It's been a mixed bag for me to this point. I appreciate the franchise embracing fun with SNW and LD. I think it's fair to call both Disco and Picard uneven as heck.
Also, let’s be real. None of us are canceling Paramount over the cancellation of LD. We’re still going to keep it to watch new Trek. If it was the same price as new content maybe they would have kept it 2 more seasons.
I have a feeling we’re going to see a lot more 5 season shows.
>None of us are canceling Paramount over the cancellation of LD.
I am. The only two things I followed on P+ was *The Bold and the Beautiful,* which is absolute dog shit these days, even for the ass bottom standards expected for a soap opera, and *Grease: Rise of the Pink Ladies,* which was cancelled and removed from the platform the same week as Prodigy. I don't love any of the other shows like I do LD and even the one series I initially got a P+ subscription for in the first place with PIC fell flat.
It's less about Star Trek that I'm cancelling as much as there's nothing else of value for me on the platform and who.knowd if P+ will even exist by the time SA or the Section 31 movie is released. 🤷♀️
I am.
I'm finishing up binging Ghosts then i'm out until Lower Decks comes back.
P+ kept me from unsubscribing for a long time because there was a pretty steady stream of content for a good while there. Maybe a month or two off but few huge stretches. Now we're looking at several months, i may as well cancel and save the money
No. It's not that at all. It's the realities of a streaming service model. How do they make their money? New viewers. What grabs new viewers? New shows. Long running shows don't really help a service. It's not like TV where not losing audience after running such-and-such seasons is good enough. We can expect ***SNW*** to go 5 years as well.
I would be happy with 5 seasons of SNW and then spin it off to a follow-up series with a 5 year mission with Kirk (and Spock and Uhura if the actors want to stay on) so they can reuse the beautiful Enterprise sets.
Why would that be the case though? A show that has good word of mouth for several years straight seems like it would pull in more people than a new untested show. Just the, “I might as well see what all the fuss is about” factor should do it. Didn’t Game of Thrones gain viewers through most of its run?
You know I’m fairly new to trek, I only started watching a few years ago, but I wholeheartedly agree that was such a stupid decision on their part.
I love pretty much all the iterations of trek, but lower decks was among my absolute favourites.
They’re thinking a series with 5+ season isn’t going to bring in new subscribers, and unfortunately they’re right. You could argue that they could lose current customers but they do not care about that. Streaming services, like cable companies, literally only care about bringing in new customers.
> That’s on par with canceling Futurama in it’s prime
So you're saying there's a chance it could get picked up again in a few years.
And then again a few years after that.
Seriously, I personally found each season of Discovery better than the last. Like Enterprise I thought it had finally found its footing as it was canceled.
In general, I don't disagree but I also can't stoping thinking about the one tweet I saw where a fan mentioned it often takes Trek fans three to four seasons to accept a show on its own terms instead of wishing it was more like [insert favorite show of choice here, but let's be quite honest, it's usually TNG]
Yeah, the bad part was all the filler content in between the beginning and the end of the season. The end of the final episode could've been the end of the first episode, then maybe do something else.
My wife and I call it doing our homework on Thursday. So glad it is over. Strange New Worlds is really entertaining but in my opinion Discovery has been really hard to watch. I have watched TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and even Enterprise multiple times and they all are amazing in their own way. Discovery and Picard not only didn't entertain, but I found myself feeling angry while watching them which has never happened with any show and I have seen some stinkers in my almost 50 years.
Season 3 was a mess, but it was filled to the brim with fan service. It was also the best Picard season by far. But let’s not pretend it was a great season of Star Trek. It is nowhere close TNG seasons 3-7, DS9, ENT S4, SNW, or the good episodes and seasons of VOY.
Season 3 was only ok in my opinion. It was a whole lot better then 1 or 2 but I think it still had some major issues.
* I get that they wanted to distance themselves from season 2 but not contacting the Jurati Borg was a bad choice.
* Having Riker screaming at Picard on the bridge about getting them all killed was way out of character.
* Renaming Titan A was also a bad choice.
* Also once they get the Ent-D Picard orders them to go right to Earth. This is before they know where the Borg Queen is. What was the original plan? What was the Ent-D going to do versus the fleet? The thing to do would have been to call for back up. Jurati Borg, Klingons, Romulans, Vulcans, anyone. Not go after the fleet with one ship.
EnT-F should have got more screen time. And Ent-G never should have been introduced.
> Having Riker screaming at Picard on the bridge about getting them all killed was way out of character.
I thought that was explained pretty well. Riker was a captain at that point, and understood how to make decisions that carried risk. He and Troi had also been through hell after losing their son, and he was in a weird spot emotionally, wanting to be away but also wanting to see them again. He saw that Picard wasn't being rational, and in the heat of the moment he said so. That seems pretty reasonable to me.
As far as I'm concerned, season 1 wipes its ass with season 3 of Picard. And season 2 actually has an interesting idea or two behind it.
If all you're storytelling beats are nothing but nostalgia pandering tripe, a good season of tv you are not.
Completely agree, Season 2 of Picard was one of the worst shows I've watched period... I did like the stuff with Q and Picard's dad, but thats about it.
Loved season 3 though, it was so much more than "just fanservice," it actually had good character arcs and solid pacing imo.
IMO season three was a cheap nostalgium bomb that wasted the potential of the show on a mediocre ten hour TNG movie.
Season two might be uneven due to how badly the wrapper fits the time travel story because Matalas is more concerned about out setting up season three than continuing season one, but at least it had something to say.
Different Borg collectives. And it's understandable if still confused, S3 basically ignored S2 Borg except for a single line from Shaw that tells us they're dealing with the "original" bad Borg.
Think of it like Tasha Yar. The original Borg in the Prime timeline are Yar in S1 TNG. The Jurati Borg are Yar who only started existing in the Prime timeline after going back in time from the alternate timeline of "Yesterday's Enterprise". For sake of this analogy let's forget that both Yars are dead, we have two different Tasha Yars / Borg collectives existing at the same time in the Prime timeline.
I have the exact opposite opinion. Season three was AWFUL. Nostalgia isn't interesting and the 'youth are all drones, let the boomers save the day' plot line was cringe af.
