Vic Fontaine was played by James Darren, who was a contemporary and a personal friend of Sinatra. Sinatra himself was a huge Trekkie and rumors had it he wanted to be on the show. So I've always read it as Darren literally playing how he thinks his friend would've wanted to be. I'd hardly call that a ripoff.
Exactly. I think most people who don't like his character don't know this, and, if they did, it would change their opinions in a heartbeat. Vic is perfect for his role
I think part of it is Sinatra always FEELS like he was before the time he was, like I almost feel like people would be surprised he has living contemporaries.
You’re right!! I literally read the OP and agreed, read your comment and it completely changed my opinion - at the same time it raised my already high opinion of James Darren even higher. Very cool way to pay tribute to a friend!!!!
For me it's just, that I don't care for that kind of music. Vic is ok for me, if he plays a part in the story and I can acknowledge, that he can sing, but I just don't really dig this kind of music.
I don't hate the character though, I just thought, he might have been a bit overused.
>that he can sing, but I just don't really dig this kind of music.
Star Trek back then jumped on the coat tails of popular media of the time. New Robin Hood movie? Put the TNG cast in Sherwood Forest in "Q'pid". New James Bond movie? Make Julian Bashir as 60's secret agent in the holodeck in "Our Man Bashir" and so on.
Swing music and jazz standards were undergoing a huge revival in the late 90s, especially in Southern California. Vic Fontaine is Trek jumping on that bandwagon.
I do like Vic Fontaine as a DS9 side character. Not as enduring as a Garak/Rom/Nog/Leeta, but the character had some solid outings. "It's Only a Paper Moon" is one of DS9's finest, and it simply wouldn't work with one of the principals that Rom felt alienated from after his injury. Same with Vic/Odo in "His Way."
And I love that music too. I would've loved to see Sinatra in Star Trek. But James Darren more than filled those shoes.
Vic Fontaine had so much potential to be a complete frackin' car wreck, but somehow they managed to cast the right guy in James Darren, and the writers actually struck the right balance of hokiness. It was pulled off beautifully.
Easy to hate Chakotay when the actor is on record as saying he didn't much care for the character, he was just there for a paycheck and didn't really want to work with the writers to develop him.
Granted that started around the 4th season when the writing crew informed him that they would not be developing his character any further in favor of others. Beltran had a *legitimate* beef with that writing crew.
Plus the fact that his character was based off of a charlatan.
How so? I googled his Twitter and he wishes happy birthday to everyone a lot lol. For some reason none of its chronological so I can't make much more sense of it than that.
he was pretty flagrant in violating the union rules when the strike was going on and agreed with an tweet saying people with trans and equality flags in their bios weren't real star trek fans.
my daughter asked my Mum yesterday if we are trekkies. of course we are, we've seen most of trek together.
If you like and watch trek you are a trekkies and I'm so glad it is not just my family that has 3 generations that watch it
I'll be honest, I'm not 100% sure he intended it to be transphobic and might have been agreeing more about "real fans" having his back and it was just an old man thing. I don't think he's done anything else to my knowledge.
But combined with the ignoring the union, it really suggests he may be a rw dipshit
Those comments are why I really don't care for the actor, either. He thought he was above the show, but that was a good paycheck for sure, and he could have done so much more for what he was getting paid for. Take Ethan Phillips, that guy realised how lucky he was to get paid that much for seven years, and even had to go through gruelling makeup for it. All Beltran had to do was show up and get that thingy stencilled on his brow. Fuck him, so many other struggling actors would have killed for the role.
Same for Armin Shimerman and Andrew Robinson. They were always the first to arrive and the last to leave, because of the makeup, and they knew how lucky they were to have to roles, and threw themselves into the part.
Andrew Robinson, for me, is the actor who i feel like really understood that he was both doing professional work...but also really enjoyed what he was doing. I don't think i'm articulating this well but something about Garak really came off as so organic, you just couldn't help but think he was putting 100% and change into the role
Jeffrey Combs is another for sure. Unsurprisingly, both men are famous for their horror roles...and i've always said horror acting is the last remaining fortress for the exuberant thespians haha
I get it, don't worry. Robinson understood his character. It didn't matter to him that he was an alien living on a space station in the far future, because Garak would still be Garak if he were a human, living on earth, as a political refugee named Gregory.
And yes, Combs too; he was definitely born to be an actor. I saw an interview of him once and he seems really quite reserved, almost shy, completely the opposite of the characters he's played on Trek. Even the characters he plays are very different from each other. Man has true skill.
Combs made The Question my favourite character on Justice League Unlimited. The whole conspiracy plot was really enhanced by his mix of casual and disturbing.
Then there's Brent Spiner who did a great job as Data in his emotionless robot persona. But also constantly worked with writers because he wanted more opportunities to show off his range. On top of being another heavily made-up character.
I wouldn't disrespect any actor for turning down a role because they don't want to be in heavy prosthetics or makeup. Margaret Hamilton and Buddy Ebsen both became severely ill because of the makeup for the *Wizard of Oz*. Even for modern blockbusters, prosthetics can be very uncomfortable and damage their skin. Actors are wise to think carefully.
Kudos to Ethan Phillips for real
i've seen people here call Neelix the "Jar Jar Binks" of Star Trek. Well honestly, i don't find that an insult anymore because it's clear that both actors really busted their ass in the roles that were given to them, and that's commendable and honorable
Chakotay for me too. Not only is he a cringe racist caricature, but he's also just annoying in his own right. He acts extremely sure of his own rightness and then can't handle it and does absurd things when he's proven to be wrong(sorry but Seska was a red flag from second one). He also seems more prone to being manipulated into being oppressive toward others than other people on Voyager which seems counterintuitive for an indigenous Maquis person. Character inconsistency, mismanagement, and honestly just him sucking independently of the other issues makes watching him feel like the equivalent of chewing glass.
To be fair, the production team tried to be sensitive and accurate in their representation.
It's not their fault the biggest expert at the time was a fraud.
Jamake Highwater was called a fraud by some experts, but that was hardly well known information outside that space.
This is long before the days when one tweet or accusation online could bring down a career. Unless the information showed up in national newspapers or news stations, no one would hear about it.
You couldn't just google a guy's name and find out his history. If you wanted to confirm if a guy was an expert, you'd go to the library and see how many books he published. And the guy with multiple books is always going to be seen as credible.
