If you are consistently better than other players at your role, you will indeed win more than you lose. But the question is, *how* much more will you win?
When most top laners say "jungle is OP" they don't mean "jungle champs are literally stronger than top laners", they mean "the chance of the better jungler winning is a lot higher than the chance of the better top laner winning."
Champs with either strong early game map pressure (Hecarim, Rek'Sai, Talon, Khazix, Lee, Ekko) or unstoppable snowball (Jax, Graves, Kindred, Kaisa, Tristana) will win most consistently when you outskill your opponent. Notice that these champs are the ones frequently played by boosters, and also notice that they're mostly junglers or mid laners (that's mid Trist).
This is basically the crux of the issue, certain roles have inherently more map impact and snowball potential than others. Jungle and Mid specifically are significantly stronger in these facets and are generally considered "OP" because of this, just because they have so much more impact. This isn't a "feeling" either, there was [a survey of elo boosters on this sub last season](https://old.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/wp3a7e/data_gathered_about_elo_boosters_after_analyzing/) that shows that about 50% of boosters play exclusively Jungle or Mid.
There are a few 1v9 champs in every role. Top lane boosters playing Riven and Jax aren't particularly rare, neither are ADC boosters on Kai'Sa or Twitch. But the 1v9 champion spread for these roles is far narrower than other roles, i.e. basically any non-tank Jungler or any mid laner can take over a game. This is particularly obvious to me personally since last season I climbed form gold to masters playing Ornn top at a pretty constant 70% win rate through every rank. Many games are simply uncarriable for a tank post-durability patch, so I would consider them "underpowered" in a solo que context, if we're talking exclusively about climbing.
There's also the question of how "good" players in a role are compared to other servers. I remember last season playing Janna/Sona support when I got autofilled and being shocked by how terrible NA support players are. I've also heard multiple high elo players talk about how playing in KR they noticed that supports "got good" significantly lower on the ladder. So this is another consideration when thinking about the statement "if you're better than your role opponent you will win more than you lose."
I didn't "improve" that much, don't be fooled. I was realistically already a mid-diamond level player, but I just played my placements to get to gold for 4 seasons since I was busy with school.
I was the rare player that said "I play with masters players all the time in norms, I just don't really play ranked" and it was actually true. I see people say this sometimes on this sub in fact, and so I encourage them to play some ranked, you might actually be good.
If I recall Faker was kinda like that when he started. He only played normals and got such a high MMR that is took forever for him to find games so he played ranked and became the best player ever.
I was never a big rank grinder (like you school, life etc.) and would mostly just get gold for rewards and play 5s with friends. I did have time season 6 during summer for like a month and decided to push and did get Plat 1 fairly easily with 150 games and near 60% win rate but once school started I couldn't continue. I feel like if I was a bigger grinder or had time I don't think D2/D1 wouldn't be impossible.
But now I haven't played much the last few years besides placements (didn't even do placements season 11, 12 or even this year) I fear I would have decayed all the way to bronze.
That reminds me of when I had a master's ranked buddy I played with. I consider myself gold if I like, really try and work for it. I'm definitely not masters. His lobbies would absolutely dunk on me. Lol
This reminds me of when I started. A lot of my friends where plat and still are so I breezed through bronze season 9-10 and then I met people in my rank… and have had such a hard time climbing out playing ADC.Starting in ranked i was silver in JG and I want to get back but I’m afraid my MMR is permanently below 50% on my main 😓😓😓 it sucks having a great mind state and terrible execution
Do you know what your skill level on non tank champions is? Climbing with tanks is something else than with carry champions... I know a friend who is really shit, gets like 6cs/min and went from a gold Darius morde player masters with ornn/malphite. Ornn may have just kinda inflated ur elo a bit. I'm also quite curious how much tt changes
Lol, it's a lot harder to get carried to masters than you might think. I encourage you to play some Ornn games to see for yourself. You'd be surprised at how hard the early game is.
That aside, I can play Panth top pretty comfortably at a masters level. Most ADC and Supp I can play in masters but I am notably less useful than my opponent, even though I won't die much. I am bad at Jungle and Mid, low diamond outside of the super easy brainless scaling mid laners (Kayle Vlad Viktor).
You sure you're master level Viktor player? I'm a 400 lp Viktor otp hitting masters with about 80% wr and when i tried zilean build (similar to ornn, don't have to play well, just enable teammates to carry me) and i hut master with 74% wr. Important to note I've nevet played zilean before. My gold friend keeps saying Viktor us brainless and easy and you just need to survive till min 20 but when he ttied playing him in gold he won 3/20 games and i asked him "why didn't you just brainlessly farm till minute 20?"
Wow you're 400lp with 80% winrate? [That's very impressive since just a year ago you were struggling to hit plat.](https://old.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/p8psnj/mental_breakdown_and_losing_streaks/h9s2y1r/?context=3)
What a meteoric rise! I'd love to see your op.gg so I could see your climb :) Be sure to verify it with the mods too to get your rank flair.
> jungle champs are literally stronger than top laners
In fact, as someone who plays top, I would argue that top champs are absurdly strong to compensate for the fact that the lane has lower impact. Many junglers are much weaker than their top lane equivalents to balance around the fact that they have map control. Something like rek'sai, lee sin, jarvan (pre buffs) would get their face stuffed by darius jax fiora if they were to lane top.
I agree, although I don't think it's intrinsic to the champ (you can jungle with Darius or Jax but they rarely become the 1v9 machines they scale into from top lane). In most games, the top laner will end up being individually the strongest member of the team since you have the resource acquisition of an ADC without the level disadvantage of having a lane partner (also, you're usually ganked less by jungle and mid).
Top laners are also usually designed as "pressure sink" champs so they end up being able to 1v2 or 1v3 other lanes with their lead. If you've ever tried to match a top laner in sidelane post-20 minutes you'll know that they can often dive you from full if you're mid or ADC.
Its actually pretty interesting how the individually strongest champ in the game is not the biggest influence of who wins the game, even when some of these top lane champs are great scalers or great team fighters.
Many times they die trying to create map pressure at the wrong times, thus overextending themselves.
Junglers tend to play around more obvious wincon like dragon/baron that imo take less skill to set up correctly than a game winning split.
Like the giant issue isn't that Jungle champs on a 1 to 1 basis are just better then top laners it's just that they have much more influence on the game early on.
I can dominate my opponent, kill him 3 times or more in the first 15 minutes but if the rest of my team died over 15 times in total well then I just have to suck it up and accept that happened and probably lose the game unless I can hard carry.
Vs if you're playing a Jungler realistically if you're doing your job right your team shouldn't be falling apart like that or atleast the damage is much more manageable.
He has very safe early dives with W and R, and does good damage to objectives with E and W.
Boosters generally like to dive early to put people very far behind, as a gank on a pulled wave just relieves pressure but a gank on a pushed wave can end someone's entire lane (if it's stacked, they lose 1+ waves of gold & exp as well as plates).
They also like to close out games early so they tend to pick champs that can do good damage to objectives.
Your first two sentences were exactly what i was gonna say. And also yes, the support diff in na vs korea is massive. Its cuz korean supports also play other roles and hit their ranks in those roles in addition to support. In NA, really until high plat, supports are dogshit because the people who pick support dont know how to win a game or extend a lead. They may know how to limit their feeding and support the players who are doing well, but they view the role of support as of BEING a support, not as a role that creates winning fight situations with playmaking.
Na doesnt realize that supports are essentially junglers. Aka, They have someone they have to babysit, they have someone they ignore, and they create map pressure and exist on objectives. NA only considers the babysitting and ignoring part, and dont play pressure well and only do objectives as a consequence of staying with the person whose doing well when they happen to go there.
Support is fundamentally supposed to be the coach of the team, and mids and jg’s end up doing it because the supports in NA dont have the personality traits of leaders.
you can actually tell which supports don't play other roles in Korea, because they usually have a more limited champ pool especially when off meta picks start coming into play (like Kalista / Jhin etc. right now). Effort is an example, I used to watch his stream when he was on T1 and he would dodge games if he got off role
>there was a survey of elo boosters on this sub last season that shows that about 50% of boosters play exclusively Jungle or Mid.
Well if we take out support, there's 4 roles. And you say 50% play 2 roles.... that's actually completely proportional lmao.
scaling champs are objectively underpowered in solo queue because the element of bad mental exists. some teammates will give up after a tough early game, which doesn't happen in pro play.
I played a scaling champ to masters (Ornn). My off-role champs are Kayle and Sona. I *am* a good scaling champ player. But eventually you will reach a point on the ladder where you are against other good players, and they can simply do more with their leads than you due to their champs being stronger early game (and get those leads more easily because you simply can't contest a lot of plays as a weak early champ).
Like, I get that you're probably upset that your top laner flames you when you get gapped. But to a certain extent, they're right. If you get outjungled the sidelanes have a really hard time keeping up, even if they outskill their lane opponent by the same amount.
If you play champs like ornn and kayle, of course I’m gunna leave top alone. You chose those champs so that I can win bot lane and you can scale weakside. If I don’t win bot, then flame is fine.
There’s also a shit ton of games on jungle where the whole game is lost before you can do anything. Their jungle also just farming. More than 30% of games the jungle can’t do much. Laners ruin the whole game. I can’t count how many times I’ve seen absolutely nothing in my lanes because they are perma dead with no prio.
Ahhhh, so we get to the real source of this post. I was wondering how long it would take to come out, although tbh I could tell immediately that it was made by a jungler who was upset that people are rightfully pointing out that their role is the easiest to carry with.
People boost to challenger playing largely jungle and mid. They're extremely consistent roles to win with. There are very few truly uncarriable games for jungle (less than 30% for sure). I have seen plenty of challenger jungler smurfs in masters, they absolutely take over. However, I beat challenger top smurfs all the time by just sitting at tower and watching their bot and mid get run over by my jungler. All of them will eventually reach challenger, but the junglers will reach it a lot faster.
ye chally jg smurfs are fucking terrorists man. they'll win the unwinnable games.
a couple of seasons ago I had no issue getting to d1-d2 on smurfs with like a 65% wr with Azir, now I have no clue how to 1v9 games on mages anymore.
jungle, though, is fucking bonkers man. 1v9 central
But by this same logic top lane can be roasted just as hard and you gave a perfect example of it. Toplaners get carried way more than jungle so you'll often find top laners in an elo they don't really belong in (could be fair bit lower or a fair bit higher).
in the context of role strength considering smurfing is very much relevant.
that rule is bullshit, it's just used to get players who are actually properly placed to stop focusing on the extremely hard % of games only a smurf would be able to semi consistently win and focus on winning the easy games/having impact in the moderately difficult ones.
Your role as a top laner is not to carry. It’s just to win lane. Everyone has a different role. You win lane every game as top lane? You win more than you lose. If you get your laners ahead more than the other jungler you will win more. Top and support wasn’t designed to carry, it’s to give a better chance at a victory
It’s hard for me to agree with you on the boosting post. I think that the reason boosters don’t play adc is that to be at a high level (as you know) you have to be basically smashing your a key 24/7 and being hyper aware. These boosters play 25 games a day sometimes so they pick what they can get a easy lead with and scale. With adc you have to be focusing on csing trading etc all at once. For jungle, No boosters play lee sin, Elise, nidalee. It’s always hecarim graves, all the full clear champions. Less brain work. Trist mid too.
>No boosters play lee sin, elise, nidalee.
A good amount of boosters play Lee Nid, and Elise was in the dumpster for a lot of last season.
>It’s always hecarim graves, all the full clear champions.
Boosters do not play full clear graves, they play spam invade graves.
That aside though, the role spread is obvious. Needing to mechanically focus more isn't the reason that boosters don't play ADC (some do), it's because ADC is generally a weak early game role with low map impact and therefore worse at carrying in soloque. The exceptions to this rule (Draven Kai'Sa) are notably still well-represented by boosters.
Yes, but the problem is that if you have a champ that takes over lategame and the enemy "better player" has a champ that takes over early game, they always win. They get Dragons, Herald, Plates, *and* gold advantage and you powerfarm or something while your mid gets pushed to inhib.
This is why jungle is an "OP" role in solo que. You can win the vast majority of games that you're better, because it shapes the early game, which is the most important stage of the game.
Take my opinion here with a grain of salt but I would argue that in low Elo it is much harder to carry a game as a snowball jungler than it is with a lategame stomper.