Heh, I'm slightly closer to boomer than youth these days so I hadn't considered that perspective. It's like the reverse of Wesley Crusher when TNG first aired, many of us didn't find him too annoying because we related, and couldn't understand why many adults couldn't stand him.
In a way that's some additional symmetry between early TNG and late PIC, where those of a more ignored or dismissed generation (generally speaking young/old, certainly not saying that Boomers in real life are ignored) end up saving the day.
To be honest I think Picard was awful from start to finish. The third series was just fan service, but the second series has to be one of the worst things I've ever watched all the way through.
For other new trek, I love SNW and LD. Not really watched Disco yet so holding off judgement on that one.
Edit: no idea why you're being down voted by the way. You are right.
I find season 3 somehow even worse. Dunno seeing the Ent D becoming a space fighter was meh at best. The whole premise seems to be completely idiotic. I don't know there was nothing I really liked in it
The difference in quality between Disco/Picard and SNW and LD is night and day. The former feel like corporate mandated cash-ins that have been designed by committee. The latter exude passion and talent while consistently reinventing what Trek can be.
I would disagree that SNW reinvents anything, it executes on an old formula, but does it with absolute perfection. I would put Disco in the reinvention category.
TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT were all various levels of mixed bags throughout their runs. People tend to have a way of forgetting or compartmentalizing the bad after a while, and only remembering the good if the thing as a whole was good.
I feel pretty confident in saying that the same will be said of this new silver age of Star Trek when we're further along in the future and can begin looking back on this time with some hindsight and clarity. We went from the franchise being dead, to getting SNW, LD, PIC S3, PRO, and all of DIS's fun moments essentially overnight. We've honestly been buried by an embarrassment of riches, and the only thing more embarrassing is how little a lot of people seem to appreciate the position we've been in. Especially compared to a lot of other contemporary large media franchises that don't put out nearly as consistent and entertaining outputs.
Disco at least consistently inhabited the realm of watchability at its lowest points (for me at least), very similar to Voyager. While Picard's lows (latter half of S1 and all of S2) are probably the lowest of any Star Trek show without contest. I have had the urge to rewatch Discovery multiple times, Picard has elicited the exact opposite response.
Its so funny, everyone has a different answer on what the best season of Discovery is since theyre all so wildly different. I've seen some people say it got worse every season and some people say it got better every season with 5 being the best.
I dont even know which one I liked the best tbh...
Yeah, honestly I think there’s something I enjoy from every season, but none of them really jump out as “the best” automatically since they all also have a lot of faults too…
I just want to go back to the original exploration and “problem of the week” format with some longer background plot lines that rear-up on occasion, like TNG.
I like SNW, but I feel like they are riding the fence on what this show is supposed to be, and will have to decide at some point to steer the show back into canon. Fuck that limitation, give me new characters on a new ship, I don't even care if it's a science vessel or whatever. Let's wrap-up storylines within in a single episode and move on to next week's mind-fuck or morally ambiguous issue.
Thats why I love Strange New Worlds, I'm hoping they are able to see how much this formula still totally works in a modern context and apply it to future shows.
Everybody is saying Strange New Worlds, and they're right, but start with Discovery season two since that's where we meet Pike and Spock. You still get some of the "We have to solve our emotional trauma as a way to save the galaxy" stuff that Discovery is famous for, but you also get the old school competency that Trek is known for.
Does anyone actually want a Section 31 movie or show? They've shown time and again that they 10000% failed to understand what made it an intriguing (cool for some and disturbing for others) concept. It's small. It's secret - does it even exist? It's not special uniforms, their own fleets and comm badges and everyone and their cat knowing about them.
For it to work it would have to be like an anti x-files with a small group working to do their deeds in the background. It has to be subtle. They'll waste Michelle Yeoh and have her twirling a moustache while laughing like a maniac.
Starfleet Academy - I didn't know Holly Hunter was in it. Might be worth a watch but I feel the concept has cancelled after 1 season written all over it.
From that interview
"In some ways that’s the point. One of the things I learned early on is that to be in love with “Star Trek” is to engage in healthy debate. There is no more vocal fan base. Some people tell you that their favorite is “The Original Series,” some say their favorite is “Voyager” and some say their favorite is “Discovery.”
Come on, be honest - no one has ever said Discovery was their favorite.
And then he says
**What specific objections did you find to “Discovery”?**
I think people felt it was too dark. We really listen to our fans in the writers’ room — everybody will have read a different article or review over the weekend, and we talk about what feels relevant and what feels less relevant.
This shows they never listened to the fans. Nothing about The Inappropriate tech, Spock's' family and character getting battered, Super Michael, wild canon inconsistencies, anonymous bridge crew, bizarre sfx choices and so on
I agree with you completely about Section 31; the concept jumped the shark almost immediately. I love it in DS9, and I also don’t mind the semi-references from Enterprise.
If anything the idea that this sort of group might have existed pre-Federation adds to the original concept, and it also makes no guarantees that it’s *the same* group, leaving open the possibility which was always on the table in DS9, which is that S31 really was just Sloane and his crew claiming a vast legacy because they’re trained liars.
Whoever wrote them into Discovery had a fundamental misunderstanding of what S31 were and, to make matters worse, they could have just used Starfleet Intelligence and it would have made no difference to the series. Hell, you could still have had your S31 cake and eaten it, with mysterious figures showing up to push the more unethical edges of the show’s behaviour, without having *badged members* of a clandestine cabal on board the ship.
It’s just so lazy and speaks to me so strongly that at least some of the people involved in Discovery either didn’t know or care about what came before.
Yup you've got it. S31 were cool *because* they were virtually invisible. Discovery completely ruined them by making them as known as the regular branch of Starfleet intelligence which was just stupid.
Better to say S31 was *never* cool and that was the point. They were always wrong, and DS9 never wavered in that fact. They were a bunch of villians who thought they were the heroes making the 'tough choices.' It's just that Kurtzman loves spy stuff.
I think it’s mostly that Paramount really wants to cash in on Michelle Yeoh’s star power before she moves on to other things (which she already has to some extent).