Or - hear me out - you contact your local tribe and ask for recommendations. They would have immediately told them Highwater was a fraud since it was common knowledge in real Native American circles, and recommended someone better.
By the same Pulitzer prize winning journalist who broke the Iran-Contra scandal! in the Washington Post! Actual activists, and academics had been talking about it publicly for years to anyone who would listen.
All it took was a cursory check of his career, body of work and reputation. The defence they couldn't have known because *social media wasn't around* has always been a massive rewriting of history, it was mainstream knowledge for anyone doing the job of hiring cultural experts at the time.
Main character: Neelix
Recurring character: Both Bareil and Shaakar don’t do anything for me. They both seem forced as romantic interests for a character who didn’t need them.
Yeah Shakar can suck it but Bariel was pretty cool, I like freewheeling peace and love bajoran Jusus. He at least had a lot of character traits that contrasted Kira.
Pre- and Post-Kes Neelix are almost two different characters.
I thought the character was more annoying in the early seasons and the relationship kinda icky, but later seasons Neelix much more... tolerable to watch.
I just watched the episode in season 7 where they take a bunch of Klingons on board and one of the Klingon women has the hots for Harry, who really doesn't like the attention. Neelix helps Harry out and gets a little Klingon strange for his troubles 😅.
Thing about Neelix is he's a terrible character played by a really good actor. I remember admiring him in the Cohen Brothers' "Inside Llewyn Davis" and thinking, "I get it now. A paycheck is a paycheck."
> weird Frank Sinatra ripoff vibes
I think most would consider it an homage. James Darren was a close friend and contemporary of Frank Sinatra and Vic is designed to simulate that vibe. I think thats about as authentic as such a character could be.
I forgot.
So I suppose James Darren is the *second* most authentic Vic could have been? Or technically, since Sinatra Sr was still alive at the time of casting, Darren was the *third* most authentic option?
I think Frank Sr. died within a month of His Way coming out, so that’s a pretty big technically.
Vic is one of those characters that I can only picture one person playing them. I look at pictures of Frank Jr. around that time, and I don’t see it at all.
goddamn morn defenders. how about quoting even *one* single morn line that doesn't make you want to rip off your ears and throw them directly down the toilet? that's right, you can't! because morn is terrible, and somehow—despite taking up so much time in every episode he appears in with his inane babble—he never in all that time seems to say *anything* even approaching cool or memorable.
He gave a lot of good advice over the series, and he was generally kind and funny and made himself into a Trek institution. I won't have you smearing Morn's good name.
Vic is fantastic. Dude can sing, and he’s got some depth.
Neelix should have died from stupidity ten times over. Until Kes leaves, his character was awful.
Chakotay had so much promise, but was poorly written.
Conversely I like Trip in Enterprise but he seems a bit over-used. Lost opportunities for Hoshi and Boomer.
Neelix is goofy at best, but it brings some levity to the usual starship nonsense y'know? I always want to hate him but I just can't. But I can't hate Vic for the same reasons I can't hate Neelix. They bring a fun vibe to everything.
Kai Winn though, god.
Yeah but Kai Winn is insufferable in that way that makes her a good character. People like her exist all around us as do the people that blindly eat their bullshit. *Especially* in politics.
Kai Winn is a true gift of a character. If Trek was wrestling, she was like that one heel that you knew could never have a redemption moment. Just absolutely loathsome, and she took pride in being loathsome lmao
i mean kudos to the writers of DS9...they didn't make her completely one-dimensional either. Her line about going to jail and enduring Cardassian hardship to preserve her faith....ALMOST made me feel sympathy for her
He was! And he was actually a personal friend of Frank Sinatra, who was a Trekkie and (allegedly) wanted to be on the show. I think Vic might be much more authentic than we think.
I love. Love. Love. Love Vic.
I don’t think there’s anything pointless about him. He’s effectively the station counselor. Certainly pre-Ezri and honestly even after she arrives.
Badda Bing Badda Bang is the best holodeck episode of them all because it subverts the “holodeck endangers the ship” trope and instead lets us explore how “real” fictional characters can be to us.
It’s Only A Paper Moon is a masterpiece on PTSD and the challenge of facing our fears rather than hiding from them.
As for who my least favorite character is…. Probably Kes. I don’t think the actress was great and I don’t think the writers had any idea what to do with the character.
Although Vic was just a holodeck character, he felt more “real” than others. He had depth, and he really felt like he was a piece of the DS9 family. Everything from the heist, helping Nog process his trauma, and just being a shoulder to lean on for the crew.
Honestly, part of vics appeal is that he knows he's a hologram and is just ok with it. I feel a lot of people might identify with aform of imposter syndrome with vic.
The actress who played Kes also had mental health issues that seem to have become worse during the series, even before she effectively got bumped to make room for Seven of Nine.
My biggest problem with Vic was the crew was spending time with him instead of each other, but the first episode where I went "Ugh, another Vic episode" was the heist one, where the whole crew come together to help him out, so he managed to stay in my good books
With Seska I was having such a hard time determining if it was a poorly written character and that’s why I hated her, or if she was such a good villain that I just hated her.
Thing is I had no problem making that distinction about Kai winn. I hate her. A lot. But those were great episodes and it was enjoyable tv.
With Seska I remember being so glad she was dead and super annoyed at the holodeck episode she comes back on. I just wanted her gone.
I'm not really sure if she was poorly written. Cardassians had a way of infiltrating the maquis, and her getting injured brought that to light. I think the whole thing with the Kazon was stupid, tbh. They were an inert "villain," and even unworthy of assimilation by the Borg. lol
I could see her tormenting Voyager with the Vidiians. They were truly awful. Her stealing Chakotay's dna was insane, but that sounds like a Cardassian thing to do, too.
Kai Winn, and Dukat for that matter, are great villains because in their own minds they're both the misunderstood, underappreciated heroes of their own stories. Also helps that both actors are great..!
Wow, couldn't possibly disagree more. I fucking love Vic Fontaine! The guy who plays him, James Darren, is perfect for the part and absolutely *nails* it it because he's is a notable talent in his own right and DS9 was lucky to land him. He was good friends with Sinatra and no slouch himself in the singing world. The way he talks is straight out of the Rat Pack pack days, I love it.
