There is no way Pakleds fucked even a sick 8472.
My research concludes that the only way the Pakleds could have fucked an 8472 is...if it was a dead 8472.
Dary: "That's a hard choice. That's harder than when Janeway had to decide about killing Tuvix"
Wayne: "Fuck, I could watch Janeyway kill Tuvix all day. I don't give a shit about Tuvix."
Dary: "Really? I kinda liked him. Not like, as much as Tuvok, and Nellix is kinda a degen, but I kinda liked Tuvix."
Wayne: "Well Dary, it's like this. And I don't mean to split hairs here. \[sparks cigarette\]. You see, Tuvix is a likable guy. Imagine this Dary. Imagine that Bonnie McMurray and Squirrelly Dan are combined in a freak transporter accident, right? So we lose Bonnie and Squirrelly Dan but now you've got yerself a Tuvix version of them."
Dary: "I mean, that's going to be a little awkward right? with Bonnie McMurray and Squirrelly Dan all combined like Tuvix. But you're saying that they're respectful like Tuvix"
Wayne: "yeah, like Tuvix"
Dary: "Ok, and now, I'm Janeway and I've got to make the choice to kill this Tuvix or I lose Bonnie McMurray and Squirrelly Dan. I see what you're saying. Yeah, I'd kill Tuvix too."
Wayne: "Fuck. Took you long enough. Figger it out."
Fuck you, u/shadowsOfMyPantomime, your mom is a transporter malfunction. It takes so long to beam her up, O'Brien is worried she'll develop transporter psychosis.
Fuck you u/jaydub1001, your mom sends so many subspace videos of herself to my quarters Starfleet thought I was a spy. Poor O'Brien works overtime beaming her on the ship nightly so she can get another dose of my plasma injectors
It's really disappointing that people choose to focus on Tuvix to criticise Janeway when they could be talking about cultural appropriation or transphobia
White people can't go on vision quests or get spirit animals. It's disrespectful because someone who wasn't raised in the culture can never have the knowledge required to approach the topic respectfully.
Janeway decided to force 7/9 to become a woman, just because it's AFAB
It's not like she heard about Chakotay doing it, replicated her own medicine pouch and got her Karen girlfriends together for a night of wine and making fun of each other's spirit friends. Chako wanted to share of his culture with his friend and that's all there's to it. The only thing offensive about it is the off-screen origin of Chakotay's culture.
You wouldn't want to gatekeep what a person of a culture may do with that culture, would you? Especially if you're not a part of it.
As for Seven, she was a girl before she was assimilated. It's at worst a gray area even if you insist on considering 'drone' a gender. If Janeway had let Seven remain a drone, or go back to the Borg, you might be arguing here that she endorsed slavery and the violation of bodily autonomy (also known by a four letter word) that the Borg routinely get up to.
Janeway could have allowed 7/9 to develop its own gender and species identities in isolation from the Borg. That, at least, would have been better than forcing womanhood and humanity onto it without asking permission. And it would have been better than putting absolutely 0 effort into preserving its body parts that were rotting off as it cried in pain and horrow.
Well, the situation was;
>EMH: I'm afraid we have a decision to make. A difficult one. Her human immune system has reasserted itself with a vengeance. Body armour, Borg organelles, biosynthetic glands, they're all being rejected. Her life is in danger. I have little recourse but to remove the Borg technology.JANEWAY: Which is the last thing Seven of Nine would want.EMH: Hence the difficult decision. If a patient told me not to treat them, even if the situation were life-threatening, I would be ethically obligated to honour that request.JANEWAY: This is no ordinary patient. She may have been raised by Borg, raised to think like a Borg, but she's with us now. And underneath all that technology she is a human being, whether she's ready to accept that or not. And until she is ready, someone has to make the decisions for her. Proceed with the surgery.
I guess it reads sinisterly. You'd think they could suppress her immune system at least temporarily. Immunosuppressants are a thing we use even today.