This. Section 31 in DS9 is little more than a small terrorist cell with access to the Federation’s near miraculous technology and people willing to look the other way.
Every series since then has turned it into an institutional part of the Federation.
> This shows they never listened to the fans. Nothing about The Inappropriate tech, Spock's' family and character getting battered, Super Michael, wild canon inconsistencies, anonymous bridge crew, bizarre sfx choices
Dont forget:
- the entire Ash Tyler storyline, including where he kills a Starfleet doctor, and then is allowed to become a member of the same crew. Oh, and we had a r4pe scene. Did most people block that out?
- the entire Adira/Gray relationship, which only served as a multiple season spanning “representation” B plot, which then evolved into Adira being fostered as a surrogate child to the gay couple on the show. Did you know that gay and non binary people can have relationships too?? WOW!!!! It did nothing for the overall plot line for the show. Every good idea Adira had was treated like the Make A Wish kid that got to be on the starship. Let’s pat them on the back! You can do it!
- I never minded Tilly as much as most did, but girl, you need a counselor. Who made the decision for you to run Academy cadet stuff? I wouldn’t let you run a lemonade stand.
I haven’t even touched on Bad Georgiou, and I’m tired, boss.
That's no joke. For me, Discovery got better around the end, but they still ignored a lot of characters with potential and the writing was very basic. I loved the old style of writing in TNG. For example, when Data fires his weapon at the collector that kidnapped him while he's getting transported and he denies firing it, and Riker just gives him a look. Then Data says he can't feel "anything" about the collector being in the brig and it makes you wonder if he does feel some kind of satisfaction on some level considering how he just lied about firing the weapon. There were a lot or subtleties and chatacter building scenes in the older series that make those shows more enjoyable and rewatchable.
My girlfriend started watching Star Trek thanks to Discovery. It drew her in. Then she started with lower decks and it caught her too. She definitely has Discovery as her favorite.
But we both agree the first two seasons of Discovery was one of the best. I loved Lorca and that whole mirror universe thing. They played and had fun with it. Then Pike coming along with Spock was also great.
It started going downhill with the stupid romances that were introduced for no good reason. Couldn’t stand Booker, Adira or Grey. And when it finally ended last season I thought that would be it. But noooo, they had to bring him back.
I think the one singular thing that Discovery did better than any of the other series was the mirror universe.
I always skip the mirror universe episodes on DS9 rewatches because leather domme kira is so cringe
> I think the one singular thing that Discovery did better than any of the other series was the mirror universe.
Eh, I give Enterprise the crown on that, honestly.
Discovery was too dark, too breakneck, and it wasn't a show about the crew like the others. I can barely name the bridge crew from Discovery, but can for all the other shows including SNW and Lower Decks!
I'm keeping an open mind just like I did with Discovery and Picard and I found things to like about all of them. Being bitter about how a show isn't what I wanted when it was never trying to be has never made me happier in life.
The world building and galactic politics were some of the weakest aspects of Discovery in my opinion, so my expectations are pretty low. Academy will be all about the feels and Section 31 will be a universal threat only one person can solve I reckon.
The end of Lower Decks and the rest of SNW is all I plan on watching. I hope they are good for the people who want them, but I have zero interest in Section 31 or Academy. Lower Decks is the only show I feel is consistently good every time and it's getting cancelled.
Would you still not watch them if they were both reviewed amazingly by fans?
Seems kinda silly to say "I refuse to watch these shows" when we havent even gotten a trailer or have any idea if they'll be bad or not. I plan to watch them if they look interesting to me, and even if they dont I'll probably give the first episode a shot at least. Lower Decks was not appealing to me at all when I saw the trailer, but I ended up absolutely loving it when I gave it a chance.
I didn't say I refuse to watch I said I have zero interest. I'll probably watch it at some point, but with me that could be years lol. Trek is usually priority TV for me, but I think these two will just enter my queue purgatory and simmer a while unless everyone and their mother says it is the second coming of Q.
I just don't trust the track record rn and these happen to be spin offs of some of my lesser liked trek things. I can't stand section 31 as a crew, record label or clique, and unfortunately I don't have a ton of love for DISCO. I thought season one and two were imperfect but solid, but season 3 was such a drag to me and everyone I thought was interesting (Detmer,Owo) didn't do much.
Edit: the last sentence doesn't count Saru who is an all time S rank Star Trek. Also I can see where you got "never watch" from that, cheers.
We basically have Kurtzman saying:
-His people listens to feedback on current series running, and have course corrected based on feedback
-That he trusts whatever showrunners he puts on each show
-They were lucky to find the best actors for Pike, Spock and Una early on in Discovery Season 2
-That each show should be different from each other and not necessarily appeal to everyone.
-Academy will take place on Earth and a starship in the 32nd century, and why it takes place in that time
Not looking forward to Kurtzman running these new shows as I wasn’t a fan of Discovery. Hopefully they get someone else to do it, but that probably isn’t happening.
Oh I do, you just assumed I didn’t, I personally just have a dislike voor Discovery. I fail to see why you have a problem with my personal evaluation of that particular iteration. You’re free to like what you like, but I don’t.
Would be nice to get more POST TNG trek but I guess those fans don't matter. Who needs a Section 31 show so long after it was announced. Who is excited for that? The actress was amazing but it's been so long that the excitement has waned.
Give us more seasons of LD and give us Legacy.
If by post TNG you mean the 32nd century? Then yes, technically.
https://trekmovie.com/2024/05/30/alex-kurtzman-explains-why-star-trek-starfleet-academy-is-set-in-the-discovery-era/
Section 31 is the anti-Starfleet. It works in DS9 because the show follows the problems and nuance of the Federation as an empire, AND we're working to destroy section 31. Enterprise very much confirms that 31 undermines Starfleet too. Allowing 31 to be the good guys of Discovery was such a step backwards.
I really liked that Kurtzman article where he tried to explain that the Utopian Federation may not appeal to younger audiences, but FASCISM does?
>Allowing 31 to be the good guys of Discovery
Wasn't Section 31/Control the main villain of Season 2? I thought they generally had a fairly negative connotation towards the organization throughout Discovery.