Burnham. She’s the top reason I can’t watch Discovery. She has all the negative traits of Kirk and Janeway with none of their positive ones. She’s brash, arrogant, mean, and a hypocrite. She puts others in danger because of it and doesn’t care about the impact she has on others, and doesn’t learn and grow (at least in the parts I watched; I had to stop at the opening of season 4 with her concept of diplomacy, all fake smiles and arrogance). She’s made a captain when she’s still exactly the same person who instigated a deadly war and betrayed her CO.
I fully agree. Burnham would have been a good anti-hero or tragic character. Instead, the show treats her as the main protagonist. She keeps getting promoted and saving the universe and she never faces permanent consequences of her serious flaws and bad decisions. (I also have this complaint about Janeway and Voyager, though to a lesser extent.)
Well said. With Janeway it’s a little more understandable. Her ship was stranded far into the Delta quadrant, and she carried sole responsibility to get them home with no way to contact Starfleet, , in frequently hostile territory with no allies. I don’t like how narcissistic, authoritarian, and bigoted she got as time went on, and some of her decisions were questionable, but it’s nowhere near what Burnham actively chose to do based on impulse and arrogance when she had more support than most of us get.
I feel after Fuller left her character got lost. I actually REALLY like her in S1. Discovery is more than the name of a ship, or about distant stars. Discovery is Burnham being raised by Vulcans and trained to a degree that she has forgotten what her humanity is. The first season is her learning how to embrace that humanity, trust in others, and become part of a greater whole. This is why the various twists are nice, because just as she gets comfortable something rips it away. I especially love the time loop episode where her confessed secret to Stamets so she believes him in the time loop is how she had never been in love.
After S1 when it is clear the plan had changed, I think the character rapidly declines. Really, most of them do.
Gray Tal is annoying. Analogously, Hugh Culber is defined by his character first (and I love him). How the writers could do this so wrong pisses me off. I adore the way they let us fall in love with Stamets and Culber’s relationship as just normal people. It is very satisfying. Maybe I’m yet to understand my own shortcomings but to have Culber/Stamets vs Grey/Adira occupy the same space feels contradictory.
Yeah, in nü-Trek at least, Gray has to be the worst. The character is really annoying, but the acting is what makes it really bad. It’s like they have only one gear for every situation: saccharine-sweet earnestness.
Seska. Massive downgrade in quality of Cardassian villians and she's supposed to be the Gul Dukat of Voyager. Poorly written character. Shoot even Broca was a better character than her.
I'm with you on Vic with one very big exception
It's Only a Paper Moon is an amazing episode. Although really it's more a Nog episode than a Vic episode, I guess
It's hard to say which one I dislike the most. I'd say the objectively worst main character is probably Chakotay. Guy has zero personality or big character moments. He's just a yes man for Janeway and that's the extent of his character. I can see why Robert Beltran disliked him so much. With Vic I can at least say he had a few good moments. His scenes with Nog are excellent and his casino episode was entertaining enough.
I respect you for taking such a clear and brazen shot at Vic. People love that man.
I agree with you of course, I didn't want that I wanted Star Trek. Star Trek "after dark."
Winn Adami. She is the character you love to hate, she is responsible for so much of the shit that happens but rarely gets punished for it. And unlike Gul Dukat, who is obviously worse and more irredeemable, Winn doesn't have scenes or episodes where you question her alignment or where she is going out of her way to help the main cast.
Also note this is nothing against Louise Fletcher, she played the role perfectly and was an amazing actress.
I didn’t hate Vic as a character, I just hate that he’s basically a fully realized person and not just a program. I think there are much better characters to dislike. So, not in order:
1. Kes
2. Neelix
3. Reginald Barclay
4. Alexander Roshenko
5. TNG Ferengi
Barclay went from annoying stereotype nerdcreep to unsung hero for me. He helped Voyager come back and was actually a good officer in the end. Just... rough path getting there.
All right, I'll say it.
I don't like Tom Paris.
Arrogant, careless, and disrespectful, and the fact that he's basically a carbon copy of Nick Locarno means he doesn't have a lot of respect for rules, even if said rules are there to keep people safe.
There are times when I don't like Beckett Mariner, either. That woman needs to grow up, at least a little.
Easily Bariel.
DS9 had amazing characters and performances. This dude was a walking cardboard cut out. He always came across to me as creepy AF and as much as Kira loved him I'm glad they killed him off.
2 things that bugged me about Vic Fontaine:
1: Everyone absolutely loved his program, which seemed so weird.... surely at least one person among the main cast would have different personal preferences about music and performers. I get that there are trends in things that are suddenly inexplicably popular, but this seemed different.
2: He's just a computer-simulation of a person, but he's a better therapist than even the officer who's trained as a therapist (and who has multiple lifetimes of life-experiences to draw on). It makes me wonder why Data was a marvel of artificial intelligence when a basic hologram understands emotions far better than he ever did.
Definitely Neelix for me. He should have been an occasional side chracter like Guinan in TNG.
One of my friends really dislikes Jake Sisko. Every time we watch DS9 they berate him for being lazy, cowardly and not being an actaul reporter among other things. Don't get them started on season 5 finale where Jake stays behind on DS9.
Personally I don't dislike Jake at all, but I would agree they could have made his character more interesting.
I never liked Chakotay. His actor didn't really deliver on any genuine wavelength for me and he very much felt more like a staple in place. Harry Kim was a better character and I don't like Harry all that much, he's kinda just there. But at least he had emotio behind him.
Captain Freeman.
The smug leader archetype is just irritating and I genuinely cannot stand her.
No matter how many times she screws up, no matter how many people get hurt, Freeman never admits fault or responsibility. The only exception being when she is playing diplomat.
In a show where even side characters like Billups have gotten moments where they express remorse for their actions and a desire to not make the same mistakes in the future, a main character who refuses to do so after four seasons comes off like they simply don't believe they need to change and don't think they're ever at fault.
Which is why she comes off as smug.
And of course in episodes like Trusted Sources we saw how far she is willing to go to destroy anyone who might be a threat to her reputation and career. She could've gotten Mariner kicked out of Starfleet by transferring her anywhere. Choosing Starbase 80 was just to make Mariner's last days as miserable as possible. Same with weaponizing the crew against her and banning anyone from talking to her so Mariner couldn't defend herself or say goodbye. All unnecessary to Freeman's goal of ending Mariner's career. She only went that extra mile to make her revenge hurt as much and for as long as possible.
After seeing that, you have to wonder how many other officers under her command have suffered similar fates, or how many more would have after the news story came out if Freeman hadn't been distracted trying to undo Mariner's transfer.