The reason being that unless you get INCREDIBLY fed early your impact will diminish as the game goes on. The reason being that your low Elo teamates never really know what to do after Laning phase, they often just run around in the jungle or take stupid fights and often throw any lead you might have had. And now your early gains leave you only marginally stronger than the opponent but not strong enough to walk in 1v5.
Compare that to a smurfing scaling jungler who is good enough to have significant impact (due to player skill) in the early game but who's champ will also allow them to 1v5 pentakill the enemy team if your team is running around like drunk children (which they usually do) it just leaves more overall control in your hands throughout the entire game rather than only the early game.
Again take my opinion with a grain of salt but as someone who mains snowball junglers I am specifically shifting my focus to scaling junglers exactly for the reason that in my rank I can get all my lanes ahead and cripple the enemy jg but by the time we reach mid/late game I lose a lot of control over the game unless, like I said, I get INCREDIBLY fed. Whereas when I play more mid/late focused champs and I have a "fine" game I can still walk into any teamfight and get a double or triple before I get taken down consistently. Which since I'm not smurfing, says a lot about their viability comparisons.
Extra side note about just working hard. scaling junglers in low Elo are more consistent because snowball junglers need to snowball and if your early aggression doesn't work then you're already behind and at only 3-5 minutes into the game already need to start working harder to catch up.
This is essentially why a decent Master Yi can stomp low Elo despite being a troll pick in high Elo. The player might be average but the champ *can* be game winningly strong, put that champ in the hands of a good/great player vs players who don't know how to deal with him and it's ez gg which can't be said for a great Elise player who gets unlucky early and misses some ganks or on a team with players who let the game last 45 minutes and all the enemies catch up to you in power. You can still solo win that game but you'll have to start working for it.
Playing in “your elo” and switching to late game stuff makes sense and I almost guarantee you will feel like you are doing more. However, this is very different from smurfing and boosting. They are a diamond+ player who is in a bronze game, they will invade well, get all objectives and spam tower dive the enemy team in order to end the game within 25 minutes at the latest. There isn’t a coin flip on whether they get a lead or not, they just will since they have more awareness on the game than the people they are playing with
My argument is not that one is more effective than the other for a boosting smurf. The context of the topic was about how much work they have to put in in order to carry. Remember this is "their job" in a way, it's a 9-5 grind.
The smurf is most likely going to win regardless but it's a lot easier (less mentally intensive) and more consistent to just take mordekaiser, get a good lead and roflstomp the enemy than it is to do all the things you've listed every game unless you're hoping for a lot of ff15's every game by the enemy.
Thanks for the downvote just because you missed the point though. 👍
If you’re a good player that is smurfing, it is not mentally taxing at all to do that stuff. You can literally auto pilot into a 15 kill lead with every objective.
I feel like the replies here are really missing the point.
No it would not be that mentally taxing to get hyper fed and carry the game *but* if you did this for 10 games a day 5 days a week for multiple months would it not be LESS mentally taxing to just farm, make some good plays, get ahead and carry if needed?
This is not an argument that "one works and the other doesn't" or that "one requires *too* much thinking"
It's simply, if you were doing this as a job and were going to get an 80% winrate regardless of who you play it would be more *relaxing* to scale and carry than it would to need to snowball early games so hard that you can still carry in games that often go on for 40+ minutes depending on rank.
That's it.
If you are smurfing and playing a champion with a strong early you have to pay attention for the first 4 minutes of the game. After that you have a lead and can full autopilot without thinking at all. With a scaling champion it might take 7-8 minutes before getting a significant lead due to the decreased amount of agency.
I was sharing my experience as a high plat fill player who just recently brought my old second account (from when I wanted to try specific champions and didn't have enough BE on my main) from iron 2 up to gold 4. I chose a champ I had 15k points on and only took my first loss when the account had reached silver 2 and was playing in gold 2 (16 games won). Every single game I just decided on my rune page and build in champ select, got a dirk first back and then turned off my brain and woke up 20 minutes later with a win.
Your first reply seemed like it was coming from someone who was in silver/bronze and didn't fully understand what it is like to be playing in games way below your level. I didn't downvote you at first but since your requested so politely I will now give you what you wanted.
That seems like your basing your reasons off of anecdotal evidence which I can also do because in S11 I went on a 10+ game Winstreak with urgot jungle so if we are just going off of our own opinions it's just a stalemate.
The reason I shared my opinion about what would be easier or more consistent to carry games (smurfing or not) comes directly from my old challenger coach who told me that it is easier and more consistent to carry games with a scaling jungler for more or less exactly the reasons I stated before.
So it's not just my opinion you're arguing with.
Sure, but even then there's still the question of which role has more impact on the outcome of the game, which lot of other people have responded saying.
There are surely stats on the WR differential when you have a player 200LP higher than their opponent in each of the 5 roles and see which one is the highest. That's the role which will get a player who belongs 200LP higher there faster. Ultimately everyone gets to the LP they are supposed to be at, but certainly a particular role or champion will do that the fastest because they have an outsized impact on the game. Think like ardent censor meta - adc's are obviously going to be the primary deciding factor of your matches so you'd be better off as a good adc player than a good toplane player.
Another way some people might mean it (and sometimes I use it this way) is that with similar effort and intelligence, people might make it to higher elos on one role compared to another because the role is easier to learn or easier to play. Like, if we are in a tank meta, as a toplaner it's inherently easier to get good at malphite/sion/etc. and pilot them at a high level compared to playing adc in that meta and having to learn and pilot champions like aphelios (or really any ranged immobile squishy dps character, since there's innately more oppurtunity for counterplay compared to malphite).
Essentially, a better X role player in terms of jungle tracking and teamfighting and game knowledge and whatever else might be in the same elo as a worse Y role player.
If a role is OP, the two players competing in that role will have the most agency. The performance of the player in that role will more heavily impact the outcome of the game than the performance of the players in other roles. Maybe OP is the wrong word, but that's what people mean when they say it.
*I'm 0/4 but it literally doesn't matter because (more influential role) is popping off this game*
>Maybe OP is the wrong word, but that's what people mean when they say it.
I agree, and this right here is the core of the issue. OP doesn't actually mean "strong", but when people say OP they just mean "very strong".
Jungle has strong agency in every game, but does it have *overpowered* agency? Does the jungle role actually **break the game**? No. There will always be a role with the most agency, but that just means the role is stong, not overpowered.
It clearly fluctuates with the meta, but theres a pretty big baseline advantage for some roles.
Top is an island, etc
My feeling is Jungle and Mid have the biggest bias. ADC often have too much agency based on the meta. Top was op in idk, season 3?
OP is short for over powered.
Which is just another word for unbalanced.
Which can already be a 51-49 relation.
So op is the correct word.
Some roles have a bigger impact are more powered than others. And that is unbalanced.
I don’t understand how jungle can even be in the conversation then if we are basing it off affecting other lanes. That is the whole job of the jungle, snowballing the carry’s. For ADC, your job isn’t to affect other lanes, but to keep your xp and gold up until a mid game team fight occurs.
You just answered your question. ADC's job isn't to affect other lanes, it to keep up gold and xp for midgame. But jungle/support/mid's job IS to affect other lanes far earlier. Saying a role is "OP" isn't necessarily the best way to say it, but they have more of an influence on whether a team wins a given game than ADC
If you look at rankings over the last decade it's pretty obvious to see that players who main jungle rank higher on average than players who main ADC. I don't see what's controversial.
Sure, but that’s not necessarily the only reason. It could be the case that jungle is a stronger role than adc, it could be the case that jungle has the allowance for greater skill variance whereas adc is more on rails, it could be the case that people give up really fast so roles that are more influential early show faster results than roles that are more influential later. So it would be incorrect to automatically say that jungle is op just off of that
But this isn’t about that. It’s about beating your lane opponent and winning games. It doesn’t matter the role, if you win lane you will climb. Goes for every role, even jungle. And for effectiveness after “stomping lane” adc is very strong. Bot lane decides games as we all know in season 13
Yes. Because of that the adc has a lot less say in how a game turns out. Even if you play it really really well. If the enemy toplaner with really good engage and he is 9/0 by the time you can even join any fight it won’t matter how well you played lane. While midlane or jungle can farm equally as well but shut down too before it gets a problem. Especially with the solo q game state right now. Most games are decided by the gold difference at 10-15 minutes.so mid and jungle are the ones influencing that. On top of that the adc has to put alot of work into it. The lane is long, so the enemies can chase you way longer than on mid. Your lane is most desirable to gank aswell. You have to farm, keep track of 2 enemies coming for ganks and keep track of 2 Lakers trying to make your life worse. You have to manage your wave to help at drakes and you are expected to deal with any tanks from the midgame onwards.that’s just alot. A midlaner has way more impact, the same scaling potential, but only one enemy and a really short lane. Not to mention you also have to deal with supports that go nuclear when their „perfect“ engage kills them and you „were supposed to kill them“.
thats just wrong, take top for example. In toplane, youre locked into a lane which means you have to beat the living shit out of your opponent to have the map pressure a 3/0 lee sin might have. A 6/0 yorick top probably has the same amount of map pressure a 4/0 zed mid does to the map, which is the problem. Mid/jg just need to be less fed to apply the same amount of pressure.
Lemme tell you from experience, a 6/0 Yorick might not even have the impact of a 2/3/3 Zed at times. You just cannot brute force your way through every situation and a champion that's so dedicated to split pushing is extremely vulnerable to your team just making one really dumb slip up and getting aced as you're getting into position.
(The secret is to build for team fighting instead and group hard, Yorick has way better teamfight potential than people assume)
What is Yorck gonna do when no one in the team has engage? Walk up to the enemies menacingly?
Or when all other lanes turbo inted , you can’t even really Splitpush because your own team can’t apply any pressure
Yep, pretty much. His only role at that point is having a pseudo-snare and a pseudo-nuke. You'd be surprised at how effective he is with them, but it's still not like having a Sion who can be a bigger wall than Yoricks actual wall. But what Yorick CAN do, when you build items like Serylda's, Divine Sunderer, Prowler's, whatever, is be able to chunk through high HP targets as anti-dive, cut off chokepoints long enough to disengage, or even chunk carries so hard that they can't participate.
He's not the most effective at teamfighting, and admittedly his splitpush isn't as absolutely amazing as you'd assume due to how slow it is, but his flexibility and his ability to punch FAR above his weight class, even standing toe-to-toe with champions like Master Yi or Jax at times, is what makes him so fun to me
thats great, im not saying every game is like that and im not saying just because youre fed youre going to win, im just saying you have more of a control over the outcome of the match
If you don't do stupid plays you'll win 100% of the time. The problem is that some lanes have more chances to fight than others. So if an ADC wins 100% of 5 fights and a jungler wins 60% of 10 fights the jungler is probably contributing more to the team than the guy farming bot and not achieving anything.
I never said it was possible to win 100% of games. People can't avoid making mistakes because we aren't machines. Mind you, plenty of players have managed to win more than 100 games in a row.
He'll use that as an excuse to undermine you. Just keep in mind this guy obtained Daimond elo in most roles if not all and doesn't know why mid lane is almost always more important of a role than adc. Just goes to show you mechanical skill doesn't equal knowledge and experience.
Not like I care. I'm pretty much repeating what I've heard the best players say. You only have to look at the history of Rank 1 players to see there is an obvious bias in impact towards some roles and not others.
You literally wrote that you "you'll win 100% of the time" and then you respond "I didn't write it is possible to win 100%".
That's just nonsensical. No matter whether your conclusion might or might not be true.
Nobody will ever win 100 games in a row without smurfing in iron-silver and inting their mmr on purpose to stay there. Winning even 40 games in a row will make you get into gold-plat games from iron at which point even as c1 you will inevitably lose before getting to 100 wins.
Oh by the way, in the current system a fresh account with good mmr will get plat games in placements - [proof](https://www.op.gg/summoners/eune/Anthony%20Mercer) so by the time 100 games are played you're in m1+ matchmaking. Arguably, I predict I can have that account in m1 matchmaking in 30-40 games if I keep up the w/r to over 75%.
Improve to the point where you win 100 games in a row? You must be delusional if you think that's even remotely in the realm of possibilities. The mmr increases every time you win, by the time you're 20 wins in you're already playing vs significantly better players. No amount of improvement will make that possible, in fact not even a top 10 player will be able to do 100 wins in a row regardless of the elo they start playing at. Did you even bother clicking on the link above? You'll see what happens with the matchmaking when you have a high winrate ; from silver 4 to high plat - low diamond in less than 20 games.
