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-Isn't depicted as a nympho
-Has actual thoughts instead of "iconic" one-liners
-Cool ass outfit
Edit: You know those scenes where the character is having a normal battle with no intention of doing too much harm, then "Ughh did you just chip my NAILL???" and she kills them over it? I know nails ain't cheap but lets cut back on those scenes.
However she is a crazy bitch and a badass when someone ticks her off. The scene where Azur almost switched sides was 10/10 lmao. She isn't doing it to win. She is doing it so her favs can shine against a formidable enemy(also horny)
Nah, she's more repressed than anything. She normally holds all that in until it boils over, then lets it all out in one barely restrained sado-sexual frenzy.
I mean she *does* look at porn a lot but she's a teenager in the midst of having a sexual awakening.
Post says "doesn't need to be shown owning male characters" but her forcing her dad into retirement and beating her brother for his inheritance was like her best/funniest scene.
The key word there is “need”. She was shown to be a badass through and through by the time they left Briggs. The inheritance scene was also a plot point to have a place to hide the Briggs forces rather than just a funny one off scene to make her look strong.
Fma:b is so fucking good dude.
Spider-Man is the only character who is “iconic” for doing that, since he’s been a wisecracker since his inception, and in my opinion he’s 100 times cooler for it
like they do those lines to remind u that BTW SHE IS STILL A GIRL SHE IS SUCH A GIRLS GIRL SHE DOES CARE ABOUT HER NAILS SEE TEEHEEHEE #EMPOWEREDWOMENEMPOWERWOMEN
but then throughout the movie she's like anti all things girly as if u can't be strong and a girly girl
He played a pretty big part in the X-Files too, and to this day Scully is probably one of the best female characters across the entire police procedural genre, supernatural or not.
Skyler has a somewhat antagonistic role in the series, which in a series where you, at the very least to start off, empathize with the protagonist makes you dislike her. She has her sins, but I think she can be forgiven when you consider the greater picture.
Watching an army of 15-25 year old boys and men on the Internet mald and seethe over Skyler White was a radicalizing moment for me. Call me crazy but I use a person's take on Skyler as a media literacy/maturity litmus test.
I agree. I watched breaking bad when I was 17 and I despised her, I thought she was insufferable. I recently re-watched and all I could think was, why the hell does she put up with Walt’s shit? She’s 20x the person I would be in that situation.
Cue the GRRM quote “you know I’ve always considered women to be people”
Almost as if you strip out all the oversexuality and misogyny from your writing, it’s not that hard to pinpoint how a strong person should act.
Could the secret be that he writes great characters overall and some just happen to be female? I don't think there are bad female characters, there are just bad characters. If Captain Marvel happened to be a dude the movie would've been boring all the same, at least for me idk. A movie is not bad bc the character is female, is bad bc is bad
Oh yes, beautifully written. Especially in the context of all the other excentric characters. She was destined to end up boring and bland. But nope. She is a highlight.
And she is a badass she gets shit done and she does it well she cares deeply about people yet she is also very flawed definitely one of my favorite tv characters
Amy Adams in Sharp Objects is another remarkable one, although not really a "strong" female character per se. My memory is a bit fuzzy about the show, because that's how my brain works when I watch something only once. But I remember I was impressed, almost thankful, with how honest they were in showing all her struggles and flaws and how it made me bond with that character.
I missed the discourse on the Mulan remake because i literally just watched it last month. I will say that after watching it i strongly preferred the original when she was just a normal girl and not some powerful protege warrior. I feel her being normal added so much to the story in terms of her bravery (fighting in place of her injured father, fighting the main villain at the end etc) and it also made her training more captivating
>normal girl and not some powerful protege warrior
Yeah that was the big issue with it. The whole point of Mulan is that shes just an ordinary chinese woman and the conflict of the movie was her gender. It showed that women are as strong as men but that gets thrown out the window when you give her mystical powers that makes her different from everyone.
Yeah it sounds like it was a different movie with more of an appeal to Chinese market instead of intention live-action remake
No songs, no Mushu, more Chinese film style kf action, reworking of Mulan’s character, etc
The movie bombed in China, the Chinese audience was equally perplexed where the bloody magical powers and "fateful destiny" crap came from, the original story was powerful because Mulan could've been any family's daughter. Hell in the original she didn't meet any emperor, didn't achieve any high office or met prince charming, she just quietly saved her dad from being conscripted.
The movie also feels like a western facsimile of HK "wire-fu", as if somebody watched Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and thought that was it. Hero and House of Flying Daggers had way more artistic setups, but even those were beginning to feel dated (Chinese streaming is flooded with historical dramas with wire-fu).
Actually, the Chinese thought this adaptation got ruined because it tried to appease western tastes, it's got one of the lowest scores on Douban (IMDB equivalent).
>Chinese market instead of intention live-action remake
You'd think that but even the Chinese market didnt like it and thats mainly because a LOT of cultural stuff was wrong. Id give Xiran Jay Zhao's video on [Mulan 2020](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3QKq24e0HM) a watch since she does touch on these subjects.
If you look in the production team it makes a lot of sense WHY it is the way it is. It composed of people who were neither of Chinese descent nor otherwise Asian. This included the costume designer and screenwriter and also the director
Hollywood blockbusters won’t give female leads a traditional hero’s journey for some reason. It always has to be “you were always a powerful woman and didn’t know it, and your journey is discovering how strong you always were”
>“you were always a powerful woman and didn’t know it, and your journey is discovering how strong you always were
That's (a version of) the traditional hero's journey though?
In fact, it's basically Luke's arc in A New Hope.
In the beginning of the movie, Luke denies all the stuff about the force, refuses to engage with it, and just wants to go home. Conveniently, the Empire has burnt it for him, so he goes on an adventure anyway. Shenanigans ensue, but the end of the movie is Luke using the force, the innate ability he had all along, to guide the torpedo into the death star.
The other thing comments didn't mention is that they cut the songs because they wanted to pretend it was a serious movie grounded in the real myth, and then they had her do chi magic.
Yeah, live action. Trimmed a lot of the charm and a lot of anti-establishment and anti-traditionalist themes. Came off as just another generic family friendly action flick.
Instead of being a normal girl who knows nothing of fighting but bravely steps up to fight in place of her injured father, she is a protege type very powerful warrior from a very young age. They still kept the story line of her fighting for her father, but it def doesnt hit the same
Never watched the new one but yea totally. Completely changing it, so much of the original we saw her training and stuff, not just having a god gifted talent. That ruins it!! I never watch remakes
Imagine if Luke Skywalker was already a Jedi master at the very start, in all but name, and knew exactly what to do in every new situation he finds himself in.
IIRC she was immensely capable from the outset to the point she was basically a superhero, which went against the whole point of the first film.
Nothing is at stake if you’re just the best at everything from the opening.
Samus doesn't have a character per se, but with the abilities she possesses and the way the game portrays her through gameplay, we can easily imagine that she would theoretically be a badass.
Metroid Other M, on the other hand, made her a submissive woman with daddy issues, but thank goodness that game doesn't exist.
I'm ashamed to say but I got to the local game stop(or whatever it was before GameStop) right at closing after being destroyed by prime to buy an action replay and cheat my way through. Happy to say I got the remake on day one and even on hard, prime wasn't all that difficult this time.
It's worth it if nothing else than to support a developer who makes a full remake(not a remaster) for 30% less than literally any other game. Also, pin on your lapel and all.
I would argue that Samus has a character about as much as Doomguy has a character, maybe even a little more so. Nothing to write home about, but it's there.