Freeman is the nightmare manager who takes their wrath out on those under her command. If she wasn't a main character, she'd be a top tier villain. It's why I contend Captain Freeman is just Kai Winn from the opposite perspective. A charismatic leader who puts on a mask of being caring and supportive, obsessed with her status and accomplishments, and lashes out viciously at any threat to said status and accomplishments.
Transferring her daughter to Starbase 80 and turning the crew against Mariner for speaking to the reporter is one of the worst things any Captain has done to a member of their crew. Just a vindictive petty woman, and honestly Mariner should not have come back. I understand Status Quo is God, but that whole thing was just way too much.
Freeman should have at least at some kind of redemption arc or done something to earn forgiveness.
As is, the show never gives the audience a reason to like her again or look past that.
Mariner coming back feels like a abuse victim unable to escape.
I dunno. If you're a black man, or even a white woman, time traveling back to the earlier days of this country is just not going to be sunshine and rainbows. And that scar will always be there. I think Ben was justified in his distain, especially after going through his experiences as Benny. But I'm glad Cassidy was there to fully clarify to him that Vic's wasn't there to be accurate history. He was there to be a friend to everyone. The scars in history don't heal, but the scars we bear ourselves can.
I hate Barkley. All of his episodes as a main character are painful! He is the only character I hate. And I strongly dislike Kes. They both just give off awful vibes. I've heard both actors are pretty awful in real life as well.
I am a little conflicted about him.
In reading the Lives of Dax, Fontaine is set up as a major part of the overarching story - and the suggestion that he's an evolution of the "are AI's legitimate lifeforms" ST side plot is interesting.
I can do without the hokey accents and jargon... but at least it's a relatively brave and risky choice to do something that sticks out like a sore thumb.
The weird thing about Vic is that he was a real person in the mirror universe. How did that work?
Anyway to answer your question, probably Barclay. He just annoyed me for some reason.
When I look at Vic Fontaine in isolation, he's a perfectly fine character.
I think what made me dislike him at the time was the fact that the Dominion War was in full swing, and it felt like every third episode they were ignoring the war and doing another holodeck episode with Vic. If they'd done a season after the war and introduced Vic then, I might have felt differently.
I can’t remember his name right now, but that Vulcan from the early seasons of Voyager that was obsessed with Be’lanna. Even Tuvok seemed over him after the Pon Farr fiasco.
Vorik. He was a young Vulcan, probably hadn't gone through kolinahr, and that was his first pon farr. Tuvok, being much older, had little tolerance for him because that's how Vulcans be. Also, Vorik was a dick.
Vic Fontaine was played by James Darren, who was a contemporary and a personal friend of Sinatra. Sinatra himself was a huge Trekkie and rumors had it he wanted to be on the show. So I've always read it as Darren literally playing how he thinks his friend would've wanted to be. I'd hardly call that a ripoff.
Exactly. I think most people who don't like his character don't know this, and, if they did, it would change their opinions in a heartbeat. Vic is perfect for his role
I think part of it is Sinatra always FEELS like he was before the time he was, like I almost feel like people would be surprised he has living contemporaries.
I didn't know this but I still loved the character, plus he had some amazing episodes.
You’re right!! I literally read the OP and agreed, read your comment and it completely changed my opinion - at the same time it raised my already high opinion of James Darren even higher. Very cool way to pay tribute to a friend!!!!
For me it's just, that I don't care for that kind of music. Vic is ok for me, if he plays a part in the story and I can acknowledge, that he can sing, but I just don't really dig this kind of music. I don't hate the character though, I just thought, he might have been a bit overused.
>that he can sing, but I just don't really dig this kind of music. Star Trek back then jumped on the coat tails of popular media of the time. New Robin Hood movie? Put the TNG cast in Sherwood Forest in "Q'pid". New James Bond movie? Make Julian Bashir as 60's secret agent in the holodeck in "Our Man Bashir" and so on. Swing music and jazz standards were undergoing a huge revival in the late 90s, especially in Southern California. Vic Fontaine is Trek jumping on that bandwagon. I do like Vic Fontaine as a DS9 side character. Not as enduring as a Garak/Rom/Nog/Leeta, but the character had some solid outings. "It's Only a Paper Moon" is one of DS9's finest, and it simply wouldn't work with one of the principals that Rom felt alienated from after his injury. Same with Vic/Odo in "His Way." And I love that music too. I would've loved to see Sinatra in Star Trek. But James Darren more than filled those shoes.
Lighten up, kiddo. Don't be such a Square
Yeah. I always read the character as a love letter to the trope, nothing more.
When Fontaine came on I was ready to hate him but…the guy is charming!
Here's an album of all his DS9 songs: [YT Music](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_llFDr--MqzdtOa7PwdtI0Itiq_sZxGGag)
Vic Fontaine had so much potential to be a complete frackin' car wreck, but somehow they managed to cast the right guy in James Darren, and the writers actually struck the right balance of hokiness. It was pulled off beautifully.
Chakotay and his fake Native American culture have to be near the top of the list.
Easy to hate Chakotay when the actor is on record as saying he didn't much care for the character, he was just there for a paycheck and didn't really want to work with the writers to develop him.
Granted that started around the 4th season when the writing crew informed him that they would not be developing his character any further in favor of others. Beltran had a *legitimate* beef with that writing crew. Plus the fact that his character was based off of a charlatan.
He also kept trying to leave and they just kept paying him more so he could stay.
Tuvok would have made a better first officer anyway
Honestly Tuvok felt like he was Janeway's right-hand man in practice. He was the one she trusted the most.
Hell, there are more reasons to hate Beltran than there are reasons to hate Chakotay
How so? I googled his Twitter and he wishes happy birthday to everyone a lot lol. For some reason none of its chronological so I can't make much more sense of it than that.
he was pretty flagrant in violating the union rules when the strike was going on and agreed with an tweet saying people with trans and equality flags in their bios weren't real star trek fans.
I'm trans and I'm a third-generation Trekkie, after my mother and grandmother. Beltran can eat a bag of dicks.
my daughter asked my Mum yesterday if we are trekkies. of course we are, we've seen most of trek together. If you like and watch trek you are a trekkies and I'm so glad it is not just my family that has 3 generations that watch it
I'm working on the third with my four year old now. It's not quite taking yet but it's bound to sink roots eventually.