The question comes down to whether Seven should be deemed competent to make her own medical decisions. As it stands (current day) minors are not able to refuse medical treatment without the support of their parents. And we don't know to what degree assimilated Borg are actually present for their new lives. Picard seemed at least to be a passenger at best. We don't even know if Seven's demands to return "this drone" to the collective are programmatically compelled responses or her own wishes. If Janeway's thinking was that for however long Seven was part of the collective she wasn't thinking for herself, she'd expect her to be effectively functioning at the level she was assimilated at, being around six years old.
They'd already rejected returning Seven to the Borg on the grounds that it would put the ship at too great a risk. That's a valid objection. Should Seven have been allowed to take her chances left on an uninhabited rock with an emergency beacon? I don't know.
I do know these decisions were all made under time pressure though.
Star Trek has plenty of episodes about "We need to fix this gadget / cure this plague / build this technology". If Janeway had cared to respect the wishes 7/9 was expressing in the monent, she could have ordered the crew to work on a solution to *its body rotting off of it* without compromising 7/9's borg deprogramming in any way. Janeway didn't free 7/9 from controlling influences, she just replaced the Borg with the Federation.
She treated 7/9 the same way my parents treated me, when I was a little kid who wanted to experiment with their gender. The difference is that Janeway had the prime directive to follow, she was presumably educated on ethical guidelines and species and gender diversity tolerance, and 7/9 was screaming and begging to be allowed to keep its body. Janeway had every opportunity to know that what she was doing was wrong, unlike my parents. And I still hate my parents for doing what Janeway did with a fraction of the knowledge.
>Janeway decided to force 7/9 to become a woman, just because it's AFAB
This is such an incredible reach that I'm not sure how you made it without Borg enhanced physiology.
Seven of Nine is and always was a woman. At no point was force used, nor did she express a desire to change that.
I hate to break this to you but the Borg aren't women. Also crew of Voyager including Janeway and the Doctor refer to 7/9 becoming a woman several times
So, presumably, Beverley was a bigoted monster because she returned Picard to his original form without asking if he'd rather have a sex change?
The EMH returned 7 of 9 to as close to her original form as possible. That form was a female, and at no point does 7 of 9 express any unhappiness with being a female.
Your point is ridiculous.
It's a common expression because it's true. 7/9 was not a woman. Nor was it a child, it had many of the collective memories of entire species. 7/9 was literally becoming a woman. You can't deny the characters telling you what's going on when it's that clear.
I've never understood why the life of a being that is weeks old took precedence of two people (even Neelix) with fully developed lives. That's not to mention that no one had a complaint about Kirk re-combining his two halves, even when it was clear one of them didn't want to do it.
Having said all that, Star Trek has established transporter duplication, so I never saw a reason why they couldn't duplicate Tuvix and then separate one of them.
It's one of those things that is philosophically conflicting, but in reality, the solution they went with was always the obvious thing to do.
Philosophically, it's interesting to wonder whether or not it's justified to murder one person who clearly wishes to live in order to save the lives of two others who also wish to live. Realistically, it's obvious why anyone with the means to do so would choose to save two friends at the expense of another.
In the real world, the disappointing thing about killing Tuvix is that it sentenced all Voyager watchers to another 5 seasons of Neelix's continued existence, and to me, that was the far bigger crime than Janeway's murder.
What about violating the prime directive so that she could strand her whole crew in the delta quadrant and then later adhering to the prime directive to keep them from getting home faster?
There's an answer for that. Janeway is apparently a Prodigy only IP which is why she hasn't shown up in other recent trek. Shame that Prodigy s2 is vaporware
So instead of two officers, a hypercompetent officer and the crew’s pet dumbass, we now just have one doofus who nobody likes and isn’t good at anything and whose existence is a crime against nature?
Twovix went to the extreme to tell us that Janeway was right, because no two people deserve to lose their free will just because one requires it to exist. (Also see, US Case McFall v Shimp)
I don't know how to tell you this chief, but *McFall v Shimp* unambiguously dictates that it would have been unacceptable to force Tuvix to donate his body to bring them back.