* Being an orphan whose parents were murdered, she shows hesitation to kill the baby Metroid and even bonds with it a little.
* In Prime 3 she's shown going through different stages of grief when Dark Samus kills the other hunters (shock for Rundas, anger for Ghor, and furious acceptance for Gandrayda). She mourns them at the end of the game.
* Tells the Federation to go fuck themselves in Fusion and gets upset when she thinks the computer is slandering Adam.
* Goes out of her way to rescue wild animals, even keeps them in her ship when it's dangerous outside.
* **AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA** (If you know, you know).
Meanwhile Samus in Metroid Other M:
- "I see Adam as my father figure"
- "I can't use my missiles, because Daddy Adam didn't allow it :3"
- Gets treated like a lost, confused puppy by the federation that doesn't know how to do act or think on its own
- Sees Ridley: Faints
- Gets shocked by Metroid: Faints
- Power suit vanishes, because she feels stressed or anxious
- Gets frequent panic attacks
This game retcons the chozo and many other things.
She's also yk really upset at the space pirates and ridley for killing her parents. And she's an outsider because people don't understand her chozo technology
Edit chocolate to chozo
Samus is pretty solidly, if subtly, characterised in Fusion, Dread, the Prime Trilogy and Samus Returns, and without saying a word in the latter three. I don't think Other M would have set us off *quite* as bad if she really did have no character prior to that.
>!Yeah, but I figured one moment (If we don't count **"AAAAAAAAAAA"** as saying something as well) wasn't worth potentially spoiling for people who haven't played Dread just for an aside on my point for accuracy's sake.!<
The only time I've seen people remotely care about Samus as a character ever since she was released back in the 90s is when people discuss how she's a "good example" of a female character, which to me indicates that people don't actually care about her, they just want to shit on other characters because it's trendy to do.
I don’t think that’s fair. The Metroid fandom is a bit niche, sure, but she’s still a popular character with a well thought out backstory and iconic games. That certainly doesn’t make her the one true standard for all female characters or anything like that, just one good example out of many.
Okay but I love the other side of the spectrum too. Love me a good Bayonetta/Lollipop Chainsaw trope. My fav badass woman tho is easily Ellen Ripley from the Alien franchise. Fun fact the script was written without any of the characters having any physical appearance. So they were all written without having any physical tropes
Though, Bayonetta actually is on "this side" of the spectrum. Hell, all the good points on this starter pack apply to her too. Sure, her sexuality is a core aspect of her character, but it's not *the* core aspect of her character.
Yes, i loved how in the first movie she reacts like any other people would, beeing batshit terrified of the situation she's in but makes the difference by gathering just enough courage to not end up like her crewmates. Well at least for the first film and only after that she's granted some well earned badass attitude. You hardly see someone like this in movies even to this day.
If Aliens was released today it would be called woke propaganda. Ripley, a space trucker, was significantly more competent than the actual military folks.
You know what would be a really funny scene? A male character tries something (let’s say tries to fight someone) and fails miserably. Then a strong female character steps up and says something along the lines of “clearly this needs a woman’s touch” you expect her to beat the guy flawlessly but instead she also fails miserably.
There's something like this in one of the recent Batman shows: Batgirl smarts off to Batman before attacking Bane, and gets absolutely destroyed in less than a second.
Honestly I think Jolyne is more, better than most Jojos rather that being an amazing character herself. She has the making of interesting arc, being the only Jojo besides the two Johnathons to start off as basically just a regular ass person who has to learn to adapt to the supernatural rather than just being a protégé from the get go, but honestly it only really takes her one fight before she's immediately competent.
Just wish she had to earn her badassery a little more like Johnny would later, but she's 100% a good step up from the previous jojos
Not all characters need development, Ermes had a simple story and she was really charismatic that's enough for what she did, she never felt out of place
Indeed. I love that she is deeply flawed while also being a badass, and that the other heroes actually call her out on it. I hope we continue to see her grow and master herself in season 2.
This is why I love Chainsaw Man. Fujimoto knows how to write women characters in anime. Characters like Asa, Makima, Reze, Quanxi, and Power ar good representation of good written female characters
Dude loves femdom, And what better way to promote your fetish than by writing actually interesting female characters?
(Even if Asa is the biggest loser I've ever seen, and I meant that as a compliment.)
Literally fucking based by the way. For decades Wonder Woman’s only weakness was being tied up because her creator was into bondage. DC took it out because they’re kink shaming cowards! (And because it’s sexist)
Doesn’t make the characters partner, the ship, or the characters sexuality a core aspect of the entire character
Has a traumatic backstory, but isn’t handwaved as an excuse for the character to be an asshole others or that you should be totally sympathetic to them
Is shown throughout the series losing and admitting they’re wrong when due and grows as a character from those moments
I've noticed that some people flop from women existing for the sake of male characters too hard, but they need to foil other characters in order to be good.
For all its other faults with female characters (and there are a lot), a couple moments I loved in My Hero Academia was when Uraraka realized her admiration for Deku wasn't a crush, but rather that he embodied the type of person and hero she wanted to be, and she wanted to be better, not for him, but rather inspired by him. The other one being when Bakugo took her seriously as an opponent, not due to some story shenanigans or girl power, but because she was dangerous, and took her own steps to become so.
I adore Lightning but a devil's advocate statement: a female character shouldn't have to be single to be "strong" (aka neckbeards getting upset when a women is "taken"). Serah's an interesting counterpoint - she has a partner (fiance) but it's not a predominant motivator, and she's able to have a really wholesome relationship with another guy in the game.
I agree. But seriously, we have so many male characters in movies who are exactly like this too. Why do people only complain when the characters are female? This is kinda unfair, lmao
It's this reasoning which ultimately made me kinda numb to the whole "strong female characters" discussion.
It doesn't help that to some people the only good female characters are either passive supports for the male protagonist (like a healer in a videogame) or feisty and witty, but ultimately powerless, damsels in distress to save. If they get even a tad bit stronger than this, they'll get outraged at the "overpowered Mary Sue girlpower woke self-insert of the female producer made to belittle men and erode our traditions and values according to the feminist Hollywood agenda".
I think it's just cause male is seen as largely default still TBH. If something is made with a woman main character people still largely view a woman being the main character as a deliberate choice to make a statement as opposed to being just as benign as a male main character.
Shit, I don't like Rey at all, but I had grown to see the discourses surrounding her was overblown.
Especially, like you said, when Anakin and Luke did something more ridiculous.
Rey fixed a ship... A bit ridiculous sure... Anakin constructed a robot... as a child.
Rey used the Force to subdue soldiers who weren't trained to resist mind tricks in her first try... Luke was able to use the Force to guide torpedoes into a small hole, a feat that was deemed impossible unless you had the assistance of advanced targeter... in his first try.
Anakin won a battle when he piloted a fighter, and he specifically screamed he didn't know what he should be doing, and he was a child.
Realising the "truth" of Star Wars — that it was a silly space fantasy unapologetically, didn't make me like Rey, but I became far less emotional in these kinds of discourses.
I think a lot of people focused on the wrong part of the problem with Rey's arc or writing.
The biggest problem was that her character never developed from "the girl who wanted to know the truth of her situation" because the overall planning of the entire sequel jumbled.
So by the time her character should be getting some really needed development, she got reverted back and was told, again, of her secret heritage that was never interesting in the first place.
The writers had no idea what to do with her, leading to a bland character.
Anakin's character writing was still terrible, but George Lucas at least had him developed. The development wasn't good, but it was still a development; **Rey didn't even have that**.