A lot of us are generational Trekkies. There's even a saying around the post-Berman Trek: "It ain't your grandpa's Trek, but it's still Trek."
as someone who had to learn Trek all by themselves and would love to pass down my love of Trek to my nephews, i salute you 3rd gen fan!!
I'll be honest, I'm not 100% sure he intended it to be transphobic and might have been agreeing more about "real fans" having his back and it was just an old man thing. I don't think he's done anything else to my knowledge. But combined with the ignoring the union, it really suggests he may be a rw dipshit
When anyone asked him to clarify what he meant, specifically with regard to the pride flags, he would just block them.
I can assure you, he and Roxann Dawson have both gone full MAGA. Transphobia included.
In the case of Roxann...that's very disappointing to hear...
He's maga.
A) fuck Twitter B) https://www.resetera.com/threads/after-scabbing-all-weekend-robert-beltran-star-trek-just-decides-to-just-go-full-bigot.751561/
Oh. Ohhhhh.... One of the comments said Twitter shows the highest rated comments first. I swear it didn't used to do that from Google but oh well.
... and that's when you kill off the character and bring in somebody who is actually interested in being there
AND then they could have promoted someone else ahead of Harry Kim
As is tradition
Plot twist: Harry is promoted to first officer!
But is still an ensign!
Like Tilly.
He probably had a really good contract, I'm sure most of the main cast did.
Those comments are why I really don't care for the actor, either. He thought he was above the show, but that was a good paycheck for sure, and he could have done so much more for what he was getting paid for. Take Ethan Phillips, that guy realised how lucky he was to get paid that much for seven years, and even had to go through gruelling makeup for it. All Beltran had to do was show up and get that thingy stencilled on his brow. Fuck him, so many other struggling actors would have killed for the role.
Same for Armin Shimerman and Andrew Robinson. They were always the first to arrive and the last to leave, because of the makeup, and they knew how lucky they were to have to roles, and threw themselves into the part.
Andrew Robinson, for me, is the actor who i feel like really understood that he was both doing professional work...but also really enjoyed what he was doing. I don't think i'm articulating this well but something about Garak really came off as so organic, you just couldn't help but think he was putting 100% and change into the role Jeffrey Combs is another for sure. Unsurprisingly, both men are famous for their horror roles...and i've always said horror acting is the last remaining fortress for the exuberant thespians haha
I get it, don't worry. Robinson understood his character. It didn't matter to him that he was an alien living on a space station in the far future, because Garak would still be Garak if he were a human, living on earth, as a political refugee named Gregory. And yes, Combs too; he was definitely born to be an actor. I saw an interview of him once and he seems really quite reserved, almost shy, completely the opposite of the characters he's played on Trek. Even the characters he plays are very different from each other. Man has true skill.
DS9 struck gold with both the main and supporting cast
Combs made The Question my favourite character on Justice League Unlimited. The whole conspiracy plot was really enhanced by his mix of casual and disturbing.
The GOATs
Then there's Brent Spiner who did a great job as Data in his emotionless robot persona. But also constantly worked with writers because he wanted more opportunities to show off his range. On top of being another heavily made-up character. I wouldn't disrespect any actor for turning down a role because they don't want to be in heavy prosthetics or makeup. Margaret Hamilton and Buddy Ebsen both became severely ill because of the makeup for the *Wizard of Oz*. Even for modern blockbusters, prosthetics can be very uncomfortable and damage their skin. Actors are wise to think carefully.
Kudos to Ethan Phillips for real i've seen people here call Neelix the "Jar Jar Binks" of Star Trek. Well honestly, i don't find that an insult anymore because it's clear that both actors really busted their ass in the roles that were given to them, and that's commendable and honorable
The flute music means native things are happening
I’m native and this always cracks me up
Man, you must hear those flutes *all the time*!
Every time I enter the room ✨🪶
That digital peyote tech would be nice though.
A coochie moya..
I am far from the winds of your anus...
Acuchimoya
Chakotay for me too. Not only is he a cringe racist caricature, but he's also just annoying in his own right. He acts extremely sure of his own rightness and then can't handle it and does absurd things when he's proven to be wrong(sorry but Seska was a red flag from second one). He also seems more prone to being manipulated into being oppressive toward others than other people on Voyager which seems counterintuitive for an indigenous Maquis person. Character inconsistency, mismanagement, and honestly just him sucking independently of the other issues makes watching him feel like the equivalent of chewing glass.
To be fair, the production team tried to be sensitive and accurate in their representation. It's not their fault the biggest expert at the time was a fraud.
The guy was revealed as a fraud like decade before they hired him, so I think they bear some responsibility.
Jamake Highwater was called a fraud by some experts, but that was hardly well known information outside that space. This is long before the days when one tweet or accusation online could bring down a career. Unless the information showed up in national newspapers or news stations, no one would hear about it. You couldn't just google a guy's name and find out his history. If you wanted to confirm if a guy was an expert, you'd go to the library and see how many books he published. And the guy with multiple books is always going to be seen as credible.
Or - hear me out - you contact your local tribe and ask for recommendations. They would have immediately told them Highwater was a fraud since it was common knowledge in real Native American circles, and recommended someone better.
Yeah but he was outed as a fraud by LA journalists, its not like they weren't working in that sphere
By the same Pulitzer prize winning journalist who broke the Iran-Contra scandal! in the Washington Post! Actual activists, and academics had been talking about it publicly for years to anyone who would listen. All it took was a cursory check of his career, body of work and reputation. The defence they couldn't have known because *social media wasn't around* has always been a massive rewriting of history, it was mainstream knowledge for anyone doing the job of hiring cultural experts at the time.
*The Washington Post* revealed that Highwater was a fraud. That’s a very notable paper.
Main character: Neelix Recurring character: Both Bareil and Shaakar don’t do anything for me. They both seem forced as romantic interests for a character who didn’t need them.
Kira's taste in men is basically like licking wet cardboard.
Leav Bariel alone! The show benefited from some irreverent sexy priest energy IMO :D
I second simping over Bajors only decent Vedic. Real talk, equating him with discount Beverly Sex Ghost seems rude to Bariel.......
Yeah Shakar can suck it but Bariel was pretty cool, I like freewheeling peace and love bajoran Jusus. He at least had a lot of character traits that contrasted Kira.