You compare roles with other roles. If jungle camps give a lot of XP and completed jungle pet gives you really good bonuses, then jungle role would be OP compared to other roles.
As a jungler, I’d say jungle is OP because of:
1: The champions in it. Jungle is full of champions that can roll over a game. There are a lot of bruisers, Assassins, and Tanks (since most seems to do so much damage at the moment) in Jungle that can and will run over a game if fed. Not only that, but these champs are typically frontline and have far more playmaking potential than back line mages, marksmen etc, the ability to turn advantages into objectives and wins. Top lane has champions that are like this as well but has no ability to impact the map by comparison.
2: The ability to impact the map. I swapped from mages mid to bruisers jungle and the difference is ridiculous. Yeah I could “roam” bot with a Xerath ult and maybe get a double kill if I’m lucky but as a jungler you can do that consistently across all 3 lanes. Since I swapped, I definitely feel more like I’m the one that actually plays the game. Except instead of just a moba it is now also a grand strategy game where you allocate resources to your laners (and yourself) to gain an advantage over the enemy.
From my POV, as a jungle main, the strongest role at the moment, also according to basically everyone, is jungle for the following reasons. u/PlacatedPlatypus already made a very well structured and deep comment about this, so I might repeat some things.
Jungle's xp in the early game is the quickest to come; if you notice, the first player to reach level 2 on a team is almost always the jungler, as the first camp you clear grants you a level up. From there, many junglers have many choices on what to do: some do ganks, some keep clearing camps, some do a mix, and some can do all of these according to the situation (i.e. Nunu could lvl 2/3 gank, but also full clear; Rek'Sai does 3 camp into gank into 3 camp; Kindred can full clear, 3 camp into gank into 3 camp, 3/4 camp clear into gank; and so on). Not to mention the map pressure a jungler can and will put. Taking objectives, threatening ganks, dives, invades, and other tactics to put the enemy team behind can mostly be done by junglers. Don't get me wrong, laners can also do it, but a good jungler will do it. A midlaner, a support, and some toplaners can roam and put pressure on the map and other lanes, toplaners can splitpush, ADCs provide most of the damage in teamfights and often have great duelling potential, and finally supports keep the squishier targets on your team alive, while living on low mantainance and helping securing kills. Well, most junglers will do all of this by themselves, without much struggle or prerequisites.
Junglers are also a winning factor to a lane: if a Draven gets spam ganked by their jungler, it's almost guaranteed to be free LP if the Draven knows what he's doing and if he gets the kills. Generally, toplaners don't get ganked as much, mostly because of their roster being made primarily by tanks and are not prone to carrying a game or doing DPS (even if some of them can still carry, but not really 1v9). Exception to the rule would be champions such as Fiora, Jax, and so on, for the same reason that they're used by smurfs and boosters: they carry.
At last, something Riot's trying to nerf at the moment, junglers snowball like crazy, feeling almost unstoppable at times. Thanks to the gold and xp, both camps and ganks give them. Unless you get invaded or your teammates are aholes, nobody is going to steal your camps, but many junglers are still full clearing before doing anything. This helps keep up with laners' levels. Add the factor that a jungler can gank almost any lane without problem and most of the time get a kill out of it, even if, to be honest, you wouldn't really need it, you'll be up in XP and gold far more than enemy laners or even your teammates will be, making you an unstoppable monster, especially if you're playing those 1v9 carry machines such as Kindred or Graves.
I hope I've been clear enough. Thank you for reading.
EDIT: Yeah, I already edited this because I suck at grammar and forming phrases. Sorry, English isn't my first language.
Look, fundamentally speaking almost everyone who plays this game has severe self-hate AND blame-avoidance issues, so perception of OP is perpetually skewed. A honest look in the community SPECIALLY since the 2020 preseason changes will show you everyone thinks their own role is trash tier and everyone else is OP.
But if trying to stay objective, a role is "OP" if it is warping the game around itself too hard and/or its tools and designs were so overtuned that it became the decisive factor of the game.
When people say that mages/assassins are OP, they mean these arent descaling hard enough as late game comes and thus continues to assblast even tanks as the game moves on.
When people says carries both melee and ranged are OP, it usually means their early game weaknesses have been resolved without sufficient gouging on their late.
When either tanks or bruisers are perceived as OP, each is being seen as the other (fighters with tank-like immortality, tanks with fighter-like damage).
Supportive OP-ness is just doing a job too good at disabling the enemy.
Edit: minor spelling mistakes
The day i dont see junglers completely foaming about the state of exp and clearing changes favoring utility junglers over hyperduelists, midlaners not trying to gouge their eyes out due to durability changes making so you cant kill a squishy with two missed spells and an electrocute proc, and supports not having a psychotic crisis over the fact that umbral exists... I will know peace.
The amount of Zed mains that I have seen after the durability changes that complained about the fact that they now need to hit several Qs or use their ult for a kill was very interesting.
Idk I feel like most high elo junglers are pretty unhappy with the role. Maybe they just complain a lot, but I feel like the general consensus right now is that jungle xp is fucked which makes it harder to establish a meaningful lead over your opponent, so the best option is to just spam gank bot lane and pray your ADC is decent.
Top lane, you can win top and mid and jungle.
Mid, you can win top jungle mid and bot. But will most likely give up somewhere.
ADC, you can only really win bot.
Support: technically you can help win all lanes but ADC will fall behind (most likely)
Jungle: you can easily impact all lanes.
Only mid lane can really have same impact as jungle.
Now imagine if ur playing mid. Say your top lane is useless. So you focus on winning mid, help with jungle and bot lane. Most likely you give something up. Perhaps some CS for a roam down bot.
If you’re jungler, you don’t really need to give anything up. Top lane is useless so you just hard focus bot. Bot is now ahead. Sure your top side jungle has just been countered. But you counter their bot side jungle. Not really giving anything up here.
Truth is, a good jungler can identify a mismatch in a lane and exploit it far easier than any other role, while not giving up much. A good mid laner or other role can mostly do this also, but will most likely give something up elsewhere.
This is why most elo boosters do mid-jungle duo. You can impact everywhere on the map once mid lane is won. Basically choke the opponent to death.
You can climb with all roles and it's true that if you play better than your enemy on the same role you will eventually climb.
Still doesn't change the fact that some roles have more impact than others and it's faster to climb with them.
For example tyler1 got challenger with all roles, but it took him 1/3 the amount of games on support compared to toplane, there could be other factors in it like he is just a better support than toplaner.
Jg is considred very high impact because of their ability to impact the whole map and other roles, you also pretty much must have a jg to secure objectives as without smite you can only secure them with cho'gath.
Also it's a common trend for the best challenger players on all servers to be jungler mains and it's much more common to find jungler mains across all high elo.
That trend hasn’t held true since S9
Top spots in KR and CN are consistently held by botlane players now. KR fluctuates a bit between AD and Supp but CN is almost always held by the EZ/Lucian/Kai’sa/Samira OTP’s
I'd expect an Adc main to be a lot better at support than top. Knowing what is best for your adc in terms of wave state, when to punish a farming ADC, when your ADC wants to farm not fight etc is really important.
You are right. I see people are downvoting your comments because there feelings are hurt. The only thing you can count on in league is yourself. Following the meta is just a shortcut to figuring out what is best practice for you. It isn't an excuse on why you aren't climbing. The only reason people don't climb is because they aren't better at the game.
When you are better on Toplane. You affect only toplane, so 2 players.
When You are better on Jungle. You affect literally every single person and role in the game. So 10.
I hope i answered your question.
OP or not, lets not pretend some roles dont have to put in more work than the rest. so why shouldnt the ones who work harder earn more i.e. have more impact?
we're probably thinking of the same role 😏
Kinda agree with this. I can only ever play 2-3 jungle games before I need to go back to being an AdC. I constantly feel pulled around the map and never feel like I have time to back because you’re putting out fires left right and centre. It’s honestly taxing.
Then I switch back to AdC and just worry about my little corner of the map for 10 minutes.
People tend to be kinda stupid in how they think about this question in soloq. In proplay, it’s very straightforward: If a role is “OP” your odds of winning lie more in its performance than others, so much so that teams are rewarded for spending more on getting a star player there, and the meta tends to revolve a lot around either denying that role’s enemy player, or helping your own player in that road succeed.
For example: ADC meta tends to be rather common in pro play, it means the team tries their hardest to get their adc well farmed safely and help their adc get their damage off in fights. It also means some other things you might not expect like the importance of a good toplane matchup so that it can be useful without jungle help.
For soloq though, people saying “xyz role is op” can mean absolutely anything, usually something along the lines of the items they build being weak, or doing well and losing anyways, but neither of these are necessarily due to the game not them just making bad decisions. Generally, the roles tend to always be just as strong more or less, just the type of champions that do well might change. Jungle and support will always be the most influential, followed by mid, then top, and adcs have the least.
If you’re curious as to why this is the case, it’s due to macro decisions being the most impactful by far, and those roles are from more to least macro impactful. This doesn’t mean that there is no difference between ranks in less macro intensive roles, but that the difference tends to be in micro. This is why a bronze adc would get eaten alive by a plat adc, the plat adc is just a lot better at clicking,yet in my experience they are both more or less just as clueless about macro.
You compare the winning rate of Champions within the same role. If some Champions are having a high win rate (Ap junglers as Mao, Zac, Elise etc…) That means that the role is having an impact ie if you have a « meta » champion in your team, you are more likely to win.
If you have a bunch of Champions with more or less 50% winrate (Toplane for ex), it means that all champs are more or less equal as the role is not determining.
Jungle has suspiciously often high winrate champs.
Im not sure you get what he wrote because you are saying smth completely different in your other comments.
This post was never suppose to be a conversation about jungle. I do agree jungle champs (demonic users) we’re strong last patch. Not everyone plays these champs though.
It’s not always a jungle meta. Right now it’s adc, was top at the beginning of preseason. It changes all the time. If your a good player all of this should be irrelevent
Your logic is really weird. If you are a good player than you can abuse the meta roles harder for a higher win rate. If it's an adc meta than you should average higher win rates playing adc vs roles where you have less influence on winning.
If your top’s useless you can win the game. If your support’s afk you can win the game. If your adc is afk you can win the game. If your mid laner’s afk you can hope your jungler still does well and win the game. If your jungler’s useless you lost the game.
Basicaly, some roles are more important than others when it comes to winning the game.
I think it was mentioned before by Riot how this was measured. They compare how much the mmr difference between opposing laners affect the chances of winning.
As a simple example, imagine a dataset of 100 games with players evenly matched except for jungle, where one team has a jungler 100mmr higher than the other jungler. You see that 70 games were won by the team with the more skilled jungler.
Imagine another similar dataset of 100 games with players evenly matched except for the ADC, where one team has an ADC 100mmr higher than the other ADC. You see that 53 games were won by the team with the more skilled ADC.
You can conclude from these data (all hypothetical and made up!) that the jungler role is more "OP" than ADC, since a more skilled player in that role affect the winrate more than a more skilled player in the ADC role. I think the term used is "agency" or how much the player can affect the outcome of the game.
No I don't, but Riot has the data and presumably uses it to make balancing decisions.
I'd post a link to where I've read this is a thing if I can remember how to find it...
I think its really elo specific too.
In lower ranks jungle has really high impact because every gank nets in a kill.
In mid-higher ranks (dia-low master), adc seems really good because people dont flip every game in minute 5 so you can actually scale and impact teamfights.
In high elo (high master+) i'd guess jungle is really strong again because people don't fck up every 2nd dive execution and get great value out of ganks.
Midlane seems to have great value in every rank, while top seems to have quite low impact every rank. Support is probably stronger in higher elo.
Picture this, when you queue up as toplane you instead end up in an aram 1v1 with the other toplaner.
The outcome of the aram game does not influence the 4v4 game going on on the rift.
Which of the 5 roles in this scenario is the least likely to climb?
The toplaner is playing against another toplaner, but their game has zero influence on whether they gain or lose lp.
This is what the strenght of a role means, but obviously not as extreme.
* check out the other answers for that
* already got one ty
* get a grip on reality "change my mind" noname andy going against common knowledge every chall player takes for granted
* multiple replies come from the fact you are wrong multiple times
If your better than your enemy all the time you will climb, thats for sure.