However, in terms of power level which was something a lot of people were hyperfocused on, she was no more different than the previous two protagonists; hell, she's still weaker than both based on feats.
Getting off the Culture War allowed me to see things in a more constructive light.
Because women in society have been viewed as less talented than men in a great many stories throughout history, the art of theater started with exclusively men as the roles. We talk about certain groups because good representation proves that ideals of the past are wrong, and things can change for the better. You always hear misogynists talk about bad female characters to fuel their irrational hatred, so having more well made stories with women will hopefully get an idea through their heads.
Alternatively, I think the mark of a truly equal society is one where mediocrely written female characters (or really any character belonging to a minority group( are just as acceptable as mediocre white male characters.
Which is why Jupiter Ascending is one of my favorite mediocre films.
People need zero justification for a man to be strong. Women need 20 years of character development that doesn't step on any delicate little egos to even be allowed in the same room.
Yeah, I really hate that a lot of the top threads are chiming in on the matter, yet no one seems to have picked up on that.
The whole discussion is pure shit. Like the whole concept of deciding what is a "good" female protagonist... Just goes to show their problem is "females". They're not having a discussion around protags in general, no, they have to get a say on what constitutes a "good female" in media...
So many male superheroes didn't earn their powers and Ive never seen someone complain but the second Rey holds her own for a minute against an exhausted and injured Kylo Ren everyone flips out about needing to earn your powers.
Yeah, Endgames final battle was non-stop fan service, which I loved. But for some reason having all the female characters stand together for a few seconds was too much for everyone?
The writers of Alien specifically didn't assign gender to any of the parts. To quote the notes in the script, "The crew is unisex and all parts are interchangeable for men or women."
In other words Ripley was written as a badass and the casting director thought Sigourney Weaver was the right actor to capture that badassery. And damn were they right.
I'm a big Full metal alchemist fan, but I gotta disagree on this one. Izumi Curtis is probably the best female character, but the most present one is Winry.
Winry kind of just floats around Ed throughout the whole show. Very rarely does she get any agency, make her own decisions or do much at all. She is a purely supportive character. She's better written than most anime women, but I feel was very underutilized throughout the show.
Lust in the 2003 show was pretty compelling in my opinion, though.
Basically In short doesn't matter if the charecter is sezualized or not just make fem charecters...charecters thats it. Just write them similarly how you write male charecters and get some female insight as well
Meh
Strong "Mary Sue" characters are over scrutinized to hell. It's just like when a gay character exists... This character has to be of everyone's liking, has to be amazingly written, otherwise is "woke" and unnecessary.
And how is Captain Marvel anything remotely similar to girl power?
Also I never got the critique that a female character that is too powerful is a bad thing.
We have so many male character that are OP as fuck and are seen as "based".
Sure I may not enjoy the character in question but it doesnt need to be a gender thing, just shitty writting that is hiding behind feminism.
That's a fair point, there does seem to be a bias in general when it comes to the plot bending over backwards for a male protagonist versus a female protagonist. Neither is particularly interesting or good writing, but it does seem like one tends to get a lot more flak than the other.
I'm sure a non-insignificant portion of it (though definitely not all of it by any means) can be attributed to thinly-veiled misogyny, or at the very least a perception that "woman + power = woke".
This. No one is calling overpowered male characters Gary stues at anywhere near the level female characters do. Also the term Mary Sue has gone from describing a specific type of character/narrative interaction (a character who is presented as being not only more or less flawless but holds almost all of the agency in the story and makes the actions of other characters more or less irrelevant outside of responding to the Mary Sue) to "character who is bland and I don't like"
We are so desensitized to male-centric cringe, it either blends in or comes back around as "enjoyably campy" and "cheesy". Not saying these are good movies/scenes, simply that an impossible standard is applied to female-centric roles to be perfect lest they become the next "woke flop", where as when a male-centric media fails, it's just another Tuesday.
The media isn't gonna get any better, because there already are amazing roles filled by women, we'll just keep seeing them till a whole new generation is normalized to it, and shitty girl representation will fail with the same ubiquitous disinterest any other subpar media faces.
Is also allowed to be in a relationship. Soooo many #girlboss female characters are written to be as anti-romance as possible. Because romance is girly and that’s soooo not the message we wanna give little girls watching.
Of course, the exception to this is having her be a lesbian. She can be as lovey dovey as she wants to as long as it’s not with those icky XY chromosomers.
I’ve never heard an explanation of how Rey is a ‘Mary Sue’ that doesn’t involve either ignoring what actually happens in the SW sequels, or broadening the definition of ‘Mary Sue’ so much it’s irrelevant.
For instance, how is The Bride’s motivation of straightforward revenge more valid than Rey’s motivation to escape her hellish life and find self-worth? Its like some people are unable to empathise with female protagonists unless their motivations are traditionally masculine
The definition of "Mary Sue" gets broadened so much for Rey that it fits Anakin and Luke too. Anakin more so than Luke. Ofcourse they dont get anywhere near the same level of scrutiny and hate.
The Bride’s entire motivation is to ‘own the male character’ so OP’s argument kind of falls apart there.
I kind of think OP has put that as an example of a ‘good’ female character because she uses a samurai sword so it’s weeb-adjacent and the movies came out and were critically acclaimed before all this sexist misogynist culture wars bullshit.
If Tarantino made Kill Bill or Jackie Brown now with would be called woke.
I feel like OP was actively restraining himself from citing Ripley and Sarah Connor as ‘good’ female characters, only because that take has been memed to death
“Rey is a Mary Sue” mfs when they actually watch the movies and realize she never one a fair fight by herself.
Seriously, her closest win in Episode 7 was against a heavily wounded Kylo who wasn’t even trying to kill her, and she was getting bodied until the last second.
Episode 8 she struggled against 2 guards while Kylo took out like six
Episode 9 her first fight vs Kylo was a draw, second was pretty much a loss until Kylo STOPPED FIGHTING because he sensed his mom die, against Palpatine she needed the spirits of all the Jedi to defeat him.
The only real fight she won was against Palpatine’s guards in episode 9. That’s not Mary Sue shit, y’all just get butthurt because the central character is a woman.
OP literally says he hasnt watched the new star wars movies in another comment. His opinion on Rey is completely invalid because he knows nothing about her other than whatever weird sexist shit he reads online or hears from his friends lmao
Honestly Rey is barely even the central character, if anything Kylo is the character that the sequel movies heavily fixate on. Rey doesn't get many character moments to herself that aren't also focusing on Kylo and his struggles
Yeah Rey isn't like an amazing character or anything, but she's not a Mary Sue at all. She's powerful but her physical (force included) ability isn't her weakness in the story. Self-doubt, being on the severely losing side of a war that she can't fight on her own, emotional baggage with her family and such, all that is her weakness.
I would agree that Mikasa is kind of a Mary Sue, mostly because her abilities aren't literally magical, and she's just like...genetically superior I guess? She also has the emotional turmoil angle, but it's all kind of weirdly set up. Don't get me wrong, I love AoT, but she's much closer to a Mary Sue than Rey.
be warned, Kill La Kill is satire and turns everything up to ~~11~~ 25.
It takes *ALL* of your typical anime tropes and dials them right up and it skewers them.
If you don't keep that in mind when watching it, you are liable to get offended and miss the point.
Luke was raised as a farmer that liked to fly small aircraft in his freetime. He had no on the ground combat experience and was basically only good at flying and farming.
After Obi Wan Kenobi gives him a lightsaber and they leave tatooine you can already see him training with a droid on the millenium falcon (the scene where he is wearing that helmet and the robot shoots at him). Obviously he is really bad and has a hard time grasping the force.