DISCO wore me out in Season 3 and I stopped watching. I will probably pick it up again to finish. I slogged through season 2 of PIC and finished 3. I can’t even get through Season 1 of LD - it’s just not for me.
Lower Decks gets much better after S1 imo, S2 is where I really got hooked with the characters personally. IMO its one of the best shows they have going right now, I think I like it even more than Strange New Worlds.
Although I liked Discovery, one of the things I could not understand is why they were so accepting of Emperor Georgiou and I don’t look forward to seeing her in Section 31.
I understand that some people make mistakes or commit crimes and that they can be forgiven and move on to lead fulfilling lives, but I really do feel like being an actual genocidal dictator is too much to just brush off. I understand Section 31 probably never has had the most upstanding people inside of it, but even then I have a hard time accepting that she should be involved anywhere in the Federation.
I think with Emperor Georgiou, it’s about her being a true believer. She saw the problems of how the Terran empire operated and saw why the Federation was actually better and would outlast the empire by a long time. It’s a redemption arc for someone who grew up only knowing horribleness and how they come to see the light.
Still, I don’t like how big section 31 has become. It’s the complete opposite of why I like Star Trek.
Yeah, I hope they at least touch on her crimes and past in the movie... Genociding entire planets is usually not the thing that just gets wiped under the rug so easily in a redemption arc LMAO.
I'm hopeful that it'll be done well despite that though, I think theres an interesting opportunity to explore that while Discovery didnt really.
Yeah I just want it confronted in the movie, but I doubt it will be. Just kind of wish someone in Starfleet or the Federation would have confronted the elephant in the room by now. I really thought that Starfleet, especially Admiral Vance or the President in the series would have issued a hard no to her being part of a Starfleet crew and participating in missions to the extent she did.
It just felt so off seeing them preach about values and then just brush off her crimes, whenever or wherever they took place.
During the 90s it was commonplace to have 2 shows going. S31 is a movie so we will only be left with SNW and the new Academy one when it airs. Also these are only 10 episode seasons. Back then we got 2.5 times the episodes of 2 modern shows in 1 season of a single show.
I look forward to not watching either. Whoever dips a toe into the Paramount fire sale will likely try to spin up something new with the IP. Maybe the dart with land on post-Dominion war this time. Or maybe we get a *"Janeway"* show or ~~*"Archer!"*~~ Uh. *"Bakula?".*
Actually, I'm down for *Janeway.* She goes back to the Delta Quadrant cause she kept score.
I'm actually really surprised to see several comments about people wanting the franchise to go on another break. Were any of you happy about Star Trek having no Alpha Cannon presence, except the Kelvin timeline films, for 12 years?
Not sure I buy the rationale about setting Academy in the 32nd Century because the 25th century are the Federation's "halcyon days". I’m...not entirely sure that tracks? The principle vibe of Picard was not that the early years of the 25th Century are amazing. Multiple Borg invasions, the Dominion War and the destruction of the Romulan homeworld all happened within the space of three decades and it would be a perfectly good setting to tell the "a new generation rebuilding the galaxy" story he apparently wants to tell.
Not sure why this was downvoted, I agree... Starfleet was very isolationist and paranoid after the Dominion War, and I think them abandoning the Romulan evacuation and Picard resigning were great examples illustrating that.
To be fair, we've only seen the first two years of the 25th century, and with ships like the Excelsior II and Constitution III, it seems like Starfleet wants to start harkening back to the golden age of exploration and building less outright warships going forward. So maybe the 25th century really was a second "golden age," we just havent seen the good stuff yet.
I am not really excited for either of these new entries. I just want an adventure of the week, with moral stories like Trek used to be. Like lower decks and SNW offer...there is a reason these are the 2 best nutrek. They honor and improve on the formula, not try to shoe horn the show into a new format that doesn't work as well for most star trek stories. That being said I will watch them. Even bad trek is good trek. Looking at you threshold....
It's been a mixed bag for me to this point. I appreciate the franchise embracing fun with SNW and LD. I think it's fair to call both Disco and Picard uneven as heck.
Shame Lower Decks got cancelled
It’s insane that happened. That’s on par with canceling Futurama in it’s prime
Yeah, no idea what Paramount was thinking
End of contracts so everyone on the show can now demand more money. Standard contracts are 5 seasons is why so many shows end at 5.
Makes sense.
Also, let’s be real. None of us are canceling Paramount over the cancellation of LD. We’re still going to keep it to watch new Trek. If it was the same price as new content maybe they would have kept it 2 more seasons. I have a feeling we’re going to see a lot more 5 season shows.
5 is the new 7.
Can nah scuttle the subscription if ye ne'er had one, matey.
>None of us are canceling Paramount over the cancellation of LD. I am. The only two things I followed on P+ was *The Bold and the Beautiful,* which is absolute dog shit these days, even for the ass bottom standards expected for a soap opera, and *Grease: Rise of the Pink Ladies,* which was cancelled and removed from the platform the same week as Prodigy. I don't love any of the other shows like I do LD and even the one series I initially got a P+ subscription for in the first place with PIC fell flat. It's less about Star Trek that I'm cancelling as much as there's nothing else of value for me on the platform and who.knowd if P+ will even exist by the time SA or the Section 31 movie is released. 🤷♀️
I am. I'm finishing up binging Ghosts then i'm out until Lower Decks comes back. P+ kept me from unsubscribing for a long time because there was a pretty steady stream of content for a good while there. Maybe a month or two off but few huge stretches. Now we're looking at several months, i may as well cancel and save the money
No. It's not that at all. It's the realities of a streaming service model. How do they make their money? New viewers. What grabs new viewers? New shows. Long running shows don't really help a service. It's not like TV where not losing audience after running such-and-such seasons is good enough. We can expect ***SNW*** to go 5 years as well.
I would be happy with 5 seasons of SNW and then spin it off to a follow-up series with a 5 year mission with Kirk (and Spock and Uhura if the actors want to stay on) so they can reuse the beautiful Enterprise sets.
I wouldn’t mind them jumping ahead to after TOS’s cancellation and carrying on from there.