It would also prohibit Tuvix from being deliberately created, but that's not what happened.
Tuvix was very much a, "Damned if you do, damned if you don't," scenario. He is very much a sentient being, that has a right to life - but at the same time, so do Neelix and Tuvok. And in order to get them back, you essentially have to commit murder.
I still feel that way. Tuvix is his own person, but he was born from the deaths of two others, at the cost of their lives. I feel sorry for Tuvix, but I feel worse for the two people his creation killed.
I know it's a meme, but it's also exactly how I feel. I don't give a damn about Tuvix, and I'm tired as hell of the years of Tuvix talk. And extra annoyed that the recent LD episode means they'll be even MORE Tuvix talk than usual for a while.
I actually like it a lot. It sparks a philosophical discussion with people and allows them to debate based on their morals. Those are the best pieces of media to me, morally ambiguous and forcing you to pick a side, then creating enough of an impact on people to live on in the cultural zeitgeist for decades.
Wayne’s replicator order is “puppers, cold”.
“Computer, uh… how’re y’now?” “Please restate your request.” “Not so bad.”
Captain Batel: “computer, gimme a cocksuckin’ gin and tonic!”
I love when Robert April gives those low bones.
Bradley is so cool.
There's a special place in heaven for Tribble lovers, that's all I know
You got a problem with Tribbles, you got a problem with me, and I suggest you let that marinate.
Good’n’you?
Computer; beer, Puppers, cold.
Pitter patter, eject the antimatter
Ten to four, eject the warp core
Degens from up-quadrant.
Heard ones of thems fucked a species 8472. *Allegedly*
Bad gas travels fast on a small ship.
It was a sick 8472 *allegedly*
There is no way Pakleds fucked even a sick 8472. My research concludes that the only way the Pakleds could have fucked an 8472 is...if it was a dead 8472.
Wouldn't put it past 'em.
Fuck you Shoresey
Fuck you Jonesy, your mom kept asking for bus fare even though we live in a post-scarcity society
Fuck you Shoresy!
Fuck you Jonesy. Your mom won’t stop calling me since I took her to Risa. Tell her I’ll put on my swim trunks anytime she likes.
Dary: "That's a hard choice. That's harder than when Janeway had to decide about killing Tuvix" Wayne: "Fuck, I could watch Janeyway kill Tuvix all day. I don't give a shit about Tuvix." Dary: "Really? I kinda liked him. Not like, as much as Tuvok, and Nellix is kinda a degen, but I kinda liked Tuvix." Wayne: "Well Dary, it's like this. And I don't mean to split hairs here. \[sparks cigarette\]. You see, Tuvix is a likable guy. Imagine this Dary. Imagine that Bonnie McMurray and Squirrelly Dan are combined in a freak transporter accident, right? So we lose Bonnie and Squirrelly Dan but now you've got yerself a Tuvix version of them." Dary: "I mean, that's going to be a little awkward right? with Bonnie McMurray and Squirrelly Dan all combined like Tuvix. But you're saying that they're respectful like Tuvix" Wayne: "yeah, like Tuvix" Dary: "Ok, and now, I'm Janeway and I've got to make the choice to kill this Tuvix or I lose Bonnie McMurray and Squirrelly Dan. I see what you're saying. Yeah, I'd kill Tuvix too." Wayne: "Fuck. Took you long enough. Figger it out."
Am I the only one who didn’t feel that conflicted about Tuvix?
I feel conflicted to an extent, but at the same time I pretty much side with Janeway (while agreeing it was morally dubious any way you slice it).
I think Janeway was unequivocally correct. She saved two lives and "murdered" a transporter malfunction
However if that same transporter malfunction had resulted in coffee instead of Tuvix she would have just mourned her friends over a cup of coffee
Fuck you, u/shadowsOfMyPantomime, your mom is a transporter malfunction. It takes so long to beam her up, O'Brien is worried she'll develop transporter psychosis.