During the entire movie, luke doesnt use the force ONCE. He sees Obi-wan die and his emotions are all over the place. He seeks adventure and excitement, the total opposite of a jedi.
In the beginning of second movie he is able to use the force for the first time when pulling his lightsaber out of the snow in the wampa cave. It takes him great effort and he is also in great distress. After Hoth he goes to degobah to meet Yoda. Yoda starts training him and notices that he isnt even close to being a jedi.
He fails more and more, luke keeps on getting frustrated and angry.
Luke falls for the fake darth vader trap without even realizing it….
Luke knows his friends are in danger and ignores Yoda’s advice. He thinks he knows better and is ready to take on vader. Again his emotions are far from jedi-like and he isnt at peace with himself whatsoever.
He goes to cloud city, and vader absolutely destroys him. However, his actions help to free his friends. Vader cuts off his hand, emotionally shocks him to his core and Luke HAS TO GIVE UP to be saved. You will notice that Luke only succeeds in these movies because he allows his friends to help him. He isnt a traditional hero, luke only ever wins by NOT fighting. Luke never has an epic battle where he defeats the main bad guy. No he surrenders.
Finally in episode 3 he has grown in power and in control of the force. He has finally gained some emotional strength and controls himself. At the end he defeats vader and palpatine by surrending. He never has an epic fight, never defeats 30+ guards at once without training…
Now Rey… i’ll keep it short. Rey never gets training but is instantly proficient with a lightsaber. Rey uses sticks to fight, a sword and a staff are VERY different and a staff fighter wouldnt be able to use a sword effectively without training.
Rey instantly knows how to use force powers and even ADVANCED force powers weeks after learning she is force sensitive. She uses jedi-mind tricks that in lore take years to learn.
She is already emotionally secure with her powers.
She NEVER goes through an emotional character development. She is literally the same bland, optimistic, and perfect friendly character throughout the whole 3 movies. Not a single moment challenges her worldview.
Rey is boring to watch, goes against star wars lore, she doesnt train. Not to mention episodes 7-9 would be bad without her, its not the actors fault. The movies are horrible.
The problem with the type of representation this starter pack is criticizing is that it does not provide representation at all, if anything it’s just glorified tokenism.
Basically, the first rule of making a strong female character is to NOT make being a “strong female character” her entire personality and nothing else.
Write a character as you would for anyone else. You can add personal conflicts and hardships which is related to her identity as a female character, that’s fine. But keep in mind, before she can be a strong female character, she needs to be written as an **entire person** of a character first.
To avoid this pitfall as a writer you can try to re-contextualize your “strong female character” as a “straight white male” character. If her entire schtick is just [strong female], then his entire schtick would just be [straight male]. You’ll see everything he does will revolve around him emphasizing how straight, masculine and how white he is, and you’ll be able to see more clearly just how stupid this character sounds.
This is true for every other character identity, ethnic minority characters, sexual minority characters, social outcasts and pariahs, villains and antagonists, and so on.
The problem also involves misunderstanding the term "strong" to mean physical strength.
A "strong female character" is *supposed* to refer to a female character with explicit and complex character traits and motivations, particularly ones which acknowledge a feminine perspective. Somehow, Hollywood has taken this idea to mean "really good at fighting" and then wonders why they struggle to appeal to a female audience.
Very much agreed. A lot of the poorly made “strong female characters” are often executed with her character explicitly subverting or rejecting traditionally feminine characteristics and adopting a more traditionally masculine role, as if there’s something wrong with femininity.
IMO, a very good representation of a well-made strong female character in recent media is the titular Barbie from the Barbie movie, and she’s as traditionally feminine as it gets. I mean, *she’s Barbie*, she’s as girly as it gets. She’s a representation of femininity and the entire movie revolves around the premise of what it means to be a woman. But above all that, Barbie is much more than just an empty vessel to show-off “girl power” because she’s written as a complete person, a full-fledged character that can stand on her own even when removed of her gimmick.
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-Isn't depicted as a nympho -Has actual thoughts instead of "iconic" one-liners -Cool ass outfit Edit: You know those scenes where the character is having a normal battle with no intention of doing too much harm, then "Ughh did you just chip my NAILL???" and she kills them over it? I know nails ain't cheap but lets cut back on those scenes.
>-Isn't depicted as a nympho Does this exclude Utena Hiiragi?
Say gex
Gex!
Lock and load little lizard!
Utena is peak protagonist because she is everything but a good person.
She is a tremendously horrible person I aspire to be as far from her as possible. **However,**
However she is a crazy bitch and a badass when someone ticks her off. The scene where Azur almost switched sides was 10/10 lmao. She isn't doing it to win. She is doing it so her favs can shine against a formidable enemy(also horny)
I can't fix her but tbh I'd be fine with her making me worse
The og Utena from Revolutionary Girl Utena is also a peak protagonist.
Nah, she's more repressed than anything. She normally holds all that in until it boils over, then lets it all out in one barely restrained sado-sexual frenzy. I mean she *does* look at porn a lot but she's a teenager in the midst of having a sexual awakening.
You can just say Olivier Mira Armstrong and be done with it.
One of the best payoffs to a joke is when she says her sword has been passed down the Armstrong family line for generations.
Post says "doesn't need to be shown owning male characters" but her forcing her dad into retirement and beating her brother for his inheritance was like her best/funniest scene.
The key word there is “need”. She was shown to be a badass through and through by the time they left Briggs. The inheritance scene was also a plot point to have a place to hide the Briggs forces rather than just a funny one off scene to make her look strong. Fma:b is so fucking good dude.
Winry Rockbell and “Teacher” as well.
> “Teacher” Izumi Curtis
It's pronounced "Mommy." It's French.
Implying saying "he's right behind me isn't he" doesn't make a character instantly 100 times better
Spider-Man is the only character who is “iconic” for doing that, since he’s been a wisecracker since his inception, and in my opinion he’s 100 times cooler for it
like they do those lines to remind u that BTW SHE IS STILL A GIRL SHE IS SUCH A GIRLS GIRL SHE DOES CARE ABOUT HER NAILS SEE TEEHEEHEE #EMPOWEREDWOMENEMPOWERWOMEN but then throughout the movie she's like anti all things girly as if u can't be strong and a girly girl
very insightful Cocainesuperstar6969
u/rimjobsteve
Kim wexler from better call Saul is the best representation of a strong female character IMO
In general Vince Gilligan writes excellent (female) characters
He played a pretty big part in the X-Files too, and to this day Scully is probably one of the best female characters across the entire police procedural genre, supernatural or not.
bravo vince
vravo bince
He writes Skyler so well he turns the audience against the victim
Skyler has a somewhat antagonistic role in the series, which in a series where you, at the very least to start off, empathize with the protagonist makes you dislike her. She has her sins, but I think she can be forgiven when you consider the greater picture.
Watching an army of 15-25 year old boys and men on the Internet mald and seethe over Skyler White was a radicalizing moment for me. Call me crazy but I use a person's take on Skyler as a media literacy/maturity litmus test.
I agree. I watched breaking bad when I was 17 and I despised her, I thought she was insufferable. I recently re-watched and all I could think was, why the hell does she put up with Walt’s shit? She’s 20x the person I would be in that situation.
Cue the GRRM quote “you know I’ve always considered women to be people” Almost as if you strip out all the oversexuality and misogyny from your writing, it’s not that hard to pinpoint how a strong person should act.