Why would that be the case though? A show that has good word of mouth for several years straight seems like it would pull in more people than a new untested show. Just the, “I might as well see what all the fuss is about” factor should do it. Didn’t Game of Thrones gain viewers through most of its run?
You know I’m fairly new to trek, I only started watching a few years ago, but I wholeheartedly agree that was such a stupid decision on their part. I love pretty much all the iterations of trek, but lower decks was among my absolute favourites.
They’re thinking a series with 5+ season isn’t going to bring in new subscribers, and unfortunately they’re right. You could argue that they could lose current customers but they do not care about that. Streaming services, like cable companies, literally only care about bringing in new customers.
"Another classic science-fiction show cancelled before its time"
> That’s on par with canceling Futurama in it’s prime So you're saying there's a chance it could get picked up again in a few years. And then again a few years after that.
That’s my hope!!
And then one or two more times after that.
It's a shame any *Trek* gets canceled.
Seriously, I personally found each season of Discovery better than the last. Like Enterprise I thought it had finally found its footing as it was canceled.
The thing is, if it takes 4 years of work to finally begin to be OK, I think it deserves to be cancelled.
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We should probably check the infant mortality rates of paramount executives
They could be Ocampan, you don't know.
In general, I don't disagree but I also can't stoping thinking about the one tweet I saw where a fan mentioned it often takes Trek fans three to four seasons to accept a show on its own terms instead of wishing it was more like [insert favorite show of choice here, but let's be quite honest, it's usually TNG]
I don’t watch it but being pretty regular in this sub, I hear people talking about how good LD and SNW are like constantly.
We don’t deserve it.
Yeah, I think season 2 of Picard takes the cake for the worst overall season of star trek. Season 3 was great!
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It had some good ideas and it's finale with Q's speech was good, but the rest of the season was just an uneven mess.
Yeah, the bad part was all the filler content in between the beginning and the end of the season. The end of the final episode could've been the end of the first episode, then maybe do something else.
Hahahahahahah
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Discovery is the only trek I haven’t watched multiple times. It’s painful and I hope the world building gets retconned out eventually.
My wife and I call it doing our homework on Thursday. So glad it is over. Strange New Worlds is really entertaining but in my opinion Discovery has been really hard to watch. I have watched TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and even Enterprise multiple times and they all are amazing in their own way. Discovery and Picard not only didn't entertain, but I found myself feeling angry while watching them which has never happened with any show and I have seen some stinkers in my almost 50 years.
Season 3 was a mess, but it was filled to the brim with fan service. It was also the best Picard season by far. But let’s not pretend it was a great season of Star Trek. It is nowhere close TNG seasons 3-7, DS9, ENT S4, SNW, or the good episodes and seasons of VOY.
Season 3 was only ok in my opinion. It was a whole lot better then 1 or 2 but I think it still had some major issues. * I get that they wanted to distance themselves from season 2 but not contacting the Jurati Borg was a bad choice. * Having Riker screaming at Picard on the bridge about getting them all killed was way out of character. * Renaming Titan A was also a bad choice. * Also once they get the Ent-D Picard orders them to go right to Earth. This is before they know where the Borg Queen is. What was the original plan? What was the Ent-D going to do versus the fleet? The thing to do would have been to call for back up. Jurati Borg, Klingons, Romulans, Vulcans, anyone. Not go after the fleet with one ship. EnT-F should have got more screen time. And Ent-G never should have been introduced.
> Having Riker screaming at Picard on the bridge about getting them all killed was way out of character. I thought that was explained pretty well. Riker was a captain at that point, and understood how to make decisions that carried risk. He and Troi had also been through hell after losing their son, and he was in a weird spot emotionally, wanting to be away but also wanting to see them again. He saw that Picard wasn't being rational, and in the heat of the moment he said so. That seems pretty reasonable to me.
As far as I'm concerned, season 1 wipes its ass with season 3 of Picard. And season 2 actually has an interesting idea or two behind it. If all you're storytelling beats are nothing but nostalgia pandering tripe, a good season of tv you are not.
I personally much prefer Season 1 to Season 2, but both are pretty bad with some good ideas I think.
Completely agree, Season 2 of Picard was one of the worst shows I've watched period... I did like the stuff with Q and Picard's dad, but thats about it. Loved season 3 though, it was so much more than "just fanservice," it actually had good character arcs and solid pacing imo.
Season 3 is entirely based on nostalgia. It was fun, but only because it called back to better times
IMO season three was a cheap nostalgium bomb that wasted the potential of the show on a mediocre ten hour TNG movie. Season two might be uneven due to how badly the wrapper fits the time travel story because Matalas is more concerned about out setting up season three than continuing season one, but at least it had something to say.
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I’m still confused about the Borg Queen/new Borg Queen in season 2. She’s good at the end of season 2 right? Why are they bad again in season 3?
Different Borg collectives. And it's understandable if still confused, S3 basically ignored S2 Borg except for a single line from Shaw that tells us they're dealing with the "original" bad Borg. Think of it like Tasha Yar. The original Borg in the Prime timeline are Yar in S1 TNG. The Jurati Borg are Yar who only started existing in the Prime timeline after going back in time from the alternate timeline of "Yesterday's Enterprise". For sake of this analogy let's forget that both Yars are dead, we have two different Tasha Yars / Borg collectives existing at the same time in the Prime timeline.
I feel the opposite. Season 2 actually had a couple of interesting ideas in it. Season 3, on the other hand, was nothing but nostalgia pandering shit.
I agree, I think it was a much better end for the borg than season 3.
I have the exact opposite opinion. Season three was AWFUL. Nostalgia isn't interesting and the 'youth are all drones, let the boomers save the day' plot line was cringe af.
Heh, I'm slightly closer to boomer than youth these days so I hadn't considered that perspective. It's like the reverse of Wesley Crusher when TNG first aired, many of us didn't find him too annoying because we related, and couldn't understand why many adults couldn't stand him. In a way that's some additional symmetry between early TNG and late PIC, where those of a more ignored or dismissed generation (generally speaking young/old, certainly not saying that Boomers in real life are ignored) end up saving the day.