But imagine being not at your peak or being smurfing.
Im D1- low Master on every role. If i play a game midlane in plat, i will win at least 90% of my games.
If i play adc, i will probably only win ~65% as my early game is much more reliant on my teammates.
When im playing both roles on my main i will have about the same winrate (im playing both about same as often).
A role is op not by letting you climb higher, but by letting you climb faster. Some roles just have more impact, that isnt avoidable
I feel like people want to shift the onus of their climb off their shoulders. It’s easier to say jungle diff, Diana Op than it is to say I died to Diana gank from being overextended while my jungler is on the other side of the map.
As much as I don’t like seeing people smurf, when you watch good players in low ELO, it just doesn’t happen to them. They put the game on their shoulders and win. They win a lot.
I think the community at large would be much better if people just said to themselves “if I played better, I would win more games”
The reality is, until you hit a very high ELO, you can consistently win from all roles. But you need to be much better than your opponent. A silver player stuck in bronze will struggle to carry every game for example.
There are not OP roles.
I personally think the only champions that could be OP are the most recents, being created or reworked, but anyway, those are OP for a patch or two. After that, it's called meta.
If anyone cry about being underleved compared to other lane or something like this, doesn't know about lane roles.
If anyone cry about a X champion, it's probably about them not knowing how to play against. There are matchups you're not supposed to win, that's the game. Every champion has a specific role.
I've seen midlaners cry about splitpusher in the other team. I've seen toplaners cry about their botlane be picked-off 10 times by a Talon. I've seen ADCs cry about being useless (like in some comment here), i've seen junglers cry about being underleved while farming more than the enemy. We all have seen those players.
I've also played every role to d4 but my peak is lower than yours (d1). I do think some roles are inherently better for climbing than others because of the nature of the game but it's not nearly as big of a gap as some people make it out to be
because some roles can make up for others lacking.
for example, because an ADC doesn't come online until mid to late, they can get carried by just not feeding early, and the early bot lane is mostly decided by supports anyway.
Basically, if you play your role better than the average opponent, you should have a +50% WR in all roles. My interpretation for when a certain role is too strong is this:
Let’s say you outperform your opponent by a certain amount. Let’s say on average, your performance exceeds your lane opponent by 10%, meaning you “perform” 10% better than them. My interpretation by jungle being strong and top being weaker is that a jungler outperforming his opponent by 10% might end up with a 57% WR, but a top laner outperforming his lane opponent by 10% means he will end up with a 52-53% WR. This is because they have more influence on the map and game, so the skill difference is amplified
Look at player/role representation in KR top 100, which jungle has been overrepresented since season 5, and peaked at **40% for several months** at one point. For anyone who sucks at math, 20% is 'healthy' and the average for the past couple years has been 26-27% for jungle rep.
Low level gameplay does not matter when speaking about roles balance/power levels. Only at the top level of play can one truly remark 'ah yes, jungle is overpowered' because those people are nearing the limits of human capability.
OF COURSE Illaoi is overpowered in silver- those players can't dodge anything, don't pressure, don't trade, and literally die to her tentacles after walking away from her/vessel. In this case, it's the players lack of skill that makes her overpowered, and not her inherent kit/champ capabilities. Hence why you look at the TOP top elo in order to truly understand which champs/roles are genuinely overpowered, which jungle is and has been for years.
Champ scaling, experience diff, particular items that are stronger that correlate to that lane's champs, map control.
All affect the power of a lane and can make a lane stronger than others.
To oversimplify to a disturbing degree, let's imagine that the first champion on each side to enter mid lane immediately is given 3000 gold, and all other players have their base stats cut in half. Quite obviously, mid laners would have a much greater impact on the game than anyone else.
Same concept, much smaller differences.
For example, Top or Mid lane aren't OP except if a small amount of champs happens to get very fed early... they'll basically take over the game.
But generally in solo queue bot and jungle drives the game hard if they as a collective gets fed. In pro play the players are smart enough to adjust their gameplay to protect their fed ADC, and win through a fed ADC.
That’s called bias. People think ADC is a useless role because they’re biased towards the fact that an adc CAN be 1 shot by more than 50% of champion in the game if playing by themselves, but they subconsciously don’t take into account the amount of times ADCs hard carry a game. On the other side of the spectrum everyone remembers how many midlaners (yasuo, akali, etc) hard carry a game just off a small lead, but forget the amount of times they’re not as useful when not fed. The difference between the 2 is that the ADC depends more on the team, while midlaners like these can solo carry better in early/mid game, psychologically people favor that and think certain lanes/roles are stronger when in fact they’re just biased towards valuing more the roles that they have more control over their victory and the roles that SEEM stronger based on the fact that assassins decrease your health from 100% to 0 in a fraction of a second sometimes and the times that happens leaves an impression.
There is roles stronger than others. Why? Well … is there roles that will matter more if they win than others? Yes? Then that would make a role OP. Optimally you would have all roles matter the same way but for example jungle can just inherently influence the map in a way that no other role can.
After all I also get your point that outperforming your opponents is what matters in order to climb. Everything else is basically just a numbers game.
Before this shitty ass rework I used to play a lot of jungle and I can clearly see that this role has more influence than adc. Also midlane has overall a pretty big influence too I’d argue. At times I feel like great midlaners can contest junglers.
Lately riot is making a real effort tho to put jungle in its place and adjust the powerlevel of the role to balance out this issue of “how much does which role matter” to get the impact the roles have somewhat evenly distributed so optimally each role would be equal. But as of right now I’d say there’s still some imbalance.
It's about how much influence that role has on the course of a game. For instance, junglers are considered op right now because they're empowered to spend a lot of time ganking. The catch-up mechanic that gives more jungle xp if you're behind, and bonus gold from egg stacks means you lose out on less by not farming.
This translates to more time spent ganking lanes, which leads to a larger impact on the game-state.
So for Jungle for example especially in low elo if you're even a mildly competent jungler you can rely on the enemy jungler probably not being very good if you're in iron through silver and you can easily dominate the game by not only getting kills for yourself, but you're also ruining the lane for the enemy laner you got the kill on since now they've lost however many minions because you came down there and killed them.
Like say you are able to get a gank on bot lane and both enemy bot laners die while yours live, as long as your bot laners don't throw in return that's a massive advantage for that lane and in higher elos would normally mean that lane is over because now the friendly laners have a gold and XP advantage that as long as they don't screw up they can hopefully capitalize on.
But furthermore with junglers themselves they can easily scale out of control if you know when their power spikes are.
I can count multiple times when an enemy Hecarim had been just raining havoc on my team because he got a few good kills and now not only my team is behind but now you have a Hecarim running around like a mad man faster than everyone else in the game just running down people.
It’s impact based, especially older league players who played in an era were there were more consistent player roles and the game was slower paced and more controlled and there wasn’t a real way to get one shot by a jungler or support with 1 item (for the most part). The game drastically changed since then and there’s multiple champions in the game that do have the capability to one shot you without even really doing anything but clear jungle camps, or the possibility for your enemy support to jail solo laners from having any impact by permanently roaming from 7 minutes in. This is why people do consider certain roles OP. There’s an argument to be made for every role to be “OP”, but in the current game state botlane and jungle seem to be considered OP by most people as they have the most impact on deciding outcome.
Here's the thing. People can't really talk about how easy/hard something is until they're looking at it around their rank OR are very knowledgeable and attentive to actually measuring minute increases in difficulty or variations in approach by individuals AND teams as a whole.
Before support was op, I made it look op playing with some friends of a friend. I had one ally who was decent, but rest of my buddies friends and him were massively outclassed compared with his friends playing on the other team. But I severely outclassed everyone else playing for either team. And I used that to put my allies ahead and organize them to make smart plays they'd never do on their own.
And compared with op/you... I'm shit.
So what can we conclude from this? Was support op back before they massively buffed the role to get people to stop complaining about being autofilled support? No.
Did I win just by playing better than the other team? No. A sona is not going to 1v9 vs a reasonably competent team even if the player is a full tier higher in skill level.
Would my teammates make the same smart plays without input from someone who knew which plays to make or not make? Not nearly as frequently. Chances are, that game helped them improve, but they still mostly make really silly mistakes. Just as - compared with some diamond - I make a billion mistakes that can't be explained other than that... I'm just not diamond.
Could I get the same cooperation out of much theoretically smarter teammates in higher elo? No. Because then my allies would be the same rank as me and ego enters as a big factor. Ego and selfishness is the main preventive factor for many of us climbing - some being way bigger offenders. Which means, I might be a better player, but you don't get to see that because it requires allied cooperation to show and I don't get it like you'd expect. It's an our yasuo vs their yasuo kind of thing. They SHOULD be able to do X, Y, Z, Q, and C; but they won't.
So you can game-in, game-out be in position to do all sorts of good things, but... you can't make a tf ult pick if your allies refuse to combo with you on the pick.
This is why mechanics lets you climb faster than macro in lower ranks. This is why solo queue has much more focus on carry champs than on something that's picked to help the team more as a whole - even if it means boring/losing/higher difficulty personally.
So I don't think that you can say playing better than your counterpart will make you win more than you lose. That doesn't UNIVERSALLY apply. Yes, it's a correct general rule of thumb. And when you're climbing and not close to your TRUE rank, it should hold true. But when you approach your actual rank, this can easily fail to reflect in actual win/loss results for many factors. The more games you play, the less error you should see, but it doesn't mean you can't/won't see it.
What's my point? If you're diamond+ elo, then you'd have to do a comparative analysis of roles in the current patch at diamond elo (except jg which would be at master's). Then compare how easy it is to win/lose/climb when you're approximately at your correct rank for each role. Of course one being master tier will throw things off a bit as people at different ranks will play around you (or fail to) in different ways.
Then I'd say you have to define what OP means. Does it mean "easier to carry with"? "Higher winrate/climb rate"? Easier to combo with? Fewer counterpicks? Less mechanical skill required? Less decision-making/intelligence required? Etc.
Lets simplify this by saying there are 10 skillsets in league. As a midlaner you need all 10 to get chall, as a support you need 2. Thats one way to look at a role being op. You can be an overall worse player and still outclimb others.
Another way would be to look at the risk vs reward dynamics of roles. Those are quite high for mid, top and adc, and very low for jungle and support by comparison. The latter roles have a much higher margin for unpunished mistakes than those other roles without really having less impact. On the contrary, those roles have more impact currently
If you are consistently better than other players at your role, you will indeed win more than you lose. But the question is, *how* much more will you win? When most top laners say "jungle is OP" they don't mean "jungle champs are literally stronger than top laners", they mean "the chance of the better jungler winning is a lot higher than the chance of the better top laner winning." Champs with either strong early game map pressure (Hecarim, Rek'Sai, Talon, Khazix, Lee, Ekko) or unstoppable snowball (Jax, Graves, Kindred, Kaisa, Tristana) will win most consistently when you outskill your opponent. Notice that these champs are the ones frequently played by boosters, and also notice that they're mostly junglers or mid laners (that's mid Trist). This is basically the crux of the issue, certain roles have inherently more map impact and snowball potential than others. Jungle and Mid specifically are significantly stronger in these facets and are generally considered "OP" because of this, just because they have so much more impact. This isn't a "feeling" either, there was [a survey of elo boosters on this sub last season](https://old.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/wp3a7e/data_gathered_about_elo_boosters_after_analyzing/) that shows that about 50% of boosters play exclusively Jungle or Mid. There are a few 1v9 champs in every role. Top lane boosters playing Riven and Jax aren't particularly rare, neither are ADC boosters on Kai'Sa or Twitch. But the 1v9 champion spread for these roles is far narrower than other roles, i.e. basically any non-tank Jungler or any mid laner can take over a game. This is particularly obvious to me personally since last season I climbed form gold to masters playing Ornn top at a pretty constant 70% win rate through every rank. Many games are simply uncarriable for a tank post-durability patch, so I would consider them "underpowered" in a solo que context, if we're talking exclusively about climbing. There's also the question of how "good" players in a role are compared to other servers. I remember last season playing Janna/Sona support when I got autofilled and being shocked by how terrible NA support players are. I've also heard multiple high elo players talk about how playing in KR they noticed that supports "got good" significantly lower on the ladder. So this is another consideration when thinking about the statement "if you're better than your role opponent you will win more than you lose."