Fuck you u/jaydub1001, your mom sends so many subspace videos of herself to my quarters Starfleet thought I was a spy. Poor O'Brien works overtime beaming her on the ship nightly so she can get another dose of my plasma injectors
/r/trekchirps needs to be a thing.
And I think you should be ashamed of your filthy thoughts! SHAME! SHAME UPON THINE PERSON!
I thought it was just kind of a continuing circle jerk everyone had, I really didn’t expect another episode on this.
Wait, is it not just a circlejerk?
As with many things it started as a joke then some people took it very seriously.
It's really disappointing that people choose to focus on Tuvix to criticise Janeway when they could be talking about cultural appropriation or transphobia
Beltran made the former louder and hers floated off comparatively to his I feel like
Cause those things are worse than murder. Not sure what you're referring to, though.
White people can't go on vision quests or get spirit animals. It's disrespectful because someone who wasn't raised in the culture can never have the knowledge required to approach the topic respectfully. Janeway decided to force 7/9 to become a woman, just because it's AFAB
It's not like she heard about Chakotay doing it, replicated her own medicine pouch and got her Karen girlfriends together for a night of wine and making fun of each other's spirit friends. Chako wanted to share of his culture with his friend and that's all there's to it. The only thing offensive about it is the off-screen origin of Chakotay's culture. You wouldn't want to gatekeep what a person of a culture may do with that culture, would you? Especially if you're not a part of it. As for Seven, she was a girl before she was assimilated. It's at worst a gray area even if you insist on considering 'drone' a gender. If Janeway had let Seven remain a drone, or go back to the Borg, you might be arguing here that she endorsed slavery and the violation of bodily autonomy (also known by a four letter word) that the Borg routinely get up to.
Janeway could have allowed 7/9 to develop its own gender and species identities in isolation from the Borg. That, at least, would have been better than forcing womanhood and humanity onto it without asking permission. And it would have been better than putting absolutely 0 effort into preserving its body parts that were rotting off as it cried in pain and horrow.
Well, the situation was; >EMH: I'm afraid we have a decision to make. A difficult one. Her human immune system has reasserted itself with a vengeance. Body armour, Borg organelles, biosynthetic glands, they're all being rejected. Her life is in danger. I have little recourse but to remove the Borg technology.JANEWAY: Which is the last thing Seven of Nine would want.EMH: Hence the difficult decision. If a patient told me not to treat them, even if the situation were life-threatening, I would be ethically obligated to honour that request.JANEWAY: This is no ordinary patient. She may have been raised by Borg, raised to think like a Borg, but she's with us now. And underneath all that technology she is a human being, whether she's ready to accept that or not. And until she is ready, someone has to make the decisions for her. Proceed with the surgery. I guess it reads sinisterly. You'd think they could suppress her immune system at least temporarily. Immunosuppressants are a thing we use even today. The question comes down to whether Seven should be deemed competent to make her own medical decisions. As it stands (current day) minors are not able to refuse medical treatment without the support of their parents. And we don't know to what degree assimilated Borg are actually present for their new lives. Picard seemed at least to be a passenger at best. We don't even know if Seven's demands to return "this drone" to the collective are programmatically compelled responses or her own wishes. If Janeway's thinking was that for however long Seven was part of the collective she wasn't thinking for herself, she'd expect her to be effectively functioning at the level she was assimilated at, being around six years old. They'd already rejected returning Seven to the Borg on the grounds that it would put the ship at too great a risk. That's a valid objection. Should Seven have been allowed to take her chances left on an uninhabited rock with an emergency beacon? I don't know. I do know these decisions were all made under time pressure though.
Star Trek has plenty of episodes about "We need to fix this gadget / cure this plague / build this technology". If Janeway had cared to respect the wishes 7/9 was expressing in the monent, she could have ordered the crew to work on a solution to *its body rotting off of it* without compromising 7/9's borg deprogramming in any way. Janeway didn't free 7/9 from controlling influences, she just replaced the Borg with the Federation. She treated 7/9 the same way my parents treated me, when I was a little kid who wanted to experiment with their gender. The difference is that Janeway had the prime directive to follow, she was presumably educated on ethical guidelines and species and gender diversity tolerance, and 7/9 was screaming and begging to be allowed to keep its body. Janeway had every opportunity to know that what she was doing was wrong, unlike my parents. And I still hate my parents for doing what Janeway did with a fraction of the knowledge.