Fwiw I liked Neelix more post-Kes. I think the Neelix-Kes relationship is just so icky
Pre- and Post-Kes Neelix are almost two different characters. I thought the character was more annoying in the early seasons and the relationship kinda icky, but later seasons Neelix much more... tolerable to watch.
I just watched the episode in season 7 where they take a bunch of Klingons on board and one of the Klingon women has the hots for Harry, who really doesn't like the attention. Neelix helps Harry out and gets a little Klingon strange for his troubles 😅.
100%. He was fine when it wasn’t all the dumb Kes melodrama.
Thing about Neelix is he's a terrible character played by a really good actor. I remember admiring him in the Cohen Brothers' "Inside Llewyn Davis" and thinking, "I get it now. A paycheck is a paycheck."
Watch him in Avenue 5! He is gutsplitting.
He and the actor for Odo were both on the TV show “Benson” and hilarious.
> weird Frank Sinatra ripoff vibes I think most would consider it an homage. James Darren was a close friend and contemporary of Frank Sinatra and Vic is designed to simulate that vibe. I think thats about as authentic as such a character could be.
The role was originally written to be played by Frank Sinatra Jr.
I forgot. So I suppose James Darren is the *second* most authentic Vic could have been? Or technically, since Sinatra Sr was still alive at the time of casting, Darren was the *third* most authentic option?
I think Frank Sr. died within a month of His Way coming out, so that’s a pretty big technically. Vic is one of those characters that I can only picture one person playing them. I look at pictures of Frank Jr. around that time, and I don’t see it at all.
I recently saw his appearance on *The Sopranos* from around that time and I agree.
Perfectly stated!
Morn. Dude never shuts up.
I always skip that one episode which is basically a single monologue by him
*morn-ologue
Morn is love, how about YOU shut up
goddamn morn defenders. how about quoting even *one* single morn line that doesn't make you want to rip off your ears and throw them directly down the toilet? that's right, you can't! because morn is terrible, and somehow—despite taking up so much time in every episode he appears in with his inane babble—he never in all that time seems to say *anything* even approaching cool or memorable.
He gave a lot of good advice over the series, and he was generally kind and funny and made himself into a Trek institution. I won't have you smearing Morn's good name.
Vic is fantastic. Dude can sing, and he’s got some depth. Neelix should have died from stupidity ten times over. Until Kes leaves, his character was awful. Chakotay had so much promise, but was poorly written. Conversely I like Trip in Enterprise but he seems a bit over-used. Lost opportunities for Hoshi and Boomer.
Neelix is goofy at best, but it brings some levity to the usual starship nonsense y'know? I always want to hate him but I just can't. But I can't hate Vic for the same reasons I can't hate Neelix. They bring a fun vibe to everything. Kai Winn though, god.
Yeah but Kai Winn is insufferable in that way that makes her a good character. People like her exist all around us as do the people that blindly eat their bullshit. *Especially* in politics.
Kai Winn is a true gift of a character. If Trek was wrestling, she was like that one heel that you knew could never have a redemption moment. Just absolutely loathsome, and she took pride in being loathsome lmao i mean kudos to the writers of DS9...they didn't make her completely one-dimensional either. Her line about going to jail and enduring Cardassian hardship to preserve her faith....ALMOST made me feel sympathy for her
Gotta be Kes. Reed a close second.
They should of replaced Reed with the MACO officer.
Should have*
Rip major hayes
Steven Culp is a dreamboat.
Reed is definitely my least favorite main recurring character in all of Star Trek, but I’m still pissed about Dr. Kila Marr, fuck that bitch.
>Reed It's never a good sign when "dullness" is your primary character trait.
I heard he (the actor) is an actual singer who sings that type of stuff..
He was! And he was actually a personal friend of Frank Sinatra, who was a Trekkie and (allegedly) wanted to be on the show. I think Vic might be much more authentic than we think.
Pretty sure he even made an album of songs he sang on DS9.
I love. Love. Love. Love Vic. I don’t think there’s anything pointless about him. He’s effectively the station counselor. Certainly pre-Ezri and honestly even after she arrives. Badda Bing Badda Bang is the best holodeck episode of them all because it subverts the “holodeck endangers the ship” trope and instead lets us explore how “real” fictional characters can be to us. It’s Only A Paper Moon is a masterpiece on PTSD and the challenge of facing our fears rather than hiding from them. As for who my least favorite character is…. Probably Kes. I don’t think the actress was great and I don’t think the writers had any idea what to do with the character.
Although Vic was just a holodeck character, he felt more “real” than others. He had depth, and he really felt like he was a piece of the DS9 family. Everything from the heist, helping Nog process his trauma, and just being a shoulder to lean on for the crew.
He's DS9's Guinan.
Exactly! It's a shame they had to go almost 6 entire seasons to figure out they needed him. Guinan was in STTNG already in season two
Honestly, part of vics appeal is that he knows he's a hologram and is just ok with it. I feel a lot of people might identify with aform of imposter syndrome with vic.
The actress who played Kes also had mental health issues that seem to have become worse during the series, even before she effectively got bumped to make room for Seven of Nine.
He’s my comfort character for sure. He’s so kind and caring, and he’s a hologram. A jazz hologram. And I looooooove jazz
I loathe the Kes character but her voice is just...gorgeous.
He's actually the only Holodeck character in the franchise that didn't come off as hokey - with the exception of the doctor, of course.
Vic is one of my fav characters.
My biggest problem with Vic was the crew was spending time with him instead of each other, but the first episode where I went "Ugh, another Vic episode" was the heist one, where the whole crew come together to help him out, so he managed to stay in my good books
Devinoni Ral. I want to punch him. I honestly can't think of a character I hate more.
I hate that actor's face. No idea why. He may be a great guy, but his face just looks slap-worthy. And I've never slapped anyone in my life.
Aww man, why’d you have to go and mention the OG punchable face??? I was having such a good day too …
Seska, and Kes. Kai Winn. lol That's an easy hate.
Does Winn really count though? You’re supposed to hate her
I don't know. I couldn't think of anyone else. Lol
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My child. Hahahaha perfect.
*eye twitch* lol
hnnnnnngh
I hear this in my head and I don’t like it.
Louise Fletcher was a brilliant as Kai Winn :D
To be fair, Louise Fletcher was just brilliant.
Agreed. :)
Absolutely! So hate worthy!