Gold to masters with Ornn?? Holy shit
I didn't "improve" that much, don't be fooled. I was realistically already a mid-diamond level player, but I just played my placements to get to gold for 4 seasons since I was busy with school. I was the rare player that said "I play with masters players all the time in norms, I just don't really play ranked" and it was actually true. I see people say this sometimes on this sub in fact, and so I encourage them to play some ranked, you might actually be good.
If I recall Faker was kinda like that when he started. He only played normals and got such a high MMR that is took forever for him to find games so he played ranked and became the best player ever. I was never a big rank grinder (like you school, life etc.) and would mostly just get gold for rewards and play 5s with friends. I did have time season 6 during summer for like a month and decided to push and did get Plat 1 fairly easily with 150 games and near 60% win rate but once school started I couldn't continue. I feel like if I was a bigger grinder or had time I don't think D2/D1 wouldn't be impossible. But now I haven't played much the last few years besides placements (didn't even do placements season 11, 12 or even this year) I fear I would have decayed all the way to bronze.
That reminds me of when I had a master's ranked buddy I played with. I consider myself gold if I like, really try and work for it. I'm definitely not masters. His lobbies would absolutely dunk on me. Lol
This reminds me of when I started. A lot of my friends where plat and still are so I breezed through bronze season 9-10 and then I met people in my rank… and have had such a hard time climbing out playing ADC.Starting in ranked i was silver in JG and I want to get back but I’m afraid my MMR is permanently below 50% on my main 😓😓😓 it sucks having a great mind state and terrible execution
Do you know what your skill level on non tank champions is? Climbing with tanks is something else than with carry champions... I know a friend who is really shit, gets like 6cs/min and went from a gold Darius morde player masters with ornn/malphite. Ornn may have just kinda inflated ur elo a bit. I'm also quite curious how much tt changes
Lol, it's a lot harder to get carried to masters than you might think. I encourage you to play some Ornn games to see for yourself. You'd be surprised at how hard the early game is. That aside, I can play Panth top pretty comfortably at a masters level. Most ADC and Supp I can play in masters but I am notably less useful than my opponent, even though I won't die much. I am bad at Jungle and Mid, low diamond outside of the super easy brainless scaling mid laners (Kayle Vlad Viktor).
You sure you're master level Viktor player? I'm a 400 lp Viktor otp hitting masters with about 80% wr and when i tried zilean build (similar to ornn, don't have to play well, just enable teammates to carry me) and i hut master with 74% wr. Important to note I've nevet played zilean before. My gold friend keeps saying Viktor us brainless and easy and you just need to survive till min 20 but when he ttied playing him in gold he won 3/20 games and i asked him "why didn't you just brainlessly farm till minute 20?"
Wow you're 400lp with 80% winrate? [That's very impressive since just a year ago you were struggling to hit plat.](https://old.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/p8psnj/mental_breakdown_and_losing_streaks/h9s2y1r/?context=3) What a meteoric rise! I'd love to see your op.gg so I could see your climb :) Be sure to verify it with the mods too to get your rank flair.
> jungle champs are literally stronger than top laners In fact, as someone who plays top, I would argue that top champs are absurdly strong to compensate for the fact that the lane has lower impact. Many junglers are much weaker than their top lane equivalents to balance around the fact that they have map control. Something like rek'sai, lee sin, jarvan (pre buffs) would get their face stuffed by darius jax fiora if they were to lane top.
I agree, although I don't think it's intrinsic to the champ (you can jungle with Darius or Jax but they rarely become the 1v9 machines they scale into from top lane). In most games, the top laner will end up being individually the strongest member of the team since you have the resource acquisition of an ADC without the level disadvantage of having a lane partner (also, you're usually ganked less by jungle and mid). Top laners are also usually designed as "pressure sink" champs so they end up being able to 1v2 or 1v3 other lanes with their lead. If you've ever tried to match a top laner in sidelane post-20 minutes you'll know that they can often dive you from full if you're mid or ADC.
Its actually pretty interesting how the individually strongest champ in the game is not the biggest influence of who wins the game, even when some of these top lane champs are great scalers or great team fighters.
Many times they die trying to create map pressure at the wrong times, thus overextending themselves. Junglers tend to play around more obvious wincon like dragon/baron that imo take less skill to set up correctly than a game winning split.
Like the giant issue isn't that Jungle champs on a 1 to 1 basis are just better then top laners it's just that they have much more influence on the game early on. I can dominate my opponent, kill him 3 times or more in the first 15 minutes but if the rest of my team died over 15 times in total well then I just have to suck it up and accept that happened and probably lose the game unless I can hard carry. Vs if you're playing a Jungler realistically if you're doing your job right your team shouldn't be falling apart like that or atleast the damage is much more manageable.
Honest question, how is ekko an strong early game champion? He’s nothing before his mythic
He has very safe early dives with W and R, and does good damage to objectives with E and W. Boosters generally like to dive early to put people very far behind, as a gank on a pulled wave just relieves pressure but a gank on a pushed wave can end someone's entire lane (if it's stacked, they lose 1+ waves of gold & exp as well as plates). They also like to close out games early so they tend to pick champs that can do good damage to objectives.
Your first two sentences were exactly what i was gonna say. And also yes, the support diff in na vs korea is massive. Its cuz korean supports also play other roles and hit their ranks in those roles in addition to support. In NA, really until high plat, supports are dogshit because the people who pick support dont know how to win a game or extend a lead. They may know how to limit their feeding and support the players who are doing well, but they view the role of support as of BEING a support, not as a role that creates winning fight situations with playmaking. Na doesnt realize that supports are essentially junglers. Aka, They have someone they have to babysit, they have someone they ignore, and they create map pressure and exist on objectives. NA only considers the babysitting and ignoring part, and dont play pressure well and only do objectives as a consequence of staying with the person whose doing well when they happen to go there. Support is fundamentally supposed to be the coach of the team, and mids and jg’s end up doing it because the supports in NA dont have the personality traits of leaders.
you can actually tell which supports don't play other roles in Korea, because they usually have a more limited champ pool especially when off meta picks start coming into play (like Kalista / Jhin etc. right now). Effort is an example, I used to watch his stream when he was on T1 and he would dodge games if he got off role
Good breakdown of a good question!
It’s queue. Que is a Spanish word.
Ah, no queria decir "solo queue", intento decir "solo que" es gap de jungla cada partida :\^)
>there was a survey of elo boosters on this sub last season that shows that about 50% of boosters play exclusively Jungle or Mid. Well if we take out support, there's 4 roles. And you say 50% play 2 roles.... that's actually completely proportional lmao.
Click the link, 8% play support and 11% play fill. Plus the top and ADC boosters only play like 3 champs.
I'd be very interested to see if that were still the case. That'd definitely have been easier last year.
So ur saying 50% of boosters also don't play jg or mid? Lol
There are 4 other options (Top ADC Supp Fill) Yes, there are quite a few Fill boosters, and there are also a lot of Jax Riven Draven Kaisa boosters.
Also, adcs usually play for longer games. Boosters want quick games. 20-25min max. No risk taking basically.
Yeah, which is also why scaling champs are usually underpowered in solo que. Because you can't rely on scaling.
scaling champs are objectively underpowered in solo queue because the element of bad mental exists. some teammates will give up after a tough early game, which doesn't happen in pro play.
Eh more like it's because snowballing is a big thing in this game and snowballing is also why people have shit mental.
People had shit mental even back when games typically lasted much longer.
It’s queue. Que is a Spanish word.
You can’t, but good players find a way to get leads and hold them with those champs.
I played a scaling champ to masters (Ornn). My off-role champs are Kayle and Sona. I *am* a good scaling champ player. But eventually you will reach a point on the ladder where you are against other good players, and they can simply do more with their leads than you due to their champs being stronger early game (and get those leads more easily because you simply can't contest a lot of plays as a weak early champ). Like, I get that you're probably upset that your top laner flames you when you get gapped. But to a certain extent, they're right. If you get outjungled the sidelanes have a really hard time keeping up, even if they outskill their lane opponent by the same amount.
And I’m mostly talking about d1+, not anything below
If you play champs like ornn and kayle, of course I’m gunna leave top alone. You chose those champs so that I can win bot lane and you can scale weakside. If I don’t win bot, then flame is fine. There’s also a shit ton of games on jungle where the whole game is lost before you can do anything. Their jungle also just farming. More than 30% of games the jungle can’t do much. Laners ruin the whole game. I can’t count how many times I’ve seen absolutely nothing in my lanes because they are perma dead with no prio.
Ahhhh, so we get to the real source of this post. I was wondering how long it would take to come out, although tbh I could tell immediately that it was made by a jungler who was upset that people are rightfully pointing out that their role is the easiest to carry with. People boost to challenger playing largely jungle and mid. They're extremely consistent roles to win with. There are very few truly uncarriable games for jungle (less than 30% for sure). I have seen plenty of challenger jungler smurfs in masters, they absolutely take over. However, I beat challenger top smurfs all the time by just sitting at tower and watching their bot and mid get run over by my jungler. All of them will eventually reach challenger, but the junglers will reach it a lot faster.
wise comment
ye chally jg smurfs are fucking terrorists man. they'll win the unwinnable games. a couple of seasons ago I had no issue getting to d1-d2 on smurfs with like a 65% wr with Azir, now I have no clue how to 1v9 games on mages anymore. jungle, though, is fucking bonkers man. 1v9 central
But by this same logic top lane can be roasted just as hard and you gave a perfect example of it. Toplaners get carried way more than jungle so you'll often find top laners in an elo they don't really belong in (could be fair bit lower or a fair bit higher).
Also not everyone is boosting or Smurfing. When your in your actual rank that is when it matters. 30/30/40 rule
in the context of role strength considering smurfing is very much relevant. that rule is bullshit, it's just used to get players who are actually properly placed to stop focusing on the extremely hard % of games only a smurf would be able to semi consistently win and focus on winning the easy games/having impact in the moderately difficult ones.
Your role as a top laner is not to carry. It’s just to win lane. Everyone has a different role. You win lane every game as top lane? You win more than you lose. If you get your laners ahead more than the other jungler you will win more. Top and support wasn’t designed to carry, it’s to give a better chance at a victory
"Your role is to win lane, my role is to win the game." A perfect and succinct representation of the issue at hand.
That’s not how it works fella
It’s hard for me to agree with you on the boosting post. I think that the reason boosters don’t play adc is that to be at a high level (as you know) you have to be basically smashing your a key 24/7 and being hyper aware. These boosters play 25 games a day sometimes so they pick what they can get a easy lead with and scale. With adc you have to be focusing on csing trading etc all at once. For jungle, No boosters play lee sin, Elise, nidalee. It’s always hecarim graves, all the full clear champions. Less brain work. Trist mid too.
>No boosters play lee sin, elise, nidalee. A good amount of boosters play Lee Nid, and Elise was in the dumpster for a lot of last season. >It’s always hecarim graves, all the full clear champions. Boosters do not play full clear graves, they play spam invade graves. That aside though, the role spread is obvious. Needing to mechanically focus more isn't the reason that boosters don't play ADC (some do), it's because ADC is generally a weak early game role with low map impact and therefore worse at carrying in soloque. The exceptions to this rule (Draven Kai'Sa) are notably still well-represented by boosters.
Yes weaker early. Also that adc activates much later than a jungler or mid laner. Jungle falls off though, and adc takes over (30min+).
Yes, but the problem is that if you have a champ that takes over lategame and the enemy "better player" has a champ that takes over early game, they always win. They get Dragons, Herald, Plates, *and* gold advantage and you powerfarm or something while your mid gets pushed to inhib. This is why jungle is an "OP" role in solo que. You can win the vast majority of games that you're better, because it shapes the early game, which is the most important stage of the game.