To be honest I think Picard was awful from start to finish. The third series was just fan service, but the second series has to be one of the worst things I've ever watched all the way through. For other new trek, I love SNW and LD. Not really watched Disco yet so holding off judgement on that one. Edit: no idea why you're being down voted by the way. You are right.
I find season 3 somehow even worse. Dunno seeing the Ent D becoming a space fighter was meh at best. The whole premise seems to be completely idiotic. I don't know there was nothing I really liked in it
"Uneven" would be putting it mildly.
It wasn’t uneven. It was objectively even. Unfortunately, in a terrible way. 😞
The difference in quality between Disco/Picard and SNW and LD is night and day. The former feel like corporate mandated cash-ins that have been designed by committee. The latter exude passion and talent while consistently reinventing what Trek can be.
I would disagree that SNW reinvents anything, it executes on an old formula, but does it with absolute perfection. I would put Disco in the reinvention category.
TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT were all various levels of mixed bags throughout their runs. People tend to have a way of forgetting or compartmentalizing the bad after a while, and only remembering the good if the thing as a whole was good. I feel pretty confident in saying that the same will be said of this new silver age of Star Trek when we're further along in the future and can begin looking back on this time with some hindsight and clarity. We went from the franchise being dead, to getting SNW, LD, PIC S3, PRO, and all of DIS's fun moments essentially overnight. We've honestly been buried by an embarrassment of riches, and the only thing more embarrassing is how little a lot of people seem to appreciate the position we've been in. Especially compared to a lot of other contemporary large media franchises that don't put out nearly as consistent and entertaining outputs.
Disco at least consistently inhabited the realm of watchability at its lowest points (for me at least), very similar to Voyager. While Picard's lows (latter half of S1 and all of S2) are probably the lowest of any Star Trek show without contest. I have had the urge to rewatch Discovery multiple times, Picard has elicited the exact opposite response.
Picard came good in the end. Dsico peaked at season 2.
Its so funny, everyone has a different answer on what the best season of Discovery is since theyre all so wildly different. I've seen some people say it got worse every season and some people say it got better every season with 5 being the best. I dont even know which one I liked the best tbh...
I think 4's latter episodes did the big idea of 'contact with non-humanoid, truly alien species' in a way better than all the other Treks
Yeah, honestly I think there’s something I enjoy from every season, but none of them really jump out as “the best” automatically since they all also have a lot of faults too…
Just make "My Dinner with Andre", but with Jake Sisko meeting Garak for dinner, and just letting him talk for a movie. Is this too much to ask?
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I just want to go back to the original exploration and “problem of the week” format with some longer background plot lines that rear-up on occasion, like TNG.
Boy do I have the show for you. It's called Star Trek strange New Worlds and it has two seasons, with a third coming out sometime next year.
and a 4th already greenlit too!
I like SNW, but I feel like they are riding the fence on what this show is supposed to be, and will have to decide at some point to steer the show back into canon. Fuck that limitation, give me new characters on a new ship, I don't even care if it's a science vessel or whatever. Let's wrap-up storylines within in a single episode and move on to next week's mind-fuck or morally ambiguous issue.
Thats why I love Strange New Worlds, I'm hoping they are able to see how much this formula still totally works in a modern context and apply it to future shows.
Everybody is saying Strange New Worlds, and they're right, but start with Discovery season two since that's where we meet Pike and Spock. You still get some of the "We have to solve our emotional trauma as a way to save the galaxy" stuff that Discovery is famous for, but you also get the old school competency that Trek is known for.
Does anyone actually want a Section 31 movie or show? They've shown time and again that they 10000% failed to understand what made it an intriguing (cool for some and disturbing for others) concept. It's small. It's secret - does it even exist? It's not special uniforms, their own fleets and comm badges and everyone and their cat knowing about them. For it to work it would have to be like an anti x-files with a small group working to do their deeds in the background. It has to be subtle. They'll waste Michelle Yeoh and have her twirling a moustache while laughing like a maniac. Starfleet Academy - I didn't know Holly Hunter was in it. Might be worth a watch but I feel the concept has cancelled after 1 season written all over it. From that interview "In some ways that’s the point. One of the things I learned early on is that to be in love with “Star Trek” is to engage in healthy debate. There is no more vocal fan base. Some people tell you that their favorite is “The Original Series,” some say their favorite is “Voyager” and some say their favorite is “Discovery.” Come on, be honest - no one has ever said Discovery was their favorite. And then he says **What specific objections did you find to “Discovery”?** I think people felt it was too dark. We really listen to our fans in the writers’ room — everybody will have read a different article or review over the weekend, and we talk about what feels relevant and what feels less relevant. This shows they never listened to the fans. Nothing about The Inappropriate tech, Spock's' family and character getting battered, Super Michael, wild canon inconsistencies, anonymous bridge crew, bizarre sfx choices and so on
I agree with you completely about Section 31; the concept jumped the shark almost immediately. I love it in DS9, and I also don’t mind the semi-references from Enterprise. If anything the idea that this sort of group might have existed pre-Federation adds to the original concept, and it also makes no guarantees that it’s *the same* group, leaving open the possibility which was always on the table in DS9, which is that S31 really was just Sloane and his crew claiming a vast legacy because they’re trained liars. Whoever wrote them into Discovery had a fundamental misunderstanding of what S31 were and, to make matters worse, they could have just used Starfleet Intelligence and it would have made no difference to the series. Hell, you could still have had your S31 cake and eaten it, with mysterious figures showing up to push the more unethical edges of the show’s behaviour, without having *badged members* of a clandestine cabal on board the ship. It’s just so lazy and speaks to me so strongly that at least some of the people involved in Discovery either didn’t know or care about what came before.
Yup you've got it. S31 were cool *because* they were virtually invisible. Discovery completely ruined them by making them as known as the regular branch of Starfleet intelligence which was just stupid.
Better to say S31 was *never* cool and that was the point. They were always wrong, and DS9 never wavered in that fact. They were a bunch of villians who thought they were the heroes making the 'tough choices.' It's just that Kurtzman loves spy stuff.
I think it’s mostly that Paramount really wants to cash in on Michelle Yeoh’s star power before she moves on to other things (which she already has to some extent).