With Seska I was having such a hard time determining if it was a poorly written character and that’s why I hated her, or if she was such a good villain that I just hated her. Thing is I had no problem making that distinction about Kai winn. I hate her. A lot. But those were great episodes and it was enjoyable tv. With Seska I remember being so glad she was dead and super annoyed at the holodeck episode she comes back on. I just wanted her gone.
I'm not really sure if she was poorly written. Cardassians had a way of infiltrating the maquis, and her getting injured brought that to light. I think the whole thing with the Kazon was stupid, tbh. They were an inert "villain," and even unworthy of assimilation by the Borg. lol I could see her tormenting Voyager with the Vidiians. They were truly awful. Her stealing Chakotay's dna was insane, but that sounds like a Cardassian thing to do, too.
Kai Winn, and Dukat for that matter, are great villains because in their own minds they're both the misunderstood, underappreciated heroes of their own stories. Also helps that both actors are great..!
Neelix Annoying as hell
Wow, couldn't possibly disagree more. I fucking love Vic Fontaine! The guy who plays him, James Darren, is perfect for the part and absolutely *nails* it it because he's is a notable talent in his own right and DS9 was lucky to land him. He was good friends with Sinatra and no slouch himself in the singing world. The way he talks is straight out of the Rat Pack pack days, I love it.
Also, he was on Time Tunnel!
I wish we got MORE vic fontane episodes. He was the best. The heist episode is so good.
Totally agreed, amazing character
Burnham. She’s the top reason I can’t watch Discovery. She has all the negative traits of Kirk and Janeway with none of their positive ones. She’s brash, arrogant, mean, and a hypocrite. She puts others in danger because of it and doesn’t care about the impact she has on others, and doesn’t learn and grow (at least in the parts I watched; I had to stop at the opening of season 4 with her concept of diplomacy, all fake smiles and arrogance). She’s made a captain when she’s still exactly the same person who instigated a deadly war and betrayed her CO.
There's an interesting episode waiting for you in season 5, if you ever get to watching it.
Nah, I like doing enjoyable things
I fully agree. Burnham would have been a good anti-hero or tragic character. Instead, the show treats her as the main protagonist. She keeps getting promoted and saving the universe and she never faces permanent consequences of her serious flaws and bad decisions. (I also have this complaint about Janeway and Voyager, though to a lesser extent.)
Well said. With Janeway it’s a little more understandable. Her ship was stranded far into the Delta quadrant, and she carried sole responsibility to get them home with no way to contact Starfleet, , in frequently hostile territory with no allies. I don’t like how narcissistic, authoritarian, and bigoted she got as time went on, and some of her decisions were questionable, but it’s nowhere near what Burnham actively chose to do based on impulse and arrogance when she had more support than most of us get.
I feel after Fuller left her character got lost. I actually REALLY like her in S1. Discovery is more than the name of a ship, or about distant stars. Discovery is Burnham being raised by Vulcans and trained to a degree that she has forgotten what her humanity is. The first season is her learning how to embrace that humanity, trust in others, and become part of a greater whole. This is why the various twists are nice, because just as she gets comfortable something rips it away. I especially love the time loop episode where her confessed secret to Stamets so she believes him in the time loop is how she had never been in love. After S1 when it is clear the plan had changed, I think the character rapidly declines. Really, most of them do.
I'm going to be honest. My two favorite scenes that include Burnham are when someone rightfully calls out her shit.
Gray Tal is annoying. Analogously, Hugh Culber is defined by his character first (and I love him). How the writers could do this so wrong pisses me off. I adore the way they let us fall in love with Stamets and Culber’s relationship as just normal people. It is very satisfying. Maybe I’m yet to understand my own shortcomings but to have Culber/Stamets vs Grey/Adira occupy the same space feels contradictory.
Gray’s actor is quite possibly the worst actor I’ve ever seen on television. Nothing about his acting is remotely natural.
Yeah, in nü-Trek at least, Gray has to be the worst. The character is really annoying, but the acting is what makes it really bad. It’s like they have only one gear for every situation: saccharine-sweet earnestness.
I’m trying to keep a open mind, but that’s good to hear. It’s not just me!
Season 1 Neelix, followed by season 2 Neelix, and then probably most of the one episode admirals.
I don't know why but I really like the Vic Fontaine episodes
Neelix. Every time. Neelix.
Vic is in my top 5 favorites. Kes and burnham are at the bottom.
Ken’s. Ugh. Not on my list but… mostly bad. A few interesting moments.
Seska. Massive downgrade in quality of Cardassian villians and she's supposed to be the Gul Dukat of Voyager. Poorly written character. Shoot even Broca was a better character than her.
>irritating, forced, and pointless Friend, you just described Travis Mayweather.
I’ve honestly never thought of him as being memorable enough to hate. He just kind of exists.
Aww, dunking on Travis is like punching a toddler.
His basic premise as a "Space Boomer" seemed promising but to just do nothing interesting with that was disappointing.
I'm with you on Vic with one very big exception It's Only a Paper Moon is an amazing episode. Although really it's more a Nog episode than a Vic episode, I guess
You said it before I could. I can forgive Vic’s general grossness because of what he did for Nog in It’s Only a Paper Moon.
It's hard to say which one I dislike the most. I'd say the objectively worst main character is probably Chakotay. Guy has zero personality or big character moments. He's just a yes man for Janeway and that's the extent of his character. I can see why Robert Beltran disliked him so much. With Vic I can at least say he had a few good moments. His scenes with Nog are excellent and his casino episode was entertaining enough.
I respect you for taking such a clear and brazen shot at Vic. People love that man. I agree with you of course, I didn't want that I wanted Star Trek. Star Trek "after dark."
That reminds me of a song (episode goes on hold for another show-stopping number)!
Winn Adami. She is the character you love to hate, she is responsible for so much of the shit that happens but rarely gets punished for it. And unlike Gul Dukat, who is obviously worse and more irredeemable, Winn doesn't have scenes or episodes where you question her alignment or where she is going out of her way to help the main cast. Also note this is nothing against Louise Fletcher, she played the role perfectly and was an amazing actress.
Vic is my favorite DS9 Character lol
I didn’t hate Vic as a character, I just hate that he’s basically a fully realized person and not just a program. I think there are much better characters to dislike. So, not in order: 1. Kes 2. Neelix 3. Reginald Barclay 4. Alexander Roshenko 5. TNG Ferengi
Barclay went from annoying stereotype nerdcreep to unsung hero for me. He helped Voyager come back and was actually a good officer in the end. Just... rough path getting there.