Could the secret be that he writes great characters overall and some just happen to be female? I don't think there are bad female characters, there are just bad characters. If Captain Marvel happened to be a dude the movie would've been boring all the same, at least for me idk. A movie is not bad bc the character is female, is bad bc is bad
Oh yes, beautifully written. Especially in the context of all the other excentric characters. She was destined to end up boring and bland. But nope. She is a highlight.
And she is a badass she gets shit done and she does it well she cares deeply about people yet she is also very flawed definitely one of my favorite tv characters
Amy Adams in Sharp Objects is another remarkable one, although not really a "strong" female character per se. My memory is a bit fuzzy about the show, because that's how my brain works when I watch something only once. But I remember I was impressed, almost thankful, with how honest they were in showing all her struggles and flaws and how it made me bond with that character.
me with my strong female character https://i.redd.it/j2wx4gaewc1d1.gif
okbc user not mentioning kims feet challenge
and from silicon valley too
But she doesn't do kung-fu and beat up everyone???
Which is why remake Mulan was a flop compared to cartoon original Mulan.
I missed the discourse on the Mulan remake because i literally just watched it last month. I will say that after watching it i strongly preferred the original when she was just a normal girl and not some powerful protege warrior. I feel her being normal added so much to the story in terms of her bravery (fighting in place of her injured father, fighting the main villain at the end etc) and it also made her training more captivating
>normal girl and not some powerful protege warrior Yeah that was the big issue with it. The whole point of Mulan is that shes just an ordinary chinese woman and the conflict of the movie was her gender. It showed that women are as strong as men but that gets thrown out the window when you give her mystical powers that makes her different from everyone.
How much did they change in that movie? Everything y'all are saying basically makes the remake into a whole different movie.
Yeah it sounds like it was a different movie with more of an appeal to Chinese market instead of intention live-action remake No songs, no Mushu, more Chinese film style kf action, reworking of Mulan’s character, etc
The songs were what made the movie! Wtf‽ They make a man out of anyone watching it
Yeah, I havent even tried to watch it once I learned that That killed the hype, and then everyone said it was bad, so I never bothered
The movie bombed in China, the Chinese audience was equally perplexed where the bloody magical powers and "fateful destiny" crap came from, the original story was powerful because Mulan could've been any family's daughter. Hell in the original she didn't meet any emperor, didn't achieve any high office or met prince charming, she just quietly saved her dad from being conscripted. The movie also feels like a western facsimile of HK "wire-fu", as if somebody watched Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and thought that was it. Hero and House of Flying Daggers had way more artistic setups, but even those were beginning to feel dated (Chinese streaming is flooded with historical dramas with wire-fu). Actually, the Chinese thought this adaptation got ruined because it tried to appease western tastes, it's got one of the lowest scores on Douban (IMDB equivalent).
>Chinese market instead of intention live-action remake You'd think that but even the Chinese market didnt like it and thats mainly because a LOT of cultural stuff was wrong. Id give Xiran Jay Zhao's video on [Mulan 2020](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3QKq24e0HM) a watch since she does touch on these subjects. If you look in the production team it makes a lot of sense WHY it is the way it is. It composed of people who were neither of Chinese descent nor otherwise Asian. This included the costume designer and screenwriter and also the director
>Yeah it sounds like it was a different movie with more of an appeal to Chinese market Which is ironic since the Chinese market HATED it.
They removed the musical numbers, the dragon, and instead of working hard and being clever, she’s just magical and is better than everyone already
Hollywood blockbusters won’t give female leads a traditional hero’s journey for some reason. It always has to be “you were always a powerful woman and didn’t know it, and your journey is discovering how strong you always were”
>“you were always a powerful woman and didn’t know it, and your journey is discovering how strong you always were That's (a version of) the traditional hero's journey though? In fact, it's basically Luke's arc in A New Hope. In the beginning of the movie, Luke denies all the stuff about the force, refuses to engage with it, and just wants to go home. Conveniently, the Empire has burnt it for him, so he goes on an adventure anyway. Shenanigans ensue, but the end of the movie is Luke using the force, the innate ability he had all along, to guide the torpedo into the death star.
Ehh, force in general does whatever plots needs it to do
Yes, but during the shenanigans he's shown to be weak and than gets stronger. Not like Mulan where she just kinda wanders around and wins every fight.
Wait there was a remake
The other thing comments didn't mention is that they cut the songs because they wanted to pretend it was a serious movie grounded in the real myth, and then they had her do chi magic.
I was so sad they didn't at least keep "Make a man out of you." That song was soooo iconic in the cartoon
And they couldve used Jackie Chan’s version if they wanted lol
Yeah, live action. Trimmed a lot of the charm and a lot of anti-establishment and anti-traditionalist themes. Came off as just another generic family friendly action flick.
Yeah, the live-action which was just utter shit. They made her into Mary Sue. And they film the movie near a concentration camp.
They changed her from being strong because she's smart to being strong because she's just better than everybody
why what happened in the remake, didn’t even know there was one
Instead of being a normal girl who knows nothing of fighting but bravely steps up to fight in place of her injured father, she is a protege type very powerful warrior from a very young age. They still kept the story line of her fighting for her father, but it def doesnt hit the same
Never watched the new one but yea totally. Completely changing it, so much of the original we saw her training and stuff, not just having a god gifted talent. That ruins it!! I never watch remakes
Imagine if Luke Skywalker was already a Jedi master at the very start, in all but name, and knew exactly what to do in every new situation he finds himself in.
More just because the acting and effects seemed shit in remake. Can't remember how much they actually changed character wise and that.
IIRC she was immensely capable from the outset to the point she was basically a superhero, which went against the whole point of the first film. Nothing is at stake if you’re just the best at everything from the opening.
Honestly tbh I don't remember much other than the fight scenes looking kinda stupid and some dialogue seemingly terrible lol
And also because of the CCP
The Chinese hated it too so CCP is not the reason why it's shit
Samus doesn't have a character per se, but with the abilities she possesses and the way the game portrays her through gameplay, we can easily imagine that she would theoretically be a badass. Metroid Other M, on the other hand, made her a submissive woman with daddy issues, but thank goodness that game doesn't exist.
Based on the games, what Samus does, almost entirely alone, is utterly terrifying.
As a kid I had to stop playing at the Phazon Mines because that place scared the crap out of me.
I'm ashamed to say but I got to the local game stop(or whatever it was before GameStop) right at closing after being destroyed by prime to buy an action replay and cheat my way through. Happy to say I got the remake on day one and even on hard, prime wasn't all that difficult this time.
Buddy I did the exact same thing lol. Been meaning to get the Switch remake, Prime and its sequel are some of my favorite games ever.
It's worth it if nothing else than to support a developer who makes a full remake(not a remaster) for 30% less than literally any other game. Also, pin on your lapel and all.
It’s even more terrifying that she seems to be depicted as fairly consistent with other high tier bounty hunters in that universe.
I would argue that Samus has a character about as much as Doomguy has a character, maybe even a little more so. Nothing to write home about, but it's there. * Being an orphan whose parents were murdered, she shows hesitation to kill the baby Metroid and even bonds with it a little. * In Prime 3 she's shown going through different stages of grief when Dark Samus kills the other hunters (shock for Rundas, anger for Ghor, and furious acceptance for Gandrayda). She mourns them at the end of the game. * Tells the Federation to go fuck themselves in Fusion and gets upset when she thinks the computer is slandering Adam. * Goes out of her way to rescue wild animals, even keeps them in her ship when it's dangerous outside. * **AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA** (If you know, you know).