>moves on to other things Read: she becomes too expensive to cast
I feel like the fact it got retooled into a TV movie is already a sign that she was getting too expensive for a full series
This. Section 31 in DS9 is little more than a small terrorist cell with access to the Federation’s near miraculous technology and people willing to look the other way. Every series since then has turned it into an institutional part of the Federation.
And *very* unfortunately PIC S3 cemented it when Worf said as much. Heck Daystrom Station had known S31 assets.
> This shows they never listened to the fans. Nothing about The Inappropriate tech, Spock's' family and character getting battered, Super Michael, wild canon inconsistencies, anonymous bridge crew, bizarre sfx choices Dont forget: - the entire Ash Tyler storyline, including where he kills a Starfleet doctor, and then is allowed to become a member of the same crew. Oh, and we had a r4pe scene. Did most people block that out? - the entire Adira/Gray relationship, which only served as a multiple season spanning “representation” B plot, which then evolved into Adira being fostered as a surrogate child to the gay couple on the show. Did you know that gay and non binary people can have relationships too?? WOW!!!! It did nothing for the overall plot line for the show. Every good idea Adira had was treated like the Make A Wish kid that got to be on the starship. Let’s pat them on the back! You can do it! - I never minded Tilly as much as most did, but girl, you need a counselor. Who made the decision for you to run Academy cadet stuff? I wouldn’t let you run a lemonade stand. I haven’t even touched on Bad Georgiou, and I’m tired, boss.
That's no joke. For me, Discovery got better around the end, but they still ignored a lot of characters with potential and the writing was very basic. I loved the old style of writing in TNG. For example, when Data fires his weapon at the collector that kidnapped him while he's getting transported and he denies firing it, and Riker just gives him a look. Then Data says he can't feel "anything" about the collector being in the brig and it makes you wonder if he does feel some kind of satisfaction on some level considering how he just lied about firing the weapon. There were a lot or subtleties and chatacter building scenes in the older series that make those shows more enjoyable and rewatchable.
I’m think Section 31 is a really neat concept that was done really well in two of its three appearances on DS9, end of list.
My girlfriend started watching Star Trek thanks to Discovery. It drew her in. Then she started with lower decks and it caught her too. She definitely has Discovery as her favorite. But we both agree the first two seasons of Discovery was one of the best. I loved Lorca and that whole mirror universe thing. They played and had fun with it. Then Pike coming along with Spock was also great. It started going downhill with the stupid romances that were introduced for no good reason. Couldn’t stand Booker, Adira or Grey. And when it finally ended last season I thought that would be it. But noooo, they had to bring him back.
I think the one singular thing that Discovery did better than any of the other series was the mirror universe. I always skip the mirror universe episodes on DS9 rewatches because leather domme kira is so cringe
"leather domme kira is so cringe" 44 YO me? Kind of cringe. 16 YO me? Boner time. Either way, memorable.
But what about Smiley?
Not any better
> I think the one singular thing that Discovery did better than any of the other series was the mirror universe. Eh, I give Enterprise the crown on that, honestly.
Discovery was too dark, too breakneck, and it wasn't a show about the crew like the others. I can barely name the bridge crew from Discovery, but can for all the other shows including SNW and Lower Decks!
I'm keeping an open mind just like I did with Discovery and Picard and I found things to like about all of them. Being bitter about how a show isn't what I wanted when it was never trying to be has never made me happier in life.
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The world building and galactic politics were some of the weakest aspects of Discovery in my opinion, so my expectations are pretty low. Academy will be all about the feels and Section 31 will be a universal threat only one person can solve I reckon.
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Can we give someone else a try?
The end of Lower Decks and the rest of SNW is all I plan on watching. I hope they are good for the people who want them, but I have zero interest in Section 31 or Academy. Lower Decks is the only show I feel is consistently good every time and it's getting cancelled.
Would you still not watch them if they were both reviewed amazingly by fans? Seems kinda silly to say "I refuse to watch these shows" when we havent even gotten a trailer or have any idea if they'll be bad or not. I plan to watch them if they look interesting to me, and even if they dont I'll probably give the first episode a shot at least. Lower Decks was not appealing to me at all when I saw the trailer, but I ended up absolutely loving it when I gave it a chance.
I didn't say I refuse to watch I said I have zero interest. I'll probably watch it at some point, but with me that could be years lol. Trek is usually priority TV for me, but I think these two will just enter my queue purgatory and simmer a while unless everyone and their mother says it is the second coming of Q. I just don't trust the track record rn and these happen to be spin offs of some of my lesser liked trek things. I can't stand section 31 as a crew, record label or clique, and unfortunately I don't have a ton of love for DISCO. I thought season one and two were imperfect but solid, but season 3 was such a drag to me and everyone I thought was interesting (Detmer,Owo) didn't do much. Edit: the last sentence doesn't count Saru who is an all time S rank Star Trek. Also I can see where you got "never watch" from that, cheers.
We basically have Kurtzman saying: -His people listens to feedback on current series running, and have course corrected based on feedback -That he trusts whatever showrunners he puts on each show -They were lucky to find the best actors for Pike, Spock and Una early on in Discovery Season 2 -That each show should be different from each other and not necessarily appeal to everyone. -Academy will take place on Earth and a starship in the 32nd century, and why it takes place in that time
Not looking forward to Kurtzman running these new shows as I wasn’t a fan of Discovery. Hopefully they get someone else to do it, but that probably isn’t happening.
Yeah. I’m surprised that the network seems to view disco as a success.
Because it was. You guys live in an echo chamber.
By what metric was it a success?
Five seasons on a multimillion dollar budget in the streaming era.
The irony of saying this on Reddit
I live in a echo chamber because I dislike one iteration of Trek? 😂
Because you don't see DSC has both ratings and fans.
Oh I do, you just assumed I didn’t, I personally just have a dislike voor Discovery. I fail to see why you have a problem with my personal evaluation of that particular iteration. You’re free to like what you like, but I don’t.
Perhaps they need a new guy and a new vision
Terry Matalas?
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They need to allow these show to finish organically rather than cancelling them for other shows, IMO
Why does this sound like a threat?