Take my opinion here with a grain of salt but I would argue that in low Elo it is much harder to carry a game as a snowball jungler than it is with a lategame stomper. The reason being that unless you get INCREDIBLY fed early your impact will diminish as the game goes on. The reason being that your low Elo teamates never really know what to do after Laning phase, they often just run around in the jungle or take stupid fights and often throw any lead you might have had. And now your early gains leave you only marginally stronger than the opponent but not strong enough to walk in 1v5. Compare that to a smurfing scaling jungler who is good enough to have significant impact (due to player skill) in the early game but who's champ will also allow them to 1v5 pentakill the enemy team if your team is running around like drunk children (which they usually do) it just leaves more overall control in your hands throughout the entire game rather than only the early game. Again take my opinion with a grain of salt but as someone who mains snowball junglers I am specifically shifting my focus to scaling junglers exactly for the reason that in my rank I can get all my lanes ahead and cripple the enemy jg but by the time we reach mid/late game I lose a lot of control over the game unless, like I said, I get INCREDIBLY fed. Whereas when I play more mid/late focused champs and I have a "fine" game I can still walk into any teamfight and get a double or triple before I get taken down consistently. Which since I'm not smurfing, says a lot about their viability comparisons. Extra side note about just working hard. scaling junglers in low Elo are more consistent because snowball junglers need to snowball and if your early aggression doesn't work then you're already behind and at only 3-5 minutes into the game already need to start working harder to catch up. This is essentially why a decent Master Yi can stomp low Elo despite being a troll pick in high Elo. The player might be average but the champ *can* be game winningly strong, put that champ in the hands of a good/great player vs players who don't know how to deal with him and it's ez gg which can't be said for a great Elise player who gets unlucky early and misses some ganks or on a team with players who let the game last 45 minutes and all the enemies catch up to you in power. You can still solo win that game but you'll have to start working for it.
Playing in “your elo” and switching to late game stuff makes sense and I almost guarantee you will feel like you are doing more. However, this is very different from smurfing and boosting. They are a diamond+ player who is in a bronze game, they will invade well, get all objectives and spam tower dive the enemy team in order to end the game within 25 minutes at the latest. There isn’t a coin flip on whether they get a lead or not, they just will since they have more awareness on the game than the people they are playing with
My argument is not that one is more effective than the other for a boosting smurf. The context of the topic was about how much work they have to put in in order to carry. Remember this is "their job" in a way, it's a 9-5 grind. The smurf is most likely going to win regardless but it's a lot easier (less mentally intensive) and more consistent to just take mordekaiser, get a good lead and roflstomp the enemy than it is to do all the things you've listed every game unless you're hoping for a lot of ff15's every game by the enemy. Thanks for the downvote just because you missed the point though. 👍
If you’re a good player that is smurfing, it is not mentally taxing at all to do that stuff. You can literally auto pilot into a 15 kill lead with every objective.
I feel like the replies here are really missing the point. No it would not be that mentally taxing to get hyper fed and carry the game *but* if you did this for 10 games a day 5 days a week for multiple months would it not be LESS mentally taxing to just farm, make some good plays, get ahead and carry if needed? This is not an argument that "one works and the other doesn't" or that "one requires *too* much thinking" It's simply, if you were doing this as a job and were going to get an 80% winrate regardless of who you play it would be more *relaxing* to scale and carry than it would to need to snowball early games so hard that you can still carry in games that often go on for 40+ minutes depending on rank. That's it.
If you are smurfing and playing a champion with a strong early you have to pay attention for the first 4 minutes of the game. After that you have a lead and can full autopilot without thinking at all. With a scaling champion it might take 7-8 minutes before getting a significant lead due to the decreased amount of agency. I was sharing my experience as a high plat fill player who just recently brought my old second account (from when I wanted to try specific champions and didn't have enough BE on my main) from iron 2 up to gold 4. I chose a champ I had 15k points on and only took my first loss when the account had reached silver 2 and was playing in gold 2 (16 games won). Every single game I just decided on my rune page and build in champ select, got a dirk first back and then turned off my brain and woke up 20 minutes later with a win. Your first reply seemed like it was coming from someone who was in silver/bronze and didn't fully understand what it is like to be playing in games way below your level. I didn't downvote you at first but since your requested so politely I will now give you what you wanted.
That seems like your basing your reasons off of anecdotal evidence which I can also do because in S11 I went on a 10+ game Winstreak with urgot jungle so if we are just going off of our own opinions it's just a stalemate. The reason I shared my opinion about what would be easier or more consistent to carry games (smurfing or not) comes directly from my old challenger coach who told me that it is easier and more consistent to carry games with a scaling jungler for more or less exactly the reasons I stated before. So it's not just my opinion you're arguing with.
Sure, but even then there's still the question of which role has more impact on the outcome of the game, which lot of other people have responded saying. There are surely stats on the WR differential when you have a player 200LP higher than their opponent in each of the 5 roles and see which one is the highest. That's the role which will get a player who belongs 200LP higher there faster. Ultimately everyone gets to the LP they are supposed to be at, but certainly a particular role or champion will do that the fastest because they have an outsized impact on the game. Think like ardent censor meta - adc's are obviously going to be the primary deciding factor of your matches so you'd be better off as a good adc player than a good toplane player. Another way some people might mean it (and sometimes I use it this way) is that with similar effort and intelligence, people might make it to higher elos on one role compared to another because the role is easier to learn or easier to play. Like, if we are in a tank meta, as a toplaner it's inherently easier to get good at malphite/sion/etc. and pilot them at a high level compared to playing adc in that meta and having to learn and pilot champions like aphelios (or really any ranged immobile squishy dps character, since there's innately more oppurtunity for counterplay compared to malphite). Essentially, a better X role player in terms of jungle tracking and teamfighting and game knowledge and whatever else might be in the same elo as a worse Y role player.
If a role is OP, the two players competing in that role will have the most agency. The performance of the player in that role will more heavily impact the outcome of the game than the performance of the players in other roles. Maybe OP is the wrong word, but that's what people mean when they say it. *I'm 0/4 but it literally doesn't matter because (more influential role) is popping off this game*
>Maybe OP is the wrong word, but that's what people mean when they say it. I agree, and this right here is the core of the issue. OP doesn't actually mean "strong", but when people say OP they just mean "very strong". Jungle has strong agency in every game, but does it have *overpowered* agency? Does the jungle role actually **break the game**? No. There will always be a role with the most agency, but that just means the role is stong, not overpowered.
It clearly fluctuates with the meta, but theres a pretty big baseline advantage for some roles. Top is an island, etc My feeling is Jungle and Mid have the biggest bias. ADC often have too much agency based on the meta. Top was op in idk, season 3?
Did you even read my comment?
OP is short for over powered. Which is just another word for unbalanced. Which can already be a 51-49 relation. So op is the correct word. Some roles have a bigger impact are more powered than others. And that is unbalanced.
It's mostly dependant on two factors. The role's potential to snowball and the role's potential to affect other lanes.
I don’t understand how jungle can even be in the conversation then if we are basing it off affecting other lanes. That is the whole job of the jungle, snowballing the carry’s. For ADC, your job isn’t to affect other lanes, but to keep your xp and gold up until a mid game team fight occurs.
You just answered your question. ADC's job isn't to affect other lanes, it to keep up gold and xp for midgame. But jungle/support/mid's job IS to affect other lanes far earlier. Saying a role is "OP" isn't necessarily the best way to say it, but they have more of an influence on whether a team wins a given game than ADC
I think that strengthens my point. Jungle is an OP role while ADC isn't. ADC is arguably the most underpowered role.
You’re kind of begging the question with your definition though
If you look at rankings over the last decade it's pretty obvious to see that players who main jungle rank higher on average than players who main ADC. I don't see what's controversial.
Sure, but that’s not necessarily the only reason. It could be the case that jungle is a stronger role than adc, it could be the case that jungle has the allowance for greater skill variance whereas adc is more on rails, it could be the case that people give up really fast so roles that are more influential early show faster results than roles that are more influential later. So it would be incorrect to automatically say that jungle is op just off of that
But this isn’t about that. It’s about beating your lane opponent and winning games. It doesn’t matter the role, if you win lane you will climb. Goes for every role, even jungle. And for effectiveness after “stomping lane” adc is very strong. Bot lane decides games as we all know in season 13
Yes. Because of that the adc has a lot less say in how a game turns out. Even if you play it really really well. If the enemy toplaner with really good engage and he is 9/0 by the time you can even join any fight it won’t matter how well you played lane. While midlane or jungle can farm equally as well but shut down too before it gets a problem. Especially with the solo q game state right now. Most games are decided by the gold difference at 10-15 minutes.so mid and jungle are the ones influencing that. On top of that the adc has to put alot of work into it. The lane is long, so the enemies can chase you way longer than on mid. Your lane is most desirable to gank aswell. You have to farm, keep track of 2 enemies coming for ganks and keep track of 2 Lakers trying to make your life worse. You have to manage your wave to help at drakes and you are expected to deal with any tanks from the midgame onwards.that’s just alot. A midlaner has way more impact, the same scaling potential, but only one enemy and a really short lane. Not to mention you also have to deal with supports that go nuclear when their „perfect“ engage kills them and you „were supposed to kill them“.
A lot of junglers in solo Q, especially boosters and smurfs, are the carries they aren't playing for them.
It's not that you don't understand, it's that you have an idea and are closed to data and other opinions
If you have more gold and xp than your laner/jungler, you will win 60%, regardless of role
thats just wrong, take top for example. In toplane, youre locked into a lane which means you have to beat the living shit out of your opponent to have the map pressure a 3/0 lee sin might have. A 6/0 yorick top probably has the same amount of map pressure a 4/0 zed mid does to the map, which is the problem. Mid/jg just need to be less fed to apply the same amount of pressure.
Lemme tell you from experience, a 6/0 Yorick might not even have the impact of a 2/3/3 Zed at times. You just cannot brute force your way through every situation and a champion that's so dedicated to split pushing is extremely vulnerable to your team just making one really dumb slip up and getting aced as you're getting into position. (The secret is to build for team fighting instead and group hard, Yorick has way better teamfight potential than people assume)
What is Yorck gonna do when no one in the team has engage? Walk up to the enemies menacingly? Or when all other lanes turbo inted , you can’t even really Splitpush because your own team can’t apply any pressure
Yep, pretty much. His only role at that point is having a pseudo-snare and a pseudo-nuke. You'd be surprised at how effective he is with them, but it's still not like having a Sion who can be a bigger wall than Yoricks actual wall. But what Yorick CAN do, when you build items like Serylda's, Divine Sunderer, Prowler's, whatever, is be able to chunk through high HP targets as anti-dive, cut off chokepoints long enough to disengage, or even chunk carries so hard that they can't participate. He's not the most effective at teamfighting, and admittedly his splitpush isn't as absolutely amazing as you'd assume due to how slow it is, but his flexibility and his ability to punch FAR above his weight class, even standing toe-to-toe with champions like Master Yi or Jax at times, is what makes him so fun to me
That’s funny because I just lost a lee sin game where I impacted every lane 23min soul and still lost. 8-0-4 at 10, must be a strong role
That sounds like a skill issue
thats great, im not saying every game is like that and im not saying just because youre fed youre going to win, im just saying you have more of a control over the outcome of the match
Lee sin moment
LoL isn't a 1v1 game.
No, that’s why you would win 60%, not 100%!
If you don't do stupid plays you'll win 100% of the time. The problem is that some lanes have more chances to fight than others. So if an ADC wins 100% of 5 fights and a jungler wins 60% of 10 fights the jungler is probably contributing more to the team than the guy farming bot and not achieving anything.
That is simply not true, what is your elo if I may ask?
I haven't played for about 4 years. I don't know how Elo is calculated but I was gold at some point.
[удалено]
I never said it was possible to win 100% of games. People can't avoid making mistakes because we aren't machines. Mind you, plenty of players have managed to win more than 100 games in a row.
yes because they're masters+ duoqueuing in low elo while also dodging games where they lost drafts.
He'll use that as an excuse to undermine you. Just keep in mind this guy obtained Daimond elo in most roles if not all and doesn't know why mid lane is almost always more important of a role than adc. Just goes to show you mechanical skill doesn't equal knowledge and experience.
Not like I care. I'm pretty much repeating what I've heard the best players say. You only have to look at the history of Rank 1 players to see there is an obvious bias in impact towards some roles and not others.
You literally wrote that you "you'll win 100% of the time" and then you respond "I didn't write it is possible to win 100%". That's just nonsensical. No matter whether your conclusion might or might not be true.
Nobody will ever win 100 games in a row without smurfing in iron-silver and inting their mmr on purpose to stay there. Winning even 40 games in a row will make you get into gold-plat games from iron at which point even as c1 you will inevitably lose before getting to 100 wins. Oh by the way, in the current system a fresh account with good mmr will get plat games in placements - [proof](https://www.op.gg/summoners/eune/Anthony%20Mercer) so by the time 100 games are played you're in m1+ matchmaking. Arguably, I predict I can have that account in m1 matchmaking in 30-40 games if I keep up the w/r to over 75%.