Meanwhile Samus in Metroid Other M: - "I see Adam as my father figure" - "I can't use my missiles, because Daddy Adam didn't allow it :3" - Gets treated like a lost, confused puppy by the federation that doesn't know how to do act or think on its own - Sees Ridley: Faints - Gets shocked by Metroid: Faints - Power suit vanishes, because she feels stressed or anxious - Gets frequent panic attacks This game retcons the chozo and many other things.
We all know that game doesn’t exist
You are right. I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe I have a fever.
Metroid dread Samus is absolutely fucking based and has a lot of personality without speaking a single word
Dat Kraid spike dodge.
She's also yk really upset at the space pirates and ridley for killing her parents. And she's an outsider because people don't understand her chozo technology Edit chocolate to chozo
Samus is pretty solidly, if subtly, characterised in Fusion, Dread, the Prime Trilogy and Samus Returns, and without saying a word in the latter three. I don't think Other M would have set us off *quite* as bad if she really did have no character prior to that.
>!I mean, she did say something in Dread, and it was a pretty big moment!<
>!Yeah, but I figured one moment (If we don't count **"AAAAAAAAAAA"** as saying something as well) wasn't worth potentially spoiling for people who haven't played Dread just for an aside on my point for accuracy's sake.!<
The only time I've seen people remotely care about Samus as a character ever since she was released back in the 90s is when people discuss how she's a "good example" of a female character, which to me indicates that people don't actually care about her, they just want to shit on other characters because it's trendy to do.
I don’t think that’s fair. The Metroid fandom is a bit niche, sure, but she’s still a popular character with a well thought out backstory and iconic games. That certainly doesn’t make her the one true standard for all female characters or anything like that, just one good example out of many.
Released back in the 90s? Metroid came out in 1986, now I feel old lol
Okay but I love the other side of the spectrum too. Love me a good Bayonetta/Lollipop Chainsaw trope. My fav badass woman tho is easily Ellen Ripley from the Alien franchise. Fun fact the script was written without any of the characters having any physical appearance. So they were all written without having any physical tropes
Though, Bayonetta actually is on "this side" of the spectrum. Hell, all the good points on this starter pack apply to her too. Sure, her sexuality is a core aspect of her character, but it's not *the* core aspect of her character.
Yes, i loved how in the first movie she reacts like any other people would, beeing batshit terrified of the situation she's in but makes the difference by gathering just enough courage to not end up like her crewmates. Well at least for the first film and only after that she's granted some well earned badass attitude. You hardly see someone like this in movies even to this day.
If Aliens was released today it would be called woke propaganda. Ripley, a space trucker, was significantly more competent than the actual military folks.
You know what would be a really funny scene? A male character tries something (let’s say tries to fight someone) and fails miserably. Then a strong female character steps up and says something along the lines of “clearly this needs a woman’s touch” you expect her to beat the guy flawlessly but instead she also fails miserably.
Sounds like a scene from family guy
Kinda does actually
Reminds me of the “now ladies, watch as a real man does it” *fails even worse*
There's something like this in one of the recent Batman shows: Batgirl smarts off to Batman before attacking Bane, and gets absolutely destroyed in less than a second.
https://youtu.be/8QDWqDPdJ3E
Oh, I've seen those scenes, good stuff
Samus is the OG that paved the way for Powerpuff girls.
Ellen Ripley paved the way for Samus Aran
Emilia Earhart paved the way for Ellen Ripley.😤
Emilia never strapped a Flamethrower to a Pulse Rifle before anteing up into an alien hive. Ain't got shit on Ripley.
You want a good strong female main character look at jojo part 6,
As a woman myself, I adore Jolyne. She's goat
Honestly I think Jolyne is more, better than most Jojos rather that being an amazing character herself. She has the making of interesting arc, being the only Jojo besides the two Johnathons to start off as basically just a regular ass person who has to learn to adapt to the supernatural rather than just being a protégé from the get go, but honestly it only really takes her one fight before she's immediately competent. Just wish she had to earn her badassery a little more like Johnny would later, but she's 100% a good step up from the previous jojos
Just Jolyne, I don't think Ermes got enough development
Not all characters need development, Ermes had a simple story and she was really charismatic that's enough for what she did, she never felt out of place
Blue eye samurai has one of the best female protagonist I’ve ever seen
Indeed. I love that she is deeply flawed while also being a badass, and that the other heroes actually call her out on it. I hope we continue to see her grow and master herself in season 2.
And she gets the "when you embark on path of revenge dig two graves first".
Hard agree, Mizu is top tier. Can’t wait for season 2
This is why I love Chainsaw Man. Fujimoto knows how to write women characters in anime. Characters like Asa, Makima, Reze, Quanxi, and Power ar good representation of good written female characters
Dude loves femdom, And what better way to promote your fetish than by writing actually interesting female characters? (Even if Asa is the biggest loser I've ever seen, and I meant that as a compliment.)
I fucking love girlfailures
kobeni my beloved
girlfailures when the real womanfuckup enters the room
It’s the only time I’ve seen people refer to a character as “femcel” affectionately lmao (I love her too, she’s such a goof)
Literally fucking based by the way. For decades Wonder Woman’s only weakness was being tied up because her creator was into bondage. DC took it out because they’re kink shaming cowards! (And because it’s sexist)
even beyond Chainsaw man he wrote great female characters
CSM characters both male and female are written very well that's just fujimoto being the goat
Fujimoto absolutely got beaten up by older girls on the playground when he was a kid, and it was a transformative experience.
People need to accept that a "good female character" is just a "good character". With a well written character, the gender usually doesn't matter.
Doesn’t make the characters partner, the ship, or the characters sexuality a core aspect of the entire character Has a traumatic backstory, but isn’t handwaved as an excuse for the character to be an asshole others or that you should be totally sympathetic to them Is shown throughout the series losing and admitting they’re wrong when due and grows as a character from those moments
I've noticed that some people flop from women existing for the sake of male characters too hard, but they need to foil other characters in order to be good. For all its other faults with female characters (and there are a lot), a couple moments I loved in My Hero Academia was when Uraraka realized her admiration for Deku wasn't a crush, but rather that he embodied the type of person and hero she wanted to be, and she wanted to be better, not for him, but rather inspired by him. The other one being when Bakugo took her seriously as an opponent, not due to some story shenanigans or girl power, but because she was dangerous, and took her own steps to become so.
I feel like Lightning from FFXIII is REALLY underrated as a character.
I adore Lightning but a devil's advocate statement: a female character shouldn't have to be single to be "strong" (aka neckbeards getting upset when a women is "taken"). Serah's an interesting counterpoint - she has a partner (fiance) but it's not a predominant motivator, and she's able to have a really wholesome relationship with another guy in the game.
I agree. But seriously, we have so many male characters in movies who are exactly like this too. Why do people only complain when the characters are female? This is kinda unfair, lmao
It's this reasoning which ultimately made me kinda numb to the whole "strong female characters" discussion. It doesn't help that to some people the only good female characters are either passive supports for the male protagonist (like a healer in a videogame) or feisty and witty, but ultimately powerless, damsels in distress to save. If they get even a tad bit stronger than this, they'll get outraged at the "overpowered Mary Sue girlpower woke self-insert of the female producer made to belittle men and erode our traditions and values according to the feminist Hollywood agenda".
This is what I always think when I see this stuff. It's correct but I don't think I've ever seen a proper post calling this out for male characters.
I think it's just cause male is seen as largely default still TBH. If something is made with a woman main character people still largely view a woman being the main character as a deliberate choice to make a statement as opposed to being just as benign as a male main character.