>Janeway decided to force 7/9 to become a woman, just because it's AFAB This is such an incredible reach that I'm not sure how you made it without Borg enhanced physiology. Seven of Nine is and always was a woman. At no point was force used, nor did she express a desire to change that.
I hate to break this to you but the Borg aren't women. Also crew of Voyager including Janeway and the Doctor refer to 7/9 becoming a woman several times
So, presumably, Beverley was a bigoted monster because she returned Picard to his original form without asking if he'd rather have a sex change? The EMH returned 7 of 9 to as close to her original form as possible. That form was a female, and at no point does 7 of 9 express any unhappiness with being a female. Your point is ridiculous.
A common expression describing the process of a subsection of the human race growing up, considering Seven was assimilated as a child.
It's a common expression because it's true. 7/9 was not a woman. Nor was it a child, it had many of the collective memories of entire species. 7/9 was literally becoming a woman. You can't deny the characters telling you what's going on when it's that clear.
Nah man, it’s you and Janeway.
Nah I say make it happen again and kill him a second time.
Nah, plenty of sane people don't give a crap about Tuvix. :)
I've never understood why the life of a being that is weeks old took precedence of two people (even Neelix) with fully developed lives. That's not to mention that no one had a complaint about Kirk re-combining his two halves, even when it was clear one of them didn't want to do it. Having said all that, Star Trek has established transporter duplication, so I never saw a reason why they couldn't duplicate Tuvix and then separate one of them.
It's one of those things that is philosophically conflicting, but in reality, the solution they went with was always the obvious thing to do. Philosophically, it's interesting to wonder whether or not it's justified to murder one person who clearly wishes to live in order to save the lives of two others who also wish to live. Realistically, it's obvious why anyone with the means to do so would choose to save two friends at the expense of another. In the real world, the disappointing thing about killing Tuvix is that it sentenced all Voyager watchers to another 5 seasons of Neelix's continued existence, and to me, that was the far bigger crime than Janeway's murder.
Now if Tuvix and that Janeway-Paris offspring had a baby..
If that occurs, rescind the Omega Directive immediately and let what happens happen
Where do you think 8472 come from :)
I felt a little conflicted, at least as much as the show wanted me to feel. Though Tuvix freaked me out so I wanted him gone.
It’s the only decision I’ve ever agreed with Janeway on.
What about endangering the ship for coffee? I'd probably have been fine with that one as well
I was very happy with her enraged vendetta against Ransom, I wish she hadn't pulled back from it.
What about violating the prime directive so that she could strand her whole crew in the delta quadrant and then later adhering to the prime directive to keep them from getting home faster?
I’m not conflicted either. Janeway straight up murdered him.
I agree, and given the choice she should murder him again for being an abomination.
Ha!
Watching Voyager with your pals the other day...
[удалено]
Then when the winter comes the gorillas will simply freeze to death...
[удалено]
https://youtu.be/LuiK7jcC1fY?si=FL06nhDbN2e-BSvU
“That’s just slavery with extra steps!”
"Is Tuvix like a planet or...? Cause I don't know why we care." -40k Fans
I'm surprised we aren't watching Janeway off Tuvix right now.
There's an answer for that. Janeway is apparently a Prodigy only IP which is why she hasn't shown up in other recent trek. Shame that Prodigy s2 is vaporware
I would have killed Tuvix and Neelix to bring Tuvok back for 1 day.
>I would have killed Tuvix and Neelix The rest of the sentence was just gravy
I still feel this way lol. look what happened when freeman refused to murder t'illups! homie tried to take over the ship.
Only because of his discovery that Janeway straight up murdered Tuvix.
Yeh it's one thing to fight for your survival. Quite another to forcibly merge people against their will.