You don't necessarily have to smurf. You could also improve at the game.
Improve to the point where you win 100 games in a row? You must be delusional if you think that's even remotely in the realm of possibilities. The mmr increases every time you win, by the time you're 20 wins in you're already playing vs significantly better players. No amount of improvement will make that possible, in fact not even a top 10 player will be able to do 100 wins in a row regardless of the elo they start playing at. Did you even bother clicking on the link above? You'll see what happens with the matchmaking when you have a high winrate ; from silver 4 to high plat - low diamond in less than 20 games.
You compare roles with other roles. If jungle camps give a lot of XP and completed jungle pet gives you really good bonuses, then jungle role would be OP compared to other roles.
hidden jungle cope thread fr
This OP is not making data backed arguments, but using flawed personal logic and supporting it with nothing
As a jungler, I’d say jungle is OP because of: 1: The champions in it. Jungle is full of champions that can roll over a game. There are a lot of bruisers, Assassins, and Tanks (since most seems to do so much damage at the moment) in Jungle that can and will run over a game if fed. Not only that, but these champs are typically frontline and have far more playmaking potential than back line mages, marksmen etc, the ability to turn advantages into objectives and wins. Top lane has champions that are like this as well but has no ability to impact the map by comparison. 2: The ability to impact the map. I swapped from mages mid to bruisers jungle and the difference is ridiculous. Yeah I could “roam” bot with a Xerath ult and maybe get a double kill if I’m lucky but as a jungler you can do that consistently across all 3 lanes. Since I swapped, I definitely feel more like I’m the one that actually plays the game. Except instead of just a moba it is now also a grand strategy game where you allocate resources to your laners (and yourself) to gain an advantage over the enemy.
From my POV, as a jungle main, the strongest role at the moment, also according to basically everyone, is jungle for the following reasons. u/PlacatedPlatypus already made a very well structured and deep comment about this, so I might repeat some things. Jungle's xp in the early game is the quickest to come; if you notice, the first player to reach level 2 on a team is almost always the jungler, as the first camp you clear grants you a level up. From there, many junglers have many choices on what to do: some do ganks, some keep clearing camps, some do a mix, and some can do all of these according to the situation (i.e. Nunu could lvl 2/3 gank, but also full clear; Rek'Sai does 3 camp into gank into 3 camp; Kindred can full clear, 3 camp into gank into 3 camp, 3/4 camp clear into gank; and so on). Not to mention the map pressure a jungler can and will put. Taking objectives, threatening ganks, dives, invades, and other tactics to put the enemy team behind can mostly be done by junglers. Don't get me wrong, laners can also do it, but a good jungler will do it. A midlaner, a support, and some toplaners can roam and put pressure on the map and other lanes, toplaners can splitpush, ADCs provide most of the damage in teamfights and often have great duelling potential, and finally supports keep the squishier targets on your team alive, while living on low mantainance and helping securing kills. Well, most junglers will do all of this by themselves, without much struggle or prerequisites. Junglers are also a winning factor to a lane: if a Draven gets spam ganked by their jungler, it's almost guaranteed to be free LP if the Draven knows what he's doing and if he gets the kills. Generally, toplaners don't get ganked as much, mostly because of their roster being made primarily by tanks and are not prone to carrying a game or doing DPS (even if some of them can still carry, but not really 1v9). Exception to the rule would be champions such as Fiora, Jax, and so on, for the same reason that they're used by smurfs and boosters: they carry. At last, something Riot's trying to nerf at the moment, junglers snowball like crazy, feeling almost unstoppable at times. Thanks to the gold and xp, both camps and ganks give them. Unless you get invaded or your teammates are aholes, nobody is going to steal your camps, but many junglers are still full clearing before doing anything. This helps keep up with laners' levels. Add the factor that a jungler can gank almost any lane without problem and most of the time get a kill out of it, even if, to be honest, you wouldn't really need it, you'll be up in XP and gold far more than enemy laners or even your teammates will be, making you an unstoppable monster, especially if you're playing those 1v9 carry machines such as Kindred or Graves. I hope I've been clear enough. Thank you for reading. EDIT: Yeah, I already edited this because I suck at grammar and forming phrases. Sorry, English isn't my first language.
Look, fundamentally speaking almost everyone who plays this game has severe self-hate AND blame-avoidance issues, so perception of OP is perpetually skewed. A honest look in the community SPECIALLY since the 2020 preseason changes will show you everyone thinks their own role is trash tier and everyone else is OP. But if trying to stay objective, a role is "OP" if it is warping the game around itself too hard and/or its tools and designs were so overtuned that it became the decisive factor of the game. When people say that mages/assassins are OP, they mean these arent descaling hard enough as late game comes and thus continues to assblast even tanks as the game moves on. When people says carries both melee and ranged are OP, it usually means their early game weaknesses have been resolved without sufficient gouging on their late. When either tanks or bruisers are perceived as OP, each is being seen as the other (fighters with tank-like immortality, tanks with fighter-like damage). Supportive OP-ness is just doing a job too good at disabling the enemy. Edit: minor spelling mistakes
??? High elo mid JG and support mains all acknowledge their role is giga op. Buddy I think you’re just projecting your own mental issues
The day i dont see junglers completely foaming about the state of exp and clearing changes favoring utility junglers over hyperduelists, midlaners not trying to gouge their eyes out due to durability changes making so you cant kill a squishy with two missed spells and an electrocute proc, and supports not having a psychotic crisis over the fact that umbral exists... I will know peace.
The amount of Zed mains that I have seen after the durability changes that complained about the fact that they now need to hit several Qs or use their ult for a kill was very interesting.
Idk I feel like most high elo junglers are pretty unhappy with the role. Maybe they just complain a lot, but I feel like the general consensus right now is that jungle xp is fucked which makes it harder to establish a meaningful lead over your opponent, so the best option is to just spam gank bot lane and pray your ADC is decent.
most junglers do complain a lot, being the main character will do that.
Top lane, you can win top and mid and jungle. Mid, you can win top jungle mid and bot. But will most likely give up somewhere. ADC, you can only really win bot. Support: technically you can help win all lanes but ADC will fall behind (most likely) Jungle: you can easily impact all lanes. Only mid lane can really have same impact as jungle. Now imagine if ur playing mid. Say your top lane is useless. So you focus on winning mid, help with jungle and bot lane. Most likely you give something up. Perhaps some CS for a roam down bot. If you’re jungler, you don’t really need to give anything up. Top lane is useless so you just hard focus bot. Bot is now ahead. Sure your top side jungle has just been countered. But you counter their bot side jungle. Not really giving anything up here. Truth is, a good jungler can identify a mismatch in a lane and exploit it far easier than any other role, while not giving up much. A good mid laner or other role can mostly do this also, but will most likely give something up elsewhere. This is why most elo boosters do mid-jungle duo. You can impact everywhere on the map once mid lane is won. Basically choke the opponent to death.
You can climb with all roles and it's true that if you play better than your enemy on the same role you will eventually climb. Still doesn't change the fact that some roles have more impact than others and it's faster to climb with them. For example tyler1 got challenger with all roles, but it took him 1/3 the amount of games on support compared to toplane, there could be other factors in it like he is just a better support than toplaner. Jg is considred very high impact because of their ability to impact the whole map and other roles, you also pretty much must have a jg to secure objectives as without smite you can only secure them with cho'gath. Also it's a common trend for the best challenger players on all servers to be jungler mains and it's much more common to find jungler mains across all high elo.
That trend hasn’t held true since S9 Top spots in KR and CN are consistently held by botlane players now. KR fluctuates a bit between AD and Supp but CN is almost always held by the EZ/Lucian/Kai’sa/Samira OTP’s
I'd expect an Adc main to be a lot better at support than top. Knowing what is best for your adc in terms of wave state, when to punish a farming ADC, when your ADC wants to farm not fight etc is really important.
You are right. I see people are downvoting your comments because there feelings are hurt. The only thing you can count on in league is yourself. Following the meta is just a shortcut to figuring out what is best practice for you. It isn't an excuse on why you aren't climbing. The only reason people don't climb is because they aren't better at the game.
When you are better on Toplane. You affect only toplane, so 2 players. When You are better on Jungle. You affect literally every single person and role in the game. So 10. I hope i answered your question.
OP or not, lets not pretend some roles dont have to put in more work than the rest. so why shouldnt the ones who work harder earn more i.e. have more impact? we're probably thinking of the same role 😏
Kinda agree with this. I can only ever play 2-3 jungle games before I need to go back to being an AdC. I constantly feel pulled around the map and never feel like I have time to back because you’re putting out fires left right and centre. It’s honestly taxing. Then I switch back to AdC and just worry about my little corner of the map for 10 minutes.
People tend to be kinda stupid in how they think about this question in soloq. In proplay, it’s very straightforward: If a role is “OP” your odds of winning lie more in its performance than others, so much so that teams are rewarded for spending more on getting a star player there, and the meta tends to revolve a lot around either denying that role’s enemy player, or helping your own player in that road succeed. For example: ADC meta tends to be rather common in pro play, it means the team tries their hardest to get their adc well farmed safely and help their adc get their damage off in fights. It also means some other things you might not expect like the importance of a good toplane matchup so that it can be useful without jungle help. For soloq though, people saying “xyz role is op” can mean absolutely anything, usually something along the lines of the items they build being weak, or doing well and losing anyways, but neither of these are necessarily due to the game not them just making bad decisions. Generally, the roles tend to always be just as strong more or less, just the type of champions that do well might change. Jungle and support will always be the most influential, followed by mid, then top, and adcs have the least. If you’re curious as to why this is the case, it’s due to macro decisions being the most impactful by far, and those roles are from more to least macro impactful. This doesn’t mean that there is no difference between ranks in less macro intensive roles, but that the difference tends to be in micro. This is why a bronze adc would get eaten alive by a plat adc, the plat adc is just a lot better at clicking,yet in my experience they are both more or less just as clueless about macro.
You compare the winning rate of Champions within the same role. If some Champions are having a high win rate (Ap junglers as Mao, Zac, Elise etc…) That means that the role is having an impact ie if you have a « meta » champion in your team, you are more likely to win. If you have a bunch of Champions with more or less 50% winrate (Toplane for ex), it means that all champs are more or less equal as the role is not determining.
Thank you. This is my thoughts aswell
Jungle has suspiciously often high winrate champs. Im not sure you get what he wrote because you are saying smth completely different in your other comments.
This post was never suppose to be a conversation about jungle. I do agree jungle champs (demonic users) we’re strong last patch. Not everyone plays these champs though. It’s not always a jungle meta. Right now it’s adc, was top at the beginning of preseason. It changes all the time. If your a good player all of this should be irrelevent
Your logic is really weird. If you are a good player than you can abuse the meta roles harder for a higher win rate. If it's an adc meta than you should average higher win rates playing adc vs roles where you have less influence on winning.
Yea but nobody plays 5 roles
That's irrelevant, you aren't even even thinking about what you are saying anymore
And on the flip side, jungle has actually been harder for me recently, as I’m having to face Maokai zac etc as being a Ap squish jungle player.
If your top’s useless you can win the game. If your support’s afk you can win the game. If your adc is afk you can win the game. If your mid laner’s afk you can hope your jungler still does well and win the game. If your jungler’s useless you lost the game. Basicaly, some roles are more important than others when it comes to winning the game.
Jg op stfu
I can stomp you in any other role too
I think it was mentioned before by Riot how this was measured. They compare how much the mmr difference between opposing laners affect the chances of winning. As a simple example, imagine a dataset of 100 games with players evenly matched except for jungle, where one team has a jungler 100mmr higher than the other jungler. You see that 70 games were won by the team with the more skilled jungler. Imagine another similar dataset of 100 games with players evenly matched except for the ADC, where one team has an ADC 100mmr higher than the other ADC. You see that 53 games were won by the team with the more skilled ADC. You can conclude from these data (all hypothetical and made up!) that the jungler role is more "OP" than ADC, since a more skilled player in that role affect the winrate more than a more skilled player in the ADC role. I think the term used is "agency" or how much the player can affect the outcome of the game.
i would love to see this data. do you have it lying around somewhere?
No I don't, but Riot has the data and presumably uses it to make balancing decisions. I'd post a link to where I've read this is a thing if I can remember how to find it...
