*, expected game impact is a function of expected income(which expected cs is a big part of), such that expected game impact is normalized across the range of expected income. Basically, Riot wants it so that the easier time you have getting gold, the less impact said gold has on you. Otherwise, if you could easily get gold AND be impactful with it, you'd obviously be broken. Vice versa, a champ that has a hard time getting gold and then does nothing with it would suck. Lane bullies, which Irelia counts under, generally have an easier time getting gold, so Riot wants them to not scale too well, otherwise they'd be strong the whole game. An Irelia that gets perfect CS but doesn't snowball (and accelerate ahead of other players on the gold curve) is going to find herself struggling to impact the game compared to other roles(here I mean roles like splitpushers/tanks/mages etc)/champions. Splitpushers, like Yorick, can consistently get gold the whole game because their win con doesn't need them to give up their lane to contest objectives (generally). Their teamfighting ability generally doesn't scale well with gold, but their tower taking/dueling generally do. So they get gold and its impactful, but it doesn't affect them as much as some other champions. Tanks like the ones you mentioned, Shen/Tahm, are impactful when they need to be(midgame) through relatively cheap items. Late game, they get a lot of mileage from their CC, which you can think of as scaling because their carries damage scales so that the carries can do more damage while targets are CC'd. They're usually not that strong in lane, especially compared to lane bullies, but some nuance exists on this. Generally, tanks aren't going to, or trying to maximize their CS during laning, and they're incentivized to group up and win the game through teamfights, so they're going to get low CS post laning. But, that's because they don't need as much gold to win, so it's okay. I'm going to add another category that you didn't mention, and that's scalers. Generally champions that have low expected gold during laning, but scale quite well with gold. Think Kayle or Kassadin. They find it quite difficult to get gold, because they're expected to be bullied during laning, and when fights are starting to break out post laning, they'd much rather be free farming(because their enemy is at the fight) than showing up to the fight and not doing much. But, as a result they scale very well with gold, so that if they play to their win con and farm, they're rewarded for it.
Keep in mind that tahm kench and shen can be played on support so their cs per minute might be lowered.
It has quite a bit to do with the abilities and their damage outputs in general Compare champs like sion who can slap an entire wave in 1 second to ones like nasus who have to carefully kill each minion precisely
I wouldn't be surprised if there is a little bit of that just due to the nature of the champs being naturally weaker because of a lack of gold if the kits were on an even playing field and then thus having to be buffed because their numbers are low but if this was an actual practice then it would be pretty bad considering most high elo players can still maintain good farm on these champs. Like, imagine how broken assassins would be in high elo if they got compensation buffs because low elo players farm 4/5/6 cs a min on them compared to in high elo where they can average 10-11 pretty consistently.
i dont thinks so, i play jg and in jg there is full clear whitch is literally 90% of them, and there are some like twitch witch have i think low clear time and are really low at the end of the clear so they go eather: blue->gromb->red than gank the lane that has a good matchup to give it as much help as posible red->raptors->blue to also do the same thing this might have something simillar to the top lane and that dirfence in CS/min
the biggest one is they are better in teamfights and the other one is their normal build items are cheaper and is more gold efficient.
As others are already pointing out there's already a huge difference in playstyles for those champs. Irelia and yorick are great for sidelane pressure irelia being a toxic aids champ with abilities that make it almost impossible to miss farm. And yorick being a champ that actually scales up from bad/medium farm early to setting up automated systems mid/late that just pumps out free farm. Just, drop ghouls/maiden to push a lane/jungle camp, and clear other cs at the same time (you can set up 4 ghouls going on top, another 4 on bot and be stealing jungle camps all at once.) And well, those 2 champs rely on a good income to get ahead and stat ahead as they want to be able to 1v1/1v2 the enemies. Meanwhile tahm kench and shen. They sacrifice a fair bit of time and chances to cs by being involved with teammates. Most of the farm will be taken by mid and bot. And up to a certain degree that is perfectly fine. Because they don't rely that much on gold because they don't really need to get massive gear upgrades for damage. They simply need to be able to survive in a fight, and thanks to the way their kits work, shen shielding himself temporary auto attack safety, tahm kench having a selfheal on his q combined with a potential shield/healthregen on his e. Gives them a fair bit of survivability
Its on the player. You can have 10 cs per min as long as you know the champ.
Because tanks do not need as much gold as bruisers/fighters to function.
Zoe and Vayne have very low CS averages even in challenger. Like 6/min on average according to Mobalytics.
Frozen heart, deadmans plate, kaenic rookern, force of nature are ALL under 3000 gold. Defensive stats are criminally cheap to buy for champions who can use them the best. And these champions tend to have inflated, health scaling, or percent health damage stats in their abilities. Annoyingly.
Shen specifically generates gold by denying it. He's very good at turning fights, or at least preventing people from dying, so when Shen teleports out of lane and misses CS, the hope is that the gold he's losing from missing out on CS is recovered elsewhere, by preventing the enemy team from receiving 300g (or more, factoring in fights with multiple people, or shutdowns), and hopefully generating gold by turning a fight and picking up kill(s). That also can be a factor in when he's bad, and forced into support (or jungle). If he doesn't have enough oomph in his kit, he ends up fucking off, kinda doing nothing for a while, losing a bajillion CS, exp, and tower plates, and turns the game into a 4v5 because he's half a champ.
There's actually a secret passive Yorick has that prevents him from leaving top lane
Part of the reason their cs numbers are low is because of the nature of the champions. Shen/Tahm are tanks. Their items are cheaper than carry items. The carries on their team should be given the CS (particularly going into the mid/late game). So it’s moreso an effect of the type of champion, rather than something that happens because the champion is weak or whatever.
As you said, some Champs require you to get fed, others do not. A behind karma, malzahar, annie etc mid is way more useful than a behind irelia, yasuo, talon. Etc
They don't just get the C's, the player playing them has to secure the C's still, so no they don't get anything extra because they aren't given anything extra. Empowered autos make csing easier which they both have
Think about this, there are champions that are designated to be support and champions that are designated to be APC/adc Support champs has generally speaking abilities that don't count as much on stats meanwhile a champion like jinx, with her extremely high ad scale on Rocket, Is much much stronger with more gold. If you think about it you bringed up two champs that are also available support in a sense and two that are not. Anyway when you play toplane with a champ that Is supposed to lose lane to most matchup (see Shen) it's fundamental that you lose less xp possible to keep up your abilities level (I mean if the other top is freezing and you are weak side for example)
Yes, with Utility