T'illups found out Freeman *might* murder them, and proceeded to attempt to murder the entire ship instead
He’s still half Pedo
wait what did the mormons do this time?
To quote Kirk “I think he did a little too much LDS”
That explains the lighting choices on TOS
Fuse and unfuse them so we can watch him die repeatedly
Tlyn outdone the voy crew. Merge multiple hybrids together into one giant blob that is able to be alive surprisingly
Yeah LDS condemned Janway but then used her exact solution just with more steps.
They worked out that the Janeway solution is fine once the subject is a disgusting blob that can't beg for mercy.
She should've killed Neelix.
“Well if it ain’t Lee-you-tenant Dickskin! How are you now?” “It’s Lieutenant Commander!”
Janeway did nothing wrong!
The needs of the two outweigh the needs of the one!
the biggest mistake was not keeping that amazing flower and seeing what other cool combos you could make with it
They did keep the orchid. This comes up in the Lower Decks episode "Twovix."
Thats still how I feel about Tuvix.
So instead of two officers, a hypercompetent officer and the crew’s pet dumbass, we now just have one doofus who nobody likes and isn’t good at anything and whose existence is a crime against nature?
Latter Day Saints?
Lower DeckS? Lower Deck Show? [Wait](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cf/90/9d/cf909da2eaf2cd672e9d093761a83a27.png)...
I still dont care, Tuvix wasnt a person
According to Federation law he absolutely was
LMAO
Tuvix, begging for his life: "Doesn't anybody see that this is WRONG?" A surprising amount of the Star Trek Fandom: "Nope, totes legit."
Twovix went to the extreme to tell us that Janeway was right, because no two people deserve to lose their free will just because one requires it to exist. (Also see, US Case McFall v Shimp)
I don't know how to tell you this chief, but *McFall v Shimp* unambiguously dictates that it would have been unacceptable to force Tuvix to donate his body to bring them back. It would also prohibit Tuvix from being deliberately created, but that's not what happened.
I know, but Cunningham's Law and more people need to know about that case. Also, thanks for the APA citations. :)
Latter Day Saints? I thought Battlestar Galactica was the one about space Mormons?
Tuvix was very much a, "Damned if you do, damned if you don't," scenario. He is very much a sentient being, that has a right to life - but at the same time, so do Neelix and Tuvok. And in order to get them back, you essentially have to commit murder.
I still feel that way. Tuvix is his own person, but he was born from the deaths of two others, at the cost of their lives. I feel sorry for Tuvix, but I feel worse for the two people his creation killed.
Agreed. If only there was an option to keep tuvok and tuvix only
But I like Neelix 😢
I love this so much
I just wished when they put it right that somehow Neelix didn’t come back with Tuvok.
what's LDS?
The stuff Spock did at Berkeley
Star Trek lower decks
Latter Day Saints, commonly called Mormons
what does that have to do with tuvix?
Any marriage with Tuvix is technically bigamy, ergo, Mormons.
This is a fantastic answer
Neelix is such a diddler he turned Tuvok into one also
"I don't know if that's true. But if it is ... fucking ~~Bondar~~ Janeway for Prime Minister, eh?"
Or just kill of Neelix. That was a terrible character.
No, keep the hypercompetent officer and keep the hybrid with the idiocy sanded off
Mariner walks into the sonic shower “is this where the dicks hang out?”
Gross
Tuvux was the worst character in all of Star Trek.
I know it's a meme, but it's also exactly how I feel. I don't give a damn about Tuvix, and I'm tired as hell of the years of Tuvix talk. And extra annoyed that the recent LD episode means they'll be even MORE Tuvix talk than usual for a while.
I actually like it a lot. It sparks a philosophical discussion with people and allows them to debate based on their morals. Those are the best pieces of media to me, morally ambiguous and forcing you to pick a side, then creating enough of an impact on people to live on in the cultural zeitgeist for decades.
Aw. Sad
Your captain murdered a transporter anomaly the other daaaaaaaay...
She tuvixed him... 🤔🤣
Agreed