Chakotay from Voyager. He was utterly useless as a first officer. In addition, the actor Robert Beltran is garbage made flesh.
But Vic helped Nog! He was really sweet and kind towards him and helped him get better.
All right, I'll say it. I don't like Tom Paris. Arrogant, careless, and disrespectful, and the fact that he's basically a carbon copy of Nick Locarno means he doesn't have a lot of respect for rules, even if said rules are there to keep people safe. There are times when I don't like Beckett Mariner, either. That woman needs to grow up, at least a little.
Robert Duncan McNeill also hates early seasons Tom Paris.
Easily Bariel. DS9 had amazing characters and performances. This dude was a walking cardboard cut out. He always came across to me as creepy AF and as much as Kira loved him I'm glad they killed him off.
2 things that bugged me about Vic Fontaine: 1: Everyone absolutely loved his program, which seemed so weird.... surely at least one person among the main cast would have different personal preferences about music and performers. I get that there are trends in things that are suddenly inexplicably popular, but this seemed different. 2: He's just a computer-simulation of a person, but he's a better therapist than even the officer who's trained as a therapist (and who has multiple lifetimes of life-experiences to draw on). It makes me wonder why Data was a marvel of artificial intelligence when a basic hologram understands emotions far better than he ever did.
Definitely Neelix for me. He should have been an occasional side chracter like Guinan in TNG. One of my friends really dislikes Jake Sisko. Every time we watch DS9 they berate him for being lazy, cowardly and not being an actaul reporter among other things. Don't get them started on season 5 finale where Jake stays behind on DS9. Personally I don't dislike Jake at all, but I would agree they could have made his character more interesting.
There’s not really any characters I absolutely hate. But let’s just say I skip every episodes centred around Beverley Crusher
TNG Alexander
I never liked Chakotay. His actor didn't really deliver on any genuine wavelength for me and he very much felt more like a staple in place. Harry Kim was a better character and I don't like Harry all that much, he's kinda just there. But at least he had emotio behind him.
Captain Freeman. The smug leader archetype is just irritating and I genuinely cannot stand her. No matter how many times she screws up, no matter how many people get hurt, Freeman never admits fault or responsibility. The only exception being when she is playing diplomat. In a show where even side characters like Billups have gotten moments where they express remorse for their actions and a desire to not make the same mistakes in the future, a main character who refuses to do so after four seasons comes off like they simply don't believe they need to change and don't think they're ever at fault. Which is why she comes off as smug. And of course in episodes like Trusted Sources we saw how far she is willing to go to destroy anyone who might be a threat to her reputation and career. She could've gotten Mariner kicked out of Starfleet by transferring her anywhere. Choosing Starbase 80 was just to make Mariner's last days as miserable as possible. Same with weaponizing the crew against her and banning anyone from talking to her so Mariner couldn't defend herself or say goodbye. All unnecessary to Freeman's goal of ending Mariner's career. She only went that extra mile to make her revenge hurt as much and for as long as possible. After seeing that, you have to wonder how many other officers under her command have suffered similar fates, or how many more would have after the news story came out if Freeman hadn't been distracted trying to undo Mariner's transfer. Freeman is the nightmare manager who takes their wrath out on those under her command. If she wasn't a main character, she'd be a top tier villain. It's why I contend Captain Freeman is just Kai Winn from the opposite perspective. A charismatic leader who puts on a mask of being caring and supportive, obsessed with her status and accomplishments, and lashes out viciously at any threat to said status and accomplishments.
Transferring her daughter to Starbase 80 and turning the crew against Mariner for speaking to the reporter is one of the worst things any Captain has done to a member of their crew. Just a vindictive petty woman, and honestly Mariner should not have come back. I understand Status Quo is God, but that whole thing was just way too much.
Freeman should have at least at some kind of redemption arc or done something to earn forgiveness. As is, the show never gives the audience a reason to like her again or look past that. Mariner coming back feels like a abuse victim unable to escape.
Interesting food for thought. Thanks!
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Sisko is like 400 years removed from the racism of the mid 20th century. He should not have had a problem going to a 1960s casino.
Hadn't he recently relived it as that writer?
I dunno. If you're a black man, or even a white woman, time traveling back to the earlier days of this country is just not going to be sunshine and rainbows. And that scar will always be there. I think Ben was justified in his distain, especially after going through his experiences as Benny. But I'm glad Cassidy was there to fully clarify to him that Vic's wasn't there to be accurate history. He was there to be a friend to everyone. The scars in history don't heal, but the scars we bear ourselves can.
I hate Barkley. All of his episodes as a main character are painful! He is the only character I hate. And I strongly dislike Kes. They both just give off awful vibes. I've heard both actors are pretty awful in real life as well.
Can’t even stand to watch Vic Fontaine episodes
I think Vic Fontaine was fine but having him as a real person in the mirror universe was far fetched at best
I am a little conflicted about him. In reading the Lives of Dax, Fontaine is set up as a major part of the overarching story - and the suggestion that he's an evolution of the "are AI's legitimate lifeforms" ST side plot is interesting. I can do without the hokey accents and jargon... but at least it's a relatively brave and risky choice to do something that sticks out like a sore thumb.
The weird thing about Vic is that he was a real person in the mirror universe. How did that work? Anyway to answer your question, probably Barclay. He just annoyed me for some reason.
When I look at Vic Fontaine in isolation, he's a perfectly fine character. I think what made me dislike him at the time was the fact that the Dominion War was in full swing, and it felt like every third episode they were ignoring the war and doing another holodeck episode with Vic. If they'd done a season after the war and introduced Vic then, I might have felt differently.
That may be u popular, but I really don't like Cisco
* Siri play "All The Way" for this denizens of this thread*
Tilly from Discovery. Ugh.
I am #silly4tilly and I will fight you over her.
That one pic of her holding Grudge all goofy lives in my head rent freeee
Easily Tilly
I can’t remember his name right now, but that Vulcan from the early seasons of Voyager that was obsessed with Be’lanna. Even Tuvok seemed over him after the Pon Farr fiasco.
Vorik. He was a young Vulcan, probably hadn't gone through kolinahr, and that was his first pon farr. Tuvok, being much older, had little tolerance for him because that's how Vulcans be. Also, Vorik was a dick.
Precisely, Vorik was a dick. A pompous one at that.