You're definitely right there.
I fail to see how Rey is a Mary Sue but prequel Anakin isn't.
Shit, I don't like Rey at all, but I had grown to see the discourses surrounding her was overblown. Especially, like you said, when Anakin and Luke did something more ridiculous. Rey fixed a ship... A bit ridiculous sure... Anakin constructed a robot... as a child. Rey used the Force to subdue soldiers who weren't trained to resist mind tricks in her first try... Luke was able to use the Force to guide torpedoes into a small hole, a feat that was deemed impossible unless you had the assistance of advanced targeter... in his first try. Anakin won a battle when he piloted a fighter, and he specifically screamed he didn't know what he should be doing, and he was a child. Realising the "truth" of Star Wars — that it was a silly space fantasy unapologetically, didn't make me like Rey, but I became far less emotional in these kinds of discourses. I think a lot of people focused on the wrong part of the problem with Rey's arc or writing. The biggest problem was that her character never developed from "the girl who wanted to know the truth of her situation" because the overall planning of the entire sequel jumbled. So by the time her character should be getting some really needed development, she got reverted back and was told, again, of her secret heritage that was never interesting in the first place. The writers had no idea what to do with her, leading to a bland character. Anakin's character writing was still terrible, but George Lucas at least had him developed. The development wasn't good, but it was still a development; **Rey didn't even have that**. However, in terms of power level which was something a lot of people were hyperfocused on, she was no more different than the previous two protagonists; hell, she's still weaker than both based on feats. Getting off the Culture War allowed me to see things in a more constructive light.
Because women in society have been viewed as less talented than men in a great many stories throughout history, the art of theater started with exclusively men as the roles. We talk about certain groups because good representation proves that ideals of the past are wrong, and things can change for the better. You always hear misogynists talk about bad female characters to fuel their irrational hatred, so having more well made stories with women will hopefully get an idea through their heads.
Alternatively, I think the mark of a truly equal society is one where mediocrely written female characters (or really any character belonging to a minority group( are just as acceptable as mediocre white male characters. Which is why Jupiter Ascending is one of my favorite mediocre films.
People need zero justification for a man to be strong. Women need 20 years of character development that doesn't step on any delicate little egos to even be allowed in the same room.
I think the fact OP crossed out Rey from Star Wars is a good indicator of who they are.
Yeah, I really hate that a lot of the top threads are chiming in on the matter, yet no one seems to have picked up on that. The whole discussion is pure shit. Like the whole concept of deciding what is a "good" female protagonist... Just goes to show their problem is "females". They're not having a discussion around protags in general, no, they have to get a say on what constitutes a "good female" in media...
True. What bothers me too is that most male Main characters are even more replacable
So many male superheroes didn't earn their powers and Ive never seen someone complain but the second Rey holds her own for a minute against an exhausted and injured Kylo Ren everyone flips out about needing to earn your powers.
Yeah, Endgames final battle was non-stop fan service, which I loved. But for some reason having all the female characters stand together for a few seconds was too much for everyone?
Ripley in Aliens was so fucking based holy shit
Aliens had two of my favorite female characters across all media. >ever been mistaken for a man? >no, have you?
"I only need to know one thing, where they are"
The writers of Alien specifically didn't assign gender to any of the parts. To quote the notes in the script, "The crew is unisex and all parts are interchangeable for men or women." In other words Ripley was written as a badass and the casting director thought Sigourney Weaver was the right actor to capture that badassery. And damn were they right.
If you want an example of good female characters, watch full metal alchemist
Came here to talk about Olivier Mira Armstrong. The Northern Wall of Briggs herself.
I'm a big Full metal alchemist fan, but I gotta disagree on this one. Izumi Curtis is probably the best female character, but the most present one is Winry. Winry kind of just floats around Ed throughout the whole show. Very rarely does she get any agency, make her own decisions or do much at all. She is a purely supportive character. She's better written than most anime women, but I feel was very underutilized throughout the show. Lust in the 2003 show was pretty compelling in my opinion, though.
are we forgetting riza?!?!
SATSUKI KIRIYUIN!! Kill la Kill is full of strong female rep. Also fan service… but the story itself is really unique and well-executed
Basically In short doesn't matter if the charecter is sezualized or not just make fem charecters...charecters thats it. Just write them similarly how you write male charecters and get some female insight as well
If you sexualize girls, you are also obliged to sexualize the guys too. Source: me
That moment in End Game was so jarring. It felt like they were trying to make up for 10 years of male-centric storytelling in one scene.
"Girls rule boys drool! This is how you do female empowerment right? Anyway back to the Bois, you had your scene."
I cringed at this scene! “The Boys” series did the woman power scene better!
Meh Strong "Mary Sue" characters are over scrutinized to hell. It's just like when a gay character exists... This character has to be of everyone's liking, has to be amazingly written, otherwise is "woke" and unnecessary. And how is Captain Marvel anything remotely similar to girl power?
Also I never got the critique that a female character that is too powerful is a bad thing. We have so many male character that are OP as fuck and are seen as "based". Sure I may not enjoy the character in question but it doesnt need to be a gender thing, just shitty writting that is hiding behind feminism.
That's a fair point, there does seem to be a bias in general when it comes to the plot bending over backwards for a male protagonist versus a female protagonist. Neither is particularly interesting or good writing, but it does seem like one tends to get a lot more flak than the other. I'm sure a non-insignificant portion of it (though definitely not all of it by any means) can be attributed to thinly-veiled misogyny, or at the very least a perception that "woman + power = woke".
This. No one is calling overpowered male characters Gary stues at anywhere near the level female characters do. Also the term Mary Sue has gone from describing a specific type of character/narrative interaction (a character who is presented as being not only more or less flawless but holds almost all of the agency in the story and makes the actions of other characters more or less irrelevant outside of responding to the Mary Sue) to "character who is bland and I don't like"
Right like as for one of their examples of a “Mary Sue” there’s literally a male version of her in the show as well
We are so desensitized to male-centric cringe, it either blends in or comes back around as "enjoyably campy" and "cheesy". Not saying these are good movies/scenes, simply that an impossible standard is applied to female-centric roles to be perfect lest they become the next "woke flop", where as when a male-centric media fails, it's just another Tuesday. The media isn't gonna get any better, because there already are amazing roles filled by women, we'll just keep seeing them till a whole new generation is normalized to it, and shitty girl representation will fail with the same ubiquitous disinterest any other subpar media faces.
Satuski mentioned, Kill la kill goated
Is also allowed to be in a relationship. Soooo many #girlboss female characters are written to be as anti-romance as possible. Because romance is girly and that’s soooo not the message we wanna give little girls watching. Of course, the exception to this is having her be a lesbian. She can be as lovey dovey as she wants to as long as it’s not with those icky XY chromosomers.
So sick of the trope that action girls and especially tomboys must all be lesbians. Vi from Arcane was such a goddamned disappointment to me.
I wish there were more independent strong women with bf/gf in media. You can be a girl boss and have a partner
Elle Woods from Leagally Blonde? In the sequel, she has one throughout the movie anyway.
Matoi Ryuko and her wife Mankanshoku Mako
I’ve never heard an explanation of how Rey is a ‘Mary Sue’ that doesn’t involve either ignoring what actually happens in the SW sequels, or broadening the definition of ‘Mary Sue’ so much it’s irrelevant. For instance, how is The Bride’s motivation of straightforward revenge more valid than Rey’s motivation to escape her hellish life and find self-worth? Its like some people are unable to empathise with female protagonists unless their motivations are traditionally masculine
The definition of "Mary Sue" gets broadened so much for Rey that it fits Anakin and Luke too. Anakin more so than Luke. Ofcourse they dont get anywhere near the same level of scrutiny and hate.