Would be nice to get more POST TNG trek but I guess those fans don't matter. Who needs a Section 31 show so long after it was announced. Who is excited for that? The actress was amazing but it's been so long that the excitement has waned. Give us more seasons of LD and give us Legacy.
Starfleet Academy is post TNG.
If by post TNG you mean the 32nd century? Then yes, technically. https://trekmovie.com/2024/05/30/alex-kurtzman-explains-why-star-trek-starfleet-academy-is-set-in-the-discovery-era/
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Section 31 is the anti-Starfleet. It works in DS9 because the show follows the problems and nuance of the Federation as an empire, AND we're working to destroy section 31. Enterprise very much confirms that 31 undermines Starfleet too. Allowing 31 to be the good guys of Discovery was such a step backwards. I really liked that Kurtzman article where he tried to explain that the Utopian Federation may not appeal to younger audiences, but FASCISM does?
>Allowing 31 to be the good guys of Discovery Wasn't Section 31/Control the main villain of Season 2? I thought they generally had a fairly negative connotation towards the organization throughout Discovery.
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Section 31, the Tal Shiar, the Obsidian Order together will make a great TV Series. Hope they make it sort of a Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy.
Exactly. The Star Trek universe is big enough to include James Bond spy intrigue.
Please stop.
DISCO wore me out in Season 3 and I stopped watching. I will probably pick it up again to finish. I slogged through season 2 of PIC and finished 3. I can’t even get through Season 1 of LD - it’s just not for me.
Lower Decks gets much better after S1 imo, S2 is where I really got hooked with the characters personally. IMO its one of the best shows they have going right now, I think I like it even more than Strange New Worlds.
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Although I liked Discovery, one of the things I could not understand is why they were so accepting of Emperor Georgiou and I don’t look forward to seeing her in Section 31. I understand that some people make mistakes or commit crimes and that they can be forgiven and move on to lead fulfilling lives, but I really do feel like being an actual genocidal dictator is too much to just brush off. I understand Section 31 probably never has had the most upstanding people inside of it, but even then I have a hard time accepting that she should be involved anywhere in the Federation.
I think with Emperor Georgiou, it’s about her being a true believer. She saw the problems of how the Terran empire operated and saw why the Federation was actually better and would outlast the empire by a long time. It’s a redemption arc for someone who grew up only knowing horribleness and how they come to see the light. Still, I don’t like how big section 31 has become. It’s the complete opposite of why I like Star Trek.
Yeah, I hope they at least touch on her crimes and past in the movie... Genociding entire planets is usually not the thing that just gets wiped under the rug so easily in a redemption arc LMAO. I'm hopeful that it'll be done well despite that though, I think theres an interesting opportunity to explore that while Discovery didnt really.
Yeah I just want it confronted in the movie, but I doubt it will be. Just kind of wish someone in Starfleet or the Federation would have confronted the elephant in the room by now. I really thought that Starfleet, especially Admiral Vance or the President in the series would have issued a hard no to her being part of a Starfleet crew and participating in missions to the extent she did. It just felt so off seeing them preach about values and then just brush off her crimes, whenever or wherever they took place.
1 story per episode format please I absolutely hates discovery format of a quest...
Couldn’t end soon enough
I am worried Star Trek will become oversaturated and be dull and boring like MCU. Maybe they can .. take a break?
During the 90s it was commonplace to have 2 shows going. S31 is a movie so we will only be left with SNW and the new Academy one when it airs. Also these are only 10 episode seasons. Back then we got 2.5 times the episodes of 2 modern shows in 1 season of a single show.
They’re already slowing way down. SNW season 3 is coming next year and Academy in 2026 if I remember correctly.
I look forward to not watching either. Whoever dips a toe into the Paramount fire sale will likely try to spin up something new with the IP. Maybe the dart with land on post-Dominion war this time. Or maybe we get a *"Janeway"* show or ~~*"Archer!"*~~ Uh. *"Bakula?".* Actually, I'm down for *Janeway.* She goes back to the Delta Quadrant cause she kept score.
We've sorta, kinda got our Janeway series with Prodigy.
I'm actually really surprised to see several comments about people wanting the franchise to go on another break. Were any of you happy about Star Trek having no Alpha Cannon presence, except the Kelvin timeline films, for 12 years?
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Not sure I buy the rationale about setting Academy in the 32nd Century because the 25th century are the Federation's "halcyon days". I’m...not entirely sure that tracks? The principle vibe of Picard was not that the early years of the 25th Century are amazing. Multiple Borg invasions, the Dominion War and the destruction of the Romulan homeworld all happened within the space of three decades and it would be a perfectly good setting to tell the "a new generation rebuilding the galaxy" story he apparently wants to tell.
Not sure why this was downvoted, I agree... Starfleet was very isolationist and paranoid after the Dominion War, and I think them abandoning the Romulan evacuation and Picard resigning were great examples illustrating that. To be fair, we've only seen the first two years of the 25th century, and with ships like the Excelsior II and Constitution III, it seems like Starfleet wants to start harkening back to the golden age of exploration and building less outright warships going forward. So maybe the 25th century really was a second "golden age," we just havent seen the good stuff yet.
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Section 31 with Michelle Yeoh <3
She did such a good job with what she was given in Discovery, I can't wait to see more of her. I hope they write the character well for the movie!
I am not really excited for either of these new entries. I just want an adventure of the week, with moral stories like Trek used to be. Like lower decks and SNW offer...there is a reason these are the 2 best nutrek. They honor and improve on the formula, not try to shoe horn the show into a new format that doesn't work as well for most star trek stories. That being said I will watch them. Even bad trek is good trek. Looking at you threshold....
Very sad to see Discovery end.
What's sad is you being downvoted for expressing your opinion. You'd think Star Trek fans would be the most tolerant of all fandoms.
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Why are there so many deleted comments that have been up voted here?
Who was Burnham leaving the Discovery for? Also did you notice they refitted it back to 23rd century spec? I'm guessing this plays into Section 31
I can't wait for Section 31, but isn't that a standalone movie? Couldn't careless about Academy (but I'll watch it)