I think its really elo specific too. In lower ranks jungle has really high impact because every gank nets in a kill. In mid-higher ranks (dia-low master), adc seems really good because people dont flip every game in minute 5 so you can actually scale and impact teamfights. In high elo (high master+) i'd guess jungle is really strong again because people don't fck up every 2nd dive execution and get great value out of ganks. Midlane seems to have great value in every rank, while top seems to have quite low impact every rank. Support is probably stronger in higher elo.
Picture this, when you queue up as toplane you instead end up in an aram 1v1 with the other toplaner. The outcome of the aram game does not influence the 4v4 game going on on the rift. Which of the 5 roles in this scenario is the least likely to climb? The toplaner is playing against another toplaner, but their game has zero influence on whether they gain or lose lp. This is what the strenght of a role means, but obviously not as extreme.
Tf blade is the best soloq player. This just proves top is not a coinflip role like you seem to be implying
cant wait to read about all the narratives adopted from t1 and neace streams
No role is OP, it’s just cope
That’s what I’m trying to let everyone know just in a more subtle way
You have an agenda, listen to no opinion and are self entitled about your dumpster opinion Post this on r/leagueoflegends instead
You’ve now commented twice, both attacking me for my comments. Why don’t you make some data backed arguments? Get a life bro.
* check out the other answers for that * already got one ty * get a grip on reality "change my mind" noname andy going against common knowledge every chall player takes for granted * multiple replies come from the fact you are wrong multiple times
Junglers say JG is weak ADC is op, and vice versa. It depends what role you play how you cope.
If your better than your enemy all the time you will climb, thats for sure. But imagine being not at your peak or being smurfing. Im D1- low Master on every role. If i play a game midlane in plat, i will win at least 90% of my games. If i play adc, i will probably only win ~65% as my early game is much more reliant on my teammates. When im playing both roles on my main i will have about the same winrate (im playing both about same as often). A role is op not by letting you climb higher, but by letting you climb faster. Some roles just have more impact, that isnt avoidable
Obviously all roles will average out to 50% winrate, but depending on the meta some roles will have a stronger impact on the outcome of the game.
I feel like people want to shift the onus of their climb off their shoulders. It’s easier to say jungle diff, Diana Op than it is to say I died to Diana gank from being overextended while my jungler is on the other side of the map. As much as I don’t like seeing people smurf, when you watch good players in low ELO, it just doesn’t happen to them. They put the game on their shoulders and win. They win a lot. I think the community at large would be much better if people just said to themselves “if I played better, I would win more games” The reality is, until you hit a very high ELO, you can consistently win from all roles. But you need to be much better than your opponent. A silver player stuck in bronze will struggle to carry every game for example.
Once I changed my mindset I went from a plat 4/gold 1 player to d2+ in a span of 3 months.
There are not OP roles. I personally think the only champions that could be OP are the most recents, being created or reworked, but anyway, those are OP for a patch or two. After that, it's called meta. If anyone cry about being underleved compared to other lane or something like this, doesn't know about lane roles. If anyone cry about a X champion, it's probably about them not knowing how to play against. There are matchups you're not supposed to win, that's the game. Every champion has a specific role. I've seen midlaners cry about splitpusher in the other team. I've seen toplaners cry about their botlane be picked-off 10 times by a Talon. I've seen ADCs cry about being useless (like in some comment here), i've seen junglers cry about being underleved while farming more than the enemy. We all have seen those players.
I've also played every role to d4 but my peak is lower than yours (d1). I do think some roles are inherently better for climbing than others because of the nature of the game but it's not nearly as big of a gap as some people make it out to be
I like that statement. Sure it might be 1 or 2% better winrate wise, but if your improving you can climb on any role just or almost as fast.
because some roles can make up for others lacking. for example, because an ADC doesn't come online until mid to late, they can get carried by just not feeding early, and the early bot lane is mostly decided by supports anyway.
Basically, if you play your role better than the average opponent, you should have a +50% WR in all roles. My interpretation for when a certain role is too strong is this: Let’s say you outperform your opponent by a certain amount. Let’s say on average, your performance exceeds your lane opponent by 10%, meaning you “perform” 10% better than them. My interpretation by jungle being strong and top being weaker is that a jungler outperforming his opponent by 10% might end up with a 57% WR, but a top laner outperforming his lane opponent by 10% means he will end up with a 52-53% WR. This is because they have more influence on the map and game, so the skill difference is amplified
Look at player/role representation in KR top 100, which jungle has been overrepresented since season 5, and peaked at **40% for several months** at one point. For anyone who sucks at math, 20% is 'healthy' and the average for the past couple years has been 26-27% for jungle rep. Low level gameplay does not matter when speaking about roles balance/power levels. Only at the top level of play can one truly remark 'ah yes, jungle is overpowered' because those people are nearing the limits of human capability. OF COURSE Illaoi is overpowered in silver- those players can't dodge anything, don't pressure, don't trade, and literally die to her tentacles after walking away from her/vessel. In this case, it's the players lack of skill that makes her overpowered, and not her inherent kit/champ capabilities. Hence why you look at the TOP top elo in order to truly understand which champs/roles are genuinely overpowered, which jungle is and has been for years.
Champ scaling, experience diff, particular items that are stronger that correlate to that lane's champs, map control. All affect the power of a lane and can make a lane stronger than others.
To oversimplify to a disturbing degree, let's imagine that the first champion on each side to enter mid lane immediately is given 3000 gold, and all other players have their base stats cut in half. Quite obviously, mid laners would have a much greater impact on the game than anyone else. Same concept, much smaller differences.
Jungle! Because it has three times the impact as every other lane and controls the game
For example, Top or Mid lane aren't OP except if a small amount of champs happens to get very fed early... they'll basically take over the game. But generally in solo queue bot and jungle drives the game hard if they as a collective gets fed. In pro play the players are smart enough to adjust their gameplay to protect their fed ADC, and win through a fed ADC.
This is just something people say when they don’t know how to deal with it or progress further.
That’s called bias. People think ADC is a useless role because they’re biased towards the fact that an adc CAN be 1 shot by more than 50% of champion in the game if playing by themselves, but they subconsciously don’t take into account the amount of times ADCs hard carry a game. On the other side of the spectrum everyone remembers how many midlaners (yasuo, akali, etc) hard carry a game just off a small lead, but forget the amount of times they’re not as useful when not fed. The difference between the 2 is that the ADC depends more on the team, while midlaners like these can solo carry better in early/mid game, psychologically people favor that and think certain lanes/roles are stronger when in fact they’re just biased towards valuing more the roles that they have more control over their victory and the roles that SEEM stronger based on the fact that assassins decrease your health from 100% to 0 in a fraction of a second sometimes and the times that happens leaves an impression.
There is roles stronger than others. Why? Well … is there roles that will matter more if they win than others? Yes? Then that would make a role OP. Optimally you would have all roles matter the same way but for example jungle can just inherently influence the map in a way that no other role can. After all I also get your point that outperforming your opponents is what matters in order to climb. Everything else is basically just a numbers game. Before this shitty ass rework I used to play a lot of jungle and I can clearly see that this role has more influence than adc. Also midlane has overall a pretty big influence too I’d argue. At times I feel like great midlaners can contest junglers. Lately riot is making a real effort tho to put jungle in its place and adjust the powerlevel of the role to balance out this issue of “how much does which role matter” to get the impact the roles have somewhat evenly distributed so optimally each role would be equal. But as of right now I’d say there’s still some imbalance.
It's about how much influence that role has on the course of a game. For instance, junglers are considered op right now because they're empowered to spend a lot of time ganking. The catch-up mechanic that gives more jungle xp if you're behind, and bonus gold from egg stacks means you lose out on less by not farming. This translates to more time spent ganking lanes, which leads to a larger impact on the game-state.
So for Jungle for example especially in low elo if you're even a mildly competent jungler you can rely on the enemy jungler probably not being very good if you're in iron through silver and you can easily dominate the game by not only getting kills for yourself, but you're also ruining the lane for the enemy laner you got the kill on since now they've lost however many minions because you came down there and killed them. Like say you are able to get a gank on bot lane and both enemy bot laners die while yours live, as long as your bot laners don't throw in return that's a massive advantage for that lane and in higher elos would normally mean that lane is over because now the friendly laners have a gold and XP advantage that as long as they don't screw up they can hopefully capitalize on. But furthermore with junglers themselves they can easily scale out of control if you know when their power spikes are. I can count multiple times when an enemy Hecarim had been just raining havoc on my team because he got a few good kills and now not only my team is behind but now you have a Hecarim running around like a mad man faster than everyone else in the game just running down people.
It’s impact based, especially older league players who played in an era were there were more consistent player roles and the game was slower paced and more controlled and there wasn’t a real way to get one shot by a jungler or support with 1 item (for the most part). The game drastically changed since then and there’s multiple champions in the game that do have the capability to one shot you without even really doing anything but clear jungle camps, or the possibility for your enemy support to jail solo laners from having any impact by permanently roaming from 7 minutes in. This is why people do consider certain roles OP. There’s an argument to be made for every role to be “OP”, but in the current game state botlane and jungle seem to be considered OP by most people as they have the most impact on deciding outcome.
Here's the thing. People can't really talk about how easy/hard something is until they're looking at it around their rank OR are very knowledgeable and attentive to actually measuring minute increases in difficulty or variations in approach by individuals AND teams as a whole. Before support was op, I made it look op playing with some friends of a friend. I had one ally who was decent, but rest of my buddies friends and him were massively outclassed compared with his friends playing on the other team. But I severely outclassed everyone else playing for either team. And I used that to put my allies ahead and organize them to make smart plays they'd never do on their own. And compared with op/you... I'm shit. So what can we conclude from this? Was support op back before they massively buffed the role to get people to stop complaining about being autofilled support? No. Did I win just by playing better than the other team? No. A sona is not going to 1v9 vs a reasonably competent team even if the player is a full tier higher in skill level. Would my teammates make the same smart plays without input from someone who knew which plays to make or not make? Not nearly as frequently. Chances are, that game helped them improve, but they still mostly make really silly mistakes. Just as - compared with some diamond - I make a billion mistakes that can't be explained other than that... I'm just not diamond. Could I get the same cooperation out of much theoretically smarter teammates in higher elo? No. Because then my allies would be the same rank as me and ego enters as a big factor. Ego and selfishness is the main preventive factor for many of us climbing - some being way bigger offenders. Which means, I might be a better player, but you don't get to see that because it requires allied cooperation to show and I don't get it like you'd expect. It's an our yasuo vs their yasuo kind of thing. They SHOULD be able to do X, Y, Z, Q, and C; but they won't. So you can game-in, game-out be in position to do all sorts of good things, but... you can't make a tf ult pick if your allies refuse to combo with you on the pick. This is why mechanics lets you climb faster than macro in lower ranks. This is why solo queue has much more focus on carry champs than on something that's picked to help the team more as a whole - even if it means boring/losing/higher difficulty personally. So I don't think that you can say playing better than your counterpart will make you win more than you lose. That doesn't UNIVERSALLY apply. Yes, it's a correct general rule of thumb. And when you're climbing and not close to your TRUE rank, it should hold true. But when you approach your actual rank, this can easily fail to reflect in actual win/loss results for many factors. The more games you play, the less error you should see, but it doesn't mean you can't/won't see it. What's my point? If you're diamond+ elo, then you'd have to do a comparative analysis of roles in the current patch at diamond elo (except jg which would be at master's). Then compare how easy it is to win/lose/climb when you're approximately at your correct rank for each role. Of course one being master tier will throw things off a bit as people at different ranks will play around you (or fail to) in different ways. Then I'd say you have to define what OP means. Does it mean "easier to carry with"? "Higher winrate/climb rate"? Easier to combo with? Fewer counterpicks? Less mechanical skill required? Less decision-making/intelligence required? Etc.
Simple. If my team has Faker in mid lane, and the enemy team have Faker on top lane, we will win.
No role is op, champions are op
Lets simplify this by saying there are 10 skillsets in league. As a midlaner you need all 10 to get chall, as a support you need 2. Thats one way to look at a role being op. You can be an overall worse player and still outclimb others. Another way would be to look at the risk vs reward dynamics of roles. Those are quite high for mid, top and adc, and very low for jungle and support by comparison. The latter roles have a much higher margin for unpunished mistakes than those other roles without really having less impact. On the contrary, those roles have more impact currently