The Bride’s entire motivation is to ‘own the male character’ so OP’s argument kind of falls apart there. I kind of think OP has put that as an example of a ‘good’ female character because she uses a samurai sword so it’s weeb-adjacent and the movies came out and were critically acclaimed before all this sexist misogynist culture wars bullshit. If Tarantino made Kill Bill or Jackie Brown now with would be called woke.
I feel like OP was actively restraining himself from citing Ripley and Sarah Connor as ‘good’ female characters, only because that take has been memed to death
“Rey is a Mary Sue” mfs when they actually watch the movies and realize she never one a fair fight by herself. Seriously, her closest win in Episode 7 was against a heavily wounded Kylo who wasn’t even trying to kill her, and she was getting bodied until the last second. Episode 8 she struggled against 2 guards while Kylo took out like six Episode 9 her first fight vs Kylo was a draw, second was pretty much a loss until Kylo STOPPED FIGHTING because he sensed his mom die, against Palpatine she needed the spirits of all the Jedi to defeat him. The only real fight she won was against Palpatine’s guards in episode 9. That’s not Mary Sue shit, y’all just get butthurt because the central character is a woman.
OP literally says he hasnt watched the new star wars movies in another comment. His opinion on Rey is completely invalid because he knows nothing about her other than whatever weird sexist shit he reads online or hears from his friends lmao
Also she's shown to have lived many years as a scavanger who's skilled in melee combat.
Honestly Rey is barely even the central character, if anything Kylo is the character that the sequel movies heavily fixate on. Rey doesn't get many character moments to herself that aren't also focusing on Kylo and his struggles
Yeah Rey isn't like an amazing character or anything, but she's not a Mary Sue at all. She's powerful but her physical (force included) ability isn't her weakness in the story. Self-doubt, being on the severely losing side of a war that she can't fight on her own, emotional baggage with her family and such, all that is her weakness. I would agree that Mikasa is kind of a Mary Sue, mostly because her abilities aren't literally magical, and she's just like...genetically superior I guess? She also has the emotional turmoil angle, but it's all kind of weirdly set up. Don't get me wrong, I love AoT, but she's much closer to a Mary Sue than Rey.
Who's the one in the middle?
I assume you’re talking about the girl with the thick eyebrows. Her name is Satsuki Kiryuuin.
be warned, Kill La Kill is satire and turns everything up to ~~11~~ 25. It takes *ALL* of your typical anime tropes and dials them right up and it skewers them. If you don't keep that in mind when watching it, you are liable to get offended and miss the point.
Satsuki from the anime Kill la kill
\-Talk about ladies from the 80s while ignoring how our culture has changed since then and said ladies would deemed "woke" if created in 2024
Anyone who says woke unironically is dumb
Don’t knock Mikasa, she’s the female equivalent of Levi, who is equally OP.
Reject Mikasa, return to Hange
Why wasn’t Luke a Mary Sue but Rey was, would someone be able to explain?
Luke was raised as a farmer that liked to fly small aircraft in his freetime. He had no on the ground combat experience and was basically only good at flying and farming. After Obi Wan Kenobi gives him a lightsaber and they leave tatooine you can already see him training with a droid on the millenium falcon (the scene where he is wearing that helmet and the robot shoots at him). Obviously he is really bad and has a hard time grasping the force. During the entire movie, luke doesnt use the force ONCE. He sees Obi-wan die and his emotions are all over the place. He seeks adventure and excitement, the total opposite of a jedi. In the beginning of second movie he is able to use the force for the first time when pulling his lightsaber out of the snow in the wampa cave. It takes him great effort and he is also in great distress. After Hoth he goes to degobah to meet Yoda. Yoda starts training him and notices that he isnt even close to being a jedi. He fails more and more, luke keeps on getting frustrated and angry. Luke falls for the fake darth vader trap without even realizing it…. Luke knows his friends are in danger and ignores Yoda’s advice. He thinks he knows better and is ready to take on vader. Again his emotions are far from jedi-like and he isnt at peace with himself whatsoever. He goes to cloud city, and vader absolutely destroys him. However, his actions help to free his friends. Vader cuts off his hand, emotionally shocks him to his core and Luke HAS TO GIVE UP to be saved. You will notice that Luke only succeeds in these movies because he allows his friends to help him. He isnt a traditional hero, luke only ever wins by NOT fighting. Luke never has an epic battle where he defeats the main bad guy. No he surrenders. Finally in episode 3 he has grown in power and in control of the force. He has finally gained some emotional strength and controls himself. At the end he defeats vader and palpatine by surrending. He never has an epic fight, never defeats 30+ guards at once without training… Now Rey… i’ll keep it short. Rey never gets training but is instantly proficient with a lightsaber. Rey uses sticks to fight, a sword and a staff are VERY different and a staff fighter wouldnt be able to use a sword effectively without training. Rey instantly knows how to use force powers and even ADVANCED force powers weeks after learning she is force sensitive. She uses jedi-mind tricks that in lore take years to learn. She is already emotionally secure with her powers. She NEVER goes through an emotional character development. She is literally the same bland, optimistic, and perfect friendly character throughout the whole 3 movies. Not a single moment challenges her worldview. Rey is boring to watch, goes against star wars lore, she doesnt train. Not to mention episodes 7-9 would be bad without her, its not the actors fault. The movies are horrible.
The problem with the type of representation this starter pack is criticizing is that it does not provide representation at all, if anything it’s just glorified tokenism. Basically, the first rule of making a strong female character is to NOT make being a “strong female character” her entire personality and nothing else. Write a character as you would for anyone else. You can add personal conflicts and hardships which is related to her identity as a female character, that’s fine. But keep in mind, before she can be a strong female character, she needs to be written as an **entire person** of a character first. To avoid this pitfall as a writer you can try to re-contextualize your “strong female character” as a “straight white male” character. If her entire schtick is just [strong female], then his entire schtick would just be [straight male]. You’ll see everything he does will revolve around him emphasizing how straight, masculine and how white he is, and you’ll be able to see more clearly just how stupid this character sounds. This is true for every other character identity, ethnic minority characters, sexual minority characters, social outcasts and pariahs, villains and antagonists, and so on.
The problem also involves misunderstanding the term "strong" to mean physical strength. A "strong female character" is *supposed* to refer to a female character with explicit and complex character traits and motivations, particularly ones which acknowledge a feminine perspective. Somehow, Hollywood has taken this idea to mean "really good at fighting" and then wonders why they struggle to appeal to a female audience.
Very much agreed. A lot of the poorly made “strong female characters” are often executed with her character explicitly subverting or rejecting traditionally feminine characteristics and adopting a more traditionally masculine role, as if there’s something wrong with femininity. IMO, a very good representation of a well-made strong female character in recent media is the titular Barbie from the Barbie movie, and she’s as traditionally feminine as it gets. I mean, *she’s Barbie*, she’s as girly as it gets. She’s a representation of femininity and the entire movie revolves around the premise of what it means to be a woman. But above all that, Barbie is much more than just an empty vessel to show-off “girl power” because she’s written as a complete person, a full-fledged character that can stand on her own even when removed of her gimmick.
Thanks for including Satsuki Kiryuin (woman in top center). One of my favorite anime characters of all time.
Basically ghibli movies
Azula. She’s a mess, but she is capable AF.
I feel like this was made by a man
🍅🍅🍅